A-Rod v. Pete Rose

[Muskie]

So Alex Rodriguez gets busted multiple times for something that directly affects the integrity of the game and gets approximately a 200 game suspension.

Pete Rose bets on baseball (which I get is a major issue) but there is no evidence it affected any outcome of any game. Lifetime ban?

I guess A-Rod should be happy Bart Giamatti and Fay Vincent aren't still around?

[Porkopolis]

Eventually, both should be. But I hope A-Rod has to do his time just like all the other PED cheaters who are waiting to be voted in. Actual bans are silly because the HOF is not at all affiliated with MLB. They simply agreed to leave Rose off the ballot to appease the commissioner at the time who blamed Pete for the death of Bart Giamatti.

[GoMuskies]

Neither. Did Pete bet on the Reds EVERY night? And did he bet the same amount? If not, that's a problem. A lifetime ban problem.

[paulxu]

They simply agreed to leave Rose off the ballot to appease the commissioner at the time who blamed Pete for the death of Bart Giamatti.

Well, that's one thing we can't blame on Mack.

[xubrew]

Pete Rose swore for over fifteen years that he never bet on baseball. The evidence was so strong that he did it would be like Mickey Mantle swearing that he never drank.

Then, fifteen years later, he admits to betting on baseball. Shortly after that, I believe he claimed to have bet on the Reds every single night. That's awesome. He goes from insisting that he didn't bet to admitting that he bet on every game.

He now sells signed baseballs on EBay with the inscription "I'm sorry I bet on baseball." They go for about $200 a pop.

Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame not because he is the all time hits leader, but because of his audacity. That's something ARod doesn't have.

ARod begs for attention, where as Pete Rose simply instructs people to pay attention.

[blueblob06]

I thought he only bet on the Reds but not on all games...i.e. if we were more likely to lose, he didn't bet on them that night.

Also, what bookie would take a bet on the Reds from the Reds manager??? I assume he must've had some deal set up where he gives $ to a friend and that person places the bets.

(Sorry if this is common knowledge, I wasn't old enough to know what was going on when Pete got banned.)

[nuts4xu]

This is simple. There is no evidence that Pete Rose placed any bets on baseball during his career as a player. Everything that has ever been published about Pete betting on baseball has been with him as a manager. The fact that baseball banned him THEN changed the rules that banned players can't be elected to the HOF, is ridiculous. It basically affects 2 players....Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson.

Pete Rose should be in the HOF for his playing career. The HOF has done this as long as it has been in existence. Bob Eucker is in the HOF as an announcer, not for hitting .200 for his career as a catcher. Sparky Anderson is in the HOF for his resume as a manager, not for his 152 games playing second base for the Phillies.

If baseball can separate the careers for some, why not all? Ban Pete Rose from ever managing another game, then elect Pete based on his accomplishments on the field.

Having said that, the better half of A-Rod's career is now tainted, and it is tough to say what he accomplished without PED's. He tried to cover up and purchase evidence from the Biogenesis lab. Not only did he cheat....but he did his best to disrupt the investigation into what he has or has not done. He professed his regrets in 2009 and asked to be judged on what takes place after...well, then judge him on his actions the past 7 months. He is a fraud, a cheat, and it will be difficult to ever believe anything that comes out of his mouth. He will be lumped in with McGuire and Bonds, and I am not sure he will be ever elected into the HOF when he is elegible.

[PMI]

It's one thing to complain about what certain rules or laws are. I do all the time. But they still are the rules. And the golden rule of baseball has always been that you can't bet on the game. The years of lying didn't help either. I have a pretty good understanding of what Pete Rose meant to Reds fans, and don't blame them for advocating on his behalf. But the rules are the rules, fair, unfair, or whatever.

As for A-Rod, I suspect he will probably get the same treatment that all the other steroid cheaters get, which is not to get in right away. What happens in the more distant future with all the steroid cheaters is still unknown. These guys knowingly cheated and broke the rules. I am not saying that to bash. I really enjoyed the steroid era, as it made baseball far more interesting to me. But it's still cheating.

[RealDeal]

When are the owners and managers who knew their players were juicing but enjoyed the wins and revenue getting banned/suspended? Lots of evidence the owners and certain managers knew, but it's only the players getting thrown under the bus. Doesn't seem right.

[PMI]

It's probably harder to prove what the owners knew than it is to find bad urine in players. It's hard for me to really see it as players getting thrown under the bus when they were the ones that actually did it (and in most cases blatantly lied about it.) I have no doubt that there was an era where owners, managers, etc. turned a blind eye to what was going on (and perhaps some still do) but I would imagine that would be a tough battle for baseball to take on at this point, unless they have some evidence other than Jose Canseco's book.

[RealDeal]

It's probably harder to prove what the owners knew than it is to find bad urine in players. It's hard for me to really see it as players getting thrown under the bus when they were the ones that actually did it (and in most cases blatantly lied about it.) I have no doubt that there was an era where owners, managers, etc. turned a blind eye to what was going on (and perhaps some still do) but I would imagine that would be a tough battle for baseball to take on at this point, unless they have some evidence other than Jose Canseco's book.

I agree with you, unfortunately the proof will never be there, but the whole thing stinks. The real victims are of course the fans, and the players and owners get to keep their money.

[Juice]

I agree with you, unfortunately the proof will never be there, but the whole thing stinks. The real victims are of course the fans, and the players and owners get to keep their money.

Really? You had a bad time watching Sosa and McGwire bash home runs?

[gladdenguy]

I hate them both. They are both scum. It was simply a different time.
Keep them both out.
There are arguments for and against both. Bottom line. They will not ever be in the hall and that is the way it should be.

[RealDeal]

Really? You had a bad time watching Sosa and McGwire bash home runs?

Yeah, that was fun at the time, but baseball tradition and the false record breaking is a much bigger issue to most fans. You think it was a good thing for the game?

[Juice]

Yeah, that was fun at the time, but baseball tradition and the false record breaking is a much bigger issue to most fans. You think it was a good thing for the game?

Who cares about the records? Babe Ruth set records without playing against black people. Maris set the home run record with extra games. Guys in the 70s and 80s were doing greenies. Every era had some bullshit going on that calls into question the numbers recorded at the time. There is probably at least one guy in the Hall of Fame who was juicing (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/06/a-reminder-there-is-almost-certainly-a-current-hall-of-famer-who-used-peds/).

[RealDeal]

Who cares about the records?/[/URL]).

Lots of people care about the integrity of the game, which is why you are seeing the suspensions, testing, etc. That's fine that you don't agree, but most baseball fans do.

[xubrew]

Shoeless Joe is dead. I believe he has served his lifetime ban and should now be eligible for inclusion. He's square with the house again.

If I'm not mistaken, the Hall of Fame is its own entity. It has no direct relationship with Major League Baseball. The Hall of Fame could induct Pete Rose on the grounds that he won most of his bets if it was their druthers to do so.

MLB can ban Rose from being a manager, batting coach, bullpen catcher, general manager, scout, or working in the ticket office, but they cannot keep him out of the hall of fame. Am I wrong??

[Juice]

Lots of people care about the integrity of the game, which is why you are seeing the suspensions, testing, etc. That's fine that you don't agree, but most baseball fans do.

Why don't people care about the integrity of the game in the NFL? http://sports.yahoo.com/photos/2013-nfl-ped-suspensions-slideshow/offensive-lineman-demarcus-love-of-arkansas-at-the-nfl-scouting-combine-at-lucas-oil-stadium-photo-1375394142306.html Ban these guys for life! They're sub-human.

Why aren't people talking about the NBA and college athletes that have been connected to Biogenesis?

People are pretty selective about what they think damages the integrity of the game.

[nuts4xu]

I hate them both. They are both scum. It was simply a different time.
Keep them both out.
There are arguments for and against both. Bottom line. They will not ever be in the hall and that is the way it should be.

You hate Pete Rose? Blasphemy!!

Turn in your "West-sider" card, your Elder jacket, and frequent buyer card for Price Hill Chili and report directly to Batavia or Eastgate. There is no place on the west side for a Pete Rose hater!!

[PMI]

Many baseball fans care very much about records, tradition, numbers, etc. I understand and respect that. But not me. I enjoy seeing roided out freaks of nature performing athletic feats that seem above what a normal human could be capable of. I think steroids need to be eliminated from sports for the good of society as a whole, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy reaping the benefits.

[RealDeal]

Why don't people care about the integrity of the game in the NFL? http://sports.yahoo.com/photos/2013-nfl-ped-suspensions-slideshow/offensive-lineman-demarcus-love-of-arkansas-at-the-nfl-scouting-combine-at-lucas-oil-stadium-photo-1375394142306.html Ban these guys for life! They're sub-human.

Why aren't people talking about the NBA and college athletes that have been connected to Biogenesis?

People are pretty selective about what they think damages the integrity of the game.

I don't see the same amount of anger from football fans as baseball fans over roids, why, I don't know. And I don't really care. Call mo egger and ask him, that's talk radio material.

[SixFig]

I want to change my vote. I think both should be in after they die. Lifetime ban. Literally.

[X-band '01]

Brew has talked about LeBron James acting like a heel in WWE; Rodriguez is in the same mold now. Dude knows he's f'ed and is looking to give anyone and everyone the middle finger on his way out the door.

[X-band '01]

Why aren't people talking about the NBA and college athletes that have been connected to Biogenesis?


I haven't heard of any NBA links to Biogenesis - the big problem for the NBA was Tim Donaghy a few years back.

[Juice]

I haven't heard of any NBA links to Biogenesis - the big problem for the NBA was Tim Donaghy a few years back.


Porter Fischer, the former Biogenesis employee who provided the information baseball is using to go after Braun, Rodriguez and many other baseball players, told ESPN that there are also athletes from the NBA — not to mention boxing, tennis, MMA and college athletics — on the Biogenesis client list.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-08-03/sports/os-mike-bianchi-nba-peds-0804-20130803_1_nba-players-nba-drug-testing-policy-nba-stars

[bourbonman]

Let Shoeless Joe in and I'll think about it.

[outsideobserver11]

This is a tough location to get a non-biased opinion on this subject because so many of us have on our Cincinnati blinders. Reality is the both should be banned from baseball. People can say Pete didn't effect the outcome of games because he only bet on his team to win all they want but that's not true because his gambling did effect the outcome of games. It effected his decision making on whether or not to give a player a day off, continue to play a guy even if he had a slight knock, try to squeeze extra innings out of his best bullpen arm, bump his best starter up in the rotation, etc.

Pete got banned for attacking the integrity of the game, AROD is in trouble for cheating the game. How the MLB can determine that one of those is more severe than the other makes no sense at all to me. They both should face a lifetime ban and then it can be re-addressed after they are dead. It's all a bit of a moot point anyways because even if Pete were reinstated tomorrow I have a hard time believing he would ever get the necessary votes to be elected.

Saying Pete the player should be in but not the manager is a tough thing to argue as well because it's still the same person. Sparky and Eucker may not have been HOF worthy players on the field, but they also didn't attack the integrity of the game either. There are even tons of guys in the HOF that were drunks, beat their wives, and were all around terrible people but they didn't cheat the game.

[Seven Eighths]

Who cares about the records? Babe Ruth set records without playing against black people. Maris set the home run record with extra games. Guys in the 70s and 80s were doing greenies. Every era had some bullshit going on that calls into question the numbers recorded at the time. There is probably at least one guy in the Hall of Fame who was juicing (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/06/a-reminder-there-is-almost-certainly-a-current-hall-of-famer-who-used-peds/).

I agree with most of what you said but I do care about the records. For example, I really want Jeter to hang it up before he gets to 4,000 hits. (I know he is a long shot).

I do think the records should be viewed by their era like you stated. Each time a record is set or broken it has to be compared with just the time period in which they played. Ripken's record is less impressive to me than Gehrig's because Ripken had access to far greater medical science to allow him to go out every day but lots and lots of guys weren't doing what Ripken did every game during his era.

Rose broke a rule while he was still a player manager or even if he was just a manager that requires a lifetime ban if caught. ARod's should really only get a 50 or 100 game suspension by the way the rules are currently with MLB.

I don't think anyone should be banned for life. Punish offenses but don't keep players out entirely for the rest of their lives. Also, the sports writers need to stop trying to re-write history.

[Juice]

I agree with most of what you said but I do care about the records. For example, I really want Jeter to hang it up before he gets to 4,000 hits. (I know he is a long shot).

I do think the records should be viewed by their era like you stated. Each time a record is set or broken it has to be compared with just the time period in which they played. Ripken's record is less impressive to me than Gehrig's because Ripken had access to far greater medical science to allow him to go out every day but lots and lots of guys weren't doing what Ripken did every game during his era.

Rose broke a rule while he was still a player manager or even if he was just a manager that requires a lifetime ban if caught. ARod's should really only get a 50 or 100 game suspension by the way the rules are currently with MLB.

I don't think anyone should be banned for life. Punish offenses but don't keep players out entirely for the rest of their lives. Also, the sports writers need to stop trying to re-write history.

Everyone says this for first time PED users. What if a guy legitimately did not know he was taking a PED? What if a trainer gave him the wrong stuff? Some spiteful person spiked his drink with PEDS? Is baseball really supposed to ban a guy for life?

[Juice]

Should Josh Lueke be banned for life?

[Fireball]

If Bart Giamatti were still alive, then Pete Rose would be in the Hall of Fame.

That being said, Pete should be in the Hall of Fame, or at least be eligible for a vote. Let the writers / Veteran's Committee decide how he should be handled, just like the steroid users. I think 25 years is a long enough suspension for gambling on his team to win baseball games. He never threw a game, which is what the gambling rule is designed to prevent.

Now, Pete should never be allowed to hold a job in baseball again, but his career merits a Hall of Fame vote.

[BandAid]

Now it looks like A-Rod leaked info on Braun to the press: Allegations that A-Rod’s camp outed players puts union in tough spot (http://mlb.si.com/2013/08/16/alex-rodriguez-60-minutes-report-ryan-braun-francisco-cervelli-implicated/)

Oi.

[X-band '01]

Alex Rodriguez = Jose Canseco 2.0

[Seven Eighths]

Should Josh Lueke be banned for life?

I don't think anyone should be banned for life.

[Juice]

I don't think anyone should be banned for life.

My point was that I would much rather have a rapist like Lueke banned than ARod. But Lueke was just called up to the bigs and no one said a peep.

[Snipe]

I think that Pete Rose has a low IQ.

Same for Shoeless Joe.

If Pete were smart he would have played the victim of his "gambling addiction". We all love a victim.

Pete wasn't cheating, but he was breaking the rules. A-rod was cheating, and that is not fair. Pete Rose being a low IQ, low White trash prole did not give the Cincinnati Reds an unfair advantage. A-rod's cheating did. Pete Rose is the legitimate Hit King, and he never cheated to get there. A-Rod might have been much less of a player without the illegal drugs.

Pete Rose played to win and played hard. I don't think that he ruined the integrity of the game. He certainly made bad choices, but just as people argue that retarded people shouldn't get the death penalty, I would argue that retarded white trash Pete Rose shouldn't be hit so hard as well. He never cheated and never threw a game. It just wasn't in his nature. He was the ultimate competitor. And boy did that man love the game. If he could he would still be playing.

[PMI]

I think that Pete Rose has a low IQ.

Same for Shoeless Joe.

If Pete were smart he would have played the victim of his "gambling addiction". We all love a victim.

Pete wasn't cheating, but he was breaking the rules. A-rod was cheating, and that is not fair. Pete Rose being a low IQ, low White trash prole did not give the Cincinnati Reds an unfair advantage. A-rod's cheating did. Pete Rose is the legitimate Hit King, and he never cheated to get there. A-Rod might have been much less of a player without the illegal drugs.

Pete Rose played to win and played hard. I don't think that he ruined the integrity of the game. He certainly made bad choices, but just as people argue that retarded people shouldn't get the death penalty, I would argue that retarded white trash Pete Rose shouldn't be hit so hard as well. He never cheated and never threw a game. It just wasn't in his nature. He was the ultimate competitor. And boy did that man love the game. If he could he would still be playing.

I don't really see how Pete Rose was hit too hard. He was breaking the golden rule of baseball (and breaking the law) and the penalty is that he's not allowed to be a part of baseball anymore. Breaking the rules is not allowed. He may well be too retarded to have fully understood what he was doing, but the rule is what it is. You don't bet on the game. Whether or not he gave the Reds the same kind of unfair advantage as A-Rod gave his teams is not the point when it comes to whether or not he should be banned by baseball. If baseball were to make an exception for Pete Rose just because he was a great player, what message would they be sending?

[chico]

I don't really see how Pete Rose was hit too hard. He was breaking the golden rule of baseball (and breaking the law) and the penalty is that he's not allowed to be a part of baseball anymore. Breaking the rules is not allowed. He may well be too retarded to have fully understood what he was doing, but the rule is what it is. You don't bet on the game. Whether or not he gave the Reds the same kind of unfair advantage as A-Rod gave his teams is not the point when it comes to whether or not he should be banned by baseball. If baseball were to make an exception for Pete Rose just because he was a great player, what message would they be sending?

Actually, Rose's real crime is arrogance. Ueberroth gave him a deal of a one year suspension, then getting back in the game. Rose wanted nothing to do with it. Ueberroth persisted, telling him they have him dead to rights and showing him the Dowd report. Rose still said no. Ueberroth told him the guy about to take his place (Giamatti) would not offer such a great deal, and that he would be wise to take it. Rose again said no.

Even with all this, Rose still belongs in the HOF as a player. There is no evidence he bet on baseball while playing, so he should be eligible. However, he should never be allowed to work in any capacity for any team.

I do find it funny that the HOF has numerous Rose artifacts exhibited but still leaves the man out.

[nuts4xu]

If baseball were to make an exception for Pete Rose just because he was a great player, what message would they be sending?

That Pete Rose's accomplishments on the field, as a player, are worthy of consideration to be elected to the HOF. That his decisions and mistakes as a manager, didn't tarnish the records he set when playing the game. And that the Hall of Fame can use the same logic to elect Pete Rose as they used when separating the careers of a player/broadcaster such as Bob Eucker.

The charges against Pete were always against his behavior as a manager. I have never read one story saying he bet on baseball as a player, so elect Pete the player and ban Pete the manager.

[PMI]

There's no doubt that Pete Rose is a sure-fire first ballot HOFer when it comes to on-field production. Nobody can argue that. I really don't have a dog in the fight, and I know how this issue is more sensitive to Cincinnati folks than others nationwide. I just don't believe he has anyone to blame but himself for being in this situation.

[nuts4xu]

I just don't believe he has anyone to blame but himself for being in this situation.

True and accurate. He could have done a lot of things differently to avoid the situation he is in right now.

[chico]

There's no doubt that Pete Rose is a sure-fire first ballot HOFer when it comes to on-field production. Nobody can argue that. I really don't have a dog in the fight, and I know how this issue is more sensitive to Cincinnati folks than others nationwide. I just don't believe he has anyone to blame but himself for being in this situation.

I'll second what nuts said. He could be in the hall now and could have worked in baseball again but he was too much of an arrogant SOB. Instead he's relegated to making some of the worst commercials this side of Bill Cowher. For those of you not in Cincy who have been denied the pleasure.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okSIywgQXL8

[X-band '01]

I'm more fascinated how that video links to a segment with Arsenio Hall and Mister Rogers.