Pope Francis

[LadyMuskie]

Great Pope or Greatest Pope Ever? Discuss!

In all seriousness, as a Catholic woman, I find his views extremely refreshing. I'm not sure that we'll ever see another Jesuit elected Pope because he's daring to venture outside the lines, but during his tenure, I hope he is able to make some headway in changing the crusty, crotchety old white man views of the Vatican that we've seen since Peter. Rome wasn't built in a day, and I realize that saying these things isn't the same as actually making changes in church law, but I'm hopeful that the Church will continue to move in this direction.

[GoMuskies]

I think Francis is very good, and I don't think his shaking things up is a shock to those who elected him. Surely they knew the man pretty well. My only concern (and it may be trivial) is that I hear a lot of non-religious (frankly anti-religious), anti-Catholic folks saying how much they like Francis. That can cut one of two ways, and it's probably a good thing (he's never going to convert these folks, but he's at least improving the Church's relationship with that group). But I can't help but be concerned when that group starts liking a Pope. To use a sports analogy to better express my nagging concern (which I know I am doing a poor job of conveying), when your rival fans start talking about what a great guy your coach is and how you should keep him or her around forever, that's the time to start examining whether you've got the right guy. Because your rivals NEVER want you to have someone who is actually good for you.

Again, just a nagging concern. Everything I read in the news about Francis seems very positive to me.

[LA Muskie]

I was born and raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school from Pre-K through law school (college and law school with the Jesuits). I have to confess that the more educated I became, the harder it was for me to justify SOME of the churches teachings -- particularly as they relate to women and homesexual folk. I am endeared to Pope Francis, as I expected to be. But I am the father of a daughter, and until the Catholic Church stops treating women as 2nd class faithful I will always have a big problem with the Church. I've been going to a Presbyterian Church for 5 years now and have learned that you can have a faith experience equal to or greater than that of the Catholic Church without drawing distinctions between men and women clergy. We have had at least one female pastor throughout those 5 years, and for 3 of those years both of our pastors were women.

[XUFan09]

But women as pastors? Wouldn't their lady hormones get in the way of their jobs?

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[waggy]

OH God, women "pastors". What a crock.

Of shit I mean.

[LadyMuskie]

I think Francis is very good, and I don't think his shaking things up is a shock to those who elected him. Surely they knew the man pretty well. My only concern (and it may be trivial) is that I hear a lot of non-religious (frankly anti-religious), anti-Catholic folks saying how much they like Francis. That can cut one of two ways, and it's probably a good thing (he's never going to convert these folks, but he's at least improving the Church's relationship with that group). But I can't help but be concerned when that group starts liking a Pope. To use a sports analogy to better express my nagging concern (which I know I am doing a poor job of conveying), when your rival fans start talking about what a great guy your coach is and how you should keep him or her around forever, that's the time to start examining whether you've got the right guy. Because your rivals NEVER want you to have someone who is actually good for you.

Again, just a nagging concern. Everything I read in the news about Francis seems very positive to me.

I get what you're saying. I do think, however, that the Catholic Church making even a small move toward better PR will be viewed as positive from those who are anti-Catholic. I think that's what we're seeing as opposed to the Pope's views being anti-Catholic. He's not changing church law, so what he's saying and doing is attempting to change the tide of how Catholics interact in the world and how they're viewed. After the abuse scandals and banking scandals, lack of realistic views on birth control and women, we can use the PR boost.


I was born and raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school from Pre-K through law school (college and law school with the Jesuits). I have to confess that the more educated I became, the harder it was for me to justify SOME of the churches teachings -- particularly as they relate to women and homesexual folk. I am endeared to Pope Francis, as I expected to be. But I am the father of a daughter, and until the Catholic Church stops treating women as 2nd class faithful I will always have a big problem with the Church. I've been going to a Presbyterian Church for 5 years now and have learned that you can have a faith experience equal to or greater than that of the Catholic Church without drawing distinctions between men and women clergy. We have had at least one female pastor throughout those 5 years, and for 3 of those years both of our pastors were women.

As a woman I don't need to have a female role model in order to believe that I, as a female, can do something. Just because a woman hasn't been President yet, doesn't mean I don't think one can be president some day (just so long as her last name isn't Clinton or Palin). So, women not being priests for me has less to do with the fact that my daughter and I can't see a woman on the altar performing mass than it does with the reasoning behind why some feel a woman can't/shouldn't be a priest. The thinking behind no women as priests is practically medieval - women are somehow less godly than men, unclean, less intelligent, too emotional, Peter was a man, etc. It's all nonsense. And at the end of the day, if the Catholic Church chooses to elevate the role of nuns to that of priests in all ways save saying mass, I'd be placated. Women are a great asset to the Church, particularly at the parish level. In the parishes that I've been a member, women are almost always the people who actually make things happen - be it Rosary Altar, funeral and/or wedding preparation, etc.

[LadyMuskie]

But women as pastors? Wouldn't their lady hormones get in the way of their jobs?

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

I'd say our emotions are as likely to get in the way of women doing any job as video game releases are likely to get in the way of men doing their jobs. :tonguewag:

[XUFan09]

I'd say our emotions are as likely to get in the way of women doing any job as video game releases are likely to get in the way of men doing their jobs. :tonguewag:

So, basically...yes?

:-P

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[STL_XUfan]

But women as pastors? Wouldn't their lady hormones get in the way of their jobs?

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Secret video filmed from inside the Vatican



http://youtu.be/tfboOt1bJcA

[Mel Cooley XU'81]

The Holy Spirit is working through Pope Francis. Discuss!

[GoMuskies]

I think anyone who knows anything about the Catholic Church knows that nuns are awesome. Their work probably dwarfs in positive impact the work of all the priests in the world. So there is some positive, completely unintended consequence to the way the Church is operated with respect to gender of the leadership.

[Strange Brew]

crusty, crotchety old white man

Misandry much, someone has issues. :biggrin::biggrin:

[Milhouse]

The talk has been nice but I don't see much changing with the Church. Guess we'll see.

[blobfan]

I think Francis is very good, and I don't think his shaking things up is a shock to those who elected him. Surely they knew the man pretty well. My only concern (and it may be trivial) is that I hear a lot of non-religious (frankly anti-religious), anti-Catholic folks saying how much they like Francis. That can cut one of two ways, and it's probably a good thing (he's never going to convert these folks, but he's at least improving the Church's relationship with that group). But I can't help but be concerned when that group starts liking a Pope. To use a sports analogy to better express my nagging concern (which I know I am doing a poor job of conveying), when your rival fans start talking about what a great guy your coach is and how you should keep him or her around forever, that's the time to start examining whether you've got the right guy. Because your rivals NEVER want you to have someone who is actually good for you.

Again, just a nagging concern. Everything I read in the news about Francis seems very positive to me.

Well, I probably fall in that category. I consider myself a spiritual person who is essentially christian but I don't hold to any church and am generally skeptical of the motivations of leadership. It's exactly because of this that I like Francis. It's not that I have some secret hope that he will tear the church down. It's just nice to see a high level church official WALK THE WALK instead of talking in our direction all the time. I'm not part of the church and I'm sick of that church (any church, not just Catholic) telling me how to live my life when you don't appear to abide by the rules you throw my way.

I don't know if that makes you more or less comfortable. I'm not an enemy of churches. I just don't believe any one of them preaches the 100% truth so I don't attend. I think it's healthy that pope is re-focusing inward.

[xeus]

Remarkably, the liberal media has failed to report on the Pope's comments from this morning. I guess the whole "embrace a culture of life" thing doesn't fit with the agenda of the left.

Culture of Life (http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2584/pope_francis_to_catholic_doctors_bear_witness_to_t he_culture_of_life.aspx#.Ujx5ISR56Vs)

[blobfan]

Remarkably, the liberal media has failed to report on the Pope's comments from this morning. I guess the whole "embrace a culture of life" thing doesn't fit with the agenda of the left.

Culture of Life (http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2584/pope_francis_to_catholic_doctors_bear_witness_to_t he_culture_of_life.aspx#.Ujx5ISR56Vs)

Well, this isn't really news, is it? I mean, if you aren't a Catholic publication, this can be viewed as an old story, oft repeated. Why would the NYT or other publication make special note of this? I do appreciate that he does not focus on the 'thou shalt not' angle of the issue but rather the need to cherish all life. You know, as opposed to the old line of "cherish all life except that of homosexuals and other various people that don't think we are the high holy arbiters of all that is right."

Even when I disagree with this pope, I have to respect the integrity of what I am hearing. Let's be honest: banning abortion won't stop it from happening. You know what has a better chance of stopping abortions? People placing greater value on ALL human life.

[X-band '01]

Remarkably, the liberal media has failed to report on the Pope's comments from this morning. I guess the whole "embrace a culture of life" thing doesn't fit with the agenda of the left.

Culture of Life (http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2584/pope_francis_to_catholic_doctors_bear_witness_to_t he_culture_of_life.aspx#.Ujx5ISR56Vs)

Does CBS not fall under liberal media? They had Cardinal Dolan on CBS This Morning to go over the Pope's comments.

[LA Muskie]

Does CBS not fall under liberal media? They had Cardinal Dolan on CBS This Morning to go over the Pope's comments.

Cardinal Dolan was also on NBC's Today Show this morning and discussed the same thing. Methinks Xeus is reaching...

[American X]

Shocked that Pope Francis believes in and preaches the Catechism of the Church. Nothing that he has said is new or revolutionary. It has been there the entire time.

[LA Muskie]

Shocked that Pope Francis believes in and preaches the Catechism of the Church. Nothing that he has said is new or revolutionary. It has been there the entire time.

Nothing he is saying is new. But the way that he is saying it -- and the fact that he is saying some of it -- is new. It's all in the focus and the nuance, and I think he is playing it splendidly.

[GuyFawkes38]

I prefer to have a sober pope like Benedict instead of the celeb pope styles of John Paul II and Francis. But that's just me.

Notice what's going to happen here. Pro-life Catholics will be attacked by pro-choicers, referring to Francis' words about not focusing too much on abortion (why arent you listening to your leader). ugh.

Can't stand Francis. What a sham. All this talk about humilty. Ha!

[muskienick]

I prefer to have a sober pope like Benedict instead of the celeb pope styles of John Paul II and Francis. But that's just me.

Notice what's going to happen here. Pro-life Catholics will be attacked by pro-choicers, referring to Francis' words about not focusing too much on abortion (why arent you listening to your leader). ugh.

Can't stand Francis. What a sham. All this talk about humilty. Ha!

"Celeb Popes"? Are you kidding me? Since when do celebrities live in relatively humble apartments and drive old, crappy cars or take public transportation? I don't always agree with Pope Francis on every utterance he makes, but I think he sets a damn good example for all Christians.

[GuyFawkes38]

Maybe I'm overreacting.

I have nothing personal against JPII. But I do feel like he neglected some of his administrative duties and focused too much on personal outreach.

Maybe Francis is naive and didn't understand the effects of the interview. But he sold out a core, passionate group and gave its opponents ammo.

[Kahns Krazy]

I can identify with Francis. You can believe in the teachings of the bible and Jesus without getting wound up in telling someone they are sinners in the real world. You can focus on the good without stopping to remind homosexuals that they are going to hell. You can be as spiritual as you want to be, and still embrace anyone else as your neighbor without judging them by your own yardstick. You can fight for an end to abortion without hating those that exercise their current legal rights in this country.

Do your best as a Christian, and don't worry about the what others are doing that you may not agree with. In readers digest form, I think this is called "don't sweat the small stuff".

[X-band '01]

Guy, I don't think what Francis is teaching is different fundamentally; his approach and his points of emphasis are a 180 from recent papacies.

It's certainly not a "my way or the Capital Beltway" mentality that we're seeing on a daily basis in Washington from our elected officials.

[GuyFawkes38]

Guy, I don't think what Francis is teaching is different fundamentally; his approach and his points of emphasis are a 180 from recent papacies.


There is no doctrinal difference. But even the smallest change in tone has far reaching effects. That's why Benedict and JPII were appropriately guarded with their language and tone. Francis is less guarded.

[xeus]

Cardinal Dolan was also on NBC's Today Show this morning and discussed the same thing. Methinks Xeus is reaching...

First, please don't use the word "methinks". It's stupid.

Second, the comments of the Pope's that I was referring to were made this morning to the International Federation of Medical Associations. He said, among other things, “bear witness to and disseminate this ‘culture of life’ … remind all, through actions and words, that in all its phases and at any age, life is always sacred and always of quality. And not as a matter of faith, but of reason and science! There is no human life more sacred than another, just as there exists no human life qualitatively more meaningful than another”.

That is not what Cardinal Dolan was discussing this morning, because the media won't cover a story in which the Pope speaks out against abortion, even as they trip over themselves to report (with smug hyperbole) his comments from earlier in the week.

[BandAid]

I too am a big fan of Francis - as I was of JPII and Benedict (the only Popes I've been alive during their pontificate).

But he really isn't saying anything different. He does provide soundbites on different aspects that his predecessors didn't. For example: the theology on women that Francis has proposed is really a continuation of JPII's work Mulieris Dignitatem.

That being said, I'm not a big fan of trying to fit the Church and her teachings into the framework of American political thought, which is all it seems our news outlets are capable of doing.

I saw an article a while back on Archbishop Gomez of Los Angeles. The entire thing was about whether or not he was liberal or conservative. He is against gay marriage, but he is pro-immigration. He is against abortion, but he is big on taking care of the poor.

Here's the rub: he's not a politician, but everyone wants to use him to advance their agenda.

[GoMuskies]

I saw an article a while back on Archbishop Gomez of Los Angeles. The entire thing was about whether or not he was liberal or conservative. He is against gay marriage, but he is pro-immigration. He is against abortion, but he is big on taking care of the poor.

Here's the rub: he's not a politician, but everyone wants to use him to advance their agenda.

This is why Catholics are basically split 50/50 between Democrats and Republican voters. The Church clearly pushes ideas that are on both sides of the political spectrum, and Catholic voters essentially vote based on which of those issues are most important to them. Clearly quite different from fundamentalists.

[xeus]

To "sirthought" who neg repped me and called me a jackass, claiming 1) the Pope's comments were reported all over, and 2) most media is neutral...

First - don't be the kind of douchebag who neg reps comments simply because you disagree with them. That's like taking a walk in softball.

Second - read the link I included in my post, then come back here and tell me the Pope's anti-abortion, pro-life message from this morning was widely reported.

[Cheesehead]

I find Francis to be breath of fresh air. That is all.

[LA Muskie]

First, please don't use the word "methinks". It's stupid.
Not exactly contributing meaningful commentary with statements like that...


That is not what Cardinal Dolan was discussing this morning, because the media won't cover a story in which the Pope speaks out against abortion, even as they trip over themselves to report (with smug hyperbole) his comments from earlier in the week.
I think the problem is that the Pope being anti-abortion is not news. Even for Pope Francis. He's not changing the dogma. He's changing the focus. He's not saying that abortion is now OK. He's just saying that rather than condemn the sinners, we should love and support them just as Jesus would (and does). He is saying that love and support are better ways to reduce the sin in our world than merely condemning the sinners (which we all are).

[muskienick]

There is no doctrinal difference. But even the smallest change in tone has far reaching effects. That's why Benedict and JPII were appropriately guarded with their language and tone. Francis is less guarded.

As a Catholic, I sincerely hope his "change in tone" brings about "far reaching effects" within the Church and beyond! It has been far too long a time since we have had a Pope who wants to concentrate on what Christ modeled for us in his three public years on Earth. In His "Gospel Years" Christ concentrated on preaching love of others; treating others as we would have them treat us; feeding the hungry; having his Apostles and Disciples divest themselves of their wealth; and forgiving others of their offenses, even against himself as he died on the Cross. There is precious little fire and brimstone from Christ in the New Testament. Even when Christ became angry, it was generally aimed at those who were money-grabbing or holier-than-thou hypocrites.

Francis is the type of Pope who would have visited people in far-away places in days of yore by getting there on the back of a donkey. Once there, he would not stay in the luxury inn but in the humble home of one of the people who listened to him teach in the countryside.

In other words, Pope Francis is trying his best to bring people INTO the Church rather than continually suggesting to them that they are not worthy of Christ's love and forgiveness.

I LIKE IT!

A LOT!

[GuyFawkes38]

Muskienick, maybe I lashed out at Francis too harshly. After Benedict, the Church needed a more dynamic leader. Francis is certainly that.

I'm still a bit shocked at Francis' statement regarding abortion. If there's one thing that religious conservatives are unfairly criticized for, it’s that they are too focused on abortion and do not feel compassion for the women involved. From the interview, Francis sounds like he’s in agreement with the criticism.

The prolife movement in the US has been a resounding success through hard work and passion. There has been a shift in opinion regarding abortion. Even most far left liberals do not regard abortion as a morally neutral act anymore. Francis took a violent jab at the prolife movement by being in agreement with its critics. It was a crappy, reckless move. Ugh.

[mohr5150]

So, Xeus, do you think his comments of respecting all human life includes those on death row? Or do you think that Pope Francis, like many on the right side of things, thinks its horrible to kill a fetus but would be happy to get in line to throw the switch on those who are wrongdoers? I am of the camp that the Pope is against all killing, which is the true teaching of the Church and our Lord Jesus Christ. "He who is without sin cast the first stone," I believe were Jesus' words, and as guilty as the left is of not living by this word through their support of abortion rights, the right is just as guilty in their support of the death penalty and unjust wars. I think Pope Francis is calling us all to task to begin to respect each other from conception to natural death for all.

[Strange Brew]

So, Xeus, do you think his comments of respecting all human life includes those on death row? Or do you think that Pope Francis, like many on the right side of things, thinks its horrible to kill a fetus but would be happy to get in line to throw the switch on those who are wrongdoers? I am of the camp that the Pope is against all killing, which is the true teaching of the Church and our Lord Jesus Christ. "He who is without sin cast the first stone," I believe were Jesus' words, and as guilty as the left is of not living by this word through their support of abortion rights, the right is just as guilty in their support of the death penalty and unjust wars. I think Pope Francis is calling us all to task to begin to respect each other from conception to natural death for all.

Um, l lean right and I'd like to know what unjust war you're referring to. If it's Iraq, the governing body was in violation of the Gulf War peace treaty (jets in no fly zones and developing mid range missiles), multiple UN resolutions and the Congress approved military action (use of force, would've preferred a full declaration of war but that Congress was full of pansies). So, If you're talking about Iraq, please explain the lack of justification. And as you do, please remember that regime gassed its own people and actually tortured people to the point that waterboarding would be a considered tickle torture.

[mohr5150]

Um, l lean right and I'd like to know what unjust war you're referring to. If it's Iraq, the governing body was in violation of the Gulf War peace treaty (jets in no fly zones and developing mid range missiles), multiple UN resolutions and the Congress approved military action (use of force, would've preferred a full declaration of war but that Congress was full of pansies). So, If you're talking about Iraq, please explain the lack of justification. And as you do, please remember that regime gassed its own people and actually tortured people to the point that waterboarding would be a considered tickle torture.

If I remember correctly, our own Pope at that time, Pope John Paul II, called it an unjust war and gave W a tongue lashing when they met face to face after it was declared. That's what I'm talking about. There are countries all over this planet that treat their people like crap. We sleep with many of them (China being one of these countries), and there are many others we turn a blind eye to. We all know why we got involved in Iraq and it doesn't have anything at all to do with how they were treating their people.

[Strange Brew]

If I remember correctly, our own Pope at that time, Pope John Paul II, called it an unjust war and gave W a tongue lashing when they met face to face after it was declared. That's what I'm talking about. There are countries all over this planet that treat their people like crap. We sleep with many of them (China being one of these countries), and there are many others we turn a blind eye to. We all know why we got involved in Iraq and it doesn't have anything at all to do with how they were treating their people.

fair enough Mohr since you're arguing on religious and not political terms. Oh wait, you did make it political by commenting on those on "right side of things". Please don't hide your true agenda behind the cloth.

[mohr5150]

I don't believe at all I made it political. Xeus did. He was bitching about the lefties in the news not reporting about some comments Pope Francis made because it had to do with life issues, and I was replying that it very well could be those on the right also due to how some of their beliefs don't follow the true teachings of of the Church. That was all. You attempted to prove that the war in Iraq was a just war, I proved you wrong because the leader of our faith said it wasn't, and that's the end of the story. I don't try to hide any agenda behind any cloth. My agenda is to try to treat all people with respect and to appreciate their lives from conception to natural death, with the exception of all Cardinals fans, Bearcat fans, Dayton fans, Buckeye fans, Yankee fans, and Miami Hurricane fans:)

[Strange Brew]

Ok mohr, you and I will disagree on the difference between the meaning of the terms just and moral. However, we seem to agree that life is sacred and the Cards, Flyers, Suck Nuts, and the Hurricanes are sub-human refuse that are in immediate need of liquidation.

AND, that Clifton is the black hole of suck. No matter how much it pulls in, it will keep pulling more suck past its event horizon.

[Mel Cooley XU'81]

Here's the link to the interview.

Worth reading and re-reading.

http://www.americamagazine.org/pope-interview

GuyFawkes38, have a look. You'll rest easier.

Peace and prayers,