Who was the Better PG Between these Three Recent Stars?

[Muskie]

Happy Off-season.

Tu Holloway (2008-2012): Scored 1,833 career points, which ranks sixth on XU's all-time scoring list...dished off 550 career assists, which is third on XU's all-time list...dished off 100 or more assists and led the team in assists in three straight seasons. For more Tu stats go here (http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/holloway_tu00.html).

Drew Lavender (2006-2008): Counting his time at Oklahoma Lavender scored 1,428 points in his collegiate career (769 of those came at X). If you need a Lavender refresher or just want to reminisce ,check out his official bio (http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/lavender_drew00.html). No idea if he jumps off one foot.

Lionel Chalmers (2000-2004): Finished his career with 1,556 points and 405 Assists. Best know for his play during "The Run". More Lionel Chalmers states here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chalmli01.html).

[BandAid]

My vote really had nothing to do with stats. I voted for Drew because I enjoyed watching him the most out of the 3.

[blueblob06]

Assists vs Turnovers:
Tu - 550 vs 345
Drew - 548 vs 265

Loved seeing Drew dice up the defenses! I think if you need a true PG and you have other weapons for him to distribute to, you take Drew. If you want a pure scoring PG, you take Tu. And I loved Chalmers but he'd be behind Tu and Drew in my rankings.

[gladdenguy]

Loved Tu but Lavender was a thing of beauty and made EVERYBODY better around him when he was on the floor. He played great D as well for how small he was. Just an ideal PG or quarterback.

Lionel gave us a great run and he the most fantastic in a short period of time (which also happened to be the most important time) but I don't think he was better than either Tu or Drew based on at least a year.

[MHettel]

I dont know what the stats are, and I dont even need to see them. Tu in a landslide.

it is absolutley CRITICAL to have a primary ballhandler that can draw fouls. Tu could eliminate a guy from the game by drawing fouls, and in late game situations with the shot clock winding down, he'd always have a knack for getting to the line.

His closeout performance as a FRESHMAN during the tournament in Puerto Rico is one of the ballsiest performances I have ever seen. I think he went 29 for 30 over a 3 game stretch, including ICING some shots against Memphis who had just come off a National Championship appearance.

[DC Muskie]

I voted for Drew because I could fit him in my pocket. Nothing it better than having a point guard you can pull out of your pocket at any given time.

[BBC 08]

I dont know what the stats are, and I dont even need to see them. Tu in a landslide.

Yeah, f*** stats! Who needs an easy way to qualitatively breakdown who is better? Not us!

[Muskie]

I dont know what the stats are, and I dont even need to see them. Tu in a landslide.

it is absolutley CRITICAL to have a primary ballhandler that can draw fouls. Tu could eliminate a guy from the game by drawing fouls, and in late game situations with the shot clock winding down, he'd always have a knack for getting to the line.

His closeout performance as a FRESHMAN during the tournament in Puerto Rico is one of the ballsiest performances I have ever seen. I think he went 29 for 30 over a 3 game stretch, including ICING some shots against Memphis who had just come off a National Championship appearance.

I just keep coming back to the Lavender game against Purdue in the tourney. If I'm thinking of the right game he was clutch.

[SixFig]

I'd go with option 4...Johnny Wolf.

No, but seriously Holloway. Freshman year he was ice against Memphis. Sophomore year he put on a show with Crawford vs KState. Junior year was All American caliber. Senior year clutch in so many games including crazy play to beat ND. Big shot after big shot after big shot.

If we had 4 years of Lavender it might be a different story.

[Muskie]

Fifteen votes in and Lavender is winning with 8 votes, Tu with 4, and Lionel with 3.

[danaandvictory]

I preferred Drew's trenchant commentaries on the racial makeups of certain taverns.

[XUOWNSUC]

I'll go with Steel Balls. He's my favorite player of all-time. He was awesome in clutch time and you didn't have to worry about him making his free throws. Nobody worked harder than Tu.

[smileyy]

After thought, a slight edge to Drew Lavender over Tu. Would have loved to see Drew at Xavier for as long as he was -- I have no doubt Kelvin Sampson stunted his growth. Drew had more speed and quickness than Tu, and I think that gives him the edge in high-level games. I love Tu, so this choice was a surprise, even to me.

I don't want to open a giant can of worms here, but if you could create "Tu Lyons", with Lyons physical skills and Tu's mental makeup, you'd probably have a Player of the Year.

My real hope is that we're never asking the question again, because the answer will be "Semaj Christon, duh"

[XUOWNSUC]

More reasons why Tu was a badass (for your voting consideration):

10-10 free throw shooting in Puerto Rico Tip-Off Championship victory over Memphis

26 points (including 3 free throw shots at the end of regulation to send the game into OT) versus Kansas State in the Sweet 16

Holloway was the only player in NCAA Division I basketball to record two triple-doubles during the 2010-2011 season

2010-2011 AP, Fox Sports, and Sporting News 3rd Team All-American

2010-2011 A-10 POY

Steel Balls clutch shot over Notre Dame's Jack Cooley in 1st round of 2012 NCAA Tournament

3rd on Xavier’s all-time assist list with 550 assists

6th on XU’s all-time scoring list with 1,833 career points

Won 100 games during his Xavier career including four NCAA Tournament appearances and three Sweet 16s

Yes, Tu Holloway is a badass.

[paulxu]

After thought, a slight edge to Drew Lavender over Tu. Would have loved to see Drew at Xavier for as long as he was -- I have no doubt Kelvin Sampson stunted his growth. He had more speed and quickness than Drew, and I think that gives him the edge in high-level games. I love Tu, so this choice was a surprise, even to me.

OK, I read that paragraph 3 times and I still don't know who you favor. It starts out like Drew. Then the bolded part sounds like Tu. Then the last sentence is back to Tu(maybe)...although the first sentence favored Drew to start.


More reasons why Tu was a badass (for your voting consideration):

Is that anything like a gansta? Did you skip the reflection session?

[smileyy]

OK, I read that paragraph 3 times and I still don't know who you favor. It starts out like Drew. Then the bolded part sounds like Tu. Then the last sentence is back to Tu(maybe)...although the first sentence favored Drew to start.


Ugh. I blame rhyming names. I've edited the post to fix it. It should have said "Drew had more speed and quickness than Tu..."

[waggy]

I don't think Drew was 100% at the end of his senior year. I always kind of wondered how much better X might have been if he were 100%.

[SixFig]

I don't think Drew was 100% at the end of his senior year. I always kind of wondered how much better X might have been if he were 100%.

I remember him getting hurt during I believe the Charlotte game on the road. He lost a step after that, and the team could have maybe gotten a few more W's and who knows?

[Muskie]

I remember him getting hurt during I believe the Charlotte game on the road. He lost a step after that, and the team could have maybe gotten a few more W's and who knows?

He missed like the last 6 games of the regular season if I remember correctly.

[MHettel]

Yeah, f*** stats! Who needs an easy way to qualitatively breakdown who is better? Not us!

Then do it. Finish the argument for all of us. Bottom line is that Tu had superior numbers AND I saw with my very own eyes how much better he was. It's not like drew was chopped liver, but he played 2 years for us and one was very mediocre

[MHettel]

Here you go. One of these stat lines is Tu as a soph. The other is Drew as a senior.


G. Mpg. Ppg. Fg. 3pt. Ft. Asst. to. Bl. SPF
34 31.2 11.2 45.0 45.0 75.8 4.8 2.4 0.0 1.3

35 31.9 12.1 40.4 32.2 84.6 3.9 2.4 0.1 1.2

Beyond the stats.
Who would I take for a full season? Tu
For a single game? Tu
For a last possession? Tu
For the last shot? Tu
Taking a 3? Tu
Driving to the rim? Tu
Taking a ft? Tu
Playing defense? Tu
Taking a jump ball? Drew (tu had no hops)

[SixFig]

Here you go. One of these stat lines is Tu as a soph. The other is Drew as a senior.


G. Mpg. Ppg. Fg. 3pt. Ft. Asst. to. Bl. SPF
34 31.2 11.2 45.0 45.0 75.8 4.8 2.4 0.0 1.3

35 31.9 12.1 40.4 32.2 84.6 3.9 2.4 0.1 1.2



I agree (see previous posts) that Tu is better but individual stats can't really tell the story since the Drew Lavender teams had 5-6 players who put up around 9.5 to 12 ppg. Those teams also scored a ton of points via free throw (no assist). Drew's role was so much less involved than Tu's. Rarely did Drew even need the ball at the end of the game. Damn we were good.

Let's hope Semaj and Brandon Randolph make this a conversation between 5 Recent stars in the near future!

[smileyy]

Would you swap Drew Lavender for Tu Holloway on the 2008 team?

[GuyFawkes38]

Chalmers might go down as the most underrated player in X history. It's crazy to think that we are approaching the 10 year anniversary of "the run". No X team did more for our program than that team. What they accomplished is mind boggling. Chalmers (heh, NOT David West) led that team.

[Strange Brew]

Chalmers might go down as the most underrated player in X history. It's crazy to think that we are approaching the 10 year anniversary of "the run". No X team did more for our program than that team. What they accomplished is mind boggling. Chalmers (heh, NOT David West) led that team.

Sato didn't suck either. Even though there are some on this board who disparage his bi-pedal leaping.

Sato's supremacy:
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=244000029

[wkrq59]

TU for one giant reason, 76-53, and regardless of the bull shit at the end, it was the most enjoyable win of all the Xavier victories over UC that I've watched . Go Muskies.

:lmao::encore::crazy::lolgroup:

[DC Muskie]

No X team did more for our program than that team.

Disagree. That 1989-1990 team turned a small commuter school into a regionally ranked liberal arts college with consistent upward trending basketball program that it is today.

[GuyFawkes38]

Disagree. That 1989-1990 team turned a small commuter school into a regionally ranked liberal arts college with consistent upward trending basketball program that it is today.

Point taken. I have a short memory.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Tu because I think that he was, if not as good, only slightly worse than Drew at distributing the ball. He was a much better scorer. Tu could get to the line at will and he made the vast majority. He was one of the most clutch players Xavier has ever had (see 3 free throws at the end of Kansas State game).

I loved Lavender and I thought for a second about picking him but Tu I feel was a notch above.

[MuskiePimp23]

Tu had the best overall career, Drew played on the best overall team, but I went with Lionel because he had the best stretch a Xavier PG has ever seen and he is the only 1 of the 3 that has played in the NBA.

[Muskie]

Looks like Tu has overtaken Drew.

Question though. Without Chalmers... do we even land Tu as a recruit or Drew as a transfer?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Looks like Tu has overtaken Drew.

Question though. Without Chalmers... do we even land Tu as a recruit or Drew as a transfer?

Chalmers probably wins the "Biggest impact on the program award" of these three. But I think hes firmly in last between these three as the best PG. Chalmers drove fans crazy for the majoprity of his career including the first half on the Run year. Chalmers had one of, if not the best, second half senior years in XU history.

[DC Muskie]

Looks like Tu has overtaken Drew.

Question though. Without Chalmers... do we even land Tu as a recruit or Drew as a transfer?

Yes.

[Olsingledigit]

Yes.

Agree definite yes

[PMI]

Looks like Tu has overtaken Drew.

Question though. Without Chalmers... do we even land Tu as a recruit or Drew as a transfer?

I guess there's really no way of knowing what would've happened without Chalmers. That's why time travel is so dangerous.