Big East Snake Pits

[xubrew]

The road is going to get tougher. Dayton was a snake pit. They usually weren't good, but they could beat good teams at home.

With Marquette, Georgetown (who's fans aren't hostile, but it's still tough to win there), Creighton (where we've always struggled), Providence (which I think is the equivalent of UD Arena), and Villanova (if the games are at the Pavilion), things are about to get tougher. Butler is no picnic either. Seton Hall and the Johnnies can be tough, but it's generally not quite as hostile.

With that being said, I really do wish we were playing in a true road game other than Alabama in December, which will be anything but hostile. That's our only true road game, and it will lack the venom of what our conference road games will be like. I know no one likes to schedule losses, but I do think we need to schedule challenges, and if you challenge yourself and lose in November and December, it's not too bad if it helps you prepare for your conference games in January, February and March.

Xavier has typically been a good road team, and I'm not saying that I don't think we can be. I'm just saying that we'll be playing in more snake pits than what we're used to, and I wish we would've scheduled at least one tough road game out of conference to get ready for it.

[muskiefan82]

We are in the Big East now. Big East teams rarely play road games. Have you not been paying attention for the last 20 years? Just kidding. I agree with you.

[casualfan]

I'm more concerned with the increase in talent level and the lack of drop off from the top of the conference on down.

I spent a lot of time watching the BEAST over the past 10 years and I really think people will be surprised at how little drop off there is between teams like Georgetown, Marquette and Villanova and teams like Depaul, Seton Hall, and Providence.

The athleticism and depth advantage we have enjoyed will no longer be there.

Last year St John's finished 10th place in the conference, but when you look at what they bring back and what they're adding fro ma recruiting standpoint they will be tough games this year.

Providence finished in 9th last year, but they will be tough games as well.

That's the biggest difference. No nights off. Everyone has the players to beat you on a given night unless you bring your A game.

I think that will be a bit of an adjustment for this team.

[sirthought]

Haha. Come on now, Casualfan, have you been watching the boards here for 10 years? Are you saying the 9th place Providence team would have been a contender in the A10? Thems fightin' words to a lot of people here.

Oh how the tables have turned.

[casualfan]

Haha. Come on now, Casualfan, have you been watching the boards here for 10 years? Are you saying the 9th place Providence team would have been a contender in the A10? Thems fightin' words to a lot of people here.

Oh how the tables have turned.


This is one of the big reasons I think people will be surprised how tough some of those games will be.

I don't know what that has to do with Providence contending in the A10, but I do think the cumulative effect of tough game after tough game will be different than what this team is used to.

I think our depth will be tested much more this year than in years past.

[GoMuskies]

Haha. Come on now, Casualfan, have you been watching the boards here for 10 years? Are you saying the 9th place Providence team would have been a contender in the A10? Thems fightin' words to a lot of people here.

Oh how the tables have turned.

Anyone who thinks Providence would have been a serious contender in the last 20 years in the A-10 is an idiot.

That doesn't mean they suck as bad as Fordham and Duquesne and LaSalle (most years), though. I think the real point is that the dregs of the Big East are much better than the dregs of the A-10. They're still not good teams. Just less shitty.

[xubrew]

I think Providence is about on the level of Dayton. Not a serious contender, but it's still tough to beat them when they're at home. As bad as they were last year, they were still 12-4 at home and managed wins over Notre Dame, Cincinnati and Villanova, all of whom were tournament teams. They also lost to Syracuse, Pitt and UConn by a combined total of 13 pts. Syracuse was a FF team, and they struggled at Providence.

So, for a team that isn't particularly good, which Providence isn't, their home court is still a snake pit. I agree that they wouldn't be a contender in the Atlantic Ten because half of their games would be road games, but they're not easy to beat when they're at home even though they're not particularly good.

[casualfan]

I think Providence is about on the level of Dayton. Not a serious contender, but it's still tough to beat them when they're at home. As bad as they were last year, they were still 12-4 at home and managed wins over Notre Dame, Cincinnati and Villanova, all of whom were tournament teams. They also lost to Syracuse, Pitt and UConn by a combined total of 13 pts. Syracuse was a FF team, and they struggled at Providence.

So, for a team that isn't particularly good, which Providence isn't, their home court is still a snake pit. I agree that they wouldn't be a contender in the Atlantic Ten because half of their games would be road games, but they're not easy to beat when they're at home even though they're not particularly good.


The other thing to keep in mind is that last year Providence had major injury issues. Their best player (Vincent Council) was injured in the first game and didn't play in the next ten. Kris Dunn, a 5 star PG also missed the first ten games of the season. Also, Sidiki Johnson missed a bunch of time as well.

If not for those injuries they were likely a tourney team last year. I expect them to a be very good team this year.

[jdm2000]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I expect things at Creighton to be easier than in the past. I know they will have great attendance, but as I recall, one of the big complaints was the refereeing there. Now we will get conference refs instead of whatever we had in the past.

[casualfan]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I expect things at Creighton to be easier than in the past. I know they will have great attendance, but as I recall, one of the big complaints was the refereeing there. Now we will get conference refs instead of whatever we had in the past.

That's interesting. I was always under the impression the road team brought refs from their conference to away games for nonconference games.

[xubrew]

That's interesting. I was always under the impression the road team brought refs from their conference to away games for nonconference games.

Uhhh.......No.

Referees are basically independent contractors. If it's a conference game, then the league office hires the refs. In fact, the Big East may want to get a Director of Officials to take care of that very duty. Could come in handy.

If it's an OOC game, then it's generally whoever is responsible for the event management that hires the refs. This is typically the home team, and the refs they'll hire will typically be someone from the area.

[flatspat]

Uhhh.......No.

Referees are basically independent contractors. If it's a conference game, then the league office hires the refs. In fact, the Big East may want to get a Director of Officials to take care of that very duty. Could come in handy.

If it's an OOC game, then it's generally whoever is responsible for the event management that hires the refs. This is typically the home team, and the refs they'll hire will typically be someone from the area.

I may be wrong but I thought I read somewhere that John Cahill is director of officials for new for Big East.

[XUFan09]

I may be wrong but I thought I read somewhere that John Cahill is director of officials for new for Big East.

I was about to post the same thing. Well...at least he's not directly officiating games?

[xubrew]

I may be wrong but I thought I read somewhere that John Cahill is director of officials for new for Big East.

Oh GOD!!!!

You are correct.

Is it too late to go back to the Atlantic Ten??

[casualfan]

Uhhh.......No.

Referees are basically independent contractors. If it's a conference game, then the league office hires the refs. In fact, the Big East may want to get a Director of Officials to take care of that very duty. Could come in handy.

If it's an OOC game, then it's generally whoever is responsible for the event management that hires the refs. This is typically the home team, and the refs they'll hire will typically be someone from the area.


I always thought that for high profile OOC games where there is a true road team the home team brings refs from their conference. Maybe it's just the BCS leagues or I might even be thinking of football.

[jdm2000]

You're thinking of football.

[xubrew]

I always thought that for high profile OOC games where there is a true road team the home team brings refs from their conference. Maybe it's just the BCS leagues or I might even be thinking of football.


You're thinking of football.

Even with football, that's not usually the case. I guess it is at times, but not always.

OOC games are played on whatever terms the two teams agree to. If one of the agreements is that the referees will be from the visiting team's conference, then I guess you'd see that, but I wouldn't call that a common stipulation. It has happened, though.

Referees are not employees of the conference league office. They are independent contractors who are hired by the league office to do individual games. Many of them officiate in multiple conferences. It's actually kind of ridiculous whenever you hear of a referee being suspended by the conference. All that really means is that they'll go and do other games from other conferences until their suspension is up.

If it's an out of conference game, the two teams will have to agree on who the referees will be, but in my experience the visiting team doesn't get too involved with picking the officials all that often.

[X-band '01]

The road is going to get tougher. Dayton was a snake pit. They usually weren't good, but they could beat good teams at home.

With Marquette, Georgetown (who's fans aren't hostile, but it's still tough to win there), Creighton (where we've always struggled), Providence (which I think is the equivalent of UD Arena), and Villanova (if the games are at the Pavilion), things are about to get tougher. Butler is no picnic either. Seton Hall and the Johnnies can be tough, but it's generally not quite as hostile.

With that being said, I really do wish we were playing in a true road game other than Alabama in December, which will be anything but hostile. That's our only true road game, and it will lack the venom of what our conference road games will be like. I know no one likes to schedule losses, but I do think we need to schedule challenges, and if you challenge yourself and lose in November and December, it's not too bad if it helps you prepare for your conference games in January, February and March.

Xavier has typically been a good road team, and I'm not saying that I don't think we can be. I'm just saying that we'll be playing in more snake pits than what we're used to, and I wish we would've scheduled at least one tough road game out of conference to get ready for it.

Xavier can just pretend that Providence = URI; they never lose up there (at least since URI opened up the Ryan Center).

[jdm2000]

Even with football, that's not usually the case. I guess it is at times, but not always.

OOC games are played on whatever terms the two teams agree to. If one of the agreements is that the referees will be from the visiting team's conference, then I guess you'd see that, but I wouldn't call that a common stipulation. It has happened, though.

Referees are not employees of the conference league office. They are independent contractors who are hired by the league office to do individual games. Many of them officiate in multiple conferences. It's actually kind of ridiculous whenever you hear of a referee being suspended by the conference. All that really means is that they'll go and do other games from other conferences until their suspension is up.

If it's an out of conference game, the two teams will have to agree on who the referees will be, but in my experience the visiting team doesn't get too involved with picking the officials all that often.

You do see it fairly often with really high profile OOC matchups. For example, when Ohio State and Texas had a home and home a few years ago, Big XII officials worked the game in Columbus and B1G officials worked the game in Austin.

[casualfan]

You do see it fairly often with really high profile OOC matchups. For example, when Ohio State and Texas had a home and home a few years ago, Big XII officials worked the game in Columbus and B1G officials worked the game in Austin.

That has to be what i was thinking of. I knew that it was pretty typical of higher profile games I just had the sports mixed up.

[paulxu]

Just as long as that idiot Cahill never "works" another Xavier game I'll be happy.

[casualfan]

Just as long as that idiot Cahill never "works" another Xavier game I'll be happy.

I hope that the Big East doesn't have a bunch of holdovers from the conference's previous construction, but I fear they will.

I've mentioned in a few other threads I've been somewhat of a Big East fanatic over the past 5-10 years and they have/had some baddd refs.

If I never saw Jim Burr again I'd die a happy man.

[jdm2000]

I haven't paid close attention to Big East officiating, but I cannot imagine it can be worse than A10 officiating.

[PMI]

Big East officials seem to let the guys play much more than the A10 refs, in my memory. Who knows what it will be like now.

[casualfan]

Big East officials seem to let the guys play much more than the A10 refs, in my memory. Who knows what it will be like now.

yep. they let guys murder each other in the lane and off the ball. Then when things start getting out of hand the touch fouls come out and ruin the flow of the game.

[ThrowDownDBrown]

There are no such thing as Big East refs and A 10 refs. During multiple games last year we had some of the big name officials do our games. It's really dependent on when the game is as refs try to do as many games a week as possible. I'm guessing the bigger conferences pay more then the smaller ones so that's why the "best" refs do the bigger conference games. Tv may even kick in some money too. But guys like Valentine and Hightower will do as many games a week as they can to get the most money. Always was annoying when people at games would complain about "A 10 refs"

[jdm2000]

There are no such thing as Big East refs and A 10 refs. During multiple games last year we had some of the big name officials do our games. It's really dependent on when the game is as refs try to do as many games a week as possible. I'm guessing the bigger conferences pay more then the smaller ones so that's why the "best" refs do the bigger conference games. Tv may even kick in some money too. But guys like Valentine and Hightower will do as many games a week as they can to get the most money. Always was annoying when people at games would complain about "A 10 refs"

You hit the nail on the head, though. The A10 paid a certain amount, and that amount was below the biggest conferences. So we ended up with a recurring pool of the same folks paid at below-top rates: "A-10 refs." I understand that they are not done by league, but the de facto result is the same.

[xubrew]

There are no such thing as Big East refs and A 10 refs. During multiple games last year we had some of the big name officials do our games. It's really dependent on when the game is as refs try to do as many games a week as possible. I'm guessing the bigger conferences pay more then the smaller ones so that's why the "best" refs do the bigger conference games. Tv may even kick in some money too. But guys like Valentine and Hightower will do as many games a week as they can to get the most money. Always was annoying when people at games would complain about "A 10 refs"


^^^^Correct.

[SM#24]

A10 refs suck, Big East refs suck, Big Ten refs suck, and so on... basically all refs suck in the public's opinion.

So, since the higher profile leagues get the "better" refs because they pay more, and since the general consensus around here is the A10 refs are completely horrible (even though it's an upper third league), think of a Saturday when pretty much the vast majority of teams are playing, can you even begin to imagine what's going on in the Big South, SWAC, American East, NEC games ?
It must be total anarchy.

[Stephen FriarFan]

Hello folks hope the summer is going well, Can't waite for basketball but don't want to rush summer either. The Dunk is funny,its either very tough to play in or if you hit it while the students are out, or a poor Non conf. team it can be very quiet.

Any way hope all are well, S.N.D- still no dayton...

[PMI]

There are no such thing as Big East refs and A 10 refs. During multiple games last year we had some of the big name officials do our games. It's really dependent on when the game is as refs try to do as many games a week as possible. I'm guessing the bigger conferences pay more then the smaller ones so that's why the "best" refs do the bigger conference games. Tv may even kick in some money too. But guys like Valentine and Hightower will do as many games a week as they can to get the most money. Always was annoying when people at games would complain about "A 10 refs"

True, but you begin to see a lot of the same refs in certain conferences, and it didn't take an expert to notice the difference in how games were officiated in the Big East versus in the A10, for the most part. In Big East games, guys were allowed to play a LOT more physical on the whole. A10 games have always tended to feature more inconsistent officiating. Watching a lot of both conferences (especially when you can be there in person), it's definitely something that has stuck out.

[casualfan]

True, but you begin to see a lot of the same refs in certain conferences, and it didn't take an expert to notice the difference in how games were officiated in the Big East versus in the A10, for the most part. In Big East games, guys were allowed to play a LOT more physical on the whole. A10 games have always tended to feature more inconsistent officiating. Watching a lot of both conferences (especially when you can be there in person), it's definitely something that has stuck out.

This is correct. The Big East traditionally paid more to their refs than any other conference you consistently see the same guys reffing Big East games. Since they are independent contractors they then fill in the gaps of their schedule with work for other conferences, but since the Big East paid so well you'd consistently see the same guys.