Zimmerman Trial (Now NSFW)

[bobbiemcgee]

Anybody tuning in? The Prosecution's Star witness on today. Made me cringe for America's future.

[MaurerHigh]

I stopped caring after that pathetic knock-knock joke.

[mohr5150]

That was painful to watch this afternoon, but I couldn't stop. That young lady totally confused me. I couldn't tell if she was just putting on some type of act or if she was that socially awkward. The patience shown by both lawyers with her was amazing. I would have blown up on her about ten times during the cross examination, either for not listening, not speaking clearly, or for the attitude she had. I don't think she showed an ounce of care about being in the middle of a murder trial for the murder of one of her supposed close friends.

[GoMuskies]

I just want it to be over. The fact that THIS case has gotten this much attention is nuts.

[Boro Muskie]

I completely agree, very cringeworthy. The news indicated she is a 19 year old that just completed her Jr. year in high school. I was a 19 year old that just finished my sophomore year at X. Cross-examination today will completely break her down.

[Muskie]

I completely agree, very cringeworthy. The news indicated she is a 19 year old that just completed her Jr. year in high school. I was a 19 year old that just finished my sophomore year at X. Cross-examination today will completely break her down.

Someone apparently "sanitized" her twitter account last night. Took down a bunch of references to getting drunk and high. Also had some references to the case earlier this year.

[Mrs. Garrett]

Someone apparently "sanitized" her twitter account last night. Took down a bunch of references to getting drunk and high. Also had some references to the case earlier this year.

I'm sure none of us were ever drunk or high at 19.

[Muskie]

I'm sure none of us were ever drunk or high at 19.

Most of us weren't involved in a high profile murder trial where a considerable amount of time is being devoted to her credibility and ability to recall things she said previously. I also find it weird she did it during the trial and not months ago?

[Muskie]

Apparently this witness also can't read cursive (she's 19). I realize we're no longer teaching cursive to small children... but sheesh.

[Mrs. Garrett]

Apparently this witness also can't read cursive (she's 19). I realize we're no longer teaching cursive to small children... but sheesh.

Doesn't change what she heard on the phone that night. Which was Zimmerman playing cops and robbers. All he had to do was stay in his car and wait for the police. Her education level is irrelevant.

[Juice]

Doesn't change what she heard on the phone that night. Which was Zimmerman playing cops and robbers. All he had to do was stay in his car and wait for the police. Her education level is irrelevant.

She lied on the stand, she had no credibility.

[mohr5150]

This lawyer is an absolute dick. He is attempting to play her obvious lower intelligence level against her. I don't blame her for being a bitch. I'm glad I'm not a lawyer. I wouldn't be able to put up with this kind of bullshit. He's not trying to get the facts of the case, he's just trying to screw with her head and make her lose it so she loses credibility. She did screw up by saying she didn't watch the news but then admitted to watching it after she found out she was on it.

[Muskie]

Doesn't change what she heard on the phone that night. Which was Zimmerman playing cops and robbers. All he had to do was stay in his car and wait for the police. Her education level is irrelevant.
I guess that depends on which version you're talking about. She seems to remember different things about this call every time she is asked.

[Mrs. Garrett]

Zimmerman never should have gotten out of his car. He's not a cop. Let the police do their job. He called 911. That's where his involvement should have ended.

[LadyMuskie]

This lawyer is an absolute dick. He is attempting to play her obvious lower intelligence level against her. I don't blame her for being a bitch. I'm glad I'm not a lawyer. I wouldn't be able to put up with this kind of bullshit. He's not trying to get the facts of the case, he's just trying to screw with her head and make her lose it so she loses credibility. She did screw up by saying she didn't watch the news but then admitted to watching it after she found out she was on it.

Her credibility is just as important as the "facts" because her lack of credibility might mean that her "facts" aren't the facts at all. She supposedly wrote the letter she was asked to read in court, and yet she can't read cursive. So, how did she write it? Add that to the other things she keeps changing about her testimony, and it starts to add up that she's either lying or a terrible "eye-witness" in which case the jury shouldn't rely on her testimony to determine the events of that evening. Eye-witness testimony is notoriously unreliable in any event, but since she can't seem to keep her stories straight, and even admitted to lying under oath, I think she's one of the worst witnesses we're going to see. She's making Kato Kaelin look and sound like a rocket scientist.



That said, I think this lawyer might be brilliant. I think the knock knock joke was a strategy to set up Zimmerman for the appeals process by claiming his lawyer was a first-class moron and didn't serve his client properly. Why else would anyone, in their right mind, when a life is on the line, tell a knock knock joke during opening statements?

[GoMuskies]

That said, I think this lawyer might be brilliant. I think the knock knock joke was a strategy to set up Zimmerman for the appeals process by claiming his lawyer was a first-class moron and didn't serve his client properly. Why else would anyone, in their right mind, when a life is on the line, tell a knock knock joke during opening statements?

The Chewbacca defense worked. Why not the "knock knock" defense?

[XU 87]

never mind.

[mohr5150]

Her credibility is just as important as the "facts" because her lack of credibility might mean that her "facts" aren't the facts at all. She supposedly wrote the letter she was asked to read in court, and yet she can't read cursive. So, how did she write it? Add that to the other things she keeps changing about her testimony, and it starts to add up that she's either lying or a terrible "eye-witness" in which case the jury shouldn't rely on her testimony to determine the events of that evening. Eye-witness testimony is notoriously unreliable in any event, but since she can't seem to keep her stories straight, and even admitted to lying under oath, I think she's one of the worst witnesses we're going to see. She's making Kato Kaelin look and sound like a rocket scientist.



That said, I think this lawyer might be brilliant. I think the knock knock joke was a strategy to set up Zimmerman for the appeals process by claiming his lawyer was a first-class moron and didn't serve his client properly. Why else would anyone, in their right mind, when a life is on the line, tell a knock knock joke during opening statements?


She didn't write the letter. She said her friend wrote the letter while she told her what to write. That was over a year ago. Obviously she didn't memorize what she wrote, so she couldn't read it.

[bobbiemcgee]

Bring back the Schaefer penmanship awards!

[LadyMuskie]

She didn't write the letter. She said her friend wrote the letter while she told her what to write. That was over a year ago. Obviously she didn't memorize what she wrote, so she couldn't read it.

That's what she's saying now, but originally she said that she wrote the letter. Then, when she couldn't read it she changed her testimony from "I wrote it" to "My friend wrote it, but I totally told her what to say and then signed it." Definitely makes her a credible witness! Nothing shady there at all.

[bobbiemcgee]

She lied on the stand, she had no credibility.

She did have a problem deciding what her NAME is.

[Smails]

Zimmerman never should have gotten out of his car. He's not a cop. Let the police do their job. He called 911. That's where his involvement should have ended.

This is true, but it has nothing to do with whether or not he's a murderer.

[boozehound]

This is true, but it has nothing to do with whether or not he's a murderer.

If he is not guilty of murder can he be guilty of a lesser charge?

If you want to protect your family / property with deadly force I am all for that. Cruising around playing Police Officer I am not a fan of. At a minimum it sounds like he created a situation that ended in the death of another person. That is kind of half-assed self defense.

If I walk into a biker bar and call everyone a 'fag' then open fire when somebody assaults me is that 'self defense'?

I think murder is a little harsh in this case, but maybe some time of manslaugher charge is appropriate.

[More Cowbell]

my understanding is that the prosecution is stuck with murder. However, he could plead down to manslaughter if it was not going his way.

[casualfan]

If I walk into a biker bar and call everyone a 'fag' then open fire when somebody assaults me is that 'self defense'?

.

nope. no conceal and carry allowed in bars.

[ammtd34]

nope. no conceal and carry allowed in bars.

In Ohio you can.

[nuts4xu]

At a minimum it sounds like he created a situation that ended in the death of another person. That is kind of half-assed self defense.


No doubt. Zimmerman followed the kid, the kid called 911, Zimmerman called 911 and was told to back off. He doesn't, the kid gets freaked out by this cracker following him, and kicks the living shit out of him.

This is normal behavior for someone being followed by a crazy vigilante cracker. I would have beat his ass myself....then he would have shot me to death.

Self Defense my Irish Ass!

[casualfan]

In Ohio you can.

You are correct. I forgot that got passed last year.

[coasterville95]

I haven't been glued to the case.

However, just from the little bit I have heard in the media, it sounds like the "make the prosecution's witnesses look like total idiots" defense may be the best one they have. They keep rounding back to the fact that his directive in this community watch program is to observe and report. No more. The best he can hope for is to discredit the prosectution witnesses, the udge already threw out expert audio analysis of the 911 calls, boil the thing down to a he-said/he-said situation, where one of the two isn't available for further questioning. Plant a huge cloud of doubt in the jury's mind. "Can you REALLY vote to convict when you don't know what all really went down before the gunshot"?

I do like the idea the knock-knock joke was planted in the case to demonstrate an incompetent attourney should he lose and need to appeal. The only hitch there - what lawyer would open themselves up to potential sanctions and disbarment?

Is our "star witness" the lady I saw on the news last night that looked like she would rather be ANYWHERE else than in that courtroom? The ones whose attitude towards the defense attorney could be called "hostile" and I'm not sure it's even that friendly. I almost fell over laughing at her reaction when the judge asked "About how much longer do you expect your cross-examination to take?" and the lawyer said somethign like 1 or 2 more days. Even if I only had one more question, if it were 5pm at a recess and I could further demoralize the opponents star witness like that, I'd probably go for it!

And somwhere - the truth is washing into the Atlantic Ocean.

BTW: Re: cursive writing - last fall my family took me to the Old Schoolhouse (Camp Dennison??) for my birthday dinner. Part of the theme of the place is the menu is on the chalkboard - written in cursive. I had great pleasure watching another table where two teens were with their family and had to admit they couldn't read the menu!!! The delicious irony! (Oh, and pointer - go there on a Sunday during a Bengals game - no line!)

[boozehound]

No doubt. Zimmerman followed the kid, the kid called 911, Zimmerman called 911 and was told to back off. He doesn't, the kid gets freaked out by this cracker following him, and kicks the living shit out of him.

This is normal behavior for someone being followed by a crazy vigilante cracker. I would have beat his ass myself....then he would have shot me to death.

Self Defense my Irish Ass!

Exactly. There is the potential for a dangerous precedent here regarding vigilantism and 'self defense'. I would probably feel a little differently if George Zimmerman had observed Trayvon Martin trying to break into a home or commit some other crime and had intervened. As far as I know he didn't. Assuming Martin did attack Zimmerman that seems (to me) to be a somewhat reasonable response toward being accosted at night by an armed vigilante. He didn't know who George Zimmerman was or what Zimmerman was going to do to him. Zimmerman went out and actively created a situation in which he had to 'defend himself' with deadly force against an unarmed kid. We, as a society, cannot have people running around doing that.

[Mrs. Garrett]

Exactly. There is the potential for a dangerous precedent here regarding vigilantism and 'self defense'. I would probably feel a little differently if George Zimmerman had observed Trayvon Martin trying to break into a home or commit some other crime and had intervened. As far as I know he didn't. Assuming Martin did attack Zimmerman that seems (to me) to be a somewhat reasonable response toward being accosted at night by an armed vigilante. He didn't know who George Zimmerman was or what Zimmerman was going to do to him. Zimmerman went out and actively created a situation in which he had to 'defend himself' with deadly force against an unarmed kid. We, as a society, cannot have people running around doing that.


If I were Treyvon Martin, I probably would have believed something bad was going to happen to me. First, I'm being followed, then the guy gets out of his car and comes at me. He had every right to be scared and suspect something bad was going to happen to him.

[XUFan09]

Exactly. There is the potential for a dangerous precedent here regarding vigilantism and 'self defense'. I would probably feel a little differently if George Zimmerman had observed Trayvon Martin trying to break into a home or commit some other crime and had intervened. As far as I know he didn't. Assuming Martin did attack Zimmerman that seems (to me) to be a somewhat reasonable response toward being accosted at night by an armed vigilante. He didn't know who George Zimmerman was or what Zimmerman was going to do to him. Zimmerman went out and actively created a situation in which he had to 'defend himself' with deadly force against an unarmed kid. We, as a society, cannot have people running around doing that.

Yup, I'm with you on that, and like Nuts, I would not have been okay with someone who kept following me like that. If they persisted, at the very least I would have slugged them, and I'm not really a violent person.

I don't know one way or the other about whether second degree murder is the proper charge, but if you SHOOT someone for resorting to fists after you've been friggin stalking him, you at least deserve manslaughter.

[bobbiemcgee]

Prosecution calls witness that supports GZ's story. Only eye witness. Grass stains on TM's knees could also be a problem.

[blobfan]

What really makes me think Zimmerman is guilty is I haven't heard him or anyone else claim that he announced himself as neighborhood watch. I saw a copy of the video made when he took police around and gave his version of what happened. He had a lot of time to stalk Trayvon.

And while the 'star witness' may not be too bright and may have mixed up facts or even convinced herself that she heard things like the rolling in the grass that she didn't actually hear, one thing she was consistent about was that Trayvon was upset about some guy following him. It supports the contention that he was acting in self defense, not Zimmerman.

[Smails]

Is Zimmerman going to take the stand? If so, it will be interesting to hear the prosecution cut into his story. I'm pretty sure he contends that he was actually walking back to his car when Martin assaulted him, got the upper hand and threatended to kill him and that's when he shot him.

[GoMuskies]

I'd say there's about a 0% chance of Zimmerman taking the stand.

[Smails]

So me's not a lawyer when I ask: How can the defense create their version of what happened for the jury without hearing from Zimmerman? Police reports?

[DC Muskie]

I'm not really following the trail, but are grass stains on Martin's pants a good thing or ba thing for Zimmerman?

[GoMuskies]

I'm not really following the trail, but are grass stains on Martin's pants a good thing or ba thing for Zimmerman?

Brown stains on Zimmerman's pants would have been great for his self-defense claim.

[Smails]

I'm not really following the trail, but are grass stains on Martin's pants a good thing or ba thing for Zimmerman?

Probably a good thing as the defense is trying to prove that Zimmerman was receiving a beat down and feared for his life...grass stains on the knees would potentially indicate being in a dominant position. Eye witness today testified that he saw martin on top of zimmerman in a 'ground and pound' position raining blows on top of him.

[Mrs. Garrett]

Probably a good thing as the defense is trying to prove that Zimmerman was receiving a beat down and feared for his life...grass stains on the knees would potentially indicate being in a dominant position. Eye witness today testified that he saw martin on top of zimmerman in a 'ground and pound' position reigning blows on top of him.

No wonder he needed a gun. Sounds like a giant p*ssy.

[bobbiemcgee]

You can shoot people in Florida if you can prove you were "in fear of losing your life". They don't even have to touch you.

[Mrs. Garrett]

You can shoot people in Florida if you can prove you were "in fear of losing your life". They don't even have to touch you.

Well then I guess it's too bad Treyvon didn't have a gun to shoot first because he should have been in fear of losing his life based on Zimmerman's actions.

[Strange Brew]

This is normal behavior for someone being followed by a crazy vigilante cracker. I would have beat his ass myself....then he would have shot me to death.

Self Defense my Irish Ass!

And if you struck someone for following you and you were not shot you rightly would be charged with assault.

[GoMuskies]

And if you struck someone for following you and you were not shot you rightly would be charged with assault.

And battery

[GoMuskies]

You can shoot people in Florida if you can prove you were "in fear of losing your life". They don't even have to touch you.

You can use deadly force in any state if you have an objectively reasonable fear of death or bodily injury (though some will only allow it if you do not have a reasonable avenue of escape) whether you are touched or not. That's not just Florida.

[Juice]

You can use deadly force in any state if you have an objectively reasonable fear of death or bodily injury (though some will only allow it if you do not have a reasonable avenue of escape) whether you are touched or not. That's not just Florida.

Florida's standard for the use of deadly force is even lower than most states.

I know this is a wikipedia entry but this is a pretty good synopsis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

[DC Muskie]

Zimmerman is not going to be convicted. The prosecution is putting together a pretty terrible case.

[LadyMuskie]

Honestly, I'm beginning to wonder if both sides aren't trying to outdo the spectacle that was the OJ Simpson trial. I've never seen such half-assing and incompetence from attorneys in one place, and I worked with attorneys and politicians for 11 years. Half-assing and incompetence are tricks of the trade for lawyers.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Half-assing and incompetence are tricks of the trade for lawyers.

Hey, I resemble that remark.

In all seriousness, I have learned that if I prepare for a trial 75% of what I think I should have to really kill it, I'm, at least, 10-15 times more prepared than 95% of other lawyers. Sad, but true.

[Muskie]

I'm convinced the special prosecutor was put under pressure to file and he's just putting all his cards out on the table. That way if Zimmerman isn't convicted he can say it was the jury's decision.

[Muskie]

Hey, I resemble that remark.

In all seriousness, I have learned that if I prepare for a trial 75% of what I think I should have to really kill it, I'm, at least, 10-15 times more prepared than 95% of other lawyers. Sad, but true.

I have the same experience. I'm not sure what it says about our profession.

[XULucho27]

I have the same experience. I'm not sure what it says about our profession.

It says that a lot of lawyers coast on either their client's inability to understand the nuances of law or, in the case of government lawyers, their employer's reluctance to fire lazy, inept attorneys for fear of reprisal in the form of lawsuits. I'm the latter - a prosecutor, not lazy that is - and I see it everyday.

It's an issue endemic to the practice of law that is not going anywhere anytime soon. I agree with you guys, this trial is particularly terrible.

[LadyMuskie]

It says that a lot of lawyers coast on either their client's inability to understand the nuances of law or, in the case of government lawyers, their employer's reluctance to fire lazy, inept attorneys for fear of reprisal in the form of lawsuits. I'm the latter - a prosecutor, not lazy that is - and I see it everyday.

It's an issue endemic to the practice of law that is not going anywhere anytime soon. I agree with you guys, this trial is particularly terrible.

To paraphrase - lawyers are incompetent and half-ass it all the time, almost as if half-assing it and incompetence were tricks of the trade! :wink:

[xavierj]

Just curious. If he had killed me or even my son who is a different color than Martin, would anyone even care? I think the answer is obvious and that to me is an even bigger problem. Ths whole case is terrible but the real isuues behind it are even more of a problem.

[GoMuskies]

The incompetence and half-assing of my colleagues has allowed me to "thrive" despite my limited competence and 3/4-assing it. Thanks fellas!

[GoMuskies]

Just curious. If he had killed me or even my son who is a different color than Martin, would anyone even care? I think the answer is obvious and that to me is an even bigger problem. Ths whole case is terrible but the real isuues behind it are even more of a problem.

The circus surrounding this case is amazing.

[Masterofreality]

Is any lawyer less than 152 years old......

.....based on their "billable hours"?

[paulxu]

Jeanne Tripplehorn and Holly Hunter.

[bobbiemcgee]

y'all sound like creepy ass cracka's

[bjf123]

Just curious. If he had killed me or even my son who is a different color than Martin, would anyone even care? I think the answer is obvious and that to me is an even bigger problem. Ths whole case is terrible but the real isuues behind it are even more of a problem.

Same thing if Zimmerman was black. The story wouldn't be news in FL, let alone the rest of the country.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[boozehound]

It seems to be looking more and more like Zimmerman is going to be found "Not Guilty". The apparent definition of the law seems to side with Zimmerman as well. There definitely doesn't seem to be evidence 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that he is guilty of murder.

I still think we need to prevent people from loading up a gun and playing police officer though. Neighborhood watch organiztions are one thing. Grabbing your gun and leaving your vehicle to confront someone is another thing, that I think should be left to trained law enforcement officers.

[JTG]

Sorry, I can't watch any of these trials on tv. It's a total circus, and frankly I could care less.

[bobbiemcgee]

It seems to be looking more and more like Zimmerman is going to be found "Not Guilty". The apparent definition of the law seems to side with Zimmerman as well. There definitely doesn't seem to be evidence 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that he is guilty of murder.

I still think we need to prevent people from loading up a gun and playing police officer though. Neighborhood watch organiztions are one thing. Grabbing your gun and leaving your vehicle to confront someone is another thing, that I think should be left to trained law enforcement officers.

“On the issue of injuries, though, when you talk about that with the class and your understanding of the law is that the focused is what’s going on in the person’s mind, not whether they have actually been injured,” West argued. “It’s the fear of the injury, is it not?”

“It’s imminent injury,” Carter explained. “Or imminent fear. So the fact alone that there isn’t an injury doesn’t necessarily mean that the person did not have a real apprehension of fear. The fact that there were injuries have a tendency to show or support that that person had a reasonable apprehension of fear.”

“You don’t have to wait until you’re almost dead until you can defend yourself?” West asked.

“No, I would advise you probably don’t do that,” Carter replied.

-Capt. Alexis Carter testimony

[DC Muskie]

I don't see how you convict this guy.

That being said, Zimmerman probably should move to Montana for the rest of his life.

[XULucho27]

The circus continues.

George Zimmerman Trial Interrupted By Trolls Who Use Skype (http://deadspin.com/george-zimmerman-trial-interrupted-by-trolls-who-use-sk-658025291)

[GoMuskies]

He could move to Kansas. We like white Hispanics out here. He might prefer jail, though.

[DC Muskie]

The circus continues.

George Zimmerman Trial Interrupted By Trolls Who Use Skype (http://deadspin.com/george-zimmerman-trial-interrupted-by-trolls-who-use-sk-658025291)

Jesus.

[bobbiemcgee]

I don't see how you convict this guy.

That being said, Zimmerman probably should move to Montana for the rest of his life.

He and Casey Anthony can carpool out there.

[XU 87]

It seems to be looking more and more like Zimmerman is going to be found "Not Guilty". The apparent definition of the law seems to side with Zimmerman as well. There definitely doesn't seem to be evidence 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that he is guilty of murder.

I still think we need to prevent people from loading up a gun and playing police officer though. Neighborhood watch organiztions are one thing. Grabbing your gun and leaving your vehicle to confront someone is another thing, that I think should be left to trained law enforcement officers.

I will agree with you except on one thing. I don't think there is sufficient evidence showing that Zimmerman confronted Martin. I don't think we will ever know what exactly happened here.

But when you say "confronted", does that mean "assaulted" or does that mean "Hey kid, what are you doing here"? I really doubt that he just went and assaulted Martin. I can see that he said something to Martin, which would not negate self-defense.

[boozehound]

I will agree with you except on one thing. I don't think there is sufficient evidence showing that Zimmerman confronted Martin. I don't think we will ever know what exactly happened here.

But when you say "confronted", does that mean "assaulted" or does that mean "Hey kid, what are you doing here"? I really doubt that he just went and assaulted Martin. I can see that he said something to Martin, which would not negate self-defense.

When I say 'confronted' I mean "Hey kid, what you are doing here?" He is not a police officer. He called the police and they told him not to confront the suspect in any way. He then exited his vehicle to confront the kid about what he was doing. I don't think either side is disputing those events, although I haven't followed the case that closely. He is not trained to deal with this type of situation in the same way a police officer is, which is why he shouldn't be playing cop.

The bottom line for me is that I'm instantly suspicious of anybody who wants to load up a gun and then sit in his truck watching for people to commit crimes. I don't believe that to be behavior that many balanced individuals engage in. In fact, I have never known anybody who engaged in behavior like that.

[XU 87]

When I say 'confronted' I mean "Hey kid, what you are doing here?" He is not a police officer. He called the police and they told him not to confront the suspect in any way. He then exited his vehicle to confront the kid about what he was doing. I don't think either side is disputing those events, although I haven't followed the case that closely. He is not trained to deal with this type of situation in the same way a police officer is, which is why he shouldn't be playing cop.

The bottom line for me is that I'm instantly suspicious of anybody who wants to load up a gun and then sit in his truck watching for people to commit crimes. I don't believe that to be behavior that many balanced individuals engage in. In fact, I have never known anybody who engaged in behavior like that.

There's no doubt in my mind that he was playing policeman in some respects. That may not have been the smartest thing to do, but it's not a crime. And if he asked Martin "What are you doing here" and Martin got pissed off, starting kicking Zimerman's ass, and Zimmerman shot him while Zimmerman was on his back, that's not a crime either. As I see it, the only way Zimmerman loses if the jury thinks that Zimmerman physically confronted (assaulted) Martin, then Martin fought back and started kicking Zimmerman's ass and then Zimmerman shot him. I don't think you can start the fight and then claim self-defense. But I don't think there's any credible proof that Zimmerman started the physical confrontation.

One for any criminal lawyers out there- suppose Zimmerman started the physical confrontation, Martin kicks his ass, Zimmerman gives up the fight and is flat on his back crying for help, but Martin continues to kick Zimmerman's ass to the point where Zimmerman fears for his life. Can Zimmerman shoot him at that point and claim self-defense? In short, if a guy starts a fight, does that mean the other guy can now beat to death the guy who started it?

[GoMuskies]

It's all statute-specific, but generally I think you get your right to self-defense back once you have clearly withdrawn from the physical confrontation.

Good luck proving that without some really good witnesses or a videotape, though.

[boozehound]

There's no doubt in my mind that he was playing policeman in some respects. That may not have been the smartest thing to do, but it's not a crime. And if he asked Martin "What are you doing here" and Martin got pissed off, starting kicking Zimerman's ass, and Zimmerman shot him while Zimmerman was on his back, that's not a crime either. As I see it, the only way Zimmerman loses if the jury thinks that Zimmerman physically confronted (assaulted) Martin, then Martin fought back and started kicking Zimmerman's ass and then Zimmerman shot him. I don't think you can start the fight and then claim self-defense. But I don't think there's any credible proof that Zimmerman started the physical confrontation.

One for any criminal lawyers out there- suppose Zimmerman started the physical confrontation, Martin kicks his ass, Zimmerman gives up the fight and is flat on his back crying for help, but Martin continues to kick Zimmerman's ass to the point where Zimmerman fears for his life. Can Zimmerman shoot him at that point and claim self-defense? In short, if a guy starts a fight, does that mean the other guy can now beat to death the guy who started it?

I don't disagree with anything you said. I think he will be found not guilty, mostly because I think he probably is not guilty under the definition of the law.

I also think he's a super-creepy dude though.

[XU 87]

It's all statute-specific, but generally I think you get your right to self-defense back once you have clearly withdrawn from the physical confrontation.

Good luck proving that without some really good witnesses or a videotape, though.

I think that's correct about self-defense.

There was a witness who testified that he saw that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, who was crying for help, and it appeared that Martin was knocking Zimmerman's head back and forth on the concrete. (The witness could only see Martin's hands moving up and down but couldn't see Zimmerman's head hitting the concrete; but I think that is a reasonable interpretation of what was going on). So if that's the case, it seems that Zimmerman can use self-defense at that point.

[boozehound]

I think that's correct about self-defense.

There was a witness who testified that he saw that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, who was crying for help, and it appeared that Martin was knocking Zimmerman's head back and forth on the concrete. (The witness could only see Martin's hands moving up and down but couldn't see Zimmerman's head hitting the concrete; but I think that is a reasonable interpretation of what was going on). So if that's the case, it seems that Zimmerman can use self-defense at that point.

I guess all this is why they want you to wait for the actual cops to get there. So you don't get your ass kicked by a high school kid and then end up having to shoot him.

[paulxu]

I am purposefully not watching or reading anything about this trial except this thread.
First choice seems like a good one.
When/if they acquit this guy, stand by for local community unrest.

[bobbiemcgee]

Defense.....err Prosecution rests.

[PM Thor]

If I'm being followed by some weird guy, I'm calling the cops, not turning around to find out what's up, but that's just me.

[Snipe]

If Travon Martin was beating me and bashing my head into the concrete and I had a gun, I would have shot him and I wouldn't be ashamed of it. If Travon Martin was beating my wife I would hope she could have killed him instead.

I think Travon was a thug. Toxicology reports seem to indicate that he was on drugs. His social networking indicates that he was a drug dealer. One tweet on his twitter account involved assaulting a bus driver. I don't think that can be proven in court though, but I tend to believe it. He has youtubes of fights, and it appears that he liked to beat people. He was suspended from school on multiple occasions, and one looks like burglary and possession of stolen property when he was suspended for the bag of women't jewlry and a "burglary tool". But that didn't result in a criminal offense, because the superinetendent of schools decided that they needed a lower crime rate for blacks in the Miami-Dade school district. That is pure political correctness. Let us not forget that. If he was held to a higher standard it would be much more likely that he would be alive today. The soft bigotry of low expectations played out to the fullest.

And lets not forget his last crime, which was in my opinion a felonious assault and battery against George Zimmerman.

Travon was under school suspension when he was killed by Zimmerman. It looks as though he was spending the nights in Sanford because his mother gave up because she couldn't control him anymore. He appears to be a very troubled and violent young man, who was into guns, drugs and drug dealing, fighting, burglary, assault and guns. To me it seems this was only a matter of time, and Zimmerman probably saved the world of many future victims.

The picture of the 11 year old Travon doesn't really tell the story. It is crazy that the main stream media led the story that way, and it influenced a lot of people. It is also crazy to call Zimmerman white, when he identified as Hispanic, had black blood running through his veins and was just as white as Obama. Obama famously inserted himself into the political fray (always a bad idea whether you like either side or not), and he said that "If I had a son, he would look like Travon". What was left unsaid or unoted is that Zimmerman looks more like Obama than Travon.

Zimmerman on the other hand was a respected member of his community before Travon. He fought hard to expose police corruption in the beating of a black homeless man by the son of someone high ranked on the force. He organized his community, he was a community organizer. He called the cops himself on that fateful night, and what despotic racial Hispanic killer would do just that? If you were really looking for a mark, would you call the cops? It is absurd. Travon was 100 yards from his newfound home when he passed George Zimmerman the first time, when he was on the phone. The attack happened minutes later only 30 yards away from Zimmerman's vehicle. Zimmerman was told to call it off and go back on the phone, and he said he di. The measurements support his testimony.

Zimmerman suspected that Martin was a criminal. I think that Martin was a criminal. Zimmerman thought he looked high and on drugs. I think he was high and on drugs. People think that Martin was profiled. We are all profiled everyday, many times by government officials. It appears that Zimmerman's profiling was correct. Travon was a criminal and toxicology points that was on drugs, both in his blood and urine.

So who do we believe? I believe Zimmerman. Just from the facts. You don't have to believe him or like him though I tend to respect him. All you have to do is have reasonable doubt.

We live in a multicultural society, and the changing demographics were on notice in this trial. One witness needed an interpreter even though she has lived her for 12 years. 12 Years! She can't speak English! Expect that more and more in our criminal trials. I have talked about the changing Demographics for some time, only now is it popular to talk about it politically. Well, these changing demographics mean much more changes than that.

What about his Haitian girlfriend or "girl that was a friend"(that barely knew him in the past 5 years). She was supposed to be fluent in 3 languages, but she could not read her letter and perjured herself on the stand. She was the lead witness. I don't think she will face perjury charges even though her story has changed because she may be retarded. Retarded in America is a base point of a 70 IQ. Liberals argue all the time we shouldn't execute those people, I want to cut an agreement that they shouldn't be allowed to testify either. It was difficult to watch that blob of human tissue try to respond. Welcome to our new demographic destiny. I think diversity makes us stronger.

[DC Muskie]

Wow Snipe. Just wow.

Trayvon Martin was a thug who was killed thankfully by George Zimmerman.

I'm surprised you haven't shot anyone in your neighborhood, since you are most likely surrounded by people just like Martin.

[xubrew]

If Travon Martin was beating me and bashing my head into the concrete and I had a gun, I would have shot him and I wouldn't be ashamed of it. If Travon Martin was beating my wife I would hope she could have killed him instead.

I think Travon was a thug. Toxicology reports seem to indicate that he was on drugs. His social networking indicates that he was a drug dealer. One tweet on his twitter account involved assaulting a bus driver. I don't think that can be proven in court though, but I tend to believe it. He has youtubes of fights, and it appears that he liked to beat people. He was suspended from school on multiple occasions, and one looks like burglary and possession of stolen property when he was suspended for the bag of women't jewlry and a "burglary tool". But that didn't result in a criminal offense, because the superinetendent of schools decided that they needed a lower crime rate for blacks in the Miami-Dade school district. That is pure political correctness. Let us not forget that. If he was held to a higher standard it would be much more likely that he would be alive today. The soft bigotry of low expectations played out to the fullest.

And lets not forget his last crime, which was in my opinion a felonious assault and battery against George Zimmerman.

Travon was under school suspension when he was killed by Zimmerman. It looks as though he was spending the nights in Sanford because his mother gave up because she couldn't control him anymore. He appears to be a very troubled and violent young man, who was into guns, drugs and drug dealing, fighting, burglary, assault and guns. To me it seems this was only a matter of time, and Zimmerman probably saved the world of many future victims.

The picture of the 11 year old Travon doesn't really tell the story. It is crazy that the main stream media led the story that way, and it influenced a lot of people. It is also crazy to call Zimmerman white, when he identified as Hispanic, had black blood running through his veins and was just as white as Obama. Obama famously inserted himself into the political fray (always a bad idea whether you like either side or not), and he said that "If I had a son, he would look like Travon". What was left unsaid or unoted is that Zimmerman looks more like Obama than Travon.

Zimmerman on the other hand was a respected member of his community before Travon. He fought hard to expose police corruption in the beating of a black homeless man by the son of someone high ranked on the force. He organized his community, he was a community organizer. He called the cops himself on that fateful night, and what despotic racial Hispanic killer would do just that? If you were really looking for a mark, would you call the cops? It is absurd. Travon was 100 yards from his newfound home when he passed George Zimmerman the first time, when he was on the phone. The attack happened minutes later only 30 yards away from Zimmerman's vehicle. Zimmerman was told to call it off and go back on the phone, and he said he di. The measurements support his testimony.

Zimmerman suspected that Martin was a criminal. I think that Martin was a criminal. Zimmerman thought he looked high and on drugs. I think he was high and on drugs. People think that Martin was profiled. We are all profiled everyday, many times by government officials. It appears that Zimmerman's profiling was correct. Travon was a criminal and toxicology points that was on drugs, both in his blood and urine.

So who do we believe? I believe Zimmerman. Just from the facts. You don't have to believe him or like him though I tend to respect him. All you have to do is have reasonable doubt.

We live in a multicultural society, and the changing demographics were on notice in this trial. One witness needed an interpreter even though she has lived her for 12 years. 12 Years! She can't speak English! Expect that more and more in our criminal trials. I have talked about the changing Demographics for some time, only now is it popular to talk about it politically. Well, these changing demographics mean much more changes than that.

What about his Haitian girlfriend or "girl that was a friend"(that barely knew him in the past 5 years). She was supposed to be fluent in 3 languages, but she could not read her letter and perjured herself on the stand. She was the lead witness. I don't think she will face perjury charges even though her story has changed because she may be retarded. Retarded in America is a base point of a 70 IQ. Liberals argue all the time we shouldn't execute those people, I want to cut an agreement that they shouldn't be allowed to testify either. It was difficult to watch that blob of human tissue try to respond. Welcome to our new demographic destiny. I think diversity makes us stronger.

You can call Snipe a lot of things, and you can call this post a lot of things, but you cannot call him or his posts disingenuous.

[xubrew]

I'm surprised the NCAA has not weighed in on this. They need to cite Zimmerman for lack of institutional control and give him a show cause.

[muskiefan82]

I'm surprised the NCAA has not weighed in on this. They need to cite Zimmerman for lack of institutional control and give him a show cause.

They will. 3 months after everyone has forgotten about this. It's what they do.

[LadyMuskie]

If Travon Martin was beating me and bashing my head into the concrete and I had a gun, I would have shot him and I wouldn't be ashamed of it. If Travon Martin was beating my wife I would hope she could have killed him instead.

I think Travon was a thug. Toxicology reports seem to indicate that he was on drugs. His social networking indicates that he was a drug dealer. One tweet on his twitter account involved assaulting a bus driver. I don't think that can be proven in court though, but I tend to believe it. He has youtubes of fights, and it appears that he liked to beat people. He was suspended from school on multiple occasions, and one looks like burglary and possession of stolen property when he was suspended for the bag of women't jewlry and a "burglary tool". But that didn't result in a criminal offense, because the superinetendent of schools decided that they needed a lower crime rate for blacks in the Miami-Dade school district. That is pure political correctness. Let us not forget that. If he was held to a higher standard it would be much more likely that he would be alive today. The soft bigotry of low expectations played out to the fullest.

And lets not forget his last crime, which was in my opinion a felonious assault and battery against George Zimmerman.

Travon was under school suspension when he was killed by Zimmerman. It looks as though he was spending the nights in Sanford because his mother gave up because she couldn't control him anymore. He appears to be a very troubled and violent young man, who was into guns, drugs and drug dealing, fighting, burglary, assault and guns. To me it seems this was only a matter of time, and Zimmerman probably saved the world of many future victims.

The picture of the 11 year old Travon doesn't really tell the story. It is crazy that the main stream media led the story that way, and it influenced a lot of people. It is also crazy to call Zimmerman white, when he identified as Hispanic, had black blood running through his veins and was just as white as Obama. Obama famously inserted himself into the political fray (always a bad idea whether you like either side or not), and he said that "If I had a son, he would look like Travon". What was left unsaid or unoted is that Zimmerman looks more like Obama than Travon.

Zimmerman on the other hand was a respected member of his community before Travon. He fought hard to expose police corruption in the beating of a black homeless man by the son of someone high ranked on the force. He organized his community, he was a community organizer. He called the cops himself on that fateful night, and what despotic racial Hispanic killer would do just that? If you were really looking for a mark, would you call the cops? It is absurd. Travon was 100 yards from his newfound home when he passed George Zimmerman the first time, when he was on the phone. The attack happened minutes later only 30 yards away from Zimmerman's vehicle. Zimmerman was told to call it off and go back on the phone, and he said he di. The measurements support his testimony.

Zimmerman suspected that Martin was a criminal. I think that Martin was a criminal. Zimmerman thought he looked high and on drugs. I think he was high and on drugs. People think that Martin was profiled. We are all profiled everyday, many times by government officials. It appears that Zimmerman's profiling was correct. Travon was a criminal and toxicology points that was on drugs, both in his blood and urine.

So who do we believe? I believe Zimmerman. Just from the facts. You don't have to believe him or like him though I tend to respect him. All you have to do is have reasonable doubt.

We live in a multicultural society, and the changing demographics were on notice in this trial. One witness needed an interpreter even though she has lived her for 12 years. 12 Years! She can't speak English! Expect that more and more in our criminal trials. I have talked about the changing Demographics for some time, only now is it popular to talk about it politically. Well, these changing demographics mean much more changes than that.

What about his Haitian girlfriend or "girl that was a friend"(that barely knew him in the past 5 years). She was supposed to be fluent in 3 languages, but she could not read her letter and perjured herself on the stand. She was the lead witness. I don't think she will face perjury charges even though her story has changed because she may be retarded. Retarded in America is a base point of a 70 IQ. Liberals argue all the time we shouldn't execute those people, I want to cut an agreement that they shouldn't be allowed to testify either. It was difficult to watch that blob of human tissue try to respond. Welcome to our new demographic destiny. I think diversity makes us stronger.

I'm not sure the picture you paint of Trayvon Martin is incorrect. I don't think he was the angel his family and media portray him to have been.

However, I am certain that Zimmerman didn't have the right to be judge, jury and executioner because Martin was walking around the neighborhood. The police dispatcher told him to stay in the car, and he should have stayed in the car. Then, he wouldn't have been allegedly attacked by Martin and Martin wouldn't be dead. Vigilantes are just as bad as criminals. Civilized society shouldn't accept either.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I'm not sure the picture you paint of Trayvon Martin is incorrect. I don't think he was the angel his family and media portray him to have been.

However, I am certain that Zimmerman didn't have the right to be judge, jury and executioner because Martin was walking around the neighborhood. The police dispatcher told him to stay in the car, and he should have stayed in the car. Then, he wouldn't have been allegedly attacked by Martin and Martin wouldn't be dead. Vigilantes are just as bad as criminals. Civilized society shouldn't accept either.

This.

[waggy]

So Zimmerman doesn't have the right to walk thru his neighborhood, but Martin does? What a load of crap.

[Snipe]

Wow Snipe. Just wow.

Trayvon Martin was a thug who was killed thankfully by George Zimmerman.

I'm surprised you haven't shot anyone in your neighborhood, since you are most likely surrounded by people just like Martin.

My wife has the guns, I don't have one. I carry some mace, but have never had to use it. I know me some drug dealers and crack whores, some of them by name. I just ask of them not to do it on my property, and they generally respect that. My theory is that I am not the police or a their priest, and I could give a rats ass what they do as long as they don't do it on my property. If they commit crimes on my property, I will do what I can to get them arrested.

I once asked a drug dealer not to sell drugs in front of my house. He apologized and never did it again. Nice guy. They don't sell drugs in front of their own homes, and that is for a reason.

I don't patrol the neighborhood looking for crime. I take care of my own property and get the word out that if people are causing trouble on my property it is going to be trouble for them.

My favorite tactic is being their new best friend. If the corner boyz start hanging out and doing their transactions on one of my properties, I find a reason to do maintenance and then spend lots of time coming in and out of the building. I am careful to say hi and not to "disrespect" them. They can't stand my presence, and it tends to frighten away their customers. They soon learn that going into business with me being their new friend is a bad business model.

[Snipe]

I'm not sure the picture you paint of Trayvon Martin is incorrect. I don't think he was the angel his family and media portray him to have been.

However, I am certain that Zimmerman didn't have the right to be judge, jury and executioner because Martin was walking around the neighborhood. The police dispatcher told him to stay in the car, and he should have stayed in the car. Then, he wouldn't have been allegedly attacked by Martin and Martin wouldn't be dead. Vigilantes are just as bad as criminals. Civilized society shouldn't accept either.

I know lots of people that participate on neighborhood watch and attend community meetings. In Cincinnati we even have "Citizens on Patrol". They even have their own "squad car". I can imagine the disdain some of you would heep upon those "Cop wannabes". I have met tons of them and they are good people that want to make a difference. I think most people that ridicule Zimmerman probably live in comfortable neighborhoods. When your property starts getting broken into, destroyed and taken maybe you would reconsider.

His story is that he was going back to his vehicle, and the crime scene was only 30 yards from it, which supports his story. As for him being judge and jury, his skull was being repeatedly crushed into the concrete and the attacker was on top of him. I would have shot Travon Martin in a heartbeat if he was on top of me crushing my skull and saying that he was going to kill me. I find Zimmerman's account to be very believable. The police did too, which was why he was originally not charged with a crime. I believe he will be vindicated and found not guilty, I only hope we don't see a riot in the African American community.

[xubrew]

I know lots of people that participate on neighborhood watch and attend community meetings. In Cincinnati we even have "Citizens on Patrol". They even have their own "squad car". I can imagine the disdain some of you would heep upon those "Cop wannabes". I have met tons of them and they are good people that want to make a difference. I think most people that ridicule Zimmerman probably live in comfortable neighborhoods. When your property starts getting broken into, destroyed and taken maybe you would reconsider.

His story is that he was going back to his vehicle, and the crime scene was only 30 yards from it, which supports his story. As for him being judge and jury, his skull was being repeatedly crushed into the concrete and the attacker was on top of him. I would have shot Travon Martin in a heartbeat if he was on top of me crushing my skull and saying that he was going to kill me. I find Zimmerman's account to be very believable. The police did too, which was why he was originally not charged with a crime. I believe he will be vindicated and found not guilty, I only hope we don't see a riot in the African American community.

Would the "Citizens on Patrol" have handled it the way Zimmerman did??

I don't think he's guilty of murder because I don't think there was a premeditated plot to kill him. I do think he's a rather crappy night watchman, though, who could have avoided this whole thing had he just listened to the cops. When the cops tell a good night watchman that they'll handle it, said night watchman will cease doing anything. Being a shitty night watchman that is unnecessarily and detrimentally confrontational after being told not to be is not the same as murder, though.

[bobbiemcgee]

Profiling is not against the law. You can't send somebody to jail for it. Cement is a weapon. GZ only needs to establish he was in "imminent danger". The Prosecution has to prove GZ committed "depraved" murder. Haven't seen it so far. He was, at the very least, way overcharged. We like to do that in Florida.
Also, the 18th District here never charged him. They fired the Police Chief with 30 yrs. experience bcuz he wouldn't. Our Asshole Gov. got involved and had the 4th District charge him (Jacksonville) with a "Special Prosecutor" after Sharpton and Jesse did their parade thru town. 2 Cops just testified that Martin's Dad said he said NO when asked if it was TM's voice on the tape.

Tragic tale, indeed. No one will ever know who started the fight.

[LA Muskie]

I'm not sure the picture you paint of Trayvon Martin is incorrect. I don't think he was the angel his family and media portray him to have been.

However, I am certain that Zimmerman didn't have the right to be judge, jury and executioner because Martin was walking around the neighborhood. The police dispatcher told him to stay in the car, and he should have stayed in the car. Then, he wouldn't have been allegedly attacked by Martin and Martin wouldn't be dead. Vigilantes are just as bad as criminals. Civilized society shouldn't accept either.
Well said, Lady. Well, well said.

[nuts4xu]

I do think he's a rather crappy night watchman, though, who could have avoided this whole thing had he just listened to the cops. When the cops tell a good night watchman that they'll handle it, said night watchman will cease doing anything.

There is no evidence to support that Zimmerman didn't go back to his car, as he told the 911 operator he would. He was told to stop following him, he claims he took a few more steps, then proceeded to go back to his car. There is no evidence to support the claim he then ignored the operators orders, and went after Trayvon Martin.

According to the evidence in the case so far, he did what he was told, yet still had his head pounded into the pavement.

[LA Muskie]

Would the "Citizens on Patrol" have handled it the way Zimmerman did??

I don't think he's guilty of murder because I don't think there was a premeditated plot to kill him. I do think he's a rather crappy night watchman, though, who could have avoided this whole thing had he just listened to the cops. When the cops tell a good night watchman that they'll handle it, said night watchman will cease doing anything. Being a shitty night watchman that is unnecessarily and detrimentally confrontational after being told not to be is not the same as murder, though.

It may not be Murder 1, but it's a degree of homicide.

[mistabeecee41]

If Travon Martin was beating me and bashing my head into the concrete and I had a gun, I would have shot him and I wouldn't be ashamed of it. If Travon Martin was beating my wife I would hope she could have killed him instead.

I think Travon was a thug. Toxicology reports seem to indicate that he was on drugs. His social networking indicates that he was a drug dealer. One tweet on his twitter account involved assaulting a bus driver. I don't think that can be proven in court though, but I tend to believe it. He has youtubes of fights, and it appears that he liked to beat people. He was suspended from school on multiple occasions, and one looks like burglary and possession of stolen property when he was suspended for the bag of women't jewlry and a "burglary tool". But that didn't result in a criminal offense, because the superinetendent of schools decided that they needed a lower crime rate for blacks in the Miami-Dade school district. That is pure political correctness. Let us not forget that. If he was held to a higher standard it would be much more likely that he would be alive today. The soft bigotry of low expectations played out to the fullest.

And lets not forget his last crime, which was in my opinion a felonious assault and battery against George Zimmerman.

Travon was under school suspension when he was killed by Zimmerman. It looks as though he was spending the nights in Sanford because his mother gave up because she couldn't control him anymore. He appears to be a very troubled and violent young man, who was into guns, drugs and drug dealing, fighting, burglary, assault and guns. To me it seems this was only a matter of time, and Zimmerman probably saved the world of many future victims.

The picture of the 11 year old Travon doesn't really tell the story. It is crazy that the main stream media led the story that way, and it influenced a lot of people. It is also crazy to call Zimmerman white, when he identified as Hispanic, had black blood running through his veins and was just as white as Obama. Obama famously inserted himself into the political fray (always a bad idea whether you like either side or not), and he said that "If I had a son, he would look like Travon". What was left unsaid or unoted is that Zimmerman looks more like Obama than Travon.

Zimmerman on the other hand was a respected member of his community before Travon. He fought hard to expose police corruption in the beating of a black homeless man by the son of someone high ranked on the force. He organized his community, he was a community organizer. He called the cops himself on that fateful night, and what despotic racial Hispanic killer would do just that? If you were really looking for a mark, would you call the cops? It is absurd. Travon was 100 yards from his newfound home when he passed George Zimmerman the first time, when he was on the phone. The attack happened minutes later only 30 yards away from Zimmerman's vehicle. Zimmerman was told to call it off and go back on the phone, and he said he di. The measurements support his testimony.

Zimmerman suspected that Martin was a criminal. I think that Martin was a criminal. Zimmerman thought he looked high and on drugs. I think he was high and on drugs. People think that Martin was profiled. We are all profiled everyday, many times by government officials. It appears that Zimmerman's profiling was correct. Travon was a criminal and toxicology points that was on drugs, both in his blood and urine.

So who do we believe? I believe Zimmerman. Just from the facts. You don't have to believe him or like him though I tend to respect him. All you have to do is have reasonable doubt.

We live in a multicultural society, and the changing demographics were on notice in this trial. One witness needed an interpreter even though she has lived her for 12 years. 12 Years! She can't speak English! Expect that more and more in our criminal trials. I have talked about the changing Demographics for some time, only now is it popular to talk about it politically. Well, these changing demographics mean much more changes than that.

What about his Haitian girlfriend or "girl that was a friend"(that barely knew him in the past 5 years). She was supposed to be fluent in 3 languages, but she could not read her letter and perjured herself on the stand. She was the lead witness. I don't think she will face perjury charges even though her story has changed because she may be retarded. Retarded in America is a base point of a 70 IQ. Liberals argue all the time we shouldn't execute those people, I want to cut an agreement that they shouldn't be allowed to testify either. It was difficult to watch that blob of human tissue try to respond. Welcome to our new demographic destiny. I think diversity makes us stronger.

Maybe if Zimmerman said he saw Trayvon up to something other than "looking high". Who gives a shit if a kid is walking home 'while high'. If walking home while intoxicated makes you a criminal, lock me up.

[LadyMuskie]

I know lots of people that participate on neighborhood watch and attend community meetings. In Cincinnati we even have "Citizens on Patrol". They even have their own "squad car". I can imagine the disdain some of you would heep upon those "Cop wannabes". I have met tons of them and they are good people that want to make a difference. I think most people that ridicule Zimmerman probably live in comfortable neighborhoods. When your property starts getting broken into, destroyed and taken maybe you would reconsider.

His story is that he was going back to his vehicle, and the crime scene was only 30 yards from it, which supports his story. As for him being judge and jury, his skull was being repeatedly crushed into the concrete and the attacker was on top of him. I would have shot Travon Martin in a heartbeat if he was on top of me crushing my skull and saying that he was going to kill me. I find Zimmerman's account to be very believable. The police did too, which was why he was originally not charged with a crime. I believe he will be vindicated and found not guilty, I only hope we don't see a riot in the African American community.

Since you decided to just make rash assumptions instead of finding out some information first, I'll help you out. First of all, I don't live in one of your so-called "comfortable neighborhoods". I live in District 3, which is currently where most of Cincinnati's crime takes place. Second, I am a member of my neighborhood's Citizens on Patrol. Are you a member of your's? Have you submitted your application and gone through training? If you have, then you know that CPD is very clear what is and what is not acceptable during patrols. The rules are clear that if you witness a crime or suspicious activity, you are to call CPD and wait for officers to arrive while trying to gain as much information for an eye-witness statement as possible. Having been the victim of crimes against our home, I can assure you that it is not easy to get over and is hard to accept for a variety of reasons. That does not, however, give me the right to do whatever I want. If we all just exacted justice, we'd have anarchy.

If I am attacked, I will defend myself. My fellow citizens on patrol members agree with that, but we also have found common ground in the fact that Zimmerman has given all of us a bad name because of his idiotic actions. He should have listened to the police and then none of this would have happened. Instead, he got himself into a situation where he had to defend himself and will forever have to live with the repercussions of that.


Would the "Citizens on Patrol" have handled it the way Zimmerman did??

I don't think he's guilty of murder because I don't think there was a premeditated plot to kill him. I do think he's a rather crappy night watchman, though, who could have avoided this whole thing had he just listened to the cops. When the cops tell a good night watchman that they'll handle it, said night watchman will cease doing anything. Being a shitty night watchman that is unnecessarily and detrimentally confrontational after being told not to be is not the same as murder, though.

No. We would not have handled it the way he did. In fact, handling things the way he did can get you removed from Citizens on Patrol. The rules and procedures are very clear.

And I agree with everything else you said!

[XU 87]

I'm not sure the picture you paint of Trayvon Martin is incorrect. I don't think he was the angel his family and media portray him to have been.

However, I am certain that Zimmerman didn't have the right to be judge, jury and executioner because Martin was walking around the neighborhood. The police dispatcher told him to stay in the car, and he should have stayed in the car. Then, he wouldn't have been allegedly attacked by Martin and Martin wouldn't be dead. Vigilantes are just as bad as criminals. Civilized society shouldn't accept either.

You make it sound like Zimmerman just went up and executed Martin. No one has claimed that's what occurred.

And let's assume he did follow Martin after the police told him not to, even though Zimmerman denies this and the evidence suggests otherwise. But let's assume he did. That's not a crime. In fact, it's perfectly legal. Furthermore, following someone is not acting as a vigilante.

[LA Muskie]

You make it sound like Zimmerman just went up and executed Martin. No one has claimed that's what occurred.

And let's assume he did follow Martin after the police told him not to, even though Zimmerman denies this and the evidence suggests otherwise. But let's assume he did. That's not a crime. In fact, it's perfectly legal. Furthermore, following someone is not acting as a vigilante.
It depends. One cannot invoke self defense if he provoked the confrontation that led to the need for such a defense. And I disagree with your assessment of the evidence to date.

[LadyMuskie]

You make it sound like Zimmerman just went up and executed Martin. No one has claimed that's what occurred.

And let's assume he did follow Martin after the police told him not to, even though Zimmerman denies this and the evidence suggests otherwise. But let's assume he did. That's not a crime. In fact, it's perfectly legal. Furthermore, following someone is not acting as a vigilante.

He was told to stay where he was by the police dispatcher. He chose to ignore that and follow the suspicious individual. Beyond that, as a Citizen on Patrol, you are trained not to engage the suspicious individual whether the police tell you to do that or not. Once you have alerted the police to the activity, you are trained to do what you are told by the police so that you don't wind up dead. It isn't a game. It's not Batman and Robin. Lives can be at stake. And while it can be true that following someone is not a crime, it can be a crime if you are following that person in a harassing or threatening manner. As you stated, people have the freedom to walk through a neighborhood without being attacked, including black youths. Zimmerman should have done what he was told instead of trying to play super cop. He's extremely lucky he's not dead, and I can guarantee you, that if he moved to my neighborhood and applied to be a CoP, he'd be denied.

[boozehound]

It depends. One cannot invoke self defense if he provoked the confrontation that led to the need for such a defense. And I disagree with your assessment of the evidence to date.

Is that true in all states / instances regarding provocation? What constitutes provocation?

My guess based on much of the character evidence that has come out is that Trayvon Martin is a thug, who probably didn't respond well when approached by Zimmerman. I'm not sure that Zimmerman asking Martin what he was up to necessarily constitutes a degree of provocation that would negate his right to self defense though. I'm also not a lawyer.

My issue with Zimmerman's behavior is that I don't think he should have left the car to confront Martin. That would seem to be counter to the principles of most neighborhood watch organizations that have heard of, and is consistent with LadyMuskie's input. This type of thing is why they want you to wait for the police. That decision makes Zimmerman an idiot in my mind, but not a murderer. Furthermore, the more information that is coming out about this case the worse Martin looks and the better Zimmerman looks.

[LA Muskie]

Is that true in all states / instances regarding provocation?
Generally, yes.


What constitutes provocation?
There's the rub. With the exception of bright lines that have been laid out by the appellate courts (which are rare), generally the jury decides.

[XU 87]

LAdy Muskie, I don't get your point. Are you saying because he followed Martin (and assuming he that he did since the evidence may indicate otherwise) that he should be convicted of murder? That because he followed Martin that Martin had the legal right to beat the hell out of Zimmerman?

I think you're confusing what is prudent to protect one's self v. what a person is legally permitted and not permitted to do. Those are two completely different concepts.

If you want me to admit that a person shouldn't follow a potential and dangerous criminal along a street, I agree. But if you want me to also admit that if you do follow the potential dangerous criminal, the criminal then has the right to beat you up AND you have no right to defend yourself, I and most people would disagree. But it appears to me that you're in some ways arguing the latter.

[LA Muskie]

LAdy Muskie, I don't get your point. Are you saying because he followed Martin (and assuming he that he did since the evidence may indicate otherwise) that he should be convicted of murder? That because hefollowe Martin that Martin had the legal right to beat the hell out of Zimmerman.

I think you're confusing what is prudent to protect one's self v. what a person is legally permitted and not permitted to do. Those are two completely differnt concepts.

If you want me to admit that a person shouldn't follow a potential and dangerous criminal along a street, I agree. But if you want me to also admit that if you do follow the potential dangerous criminal, the criminal then has the right to beat you up AND you have no right to defend yourself, I and most people would disagree. But it appears to me that you're in some ways arguing the latter.
I don't know what Lady is thinking. But I think there is a legitimate question of whether it was MARTIN who was using self-defense in any struggle that may have occurred.

[GoMuskies]

I don't know what Lady is thinking. But I think there is a legitimate question of whether it was MARTIN who was using self-defense in any struggle that may have occurred.

I think they were both scared out of their wits and that neither would have been convicted of shooting the other (ie. if Martin had been the one legally carrying and had shot Zimmerman he wouldn't have been convicted either).

[XU 87]

It depends. One cannot invoke self defense if he provoked the confrontation that led to the need for such a defense. And I disagree with your assessment of the evidence to date.

This was discussed earlier in the thread and I don't think that's exactly correct. Say I start a fight with you. You punch me into submission and then I'm lying helplessly on the ground almost unconscious or I'm running to my car to get away from you. You grab a 2' by 4' to and begin hitting me over the head while I'm putting up no fight. At that point, I think I can defend myself.

[LA Muskie]

This was discussed earlier in the thread and I don't think that's exactly correct. Say I start a fight with you. You punch me into submission and then I'm lying helplessly on the ground almost unconscious or I'm running to my car to get away from you. You grab a a 2' by 4' to and begin hitting me over the head while I'm putting up no fight. At that point, I think I can defend myself.
There are a lot of what-if's. I was admittedly speaking in general terms.

[XU 87]

I don't know what Lady is thinking. But I think there is a legitimate question of whether it was MARTIN who was using self-defense in any struggle that may have occurred.

Other than the two people who were involved, I don't think anyone really knows who started this. But it seems odd to me that Zimmerman would have started a physical confrontation with Martin when he's 1)already called the police and 2) is carrying a gun. Vigilantes don't first call the police. And a guy with a gun doesn't want to get into a wrestling match with someone who can take said gun.

[XU 87]

There are a lot of what-if's. I was admittedly speaking in general terms.

Fair enough. But even if Zimmerman somehow started the physical confrontation, I don't think that then means he's automatically precluded from a self-defense argument.

And if Zimmerman said something to Martin like "What are you doing here", that doesnt mean that Martin then could beat the hell out of Zimmerman. One thing I think is clear, Zimmerman was on his back and getting his ass kicked when he shot Martin. Other than the bullet wound, did Martin have any other wounds or abrasions?

[paulxu]

I made a decision weeks ago that this was circus case and not to even try and follow it, as it appeared to be Court TV supercharged by the mainstream media.
Wading through this thread I see it was one of my (few) better decisions.

[LA Muskie]

Fair enough. But even if Zimmerman somehow started the physical confrontation, I don't think that then means he's automatically precluded from a self-defense argument.
It doesn't automatically mean that. But generally speaking it is very difficult for the aggressor in a confrontation to successfully plead self-defense.


And if Zimmerman said something to Martin like "What are you doing here", that doesnt mean that Martin then could beat the hell out of Zimmerman.
Agreed.


One thing I think is clear, Zimmerman was on his back and getting his ass kicked when he shot Martin.
From what I've seen, the evidence in support of this conclusion is far from clear.

[bobbiemcgee]

It doesn't automatically mean that. But generally speaking it is very difficult for the aggressor in a confrontation to successfully plead self-defense.


Agreed.


From what I've seen, the evidence in support of this conclusion is far from clear.

I would disagree. A witness already testified he saw GZ on bottom getting his head pummeled. He didn't see the actual blows but saw TM's arms flailng downward in a "ground and pound" position on top. GZ's Phys. Asst. said all the wounds on the back of his head were consistent with having his head smashed into cement. Cement is a weapon.

[xubrew]

You make it sound like Zimmerman just went up and executed Martin. No one has claimed that's what occurred.

And let's assume he did follow Martin after the police told him not to, even though Zimmerman denies this and the evidence suggests otherwise. But let's assume he did. That's not a crime. In fact, it's perfectly legal. Furthermore, following someone is not acting as a vigilante.

That's what I thought, but when I tried to explain that to the judge, he ended up taking HER side!!!


There is no evidence to support that Zimmerman didn't go back to his car, as he told the 911 operator he would. He was told to stop following him, he claims he took a few more steps, then proceeded to go back to his car. There is no evidence to support the claim he then ignored the operators orders, and went after Trayvon Martin.

According to the evidence in the case so far, he did what he was told, yet still had his head pounded into the pavement.

There is plenty of evidence that Zimmerman was out of his car confronting Martin. What the hell was he doing that for??

My contention is that Zimmerman is not a murderer. He's just a shitty night watchman who did something really stupid and is now caught up in a big mess because of it. What neighborhood watch organizations have in their procedure that the person on watch is supposed to confront anyone??

As I understand it, there are cops, then there are campus cops, then there is XUPD, then there are rent-a-cops, then there are security guards, and THEN there are night watchmen, who's only job is to alert the police if they see anything suspicious. So, with that in mind, what the hell was he even doing out of his car??

Now, just so my stance on this is clear, I do not believe him to be guilty of murder. I simply believe he stupidly approached the situation in a way that made it infinitely worse.

[Mel Cooley XU'81]

TalkLeft typically has interesting analysis of this trial and other lawyerly matters.

All this is far beyond Mel's poor powers to add or detract.

www.talkleft.com

[DC Muskie]

Martin didn't do a good job of bashing George's head on the concrete. If he had done it properly, he would have done the world a great thing by taking out one huge douchebag.

[DC Muskie]

I would disagree. A witness already testified he saw GZ on bottom getting his head pummeled. He didn't see the actual blows but saw TM's arms flailng downward in a "ground and pound" position on top. GZ's Phys. Asst. said all the wounds on the back of his head were consistent with having his head smashed into cement. Cement is a weapon.

The medical examiner testified that his injuries were not that serious. George Zimmerman was pissed and wanted to be a superhero. Superhero of a gated community.

[xeus]

Martin didn't do a good job of bashing George's head on the concrete. If he had done it properly, he would have done the world a great thing by taking out one huge douchebag.

Classy.

[DC Muskie]

Classy.

Thanks Doc.

[Juice]

It depends. One cannot invoke self defense if he provoked the confrontation that led to the need for such a defense. And I disagree with your assessment of the evidence to date.

If the person who is provoked, then escalates the incident from normal force to deadly force, then I believe deadly force can then be used in self defense.

And Florida's self defense laws are pretty loose.

[DC Muskie]

Zimmerman is without a doubt, the world's worse community watchman captain. He managed to shoot a resident's child who he profiled down streets he couldn't identify.

No wonder he couldn't become a police officer. He doesn't know his beat.

[Snipe]

Martin didn't do a good job of bashing George's head on the concrete. If he had done it properly, he would have done the world a great thing by taking out one huge douchebag.

I wouldn't be surprised if Zimmerman is killed at some point for retribution, so you still may have a chance to celebrate.

[bobbiemcgee]

The medical examiner testified that his injuries were not that serious.

The State's MA is an idiot. Came to the stand with pre-printed possible questions and what his canned answers were going to be. Never disclosed them to the prosecution or the defense. Then, he changed his mind several times on the issues from his depo. Finally, he said TM had more THC in his bloodstream than he previously stated, allowing the defense to get in their previously not allowed statement that he was on drugs. Brilliant. He is also the only guy in the State of Fla. who says he can't even remember the case. Dr. De Maio for the defense is kicking his butt with common sense.

[XU 87]

Never mind.

[PM Thor]

The State's MA is an idiot. Came to the stand with pre-printed possible questions and what his canned answers were going to be. Never disclosed them to the prosecution or the defense. Then, he changed his mind several times on the issues from his depo. Finally, he said TM had more THC in his bloodstream than he previously stated, allowing the defense to get in their previously not allowed statement that he was on drugs. Brilliant. He is also the only guy in the State of Fla. who says he can't even remember the case. Dr. De Maio for the defense is kicking his butt with common sense.

I'll defend the guy on that one, he probably sees dozens, if not hundreds of cases any given year. I have been deposed in a murder-attempted murder double shooting, and I couldn't even remember which fire company I was on that day without looking at my narrative after the event. When you see it frequently, it gets to be a blur.

[DC Muskie]

The State's MA is an idiot. Came to the stand with pre-printed possible questions and what his canned answers were going to be. Never disclosed them to the prosecution or the defense. Then, he changed his mind several times on the issues from his depo. Finally, he said TM had more THC in his bloodstream than he previously stated, allowing the defense to get in their previously not allowed statement that he was on drugs. Brilliant. He is also the only guy in the State of Fla. who says he can't even remember the case. Dr. De Maio for the defense is kicking his butt with common sense.

I was actually talking about the woman who examined Georgie. The guy you are referring to never examined Georgie.

[bobbiemcgee]

http://www.news4jax.com/news/more-complaints-on-jacksonville-medical-examiner-dr-valerie-rao/-/475880/20640256/-/rurvpcz/-/index.html

[LA Muskie]

http://www.news4jax.com/news/more-complaints-on-jacksonville-medical-examiner-dr-valerie-rao/-/475880/20640256/-/rurvpcz/-/index.html

That article reads like a 3rd grader wrote it. Which isn't all that bad for the JAX.

[waggy]

Can't say I'm surprised in the least. I'm truly scared for our country. This sucks.


A conservative watchdog group accused the Justice Department of helping manage the "pressure campaign" last year against George Zimmerman in the wake of the Trayvon Martin shooting, citing documents that show an obscure agency spent thousands assisting local demonstrations.

The little-known agency, the Community Relations Service, is described by the Justice Department as their "peacemaker" for community conflicts over race.

The protests last spring over Martin's death certainly qualified as such a conflict. But while the department claims its "peacemaker" agency does not "take sides" in such disputes, Judicial Watch said the documents and public accounts show otherwise.

"These documents detail the extraordinary intervention by the Justice Department in the pressure campaign leading to the prosecution of George Zimmerman," Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton said.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/10/did-justice-department-support-anti-zimmerman-protests-after-trayvon-shooting/

[DC Muskie]

I didn't know that George assaulted a police officer and his fiancee.

Favorite part of this circus...

George's own trainer basically calling him a pussy. Classic.

[bobbiemcgee]

'Bald Dude" Bernie saying his Star Witness was an uneducated, dumb ass liar who can't read cursive but don't hold that against her.

[XU 87]

The medical examiner testified that his injuries were not that serious.

I've heard this argument made elsewhere and all I can say is, "So what"? You don't have to wait until you're critically injured before you defend yourself. Did Zimmerman need to let Martin smash his head into the sidewalk a few more times before Zimmerman defended himself?

[blueblob06]

I guess some would say, he could've just not continued to follow the kid, just as the 911 dispatcher told him not to do. Then he wouldn't have had come to the point of deciding whether or not to shoot the kid.

[GoMuskies]

I guess some would say, he could've just not continued to follow the kid, just as the 911 dispatcher told him not to do. Then he wouldn't have had come to the point of deciding whether or not to shoot the kid.

I agree. It's just not a crime (without more) to follow the kid. He's morally (and probably civilly) responsible for Martin's death. I just don't think he's criminally responsible.

[bobbiemcgee]

Following and even profiling someone is not illegal. This is why I have trouble with the Prosecution's argument so far. They can establish GZ as a wannabe cop. So what? They have to prove that GZ murdered TM beyond every reasonable doubt. Bernie arguing "common sense". If you're getting beat senseless, common sense is to get the other person to stop doing that.

[DC Muskie]

I've heard this argument made elsewhere and all I can say is, "So what"? You don't have to wait until you're critically injured before you defend yourself. Did Zimmerman need to let Martin smash his head into the sidewalk a few more times before Zimmerman defended himself?

I think the point was the version of events that George presented weren't as severe as he claimed. Personally I don't think his head was slammed, smashed, pounded or anything else into the sidewalk. There was no blood on the sidewalk, no blood on Martin's hand, and the only blood that managed to stay where it came out was on his head.

That being said, there's no way he gets convicted.

[LA Muskie]

I think the point was the version of events that George presented weren't as severe as he claimed. Personally I don't think his head was slammed, smashed, pounded or anything else into the sidewalk. There was no blood on the sidewalk, no blood on Martin's hand, and the only blood that managed to stay where it came out was on his head.

That being said, there's no way he gets convicted.
I agree with all of this (including the low odds of conviction). Whether he was actually hurt (or the severity of the injuries) technically would have been of marginal relevance. Until he made that the reason for his "self defense" after the fact.

[GuyFawkes38]

I don't know where vegas has it, but I'm guessing a really good chance for manslaughter (while no chance for 2nd degree).

[XU 87]

I think the point was the version of events that George presented weren't as severe as he claimed. Personally I don't think his head was slammed, smashed, pounded or anything else into the sidewalk. There was no blood on the sidewalk, no blood on Martin's hand, and the only blood that managed to stay where it came out was on his head.



I'm not following you. If his head wasn't hit against the concrete, how did he get the wounds and blood on the back of his head?

[bobbiemcgee]

I don't know where vegas has it, but I'm guessing a really good chance for manslaughter (while no chance for 2nd degree).

That would be odd, since if the jury believes he acted in self-defense in the 2Murder, why wouldn't they believe he did so in the Manslaughter charge? Not saying it couldn't happen.

[DC Muskie]

I'm not following you. If his head wasn't hit against the concrete, how did he get the wounds and blood on the back of his head?

He could have fell, or something else. The investigating officer even thought his injuries were exaggerated. Not everyone believes that Zimmerman had his head pounded on concrete.

Hell Zimmerman even refused medical treatment. I'm not sure who does that if what George says is true.

[waggy]

Hearing that Aaron Hernandez is throwing his support behind George Zimmermans run for Seminole County Sheriff.

[XU 87]

He could have fell, or something else. The investigating officer even thought his injuries were exaggerated. Not everyone believes that Zimmerman had his head pounded on concrete.

Hell Zimmerman even refused medical treatment. I'm not sure who does that if what George says is true.


He could have "fallen or something else"? Was there any testimony that he "fell and hit his head" or that "something else" happened? You're engaging in complete speculation. In fact, the mechanism of his injuries is supported by the testimony.

And the investing officers didn't want to charge him. It wasn't until Al Sharpton (a complete fraud) got involved, and apparently with the help of the federal government, that these charges were filed.

[DC Muskie]

He could have "fallen or something else"? Was there any testimony that he "fell and hit his head" or that "something else" happened? You're engaging in complete speculation. In fact, the mechanism of his injuries is supported by the testimony.

And the investing officers didn't want to charge him. It wasn't until Al Sharpton (a complete fraud) got involved, and apparently with the help of the federal government, that these charges were filed.

There was testimony that both men were fighting while standing, while Zimmerman was on top and when Martin was top. The only testimony about slamming his head on the concrete is from the paid "use of force expert" and Zimmerman's taped explanations to the police and Sean Hannity.

As for the investigating officers, actually the guy who actually believed Zimmerman wanted him charged with manslaughter. The sheriff didn't think there was probable cause, which I find hilarious since a teenage, unarmed kid laid dead. Good for whomever pressured whomever to get Zimmerman charged. I would find it shocking that anyone wouldn't want to find out the truth involving the death of an unarmed kid at the hands of a wanna be cop.

[XU 87]

As for the investigating officers, actually the guy who actually believed Zimmerman wanted him charged with manslaughter. The sheriff didn't think there was probable cause, which I find hilarious since a teenage, unarmed kid laid dead. Good for whomever pressured whomever to get Zimmerman charged. I would find it shocking that anyone wouldn't want to find out the truth involving the death of an unarmed kid at the hands of a wanna be cop.

The investigating officer was Christopher Serino. There are multiple reports that he wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter. But he told the FBI that he didn't think he had enough evidence to charge Zimmerman but he was being pressured by others to do so. He also testified at trial that he believed Zimmerman's story. The judge had to tell the jury the next day to ignore that statement.

But I find it a little incredible that you think it's ok for criminal charges to be filed against people as a result of pressure from outside political groups. I suppose Dez Wells should be thankful NOW didn't take an interest in his case.

P.S. and you're speculating about the cause of his head wounds.

[nuts4xu]

There was testimony that both men were fighting while standing, while Zimmerman was on top and when Martin was top. The only testimony about slamming his head on the concrete is from the paid "use of force expert" and Zimmerman's taped explanations to the police and Sean Hannity.



Who gave the testimony about Zimmerman falling and hitting his head? I must have missed that part of the trial.

[DC Muskie]

But I find it a little incredible that you think it's ok for criminal charges to be filed against people as a result of pressure from outside political groups. I suppose Dez Wells should be thankful NOW didn't take an interest in his case.

Wait one second...please, please, please tell me you are not fine with someone killing an unarmed teenager.

I'm not sure why you care, other than hating Al Sharpton, why pressure being applied here is a bad thing. I would hope if someone killed my child and law enforcement didn't even charge the person who did it, people would help me in applying pressure to get my child's day in court.

You are basically arguing what people in the south did when they lynched blacks. "Well the police say there's not enough evidence so we'll let the lynchers go."

Man a kid is dead and you are upset at Al Sharpton? Who gives a shit about Al Sharpton 87? I mean besides you.

[DC Muskie]

Who gave the testimony about Zimmerman falling and hitting his head? I must have missed that part of the trial.


No one, but the evidence also suggests that Zimmerman's version of being bashed 30 times is also speculation.

Seriously, if your head gets bashed on concrete 30 times, how in the world are you able to do anything? Let alone pull a gun from behind you and shoot someone?

[bobbiemcgee]

Seriously, if your head gets bashed on concrete 30 times, how in the world are you able to do anything?

What would be the correct number of times to have your head bashed in cement before you shoot someone to get them to stop? 1? 2? Somewhere between one and 30, you'd be dead and TM would be on trial (or maybe not, cuz the other guy had a gun.)

[XU 87]

Wait one second...please, please, please tell me you are not fine with someone killing an unarmed teenager.

I'm not sure why you care, other than hating Al Sharpton, why pressure being applied here is a bad thing. I would hope if someone killed my child and law enforcement didn't even charge the person who did it, people would help me in applying pressure to get my child's day in court.

You are basically arguing what people in the south did when they lynched blacks. "Well the police say there's not enough evidence so we'll let the lynchers go."

Man a kid is dead and you are upset at Al Sharpton? Who gives a shit about Al Sharpton 87? I mean besides you.

Maybe you should have waited a second before posting this. If you want to discuss this like a mature adult, I'm willing to do so. But please stop with this "I guess you're fine with an unarmed teenager being killed" and comparing this to a lynching that occurred in the 1920's. But if this is the nonsense you have to resort to, I guess it shows the strength, or lack thereof, of your arguments.

But to address what little substance you did argue, criminal charges should be filed against people based on the evidence, not because a political group has an agenda and applies political pressure to have charges filed.

[blueblob06]

If your head was bashed into the concrete 30 times, how would you not have at least bled a bit on the concrete? Also, how would you not need medical attention?

[casualfan]

If your head was bashed into the concrete 30 times, how would you not have at least bled a bit on the concrete? Also, how would you not need medical attention?


I missed the part where anyone applied a number to the amount of times it got hit on the concrete.

[DC Muskie]

Maybe you should have waited a second before posting this. If you want to discuss this like a mature adult, I'm willing to do so. But please stop with this "I guess you're fine with an unarmed teenager being killed" and comparing this to a lynching that occurred in the 1920's. But if this is the nonsense you have to resort to, I guess it shows the strength, or lack thereof, of your arguments.

But to address what little substance you did argue, criminal charges should be filed against people based on the evidence, not because a political group has an agenda and applies political pressure to have charges filed.

Stop with the condescending tone 87. I'm being an adult, so no need to lecture me about maturity.

You said political groups like AL Shaprton pressured law enforcement to bring a charge against Zimmerman. My argument is I want a day in court for the deceased. You brought up Al Sharpton. Why did you, in your mature manner, do that? What does Al Sharpton have to do with anything?

If Zimmerman is found not guilty, which I think he will, then fine. But my argument is bring this case to court and let's find out. And since we are having that case, I think my point is without speculation, pretty strong. Stronger than concrete.

Now after reading what I wrote, are you still going to call me immature? Nothing, absolutely nothing I wrote has been out of line. Police are capable of making mistakes and that sheriff who didn't charge Zimmerman definitely deserved to lose his job. A kid was killed and this case deserved it's day in court for both Zimmerman and Martin.

[DC Muskie]

I missed the part where anyone applied a number to the amount of times it got hit on the concrete.


It was brought up numerous times during interviews with police and the media. The defense argued that people in this situation are prone to some exaggerations.

[DC Muskie]

What would be the correct number of times to have your head bashed in cement before you shoot someone to get them to stop? 1? 2? Somewhere between one and 30, you'd be dead and TM would be on trial (or maybe not, cuz the other guy had a gun.)

There's a difference between 1 and 2 times and 30. That's all I'm saying, not the actual head bashing on the concrete. It lends itself to credibility and when you line up with other statements Zimmerman provided that were incorrect or shady, it adds up that your life was in danger.

How many times did Zimmerman get slapped in the face before they ended up in the ground? Is his life not in danger then?

[XU 87]

You said political groups like AL Shaprton pressured law enforcement to bring a charge against Zimmerman. My argument is I want a day in court for the deceased. You brought up Al Sharpton. Why did you, in your mature manner, do that? What does Al Sharpton have to do with anything?



Other than the fact that Al Sharpton was one of the leaders of the protests down in Florida which ultimately resulted in Zimmerman being charged, I guess he has nothing to do with this.

[DC Muskie]

Other than the fact that Al Sharpton was one of the leaders of the protests down in Florida which ultimately resulted in Zimmerman being charged, I guess he has nothing to do with this.

Which is pure speculation on your part.

[waggy]

Sharpton is a representative of racial divide. Nothing good ever comes from his involvement.

[bobbiemcgee]

Other than the fact that Al Sharpton was one of the leaders of the protests down in Florida which ultimately resulted in Zimmerman being charged, I guess he has nothing to do with this.

The 4th District of Florida refused to charge him. Protests. Feds come to town. Gov Scott appointed Angela Corey as chief prosecutor from 4th District (Jacksonville). Sanford Police Chief with 30 year career fired. Corey files 2nd degree murder charges.

[XU 87]

Which is pure speculation on your part.

You asked what did Sharpton have to do with this. I told you. It appears that you didn't know that he was one of the leaders of the protests down there. But after the protests, which the federal government assisted with, the case was taken from the local jurisdiction and given to a special prosecutor.

I forgot to comment on your part about the "sheriff who didn't charge him definitely deserved to lose his job." Note to all police officers out there- in a racially charged situation, charge the person with a crime, even if you honestly don't think one occurred. Charging the person with a crime that you think didn't occur may be unethical. It may be morally wrong. It may be entirely unfair to the accused, and could possibly ruin the accused's life. But at least you'll get to keep your job and put food on your table.

[DC Muskie]

You asked what did Sharpton have to do with this. I told you. It appears that you didn't know that he was one of the leaders of the protests down there. But after the protests, which the federal government assisted with, the case was taken from the local jurisdiction and given to a special prosecutor.

I forgot to comment on your part about the "sheriff who didn't charge him definitely deserved to lose his job." Note to all police officers out there- in a racially charged situation, charge the person with a crime, even if you honestly don't think one occurred. Charging the person with a crime that you think didn't occur may be unethical. It may be morally wrong. It may be entirely unfair to the accused, and could possibly ruin the accused's life. But at least you'll get to keep your job and put food on your table.

And you are lecturing me about maturity?

So you can bring up race and it's fine, but when I make references to the fact that no charges were filled when an unarmed black kid get gunned down isand that is fine is akin to people tolerating a lynching...that's where you have a problem? Okay...you can bring up race, but I can't. Got it.

I'd like to point out to everyone that the police never do or get anything wrong. The police bat 1000.00 when it comes to dealing with suspects. Anyone who tries to apply any pressure for whatever reason is wrong. They are even more wrong if it involves race.

Maybe Al Sharpton and the federal government can apply pressure to get a conviction because they seem to be sooooo overpowering. If there is no conviction I guess we just have to settle on the conclusion that their powers have limits.

I'm just going to ask this question....do you think this case was a waste of time?

[XU 87]

So you can bring up race and it's fine, but when I make references to the fact that no charges were filled when an unarmed black kid get gunned down isand that is fine is akin to people tolerating a lynching...that's where you have a problem? Okay...you can bring up race, but I can't. Got it.


You can bring up race all you want. Much of this trial is about race. But don't say things to me like, "I guess you don't care that an unarmed black teenager was killed" or that my arguments are the same as what people said about lynchings. Do you see how you might have just crossed the line there?

[waggy]

Maybe just maybe this trial is about race because people consumed with race made it about that.

[Muskie]

He could have fell, or something else. The investigating officer even thought his injuries were exaggerated. Not everyone believes that Zimmerman had his head pounded on concrete.

Hell Zimmerman even refused medical treatment. I'm not sure who does that if what George says is true.

Someone with a concussion?

[DC Muskie]

You can bring up race all you want. Much of this trial is about race. But don't say things to me like, "I guess you don't care that an unarmed balck teenager was killed" or that my arguments are the same as what people said about lynchings. Do you see how you might have just crossed the line there?

You brought up Al Sharpton. I asked you why, you just said because he pressured for arrest. You said the police didn't want to arrest Zimmerman, and you can't possibly see that the police could have been wrong? Not the slightest? You can slam Al Sharpton, who by the way is someone I have dealt with in the past and is quite frankly, an asshole, but I crossed a line about lynching? That's just how I feel, that a young unarmed black kid was killed and the guy who killed him can claim self defense and the police can sign off and everything is fine. Sorry, I'm not calling you a racist, but that's how I feel that reaction to "well the police didn't want to charge him and this black guy pressured the prosecutor to move forward." You can see that?

I saw the gutter comment by the way. That seems to be your M.O. whenever we have a disagreement. I'll never understand it frankly and really have grown to expect that type of response from you. It's sad and pathetic because I hold you in high regard and have never accused you ever of "taking things into the gutter."

I'll ask you again and I hope you can simply focus on this and we can steer this conversation back to where it was before you sidetracked it with the Al Sharpton comment.

Do you think that this trial was a waste of time since you believe that Zimmerman shouldn't have been charged in the first place?

If you choose not to answer this and instead spend more time in the gutter, then fine we can simply end it because you will not find me there.

[DC Muskie]

Someone with a concussion?


Zimmerman was not diagnosed with a concussion just FYI...

I and some others feel his injuries weren't life threatening. But I do understand the idea of "Well how many times do you need to have your head bashed in to become life threatening?" I don't know the answer to that.

[XU 87]

I saw the gutter comment by the way.



And after a minute or so, I deleted the comment because I thought I was crossing the line.

[DC Muskie]

And after a minute or so, I deleted the comment because I thought I was crossing the line.

Then I apologize for referencing it.

[PM Thor]

I've heard this argument made elsewhere and all I can say is, "So what"? You don't have to wait until you're critically injured before you defend yourself. Did Zimmerman need to let Martin smash his head into the sidewalk a few more times before Zimmerman defended himself?

This reminds me of the case here in Cincy where a guy ran out to find someone stealing his car, the thief whipped the car around in a cul de sac and was driving at a high rate back towards the owner who was off the sidewalk a few feet into the street. Said owner whips out his gun and shoots at the car, killing the thief. All the owner said was that he was in fear of his life. No charges filed.

[blobfan]

This reminds me of the case here in Cincy where a guy ran out to find someone stealing his car, the thief whipped the car around in a cul de sac and was driving at a high rate back towards the owner who was off the sidewalk a few feet into the street. Said owner whips out his gun and shoots at the car, killing the thief. All the owner said was that he was in fear of his life. No charges filed.

Except GZ didn't witness TM doing anything illegal prior to whatever confrontation took place between them, and may have made up what happened then.

[nuts4xu]

Except GZ didn't witness TM doing anything illegal prior to whatever confrontation took place between them, and may have made up what happened then.

I think the point was GZ felt is life was just as in danger as the guy who was standing in front of a car speeding towards him. Can't say the 2 situations are exactly the same, but that is the connection I found in Thor's post.

[Muskie]

I don't know the answer to that.

I think that's reasonable doubt.

[DC Muskie]

I think the point was GZ felt is life was just as in danger as the guy who was standing in front of a car speeding towards him. Can't say the 2 situations are exactly the same, but that is the connection I found in Thor's post.

Zimmerman has said that Martin was approaching him. This is of course after he said, "He turned around from his car to walk towards him and saw that Martin was approaching him." Or something to that effect.

I wish the state could prove that Zimmerman threw the first punch. The defense has witnesses that have Martin on top of him beating the shit out of him. I think that is hard to overcome.

[DC Muskie]

I think that's reasonable doubt.

Probably. And that's what makes this a hard case to prove. If Zimmerman threw the first punch, then whatever happens to his head is irrelevant.

[HuskyMuskie]

Any of you betting men have tips to Vegas odds on the results? Have to assume acquittal is the favorite, right?

[waggy]

I wish the state could prove that Zimmerman threw the first punch.

Why do you wish this?

[Masterofreality]

Any of you betting men have tips to Vegas odds on the results? Have to assume acquittal is the favorite, right?

Wouldn't bet against Manslaughter.

Really don't know why the judge allowed the prosecution to bring in Mansalughter after the fact. Thank goodness she didn't allow them to have a "Murder 3" option tied to child abuse.

To me, the State picks a charge, and the is what you have to prove. If you fail, you lose. Letting a lesser charge in after you see that the trial is going badly for you is changing the rules in the middle of the ball game to me.

[blobfan]

I think the point was GZ felt is life was just as in danger as the guy who was standing in front of a car speeding towards him. Can't say the 2 situations are exactly the same, but that is the connection I found in Thor's post.

It's still not an accurate comparison. The guy getting his car stolen knew he was confronting a criminal. GZ had no rational reason to believe TM was one. The guy getting his car stolen responded with a gun to a loud noise in the middle of the night. GZ took a gun with him to follow some random kid wearing a hoodie walking leisurely at 7 pm. The guy getting his car stolen had REASONABLE suspicion of danger. GZ seems to have manufactured it in his head.

And that's why I think he's going to be convicted of manslaughter.

[HuskyMuskie]

Wouldn't bet against Manslaughter.

Really don't know why the judge allowed the prosecution to bring in Mansalughter after the fact. Thank goodness she didn't allow them to have a "Murder 3" option tied to child abuse.

To me, the State picks a charge, and the is what you have to prove. If you fail, you lose. Letting a lesser charge in after you see that the trial is going badly for you is changing the rules in the middle of the ball game to me.

Agreed--I don't know enough about the law to understand how in the world that is allowed. Never understood the child abuse thing being thrown in there too, almost seems like they are blindly throwing darts at this guy hoping one will stick. Huge tragedy, the whole thing, nonetheless.

[Juice]

Except GZ didn't witness TM doing anything illegal prior to whatever confrontation took place between them, and may have made up what happened then.

GZ just has to REASONABLY believe that his life was in danger to use deadly force in self-defense. The jury has the decision on what is reasonable. What Trayvon did or didn't do before the confrontation is pretty inconsequential.

[Juice]

Probably. And that's what makes this a hard case to prove. If Zimmerman threw the first punch, then whatever happens to his head is irrelevant.

I don't think that is correct. If GZ throws a punch, Trayvon is only allowed to use equal or lesser force in that situation. If he escalates the incident, i.e. banging his head on the ground, then GZ may then be able to raise his level or force.

It's all questions of fact for the jury to decide. S

Someone correct me if I am way off.

[blobfan]

GZ just has to REASONABLY believe that his life was in danger to use deadly force in self-defense. The jury has the decision on what is reasonable. What Trayvon did or didn't do before the confrontation is pretty inconsequential.

Strictly speaking, that may be legally correct. But if forced to put money on the issue, I would bet the jury decides his behavior wasn't that of someone acting truly out of fear. He had the gone. He did the following. There's enough doubt to preclude a murder conviction but I think his actions show enough intent on his part to warrant manslaughter.

[paulxu]

Not having followed all the ins and outs, I did read Zimmerman's police statement.
He said Martin bashed his head on concrete, covered his mouth, and was going for his gun.
He got it first, shot him, and then was restraining Martin (guess he wasn't immobilized at first from shot)when cops arrived.

This seemed a fairly reasonable recap from one perspective:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/11/3496085/zimmerman-trial-man-carrying-loaded.html

When I saw this picture, all I could think about (wrongly I'm sure) was...where is the concrete? Maybe paramedics moved him.

http://gawker.com/this-courtesy-of-msnbc-is-trayvon-martins-dead-body-753370712

[DC Muskie]

I don't think that is correct. If GZ throws a punch, Trayvon is only allowed to use equal or lesser force in that situation. If he escalates the incident, i.e. banging his head on the ground, then GZ may then be able to raise his level or force.

It's all questions of fact for the jury to decide. S

Someone correct me if I am way off.

Can't that be applied to Zimmerman as well? If Martin gets hit first, can't he right then decide that Zimmerman is trying to kill him? Or does he need to have his head bashed on concrete?

[Mrs. Garrett]

If Zimmerman doesn't have a gun does he even have the balls to confront Martin? I doubt it.

[Juice]

Can't that be applied to Zimmerman as well? If Martin gets hit first, can't he right then decide that Zimmerman is trying to kill him? Or does he need to have his head bashed on concrete?

I think most people would reasonably believe that someone punching you is not deadly force. While pushing you head against the ground repeatedly is much worse.

[Masterofreality]

Why MSNBC is facilitating publishing of the picture of the body is yellow journalism, irresponsible and incindiary.

It has no bearing on anything other to incite a riot. WTF? We all know the victim is dead.

What? MSNBC, blatantly liberal in their view, is so pissed at how the trial went that it is now resorting to an attempt to have the outraged public rush the courthouse to demand a different result?

This is the worst I've ever seen....and really makes me fear for the future of my country if this is the coming wave.

[xeus]

If Zimmerman doesn't have a gun does he even have the balls to confront Martin? I doubt it.

Why does it take balls to confront a teenage boy? OH ... you must mean because he's black.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Why does it take balls to confront a teenage boy? OH ... you must mean because he's black.
Or Zimmerman is a total coward.

Regardless, Zimmerman is probably not guilty of murder but definitely guilty of something and should spend time in the slammer for what he did.

[Juice]

Or Zimmerman is a total coward.

Regardless, Zimmerman is probably not guilty of murder but definitely guilty of something and should spend time in the slammer for what he did.

Of something?

The issue I see with convicting him of manslaughter is that the jury will find him not guilty of homicide because of his use of deadly force in self defense and legally it doesn't match up.

Manslaughter in Florida is "the killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776." So more of less it is a death caused by negligence.

In Chapter 776 of Florida's code it states, "he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony." That is justified use of deadly force aka self defense.

If they jury finds him not guilty of homicide because they believe that GZ "reasonably believes that such force is necessary," how could he be acting with a negligently?

I think it was a mistake by the judge to allow the jury to have an option of manslaughter because the state of mind required for homicide and manslaughter, and the state of mind required for an affirmative defense of deadly force are at odds.

[bobbiemcgee]

It's a tragic, tragic case. And yes, I have two boys and myself as reference. We all did some crazy stuff at that age. TM was a "football throw" from home 4 minutes b4 the fight. Estimated time to walk it was 30-40 sec. Estimate to run it was half that. Where was he and how did he end up back at the T ?
O'Mara just stopped his summation for 4 minutes to show the jury how long that was. Nobody knows what was going on in the 4 minutes. As far as time in the slammer: life for 2nd degree and 25 yrs. for Manslaughter. Honestly, with all the gangs in prison, either one is a death penalty.

[XU 87]

Strictly speaking, that may be legally correct. But if forced to put money on the issue, I would bet the jury decides his behavior wasn't that of someone acting truly out of fear. He had the gone. He did the following. There's enough doubt to preclude a murder conviction but I think his actions show enough intent on his part to warrant manslaughter.

I find your post interesting. If you believe that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating the living hell out of him, do you think it was ok for Zimmerman to shoot him? Or do you think that Zimmerman should not have shot Martin, with the hope that Martin would stop beating the hell out of him?

When answering this question, I want you to put yourself in Zimmerman's shoes. If that was you, and you had to make a split second decision, would you have thought, "I'm sure this total stranger who is on top of me will stop punching me in the face." Or would you have thought, "This total stranger is going to kill me."?

[XU 87]

Here's my take on this case. I think Zimmerman followed Martin. I think they got close to each other and Zimmerman asked something to the effect: "What are you doing here?" I think Martin got pissed, and was already pissed off with Zimmerman following him, and punched Zimmerman in the face and then Zimmerman fell to the ground. I think Martin then jumped on Zimmerman and then punched him, or tried to punch him, in the face on multiple occasions.

So assuming what I think is accurate, did Zimmerman have the right to shoot him? Or should Zimmerman have hoped that Martin would stop punching him?

[STL_XUfan]

Here's my take on this case. I think Zimmerman followed Martin. I think they got close to each other and Zimmerman asked something to the effect: "What are you doing here?" I think Martin got pissed, and was already pissed off with Zimmerman following him, and punched Zimmerman in the face and then Zimmerman fell to the ground. I think Martin then jumped on Zimmerman and then punched him, or tried to punch him, in the face on multiple occasions.

So assuming what I think is accurate, did Zimmerman have the right to shoot him? Or should Zimmerman have hoped that Martin would stop punching him?

I agree with this take (except with a lot more colorful language by all parties). I think it is a case of imperfect self defense, but from what I have heard Florida doesn't subscribe to that legal theory.

I have started to wonder what this trial would have looked like had Martin actually beaten him to death, and Martin was on trial? Does the old 1L maxim of "if you are going to defend yourself with deadly force, make sure you kill him" turn out to be true? (this is assuming that Martin was using deadly force, which from my previous statement I don't think he was).

[Juice]

I agree with this take (except with a lot more colorful language by all parties). I think it is a case of imperfect self defense, but from what I have heard Florida doesn't subscribe to that legal theory.

I have started to wonder what this trial would have looked like had Martin actually beaten him to death, and Martin was on trial? Does the old 1L maxim of "if you are going to defend yourself with deadly force, make sure you kill him" turn out to be true? (this is assuming that Martin was using deadly force, which from my previous statement I don't think he was).

I bet Trayvon would walk as well. Because Trayvon wouldn't take the stand, and he could let his lawyers tell the story of a man who confronted him who was armed. They could paint the theory that Trayvon felt threatened by the sight of the gun and feared for his life. And quite frankly, that would be pretty reasonable.

[DC Muskie]

Here's my take on this case. I think Zimmerman followed Martin. I think they got close to each other and Zimmerman asked something to the effect: "What are you doing here?" I think Martin got pissed, and was already pissed off with Zimmerman following him, and punched Zimmerman in the face and then Zimmerman fell to the ground. I think Martin then jumped on Zimmerman and then punched him, or tried to punch him, in the face on multiple occasions.

So assuming what I think is accurate, did Zimmerman have the right to shoot him? Or should Zimmerman have hoped that Martin would stop punching him?

I agree with this assessment, but I would add one important detail.

Zimmerman was already pissed for Martin just being there. His tone probably incited Martin to punch him in the face.

Also, remember, Zimmerman claimed he had to shoot him because Martin grabbed, then "reached" for the gun. It wasn't because he was being punched or slammed. We saw that it was physically impossible for Martin to even see the gun.

Zimmerman called the police and if you believe that he was screaming for help. (I personally don't think it was him) He can't fight off Martin while the cops are coming? Wait, I'm now remembering that even though Zimmerman trained as a MMA fighter, he was a pussy according to his trainer.

So I guess all Zimmerman could do was to shoot an unarmed teenager.

By the way, the last part is just a joke in general and not directed towards anyone. I agree with the idea that you probably want to stop someone from punching you and d it physically, rather than just hoping that person will stop.

[DC Muskie]

I think most people would reasonably believe that someone punching you is not deadly force. While pushing you head against the ground repeatedly is much worse.

Yeah probably. But man how do you define "reasonably?" Seems to leave a lot of room for interpretation.

[DC Muskie]

I agree with this take (except with a lot more colorful language by all parties). I think it is a case of imperfect self defense, but from what I have heard Florida doesn't subscribe to that legal theory.

I have started to wonder what this trial would have looked like had Martin actually beaten him to death, and Martin was on trial? Does the old 1L maxim of "if you are going to defend yourself with deadly force, make sure you kill him" turn out to be true? (this is assuming that Martin was using deadly force, which from my previous statement I don't think he was).

Not only does the kid walk, but Zimmerman's MMA trainer provides Martin a lifetime membership to his gym, so he could save his business.

[LA Muskie]

Wouldn't bet against Manslaughter.

Really don't know why the judge allowed the prosecution to bring in Mansalughter after the fact. Thank goodness she didn't allow them to have a "Murder 3" option tied to child abuse.

To me, the State picks a charge, and the is what you have to prove. If you fail, you lose. Letting a lesser charge in after you see that the trial is going badly for you is changing the rules in the middle of the ball game to me.

Courts regularly allow the the addition of "lesser included" charges whether included in the indictment it not.

[XU 87]

.

Zimmerman was already pissed for Martin just being there. His tone probably incited Martin to punch him in the face.

Also, remember, Zimmerman claimed he had to shoot him because Martin grabbed, then "reached" for the gun. It wasn't because he was being punched or slammed. We saw that it was physically impossible for Martin to even see the gun.




The tone of Zimmerman's voice didn't give Martin any right to deck him.

As for your second paragraph, let's suppose you're in Zimmerman's shoes. You've been decked by a total stranger. This total stranger is now on top of you trying to beat the hell out of you. You have a gun in a holster on your side. Do you think, "I hope he doesn't notice my gun." Or do you think, "This total stranger who is beating the hell out of me might grab my gun and shoot me. I'm shooting him before he shoots me."?

And while you are laying on your back getting beat up by this total stranger, if this total stranger's hands gets anywhere near your gun, would you, under the circumstances, think "He's going for my gun."

Or should Zimmerman have just laid there hoping this total stranger would stop kicking his ass and hoping that this stranger wouldn't go for his gun?

[DC Muskie]

The tone of Zimmerman's voice didn't give Martin any right to deck him.

As for your second paragraph, let's suppose you're in Zimmerman's shoes. You've been decked by a total stranger. This total stranger is now on top of you trying to beat the hell out of you. You have a gun in a holster on your side. Do you think, "I hope he doesn't notice my gun." Or do you think, "This total stranger who is beating the hell out of me might grab my gun and shoot me. I'm shooting him before he shoots me."?

And while you are laying on your back getting beat up by this total stranger, if this total stranger's hands gets anywhere near your gun, would you, under the circumstances, think "He's going for my gun."

Or should Zimmerman have just laid there hoping this total stranger would stop kicking his ass and hoping that this stranger wouldn't go for his gun?

I don't disagree with what you are saying.

It's too bad Martin didn't have a gun and just shoot Zimmerman for pursuing him for no reason.

The funny thing is you'd think Zimmerman, having trained as a MMA fighter, would have been in that position before, would have had some clue as to how to get out of it. I don't watch a lot of MMA fights, but the ones I have watched, someone is usually on top of someone else punching the shit out of them. A lot times, the person getting punched is able to get out of it.

Of course we know now that Zimmerman is a huge pussy incapable of fighting. The only way he could stop the fight was to use the gun he had on him. Having that gun allowed this pussy to pursue, confront and ultimately end this fight.

I'll never understand why Zimmerman didn't identify himself. I'll never understand why Zimmerman didn't tell Martin he called the police. For all Martin knew Zimmerman was there to kill him. Unfortunately that ended up being true.

But three facts remain:

Zimmerman pursued Martin.
Zimmerman was armed and Martin was not.
Zimmerman shot and killed Martin.

And that is terrible.

[XU 87]

You left out the key points. Martin decked Zimmerman. Martin was on top of Zimmerman trying to beat the hell out of him.

[UCGRAD4X]

I don't disagree with what you are saying.

It's too bad Martin didn't have a gun and just shoot Zimmerman for pursuing him for no reason.

The funny thing is you'd think Zimmerman, having trained as a MMA fighter, would have been in that position before, would have had some clue as to how to get out of it. I don't watch a lot of MMA fights, but the ones I have watched, someone is usually on top of someone else punching the shit out of them. A lot times, the person getting punched is able to get out of it.

Of course we know now that Zimmerman is a huge pussy incapable of fighting. The only way he could stop the fight was to use the gun he had on him. Having that gun allowed this pussy to pursue, confront and ultimately end this fight.

I'll never understand why Zimmerman didn't identify himself. I'll never understand why Zimmerman didn't tell Martin he called the police. For all Martin knew Zimmerman was there to kill him. Unfortunately that ended up being true.

But three facts remain:

Zimmerman pursued Martin.
Zimmerman was armed and Martin was not.
Zimmerman shot and killed Martin.

And that is terrible.

As I did not watch the trial and only heard snippets of clips, I'm curious about a couple of things you said.

Is it true Zimmerman pursued him for no reason? That sounds odd. I thought he was on some sort of neighborhood watch patrol. Wasn't he, in fact, watching someone he thought was not from whatever 'neighborhood' he was on watch for?

How did he pursue? How did he confront? How did this come out in the trial beyond him following so as to watch?

Why did Zimmerman call the police? If he thought he was going to 'handle' the situation himself, why would he need to call the police? Especially if, as you also said that it ended up being true that Zimmerman was there to kill him?

Like I said, I didn't hear how this all came down in the trial.

[DC Muskie]

As I did not watch the trial and only heard snippets of clips, I'm curious about a couple of things you said.

Is it true Zimmerman pursued him for no reason? That sounds odd. I thought he was on some sort of neighborhood watch patrol. Wasn't he, in fact, watching someone he thought was not from whatever 'neighborhood' he was on watch for?

How did he pursue? How did he confront? How did this come out in the trial beyond him following so as to watch?

Why did Zimmerman call the police? If he thought he was going to 'handle' the situation himself, why would he need to call the police? Especially if, as you also said that it ended up being true that Zimmerman was there to kill him?

Like I said, I didn't hear how this all came down in the trial.

I'd be happy to answer you questions...

He said he didn't know the kid and looked like he was on drugs. He also said he didn't know what street he was on. There are only three streets in that neighborhood, so I'm not surprised he didn't recognized Martin, since he didn't recognize the street he was on.

He was told not to pursue him and yet he did. He confronted Martin and asked him, "What are you doing here?"

He called police and then went out and tried to handle it himself. I think throughout the trial he saw that Zimmerman is pretty terrible. He's terrible at profiling someone, he's terrible at knowing where he is, he's terrible at following directions from police, he's terrible at fighting.

I hope that helps!

[HuskyMuskie]

I'd be happy to answer you questions...

He said he didn't know the kid and looked like he was on drugs. He also said he didn't know what street he was on. There are only three streets in that neighborhood, so I'm not surprised he didn't recognized Martin, since he didn't recognize the street he was on.

He was told not to pursue him and yet he did. He confronted Martin and asked him, "What are you doing here?"

He called police and then went out and tried to handle it himself. I think throughout the trial he saw that Zimmerman is pretty terrible. He's terrible at profiling someone, he's terrible at knowing where he is, he's terrible at following directions from police, he's terrible at fighting.

I hope that helps!

I think this is where the whole decision begins and ends for me. Yes, he disregarded authority by pursuing Martin, and by getting out of his car to see what he was up to--yet these things are not illegal. In fact, as one of these "neighborhood watch" folks, I would go as far to say that he is supposed to do such things.

To me, my interpretation of what decision should be made all rests on whether or not he attempted to be a justice vigilante and hold Martin "accountable" for doing absolutely nothing wrong. It's all just very sad.

I think Zimmerman was in the WRONG to disregard authority, WRONG to pursue Martin outside of his car, and WRONG to profile him in the first place. But none of these things are illegal. I then believe that Martin was offended/(scared?) by Zimmerman, instigated the fight when he asked what his business in the neighborhood was, which lead to Zimmerman (horrible fighter) to fight back, and eventually pull the trigger.

Just a tragedy.

[DC Muskie]

I think this is where the whole decision begins and ends for me. Yes, he disregarded authority by pursuing Martin, and by getting out of his car to see what he was up to--yet these things are not illegal. In fact, as one of these "neighborhood watch" folks, I would go as far to say that he is supposed to do such things.

To me, my interpretation of what decision should be made all rests on whether or not he attempted to be a justice vigilante and hold Martin "accountable" for doing absolutely nothing wrong. It's all just very sad.

I think Zimmerman was in the WRONG to disregard authority, WRONG to pursue Martin outside of his car, and WRONG to profile him in the first place. But none of these things are illegal. I then believe that Martin was offended/(scared?) by Zimmerman, instigated the fight when he asked what his business in the neighborhood was, which lead to Zimmerman (horrible fighter) to fight back, and eventually pull the trigger.

Just a tragedy.

Neighborhood watch people are instructed not to pursue. When he pursues, is he still a "neighborhood watch person" at that point? He told police to call him when they were close and he would tell them where he was. Illegal? No. Stupid? Extremely.

Another key point is Zimmerman saying, "These fing punks always getting away with something." That's along with the fact he told police to call him when they were close tells me he was determined to handle this himself.

Remember he thought Martin was a punk. He confronts him and in his mind Martin confirms he is punk by hitting him. I have no shadow of doubt that Zimmerman thought he was fighting a harden criminal, probably the person who robbed his neighbor a few months earlier and killed him.

No doubt Zimmerman wanted to be a hero. Not illegal, which is why I think convicting him on 2nd degree murder is hard to do.

[XU 87]

TM was a "football throw" from home 4 minutes b4 the fight. Estimated time to walk it was 30-40 sec. Estimate to run it was half that. Where was he and how did he end up back at the T ?


That would seem to indicate that while Zimmerman was following him previously, he wasn't following him when the fight occurred. That would also seem to indicate that Martin circled back to confront Zimmerman. Am I correct in my interpretation? What is the "t"?

[Strange Brew]

I'd be happy to answer you questions...

He said he didn't know the kid and looked like he was on drugs.
I hope that helps!

To be clear, Martin did have drugs in his system at the time of death.

[paulxu]

To be clear, Martin did have drugs in his system at the time of death.


That’s a mistake that only serves to distort an already contentious case. The levels of THC detected don’t reflect Martin’s character or even his state of mind the night he was shot. For one, they are so low as to almost certainly not be connected to recent intoxication: 1.5 nanograms of THC were found as well as 7.3 nanograms of THC-COOH, a metabolite of THC that can stay in the system for weeks after cannabis has been smoked. Immediately after inhaling, THC levels typically rise to 100 to 200 nanograms per milliter of blood, although there can be a great deal of variation.

http://healthland.time.com/2012/05/18/traces-of-marijuana-found-in-trayvon-martins-body-does-it-matter-2/#ixzz2YwcB5iuN

[waggy]

Zimmerman's neighbor was robbed and killed?

[bobbiemcgee]

And just in case you don't think this is political:

Gets a raise in May, bum in July.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-07-13/story/state-attorney-angela-corey-fires-information-techonology-director-who

[Mrs. Garrett]

Why does it take balls to confront a teenage boy? OH ... you must mean because he's black.

No race has nothing to do with it. It is my belief that pussies need guns to feel like men.

[flatspat]

Jury just asked judge for clarification on manslaughter charge

[Muskie]

Verdict is in.

[Muskie]

Not guilty.

[Masterofreality]

Not guilty!!!!

[Masterofreality]

Cue the Al Sharpton outrage and rabble rousing.

[xavierj]

DC Muskies head just exploded and he will riot. In all seriousness this whole case and its coverage were very sad and outdated. The media just plays everyone for fools.

[Masterofreality]

Now, how about the media....and we too....turn our attention to a true tragedy- the killing of scores of young black men in Chicago every weekend.

C'mon Sharpton, get involved in that.

[LadyMuskie]

Civil trial to begin in 5, 4, 3, 2 . . .

[Muskie]

Civil trial to begin in 5, 4, 3, 2 . . .
Probably not. I would suspect that Zimmerman probably doesn't have much in the way of personal assets. I'm guessing that all of his marital assets are now in the name of his Wife and that any sort of book proceeds will go into some sort of irrevocable trust.

[kenny powers]

Civil trial to begin in 5, 4, 3, 2 . . .

Actually in Florida, someone who is acquitted on grounds of self defense gets immunity from any civil liability.

http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/776.032.html

[Strange Brew]

http://healthland.time.com/2012/05/18/traces-of-marijuana-found-in-trayvon-martins-body-does-it-matter-2/#ixzz2YwcB5iuN

Never said the man was intoxicated, I was simply responding to DC's post.

[bobbiemcgee]

I think GZ will be a rich man after the NBC suit that accused them of doctoring the original 911 call. They absolutely did do it, causing the public furor to begin. They fired those responsible and Brian Williams apologized (admitting guilt as far as I'm concerned) on TV. I think there will be a huge payday for Georgie and his attorneys. I think the Civil Rights baloney ended when the Jury said "Not Guilty". They were investigating the Sanford Police's handling of the case, not so much GZ.
The Martins already got a million from the HOA, but they will likely sue anybody as long as they don't have to pay for it. They'll likely wait to see if GZ collects on the NBC suit to go after that cash.

[GuyFawkes38]

Thank god it's over. Nothing good could have possibly come out of this. Sometimes legal decisions can be correct but immensely unsatisfying. Time to move on.

[LadyMuskie]

Probably not. I would suspect that Zimmerman probably doesn't have much in the way of personal assets. I'm guessing that all of his marital assets are now in the name of his Wife and that any sort of book proceeds will go into some sort of irrevocable trust.


Actually in Florida, someone who is acquitted on grounds of self defense gets immunity from any civil liability.

http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/776.032.html

I stand corrected. He may not have to worry about a civil trial, but it sounds like he might have to worry about federal prosecution.
http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/national/justice-department-george-zimmerman-case-under-review

[XU 87]

If he gets charged again based on federal charges, that will be beyond disgraceful.

[LA Muskie]

Actually in Florida, someone who is acquitted on grounds of self defense gets immunity from any civil liability.

http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/776.032.html

There will be a civil suit. It will be against the city, which is the real "pocket" anyway.

[bobbiemcgee]

There will be a civil suit. It will be against the city, which is the real "pocket" anyway.

For what? Do they sue Chicago when the 500 people a year die after being shot in that city??

[xubrew]

I think the best thing Zimmerman can do is put this behind him and continue to pursue his dream of becoming a police officer.

[XUFan09]

I think the best thing Zimmerman can do is put this behind him and continue to pursue his dream of becoming a police officer.

Well played.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

[LA Muskie]

For what? Do they sue Chicago when the 500 people a year die after being shot in that city??

I didn't say they would win. But I expect the family will argue that it took too long for the police to arrive and, had they responded faster, his death would have been prevented.

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[XU 87]

I didn't say they would win. But I expect the family will argue that it took too long for the police to arrive and, had they responded faster, his death would have been prevented.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

If Florida law is similar to Ohio law, I don't think there is any way they prevail on that theory.

[Juice]

If Florida law is similar to Ohio law, I don't think there is any way they prevail on that theory.

Yeah I highly doubt any state legislature leaves open things like that civil suit that would 1) open their civil servants up to horrible scrutiny and 2) allow the people to sue the city/county/state and have them on the hook for large sums of money.

[LA Muskie]

Yeah I highly doubt any state legislature leaves open things like that civil suit that would 1) open their civil servants up to horrible scrutiny and 2) allow the people to sue the city/county/state and have them on the hook for large sums of money.

Actually police negligence actions are fairly common in most jurisdictions. And from my quick google review of FL policy, a broad statutory waiver of governmental tort immunity has been interpreted to include claims of police negligence.

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[Xman95]

What I find funny/sad is how the response has been predictably divided down racial lines. I think back to the OJ Simpson verdict. There was video of large groups of black people celebrating it. Yes, CELEBRATING it. Many white people were bitter. (Personally, I think painting Furman as a racist and questioning a missing vile of blood - along with some other issues - raised enough question in the case.) Now that Zimmerman has been found not guilty, you can again see the group response in pictures and videos.

Why, when OJ was found guilty, did the majority of black people celebrate but, with Zimmerman being found not guilty, the majority of black people are now angry? Why were so many white people angry with the OJ decision, but the Zimmerman decision is ok? Keep in mind that most of these people have no personal connection to these trials and will not be directly affected. And many, if not most, probably have no clue about the facts of the cases. They are simply basing it on what the key players look like. That, to me, is extremely sad.

[Nigel Tufnel]

What I find funny/sad is how the response has been predictably divided down racial lines. I think back to the OJ Simpson verdict. There was video of large groups of black people celebrating it. Many white people were bitter. (Personally, I think painting Furman as a racist and questioning a missing vile of blood raised enough question in the case.) Now that Zimmerman has been found not guilty, you can again see the group response in pictures and videos.

Why, when OJ was found guilty, did the majority of black people celebrate but, when Zimmerman being found not guilty, the majority of black people are now angry? Why were so many white people angry with the OJ decision, but the Zimmerman decision is ok? Keep in mind that most of these people probably have no clue about the facts of the cases. They are basing it on what the key players look like. That, to me, is extremely sad.

Have you seen Chris Rock's stand up Bring The Pain, Russ? If you have, you ripped him off. If you haven't, then you should watch it. Among the best stand up performances I've seen. He talks about the OJ Verdict. Says black people were too happy and white people were too mad. Talked about people shouting, "we won!" and how he never received his prize from the verdict in the mail.

I've kind of stayed away from this Zimmerman trial. From what I've read, I agree with someone else's post...it was the correct legal decision...but it doesn't leave a good taste on the palate.

[Juice]

Actually police negligence actions are fairly common in most jurisdictions. And from my quick google review of FL policy, a broad statutory waiver of governmental tort immunity has been interpreted to include claims of police negligence.

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This was from Wikipedia so take it however you want but I highly doubt you can prove negligence with this response time by police.


7:09:34 - 7:13:41 — George Zimmerman calls the Sanford Police Department (SPD) from his truck; total time of the call is 4 minutes 7 seconds.[13]
7:11:33 — Zimmerman tells the police dispatcher that Trayvon Martin is running.
7:11:59 — In reply to the dispatcher's question, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman responds with, "Yes." Dispatcher: "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman: "OK."
7:12:00 - 7:12:59 — The girl calls Martin again at some point during this minute.[14]
7:13:10 — Zimmerman says he does not know Martin's location.
7:13:41 — The end of Zimmerman's call to Sanford police.[14]
7:16:00 - 7:16:59 — Martin's call from the girl goes dead during this minute.[14][15]
7:16:11 — First 911 call from witness about a fight, calls for help heard.[16]
7:16:55 — Gunshot heard on 911 call.[17]
7:17 — The first office officer on the scene, Officer T. Smith arrives by squad car at Retreat View.[18]

[LA Muskie]

This was from Wikipedia so take it however you want but I highly doubt you can prove negligence with this response time by police.

Yeah if true that's pretty compelling. Although I never thought they could prove it regardless. I just thought they would likely claim it.

[Juice]

Yeah if true that's pretty compelling. Although I never thought they could prove it regardless. I just thought they would likely claim it.

Probably pretty easily with a CAD report from police.

[PM Thor]

"Negligence" in terms of first responders and response times is an incredibly hard thing to prove. They might try to claim it, but with a response time of less than 4 minutes from the end of the call to the first cop on scene? Sanford is a relatively small town and that's a darn good response time, especially for something so minor as a suspicious character call (which initially is what it was).
I think the lawyers would realize they would be wasting their time going after the police department on that one.

[Kahns Krazy]

I don't understand why people are protesting the Zimmerman verdict locally. Shouldn't we be far more worried about the dozens of black men who have been killed in our city this without anyone being held responsible?

I understand why people might be frustrated at the decision, but I don't understand the disproportionate response versus what happens here on a weekly basis.

[More Cowbell]

If there’s a zombie apocalypse right after the Zimmerman acquittal, Trayvon will be right there looting with everybody else.

too soon?

[xubrew]

I don't understand why people are protesting the Zimmerman verdict locally. Shouldn't we be far more worried about the dozens of black men who have been killed in our city this without anyone being held responsible?

I understand why people might be frustrated at the decision, but I don't understand the disproportionate response versus what happens here on a weekly basis.

Yes you do. You think it's ridiculous, and it is, but I bet that you totally understand it. I would have been shocked had there not been protests.

People are pissed off in general, and they're using this specific incident to voice and protest all of their general frustrations. They were protesting in LA, as well, I think.

[xeus]

I don't understand why people are protesting the Zimmerman verdict locally. Shouldn't we be far more worried about the dozens of black men who have been killed in our city this without anyone being held responsible?

I understand why people might be frustrated at the decision, but I don't understand the disproportionate response versus what happens here on a weekly basis.

Couldn't agree more. I'm hoping DC Muskie can shine his keen intellect on this issue and help us understand.

[SemajParlor]

For what? Do they sue Chicago when the 500 people a year die after being shot in that city??

11 people were killed there just this weekend, and 67 this month alone. Sad. Summertime only escalates the violence.

[SemajParlor]

If there’s a zombie apocalypse right after the Zimmerman acquittal, Trayvon will be right there looting with everybody else.

too soon?

Yikes. Looks like we got one of those people, pathetic.

[xubrew]

Couldn't agree more. I'm hoping DC Muskie can shine his keen intellect on this issue and help us understand.

What don't you understand??

People are pissed in general. When people are pissed in general, they get more pissed about specific incidents and they juxtapose their general frustrations onto that incident. It happens all the time in various degrees with any and all types of groups. It's normal.

Are you surprised by the protests?? If you're not, then it must make SOME sense to you.

[paulxu]

People are pissed in general. When people are pissed in general, they get more pissed about specific incidents and they juxtapose their general frustrations onto that incident. It happens all the time in various degrees with any and all types of groups. It's normal.

See brawl...Cincinnati, OH...Crosstown Shootout.

[nuts4xu]

What don't you understand??

I don't understand what sense it makes to protest in Cincinnati about an incident that happened over 1000 miles away in Orlando FL.

If you want to protest the verdict, why here? Do you think that will send a message to the people of Orlando? Or are you just looking for a reason to shout and yell at the police?

I get they are protesting, I am not surprised they are protesting, but the place they are protesting seems dumb and a complete waste of time....especially in this heat.

[xeus]

What don't you understand??

People are pissed in general. When people are pissed in general, they get more pissed about specific incidents and they juxtapose their general frustrations onto that incident. It happens all the time in various degrees with any and all types of groups. It's normal.

Are you surprised by the protests?? If you're not, then it must make SOME sense to you.

What are people protesting? A jury verdict? The justice system? White people? Guns? Mexicans?

It's about as silly as the Occupy Wall Street protests.

[xubrew]

What are people protesting? A jury verdict? The justice system? White people? Guns? Mexicans?

It's about as silly as the Occupy Wall Street protests.

Yes.

It's not practical, but it is entirely understandable why it's happening.