Big East Sports

[Muskie]

What programs do you think X will add that some of our new conference mates have?

I know we have Club LAX for instance. Is this a sport X is willing to invest in? What are some others?

[Muskie]

He's a rough idea what everyone has:

School I LaX I Soccer I Baseball I Cross Country I Track/Field I Golf I Tennis I Swimming/Diving I Football (type) I
Marq I_X___I__X____I________I____X________I____X______I __X___I__X___I_________________I_____________I
GtownI__X__I__X____I__X_____I____X________I____X__ ____I__X___I__X___I________X________I__X (FCS)_____I
Nova I__X__I__X____I__X_____I____X________I____X______I __X___I__X___I________X________I__X (FCS)_____I
John'sI__X__I__X____I__X_____I_____________I______ _____I__X___I__X___I_________________I____________ _I
Prov I__X__I__X____I________I____X________I____X______I ______I______I________X________I_____________I
S Hall I_____I__X____I___X____I____X________I___________I ___X__I______I________X________I_____________I
D'Paul I_____I__X____I________I____X________I____X______I ___X__I__X___I_________________I_____________I
Butler I_____I__X____I___X____I____X________I____X______I ___X__I__X___I_________________I___X (FCS)____I
Creigh I_____I__X____I___X____I____X________I___________I ___X__I__X___I_________________I_____________I
Xavier I_____I__X____I___X____I____X________I____X______I ___X__I__X___I________X________I_____________I
Total I__5__I__10___I___7____I____9________I____7______I ___9__I__8___I________5________I_____3_______I

SLU I_D2_I___X____I__X___I______X_______I____________I ____I___X___I________X________I_____________I
UDay I____I___X____I__X___I______X_______I____________I __X__I__X___I_________________I____X (FCS)____I
URich I__X_I________I__X___I______X_______I_____X______I __X__I__X___I_________________I____X (FCS)____I
VCU I____I___X____I__X___I______X_______I_____X______I __X__I__X___I_________________I_______________I

[BMoreX]

I wouldn't be surprised if X adds lacrosse in a few years.

It's a growing sport, no new facilities are needed, and Title IX shouldn't interfere because you can add men's and women's.

[coasterville95]

Which, if I am reading the charts above correctly, means that we would participate in all sports (sans football) if we added LAX?

No others offered? (Field Hockey, Ice Hockey, etc?)

I don't see Volleyball or Softball on that chart, leading me to think its incomplete.

[Muskie]

I'll have to look and see if there is indeed another chart over at HLH.

[usfldan]

Which, if I am reading the charts above correctly, means that we would participate in all sports (sans football) if we added LAX?

No others offered? (Field Hockey, Ice Hockey, etc?)

I don't see Volleyball or Softball on that chart, leading me to think its incomplete.

This might be easier to read:


School LaX Soccer Baseball Cross Country Track/Field Golf Tennis Swimming/Diving Football (type)
Marq XXXX XX
GtownXXXXX XXXX (FCS)
Nova XXXXX XXXX (FCS)
John'sXXX XX
Prov XXXX X
S Hall XXX XX
D'Paul XXX XX
Butler XXXX XXX (FCS)
Creigh XXX XX
Xavier XXXX XXX
Total 510797 9853


SLU D2XXX XX
UDay XXX XXX (FCS)
URich XXXX XXX (FCS)
VCU XXXX XX

[coasterville95]

Perhaps that chart only refers to men's sports offered?

[XU '11]

I'm hoping we don't add any sports until we have more money than we know what to do with. Keeping the total number of sports offered low is what allows us to fully invest in the the olympic sports we DO have. If you look at Georgetown and Villanova, they offer just about every sport possible, but they are all under-funded and thus not successful (in general). Let's be really good at what we do have. I know some of the olympic sports still aren't fully funded in terms of full coaching staffs. If we match the upper echelon of funding (relative to our Big East foes) in all of our current olympic sports and still have money to spare, then we can talk about adding sports.

[GoMuskies]

It's too bad the Big East will not sponsor basketball. Seems like that could have been a good league.

[LA Muskie]

I'm hoping we don't add any sports until we have more money than we know what to do with. Keeping the total number of sports offered low is what allows us to fully invest in the the olympic sports we DO have. If you look at Georgetown and Villanova, they offer just about every sport possible, but they are all under-funded and thus not successful (in general). Let's be really good at what we do have. I know some of the olympic sports still aren't fully funded in terms of full coaching staffs. If we match the upper echelon of funding (relative to our Big East foes) in all of our current olympic sports and still have money to spare, then we can talk about adding sports.
In a vacuum I would agree. But in the immortal words of George Costanza, "You know we're living in a society!!!" (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxtxzF5L8VA and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usN3rpfFoGA.)

Bear in mind that schools in a conference want to compete in that conference. The Georgetowns and the Villanovas want their conference-mates to offer mostly the same sports so that every sport gets a true "conference" experience. They also want there to be a level playing field across athletic departments (or will at least argue that when it suits them). Frankly I would be very surprised if adding some sports wasn't a condition of our addition to the Big East.

[SM#24]

It's too bad the Big East will not sponsor basketball. Seems like that could have been a good league.
You mean we've been duped ?

[SM#24]

Frankly I would be very surprised if adding some sports wasn't a condition of our addition to the Big East.

Like what ? We participate in everything listed except football & lax. Lax, while growing, is still somewhat organized like hockey intercollegiately. There's not many conferences. Previously, only 7 of 16 played lax in the BE.

[XU '11]

Like what ? We participate in everything listed except football & lax. Lax, while growing, is still somewhat organized like hockey intercollegiately. There's not many conferences. Previously, only 7 of 16 played lax in the BE.

X doesn't participate in Men's Lacrosse, Women's Lacrosse, Field Hockey, Women's Rowing and Softball. All were former Big East sports.

[XU '11]

In a vacuum I would agree. But in the immortal words of George Costanza, "You know we're living in a society!!!" (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxtxzF5L8VA and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usN3rpfFoGA.)

Bear in mind that schools in a conference want to compete in that conference. The Georgetowns and the Villanovas want their conference-mates to offer mostly the same sports so that every sport gets a true "conference" experience. They also want there to be a level playing field across athletic departments (or will at least argue that when it suits them). Frankly I would be very surprised if adding some sports wasn't a condition of our addition to the Big East.

Was it a condition for Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence, and Marquette? We sponsor more sports than any of those schools. In fact, only Georgetown and Villanova sponsor more sports than us. I find it hard to believe that the whole conference will cater to those two schools.

[LA Muskie]

Like what ? We participate in everything listed except football & lax. Lax, while growing, is still somewhat organized like hockey intercollegiately. There's not many conferences. Previously, only 7 of 16 played lax in the BE.
I believe you will see the addition of some women's sports.

[LA Muskie]

Was it a condition for Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence, and Marquette?
Quite possibly yes. (Not a condition, but an expectation of sorts. And one that is probably "incentivized.")

[PMI]

In a vacuum I would agree. But in the immortal words of George Costanza, "You know we're living in a society!!!" (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxtxzF5L8VA and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usN3rpfFoGA.)

Bear in mind that schools in a conference want to compete in that conference. The Georgetowns and the Villanovas want their conference-mates to offer mostly the same sports so that every sport gets a true "conference" experience. They also want there to be a level playing field across athletic departments (or will at least argue that when it suits them). Frankly I would be very surprised if adding some sports wasn't a condition of our addition to the Big East.

But doesn't the fact that the Catholic 7 left over from the old Big East don't each have all the same sports? Georgetown, for example, has a legitimate lacrosse program. No other Big East school is currently able to attract the kind of top level lacrosse talent that Georgetown does, and a lot of the schools in the conference are in areas of the country where the competition and popularity of lacrosse is a mere fraction of what it is in the area where Georgetown is. Do you think that Georgetown cares if Xavier, Butler and Creighton add lacrosse? It's not like their former Big East foes all had lacrosse. Marquette not having baseball kind of surprises me, but don't you think they'd have it if the rest of the league wanted them to have it? I really just think the formation of the new Big East was almost solely basketball driven.

[GoMuskies]

Marquette not having baseball kind of surprises me

UW-Milwaukee has a team, but the weather in Milwaukee for the entire college baseball season is somewhere between abysmal (February, March, April) and hit or miss (May).

Case in point: UWM played its first game this year February 15th. They played their first game in the city of Milwaukee on April 24th.

[PMI]

UW-Milwaukee has a team, but the weather in Milwaukee for the entire college baseball season is somewhere between abysmal (February, March, April) and hit or miss (May).

True. The conference is full of teams from all different kinds of regions. That kind of plays into my point. Maybe that's just another reason you won't see them all have the same sports. Lacrosse is a great example because in the DC and NY regions, where a few of our teams are, lacrosse matters exponentially more than it matters basically everywhere else in the country. Even if your force Xavier or Butler or Creighton to start D1 lacrosse programs, how competitive are they really going to be given where they are? Georgetown's lacrosse competition is Maryland, Hopkins, UMBC, Loyola, etc. It's a pipe dream to think that they're going to get the rest of the Big East to commit to lacrosse the way they do.

[LA Muskie]

But doesn't the fact that the Catholic 7 left over from the old Big East don't each have all the same sports? Georgetown, for example, has a legitimate lacrosse program. No other Big East school is currently able to attract the kind of top level lacrosse talent that Georgetown does, and a lot of the schools in the conference are in areas of the country where the competition and popularity of lacrosse is a mere fraction of what it is in the area where Georgetown is. Do you think that Georgetown cares if Xavier, Butler and Creighton add lacrosse? It's not like their former Big East foes all had lacrosse. Marquette not having baseball kind of surprises me, but don't you think they'd have it if the rest of the league wanted them to have it? I really just think the formation of the new Big East was almost solely basketball driven.
I think Men's LAX is a bad example because there are high barriers to entry (and it is a nightmare from a Title IX perspective given team size). It's more likely hockey where, aside from a few select conferences, the game is really played in the OOC. On the XU side of the ledger, like I said before I'd expect to see the growth on the women's side. And I think the top 2 candidates would be softball and field hockey (in that order).

[PMI]

I think Men's LAX is a bad example because there are high barriers to entry (and it is a nightmare from a Title IX perspective given team size). It's more likely hockey where, aside from a few select conferences, the game is really played in the OOC. On the XU side of the ledger, like I said before I'd expect to see the growth on the women's side. And I think the top 2 candidates would be softball and field hockey (in that order).

Does Title IX require a school to have the same number, or roughly the same number, of male and female athletes, or is it just equal number of programs for each? I would have to imagine that any school adding men's lacrosse would add women's lacrosse too. Many of the schools that have good men's lacrosse tend to have good women's lacrosse too, and the popularity of lacrosse in pre-college athletes in the certain regions I was referring to applies to both girls and boys.

[paulxu]

Well, we've come full circle. To have a "conference" of a sport that can compete for a NCAA championship, you to have 6 members.
In the chart above, 2 sports only have 5 schools, and the easy way to get them to 6 is add Richmond and St Louis.
That would do them all except football.

[LA Muskie]

Does Title IX require a school to have the same number, or roughly the same number, of male and female athletes, or is it just equal number of programs for each? I would have to imagine that any school adding men's lacrosse would add women's lacrosse too. Many of the schools that have good men's lacrosse tend to have good women's lacrosse too, and the popularity of lacrosse in pre-college athletes in the certain regions I was referring to applies to both girls and boys.
Number of athletes, not teams. And while I'm hearing you re: lax I wouldn't expect to see men's and women's lax added. Beyond Title IX they are expensive programs to field, and like hockey the sport tends to transcend conference affiliation.

[LA Muskie]

Well, we've come full circle. To have a "conference" of a sport that can compete for a NCAA championship, you to have 6 members.
In the chart above, 2 sports only have 5 schools, and the easy way to get them to 6 is add Richmond and St Louis.
That would do them all except football.
All other things being equal, that would work. But all other things would have to be about equal. In other words, I very much doubt the Big East would solve for those problems. If another school is favored for basketball (i.e., $$$) reasons, I expect that school to be added and to see the conference solve for the non-revenue sports in alternative ways (most likely by incentivizing schools to add the necessary programs or bringing in affiliate members).

[xudash]

But doesn't the fact that the Catholic 7 left over from the old Big East don't each have all the same sports? Georgetown, for example, has a legitimate lacrosse program. No other Big East school is currently able to attract the kind of top level lacrosse talent that Georgetown does, and a lot of the schools in the conference are in areas of the country where the competition and popularity of lacrosse is a mere fraction of what it is in the area where Georgetown is. Do you think that Georgetown cares if Xavier, Butler and Creighton add lacrosse? It's not like their former Big East foes all had lacrosse. Marquette not having baseball kind of surprises me, but don't you think they'd have it if the rest of the league wanted them to have it? I really just think the formation of the new Big East was almost solely basketball driven.

I'm not arguing with you, but keep in mind that there was a time in the late 70's that no one - NOBODY - could envision a Xavier with a nationally prominent basketball program, playing its home games in one of the nicest on-campus facilities in the nation.

Things are beginning to change rather rapidly now. If those are bulldozers you're hearing in the distance, you're hearing correctly. It's a different topic/thread, but Xavier Square is about to get going. Change that was incomprehensible for this school less than a decade ago now is on the doorstep.

If Xavier wants to pursue LAX at a competitive level, it will get itself there.

[PMI]

Number of athletes, not teams. And while I'm hearing you re: lax I wouldn't expect to see men's and women's lax added. Beyond Title IX they are expensive programs to field, and like hockey the sport tends to transcend conference affiliation.

I agree with you about not expecting to see lacrosse added at Xavier. That was the example I used to make my point, which is that I'm not sure that other schools in the conference would add sports programs just because others in the conference have them. Yes, lacrosse does kind of transcend conference affiliation, because there is a small number of schools that routinely compete for a title, and then everybody else. Georgetown is kind of on the cusp of that high tier, but nobody else in the Big East is anywhere near it. As for the other sports, sure, there might be a cross country or swimming team added somewhere or another in the conference, but I think it more boils down to each school doing what works for itself.


I'm not arguing with you, but keep in mind that there was a time in the late 70's that no one - NOBODY - could envision a Xavier with a nationally prominent basketball program, playing its home games in one of the nicest on-campus facilities in the nation.

Things are beginning to change rather rapidly now. If those are bulldozers you're hearing in the distance, you're hearing correctly. It's a different topic/thread, but Xavier Square is about to get going. Change that was incomprehensible for this school less than a decade ago now is on the doorstep.

If Xavier wants to pursue LAX at a competitive level, it will get itself there.

I hear you, but I think with lacrosse, it will be more a matter of how the sport grows. I just don't see Xavier going balls out to build a legitimate lax program unless the game significantly grows outside of the regions it's big in. It's still an extremely regional game. There are exceptions like Denver University, and those douchebags at Ohio State that have developed a legit program, but for the most part, it's very regional. If Xavier were to start a lax program tomorrow with the goal of getting to the top level, it would take a very long time I would think. They would have to recruit pretty much exclusively on the east coast between New York and Virginia to build a team tainted enough to contend. High school lacrosse proves year after year that it's just a completely different level out here than anywhere else, much like our northern states for hockey. Denver is an example of a school that has gone all out with it and gotten good enough to be a top 20 or so program. Would it be worth it for Xavier to try and do that, knowing that it's pretty much the ceiling? We'll never be able to compete with the ACC and Ivy schools or the Johns Hopkins of world. I'm not saying that it is impossible to build a competitive team, but I don't know how realistic it is that they would try anytime soon.

[STL_XUfan]

Does Title IX require a school to have the same number, or roughly the same number, of male and female athletes, or is it just equal number of programs for each? I would have to imagine that any school adding men's lacrosse would add women's lacrosse too. Many of the schools that have good men's lacrosse tend to have good women's lacrosse too, and the popularity of lacrosse in pre-college athletes in the certain regions I was referring to applies to both girls and boys.

To be prong 1 compliant (and you want to be prong 1 compliant to ensure maximum flexibility in the athletic department) you need to offer athletic opportunities that are substantially proportional to your enrollment. So if Xavier is 60/40 female then our athletic opportunites should be around 60/40 female (I have no idea what our girl/guy ratio is, I just threw out an example).

[PMI]

To be prong 1 compliant (and you want to be prong 1 compliant to ensure maximum flexibility in the athletic department) you need to offer athletic opportunities that are substantially proportional to your enrollment. So if Xavier is 60/40 female then our athletic opportunites should be around 60/40 female (I have no idea what our girl/guy ratio is, I just threw out an example).

Seemed like Xavier was more like 85/15 male when I was there.

[GoMuskies]

Seemed like Xavier was more like 85/15 male when I was there.

Some of those were women. Scary, but true.

[LA Muskie]

To be prong 1 compliant (and you want to be prong 1 compliant to ensure maximum flexibility in the athletic department) you need to offer athletic opportunities that are substantially proportional to your enrollment. So if Xavier is 60/40 female then our athletic opportunites should be around 60/40 female (I have no idea what our girl/guy ratio is, I just threw out an example).

My answer was too simplistic. This is 100% accurate. XU is 53% Female : 47% Male.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[SM#24]

I believe you will see the addition of some women's sports.

Why would we add women's sports and not men's ? Wouldn't that put us out of compliance with Title IX ?
The current offerings are equal.
Right now, we have men's and women's basketball, soccer, golf, tennis, swimming, indoor & outdoor track/field, cross country; plus, baseball and women's volleyball.

Now how a team named the Musketeers does not have a fencing program is beyond me.

[paulxu]

Seemed like Xavier was more like 85/15 male when I was there.

100/0.

[Muskie]

Why would we add women's sports and not men's ? Wouldn't that put us out of compliance with Title IX ?
The current offerings are equal.
Right now, we have men's and women's basketball, soccer, golf, tennis, swimming, indoor & outdoor track/field, cross country; plus, baseball and women's volleyball.

Now how a team named the Musketeers does not have a fencing program is beyond me.

I believe there is a club team.

[SM#24]

http://www.xavier.edu/clubsports/
I don't consider having a club team as having a program. We have club everything including bass fishing and ultimate frisbee.

Not only should we have a fencing team, we should have the best program in the nation.

[Muskie]

Bass Fishing? Who knew...

[paulxu]

I don't see Beer Drinking anywhere. Who dropped that? It was a varsity team sport back when, and we were nationally ranked.

[LA Muskie]

Why would we add women's sports and not men's ? Wouldn't that put us out of compliance with Title IX ?
The current offerings are equal.
Right now, we have men's and women's basketball, soccer, golf, tennis, swimming, indoor & outdoor track/field, cross country; plus, baseball and women's volleyball.

Now how a team named the Musketeers does not have a fencing program is beyond me.

It's not based in # of teams. It's based on # of opportunities (ie roster spots) and # and overall value of scholarship opportunities.

I'm nearly certain men's baseball carries a larger roster than women's volleyball. Regardless, schools don't generally get in trouble for having too many opportunities for women under Title IX. It's essentially an affirmative action-like law and doesn't really work on reverse.

In the current landscape of college athletics, women's programs get added and men's programs get cut. You don't have to take my word for it, you should be able to find more than enough evidence of this via Google.

[GoMuskies]

The roster is bigger for baseball, but the scholarships for baseball are pretty lmited. Something like 13 total scholarships for baseball.

[El Shaqtus]

I don't see Beer Drinking anywhere. Who dropped that? It was a varsity team sport back when, and we were nationally ranked.

It's one of the fastest growing sports in the country.

[PMI]

So why did our nationally ranked rifle team get cut my freshman year? They had men and women.

[LA Muskie]

The roster is bigger for baseball, but the scholarships for baseball are pretty lmited. Something like 13 total scholarships for baseball.

That's only part of the equation. It's overall opportunities AND scholarships.

[LA Muskie]

So why did our nationally ranked rifle team get cut my freshman year? They had men and women.

I never understood the reasoning. But supposedly it was expense.

[coasterville95]

I remember that was a big controversy when Rifle got cut. Then again, I don't see it on that list of Big East sports.

Given all the political correctness and all that, I wonder if the whole 'students shooting guns at school' thing might have also done it in.

I'm not into guns, but one of the few times I actually fired a gun, was at Xavier. (Cue the scary :He had a loaded gun on a school campus panic attack). The event was some sort of festival they used to have at the Armory (and may still have it), one of the activities you could partake in was going upstairs to the Armory rifle range and trying out a ROTC style drill with a .22 rifle. (With a ROTC student at your side talking you through the drill and proper weapon handling) You just needed to pay a modest fee to cover the ear potection and the ammo. Given my score at said drill, perhaps its good I'm not into guns. :)

I had heard that in later years the risk management types didn't think that was such a great idea (there may have been beer available at said festival), and they swithced to air guns or some safe alternative.

[waggy]

I think they should bring back the rifle team. Install the members in strategic sniper nests around campus to make sure everyone is wearing their condoms.

[Muskie]

So why did our nationally ranked rifle team get cut my freshman year? They had men and women.

$$$

[PMI]

I guess money is the only thing that makes sense. Maybe now that we're going to be making more money for the athletic department, they can look into bringing it back, if that's something they're interested in. I remember a couple of kids in my class who came to Xavier to be on the rifling team who were basically shit out of luck. That must've sucked.

[xu95]

Because Dawn Rogers was stupid.

[ammtd34]

The roster is bigger for baseball, but the scholarships for baseball are pretty lmited. Something like 13 total scholarships for baseball.

Same with men's soccer. Usually 30 guys on the roster and 9.9 scholarships available (12 for women).

It's insane to me that you can't have your starting line up on scholarship when there are football players who never play a down and go to school for free. That argument is for another time.

[PMI]

Same with men's soccer. Usually 30 guys on the roster and 9.9 scholarships available (12 for women).

It's insane to me that you can't have your starting line up on scholarship when there are football players who never play a down and go to school for free. That argument is for another time.

Because people care about college football, thus it makes a ton of money.

[SM#24]

It's not based in # of teams. It's based on # of opportunities (ie roster spots) and # and overall value of scholarship opportunities.

I'm nearly certain men's baseball carries a larger roster than women's volleyball. Regardless, schools don't generally get in trouble for having too many opportunities for women under Title IX. It's essentially an affirmative action-like law and doesn't really work on reverse.

In the current landscape of college athletics, women's programs get added and men's programs get cut. You don't have to take my word for it, you should be able to find more than enough evidence of this via Google.

I realize it's not # of teams, which is why schools with football teams have more women's teams than men's; that is not our case. While I'm not sure of the specific Title IX formula for compliance, I'm of the understanding that scholarships is the primary driver (although I realize it's not as simple as that).
And while baseball does carry a larger roster than volleyball, the scholarship limits are 11.7 for baseball and 12 for volleyball.

[paulxu]

That .7 guy needs to hit the weight room. We need a full body on the roster during the playoffs.

[PMI]

That .7 guy needs to hit the weight room. We need a full body on the roster during the playoffs.

I actually thought that at first, but then I remembered we're speaking in comparison to Xavier girls.

[paulxu]

Xavier men lose in semi's.
Women advance to championship match today.

http://www.bigeast.com/sports/c-tennis/spec-rel/042614aae.html

[GoMuskies]

Pretty cool that they get to play this tournament in Flushing.

[Masterofreality]

Men's Golf Team opens play today in the Big East Tournament in South Carolina.

http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-golf/spec-rel/042614aac.html

[paulxu]

Women lost to DePaul in the tennis championship.

I'm on Kiawah. I should head down to Callawassie to see the golf. If MOR was here we'd go.

[bobbiemcgee]

X Women's Tennis won BE Championship. On to NCAA's.

[Cheesehead]

X Women's Tennis won BE Championship. On to NCAA's.

Nice!

[paulxu]

Go Muskie Ladies! First round against Kentucky. That would be a sweet win.

[bobbiemcgee]

Breanna Patz (GOLF) named BE Coach of the Year.

[XU '11]

Women's tennis is under way in Ann Arbor against Kentucky.

Live Scoring: http://www.mgoblue.com/sports/w-tennis/spec-rel/live-scoring-dual.html

[X-band '01]

They're playing Kentucky in the first round - or do you know something that the rest of us don't?

[XU '11]

They're playing Kentucky in the first round - or do you know something that the rest of us don't?

Oops. Fixed.

But, leading in 2 of the 3 doubles matches.

[GoMuskies]

Oops. Fixed.

But, leading in 2 of the 3 doubles matches.

We seem to be getting our asses handed to us. Oh, well. Cool to see another Xavier sport in the NCAA Tournament.