Ashley Howard Gone

[ammtd34]

To Villanova

http://cityofbasketballlove.com/2013/05/ashley-howard-joins-wright-nova/

[ballyhoohoo]

There goes Melvin swift

[DC Muskie]

Jesus.

[xudash]

Is it a given that we'll lose Swift?

I know kids change their minds, and probably more often than any of us like, but a question here would be about Howard's relationship with Mack and why he decided to leave. It sounds like Howard wanted to go home. I hope it's no more and no less about that; it isn't about Xavier having been a bad experience for him. It's that an opportunity in his home town opened up, and at a now fellow Big East school.

Ashley Howard SOLD Swift on Xavier. I know he can sell Swift on Nova, but would he; will he?

Some of the responses to this, if any, will focus on the reality of recruiting in college basketball and the fact that it is a cutthroat business.

I would like to think that, just once, Ashley had first made sure a baseline relationship had been created between Swift and Chris, and that Ashley otherwise made one of his final acts at Xavier a phone call, assuring Swift that he will have an excellent career on Victory Parkway.

[DC Muskie]

Is it a given that we'll lose Swift?

I know kids change their minds, and probably more often than any of us like, but a question here would be about Howard's relationship with Mack and why he decided to leave. It sounds like Howard wanted to go home. I hope it's no more and no less about that; it isn't about Xavier having been a bad experience for him. It's that an opportunity in his home town opened up, and at a now fellow Big East school.

Ashley Howard SOLD Swift on Xavier. I know he can sell Swift on Nova, but would he; will he?

Some of the responses to this, if any, will focus on the reality of recruiting in college basketball and the fact that it is a cutthroat business.

I would like to think that, just once, Ashley had first made sure a baseline relationship had been created between Swift and Chris, and that Ashley otherwise made one of his final acts at Xavier a phone call, assuring Swift that he will have an excellent career on Victory Parkway.

We have seen this before and we will see this again...

Kids will move when the assistant moves. There's too much time before the kid steps on campus.

My initial reaction is I'm getting pissed we seem to replace assistants every freaking year. Maybe I have that wrong, but it sure as hell looks that way.

[kyxu]

My initial reaction is I'm getting pissed we seem to replace assistants every freaking year. Maybe I have that wrong, but it sure as hell looks that way.

I was just about to type this. When I saw that Ashley Howard was leaving Xavier, I thought "who is Ashley Howard?" Apparently, he's been an assistant at Xavier for a season. Our most seasoned assistant is Travis Steele, who is younger than some XH posters' grandkids.

We lose assistants every year, some say that's a good thing, as it shows we are doing something right. But there's certainly negatives to it when it comes to recruiting.

I hope we can keep Swift.

[kyxu]

I would like to think that, just once, Ashley had first made sure a baseline relationship had been created between Swift and Chris, and that Ashley otherwise made one of his final acts at Xavier a phone call, assuring Swift that he will have an excellent career on Victory Parkway.

Yeah, I doubt that happened.

[Titanxman04]

It happens every year when we seem to get a great recruit, and then they change their minds. Kids are fickle and they go with what's familiar. I expect Swift to go to Nova, should they have room for him, but if doesn't, well then we are fine.

If he does bolt, I think Mack and Co. will find a solution.

[XU2011]

but a question here would be about Howard's relationship with Mack and why he decided to leave. It sounds like Howard wanted to go home. I hope it's no more and no less about that; it isn't about Xavier having been a bad experience for him. It's that an opportunity in his home town opened up, and at a now fellow Big East school.

.

Wasn't there an article around the time of the BE announcement that talked about Howard and Mack told the story about how soon after he came to Xavier last spring, he was offered a position at Villanova... his hometown, BE school, etc. and still decided to stay at Xavier. If he turned the Villanova job down last year before he ever started at X, when X was still in the A-10, when it was clear X was going to have a rough year.... but then takes it this year. I'd think there's some reason for concern with that.

[XU2011]

I would like to think that, just once, Ashley had first made sure a baseline relationship had been created between Swift and Chris, and that Ashley otherwise made one of his final acts at Xavier a phone call, assuring Swift that he will have an excellent career on Victory Parkway.

Was that a serious statement?

[paulxu]

Villanova has plenty of room (no one committed) for their 2014 class.
A bright spot may be that in this years class they have an incoming 4 star SF, a 4 and a 3 star PFs.
Maybe there won't be any room for playing time for Swift and he'll stay with X.

[rove02]

Things seemed to be going so well this off season too. Is it impossible to make it through an off season without bad news? I really don't want to lose Swift.

[casualfan]

When you hire an assistant based largely on his recruiting ties and ability to get players it typically stands to reason that when that assistant leaves the players go with him.

I'm not saying Swift will definitely open it up, but I'm also not holding my breath.

I'm less concerned with Swift and more concerned with the inability to keep assistants around. I understand guys are going to move on to bigger and better things (i.e. Richardson to Louisville). Having said that in the past two years we have now lost assistants to Villanova and Manhattan.

A few years ago Kelsey cited depression as a major reason for leaving the game only to resurface less than a year later.

I guess I'm just wondering if this is routine turnover or if something else is going on.

[ammtd34]

When you hire an assistant based largely on his recruiting ties and ability to get players it typically stands to reason that when that assistant leaves the players go with him.

I'm not saying Swift will definitely open it up, but I'm also not holding my breath.

I'm less concerned with Swift and more concerned with the inability to keep assistants around. I understand guys are going to move on to bigger and better things (i.e. Richardson to Louisville). Having said that in the past two years we have now lost assistants to Villanova and Manhattan.

A few years ago Kelsey cited depression as a major reason for leaving the game only to resurface less than a year later.

I guess I'm just wondering if this is routine turnover or if something else is going on.

Seems routine to me. In the last two years, Louisville has lost three assistants. One went to Missouri, one to Missouri-Kansas City, and the other to Minnesota.

[DC Muskie]

Seems routine to me. In the last two years, Louisville has lost three assistants. One went to Missouri, one to Missouri-Kansas City, and the other to Minnesota.

When we have a Hall of Fame coach, a few Final Four appearances and National Championship under our belt, I will be less concerned about staff turnover.

[XU2011]

Seems routine to me. In the last two years, Louisville has lost three assistants. One went to Missouri, one to Missouri-Kansas City, and the other to Minnesota.

Huh? One went to Manhattan as a head coach, another to FIU as a head coach and a third to Missouri-KC as a head coach.

We are losing assistants to other assistant positions. When was the last time an assistant that left X left for a HC job?

[PMI]

I think everyone is overreacting a bit. Howard is very, very replaceable. It sucks that Swift's future at Xavier now appears up in the air, but whoever we hire is going to be a great recruiter with great connections in a great basketball area, and we'll be fine. This is a hiccup, nothing more. It's not even a foregone conclusion that Swift is gone, and if he still were to come, this would literally have zero negative impact on the program. There are FAR more aspiring assistant coaches who land jobs by pulling in recruits out there than there are basketball programs at Xavier's level. I slept just fine last night.

[THRILLHOUSE]

From Shannon Russell on Twitter:

Shannon Russell ‏@slrussell 49s
One big reason Howard left? $$$. I heard he'll be paid $40K more at Nova. #Xavier needs to up its money game now that it's in the BE.

[casualfan]

Seems routine to me. In the last two years, Louisville has lost three assistants. One went to Missouri, one to Missouri-Kansas City, and the other to Minnesota.

Not exactly apples to apples. Two of the three left to become head coaches and the other got a promotion to associate head coach. Richardson left Louisville to be the head coach at Missouri-Kansas City. Tim Fuller left Louisville where he was an assistant coach to become the associate head coach at Missouri (i.e. he got promoted). Richard Pitino got the head job at Minnesota.


The guys we have lost, with the exception of Kelsey, left for the same position elsewhere.

[BMoreX]

@slrussell: One big reason Howard left? $$$. I heard he'll be paid $40K more at Nova. #Xavier needs to up its money game now that it's in the BE.

[DC Muskie]

I think everyone is overreacting a bit. Howard is very, very replaceable. It sucks that Swift's future at Xavier now appears up in the air, but whoever we hire is going to be a great recruiter with great connections in a great basketball area, and we'll be fine. This is a hiccup, nothing more. It's not even a foregone conclusion that Swift is gone, and if he still were to come, this would literally have zero negative impact on the program. There are FAR more aspiring assistant coaches who land jobs by pulling in recruits out there than there are basketball programs at Xavier's level. I slept just fine last night.

So assistants don't really matter in the end?

[PMI]

Here's my question. Does Xavier really need to step up to the plate and pay $40,000 more a year to keep an Ashley Howard? He's just a recruiter with connections to young, impressionable kids who can play basketball. Dime a dozen. Guys like Travis Steele, you pay. There are plenty of Ashley Howards out there. He brought us Chris Cantino (thanks, I guess) and got us a verbal from Melvin Swift, who has not yet de-committed and possibly will still come to Xavier. In the coming days or weeks, we'll hire a new young, hungry assistant with connections to a specific basketball-heavy area who has a whole new network of basketball talent that we didn't have yesterday. This is hardly a death sentence.

[PMI]

So assistants don't really matter in the end?

They matter for recruiting. Ashley Howard is responsible for using a scholarship on Chris Cantino, and he landed a verbal from a guy who by all accounts could be really good, but hasn't even de-committed yet. Do you really think guys like Ashley Howard have other responsibilities that are anywhere near as significant as recruiting?

[ammtd34]

Huh? One went to Manhattan as a head coach, another to FIU as a head coach and a third to Missouri-KC as a head coach.

We are losing assistants to other assistant positions. When was the last time an assistant that left X left for a HC job?

Tim Fuller left Louisville to be an assistant at Missouri. I know it's not apples to apples. That wasn't the point. The point is that assistants move.

[DC Muskie]

They matter for recruiting. Ashley Howard is responsible for using a scholarship on Chris Cantino, and he landed a verbal from a guy who by all accounts could be really good, but hasn't even de-committed yet. Do you really think guys like Ashley Howard have other responsibilities that are anywhere near as significant as recruiting?

I would consider bringing in the assets (i.e. players) to be the single biggest responsibility. Recruiting is not an easy job. Howard couldn't land Hart and Jenkins for us, but will coach them at Nova. He'll be able to land those types of players at Nova in the future. If Swift leaves our year investment in him returned nothing. That's not what I want out assistant coaches year after year.

[casualfan]

They matter for recruiting. Chris Mack is responsible for using a scholarship on Chris Cantino

Fixed that for you. His program, his call. Howard may have been the lead on Cantino, but the ultimate decision to give him a scholarship was Mack's (or at least it should have been).

[PMI]

I would consider bringing in the assets (i.e. players) to be the single biggest responsibility. Recruiting is not an easy job. Howard couldn't land Hart and Jenkins for us, but will coach them at Nova. He'll be able to land those types of players at Nova in the future. If Swift leaves our year investment in him returned nothing. That's not what I want out assistant coaches year after year.

When Hart and Jenkins committed, Villanova was in the Big East and we were not. Big difference. Not to mention he was not the lead recruiter for EITHER of them. Mike Pegues was. And yes, bringing in players is an enormous job, but it's not a job that Ashley Howard is exclusively special at. I don't think everyone has a clear understanding of just how many guys there are like Ashley Howard out there compared to how few programs like Xavier there are. I'm not saying I wanted Howard to leave, but this hardly calls for an overreaction in my mind.


Fixed that for you. His program, his call. Howard may have been the lead on Cantino, but the ultimate decision to give him a scholarship was Mack's (or at least it should have been).

Well, that's kind of the point, isn't it? Ultimately, Mack is who matters. Mack may be able to keep Swift for all we know. And Mack will hire another young, hungry assistant who can recruit a strong area, and it will open up a whole new network of great players we weren't in on before. This has every bit as much a chance to be a good thing for us as it does to be a bad thing.

[DC Muskie]

When Hart and Jenkins committed, Villanova was in the Big East and we were not. Big difference. Not to mention he was not the lead recruiter for EITHER of them. Mike Pegues was. And yes, bringing in players is an enormous job, but it's not a job that Ashley Howard is exclusively special at. I don't think everyone has a clear understanding of just how many guys there are like Ashley Howard out there compared to how few programs like Xavier there are. I'm not saying I wanted Howard to leave, but this hardly calls for an overreaction in my mind.

We have won recruits over the Big East before.

Personally I don't think we should have a revolving door in our assistant jobs. We are great program, no doubt...but we ain't THAT great.

[XU2011]

. And yes, bringing in players is an enormous job, but it's not a job that Ashley Howard is exclusively special at. I don't think everyone has a clear understanding of just how many guys there are like Ashley Howard out there compared to how few programs like Xavier there are. I'm not saying I wanted Howard to leave, but this hardly calls for an overreaction in my mind.
.

I don't think the overreaction is losing Ashley Howard or thinking he is something extraordinarily special in terms of recruiting (although possibly losing Swift will hurt significantly). It's more of a question as to why we can't keep assistants longer than a year. I think that question at least deserves some discussion. It's not as if our assistants are leaving Xavier and moving on to head coaching positions. We have continued turnover in assistants moving to other assistant positions. You keep talking about the next hungry, young asst coming in with great recruiting connections. Great. I have no doubt we'll land one. But what happens when he leaves in a year or two and takes his recruits with him. You need to have some continuity in your program.

[PMI]

I don't think the overreaction is losing Ashley Howard or thinking he is something extraordinarily special in terms of recruiting (although possibly losing Swift will hurt significantly). It's more of a question as to why we can't keep assistants longer than a year. I think that question at least deserves some discussion. It's not as if our assistants are leaving Xavier and moving on to head coaching positions. We have continued turnover in assistants moving to other assistant positions. You keep talking about the next hungry, young asst coming in with great recruiting connections. Great. I have no doubt we'll land one. But what happens when he leaves in a year or two and takes his recruits with him. You need to have some continuity in your program.

I don't mean to delegitimize that concern, and ideally I'd love a completely stable staff of stars too. Ashley Howard, by all accounts, was good at his job, which is to recruit. I sure as hell hope we can still keep Swift too because I think he could be a special player. But with assistant coaches (particularly the kind who are here almost solely to recruit, unlike a Travis Steele who has more of an associate head coach type role) there is always going to be the risk that you lose them. The reason I'm not worried that this is a dire long-term issue is that our basketball budget is only growing. Ashley Howard is getting $40,000 more per year and is going home. If Mack felt that keeping Howard were some sort of a must, I think Xavier would've ponied up and given him a little more than that. I don't think we're incapable of that. But I think Mack does not think that that was a necessary expenditure. Yes, we've lost guys the last couple years to lesser or parallel jobs, but every case is different, and none were anything close to make or breaks. I don't really buy the argument that it's a bad sign to lose assistants unless they're getting head coaching jobs. Nobody in the world (OK, maybe Wake Forest) would hire an assistant who's almost exclusively a recruiter at Xavier. It just won't happen. A guy like Travis Steele or Pat Kelsey is a different situation because they have bigger assistant coaching roles.

I'm not saying this isn't unfortunate for us, but it's not the end of the world. In fact, it could end up just opening up a new door to bigger and better things for all we know.

[casualfan]

Here are Mack's thoughts: (http://cincinnati.com/blogs/xavier/2013/05/23/howard-leaving-for-villanova/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

“As a head coach, there is nothing more important from a program-building standpoint than continuity on your staff. With regard to the recruiting process, staff turnover greatly hampers your ability to build 2 and 3-year relationships with high school prospects. Although it is difficult to make an assistant coaching position a ‘destination job,’ I am working closely with our administration to ensure that we are as financially competitive as we can be with all of our staff positions.”

[xudash]

Was that a serious statement?

Seriously, not really; more wishful thinking on my part.

[paulxu]

Is paying Ashley Howard $40k more a year really just an investment to purchase Melvin Swift's services?

[xudash]

Here are Mack's thoughts: (http://cincinnati.com/blogs/xavier/2013/05/23/howard-leaving-for-villanova/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

“As a head coach, there is nothing more important from a program-building standpoint than continuity on your staff. With regard to the recruiting process, staff turnover greatly hampers your ability to build 2 and 3-year relationships with high school prospects. Although it is difficult to make an assistant coaching position a ‘destination job,’ I am working closely with our administration to ensure that we are as financially competitive as we can be with all of our staff positions.”


I like PMI's take on all this.

Otherwise, it appears to have been a money issue for Ashley Howard, coupled with the opportunity to go home. On an after-tax basis, a $40k bump with relocation to Philly is a financial step ahead for him, meaning that, though Philly's higher cost of living is clearly going to eat into the $40k, especially if he wants to live close to Nova (i.e. mainline housing costs) he's still going to come out ahead.

Chris clearly understands what has to happen from here, especially given that our business model is now based in the BE and not the A10. Could Chris have counter-offered Ashley to retain him? That's a complicated question. Perhaps some discussion for adjusting his salary was pursued, but it wasn't pursued aggressively because of the 'going home' factor. Xavier, due to current strategic planning and budgeting related issues, probably wasn't in any position to react quickly on this. When you are "working closely with our administration" to ensure financial competitiveness, that's an indication that no one is in any position to pull a quick trigger on spending.

Finally, we'll see what Melvin is all about. He'll either still land at Victory Parkway, because he truly likes it and that bond is above and beyond what he developed with Ashley Howard, or he'll be more opportunistic. His circle of advisors will/may put noise on the wire for him to consider as well. We'll see, the Xavier program continues adjusting on its upward trajectory.

[DC Muskie]

Is paying Ashley Howard $40k more a year really just an investment to purchase Melvin Swift's services?

Or is the cost of living adjustment from Cincinnati to Philadelphia 40K for the same amount of work?

[casualfan]

Or is the cost of living adjustment from Cincinnati to Philadelphia 40K for the same amount of work?

according to this (http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx) the % increase to maintain the same standard of living moving from Cincy to Philly is 33.69%.

[DC Muskie]

according to this (http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx) the % increase to maintain the same standard of living moving from Cincy to Philly is 33.69%.

Good find. So he got a little bump.

Philly is not worth the increase in my opinion. Not even at 95% increase. City of farts.

[XUFan09]

Because of the "going home" factor, I wonder if Xavier would have had to pay Howard a decent bit beyond a matching salary to keep him.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

[casualfan]

Because of the "going home" factor, I wonder if Xavier would have had to pay Howard a decent bit beyond a matching salary to keep him.

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ehh, idk. The "going home" factor was in play last year when he turned them down.

[XU2011]

ehh, idk. The "going home" factor was in play last year when he turned them down.

That’s the part that is concerning. Last year he had a chance to go home, coach in the Big East, get paid more and going into a year when Xavier was likely to have a very down year. No connection to X. Now, he’s been at Xavier a year, recruited for and coached kids at Xavier, part of the Big East now, Xavier has a solid group coming back and new recruits…. and this is the year he bails. After already being at X. For $40k more when cost of living is 33% more.

I guess one could maybe argue he missed Philly more than he thought he would, but it still makes you wonder.

[muskiefan82]

That’s the part that is concerning. Last year he had a chance to go home, coach in the Big East, get paid more and going into a year when Xavier was likely to have a very down year. No connection to X. Now, he’s been at Xavier a year, recruited for and coached kids at Xavier, part of the Big East now, Xavier has a solid group coming back and new recruits…. and this is the year he bails. After already being at X. For $40k more when cost of living is 33% more.

I guess one could maybe argue he missed Philly more than he thought he would, but it still makes you wonder.

When a decision that a man makes doesn't make sense, look for the woman involved.

[bleedXblue]

I'm not buying the "going home" theory........

If this guy wants a career in college coaching, there's a 99% chance that if he ever gets to the head coaching level it won't be in Philly.

Villanova is a lateral move in my opinion.

I'm just sensing something else going on here......

We've had a lot of turnover with assistants in Macks tenure.....?

[XUFan09]

ehh, idk. The "going home" factor was in play last year when he turned them down.

It could be what XU2011 is referring to, or it could be a case of honoring a commitment, or it could be looking for a chance to work with a program in a different area of the country, or it could be a chance to coach with a different style, or it could be more money this time, or it could be something else entirely as to why he took an offer that he had declined a year ago.

And though they aren't on drastically different levels, Villanova is better than Xavier. It's the wishful thinking of fans to claim otherwise. Xavier is the fourth or fifth most successful program in the Big East.

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[gladdenguy]

Chalk this up as another reason Chris Mack would leave Xavier. Again, this is something that is out of Mack's control just like the Dez situation.
This cheap ass university better start forking money over to the success of the basketball program and quit making stupid decisions that hinder the basketball program or else Xavier is gonna turn into a better version of Depaul.

I feel for Chris Mack. When he leaves nobody should be surprised.

[Xman95]

Our most seasoned assistant is Travis Steele

Question: what big time talents has Steele landed for X? He's often regarded as a phenomenal recruiter with great connections, especially in Indiana. I'm not asking that as any sort of trick question. It's just difficult to keep tabs on which players an assistant may have been the lead recruiter for.

[Muskie]

Question: what big time talents has Steele landed for X? He's often regarded as a phenomenal recruiter with great connections, especially in Indiana. I'm not asking that as any sort of trick question. It's just difficult to keep tabs on which players an assistant may have been the lead recruiter for.
I can think of a bunch of near misses... was he in on Tu and possibly Dee?

**realize Tu is from NY, but maybe involved transfer wise?

[Masterofreality]

How about the alumni and friends stepping up their giving?

Look, Xavier has a lot of stuff going on and still has one of the lowest endowments. We can rail all we want about whether the admins are allocating enough money, but the increased money has to come from the University "family". We don't have the public support that a crap hole like SucKS does. How many more times can they raise tuition?

While this is an easy target for Father Graham haters to pontificate, all of us Xavier connected have to step up more.

I have added to my contributions- and not just to basketball.....will everybody else?

Not bragging....just fact.

[xudash]

It could be what XU2011 is referring to, or it could be a case of honoring a commitment, or it could be looking for a chance to work with a program in a different area of the country, or it could be a chance to coach with a different style, or it could be more money this time, or it could be something else entirely as to why he took an offer that he had declined a year ago.

And though they aren't on drastically different levels, Villanova is better than Xavier. It's the wishful thinking of fans to claim otherwise. Xavier is the fourth or fifth most successful program in the Big East.

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I understand using historical data to arrive at certain conclusions for things, but I'm a little hard pressed to arrive at conclusions, utilizing historical data that have now been made obsolete, in a sense, by virtue of a material change in the program's status: namely, a conference change, which, in our case, puts us on at least the same footing as Villanova.

More to the point, now that we're in the same conference, given our facilities and ability to recruit nationally, I don't see us taking a back seat to any BE program over time.

I absolutely don't believe that this is about Chris Mack being a tyrant as a boss.

People change their minds about things. So he passed up an opportunity last year to go home. So what? Did that opportunity include a $40k bump as well, notwithstanding the COL adjustment?

If we've learned anything about the mechanics and goings on of high-level men's collegiate basketball, it's that it is fluid, to say the least.

Mack has essentially identified the corrective measure for enhancing Xavier's ability to REDUCE turnover in its assistant coaching ranks: more competitive salary packages. Allow for the $3 million per year to start filling up our bank account and chances will be good that the administration will sign-off on request.

[Muskie]

How about the alumni and friends stepping up their giving?

Look, Xavier has a lot of stuff going on and still has one of the lowest endowments. We can rail all we want about whether the admins are allocating enough money, but the increased money has to come from the University "family". We don't have the public support that a crap hole like SucKS does. How many more times can they raise tuition?

While this is an easy target for Father Graham haters to pontificate, all of us Xavier connected have to step up more.

I have added to my contributions- and not just to basketball.....will everybody else?

Not bragging....just fact.

Has X attempted to raise money just to increase the endowment? as opposed to improvement projects in recent memory? I'm not coming up with anything off the top of my head.

[ammtd34]

Question: what big time talents has Steele landed for X? He's often regarded as a phenomenal recruiter with great connections, especially in Indiana. I'm not asking that as any sort of trick question. It's just difficult to keep tabs on which players an assistant may have been the lead recruiter for.

Semaj.

[casualfan]

Question: what big time talents has Steele landed for X? He's often regarded as a phenomenal recruiter with great connections, especially in Indiana. I'm not asking that as any sort of trick question. It's just difficult to keep tabs on which players an assistant may have been the lead recruiter for.

I'm not sure about big time talents, but according to rivals here is who he has been the lead on:

2009:

Jeff Robinson

2010:

Justin Martin

2011:

Dee Davis
Jalen Reynolds

2012:

Nobody

2013:

Nobody

2014:

Nobody

[xudash]

Has X attempted to raise money just to increase the endowment? as opposed to improvement projects in recent memory? I'm not coming up with anything off the top of my head.

Notwithstanding what I wrote earlier about relying partially on the new TV money, I agree with MOR completely.

Otherwise, in response to your question, most recent campaigns have primarily fed capital projects, but the next one up will be endowment-centric.

[Xman95]

Finally, we'll see what Melvin is all about. He'll either still land at Victory Parkway, because he truly likes it and that bond is above and beyond what he developed with Ashley Howard, or he'll be more opportunistic. His circle of advisors will/may put noise on the wire for him to consider as well. We'll see, the Xavier program continues adjusting on its upward trajectory.

Sounds like you're taking shots at the kid if he decides to decommit. Why? "Opportunistic" makes him sound like he's just waiting to cash in on the next big opportunity. Maybe his bond with Howard is stronger than his bond with Mack/X. Maybe he sees Howard, the lead recruiter of his services for X, going to Villanova - a team with a little more success, in a bigger market, in the same conference - and he chooses to follow him. How does that tell us what Swift is all about?

Plus you had to throw the "circle of advisors" in there, as if the only way X doesn't land a kid is because someone is polluting his mind and turning him into a selfish, "opportunistic" jackass. Why can't it just be as simple as Xavier is no longer the fit for him? Hopefully he sticks with X, but we shouldn't be ripping this kid if he doesn't.

[danaandvictory]

Question: what big time talents has Steele landed for X? He's often regarded as a phenomenal recruiter with great connections, especially in Indiana. I'm not asking that as any sort of trick question. It's just difficult to keep tabs on which players an assistant may have been the lead recruiter for.

Semaj Christon and Dee Davis would be two examples. He was also the lead on Brandon Randolph once X got involved and managed to get the verbal from DSR (but was obviously undone by forces beyond Xavier's control). I also believe he was the main guy on Edmond Sumner but could be wrong.

[Muskie]

Notwithstanding what I wrote earlier about relying partially on the new TV money, I agree with MOR completely.

Otherwise, in response to your question, most recent campaigns have primarily fed capital projects, but the next one up will be endowment-centric.

I agree with MOR as well by the way.

[TUclutch]

All I know is Xavier better start upping the money they put into the program(recruiting, assistant coaches, etc) by a very substantial amount. Without a football program to lose money, the majority should be going to the mens basketball program. Being in the Big East helps, but money is what is going to take the program to the next level. The majority of the 2+ million a year from the new deal better go to the mens program rather than be spread throughout the whole department.

[Xman95]

I'm not sure about big time talents, but according to rivals here is who he has been the lead on:


Thanks. That answered a couple questions. First, who was he the lead recruiter for? Second, has he helped land any big time talent? It seems the answer to the second one is, "no." At least none of them are big time yet.

Robinson...sloppy seconds from Purdue (and a player that never developed).
Martin...grabbed after bailing from Louisville (and so far a player that hasn't developed much more than Robinson - but, hey, he's only 35-yrs-old so there's still time!)
Davis...solid PG, but nothing special; other PG recruit we were going after is now headed to NBA (Shane Larkin)
Reynolds...we're waiting to see; talent seems to be there, but will he develop?

[Xman95]

Semaj Christon and Dee Davis would be two examples. He was also the lead on Brandon Randolph once X got involved and managed to get the verbal from DSR (but was obviously undone by forces beyond Xavier's control). I also believe he was the main guy on Edmond Sumner but could be wrong.

If Semaj, Randolph and Sumner are guys Steele landed, then his resume just got a lot better!

[ammtd34]

If Semaj, Randolph and Sumner are guys Steele landed, then his resume just got a lot better!

The first two definitely are. I'm not sure about Sumner.

[GoMuskies]

Melvin Swift should do what's best for him just as any 17 year-old should. Hopefully it's Xavier, but it would be hard to fault anyone who decided Villanova was a better place to be. It's even in the only part of Philly that doesn't suck.

[PMI]

Here are Mack's thoughts: (http://cincinnati.com/blogs/xavier/2013/05/23/howard-leaving-for-villanova/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

“As a head coach, there is nothing more important from a program-building standpoint than continuity on your staff. With regard to the recruiting process, staff turnover greatly hampers your ability to build 2 and 3-year relationships with high school prospects. Although it is difficult to make an assistant coaching position a ‘destination job,’ I am working closely with our administration to ensure that we are as financially competitive as we can be with all of our staff positions.”

To me, this is Mack's way of taking advantage of an opportunity. In no way do I believe Mack is lamenting the loss of Ashley Howard the way some people here seem to be. It's a business and Mack will find a great person to replace him. But you might as take the opportunity to let the school know that the program could use more support, having just joined a conference with some much richer programs than we've been matched up with in the past.


Chalk this up as another reason Chris Mack would leave Xavier. Again, this is something that is out of Mack's control just like the Dez situation.
This cheap ass university better start forking money over to the success of the basketball program and quit making stupid decisions that hinder the basketball program or else Xavier is gonna turn into a better version of Depaul.

I feel for Chris Mack. When he leaves nobody should be surprised.

I'm not sure how you can really chalk it up to the university being cheap. I think this is a huge overreaction to a relatively minor hiccup for the program. Xavier just spent a shit load of money investing in an enormous project that will undoubtably benefit it down the line. But since they won't pay a recruiter $40,000 more a year they're all of a sudden cheap? I think we all want the program to have lots more money to spend, and those days are coming, but this is not an expense that you sit everyone down and say, "we need to find a way to make this happen." This isn't Sean Miller contemplating leaving for Arizona here.


I'm not sure about big time talents, but according to rivals here is who he has been the lead on:

2009:

Jeff Robinson

2010:

Justin Martin

2011:

Dee Davis
Jalen Reynolds

2012:

Nobody

2013:

Nobody

2014:

Nobody

You might want to include the best player on the team and Dee Davis too.

[bleedXblue]

How about the alumni and friends stepping up their giving?

Look, Xavier has a lot of stuff going on and still has one of the lowest endowments. We can rail all we want about whether the admins are allocating enough money, but the increased money has to come from the University "family". We don't have the public support that a crap hole like SucKS does. How many more times can they raise tuition?

While this is an easy target for Father Graham haters to pontificate, all of us Xavier connected have to step up more.

I have added to my contributions- and not just to basketball.....will everybody else?

Not bragging....just fact.

While in theory this makes sense, some of us are in different stages of our lives and cant fork out any more than we already do. Im a season ticket holder and give an annual donation as well. They wont be getting any more from me until I can get the kids through college.

Bottom line is that X better start figuring this thing out pretty quickly.

Basketball is the CASH COW. 40K seems like a huge disparity when X and Villanova are very comperable in status.

[Smails]

Never trust a man with the first name Ashley

[Juice]

The first two definitely are. I'm not sure about Sumner.

He was.

[xudash]

While in theory this makes sense, some of us are in different stages of our lives and cant fork out any more than we already do. Im a season ticket holder and give an annual donation as well. They wont be getting any more from me until I can get the kids through college.

Bottom line is that X better start figuring this thing out pretty quickly.

Basketball is the CASH COW. 40K seems like a huge disparity when X and Villanova are very comperable in status.

Again, you have to figure in the COLA in this case.

Assuming a nice round number of $100k for an existing salary in Cincinnati, in order to maintain a comparable standard of living in Philadelphia you would need to make:

Comparable salary in Philadelphia, PA: $133,976

Price difference in Philadelphia, PA:

o Groceries - 20% more
o Housing - 78% more
o Utilities - 31% more
o Transportation - 12% more
o Health Care - 4% more

Now look at the housing differential. Nova is in Radnor, which is on the Mainline. I don't know where Ashley lives in Cincinnati, but, assuming he wants to live close to work, he'll feel the full brunt of that 78% if he wants to relocate to that area.

Does the $40k raise bring him home on a fully adjusted basis? No, because that would appear to be the gross number of the raise. Unless he could negotiate or did negotiate a tax true-up, assuming a 25% bracket for rough number purposes, it would appear as though he'll be underwater by almost $4k.

Apparently, close enough for him to take the job for his reasons.

[MHettel]

Look, Mack can now hire a new assitant. If he's looking to hire a guy that can serve in a recruiting role, then I'm sure we'll benefit from the recruits that come along with the new recruiter just as must as we might be harmed by losing our current recruiter.

its a 2 way street,

[DoubleD86]

Not sure if someone brought this up, but it is important to remember that Ashley Howard was the #3 assistant at Xavier. If he is still the #3 assistant at Villanova, it is a lateral move (position wise) with an increase in pay and moving back home. If he is the #2 at Villanova, it is a promotion plus the other two.

The other thing to remember, as was pointed out by someone else on a different board, is that it's not a matter of paying $40K more for Howard. If you bump Howard you have to bump the other two making it a $100K - $120K investment.

[DC Muskie]

Not sure if someone brought this up, but it is important to remember that Ashley Howard was the #3 assistant at Xavier. If he is still the #3 assistant at Villanova, it is a lateral move (position wise) with an increase in pay and moving back home. If he is the #2 at Villanova, it is a promotion plus the other two.

What's the difference between a number 2 and number 3 assistant?

[GoMuskies]

What's the difference between a number 2 and number 3 assistant?

Apparently $40,000

[DC Muskie]

Is there any difference in responsibility? Do they have that on their business cards?

Ashley Howard
#2 Assistant Coach
Villanova University

[DC Muskie]

Again, you have to figure in the COLA in this case.

Assuming a nice round number of $100k for an existing salary in Cincinnati, in order to maintain a comparable standard of living in Philadelphia you would need to make:

Comparable salary in Philadelphia, PA: $133,976

Price difference in Philadelphia, PA:

o Groceries - 20% more
o Housing - 78% more
o Utilities - 31% more
o Transportation - 12% more
o Health Care - 4% more

Now look at the housing differential. Nova is in Radnor, which is on the Mainline. I don't know where Ashley lives in Cincinnati, but, assuming he wants to live close to work, he'll feel the full brunt of that 78% if he wants to relocate to that area.

Does the $40k raise bring him home on a fully adjusted basis? No, because that would appear to be the gross number of the raise. Unless he could negotiate or did negotiate a tax true-up, assuming a 25% bracket for rough number purposes, it would appear as though he'll be underwater by almost $4k.

Apparently, close enough for him to take the job for his reasons.

Don;t forget when you moved to Philly you immediately have the urge to beat your wife or girlfriend. So you must thrown in jail time and hospital costs as all. Add another 50% when the Eagles don't win the Super Bowl, which is every year.

[SixFig]

Say Howard were to leave 3 years from now. Who is to say Swift wouldn't transfer then?

Point being, if players are gonna follow coaches, its gonna happen no matter what. Even Duke can't keep their assistants every year.

[XUFan09]

Say Howard were to leave 3 years from now. Who is to say Swift wouldn't transfer then?

I don't think that happens too often. With a head coach leaving, yes, but not as much with an assistant.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

[PMI]

Don;t forget when you moved to Philly you immediately have the urge to beat your wife or girlfriend. So you must thrown in jail time and hospital costs as all. Add another 50% when the Eagles don't win the Super Bowl, which is every year.

If it weren't for those delicious cheesesteaks I honestly believe we have sold the place by now.

[Masterofreality]

Sounds like you're taking shots at the kid if he decides to decommit. Why? "Opportunistic" makes him sound like he's just waiting to cash in on the next big opportunity. Maybe his bond with Howard is stronger than his bond with Mack/X. Maybe he sees Howard, the lead recruiter of his services for X, going to Villanova - a team with a little more success, in a bigger market, in the same conference - and he chooses to follow him. How does that tell us what Swift is all about?

Plus you had to throw the "circle of advisors" in there, as if the only way X doesn't land a kid is because someone is polluting his mind and turning him into a selfish, "opportunistic" jackass. Why can't it just be as simple as Xavier is no longer the fit for him? Hopefully he sticks with X, but we shouldn't be ripping this kid if he doesn't.

Melvin Swift has family in Philadelphia. That is how Ashley Howard knew about him.

If Melvin decides that he wants to play in front of some family members, and 'Nova has a scholly available, he's gone. We'll see.

As opposed to the Dez scenario, if we are losing recruits because the institution is not committed enough to pay Big East calibre salaries, then THAT would piss me off....because that is totally on the school.

Let's see where our new Athletic Director's priorities are...and his power.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I am sure it's for a myriad of reasons...money, his hierarchy position, possibly that Mack is young and could have told these guys that he has no plans to go anywhere. I honestly think this was a major reason why Kelsey left. I think he wants to coach XU and we already have an alumnus coaching already. I think you are going to see Mack and Co. getting a pay raise in the coming years commensurate with coaching in the Big East. I think our recruiting is going to improve with our new conference exposure. I think Xavier is going to be just fine going forward.

[xudash]

I am sure it's for a myriad of reasons...money, his hierarchy position, possibly that Mack is young and could have told these guys that he has no plans to go anywhere. I honestly think this was a major reason why Kelsey left. I think he wants to coach XU and we already have an alumnus coaching already. I think you are going to see Mack and Co. getting a pay raise in the coming years commensurate with coaching in the Big East. I think our recruiting is going to improve with our new conference exposure. I think Xavier is going to be just fine going forward.

+1

[gladdenguy]

Swift is gone. Time to move on. Mack gets screwed again because this University is run by a bunch of cheap a$$ boners.

One good season and Mack should have no trouble finding another program.

[XURunner85]

Did I miss something...was there an announcement that Swift has de-committed his verbal to X???? Or is Gladdenguy already going doom and gloom because an assistant left to go to another school??? I would assume recruits and players read this stuff and see something like this and it makes them think what they were not thinking in the first place....so shut up!!!

[Muskie]

Swift is gone. Time to move on. Mack gets screwed again because this University is run by a bunch of cheap a$$ boners.

One good season and Mack should have no trouble finding another program.

Didn't you advocate not donating money to the school last season?

[XU2011]

Didn't you advocate not donating money to the school last season?

Much like our wonderful federal government, Xavier doesn't have a revenue problem. It has a serious spending problem. I've had the opportunity to witness a lot of this firsthand in various circumstances. It really is amazing. 3 new full Vice President's in the past year or so (can't imagine how many new Associate or Asst VP's).... Graham's Cabinet getting bigger every single year... throwing $250k+ at John Kucia to do what exactly?? Oversee Athletics and HR which both already have their own directors/associate VP's...

[Madfan]

When a decision that a man makes doesn't make sense, look for the woman involved.

I heard from a very credible source that he has a 85 year old grandmother that he would like to be there for.

[kyxu]

Much like our wonderful federal government, Xavier doesn't have a revenue problem.

Whatever the problem, Xavier's endowment is obscenely low for a school of its quality. It is lower than Butler's, which has a smaller enrollment than XU, and UD's endowment is about 3-4 times that of Xavier.

[xu95]

Swift is gone. Time to move on. Mack gets screwed again because this University is run by a bunch of cheap a$$ boners.

One good season and Mack should have no trouble finding another program.

Hopefully you can find another program too.

[SpectorJersey]

So go after Gladden guy for stating the obvious? Swift committed to X without ever visiting bc he had a relationship with Ashley Howard. He isnt coming to X.

[Smails]

Didn't you advocate not donating money to the school last season?

+1 Tool box can't even get out of his own way.

[Masterofreality]

Didn't you advocate not donating money to the school last season?

BOOM!

Public Reps as Stalin of the Web has me in Stalag.

[Muskie]

Much like our wonderful federal government, Xavier doesn't have a revenue problem. It has a serious spending problem. I've had the opportunity to witness a lot of this firsthand in various circumstances. It really is amazing. 3 new full Vice President's in the past year or so (can't imagine how many new Associate or Asst VP's).... Graham's Cabinet getting bigger every single year... throwing $250k+ at John Kucia to do what exactly?? Oversee Athletics and HR which both already have their own directors/associate VP's...

Every Administration has staff that the general public thinks is excessive or not worth their paycheck. Having been at X during the reign of Father Hoff, I can tell you that he too employed people who students/alum thought were under qualified and over paid. It's not just this Administration. What I've decided in retrospect is that I probably didn't have a good grasp of what those people were supposed to be doing so I just assumed they did nothing.

[DC Muskie]

Every Administration has staff that the general public thinks is excessive or not worth their paycheck. Having been at X during the reign of Father Hoff, I can tell you that he too employed people who students/alum thought were under qualified and over paid. It's not just this Administration. What I've decided in retrospect is that I probably didn't have a good grasp of what those people were supposed to be doing so I just assumed they did nothing.

When I was there people complained they didn't see Hoff on campus enough. He was out doing his job...raising money. But there were plenty of kids who wanted to see him as they walked to biology class or something.

[Masterofreality]

When I was there people complained they didn't see Hoff on campus enough. He was out doing his job...raising money. But there were plenty of kids who wanted to see him as they walked to biology class or something.

And his legacy is "Top Jimmy".

Never forget....

[Muskie]

When I was there people complained they didn't see Hoff on campus enough. He was out doing his job...raising money. But there were plenty of kids who wanted to see him as they walked to biology class or something.

Very true.

[drudy23]

Never though I'd see a 10 page thread about an assistant leaving? Is this really that big of a deal?

[GoMuskies]

When I was there people complained they didn't see Hoff on campus enough. He was out doing his job...raising money. But there were plenty of kids who wanted to see him as they walked to biology class or something.

I don't recall ever seeing Fr. Hoff on campus. I'm not sure I even knew who was the president. I certainly wouldn't have recognized him. Why should I have given a shit at that point anyway? He wasn't teaching any of my classes, cooking any of my meals, or playing in any of my pick-up basketball games, so he was pretty well irrelevant to me. I'm surprised there were college kids who really cared what the president was up to.

[DC Muskie]

I'm surprised there were college kids who really cared what the president was up to.

Believe me, I was surprised as well.

[blueblob06]

How are we saying "Swift is gone" right now?

He committed to Xavier, not to Ashely Howard. Is there a chance he goes to Nova instead of X now that the lead recruiter for him left? Yes. But it is not for sure.

Go to Swift's twitter page. Above his picture on his page, it says "XAVIER MUSKETEERS". Also, (and yes these are tweets before Howard left), he re-tweets stuff like:
JEC ‏@cj2539 6 May @ThatBoySwift that boy Melvin Sweet will be eating large at Cintas in 2 years. #XavierNation
Retweeted by Melvin Swift

JEC ‏@cj2539 12 May @TF_32 Congrats and welcome to Xavier Sir Edmond....can't wait for you to run the show....great 2014 class with @ThatBoySwift #XavierNation
Retweeted by Melvin Swift

Relax people. Hoping he's still gonna be a Muskie. But if not, we'll be fine.

[Muskie]

Never though I'd see a 10 page thread about an assistant leaving? Is this really that big of a deal?
It's a little bit of pessimism, a little bit of bitterness over last season, mixed with some unknown about the future. This my friend is a recipe for 10 plus pages.

To prove my point, I will now post a thread (http://www.xavierhoops.com/showthread.php?25325-Justin-Doellman&p=395339#post395339) about Justin Doellman thriving in Europe. It will get two pages.

[paulxu]

Never though I'd see a 10 page thread about an assistant leaving? Is this really that big of a deal?

Let me help you a little with your angst. Adjust your settings and all these posts will fit on 3 pages.

[DC Muskie]

How are we saying "Swift is gone" right now?

He committed to Xavier, not to Ashely Howard. Is there a chance he goes to Nova instead of X now that the lead recruiter for him left? Yes. But it is not for sure.

Go to Swift's twitter page. Above his picture on his page, it says "XAVIER MUSKETEERS". Also, (and yes these are tweets before Howard left), he re-tweets stuff like:
JEC ‏@cj2539 6 May @ThatBoySwift that boy Melvin Sweet will be eating large at Cintas in 2 years. #XavierNation
Retweeted by Melvin Swift

JEC ‏@cj2539 12 May @TF_32 Congrats and welcome to Xavier Sir Edmond....can't wait for you to run the show....great 2014 class with @ThatBoySwift #XavierNation
Retweeted by Melvin Swift

Relax people. Hoping he's still gonna be a Muskie. But if not, we'll be fine.

All of those tweets were before his recruiter left.

[paulxu]

Well, he's busy re-tweeting stuff from an X supporter named Jeff Riley to stay with Xavier.

[danaandvictory]

Well, he's busy re-tweeting stuff from an X supporter named Jeff Riley to stay with Xavier.

I will never understand the mentality that leads fans to tweet recruits, especially since it is probably a secondary violation (if rarely punished or regulated).

[nuts4xu]

Never though I'd see a 10 page thread about an assistant leaving? Is this really that big of a deal?

Simply put, no it's not that big of a deal. It can be, and some have made it into a bigger deal than it is....but in the grand scheme of things, I don't see it being a big deal at all.

[bleedXblue]

Simply put, no it's not that big of a deal. It can be, and some have made it into a bigger deal than it is....but in the grand scheme of things, I don't see it being a big deal at all.

I think most are more concerned with the trend. I think we've lost 3 assistants the last 3 years.

Two left to become assistants elsewhere and one left under a cloud of suspicion.

[XU2011]

Every Administration has staff that the general public thinks is excessive or not worth their paycheck. Having been at X during the reign of Father Hoff, I can tell you that he too employed people who students/alum thought were under qualified and over paid. It's not just this Administration. What I've decided in retrospect is that I probably didn't have a good grasp of what those people were supposed to be doing so I just assumed they did nothing.

In my world and for a lot of other people in the corporate world, organizations over the past several years have been doing more with less. Higher education has chosen to go in the other direction and do less with more. Xavier's growth (in enrollment) has stalled and is actually trending negative, and in some areas of the University, at a pretty quick pace. Yet, X adds 3 new VP's.

I think it is 2013 or 14 where universities and colleges in this country, on average, will employ 2 administrators/staff members for every 1 faculty member. It's no secret why the cost of a college education is spiraling out of control and not sustainable.

[XU2011]

I think most are more concerned with the trend. I think we've lost 3 assistants the last 3 years.

Two left to become assistants elsewhere and one left under a cloud of suspicion.

Actually 4 in the last 3 years (Kelsey, Rasheen Davis, Kareem Richardson and Ashley Howard).

[DC Muskie]

Xavier's growth (in enrollment) has stalled and is actually trending negative, and in some areas of the University, at a pretty quick pace. Yet, X adds 3 new VP's.

Please, please, please...for the love of everything holy, stop bringing up our enrollment. Please.

Bitch about all you want regarding the number of VP's. Hell even brag about your corporate experience, which I can tell you working with many corporations that they too are very flat, with many VP's, but it is a legit observation.

But just stop with the enrollment thing and trying to pass it off as something you know something about. I'm tired of correcting you on it.

[bleedXblue]

Actually 4 in the last 3 years (Kelsey, Rasheen Davis, Kareem Richardson and Ashley Howard).

Great oppty for Mack to add some experience to the bench. He could use some help with in game situations/coaching IMHO

[XU2011]

He could use some help with in game situations/coaching IMHO

Agreed.

[Xman95]

Simply put, no it's not that big of a deal. It can be, and some have made it into a bigger deal than it is....but in the grand scheme of things, I don't see it being a big deal at all.

If you take this as an isolated incident then you're 100% correct. However - and I think this is where most of the concern comes from - we've seen a trend with this and it's starting to get ridiculous. We can't keep losing assistants every year. Just like teams need 3- and 4-year players, they also need coaches to stick around. That stability and consistency is important. Hopefully this is the end of the run for the "Assistant Coach ???" is leaving theme.

[nuts4xu]

But just stop with the enrollment thing and trying to pass it off as something you know something about. I'm tired of correcting you on it.

Is our enrollment trending up right now? I was under the impression we began to trend downward, but I honestly have no idea.

Serious question, and really just looking for a knowledgeable opinion on the subject.

[XU2011]

Please, please, please...for the love of everything holy, stop bringing up our enrollment. Please.

But just stop with the enrollment thing and trying to pass it off as something you know something about. I'm tired of correcting you on it.

If you can correct this, have at it. 2 of Xavier's biggest competitiors are Miami and Dayton. Their enrollments are not declining at the rate Xavier's is. In fact, Dayton is continuing to enroll record class after record class after record class. (And at much larger numbers to begin with on top of it).

That's not even taking into consideration that X's retentions rates are plummeting faster than our enrollment setbacks.

[DC Muskie]

If you can correct this, have at it. 2 of Xavier's biggest competitiors are Miami and Dayton. Their enrollments are not declining at the rate Xavier's is. In fact, Dayton is continuing to enroll record class after record class after record class. (And at much larger numbers to begin with on top of it).

That's not even taking into consideration that X's retentions rates are plummeting faster than our enrollment setbacks.

Wrong. On all accounts. It's amazing how wrong you are.

Seriously, get some new material.

[nuts4xu]

I Hopefully this is the end of the run for the "Assistant Coach ???" is leaving theme.

Me too. I know things are different now, but over the course of the past 30 years we have done a very good job retaining coaches. I view this as short term situation, and not a long lasting trend.

We also went through a period where we had a great deal of player turnover....due to some player transfers and parting ways with others. We averages at least one player transfer a year for a while there. This current off season has so far given us zero transfers out of the program.

As a whole college basketball is set up for more player transfers and assistant coaches to job jump looking for their next step up the ladder. But I think Coach Mack will solidify his core of coaches this season, and we will end up with some great guys who stay longer than 12 months at a time.

[DC Muskie]

Is our enrollment trending up right now? I was under the impression we began to trend downward, but I honestly have no idea.

Serious question, and really just looking for a knowledgeable opinion on the subject.

Enrollments throughout the state have flatlined the past three to four years.

The state of Ohio has fewer high school graduates.

Our recent graduate friend who hates John Kuica will tell you something about how our enrollment from Ohio is not that big of deal, but he would be again wrong. UC's enrollment has stalled as well.

Also we had more applications for the class of 2016 then we did for the class of 2015. If we were having enrollment issues, it would seem we'd be happy to pack more students into the school.

[XU2011]

Enrollments throughout the state have flatlined the past three to four years.

The state of Ohio has fewer high school graduates.

Our recent graduate friend who hates John Kuica will tell you something about how our enrollment from Ohio is not that big of deal, but he would be again wrong. UC's enrollment has stalled as well.

Also we had more applications for the class of 2016 then we did for the class of 2015. If we were having enrollment issues, it would seem we'd be happy to pack more students into the school.

We also get half of our students from outside of Ohio, I believe.

Dayton and Miami's have not regressed at our level... Dayton's actually continues to grow.

I don't "hate" John Kucia. Just believe paying him $250k to oversee HR and Athletics is redundant when X has 2 director's/assoc VP's to do that. (As in we should probably be paying our AD more than $225k.... we are in the Big East).

I didn't realize applications generated tuition revenue for the school. Glad applications are up... I wish kids actually choosing to enroll (or stay) at X would go up as well.

[XU2011]

Great oppty for Mack to add some experience to the bench. He could use some help with in game situations/coaching IMHO

X can't afford/isn't willing to pay experience assistants. Probably will bring in a young, connected coach for recruiting which isn't a bad thing... as long as we can make it worth his while to stay for 4 or 5 years to build some recruiting stability.

[DC Muskie]

We also get half of our students from outside of Ohio, I believe.

Dayton and Miami's have not regressed at our level... Dayton's actually continues to grow.

I don't "hate" John Kucia. Just believe paying him $250k to oversee HR and Athletics is redundant when X has 2 director's/assoc VP's to do that. (As in we should probably be paying our AD more than $225k.... we are in the Big East).

I didn't realize applications generated tuition revenue for the school. Glad applications are up... I wish kids actually choosing to enroll (or stay) at X would go up as well.

Dayton and Miami are different types of schools that offer different things. Dayton was a huge draw out on the east coast for decades. Now those kids are headed to southern schools like Wake. Dayton has been able to fill those gaps. We do as well.

What Dayton and Miami do with their enrollment is not a reflection either way towards what Xavier is doing. Loyola in Baltimore changed the entire process of how they recruit students. They hired a Xavier person do implement those changes. Their enrollment has changed in the fact they are being more selective and their applications are up, but the enrollment numbers are about the same.

Miami's grad programs are down. I'm not sure about Dayton's. Does the fact Miami's grad enrollment is down mean anything or reflect poorly on them? I don't think so. Grad programs are huge money makers for schools. I imagine Dayton makes a ton on their crappy 8th tier law school.

My point is Xavier does not have an enrollment problem.

[DC Muskie]

Also, every organization, from schools to banks, to law firms, to nonprofits...everyone has a John Kucia. A guy or gal who makes a large sum of money and people wonder why. That's not a unique situation on Victory Parkway.

[XU2011]

Dayton and Miami are different types of schools that offer different things. Dayton was a huge draw out on the east coast for decades. Now those kids are headed to southern schools like Wake. Dayton has been able to fill those gaps. We do as well.

What Dayton and Miami do with their enrollment is not a reflection either way towards what Xavier is doing. Loyola in Baltimore changed the entire process of how they recruit students. They hired a Xavier person do implement those changes. Their enrollment has changed in the fact they are being more selective and their applications are up, but the enrollment numbers are about the same.

Miami's grad programs are down. I'm not sure about Dayton's. Does the fact Miami's grad enrollment is down mean anything or reflect poorly on them? I don't think so. Grad programs are huge money makers for schools. I imagine Dayton makes a ton on their crappy 8th tier law school.

My point is Xavier does not have an enrollment problem.

Come on man. Dayton and Miami are 2 of X's biggest competitors. Yet you believe you shouldn't compare enrollments between Xavier, Dayton and Miami because they are different types of schools?? And your argument is Dayton used to be a major draw for the East Coast?

But it makes sense to rationalize Xavier's enrollment declines by saying UC's enrollment has also stalled? Like you said, Ohio has less graduating seniors. Of course, UC's enrollment will stall. They are a state school.... cheaper tuition, majoritiy of their students from OH. But yea, that comparison is a lot more valid than a Xavier vs Dayton comparison???

And lastly, and my last post on this, if you think Xavier doesn't have an enrollment problem.... you are out of touch on Victory Parkway. It's not me saying it. Xavier's administration knows it, is talking about it openly and looking for ways to reverse the trend. It's not a big secret.

[BMoreX]

Maybe I am confused with what you are trying to say, but the class of 2013 (just graduated), the class of 2014 (my class), and the class of 2016 are the largest ever at Xavier.

[XU2011]

2013 (entered in fall of '09) was the largest ever enrolled frosh class at the University. I don't know about actual graduation numbers.

[BMoreX]

2013 (entered in fall of '09) was the largest ever enrolled frosh class at the University. I don't know about actual graduation numbers.

Exactly. So what's the enrollment problem?

[xudash]

If you can correct this, have at it. 2 of Xavier's biggest competitiors are Miami and Dayton. Their enrollments are not declining at the rate Xavier's is. In fact, Dayton is continuing to enroll record class after record class after record class. (And at much larger numbers to begin with on top of it).

That's not even taking into consideration that X's retentions rates are plummeting faster than our enrollment setbacks.

Enrollment:

2011-2012 - 6650
2009-2010 - 7019
2007-2008 - 6584
2005-2006 - 6666
2003-2004 - 6668

Degrees Conferred:

2011-2012 - 1834
2009-2010 - 1778
2007-2008 - 1818
2005-2006 - 1795
2003-2004 - 1632

I know for a fact that Xavier hit its targeted number for new accepted and confirmed students for this coming year. I can't explain the drop from 9/10 to 11/12, but, considering the other recent years reflected, I don't consider the overall trend to reflect a precipitous drop. I consider 9/10 to be an anomaly.

How do you explain your plummeting retention rates when Xavier otherwise continues to increase the number of degrees conferred?

Xavier isn't in a race against Miami and Dayton for increasing enrollments year over year. There are faculty:student ratios to consider. There is the matter of adequate student housing, which Xavier itself stressed out prior to Fenwick Place coming online.

[xudash]

2013 (entered in fall of '09) was the largest ever enrolled frosh class at the University. I don't know about actual graduation numbers.

Then why are you arguing retention data?

[DC Muskie]

Seriously 2011, I'm done talking to you about enrollment issues. As you can see from the responses of others, you should stop talking about it as well.

[XU2011]

I know for a fact that Xavier hit its targeted number for new accepted and confirmed students for this coming year. .

That's good news. I hadn't heard that. I do know, though, that the target number for fall 2013 enrollment was reduced from prior years. Again, I hadn't heard anything about this fall's class, other than the target had been reduced. But it's a positive sign if we are at least hitting the target.

Again, it's not me saying this stuff. The enrollment issue is pretty openly talked about on Xavier's campus among the administration and faculty and various committees.

[MHettel]

Also, every organization, from schools to banks, to law firms, to nonprofits...everyone has a John Kucia. A guy or gal who makes a large sum of money and people wonder why. That's not a unique situation on Victory Parkway.

I hope to be that guy.

[LA Muskie]

Enrollment is not a problem. Retention is. And it is being addressed with high -- very high -- priority. Part of the reason is the economy. Part is the changing nature of the student body (more students further from home). Part is on the university itself -- it got complacent in its efforts to retain.

[RealDeal]

Again, it's not me saying this stuff. The enrollment issue is pretty openly talked about on Xavier's campus among the administration and faculty and various committees.

Citing "everyone is talking about it" as a source of information to argue a point is worthless. Get a source of info or don't post your opinion and claim it's a fact.

[BandAid]

All we need to do is think of how enrollment/retention starts with the letter "g"...

[bleedXblue]

Im sure the MBA program has been struggling to attract and retain students due to the lagging economy the last 4-5 years. No idea what % of total student body that is......

[BBC 08]

Forget it, XU2011, you're out of your element.

[mistabeecee41]

back to the topic at hand...

Swift re-tweeted 3 tweets from an X fan selling him on staying despite Howard leaving. Guess that can be considered a good sign?

[DC Muskie]

back to the topic at hand...

Swift re-tweeted 3 tweets from an X fan selling him on staying despite Howard leaving. Guess that can be considered a good sign?

That's pretty good I's say.

[Retire33]

Hopefully you can find another program too.

Post of the week right there!

[Masterofreality]

back to the topic at hand...

Swift re-tweeted 3 tweets from an X fan selling him on staying despite Howard leaving. Guess that can be considered a good sign?


That's pretty good I's say.

Yeah, I'd say that is very good.

Melvin must understand that Cincinnati is much better than Philthydelphia, whether he has extended family there or not.

Also, it would be refreshing to see Ashley Howard have scruples that the Desert Racoon did not have when it came to recruits staying put.

[SM#24]

if we are losing recruits because the institution is not committed enough to pay Big East calibre salaries, then THAT would piss me off....because that is totally on the school.
Lots of good stuff in the 130+ posts, but this is why this is a big deal. I too will be pissed if we do not keep pace with Gtown, Mq & Vill as far as coach and overall program costs.

Let's say we needed to pay Howard $40,000 more and he stays, and thus we would have to give Peegs & Steele like bumps, so that's $120,000 annually. If our BE TV deal is now an extra $1.5m per year (actually more I think), I personally do not think it's unreasonable to allocate 8% of the new money to asst. coaches salaries.

[SM#24]

back to the topic at hand...

Swift re-tweeted 3 tweets from an X fan selling him on staying despite Howard leaving. Guess that can be considered a good sign?


That's pretty good I's say.
I don't think I'm being a pessimist by considering Swift gone; I'll just be happy and shocked if he remains.

[SM#24]

My basis for Ashley's scruples can only extend as to whether or not he bad mouth's Xavier. If he calls Swift (or vice versa) and states "Everything I've told you about Xavier, the basketball program and Coach Mack and why you should commit there is true, but I would love it if you would come with me to Villanova", I cannot get too upset over that nor consider it unethical in any way.

[MHettel]

Why does everyone just assume that Mack WANTED Howard to stay?

Maybe he thought he did a fair job this year and was going to give him one more year before he decides what to do with him. Myabe Mack didnt bat an eye when Howard told him he's leaving. Maybe mack looked at it as an upgrade opportunity.

I hope Swift comes to XU. But I felt the same way about Kryll Natyazkho and Kevin Parrom and the 'Spoon kid that went to OSU and never saw the court. Same with Chris Thomas, the #1 SG in his class that ended up averaging about 5PPG at a Juco this past year.

I hope we retain Swift, but if we dont them we'll have one more scholly available, and I'm sure we'll put it to work.

[XU2011]

Why does everyone just assume that Mack WANTED Howard to stay?

Maybe he thought he did a fair job this year and was going to give him one more year before he decides what to do with him. Myabe Mack didnt bat an eye when Howard told him he's leaving. Maybe mack looked at it as an upgrade opportunity.



Yea, the guy who brought in Melvin Swift in his 8 months at Cintas.... sounds like a guy Mack was trying to decide how to let go...

[MHettel]

Yea, the guy who brought in Melvin Swift in his 8 months at Cintas.... sounds like a guy Mack was trying to decide how to let go...

So what. He's a recruiter. Thats his job. He did his job, so we must retain this guy at all costs?

Lets just face the facts. You dont really have any idea what led up to this decision, and you are painting the worst possible scenario because it gives your "anti-mack" campaign some ammo.

Except it doesnt. Because you dont really knwo anything about the circumstances.

[SM#24]

Ashley Howard, like all the coaches, was more than just a recruiter. He coached and game planned as well. He was a former D1 point guard that I'm sure had a lot to offer players beyond developing a good rapport. And yes, recruiting, just like for Pegues and Steele is #1.

We can hypothesize all we want but Mack wanted him to stay.

[Masterofreality]

Since this thread is partially about Coaches salaries, this Tweet:

@tsnmike: Memphis makes it rain for Josh Pastner: 2.65 mil a year, per my old friends at the Memphis CA.

Uh, I think CMack is a much better coach.....and he's now,making $1.8 million pet year LESS than Pastner. THAT is a crime.

[boozehound]

My basis for Ashley's scruples can only extend as to whether or not he bad mouth's Xavier. If he calls Swift (or vice versa) and states "Everything I've told you about Xavier, the basketball program and Coach Mack and why you should commit there is true, but I would love it if you would come with me to Villanova", I cannot get too upset over that nor consider it unethical in any way.

What else is he going to do? Tell the kid Xavier sucks and that he lied to him to get him to come here?

[Masterofreality]

What else is he going to do? Tell the kid Xavier sucks and that he lied to him to get him to come here?

Nah, he'll just tell him that Xavier is a Buick...but Villanova is a Lexus.:shocked2:

[MHettel]

Ashley Howard, like all the coaches, was more than just a recruiter. He coached and game planned as well. He was a former D1 point guard that I'm sure had a lot to offer players beyond developing a good rapport. And yes, recruiting, just like for Pegues and Steele is #1.

We can hypothesize all we want but Mack wanted him to stay.

Yes. Ashley Howard is exactly like all coaches. The ones we have, the ones we dont have, the ones we lost and the ones we'll have in the future.

An assistant coach just left. it happens all the time. the sky is falling.

[XU2011]

So what. He's a recruiter. Thats his job. He did his job, so we must retain this guy at all costs?

Lets just face the facts. You dont really have any idea what led up to this decision, and you are painting the worst possible scenario because it gives your "anti-mack" campaign some ammo.

Except it doesnt. Because you dont really knwo anything about the circumstances.

Uh, re-read what I was responding to.

My comment was absolutely nothing anti-Mack.

[GoMuskies]

Given that I thought this thread was about a member of our women's basketball team the first time I saw the thread pop up in my unread posts search, I've decided not to worry about it too much. Ignorance is bliss.

[LA Muskie]

Why does everyone just assume that Mack WANTED Howard to stay?

Maybe he thought he did a fair job this year and was going to give him one more year before he decides what to do with him. Myabe Mack didnt bat an eye when Howard told him he's leaving. Maybe mack looked at it as an upgrade opportunity.
No assumption here. He did. That's a period not a question mark.

[Xavier]

At least he Was only here for a year, but he did get to pick Macks mind and see how he does things before going to a same conference team. Not sure if that will make a difference but if a recruit is between X and Nova they have someone that has now been to both, slight advantage?

[XUFan09]

Latest post (http://fromstaaktomack.wordpress.com/2013/05/25/ashley-howards-departure/), pertinent to this discussion.

[GoMuskies]

Latest post (http://fromstaaktomack.wordpress.com/2013/05/25/ashley-howards-departure/), pertinent to this discussion.

Villanova on a higher level than Xavier? No.

[waggy]

Villanova on a higher level than Xavier? No.

I agree. Or at least I want to agree. X has the facilities and very very good history, but does it have the full support of the entire administration? This is a somewhat complex question, actually.

But even a X program not operating on all cylinders is equal to Nova.

[SixFig]

Melvin Swift ‏@ThatBoySwift 19m

I want to thank my family, coaches and everybody involved with me making a decision to what school I'm going to.... Xavier it is!

[waggy]

Melvin Swift ‏@ThatBoySwift 19m

I want to thank my family, coaches and everybody involved with me making a decision to what school I'm going to.... Xavier it is!

Great to hear Melvin!

[Masterofreality]

There goes Melvin swift

@ThatBoySwift: I want to thank my family, coaches and everybody involved with me making a decision to what school I'm going to.... Xavier it is!

Bally, I love ya, but, uhhhhhhh....

[paulxu]

I think this re-tweet today, from a tweet 4 months ago, was the clincher:

m.j ‏@SemajChriston 16 Jan
I love my team ...

Retweeted by Melvin Swift

[xudash]

Timing, folks. Timing.

We just made it into the Big East.

Let's allow Xavier to start cashing large TV checks and see how we roll from here.

You don't build one of the most valuable programs in the nation out of a non-BCS conference and as a private school by being bad at business.

[XUFan09]

Villanova on a higher level than Xavier? No.

Care to elaborate with an actual argument? I mean, you're a fan of Xavier, so a mere assertion is basically worth nothing.

[GoMuskies]

Care to elaborate with an actual argument? I mean, you're a fan of Xavier, so a mere assertion is basically worth nothing.

It's not really a point that requires an argument.

[XUFan09]

It's not really a point that requires an argument.

Despite Villanova's higher average rankings in recent years with advanced statistical systems like Kenpom? Despite Wright reaching a Final Four and an Elite Eight, two places Mack has never taken Xavier? Despite anything else mentioned in the post? I can actually see some points to the contrary that you're too lazy to make, but this is hardly cut and dry. I do think their respective trajectories will lead to Xavier matching Villanova and maybe even passing them as a program within the next one or two recruiting cycles, but as of this moment, that just isn't the case.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

[GoMuskies]

Villanova has been to 4 Sweet Sixteens in the last 25 years. It's not laziness. It's that some arguments really aren't worth the time.

[XUFan09]

Villanova has been to 4 Sweet Sixteens in the last 25 years. It's not laziness. It's that some arguments really aren't worth the time.

They've also been to 4 Swet Sixteens in the last 9 years, which is a far more significant span of time in judging a program. You're just using the span of time that is most convenient to you, just as some Xavier fans prefer to not go earlier than 1983 if they are talking about the historical stature of the program. Though he affected the first few years of Jay Wright's tenure, does Wright's predecessor Steve Lappas really have an effect on the program today or the positives of coaching at Villanova for Ashley Howard? No. It's just history, as is their 1985 championship. But what happened, say, five years ago is more significant, as it occurred under the same head coach.

[GoMuskies]

And Xavier has been to 4 in the last 6 years.

Villanova has a fine program. They've had some better teams than Xavier. But if their program is at a higher level than ours, we've got issues.

[XUFan09]

And Xavier has been to 4 in the last 6 years.

Villanova has a fine program. They've had some better teams than Xavier. But if their program is at a higher level than ours, we've got issues.

Two under Mack, along with another tournament appearance for him. It's a smaller sample size, four years instead of twelve, but then part of the benefit of Villanova from an assistant coach's perspective is the greater experience of the coach.

Both coaches generally take their team to the tournament, and they both have had success there. On average, Wright's regular seasons have been better than Mack's though. Mack's postseason success (and Miller's before him, to try to match the timelines) appears to be more consistent. However, Wright's postseason success has been fairly consistent itself, and a two of the years were better than anything Mack has accomplished and one year was better than anything even Miller accomplished.

[GoMuskies]

Wright being more accomplished than Mack doesn't put Villanova's program on a higher level than Xavier's.

[XUFan09]

Wright being more accomplished than Mack doesn't put Villanova's program on a higher level than Xavier's.

In terms of recent history, which is what matters most to assistant coaches, it does.

[paulxu]

Just for the heck of it, I'd say they are pretty close.
In the last 10 years, both have been to 8 tournaments. X has 5 S16...Villanova only 4.
Both have 2 E8, Villanova has one F4 out of those on a shot with 2 seconds left.
Pretty damn close.

[SM#24]

At this point in time, we are not inferior in any way to Villanova; which strengthens the argument that we need to make sure we do not lose coaches to them over something as trivial as asst. coach pay.

[GoMuskies]

Just for the heck of it, I'd say they are pretty close.
In the last 10 years, both have been to 8 tournaments. X has 5 S16...Villanova only 4.
Both have 2 E8, Villanova has one F4 out of those on a shot with 2 seconds left.
Pretty damn close.

Exactly

[LA Muskie]

Just for the heck of it, I'd say they are pretty close.
In the last 10 years, both have been to 8 tournaments. X has 5 S16...Villanova only 4.
Both have 2 E8, Villanova has one F4 out of those on a shot with 2 seconds left.
Pretty damn close.

I agree except to the extent you seem to think their FF is diminished by the fact they scored at the end of the game to advance. That's a pretty absurd notion.

[muskienick]

I agree except to the extent you seem to think their FF is diminished by the fact they scored at the end of the game to advance. That's a pretty absurd notion.

"...pretty absurd notion" is a rather harsh evaluation of Paul's take on the matter. One can disagree without rubbing the other's nose into it.

[LA Muskie]

"...pretty absurd notion" is a rather harsh evaluation of Paul's take on the matter. One can disagree without rubbing the other's nose into it.

I understand that it is a strong adjective. I intended it. It's not a personal attack on Paul. A Final Four appearance can't (or shouldn't) be belittled because the Elite 8 game was won at the buzzer. Would we accept that if we were in that position? Hell no. We should spend far less time diminishing others' accomplishments in these parts, particularly given the venom any slight on us receives.

[GoMuskies]

I don't think Paul was diminishing Nova's Final Four run. But winning one more game one time in March does not a program make. Unless one wants to claim Butler and Wichita State are better programs than Xavier. Brad Stevens is FAR more accomplished as a head coach than our Coach Mack.

[FIGHTING MUSKETEER]

If we are talking who has the better program, I don't think anyone can come up with a clear answer either way. Based on performance, facilities and personnel we are head to head with Villanova. If anything, we should know how hard it is to get to the Final Four. Now, perception is another story. I have no study or evidence that could sustain it, but I believe that on a National level Villanova is perceived as a “better” program. Unfortunately, many times perception is as important (and sometimes even more important) than reality.

[xudash]

If we are talking who has the better program, I don't think anyone can come up with a clear answer either way. Based on performance, facilities and personnel we are head to head with Villanova. If anything, we should know how hard it is to get to the Final Four. Now, perception is another story. I have no study or evidence that could sustain it, but I believe that on a National level Villanova is perceived as a “better” program. Unfortunately, many times perception is as important (and sometimes even more important) than reality.


That's because they've been in the Big East. Xavier was in the A10, as in "was" in it. Now they're both level with respect to conference affiliation.

I agree with you about the perception due to Nova's conference affiliation advantage. That ship has sailed. Now it's at least partially about the Cintas Center v. The Pavilion. I like Xavier's chances when it comes to having strong program attributes to sell.

Both programs will do well from here. And I don't see Xavier taking a backseat to anyone.

[paulxu]

Just for the heck of it again...I'm going to note that my earlier comments were offered to show how comparable the two programs have been in the last decade.
For my money, they have been very close. I in no way indicated making it to the F4 should diminish their accomplishments. The comment was to indicate how close that call was. Just like we were 3 pts shy of our first appearance.

I stand by my comments that the two programs have been close for the last decade. The proof is in the similarity of their NCAA appearances. You didn't notice me claiming our program was better because we had one more S16.

As for Jay Wright, I'll note he has had an opportunity to be a head coach for a lot longer than Chris Mack. It took Wright 4 years of his 7 at Hofstra to build a winning conference record. In his first 4 years at Villanova he went to one NCAA, his 4th year. He apparently inherited a mediocre team from Lappas, but did recruit well (including Mickey D's). Also with a scandal that cost some players.

We haven't reached the point yet where we can compare Mack's achievements to Wright's, but Mack is off to a good start in his first 4 years as a head coach at the college level.

[FIGHTING MUSKETEER]

I am not in disagreement with you Paul. In fact, I believe there is an qdditional argument in favor of us, when a coach considers moving from/to Xavier and to/from Villanova. I think that we are still a program on the rise, whereas Villanova seems to have reached a plateau. But then, we have the $$$.$$ issue.

[GuyFawkes38]

X and Vilanova are pretty similar.

I would give the slight edge to X, mainly because we have a much, much better on-campus stadium. That's a big deal. Yes, I know they play a lot of their games in Philly, but that's a pain for everyone involved.

It seems like a lot of X fans take Cintas for granted. Go to a game in The Pavilion and feel appreciative.

[LA Muskie]

I don't think Paul was diminishing Nova's Final Four run. But winning one more game one time in March does not a program make. Unless one wants to claim Butler and Wichita State are better programs than Xavier. Brad Stevens is FAR more accomplished as a head coach than our Coach Mack.

You will see that I agreed with Paul (and you) except for diminishing the value of Nova's F4 run. And yes he did try to diminish it. That's the only plausible reason for the statement that they advanced on a shot with 2 seconds left. A F4 run isn't built on a last second shot. It takes a run of 4 wins against very good competition.

[GoMuskies]

No, he was just saying that it easily could not have happened. He didn't say it was luck (see PMI and Butler). Just that it was close. By the same token, it doesn't boost us or diminish Pitt to say that our Sweet Sixteen matchup that same year was decided by a toenail. But it's true, and there's nothing wrong with pointing it out.

[LA Muskie]

No, he was just saying that it easily could not have happened. He didn't say it was luck (see PMI and Butler). Just that it was close. By the same token, it doesn't boost us or diminish Pitt to say that our Sweet Sixteen matchup that same year was decided by a toenail. But it's true, and there's nothing wrong with pointing it out.

If you say so. But I can just imagine, if the shoe was on the other foot, the vitriol we would see on this board.