Detroit bankruptcy, "underfunded" public pension obligations, and busting the unions

[Emp]

I'm amazed, given the history of Motown Hate on this board, that Snipe or MOR hasn't come drooling on this news yet.

Disclaimers and disclosures: I grew up in the near north suburbs, and went to the Jesuit high school in the city (where I first heard of the notion of "men for others.") Both sides of my family grew up in Detroit, and one of my sisters lived a few blocks from The Corner in Corktown for years. My brother is active in the city with the Police Athletic League. I'm in Detroit often, and attend many events, sports and musical, in the city. Whatever the mess in the city, Detroit is alive with energy, music and spirit.

Detroit has had exceptionally bad and corrupt leadership and bad management for a long time. That compounds the loss of manufacturing jobs, revenue, population, brain drain and spirit. It's been teetering for years, and I generally applaud putting in an emergency manager and taking steps to turn the city around.

Gov. Snyder and the legislature don't want to rescue Detroit nearly as much as they want to bust unions and get rid of public employee pensions. Bankruptcy filing is the only possible way to do that (and there is the little matter of the Michigan constitutional protections for public employee pensions.) The attempt to file bankruptcy makes no sense unless getting rid of the pensions is a major goal. No one but the lawyers will prosper, and this will go on for years.

In every state where Republican majorities are controlling the statehouse, including Ohio, busting the public sector unions is Top 3 in political agendas. Were there a similar policy war on the Chamber of Commerce, all hell would be breaking out.

Emergency measures are needed. The devil is always in the details.

[GoMuskies]

Detroit has been bankrupt for years. I guess now there is formal recognition of that fact.

[bobbiemcgee]

Emergency measures are needed. The devil is always in the details.


100,000 + creditors, Street lights don't work, 66% of ambulances don't run, 78,000 burned out buildings. Nobody left to rob. They need more than emergency measures. Bulldoze it and start a farm.

[waggy]

Just sad. Particularly the demise of a lot of grand architectural buildings in that town. I'm sure most have seen pictures.

If one goes back and looks at early '70's movies that were shot on location in American cities, particularly noticable is the absence of imported cars. I saw one recently, and lliterally every single car was big American iron, and there were a lot of them. I don't know what that says, but that's how it used to be.

[blobfan]

Declaring bankruptcy just means things are going to be tied up in court for the next couple years. I don't know if this is to buy time in hopes the economy takes care of the issue or what but it seems like a bad decision.

[Pete Delkus]

I'm amazed, given the history of Motown Hate on this board, that Snipe or MOR hasn't come drooling on this news yet.

Disclaimers and disclosures: I grew up in the near north suburbs, and went to the Jesuit high school in the city (where I first heard of the notion of "men for others.") Both sides of my family grew up in Detroit, and one of my sisters lived a few blocks from The Corner in Corktown for years. My brother is active in the city with the Police Athletic League. I'm in Detroit often, and attend many events, sports and musical, in the city. Whatever the mess in the city, Detroit is alive with energy, music and spirit.

Detroit has had exceptionally bad and corrupt leadership and bad management for a long time. That compounds the loss of manufacturing jobs, revenue, population, brain drain and spirit. It's been teetering for years, and I generally applaud putting in an emergency manager and taking steps to turn the city around.

Gov. Snyder and the legislature don't want to rescue Detroit nearly as much as they want to bust unions and get rid of public employee pensions. Bankruptcy filing is the only possible way to do that (and there is the little matter of the Michigan constitutional protections for public employee pensions.) The attempt to file bankruptcy makes no sense unless getting rid of the pensions is a major goal. No one but the lawyers will prosper, and this will go on for years.

In every state where Republican majorities are controlling the statehouse, including Ohio, busting the public sector unions is Top 3 in political agendas. Were there a similar policy war on the Chamber of Commerce, all hell would be breaking out.

Emergency measures are needed. The devil is always in the details.

Are not pensions and healthcare making up a majority of the $20,000,000,000? If the Dems in power were corrupt and incompetent, and thus kicked the can down the road and made promises Detroit can't keep, where else would you expect to devote effort and attention?

The Chamber of Commerce, in my understanding, has never provided a promise of $20 Billion to a certain entity and failed to deliver, and thus creating a situation like Detroit is in currently.

I like Detroit, like the people. However, it's interesting where fingers start to point when reality hits.

[xu95]

Come on Pete. It is the Republican majorities in the Michigan legislature that are at fault. Not the Unions, not the corrupt mayors of Detroit, etc.

[bjf123]

The reality is that many public pensions are seriously underfunded and unsustainable going forward. What needs to happen is for all government employees to move to a plan like the rest of us where you save for your own retirement and hope your employer contributes something to it. Unfortunately, the unions will never go for it, so bankruptcy becomes the ultimate solution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kahns Krazy]

Why is the word underfunded in quotes in the title of this thread?

[SpectorJersey]

Rev up Jen Granholm!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbqmGfN3h6c

[ArizonaXUGrad]

The reality is that many public pensions are seriously underfunded and unsustainable going forward. What needs to happen is for all government employees to move to a plan like the rest of us where you save for your own retirement and hope your employer contributes something to it. Unfortunately, the unions will never go for it, so bankruptcy becomes the ultimate solution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unrealistic, a lot of people I know specifically went into government work where compensation is noticeably lower because of the pension it offers. You can't tell at 65 year old that his/her pension is gone after working their whole life to get it. I get that life is not fair but that is down right cruel.

Secondly, if you dump the pension format who would ever work for governmental entities? If government had the same 401k policy as most corporations people who have a choice between the private and public sector would choose the private every time. If you can only offer less pay you have to come up with something else to attract the talent.

[GoMuskies]

Secondly, if you dump the pension format who would ever work for governmental entities? If government had the same 401k policy as most corporations people who have a choice between the private and public sector would choose the private every time. If you can only offer less pay you have to come up with something else to attract the talent.

Job security is generally a lot higher in the public sector.

[LadyMuskie]

Job security is generally a lot higher in the public sector.

I agree.

Additionally, it's not as if private sector employees haven't lost retirement savings when a corporation goes belly up and stock prices tumble. At-will employment is far more precarious in the private sector than in the public sector, where bad employees tend to get transferred as opposed to fired.

[blobfan]

I'm not a big fan of public employees but I find it hard to stir up righteous anger against retirees who, so I've heard, are living high off pensions of around 20K or less. Those are people that can't afford to move out of that hell-hole so taking money from them just makes the situation worse. One fair, and probably completely illegal, way to deal with pensions is simply strip them from all those that served on City Counsel and their extended families. That would probably take care of half the problem.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I would like to know how the problem was actually created. Was it from over compensation of public employees or was it from a general economic downturn in our automobile industry resulting in the loss of jobs and population of the city?

I am sure it was a function of both but I would bet the overall reduction in tax revenue should probably take the lion share of responsibility.

[Muskie]

I did see that the Detroit City Council took a break from being bankrupt to take an important vote on asking the federal government to file civil rights charges against George Zimmerman. Awesome use of time and money there.

[LadyMuskie]

I would like to know how the problem was actually created. Was it from over compensation of public employees or was it from a general economic downturn in our automobile industry resulting in the loss of jobs and population of the city?

I am sure it was a function of both but I would bet the overall reduction in tax revenue should probably take the lion share of responsibility.

I think that dwindling city tax revenue is part of the problem, but as is illustrated in this (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/23/business/23prichard.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) article from 2010 about Prichard, Alabama, the pension systems were set up decades ago in the 50s when things were all peachy-keen, and haven't been revised or updated to allow for the decline in city populations and other economic issues. As is also illustrated by the article, when cities or states try to reduce the pension payouts to make sure they last longer, or so that more people can be covered by them, the unions and retirees sue. No one, not the high paid employees or the lowly paid employees, wants to help out his fellow man if it comes at a cost to his own wallet.

It reminds me of Issue 2 here in Ohio last year. Fire, police and teacher unions rallied the public enough to get a majority to vote against it. But, what they lacked was long term vision in that when the money's gone, the money is gone, and now negotiations can't take place in a timely enough manner to keep mass layoffs from happening. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip. It would be better to take a reduction in pay and benefits than have no pay or benefits at all. It's all very reminiscent of the Hostess debacle. If the money isn't there, it isn't there, and agreeing to renegotiate the contract at the 11th hour when things are already really bad is just a bandaid on a gangrenous wound.

I feel bad for the retirees who are faced with no pension. However, the writing was on the wall for some time, and like private sector employees, diversifying and looking to keep your options open is always a good idea!

[PM Thor]

Lady, you are incorrect about the unions suing to keep pension plans from being overhauled. I know for fact that my union, the greater Ohio firefighter union, and many other firefighter unions have agreed to pension reforms, and in Detroit they even agreed to take a 15% cut in future pension payouts. As for SB5 (issue 2) Ohio has overhauled our pension AFTER that vote happened. We agreed to it because we ain't stupid.

Other than that, I think it is best I stay out of this conversation because it's too close to home for me. But here is a CNN Money article about the Detroit pensions and how they stand in comparison to the rest of the country. It's not like they were generous or anything, there were far deeper issues at hand to simply point a finger at one part and say that THAT is the reason for Detroits failure.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/23/retirement/detroit-pensions/

And on a personal note, I highly recommend a 50 minute documentary on Youtube called "Detroit On Fire". It shows what the DFD has to deal with every day, being underfunded and undermanned. (If you get a chance see Dennis Learys film called "Burn", which talks about it too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDoUpXNmcZA

[bjf123]

Unrealistic, a lot of people I know specifically went into government work where compensation is noticeably lower because of the pension it offers. You can't tell at 65 year old that his/her pension is gone after working their whole life to get it. I get that life is not fair but that is down right cruel.
It might have been the case years ago, but I don't think public sector employees are as underpaid as they used to be, but they still have great job protection, benefits, and retirement. I saw a study last year that showed middle management, office workers, accountants, etc., are paid equal to, and in some cases more, than comparable private sector jobs. You don't have the high six figure and up jobs in the public sector, but those jobs are few and far between in the private sector.

I agree that someone who worked 30+ years and expected a pension shouldn't have to give it up, but sometimes $%#| happens. My father worked for one company his entire career. He retired as the company started to struggle in the early 80s. Luckily, he took his pension as a lump sum. Those who were still working when the company went out of business lost almost all of their pension.

All I'm saying is the current system must be changed going forward. It is not sustainable.



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[GuyFawkes38]

Detroit was not blindsided by this. There has been talk of this downfall for the past 10 years. Hopefully Detroit city workers acted rationally and increased their savings rate (and I bet most did).

If I was a city worker in a city that's financially troubled I would increase my savings rate and demand my union to get money upfront, not future promises (as lucrative as the future promises might sound).

[bigdiggins]

It might have been the case years ago, but I don't think public sector employees are as underpaid as they used to be, but they still have great job protection, benefits, and retirement. I saw a study last year that showed middle management, office workers, accountants, etc., are paid equal to, and in some cases more, than comparable private sector jobs. You don't have the high six figure and up jobs in the public sector, but those jobs are few and far between in the private sector.

I agree that someone who worked 30+ years and expected a pension shouldn't have to give it up, but sometimes $%#| happens. My father worked for one company his entire career. He retired as the company started to struggle in the early 80s. Luckily, he took his pension as a lump sum. Those who were still working when the company went out of business lost almost all of their pension.

All I'm saying is the current system must be changed going forward. It is not sustainable.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Accounts Receivable partners working in a Fortune 500 company in the midwest with 2 years experience can expect to make around $15-$16/hour. Per Ohio revised code, this position in the public sector pays $19. That's $40,000/yr for data entry. The public sector pays just fine.

[Kahns Krazy]

Unrealistic, a lot of people I know specifically went into government work where compensation is noticeably lower because of the pension it offers. You can't tell at 65 year old that his/her pension is gone after working their whole life to get it. I get that life is not fair but that is down right cruel.

Secondly, if you dump the pension format who would ever work for governmental entities? If government had the same 401k policy as most corporations people who have a choice between the private and public sector would choose the private every time. If you can only offer less pay you have to come up with something else to attract the talent.

First, you don't touch the already retired benefits. Start with new hires. Nobody new gets in the pension program. Redesign a defined contribution program tied to tax revenues and competitive salaries. Second, scale the current work staff so that those who got in recently will convert, those that are closer to retirement will get most of their benefit.

The current retiree dilemna is not an excuse to continue to add to the problem every day. Stop making the problem worse, then worry about the cleanup.

[Smails]

Question for those in the know on this: Is the underfunded pension program a product of a reduced tax base/population, was the city borrowing from it for other projects in the hopes of catching up later... or are there other more complicated scenarios?

[Masterofreality]

Meanwhile, the State of Michigan has voted to use $242 million in public money to fund a new hockey house for the Red Wings and multi billionaire owner Mike Ilitch. Really.

You have a bankrupt city where 80% of the street lights don't work and ambulances are broken down, but you're going to build a new playpen for a guy who throws money around like it's confetti. And, yeah, I know he's contributing something, but sure sounds like messed up priorities to me.

Great. You'll get 18,000 people downtown for 50 nights a year.....the same 18,000 every time, by the way that are going to Joe Louis already.

What a ridiculous waste of resources.

[Porkopolis]

As a public school teacher in Ohio I have to say our pension system is doing everything it can to remain stable for the long term. Our required contribution is rising from 10% to 14% and retires will now have to pay more for their health care. STRS was solvent before but will now be further bolstered by good long term planning. Not all public pensions are horribly run.

[Muskie]

Meanwhile, the State of Michigan has voted to use $242 million in public money to fund a new hockey house for the Red Wings and multi billionaire owner Mike Ilitch. Really.

You have a bankrupt city where 80% of the street lights don't work and ambulances are broken down, but you're going to build a new playpen for a guy who throws money around like it's confetti. And, yeah, I know he's contributing something, but sure sounds like messed up priorities to me.

Great. You'll get 18,000 people downtown for 50 nights a year.....the same 18,000 every time, by the way that are going to Joe Louis already.

What a ridiculous waste of resources.

I know it may be hair splitting but my understanding is that the money that had been set aside by a special tax. Usually those taxes direct exactly where the money must be spent. I'm sure the city council could change this with some sort of vote, but they are busy passing resolutions about George Zimmerman (a Florida resident).

[Kahns Krazy]

As a public school teacher in Ohio I have to say our pension system is doing everything it can to remain stable for the long term. Our required contribution is rising from 10% to 14% and retires will now have to pay more for their health care. STRS was solvent before but will now be further bolstered by good long term planning. Not all public pensions are horribly run.

I believe, but do not know for certain, that pensions that refer to themselves as "solvent" are only solvent if the municipalities can contribute the stated funds. Cincinnati, for example, is substantially behind on contributions to pension funds, and there is no clear plan to catch up based on current tax revenues. I believe the funds are including this receivable when they do their solvency calculations. You can go from solvent to broke pretty quick when a municipality declares bankruptcy.

[blueblob06]

As a public school teacher in Ohio I have to say our pension system is doing everything it can to remain stable for the long term. Our required contribution is rising from 10% to 14% and retires will now have to pay more for their health care. STRS was solvent before but will now be further bolstered by good long term planning. Not all public pensions are horribly run.
Does that mean that the employee pays 14% of their retirement savings/pension and the employer/state pays 86% ?

[jhelmes37]

Does that mean that the employee pays 14% of their retirement savings/pension and the employer/state pays 86% ?

No. 14% of the said employee's paycheck goes towards their pension they will receive in retirement.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

No. 14% of the said employee's paycheck goes towards their pension they will receive in retirement.

This has happened in Arizona as well. I am not a state employee but I know of several. Their take home hurts because of the amount they are required to fund ASRS.

[PM Thor]

I believe, but do not know for certain, that pensions that refer to themselves as "solvent" are only solvent if the municipalities can contribute the stated funds. Cincinnati, for example, is substantially behind on contributions to pension funds, and there is no clear plan to catch up based on current tax revenues. I believe the funds are including this receivable when they do their solvency calculations. You can go from solvent to broke pretty quick when a municipality declares bankruptcy.

Yes and no. Police and fire contributions by the city are where they should be, but for the other public sector workers they are WAY behind. The city will NEVER catch up, and those on city council don't seem to even want to address the issue (except for Smitherman, he sends out city wide emails about it almost every week).

It's more than just simple mismanagement on the part of the city administration. If they hadn't put off payments in the past (in order to get other projects pushed through) then the problem wouldn't be compounded as it is. Now they don't know what the heck to do other than cut and cut some more on pensions and jobs, without stopping or seriously curtailing these other projects. The best example is Laure Quinlivan pushing through a $63,000 plan this year for flowerpots, all the while the city was considering layoffs of police and fire. I know it's basically chump change in the city but it shows the level of disconnect that some of our leaders have when it comes to the massive problems this city faces (or rather, doesn't want to face)

When it comes to Detroit though, you can't point to the pensions as the reason for the proposed bankruptcy alone. That town has shrunk so much that its entire infrastructure has imploded.

[PM Thor]

No. 14% of the said employee's paycheck goes towards their pension they will receive in retirement.

And don't forget, no social security. I think people forget how big a deal that is. If Detroit defaults on their pensions, then there is absolutely nothing for the retirees to fall back on besides their personal savings. (Which lets be honest, people are pretty dumb, I doubt that a majority saved enough factoring in the idea that there could possibly be no pension to add to their living expenses)

[Kahns Krazy]

This has happened in Arizona as well. I am not a state employee but I know of several. Their take home hurts because of the amount they are required to fund ASRS.

My take home hurts because I pay my 401k 15% after I pay 7.65% SS and Medicare. So the state employee is out 14% with a guaranteed payment and I am out 22.65% with no guarantee. Guess which one is more valuable.

[bigdiggins]

And don't forget, no social security. I think people forget how big a deal that is. If Detroit defaults on their pensions, then there is absolutely nothing for the retirees to fall back on besides their personal savings. (Which lets be honest, people are pretty dumb, I doubt that a majority saved enough factoring in the idea that there could possibly be no pension to add to their living expenses)

Social security is not a big deal; it is money I have essentially been throwing away every week since I began working 20+ years ago. In my retirement planning it is assumed I will not see a dime of what I paid in.

[LadyMuskie]

Social security is not a big deal; it is money I have essentially been throwing away every week since I began working 20+ years ago. In my retirement planning it is assumed I will not see a dime of what I paid in.

Exactly. Anyone under the age of 50 counting on social security hasn't been paying attention. The hubby and I are 100% sure we'll never see a dime of the thousands and thousands of dollars we've paid into social security. And if we do see any of it, it will be such a minuscule amount that it won't help at all. Hell, some of the people getting social security now still rely more heavily on their private retirement accounts.

[blobfan]

Only way I expect to see social security is if something in life goes hellishly wrong and hubby and I are both completely disabled. Which to me was the original purpose: funds for people who have passed the point in life where they can reasonably make a living. It should never have been expanded to be a general retirement fund.

But back to Detroit, I think the corruption was ultimately what did them in. I heard a comparison to Philadelphia. Apparently both faced loss of industry and were really hurt by the economic downturn but Philly planned ahead, made significant cuts early, and worked to woo business back. Detroit just kept la-la'ing on its merry way, paying off cronies and re-electing corrupt city officials. Didn't at least one counsel member in the past few years get re-elected while under indictment? It's too bad you can't go back through voting records and take away the support for all the idiots that voted for the corrupt officials.

Not really. I'm glad that can't be checked. But in this case it might be a more just plan.

[PM Thor]

Social security is not a big deal; it is money I have essentially been throwing away every week since I began working 20+ years ago. In my retirement planning it is assumed I will not see a dime of what I paid in.

Actually, if you take it in the context that you've been paying into a pension system in good faith, then have it pulled out from under you, then THAT is what's the big deal about no social security. Could you imagine if your 401k basically disappeared and then you also had no social security either? That's what's happening to public workers who have been putting their 10-14% of take home pay into the pension system, only to hear it isn't being funded properly. There is no backup at all.

But I know what you are saying. If you expect Social Security to be how you support yourself in your older years alone, then you are well and truly effed.

[bleedXblue]

The public sector has to be responsible with how they run their "businesses"' just like 99.9% of the private sector (minus the big bank and big auto bail outs).

You can't spend what you don't have. You have to make good decisions. You have to make constant changes to the way that you do things in order to be be solvent and competitive. This notion of pay less, but reward with outrageous pensions and benefits applies to the logic. Stop the madness. You can't spend what you don't have.

[UCGRAD4X]

You can't spend what you don't have.
This is obviously NOT true!
You mentioned the banks and the auto industries (GM & Chrysler).

You forgot to mention all of the homeowners who irresponsibly bought homes they could not possibly pay for (granted - buoyed by banks who - as stated - are already being bailed out) and are allowed to write off their stupid decisions while more responsible homeowners are stuck with their debt and a house which lost half of its value.

You also forget to mention local, state and especially federal government who continually spend what they (meaning we) don't have...including bailing out failing entities and legislating that banks should loan money to people who can not possibly pay it back so they can, then, bail them out too.

[Masterofreality]

When it comes to Detroit though, you can't point to the pensions as the reason for the proposed bankruptcy alone. That town has shrunk so much that its entire infrastructure has imploded.

Well, not alone, but it is a major contributing factor.

Thor, you know I love ya, and, by the way, Police, Fire, EMS and all First Responders deserve everything they get. Bloated City Administrations pumped by by cronyism from Coleman Young and Kwame Kilpatrick, and some of the other featherbedded departments who receive unreasonable pension benefits are another story. Ridiculously high city expenses, by necessity, unreasonably raise income taxes, cause people to look elsewhere to live and cause property owners to abandon properties so they won't be stuck with exhorbitant tax bills and are a factor in rotting out the core. Businesses who get stuck with high corporate taxes and fees also look elsewhere to move- example- Ford Motor Company who originally built the Renassiance Center then moved back out of the city to Dearborn to save on the stupidly high costs. Then after the taxes and expenses get way to high, the City, in a panic, starts providing "incentives" to get business back...but the incentives, ala tax forgiveness for a period, do nothing for the budget problem. It just papers over the problem.

No, the pensions aren't the only reason, but they are certainly a major, major factor. Egg meet Chicken.

[Snipe]

People say that Demographics is Destiny in American politics, and I believe that it is. People of Detroit have been voting for corrupt Democrats for half a century. Even after this bankruptcy, nobody expects Detroit to stop voting for Democrats. Democrats now, Democrats forever!

[Snipe]

I'm amazed, given the history of Motown Hate on this board, that Snipe or MOR hasn't come drooling on this news yet.
Disclaimers and disclosures: I grew up in the near north suburbs, and went to the Jesuit high school in the city (where I first heard of the notion of "men for others.") Both sides of my family grew up in Detroit, and one of my sisters lived a few blocks from The Corner in Corktown for years. My brother is active in the city with the Police Athletic League. I'm in Detroit often, and attend many events, sports and musical, in the city. Whatever the mess in the city, Detroit is alive with energy, music and spirit.

Detroit has had exceptionally bad and corrupt leadership and bad management for a long time. That compounds the loss of manufacturing jobs, revenue, population, brain drain and spirit. It's been teetering for years, and I generally applaud putting in an emergency manager and taking steps to turn the city around.

Gov. Snyder and the legislature don't want to rescue Detroit nearly as much as they want to bust unions and get rid of public employee pensions. Bankruptcy filing is the only possible way to do that (and there is the little matter of the Michigan constitutional protections for public employee pensions.) The attempt to file bankruptcy makes no sense unless getting rid of the pensions is a major goal. No one but the lawyers will prosper, and this will go on for years.

In every state where Republican majorities are controlling the statehouse, including Ohio, busting the public sector unions is Top 3 in political agendas. Were there a similar policy war on the Chamber of Commerce, all hell would be breaking out.

Emergency measures are needed. The devil is always in the details.

I was just in the Motor City this past week. I took in the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Villiage. I also toured some of the ruins and Grosse Pointe. Nobody but tourists were by the old train depot, and they were snapping pictures like crazy. I got some good shots. It is eerie.

80,000 vacant buildings, many burned out. What is it, 40% of the street lights don't work? That city is just broken.

I can't see how it can come back. Half the population is functionally illiterate. How do you come back from that? I would start sterilizing people right away. I also think the Feds should bail them out in an effort to keep them in Detroit. I fear that if those people are allowed to leave, Detroit will just follow them. Demographics is destiny. They did it, let them live in it. Don't let them Detroit somewhere else.

In the racial riots of 1967, over 2,500 buildings were either looted, burned or both. Blacks were painting "black-owned" on their businesses and housing so they wouldn't get burned. Burn whitey!

Governor Romney called in the State National Guard, and then appealed for Federal troops. Tanks were rolling down the streets of Detroit. What an amazing spectacle that must have been with the city in flames.

African-American Coleman Young took over for his five terms of corruption in the early 1970's. 'It is our turn now!' 'Black Power!' Blacks took political power and stacked all the city government's offices and proceeded to loot the public treasury. Any criticism of the Coleman Young administration was tantamount to Racism. Coleman Young hired felons right out of prison and put them on the police force. Get Whitey!

Well, Whitey got the message and Detroit is now in ruins.

Before the riots Detroit may have been the best place for blacks in America to live. From Thomas Sowell:


Detroit is perhaps the most striking example of a once thriving city ruined by years of liberal social policies. Before the ghetto riot of 1967, Detroit's black population had the highest rate of home-ownership of any black urban population in the country, and their unemployment rate was just 3.4 percent.

It was not despair that fueled the riot. It was the riot which marked the beginning of the decline of Detroit to its current state of despair. Detroit's population today is only half of what it once was, and its most productive people have been the ones who fled.

Treating businesses and affluent people as prey, rather than assets, often pays off politically in the short run-- and elections are held in the short run. Killing the goose that lays the golden egg is a viable political strategy.

As whites were the first to start leaving Detroit, its then mayor Coleman Young saw this only as an exodus of people who were likely to vote against him, enhancing his re-election prospects.

But what was good for Mayor Young was disastrous for Detroit.

Blacks in Detroit before the riot were perhaps the wealthiest of any blacks in the nation. Homeownership and unemployment were remarkable compared to blacks elsewhere. And think of Motown, Detroit before the riots was the place for a black man to be, probably the black capital of the United States. I would think that Atlanta holds that crown now (but for how long?)

They killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

Detroit is a cesspool of humanity. It is dead, and it isn't coming back. The best we can do is try to contain the disease.

[Snipe]

I think that dwindling city tax revenue is part of the problem, but as is illustrated in this (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/23/business/23prichard.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) article from 2010 about Prichard, Alabama,


Prichard, Alabama also had sweeping Demographic changes. America is currently undergoing a demographic change that is unprecedented in our history.

Demographics is destiny.

[Snipe]

100,000 + creditors, Street lights don't work, 66% of ambulances don't run, 78,000 burned out buildings. Nobody left to rob. They need more than emergency measures. Bulldoze it and start a farm.

Half the population is functionally illiterate. Bulldoze them instead and things would take care of themselves. If you just bulldoze Detroit (which has been happening for decades) it doesn't solve the problem. Where they go Detroit will follow, and where they live the spirit of Detroit lives on.

[paulxu]

Well, I never knew it was a "liberal social policy" that offered government guaranteed loans to whites only so that they could flee the city limits for the suburbs and shrink the tax base to just the lower economic groups, gutting their schools and any meaningful opportunity to keep up.

Damn liberals.

[Snipe]

"offered government guaranteed loans to whites only so that they could flee the city limits for the suburbs and shrink the tax base to just the lower economic groups"

Could you be more specific and provide a link?

[GuyFawkes38]

Snipe visisted Detroit. Crazy.

Actually, I'd highly recommend a visit to Detroit to anyone. IMHO, Comerica Park is the best place to see a baseball game in the country (and I've been to a lot of ballparks). Greektown has some tasty food. The Henry Ford Museum is incredible (one of the best museums I've been to) The Detroit Institute of Art has a worldclass collection that rivals any art museum in the country.

Detroit's in bad shape. But the Detroit area still has some great institutions (hospitals, universities, museums, orchestra, etc.).

[paulxu]

"offered government guaranteed loans to whites only so that they could flee the city limits for the suburbs and shrink the tax base to just the lower economic groups"

Could you be more specific and provide a link?

I'll try to find it. I thought it was posted earlier in a different thread.

[paulxu]

This is not the particular study I remember from a week or so ago, but it will give you an idea of some of the things that were discussed in it:


The FHA was operated in a racially discriminatory manner since its inception in 1937 and set itself up as the "protector of all white neighborhoods," using its field agents to "keep Negroes and other minorities from buying houses in white neighborhoods."[21] Evidence also indicates that the federal government used interstate highway and urban renewal programs to segregate those blacks that had previously lived in more racially diverse communities.[22] Consequently, these schemes increased the concentration of poverty where it has festered ever since and has caused the federal government to be labeled as "most influential in creating and maintaining residential segregation."[23]

http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/landuse/vol141/seit.htm

[Snipe]

Snipe visisted Detroit. Crazy.



Detroit is an easy three and a half hour road trip, and I liked the Ford Museum and Greenfield village. I meant to spend a day in Ann Arbor and canoe the Huron but that got cut. The Edsel Ford estate in Grosse Pointe is spectacular. And I went to the site of Hardcore Pawn and cruised Eight Mile. Eight Mile is lame. The wife liked Hardcore Pawn, but I don't think you would be missing anything if you missed that too.

In future visits I would like to catch a baseball game and visit the Detroit Zoo. The real Detroit Zoo though is the city itself. Strangely quiet vs. my expectations. Most of it already has been bulldozed over. Lots of vacant property to be had on the cheap. It would be a great place to invest if you could dispose of the undertow. Whole city blocks just fallow. Some blocks with just a single house left struggling against the tide. I wonder how many Detroit fires were for the insurance money once people realized they couldn't sell their property and they couldn't leave without the sale.

Only 10% of crimes are solved. You can pretty much do what you want if you are not at a tourist destination or sporting event.

[waggy]

What's with the excuses Paul? "Segregation" is the problem in Detroit Paul? I would think race rioting would be its own form of segregation...

[Snipe]

This is not the particular study I remember from a week or so ago, but it will give you an idea of some of the things that were discussed in it:



http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/landuse/vol141/seit.htm

I have read some of the American Apartheid book that supplies many of the footnotes for that paper you cited. That is quite a leftist screed. Once White people become a minority views expressed in tomes like that may become the majority view. Whites in America may then face similar fates to those of Whites in Zimbabwe and South Africa. The plights of those whites and the farm killings and rapes have largely been ignored by the media.

I don't see where your quote of this backs up what happened specifically to Detroit, namely that:

"offered government guaranteed loans to whites only so that they could flee the city limits for the suburbs and shrink the tax base to just the lower economic groups"

I think that the racial riots where Blacks took aim at White people were a defining moment in Detroit history. It wasn't White people burning down Black buildings and businesses and expressing rage at Black people. It was Blacks doing that to White People. They were racial riots, not Marxist class-based riots. It was explicitly racial in the context. White people responded by moving away, and Coleman Young welcomed the exodus because it strengthened his political power. Now Detroit has become much like Zimbabwe, and people like you blame the White Man for leaving in the first place. I am not sure that is fair.

[Snipe]

What's with the excuses Paul? "Segregation" is the problem in Detroit Paul? I would think race rioting would be its own form of segregation...

I think that racial riots are an excellent time to stop and reflect upon one's commitment to a city or a community. Think of how many businesses and homes were attacked, looted and burned, it was over 2,500. I am sure many of those people choose not to open their doors or rebuild their homes. It would be hard for me to blame them.

[Snipe]

Also for Paul, Detroit spending on Public Education has been consistently above the national average. The Detroit Public schools have been run by Blacks for decades, and half the population is functionally illiterate. Another instance of looting the public treasury.

White people didn't "gut their schools". Detroit spending on education increased. The results are what went south. To act like this was all a government plan to destroy Detroit is just some silly progressive liberal defense mechanism. You desperately need to stop, as you appear a fool.

[waggy]

They need to hire a Jew to run that muther.

Someone had to say it.

[GoMuskies]

Finally this thread is getting going in the entertaining direction I hoped for/expected.

[bobbiemcgee]

Detroit had 1.8 million people in 1950. Now less than 700,000. 140 sq. miles to maintain. Tax base fled to the suburbs. Corrupt politicians stole the rest and borrowed to pay borrowings. School Board and school system are a terrible, disgusting joke. Kids rather smoke and sell crack rather than learn anything. Responsible parents, that are a tiny minority now, just need to get their kids out of that environment and let the City die. Get the hell out of Motown, it ain't coming back.

Get Snake Plissken on the horn and set up an appointment.

[Masterofreality]

Detroit had 1.8 million people in 1950. Now less than 700,000. 140 sq. miles to maintain. Tax base fled to the suburbs. Corrupt politicians stole the rest and borrowed to pay borrowings. School Board and school system are a terrible, disgusting joke. Kids rather smoke and sell crack rather than learn anything. Responsible parents, that are a tiny minority now, just need to get their kids out of that environment and let the City die. Get the hell out of Motown, it ain't coming back.

Get Snake Plissken on the horn and set up an appointment.

I'm sure that the sport of Hockey is proud that Detroit has self-named itself "Hockeytown" despite the fact that hockey was not created in Detroit, nor was it the first professional team. Montreal deserves the title.

[Snipe]

They need to hire a Jew to run that muther.

Someone had to say it.

Henry Ford would be turning in his grave!

He was Author of:

THE INTERNATIONAL JEW,
THE WORLD'S FOREMOST PROBLEM (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/intern_jew.htm)

They didn't cover that portion of history at the Ford Museum.

[paulxu]

You desperately need to stop, as you appear a fool.

It doesn't take much for me to appear a fool. I can do that with relative ease.

But you mistook a post I made concerning some of Detroit's problems as some attack on whites...or something.
Nothing, and I mean nothing, I note in any way excuses personal responsibility for one's own actions.

But I was born, raised, and once again live in the deep South. I understand well the ebb and flow of politics and how it often has a racial component.
To ignore the part the federal government played in creating and maintaining segregation over the years with their housing policies would be naïve on your part...and you certainly aren't naïve living where you live and with the business you have described.

And those policies have consequences. They are long term consequences, just as slavery fostered long term consequences. And it will take generations to correct many of the results. It didn't have to be that way, but that's what we have to live with and try our best to improve.


I don't see where your quote of this backs up what happened specifically to Detroit, namely that:

If you read the study you will understand how loans to minorities were granted (only 2% of all FHA guarantee ones) to be used in red-lined areas. The FHA effectively financed the white flight from many major cities.

[Masterofreality]

Henry Ford would be turning in his grave!

He was Author of:

THE INTERNATIONAL JEW,
THE WORLD'S FOREMOST PROBLEM (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/intern_jew.htm)

They didn't cover that portion of history at the Ford Museum.

Henry was also an avowed Prohibitionist.

He was positive that unless John Barleycorn was dead, the human society was doomed to destruction.

[Snipe]

Henry was also an avowed Prohibitionist.

He was positive that unless John Barleycorn was dead, the human society was doomed to destruction.

He was also a working man's Democrat. He was the first to institute the $5 wage.

Henry Ford wanted everyone to have his Model T.

He had at one time the highest paid common man workers in America, without unions. He was a revolutionary.

Henry Ford was a Great American.

[Masterofreality]

Meanwhile in related news...

Fast food workers in 7 US Cities.....including, of course, Detroit and Flint Michigan, are walking off the job today to protest low wages.

Look, I can't judge whether the wages are too low or not and maybe we should all be paying $8.00 for a Quarter Pounder without fries, but when you can buy a house for $7,000 in a city, what's low?

[bleedXblue]

Meanwhile in related news...

Fast food workers in 7 US Cities.....including, of course, Detroit and Flint Michigan, are walking off the job today to protest low wages.

Look, I can't judge whether the wages are too low or not and maybe we should all be paying $8.00 for a Quarter Pounder without fries, but when you can buy a house for $7,000 in a city, what's low?

One of their goals is to unionize. WTF, I think the world is coming to an end.

If you don't like your crappy job flipping fries, go find another one that pays better.

[Kahns Krazy]

If someone wanted to put together a union of fast food workers and train them to be better fast food employees, then it would make sense to me that they should command higher pay. I never encounter a fast food employee that gives any impression that they care about their job.

[Masterofreality]

This makes all the sense in the world. :seestars:

From the London Daily Mail:

"Many factors contribute to the fact that inexpensive vacant houses remain unsold. In addition to the expected costs of fixing up homes or bulldozing and starting from the ground up, Detroit has the highest property taxes among big cities nationwide.."

[Kahns Krazy]

This makes all the sense in the world. :seestars:

From the London Daily Mail:

"Many factors contribute to the fact that inexpensive vacant houses remain unsold. In addition to the expected costs of fixing up homes or bulldozing and starting from the ground up, Detroit has the highest property taxes among big cities nationwide.."

It makes total sense. If you have expense lines that are not variable (like pensions) and your top line decreases because your tax base moves out of the city, your only option is to raise tax rates. That's why it is so critical to maintain and grow the tax base, and why capital budget infrastructure projects like Fountain Square, the Banks, Washington Park and the Streetcar make sense to pursue even when there is current period operating budget pressure. You can only cut budgets for so long.