Dez Wells sues Xavier.

[XU 87]

Isn't it just physical manifestation of the emotional distress? Like if he could show that he threw up a time or two as a result of the distress, wouldn't that get him over the physical manifestation hurdle? It's been a long time since I've spent much time with tort law, though.

It has to be an intentional act against you if you suffer no personal injury. Negligent infliction is if a parent witnesses something happen to a child (you see your kid get hit by car). But if you don't witness the event, no emotional distress, no matter how much distress you may have.

[BandAid]

I'm just picking this one. Lab evidence can not confirm that sexual assault did or did not occur. It is possible for rough, consensual sex to look like assault and it is possible for an assault to not result in physical evidence. Either side may interpret those results, but lab test cannot confirm anything one way or another.

Especially considering the sex was consensual with the exception of the lack of condom use.

EDIT: MOR beat me to it

[Masterofreality]

XU2011,
Its not worth your time. He/she is a fool. I suggest the ignore feature. It works out wonderfully except when posters quote him/her.
#TEAMDEZ #FREEDEZ

Gladden, I love ya man, but what the hell is your end game here?

I guess to satisfy you, the following has to happen:

Xavier settles and has to pay millions. Graham is fired, but XU is impoverished. Assistant Coaches leave because of low pay. Mack leaves because they can't give him a raise. Charters stop because the school can't afford them. Fans stop coming. Donors stop donating. The program is toast.

Yep, old' Dez is freed...which he already is at Maryland. Dez lawyers get tons of dough on their contingency. Graham is gone but the new XU Prez is presiding over a scorched earth. Done, Finis'.

Yep, just what you want, right? All because a guy didn't wrap his johnson and lied about it. Sounds like a perfect outcome.

W........T..........F?

[DfinnsDog10]

Yep. I'm just going to go right along with a poster with the name of "DFinnsDog10". Nothing but positive Xavier connotations in that name.

Well, here are the facts. Shiverdecker went to Capital, not Xavier. Yes, his firm does have Xavier season tickets. The firm does not have a suite. I would guess, although I don't know, that Shiverdecker's firm also has SucKS season tickets. However, in looking at the Annual Xavier Financial Reports list of donors going back to 2008, Shiverdecker's name appears NOWHERE. Repeat, NO-WHERE. Not in the 1831 or Father Finn Societies. Not in any of the "Gifts and Grants" lists. NOWHERE.....and the list is very long and extensive.

That would not seem to me to be a "huge Xavier supporter". Just want to make sure that everyone "is aware" of that.

Hmmmmmmm.


Oh no my name has a negative connotation on a forum? It's a joke. Thanks for taking the time to look up all those useless facts. Huge wasn't the right word, he is a supporter and if you knew anything about him, he isn't out looking for attention. I apologize.

[XU 87]

If you recall the well documented series of events as recounted last year, there would be no "lab tests" or "medical examination" that would indicate sexual assault. Without going into all the details, the girl asked Dez if he wrapped up, twice. He said yes...twice. Then he unprotectively spewed. There was sex, but under false assumptions. She freaked and felt assaulted because she was lied to...twice. Under the Deters' legal definition of sexual assault, it wouldn't reach that level, but it did under the Code of Conduct.



I know that was the allegation. But how could she not know? As one person once wrote, "Did Dez turn away and then made fake tearing and crinkling noises to fool her"?

[Masterofreality]

Oh no my name has a negative connotation on a forum? It's a joke. Thanks for taking the time to look up all those useless facts. Huge wasn't the right word, he is a supporter and if you knew anything about him, he isn't out looking for attention. I apologize.

Pray tell where he "supports". I don't have this year's list of season renewals, but '87 indicates that Shiverdecker has now even given the seats up too.

I don't know Shiverdecker and whether he seeks attention or not, but his co-counsel Ginsberg has been banned in certain jurisdictions and his suit on behalf of Vilma was dismissed out of hand. His suit on behalf of Vijay Singh probably will be dismissed out of hand. his record is sketchy and his rep is that of a headline hound.

Useless facts? No, you out and out lied and got caught. Nice try, troll.

[XU2011]

Your argument is that they mismanaged it by court of law standards. Standards they are not subjected to.

You might not like it, but good luck finding a school anywhere in the country that operates in a way you and Dez's camp thinks it should.

So what "standards" is Xavier subjected to? I know due to woeful mismanagement of past sexual assault cases, Graham had recently signed an agreement with the federal government (I don't know the specifics of what that agreement entailed). Are there special "standards" Xavier must abide by due to that agreement?

I would be interested to see what "standards" dictate that the accuser is allowed multiple character witnesses, but the accused is denied any. I would be interested to see what "standards" dictate that any medical examination or scientific evidence that conclusively state no sexual assault occured is not allowed to be part of the University's hearings. I would be interested to see what "standards" dictate that the University doesn't have to determine who has the burden of proof. I would be interested to see what "standards" dictate the University send the accused a letter informing him of his explusion due to rape.

You're saying Xavier HAD to handle in this fashion because of the "standards" they are subjected too. So, what actual standards are they subjected to, and are the above actions/decisions due to what the "standards" say.

[DC Muskie]

So what "standards" is Xavier subjected to? I know due to woeful mismanagement of past sexual assault cases, Graham had recently signed an agreement with the federal government (I don't know the specifics of what that agreement entailed). Are there special "standards" Xavier must abide by due to that agreement?

I would be interested to see what "standards" dictate that the accuser is allowed multiple character witnesses, but the accused is denied any. I would be interested to see what "standards" dictate that any medical examination or scientific evidence that conclusively state no sexual assault occured is not allowed to be part of the University's hearings. I would be interested to see what "standards" dictate that the University doesn't have to determine who has the burden of proof. I would be interested to see what "standards" dictate the University send the accused a letter informing him of his explusion due to rape.

You're saying Xavier HAD to handle in this fashion because of the "standards" they are subjected too. So, what actual standards are they subjected to, and are the above actions/decisions due to what the "standards" say.

I suggest you read Xavier's Code of Conduct that outlines everything. Then pick out any school in the country and reads theirs as well. Then go back and read what others have answered regarding your concerns about admittance of evidence.

Have a good night brother. I'm going to bed.

[XU 87]

Please stop quoting the allegations in the lawsuit as the gospel truth.

[DC Muskie]

I know that was the allegation. But how could she not know? As one person once wrote, "Did Dez turn away and then made fake tearing and crinkling noises to fool her"?

I find this imagine pretty damn funny. I'm going to have to try it.

[XU2011]

I'll say this again. Never, ever, ever take statements contained in a lawsuit as the gospel truth.

And I'll say this again- you are assuming that X was making its own independent decisions as to how to handle this case. I doubt that was the case.

I agree that the process was unfair. But I blame the rules X was required to operate under. I really don't think X was out to get Wells.

I'm not taking them as gospel truth. But the issues I bring up are not an interpretation of what happened or an opinion, but rather a statement that can be either unarguably confirmed or unarguably determined to be false. They can do that because they aren't interpretations or perceptions or opinions. But rather actual occurences that can either be confirmed or proven never happened.

If Xavier was not making its own independent decision on how to handle this case, who in hell was? And why were they?

And what "rules" were Xavier required to operate under? What set of "rules" allow only the accuser to have character witnesses but disallow the accused to have any? What set of rules require Xavier to exclude any scientific or medical evidence that conclude no sexual assault occured? What set of rules require Xavier to not determine or disclose who has burden of proof? What set of rules requires Xavier to send a student a letter expelling him due to "rape" when there isn't no evidence to prove that?

[Charlesbt4]

I understand a lot of people on this board think Xavier can do no wrong.

I just hope it never happens to your kid or a family member or friend.

Accused of sexual assault. The medical examination said nothing occured, the lab tests say no sexual assault took place, as well as the district attorney, grand jury (and in this case, essentially, NCAA). Xavier will not let any evidence in that states no sexual assault occured. Won't tell you who has the burden of proof. Let's your accuser have multiple character witnesses testify for him/her, refuses to let you have any. Gives you a single advisor that has NEVER through the process before to guide you. The sends you a letter that you are expelled for "rape." Then a campus minister denies your appeal 2 days later.

How would you react if that fact pattern happened to you, or a loved one or friend? I know I would not be acting all that different from Dez.

As I indicated in earlier posts, I believe this to be spot on.

[paulxu]

What set of rules requires Xavier to send a student a letter expelling him due to "rape" when there isn't no evidence to prove that?

Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen this letter?

BTW, you never responded to the page 1 lawsuit "fact" that Xavier defamed Wells by publicly proclaiming him guilty of rape; I've yet to see where that occurred.

[XU 87]

I'm not taking them as gospel truth.

And what "rules" were Xavier required to operate under? What set of "rules" allow only the accuser to have character witnesses but disallow the accused to have any? What set of rules require Xavier to exclude any scientific or medical evidence that conclude no sexual assault occured? What set of rules require Xavier to not determine or disclose who has burden of proof? What set of rules requires Xavier to send a student a letter expelling him due to "rape" when there isn't no evidence to prove that?

You are accepting as fact allegations in a lawsuit- she used character witnesses, he couldn't- he had the burden of proof etc. Just look at your second paragraph. I suspect that what they are claiming isn't exactly true. It's their slanted interpretation of what occurred.

[Charlesbt4]

Your argument is that they mismanaged it by court of law standards. Standards they are not subjected to.

You might not like it, but good luck finding a school anywhere in the country that operates in a way you and Dez's camp thinks it should.

If they aren't subject to standards used in a court of law, why do they use standards used in a court of law ("preponderance of the evidence") to determine the outcome of cases? Also, if you tell me that Wells' case was subject to a higher standard in a court of law, as it was a criminal matter, I'll respond by telling you that a grand jury uses the equivalent to a "preponderance of the evidence" standard in determining whether there is sufficient evidence for a case to go to trial. Essentially, that means that using the same evidentiary standards, a court of law decided there wasn't even sufficient evidence in this case to warrant a trial, while Xavier's Kangaroo Court decided Wells was guilty of rape.

Get some.

[Muskie]

If they aren't subject to standards used in a court of law, why do they use standards used in a court of law ("preponderance of the evidence") to determine the outcome of cases? Also, if you tell me that Wells' case was subject to a higher standard in a court of law, as it was a criminal matter, I'll respond by telling you that a grand jury uses the equivalent to a "preponderance of the evidence" standard in determining whether there is sufficient evidence for a case to go to trial. Essentially, that means that using the same evidentiary standards, a court of law decided there wasn't even sufficient evidence in this case to warrant a trial, while Xavier's Kangaroo Court decided Wells was guilty of rape.

Get some.

Was the same evidence presented to the grand jury as was presented to the Conduct Board? if not, that could explain the different decisions.

[Kahns Krazy]

Can Dez go after Time Warner Cable and this Showtime bullshit? I am tired of this shit.

[TapsPlunkett]

How come all of the Graham backers claim that Joe Deters and the Hamilton County Grand Jury have no right to tell Xavier and their Conduct board how to operate can then turn around and say, in the same sentence, that the Federal government was forcing Xavier's hand? One government agency can be involved and one can't?

[paulxu]

Was the same evidence presented to the grand jury as was presented to the Conduct Board? if not, that could explain the different decisions.

I remember that being some bone of contention back then with a statement by Deter or something.
But if the girl refused to press charges, maybe she didn't go before the grand jury...but did go before the Conduct Board.

[waggy]

How come all of the Graham backers claim that Joe Deters and the Hamilton County Grand Jury have no right to tell Xavier and their Conduct board how to operate can then turn around and say, in the same sentence, that the Federal government was forcing Xavier's hand? One government agency can be involved and one can't?


Yes.

[XU 87]

How come all of the Graham backers claim that Joe Deters and the Hamilton County Grand Jury have no right to tell Xavier and their Conduct board how to operate can then turn around and say, in the same sentence, that the Federal government was forcing Xavier's hand? One government agency can be involved and one can't?

Because the federal government had jurisdiction to oversee this matter and the authority to tell Xavier how the matter should be handled. Joe Deters did not.

[TapsPlunkett]

So by your explanation, the federal government told X to expell Dez? right...

[XU 87]

No, I never said that. I think the federal government told Xavier how the process would be conducted.

In short, Dez should be blaming the federal government and its rules much more than Xavier.

[Seven Eighths]

No, I never said that. I think the federal government told Xavier how the process would be conducted.

In short, Dez should be blaming the federal government and its rules much more than Xavier.

This may have already been said, but he should be suing the girl that cried rape and then recanted. That bell cannot be unrung.

[Charlesbt4]

No, I never said that. I think the federal government told Xavier how the process would be conducted.

In short, Dez should be blaming the federal government and its rules much more than Xavier.

The operative words being "I think." That is all speculation.

[Charlesbt4]

I remember that being some bone of contention back then with a statement by Deter or something.
But if the girl refused to press charges, maybe she didn't go before the grand jury...but did go before the Conduct Board.

Initially, Xavier alleged that they had and considered evidence that the court system did not. Then, they changed their tune when they realized that withholding evidence from the court system would potentially constitute obstruction of justice.

[TapsPlunkett]

No, I never said that. I think the federal government told Xavier how the process would be conducted.

In short, Dez should be blaming the federal government and its rules much more than Xavier.

So you think the government told Xavier how to conduct the process? The federal government was OK with a lack of due process, no right to face his accuser, the inability to call witnesses, no rights to appeal, no physical evidence?

[Nigel Tufnel]

Would be interested to know your thoughts on this Nigel, but my initial thoughts would be that the defamation/libel is complete BS and the arbitration stuff makes no sense to me, but they might have a foothold on the breach of contract issue to get into discovery.

Been busy at work but saw your post and wanted to respond. I've read through this entire thread...wow...brutal. These are my thoughts, Dana. First off, full disclosure...I went through something similar to this while at X. Except fortunately, the victim's account was so ridiculous, that I was cleared. Of course, I didn't get off unscathed. I was placed on a probation for a year for having "sex without love." The victim was not sanctioned because, while being underage, it was determined that apparently she was too drunk (she wasn't) to be sanctioned. My dealings with Couch were horrible. I hate the man. He can rot in hell. It was the worst experience of my life. For 2 years, the victim told any girl I was dating that I was a rapist. I had people talking behind my back. I had professors treat me differently after it happened because the victim would tell them I raped her. I got lower grades from professors for work that would have gotten me an "A" before the incident occurred. It sucked...and I got completely exonerated...except for having "sex without love." So this stuff hits pretty close to home for me. On a side note, the victim went on to accuse 2 other guys of raping her. By the time I was in my last year at X, I had quite a few people walk up to me and apologize. To be honest, it didn't really help.

So this whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. However, if I put aside my personal prejudices and try to view this through lawyer glasses, I don't see a lot of legal merit in the case with one exception. Its allegation No. 34 in the Complaint. To paraphrase, it says that the Board was "required" to have training in these types of cases. I would like to know what type of training was required and if all the members of the Board met the requirements. I would think that would be an important issue. If what Waggy posted is right and the Board can be a bunch of chimpanzees, that's a pretty frightening thought. However, if X put requirements in place for the Board, and those requirements weren't met, then I could see that being an issue based on the importance of the subject matter (rape/sexual assault). Why impose requirements on such an important issue on your University and then not even meet the requirements you put in place? I would guess those requirements were put in place to protect the students. It would be hard to argue that you acted within your own policies if none, or not all, of the Board members met your self imposed requirements.

My opinion? I do think it settles. And it will settle under seal. And Dez backers will think he was redeemed because they settled. And X Admin backers will think they won because they didn't apologize publicly. And neither side will be able to convince the other side even though there are 75 pages of argument on the issue.

[XUFan09]

Was the same evidence presented to the grand jury as was presented to the Conduct Board? if not, that could explain the different decisions.

Also, two distinct bodies could simply come to different conclusions. That obviously happens from time to time.

Overall, I hate that universities try to keep rape allegations a hush-hush internal matter, and frankly their attempts to keep it quiet are more likely to benefit potential perpetrators than potential victims. Just in this case, the opposite occurred, possibly because of pressure after the federal investigation, but I had a friend get screwed over a la Wells (on even more dubious allegations) long before the feds started looking more closely at Xavier. There doesn't need to be added pressure for these systems to sometimes find an innocent person guilty. Hell, our legal court systems find innocent men guilty of rape sometimes and put them away for years or even decades before evidence surfaces that clears them.

[Nigel Tufnel]

To put it in a manner of where "what if this happened to your kid," well if I had a kid who was stupid enough to mess around with a crazy broad, then crazy stuff is bound to happen.


I'm sorry...but I had to comment. You obviously don't have children. This statement is bullshit. Go ahead and bash me, cuss me out and tell me how wrong I am....but you are wrong. If you do have kids and you feel this way, then you shouldn't have had kids.

And reply however you wish, but I'm not going to spend the next 3 days arguing with you over this issue.

[Strange Brew]

My dealings with Couch were horrible. I hate the man. He can rot in hell.

Hoped to stay out this but I couldn't agree more. I too was hauled in front of that "court" (for a party that never happened but our Norwood neighbors swore to to XU was horrific). We were able to present our case but like Wells we were not allowed to have counsel present or call witnesses. When something as serious as expulsion can be added to your record perilously close to applying for your first professional job, basketball or otherwise, the burden of proof should ALWAYS rest on the accuser and the accused should be provided the appropriate tools to defend against the charge. Xavier's "justice" system is a joke and is setup to protect the "U" from exposure to liability instead of the best interest of the students providing an ever expanding revenue source, errr I mean the students they are on a mission to cultivate into cough, cough, "men and women for others"

[MaurerHigh]

My thoughts on 99% of the posts in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

[Masterofreality]

To paraphrase, it says that the Board was "required" to have training in these types of cases. I would like to know what type of training was required and if all the members of the Board met the requirements. I would think that would be an important issue. If what Waggy posted is right and the Board can be a bunch of chimpanzees, that's a pretty frightening thought. However, if X put requirements in place for the Board, and those requirements weren't met, then I could see that being an issue based on the importance of the subject matter (rape/sexual assault). Why impose requirements on such an important issue on your University and then not even meet the requirements you put in place? I would guess those requirements were put in place to protect students.

Good post Nigel. On the above, there are students on this Board, I assume, for balance. No way could 20-22 year old kids ever have enough "training" at that point in their lives. So the real question I have is, how much "training" is enough? Students are already going to class. How could they ever have enough instruction to be considered "qualified"?

While this is Amurrrica, and anyone can sue over anything, I still don't see the standing of a suit against a private institution who made a ruling based upon it's own Code of Conduct, and never publically stated what the violation was. It was publicized later, but not from Xavier's doing. If anything, as Kahn's pointed out earlier, the fact that Dez waived the confidentiality agreement to "clear his name" in the Hamilton County court is what brought the details to light.

Now he's suing to clear his name from an action that he himself precipitated in all respects? Just don't get it.

[DC Muskie]

I'm sorry...but I had to comment. You obviously don't have children. This statement is bullshit. Go ahead and bash me, cuss me out and tell me how wrong I am....but you are wrong. If you do have kids and you feel this way, then you shouldn't have had kids.

And reply however you wish, but I'm not going to spend the next 3 days arguing with you over this issue.

Oh thank you for allowing me to respond, kind sir! So thoughtful. You must be a parent based on that type of kindness!

The response that since I don't have kids I can't possibly imagine is total bullshit.

Nothing is more aggravating when people who have kids telling people who don't have kids they don't know what they are talking about.

And you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself for stating that I shouldn't have kids. That is completely uncalled for.

The idea that my emotions would be different if it happens to my kid is complete conjecture. In my years of dealing with the conduct board while I was at school I never met one student who liked the process or thought it was fair after they were found in the wrong. Not one. I'm sure there are people who are convicted in court who think the same way about that system.

I would most definitely teach my kid to think about the consequences of his or her actions. How about since we are playing the conjecture game, my kid would never BE in this situation. So there. I would never have to worry about it, because it would never happen.

The entire line of thinking you and 2011 have on this is utter bullshit. Sorry if you disagree.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Oh thank you for allowing me to respond, kind sir! So thoughtful. You must be a parent based on that type of kindness!

The response that since I don't have kids I can't possibly imagine is total bullshit.

Nothing is more aggravating when people who have kids telling people who don't have kids they don't know what they are talking about.

And you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself for stating that I shouldn't have kids. That is completely uncalled for.

The idea that my emotions would be different if it happens to my kid is complete conjecture. In my years of dealing with the conduct board while I was at school I never met one student who liked the process or thought it was fair after they were found in the wrong. Not one. I'm sure there are people who are convicted in court who think the same way about that system.

I would most definitely teach my kid to think about the consequences of his or her actions. How about since we are playing the conjecture game, my kid would never BE in this situation. So there. I would never have to worry about it, because it would never happen.

The entire line of thinking you and 2011 have on this is utter bullshit. Sorry if you disagree.


HAHAHAHA!! Ignorance is bliss...bask in it!!

[DC Muskie]

HAHAHAHA!! Ignorance is bliss...bask in it!!

Oh look who responded! Without a real response. Shocking!

Seriously you have no idea what you are talking about. None. Zip.

Anyone can have a kid, that's not a huge accomplishment. The argument that I would feel differently about Dez if I had a kid in the same position is a round about way to take the side of Dez.

But you can't see that. You think you're a special kind of person, simply because you have kids. No objective outlook on anything, I'm a parent Damn It!

Just stop. You're not special, you don't have any special insight and you are certainly not an expert on who should have kids and who shouldn't.

[Kahns Krazy]

You know who else could have had a kid? The woman that got surprise skin-dicked.

[GoMuskies]

I'm a special kind of person. AND I have kids. I think Snipe would have tried to prevent that in the name of eugenics.

[GoMuskies]

I do think the notion that you have to just bend over and take it if you get dicked over by a bullshit process is silly, though. If something like this happened to me (making the large leap that Dez was ACTUALLY wronged), I'm pretty sure I'd have sued them like a gold-digging bitch as well.

[DC Muskie]

I do think the notion that you have to just bend over and take it if you get dicked over by a bullshit process is silly, though. If something like this happened to me (making the large leap that Dez was ACTUALLY wronged), I'm pretty sure I'd have sued them like a gold-digging bitch as well.

Like I said, no one who ever goes through a process and is found wrong is going to like it. If I went through it and it prevented me from moving forward in earning a degree and a living I would sure as shit sue and get my gold. I need that gold to move forward. I need that expulsion overturned because presumably no other school would take me.

But it looks like Dez is doing fine with getting a degree and earning a living. The gold part here that he is digging for makes him a bitch.

[STL_XUfan]

So Dez went to Xavier relying on a promise that there would be some sort of protective device in place to minimize his risk. It wasn't until the conclusion of the act that he discovered he was lied to and that the protective device wasn't used. God, that must suck to be violated like that....

[Nigel Tufnel]

Oh look who responded! Without a real response. Shocking!

Seriously you have no idea what you are talking about. None. Zip.

Anyone can have a kid, that's not a huge accomplishment. The argument that I would feel differently about Dez if I had a kid in the same position is a round about way to take the side of Dez.

But you can't see that. You think you're a special kind of person, simply because you have kids. No objective outlook on anything, I'm a parent Damn It!

Just stop. You're not special, you don't have any special insight and you are certainly not an expert on who should have kids and who shouldn't.

I said I wasn't going to argue with you about this. And I'm not. That doesn't mean I can't be amused by your ignorance.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Good post Nigel. On the above, there are students on this Board, I assume, for balance. No way could 20-22 year old kids ever have enough "training" at that point in their lives. So the real question I have is, how much "training" is enough? Students are already going to class. How could they ever have enough instruction to be considered "qualified"?

While this is Amurrrica, and anyone can sue over anything, I still don't see the standing of a suit against a private institution who made a ruling based upon it's own Code of Conduct, and never publically stated what the violation was. It was publicized later, but not from Xavier's doing. If anything, as Kahn's pointed out earlier, the fact that Dez waived the confidentiality agreement to "clear his name" in the Hamilton County court is what brought the details to light.

Now he's suing to clear his name from an action that he himself precipitated in all respects? Just don't get it.

Agreed. That's why I'm curious as to the requirements. What are they? Were they adhered to? If not, why? It doesn't seem wise to me to self impose requirements on the Board and then not follow them.

[muskiefan82]

I have a question. It may have been asked over the past 30+ pages, but if the woman was an RA over the dorm that Mr. Wells resided in, what was the punishment or decision regarding her engaging in activities with those under her charge?

Was this ever addressed or is it a non-issue?

[Masterofreality]

You know who else could have had a kid? The woman that got surprise skin-dicked.

Uh, yeah. This.

[Muskie1000]

Oh Yay, page 30.

[paulxu]

Ya'll need to adjust your settings. I'm only on page 8.

I would like to point out that we were doing pretty damn good with no G Effect threads, until this mess came along.

[SemajParlor]

Wow, just read every post.

Shout out to XU2011. Agree with just about every post you made.

[Kahns Krazy]

If there is a broken process and this lawsuit results in it being fixed, that would be one potential positive.

I tend to think that a private university or private organization of any kind can reserve the right to kick out whoever for whatever reason they want, based on whatever evidence or no evidence whatsoever, at their discretion. I think those who get kicked out have the right to be displeased with the decision, and be vocal about it, and others can draw their own conclusions about it.

If the school is doing a disservice to itself by relying on a process that doesn't serve its objective, then they should fix it.

[DC Muskie]

I said I wasn't going to argue with you about this. And I'm not. That doesn't mean I can't be amused by your ignorance.

Okay Dad tell me what I'm ignorant on. Please. I want in on the joke that only you can see.

I'm sure you won't because you have no argument.

You seem to forget there are a set of parents on the other side. What happens if your daughter got raped, and the person who did it wasn't even brought to trail? I bet you'd want the judicial system to be fixed to protect your daughter and right the wrong that was done to her.

To use your wonderful argument, if you didn't, you shouldn't have kids.

Yeah, that's hilarious! WOOO HOOO!

[DC Muskie]

If there is a broken process and this lawsuit results in it being fixed, that would be one potential positive.

I tend to think that a private university or private organization of any kind can reserve the right to kick out whoever for whatever reason they want, based on whatever evidence or no evidence whatsoever, at their discretion. I think those who get kicked out have the right to be displeased with the decision, and be vocal about it, and others can draw their own conclusions about it.

If the school is doing a disservice to itself by relying on a process that doesn't serve its objective, then they should fix it.

Yes.

[bjf123]

I have a question. It may have been asked over the past 30+ pages, but if the woman was an RA over the dorm that Mr. Wells resided in, what was the punishment or decision regarding her engaging in activities with those under her charge?

Was this ever addressed or is it a non-issue?

I've also wondered this since this first came out. If she was the RA, shouldn't she be the "mature, responsible adult" who's job is to keep everyone in line as best she can? Getting drunk with the students in her dorm isn't part of the job.


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[Juice]

If there is a broken process and this lawsuit results in it being fixed, that would be one potential positive.

I tend to think that a private university or private organization of any kind can reserve the right to kick out whoever for whatever reason they want, based on whatever evidence or no evidence whatsoever, at their discretion. I think those who get kicked out have the right to be displeased with the decision, and be vocal about it, and others can draw their own conclusions about it.

If the school is doing a disservice to itself by relying on a process that doesn't serve its objective, then they should fix it.

But what about if that university receives federal grants or aid?

[gladdenguy]

Gladden, I love ya man, but what the hell is your end game here?

I guess to satisfy you, the following has to happen:

Xavier settles and has to pay millions. Graham is fired, but XU is impoverished. Assistant Coaches leave because of low pay. Mack leaves because they can't give him a raise. Charters stop because the school can't afford them. Fans stop coming. Donors stop donating. The program is toast.

Yep, old' Dez is freed...which he already is at Maryland. Dez lawyers get tons of dough on their contingency. Graham is gone but the new XU Prez is presiding over a scorched earth. Done, Finis'.

Yep, just what you want, right? All because a guy didn't wrap his johnson and lied about it. Sounds like a perfect outcome.

W........T..........F?

No because a kid was labeled a rapist because the leaders of the school are pathetic in every thing they have done after "the brawl" and there needs to be change. They can't even admit they make a mistake. Kind of like you can't admit when Xavier f$%ks up.

The only way to do this is to hit them hard in the pocketbook. Also, if you can't get back up after you have "f*#ked up" so much publicly then oh well.
I'm not gonna sit here and try to justify every ignorant thing Xavier has done after the brawl and spin it the way you do to make Xavier look good no matter what. This university has been disappointing since the brawl and the only GOOD thing that has happened is the invite to the Big East.
Guess what, that invite is because of the last 30 years......certainly not because of what Chris Mack has done at Xavier in his time.
AND in my opinion, nothing to do with Mike Graham either. More due to Staak, Gillen, Matta, and Miller and the players under them.

[LA Muskie]

This is a very frustrating thread. Is it a viable claim? Probably not. But we all knew this was coming as far back as a year ago -- so it's not really news. Dez will get a few bucks. His lawyers will get a few bucks. The university's lawyer will get a few bucks. Most of the bucks will come from the university's insurance policy. That's why you take out a policy in the first place.

Now when does the season start???

[GoMuskies]

This is a very frustrating thread. Is it a viable claim? Probably not. But we all knew this was coming as far back as a year ago -- so it's not really news. Dez will get a few bucks. His lawyers will get a few bucks. The university's lawyer will get a few bucks. Most of the bucks will come from the university's insurance policy. That's why you take out a policy in the first place.


True enough. It only really gets interesting for us if we get into discovery. The Dez Wells discovery thread will overtake the conference realignment thread in about a week.

[XU 87]

This university has been disappointing since the brawl and the only GOOD thing that has happened is the invite to the Big East.


I thought going to the A-10 finals and the Sweet 16 were good things. I also thought that beating some top 25 teams last year with a limited roster were good things. I thought Semaj was pretty good. I think the new recruits coming in are pretty good.

[Backyard Champ]

This is a very frustrating thread. Is it a viable claim? Probably not. But we all knew this was coming as far back as a year ago -- so it's not really news. Dez will get a few bucks. His lawyers will get a few bucks. The university's lawyer will get a few bucks. Most of the bucks will come from the university's insurance policy. That's why you take out a policy in the first place.

Now when does the season start???

I guess I'm an idiot, because I didn't see it coming. Seemed pretty out of the blue to me. Now, if it came a long time ago, then I would understand it.

[GoMuskies]

Guess what, that invite is because of the last 30 years......certainly not because of what Chris Mack has done at Xavier in his time.


It seems to me that Mack has been Xavier's head coach for 33% of the Sweet Sixteens in program history. So the invite probably had something to do with Mack's time at Xavier.

[Kahns Krazy]

But what about if that university receives federal grants or aid?

I understand that changes the game to some extent, but I still think that they retain much of that discretion. It's a private institution that you have to apply to, be accepted into, and abide by the rules of. The rules are written to give the administration the upper hand in all of the interpretation. If you don't like it, go somewhere else that doesn't have a strict code. I don't think the solution is to force Xavier to change what students it is forced to accept as part of the student population.

BYU can expel you for drinking one beer or even a cup of coffee. Ridiculous? I think so, but them's the rules. Doesn't bother me because I would have no interest in going there.

[LA Muskie]

True enough. It only really gets interesting for us if we get into discovery. The Dez Wells discovery thread will overtake the conference realignment thread in about a week.

There will be a protective order. The discovery will never see the light of day unless there is a trial. And this will be settled or otherwise resolved well before it's ever tried.

[LA Muskie]

I guess I'm an idiot, because I didn't see it coming. Seemed pretty out of the blue to me. Now, if it came a long time ago, then I would understand it.

These cases are never filed right away. They are filed only when the parties fail to settle it quietly. The filing of the lawsuit is a negotiating tactic by the plaintiffs' lawyer. But it's a bell that can't be un-rung, so he's now unsuccessfully waisted several weapons in his arsenal.

[DC Muskie]

These cases are never filed right away. They are filed only when the parties fail to settle it quietly. The filing of the lawsuit is a negotiating tactic by the plaintiffs' lawyer. But it's a bell that can't be un-rung, so he's now unsuccessfully waisted several weapons in his arsenal.

That's interesting...what other weapons could he have used before filing?

[sweet16]

Gladden, I love ya man, but what the hell is your end game here?

I guess to satisfy you, the following has to happen:

Xavier settles and has to pay millions. Graham is fired, but XU is impoverished. Assistant Coaches leave because of low pay. Mack leaves because they can't give him a raise. Charters stop because the school can't afford them. Fans stop coming. Donors stop donating. The program is toast.

Yep, old' Dez is freed...which he already is at Maryland. Dez lawyers get tons of dough on their contingency. Graham is gone but the new XU Prez is presiding over a scorched earth. Done, Finis'.

Yep, just what you want, right? All because a guy didn't wrap his johnson and lied about it. Sounds like a perfect outcome.

W........T..........F?

He's a jocksniffer. Once you accept that as fact then his position on Wells make perfect sense.

[LA Muskie]

That's interesting...what other weapons could he have used before filing?
He's used at least two:

1. The THREAT of filing a lawsuit (and the resulting negative press).
2. The ACTUAL filing of the lawsuit (which lets the cat out of the bag, thereby eviscerating the potential upside to the defendant in settling to avoid the negative press)

He probably also tried a more nuanced approach before the overt threat, but I wouldn't really call that a weapon.

[paulxu]

This guy's track record with high profile cases is not good.
Maybe that had something to do with not settling before the filing.

[Kahns Krazy]

No because a kid was labeled a rapist because the leaders of the school are pathetic in every thing they have done...

No, when you really boil it down, he was labeled a rapist because he stuck his dick in a girl that he wasn't 100% sure wasn't batshit crazy. Let that be a lesson to all you young men out there. While this particular situation might center around a jimmy-hat, fact is that even if he did wear one, she can claim assault the next day, and we might still be in the same boat today. If you can't be certain that she isn't going to turn on you the next day, stand down.

Xavier didn't accuse him of anything. One woman did. She might have lied. She might be telling the truth. Even she might not be totally sure. Either way, if you take away the act, you take away all of the problems. To act like Dez wasn't the one that started all of his own problems is just ridiculous.

[Caveat]

This thread is a dumpster fire of comedy.

A bunch of people on a basketball forum talking seriously about the federal government, Joe Deters, drunk RAs and whether or not Merlyn Shiverdecker is actually a Xavier fan.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Okay Dad tell me what I'm ignorant on. Please. I want in on the joke that only you can see.

I'm sure you won't because you have no argument.

You seem to forget there are a set of parents on the other side. What happens if your daughter got raped, and the person who did it wasn't even brought to trail? I bet you'd want the judicial system to be fixed to protect your daughter and right the wrong that was done to her.

To use your wonderful argument, if you didn't, you shouldn't have kids.

Yeah, that's hilarious! WOOO HOOO!

Or your daughter was duped into sex because the guy said he was going to use protection? I would be irate if I was the parent of that daughter.

I think some people on this board are forgetting the fact that Dez was dishonest when he said he would use protection and didn't. To me, that is grounds enough for expulsion from the University. It is, however, not enough to count as rape in a court of law.

[Charlesbt4]

I get the sense that DC Muskie is a real tool.

[LA Muskie]

I think it would be fair to say that this thread has officially devolved. Keep it classy folks.

[paulxu]

Some fun:


Ginsburg said he had met with university representatives before filing the suit. While he would not divulge the discussions that went on privately, he said, "If you look at Xavier's statement that was released, it's obvious Xavier hasn't realized what it did wrong."


Ginsberg said he was contacted by Wells and his mother last November shortly after he was reinstated by the NCAA. While there were only a couple of incidents at games — specifically at Northwesten and Duke, where students repeatedly chanted, "No means no" as Wells went to the free throw line — the allegations of rape continued to rattle Wells.


According to those familiar with the situation, Wells did not tell Maryland officials about his plans to sue Xavier


Ginsberg declined to say what financial arrangement he had made with Wells and his family.
"That's really a matter between Dez and me, but one thing that you can be sure of [is that] I wouldn't go anywhere close to putting Dez in a compromising position with the regard to the NCAA," Ginsberg said.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/terps/bs-sp-terps-dez-wells-0822-20130821,0,6166046.story

[gladdenguy]

I get the sense that DC Muskie is a real tool.

If there is anything to take home from this thread I believe you hit the nail on the head with that statement.

[bobbiemcgee]

God came to Dez in a vision and told him to sue, and also hire a Jewish Attorney to keep Snipe happy.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Or your daughter was duped into sex because the guy said he was going to use protection? I would be irate if I was the parent of that daughter.


I agree Az. My point was that whether its your son or daughter, if you think your child is being treated unfairly or judged unfairly, I would think most parents wouldn't respond with, "well if you were stupid enough to mess around with a crazy broad, then crazy stuff is bound to happen." Or "if you were stupid enough to mess around with a crazy guy, then crazy stuff is bound to happen." But maybe I'm wrong....I would guess that there is a very good chance that both sets of parents in this situation are very unhappy and feel like their children are being treated unfairly.

As for the subject at hand, can't wait to see X's Answer to the Complaint.

[LA Muskie]

As for the subject at hand, can't wait to see X's Answer to the Complaint.
Nigel, answers are far less interesting than complaints, even in federal court. I wouldn't expect it to be intriguing reading. I think it will be pretty innocuous. Defendants don't tell their "story" in their Answers. Far more interesting would be any motion filed by the university -- either in the form of a motion to dismiss (based on the pleading alone) or a motion for summary judgment (with evidence). We should know which way the school goes shortly. Absent an extension of time, a response is due 21 days after service.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Nigel, answers are far less interesting than complaints, even in federal court. I wouldn't expect it to be intriguing reading. I think it will be pretty innocuous. Defendants don't tell their "story" in their Answers. Far more interesting would be any motion filed by the university -- either in the form of a motion to dismiss (based on the pleading alone) or a motion for summary judgment (with evidence). We should know which way the school goes shortly. Absent an extension of time, a response is due 21 days after service.

I'm aware. Guess I was just presuming their may be some type of counterclaim...perhaps for attorney's fees. Most answers are "Defendants deny Section 4-34 of the Plaintiff's Complaint," etc. But I agree, I guess I'm waiting for something of substance from X regarding their side. It may not happen though if they go to mediation or arbitration and settle quickly.

[DC Muskie]

I get the sense that DC Muskie is a real tool.

Have no doubts Chuck I am.

[Xaveriana]

This thread reminds me of the comical email chains that arrise ever so often at large companies. You know the ones where someone sends a mass Reply-to-All and then someone else replys to all that you shouldn't send a Reply to All and then others start the reply to all chain asking to be removed from the email list. A chain of total nonsence.

Be happy...the Big East and basketball season are coming.

[DC Muskie]

I agree Az. My point was that whether its your son or daughter, if you think your child is being treated unfairly or judged unfairly, I would think most parents wouldn't respond with, "well if you were stupid enough to mess around with a crazy broad, then crazy stuff is bound to happen." Or "if you were stupid enough to mess around with a crazy guy, then crazy stuff is bound to happen." But maybe I'm wrong....I would guess that there is a very good chance that both sets of parents in this situation are very unhappy and feel like their children are being treated unfairly.

As for the subject at hand, can't wait to see X's Answer to the Complaint.

And my point is when you bring up the entire "what if this happened to to your family" argument in a discussion it completely misses the point because there are two sides to everything. XU2011's original argument was, "Hey what with this happened to your son, you'd be pissed." I don't doubt Dez's parents are pissed. That doesn't make them right. If you think that, then I guess the accuser's parents must be wrong.

I would be surprised more parents wouldn't be at least upset with the behavior of either their son or daughter that put them in this situation. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll defer to you, the expert on how parents should or should not act. Or completely dismiss it as something you find hilarious, parents being upset at their kids behavior.

[DC Muskie]

Ginsberg said he was contacted by Wells and his mother last November shortly after he was reinstated by the NCAA. While there were only a couple of incidents at games — specifically at Northwesten and Duke, where students repeatedly chanted, "No means no" as Wells went to the free throw line — the allegations of rape continued to rattle Wells.

By filing this lawsuit with the chance that it could drag on into the season, "only a couple of incidents" is going to turn into "every road game" pretty quickly.

Get paid Dez. Or hope this ends before the season's starts. Because if two incidents rattled you, you ain't seen nothing yet. Just wait until the stupid kids get of a hold of this.

[XU2011]

OH MY GOD.

Not long ago I was screwed over by a president of a Catholic school here in DC concerning a job I had accepted. The guy for no other reason pulled the offer weeks before I was supposed to begin work. .

Given that you admitted a few posts ago that you're a tool, are you sure it was for "no reason"? I'm not sure Catholic schools in DC want self-admitted and self-proclaimed tools working for them.

[DC Muskie]

Given that you admitted a few posts ago that you're a tool, are you sure it was for "no reason"? I'm not sure Catholic schools in DC want self-admitted and self-proclaimed tools working for them.

It could actually. Maybe if I removed it from my executive summary. Never lie on a resume, so maybe I will bring it up in an interview.

Or better yet, after I pass my work probation. That's probably the best bet.

[GoMuskies]

.....

No, but I have one of her poems (freely available from xu.edu):

My head hurts
If you could go through what I do
You would see why my head hurts
I've got a certain standard to be
People used to see me as the key to the black community
But now all they want to see is something pretending to be what it's not
Am I wrong for my language?
Am I a traitor because of my safe haven?
Out of a million I see two colored faces
I see people judging the races, violators, perpetrators, smashing my soul in the dirt-
Can you see why my head hurts?
They will smile in your face, and once you turn around disown you
And I'm two-faced?
They will judge you because you prefer your own
But even in a large crowd you can still be alone-
So what am I to do?
You ask me why I smile?
I smile because I want to cry
And crying would make my head hurt

[paulxu]

More fun. These newspapers need to employ better editors:


John McDonnell/The Washington Post - Dez Wells will be one of Maryland’s team leaders next season with his lawsuit against Maryland hanging over his head.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/dez-wellss-attorney-says-client-will-be-able-to-balance-basketball-lawsuit/2013/08/21/8cdf8356-0a9d-11e3-9941-6711ed662e71_story.html

[drudy23]

Ginsberg said he was contacted by Wells and his mother last November shortly after he was reinstated by the NCAA. While there were only a couple of incidents at games — specifically at Northwesten and Duke, where students repeatedly chanted, "No means no" as Wells went to the free throw line — the allegations of rape continued to rattle Wells.

By filing this lawsuit with the chance that it could drag on into the season, "only a couple of incidents" is going to turn into "every road game" pretty quickly.

Get paid Dez. Or hope this ends before the season's starts. Because if two incidents rattled you, you ain't seen nothing yet. Just wait until the stupid kids get of a hold of this.

The chants are much easier to take with half a mil in your acoount.

[paulxu]

Maybe the NCAA will get it as student athletes are not allowed to earn money from their fame.

[bobbiemcgee]

So why doesn't the girl sue Dez? She's gonna have to testify anyway. Get an ambulance chaser, girl. Time to cash in.

[paulxu]

Winning friends:


From what I’ve been told, Maryland coaches and officials -- including university president Wallace Loh -- are not happy that Wells never told them that he was suing Xavier. Considering the chance Anderson took in taking Wells in last summer, I believe Wells owed him that.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-08-23/sports/bal-terps-trio-basketball-schedule-dez-wells-lawsuit-trayvon-reeds-upside-20130823_1_dez-wells-basketball-schedule-terps-trio

[coasterville95]

Mam oh mam.

What can I add that hasn't already been mentioned.

Just disappointed this has come back up a year later. I had thought everybody had moved on. Here we are, on the verge of starting our first Big East season, and we are still obsessed with The Dez Wells Saga.

It is interesting that he didn't at least tell Maryland he was going to sue. I'm hoping the court system schedules this case to start in January, to be tried at the federal court house in Cincinnati (under the arguement that it is the most convenient to most of the parties). See how much support he gets from Maryland when he will be in court in the the thick of conference season, ergo not able to practice with the team, and if Maryland wants to play him, they would have to charter flight him from Lunken to the game, and back for the next days's trial. How would the NCAA view that extraordinary expenditure.

IF Dez has cheesed off Maryland's coaches and officials enough, he may be lucky to even sniff the floor. What would that do to his NBA draft stock.

[GoMuskies]

I don't think there's any reason Dez has to attend the trial other than if/when he is going to testify. But I would be shocked if the court doesn't schedule around the season anyway.

[LA Muskie]

There is no way in hell this case is tried before May 2014. And only a slightly greater chance it is tried at all.

[LA Muskie]

I'm sure MD would prefer that he not sue. It's a needless distraction from their perspective. But Dez and his family need to do what's right for them. And their lawyer almost surely told them not to discuss the case with anyone.

He was their leading scorer last year and will be their team leader this year. The odds that he loses favor with the staff over this "flap" are very, very low. Seems to me it's just a journalist trying to create a story where there is none.

[paulxu]

Somebody send this kid Ginsburg's phone number.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9620831/bubu-palo-dismissed-iowa-state-basketball-team

[xubrew]

I'm not taking sides because I really don't care, but just a couple of points....

-The best time to sue a university for anything is at the start of the academic year. That's when people are the most busy, and that is the time in which they'll most quickly want it off their desk. The reason I think someone else other than Dez is driving the ship is simply because of the timing. Even if it weren't during such a busy time, the energy and cost of taking this case to trial and winning will be more expensive than simply settling for an undisclosed amount. And even on top of that, if you give someone who has been expelled a chance to publicly make their case, even if their case is weak and pathetic, it still isn't ideal That's why I think Xavier will settle. It's just the most practical thing to do.

-Xavier did nothing, not one thing, to help him be immediately eligible other than expelling him. If a school does not certify a player's eligibility, it automatically results in a full release. If something occurs to nullify the certification (IE getting expelled) it also automatically results in a full release. Xavier did not advocate for him, and the NCAA would not have listened to them if they had. That's just not how it works.

The transfer rule in men's basketball is that you have to complete a year of residency if you go from one div1 school to another. If the original school tries to block a player, they can only block them from receiving aid and playing for one year. That's all they can really do unless it is an LOI situation, which this wasn't. Since in basketball, a player needs to sit out anyway, all they could really do is stop him from receiving aid.

The reason he got the waiver was because he did not seek a transfer, and the situation made it impossible for him to not only return to his former team, but to return to his former school. It was not a typical transfer situation. It was basically treated the same way a player would be treated if they were at a school that discontinued their program. That was the whole basis of his waiver. Xavier did NOTHING AT ALL to assist him, and it wouldn't have mattered if they did.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I'm not taking sides because I really don't care, but just a couple of points....

-The best time to sue a university for anything is at the start of the academic year. That's when people are the most busy, and that is the time in which they'll most quickly want it off their desk. The reason I think someone else other than Dez is driving the ship is simply because of the timing. Even if it weren't during such a busy time, the energy and cost of taking this case to trial and winning will be more expensive than simply settling for an undisclosed amount. And even on top of that, if you give someone who has been expelled a chance to publicly make their case, even if their case is weak and pathetic, it still isn't ideal That's why I think Xavier will settle. It's just the most practical thing to do.

Well, I totally agree someone else is driving the ship. I think it's quite clear that its his attorney. When most people hire an attorney, they let them take care of legal matters...including the filing of a lawsuit and its timing. I have no idea if the timing was done purposely or due to the statute of limitations...but either way, of course his attorneys are dealing with this. As an attorney, very few clients argue with their lawyers over issues of legal procedure, like when to file. I doubt a 20 year old would either.

[UC_PussyCats]

Hey guys, I was just going to get a few of these shirts for my friends and I but thought I'd share.

Big Dez fan and have followed the situation closely so thought it would be a funny way to express support for him. Pretty simple shirts with College block lettering

If anyone is interested let me know. Thanks!

1291

1292

[blueblob06]

I think most of us have moved on. I really wish the best for Dez but the more attention we draw to this, the worse Xavier looks.

[GoMuskies]

I'm glad Dez is doing well in his new home. But I hope anyone who wears one of those shirts on Xavier's campus has it forcibly removed from them.

[xubrew]

I'm glad Dez is doing well in his new home. But I hope anyone who wears one of those shirts on Xavier's campus has it forcibly removed from them.

Then THEY could sue Xavier!!

[Titanxman04]

Then THEY could sue Xavier!!

I bought ten of them. Then, if I get to sue X, it won't be for money, just life-long season tickets in a suite. It's foolproof.

[GoMuskies]

I bought ten of them. Then, if I get to sue X, it won't be for money, just life-long season tickets in a suite. It's foolproof.

Can I represent you in the case in exchange for one of the tickets? Nevermind that I have never been in a courtroom (or a deposition). I'll figure it out if a ticket in a suite is involved.

[bobbiemcgee]

I assume Dez is getting the proceeds, which, of course, would invalidate his scholarship.

[XULucho27]

We should get a shirt made about the brawl with UC while we're at it.

Hang on there's a dead horse over there that's just cruisin' for a bruisin'

[kyxu]

Hey guys, I was just going to get a few of these shirts for my friends and I but thought I'd share.

Big Dez fan and have followed the situation closely so thought it would be a funny way to express support for him. Pretty simple shirts with College block lettering

If anyone is interested let me know. Thanks!

1291

1292


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlA9bNk3b5Q

[LadyMuskie]

I can see why the creator of the shirt supports Dez so much - they're both into doing things that are pretty stupid and will have negative consequences.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I can see why the creator of the shirt supports Dez so much - they're both into doing things that are pretty stupid and will have negative consequences.

This...how quickly we all forget what he actually admitted to doing. It was shady and if he did it to my daughter I would most certainly want him expelled.

[GoMuskies]

This...how quickly we all forget what he actually admitted to doing. It was shady and if he did it to my daughter I would most certainly want him expelled.

Can we not go back down this road? Suffice it to say, there is disagreement on this point.

[Milhouse]

Dumb shirt. Dumb idea.

Hope you're not a Xavier business major!

[bobbiemcgee]

I vote to close this thread, for a while, anyway. 1st game of year is friday. why dredge this shit up again.

[RealDeal]

I'm with bobbie.