Is Xavier broke?

[OTRMUSKIE]

EXCLUSIVE: Big changes on the syllabus at Xavier
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130305/NEWS0102/303060062


EXCLUSIVE: Big changes on the syllabus at Xavier
By Cliff Peale
Mar 6, 2013 12:38 AM
0 Comments

The Enquirer/Taylor Norton
Xavier University plans a $100 million capital campaign, which would include plans to demolish Alter Hall, the largest instruction building on campus. It is too old to be renovated.
Seeking to reshape an increasingly uncertain academic and financial future, Xavier University will try everything from a capital campaign of as much as $140 million to a new College of Innovation and Entrepreneurship.

There also could be a new pledge from Xavier to students: "To develop their values and character, deliver an excellent education, and guarantee placement in their career or next educational step."

Draft plans circulating around the Evanston campus this week show that XU's board and top administrators are serious when they talk about doing things differently.

"The business model across higher education is not sustainable," said Scott Chadwick, Xavier's provost, or top academic officer. "That requires us to figure out how to help students learn differently at lower cost."

XU will run an operating deficit of about $5 million this year. It discounts freshman tuition by 47.5 percent to keep itself affordable, and can't afford any further tuition breaks.

It also has built up debt of close to $200 million rebuilding its campus during the last five years and needs to spend about $12 million a year to maintain and renovate existing buildings.

"We have a good foundation," said Beth Amyot, XU's chief financial officer. "Even thought it's not an emergency, we do need to have a sense of urgency."

"I think we need to make choices that we haven't had to make before."

Universities across the country are struggling with similar financial woes, and the plans are Xavier's attempt to chart its own future before students and families start abandoning it for less expensive options.

Those changes are particularly difficult on college campuses, said Kate Fenner, a consultant at Downtown-based Compass Higher Education.

"There's a whole culture that's based on a respect for how we've always done things," Fenner said. "It's very difficult when you want to push change in a culture like that."

Groups of students and employees will discuss the plans at open forums this month, including one today. Xavier hopes to polish off a final version this spring.

It appears inevitable that the final plan will include:

* A new fundraising campaign. Having completed a $206 million campaign in 2011, Xavier will probably start another campaign to raise $100 million for the endowment - most for scholarships - and $40 million for new buildings, according to the plans.

* A new austerity. A pool for employee merit raises would not be tapped until January 2014, and any new employees would probably be funded by eliminating existing jobs.

The plans predict a raft of cost-cutting measures without identifying any specifics. Chadwick and Amyot said no specific academic programs have been targeted so far for closure.

"We recognize that while ideas for programs of all sorts are unlimited, our resources are not," the financial plan said. "In defining certain strategies for investment, other programs may be scaled back, eliminated or not started."

Alter Hall, Xavier's main classroom building, will have to be renovated using internal funds. Xavier has said for several years that Alter will need to be renovated or razed and replaced.

* More students. With about 7,000 students now, Xavier has recruited two of its biggest-ever classes during the last four years, but new growth won't come from bigger freshman classes, Chadwick said.

Instead, XU hopes to double the number of veterans enrolled to about 300, recruit more students from such markets as Atlanta, Kansas City and Minneapolis, and increase both international students and transfer students.

* A bigger campus. The financial plan says Xavier will try to finance a new Allied Health Professions building, probably just east of the Williams College of Business along Dana Avenue, and a new recreation center, probably located in the new multiuse development closer to Montgomery Road. The current rec center is off Victory Parkway, on the west side of campus.

* A new learning model. The new College of Innovation and Entrepreneurship could be "a safe space to test ideas, to play with ideas and to bring new things to the market," Chadwick said.

It's unlikely that current academic departments would be moved into the new college, but they could use it as a laboratory, he said.

* A promise to students. The pledge idea is a bold one in academic circles, but Chadwick said it's the same concept as a car dealer offering a warranty with a new car.

"You see it in every other industry," he said. "We know the process. We will pledge to hold up our end of that process and give them that learning and developmental environment."

Xavier student body president Seth Walsh, a senior from Michigan, gives the university credit for trying.

"I'm not sure anyone really knows what the times are in terms of academics anymore," Walsh said. "Every generation learns in a different way. I think the fact they're taking proactive steps will keep them as close to current as any college can be."

I write about higher education and the University of Cincinnati Health system and all their impacts in our region. Email me: cpeale@enquirer.com

0 Comments

[Masterofreality]

Not broke, but this year has been a more challenging one.

The "debt" of $200 million noted in the article is not accurrate. The new fundraiser is to increase the endowment and, hopefully, get a rec center on the north side of campus.

The school can always use more money, though. I'm going to a meeting on the 18th.

[boozehound]

That article was definitely a little concerning. The good news is that it sounds like Xavier is trying to be proactive.

College costs too much money right now. This is particularly true of Private schools, including Xavier. Universities have to find a way to deliver better value for students. $40K per year is way too much for school.

[Masterofreality]

That article was definitely a little concerning. The good news is that it sounds like Xavier is trying to be proactive.

College costs too much money right now. This is particularly true of Private schools, including Xavier. Universities have to find a way to deliver better value for students. $40K per year is way too much for school.

Schools like the dump, Loyola Chicago and Marquette cost more. Boston College, Georgetown and George Washington are off the hook.

[Caveat]

Xavier isn't broke, but they're starting to recognize that the current "college model" in the United States -- where 18 year old kids go deeply into debt by borrowing tons of government-guaranteed, non-bankruptcy dischargable money -- is going to come to a halt in the very near future. Colleges are going to need to change the way they do business, and those that aren't prepared for a new reality are going to be get hit with a very serious wake-up call.

If Xavier wants to remain competitive long-term, they need to change a few things that this article addresses:

1.) Increasing the endowment. Xavier's endowment is currently around $120m, and that's just not going to cut it in a future where schools will need to compete on price for students. If you have to be competitive with tuition, a strong endowment is the only way to guarantee funding levels.

2.) Increasing the enrollment. Put economies of scale to work and increase the number of people you're serving to increase revenue. They'll also benefit from more on-campus students as well, and I'll bet the next major announcement is construction of more living space for students.

3.) Get used to austerity now. College professor salaries are already bloated and unsustainable, and the entire industry should get used to the idea that pay raises aren't a guarantee no matter how qualified you are how good you are at your job.

[MCXU]

Xavier isn't broke, but they're starting to recognize that the current "college model" in the United States -- where 18 year old kids go deeply into debt by borrowing tons of government-guaranteed, non-bankruptcy dischargable money -- is going to come to a halt in the very near future. Colleges are going to need to change the way they do business, and those that aren't prepared for a new reality are going to be get hit with a very serious wake-up call.

If Xavier wants to remain competitive long-term, they need to change a few things that this article addresses:

1.) Increasing the endowment. Xavier's endowment is currently around $120m, and that's just not going to cut it in a future where schools will need to compete on price for students. If you have to be competitive with tuition, a strong endowment is the only way to guarantee funding levels.

2.) Increasing the enrollment. Put economies of scale to work and increase the number of people you're serving to increase revenue. They'll also benefit from more on-campus students as well, and I'll bet the next major announcement is construction of more living space for students.

3.) Get used to austerity now. College professor salaries are already bloated and unsustainable, and the entire industry should get used to the idea that pay raises aren't a guarantee no matter how qualified you are how good you are at your job.

Excellent post, you have summarized exactly what needs to be accomplished.

I am a little surprised that other Universities have not yet begun to address this.

As far as point number 2 goes, a successful basketball program in a great conference is an effective marketing tool for recruiting more students nationally.

[kyxu]

Xavier isn't broke, but they're starting to recognize that the current "college model" in the United States -- where 18 year old kids go deeply into debt by borrowing tons of government-guaranteed, non-bankruptcy dischargable money -- is going to come to a halt in the very near future. Colleges are going to need to change the way they do business, and those that aren't prepared for a new reality are going to be get hit with a very serious wake-up call.

If Xavier wants to remain competitive long-term, they need to change a few things that this article addresses:

1.) Increasing the endowment. Xavier's endowment is currently around $120m, and that's just not going to cut it in a future where schools will need to compete on price for students. If you have to be competitive with tuition, a strong endowment is the only way to guarantee funding levels.

2.) Increasing the enrollment. Put economies of scale to work and increase the number of people you're serving to increase revenue. They'll also benefit from more on-campus students as well, and I'll bet the next major announcement is construction of more living space for students.

3.) Get used to austerity now. College professor salaries are already bloated and unsustainable, and the entire industry should get used to the idea that pay raises aren't a guarantee no matter how qualified you are how good you are at your job.

Agreed. Good post.

Not to minimize Xavier's issue, but what it is enduring is no different from what so many other 4-year universities -- public or private -- are as well.

[Masterofreality]

Not too sure about any more dorm construction. Fenwick will be the last for a while.

Getting more students can be accomplished by the on-line and branch campus concept as well. Not as cool as a bunch of kids walking all over the grounds, but it's $$$$$.

[boozehound]

Schools like the dump, Loyola Chicago and Marquette cost more. Boston College, Georgetown and George Washington are off the hook.

I know, but just because some other (somewhat) comparable schools are charging $60K doesn't mean that $40K still isn't steep for college. Particularly for someone who is pursuing a degree in Education, Sociology, or any other field that doesn't traditionally yield high incomes.

College used to be something that only the privilaged class had widespread access to. Then we found ways to make college affordable for a wide variety of people and far more middle class kids started going to Universities. Over the last 10-15 years, due in no small part to government intervention that made student loans far too easy to get, College is getting very expensive again. At some point we are going to reach an inflection point in which more kids decide not to go to College.

I think Xavier was around $25K per year when I started undergrad in 2000. Now I believe we are up over $40K. I was very fortunate to have parents that paid for my undergrad and companies that paid for my MBA, so my personal out of pocket costs for both of my degrees was like $10K. If I hadn't had those opportunities I don't think I could have attended Xavier, or any private school.

[GoMuskies]

If you want a prime example of why college is so expensive, read xudash's thread about returning from Mecca. The "arms race" with respect to college facilities is astounding. I graduated from Xavier in 1998, and I never lived in a place, took a class in a place, or ate an on-campus meal at a place that didn't kind of suck, to tell you the truth. But I loved it all. All the new, nice facilities on campus? Incredibly expensive and unnecessary.

The problem, of course, is that everyone else is doing the same thing, so you've go to keep up with the Joneses if you're gonna recruit. But it's a killer on tuition.

[Masterofreality]

Trust me. I know all about how expensive this stuff is.

I've paid for 3 kids to get through college- one at Arizona State/Ohio U, one at Loyola Chicago and one at Xavier. All graduated from between 2003 and 2008. It's no cheaper now and neither are high schools.

Hell, St. Edward and St. Ignatius up here are more per year now than it cost me for one year for my kid to go to Arizona State- and AZ State had hot women.

[Masterofreality]

The problem, of course, is that everyone else is doing the same thing, so you've go to keep up with the Joneses if you're gonna recruit. But it's a killer on tuition.

Boston College is the worst. They were expensive as hell to begin with and they are trying to field a D1 football program in the ACC. Their costs are sky-high.

[GoMuskies]

Boston U. is slightly more expensive than Harvard and BC. Probably because it's sitting on some of the most prized real estate in Boston, and they're doing the same thing as everyone else with respect to facilities.

[Caveat]

If you want a prime example of why college is so expensive, read xudash's thread about returning from Mecca. The "arms race" with respect to college facilities is astounding. I graduated from Xavier in 1998, and I never lived in a place, took a class in a place, or ate an on-campus meal at a place that didn't kind of suck, to tell you the truth. But I loved it all. All the new, nice facilities on campus? Incredibly expensive and unnecessary.

The problem, of course, is that everyone else is doing the same thing, so you've go to keep up with the Joneses if you're gonna recruit. But it's a killer on tuition.

Yup -- and the primary driving factor behind this arms race is that colleges and universities (for the most part) do not have to compete on price with one another. Kids (and parents) assume college is going to be expensive, they assume that they'll go deeply into debt to pay for college, and any issues of cost quickly become "well, what's another X thousand dollars when you're already going to be spending a ton and being so deep in debt?" Thus, schools compete with shiny buildings, fancy rec centers, fancy dining hall / food operations, fancy dorms, etc.

That's going to change in the very near future -- either because parents start telling their kids to wise up about cost and consider lower-cost options like online education or community college (where you can work while going to school) or because Uncle Sam and the banks stop giving kids such huge sums of money.

[xudash]

Is "branding" in higher education a legitimate goal for an institution?

The more respected the degree, the more likely a job placement is achieved and at a comparatively higher salary.

Beyond graduation, the vast majority of successful business people become successful by building strong relationships and networks. Alumni networks factor into that for the very best schools.

I don't disagree with anything Xavier has done over the last two decades or is planning to do over the next 10 years. It is positioning itself to be a very strong brand, delivered through the philosophy of the Jesuits. Would I have a problem if it announced new construction for luxury condominiums for freshman in five years? Um, yes. But they aren't going to do that.

The CLC was forward thinking. They're probably still working their way through how to maximize its use, but they were thinking about new ways of learning when they designed it.

The WCB? Absolutely, positively needed if Xavier was ever going to be taken seriously as a business school. It is what it is; we needed a "Cintas" for the business school.

I applaud the leadership's willingness to tackle substantive change. I'm a little surprised with the amount of transparency concerning it. As MOR noted, the reporter is off with some of his statements.

If the days of raccoon coats and convertibles were distant before, they're becoming extinct now.

[smileyy]

Xavier isn't broke, but they're starting to recognize that the current "college model" in the United States -- where 18 year old kids go deeply into debt by borrowing tons of government-guaranteed, non-bankruptcy dischargable money -- is going to come to a halt in the very near future.

3.) Get used to austerity now. College professor salaries are already bloated and unsustainable, and the entire industry should get used to the idea that pay raises aren't a guarantee no matter how qualified you are how good you are at your job.

Totally agree with your first point. On the latter point, professors are always easy to kick, but I suspect you'll find that schools have spend tons of money on new administrative staff, and have bloated salaries there too. Not only are you paying 5 Assistant Deans of Unicorn Wrangling, but that means the Head Dean of Unicorn Wrangling thinks he's important because he has 5 Assistant Deans, so you may as well double his salary too....

[boozehound]

Yup -- and the primary driving factor behind this arms race is that colleges and universities (for the most part) do not have to compete on price with one another. Kids (and parents) assume college is going to be expensive, they assume that they'll go deeply into debt to pay for college, and any issues of cost quickly become "well, what's another X thousand dollars when you're already going to be spending a ton and being so deep in debt?" Thus, schools compete with shiny buildings, fancy rec centers, fancy dining hall / food operations, fancy dorms, etc.

That's going to change in the very near future -- either because parents start telling their kids to wise up about cost and consider lower-cost options like online education or community college (where you can work while going to school) or because Uncle Sam and the banks stop giving kids such huge sums of money.

This is right on. All of it.

We are already seeing more articles about tuition costs and alternative means of education. It used to be that you never questioned the value or cost/benefit of a college degree. Now people are asking hard questions about how much more money they are really going to make with a degree from XYZ school vs. no degree, an associate's degree, or whatever.

I have a buddy who started out as a COOP at Cincinnati State. He got placed in an entry level admin-type role in a major local company that ultimately paid for him to get his bachelor's degree from Xavier. So he ended up with a BSBA from Xavier an all he paid was 2 years of Cincinnati State tuition. He has been promoted several times since then and is doing extremely well.

Frankly I think that might be an ideal model for many people. 2 years of college, get your associates degree, then get placed with a company. Then if you want to you can go back while you work and finish school.

[smileyy]

I suspect it will be very common to start with 1-2 years at a Community College. As time goes on, I think it will be even more common for those first one or two years to be driven by a free or open-source online curriculum, with add-on costs for personalized consulting. After all, how much specialization do you need in your first 1-2 years of college?

[HuskyMuskie]

The way things are now is very, very unsustainable. I think that much can be agreed upon. That being said, I am curious to hear what the posters of XH says about the following:

Is the cost of a college education actually worth the price you pay?

Could individuals be better suited going to a community college, or simply an internship placed within a company, to be trained for the major roles they desire to work in? I struggle to believe that with grade inflation, the lack of education, lapse between jobs available, and those suited to fit those roles, all with compiling exponential education costs, that college will remain "worth it" to consumers much longer.

I am a believer that the government needs to get out. Just get out of education, and make the schools work in a capitalist environment, like everybody else. Make schools bid down the price of education, and end this "arms race" which adds to increasing tuition prices, and the associated bureaucracy associated with secondary education.

[XUFan09]

Xavier isn't broke, but they're starting to recognize that the current "college model" in the United States -- where 18 year old kids go deeply into debt by borrowing tons of government-guaranteed, non-bankruptcy dischargable money -- is going to come to a halt in the very near future. Colleges are going to need to change the way they do business, and those that aren't prepared for a new reality are going to be get hit with a very serious wake-up call.

If Xavier wants to remain competitive long-term, they need to change a few things that this article addresses:

1.) Increasing the endowment. Xavier's endowment is currently around $120m, and that's just not going to cut it in a future where schools will need to compete on price for students. If you have to be competitive with tuition, a strong endowment is the only way to guarantee funding levels.

2.) Increasing the enrollment. Put economies of scale to work and increase the number of people you're serving to increase revenue. They'll also benefit from more on-campus students as well, and I'll bet the next major announcement is construction of more living space for students.

3.) Get used to austerity now. College professor salaries are already bloated and unsustainable, and the entire industry should get used to the idea that pay raises aren't a guarantee no matter how qualified you are how good you are at your job.

Good points, but the biggest issue is what Go pointed out, the "arms race" is university facilities.

As for professor salaries, it depends. First, you have to keep in mind that Xavier boasts something like 90% of faculty as recipients of terminal degrees. Usually these are PhDs, which take the good part of a decade beyond the bachelor's to achieve. The education demanded for the degree makes it more difficult to justify a depression of wages, especially in fields where the degree is easily transferrable outside the world of education (read: competitive).

The median salary (http://chronicle.com/article/faculty-salaries-data-2012/131431#id=206622) of a full professor at Xavier is about $100,000, for an associate professor $80,000, and for an assistant professor $65,000. This is not a crazy high average when you consider the education demanded, along with the difficulty of ascending to even associate professor, let alone full professor. One should note that it's the median, not the mean, so the average avoids being overly skewed by the very high salaries of some professors. The best example is business professors, who have to be paid on a level competitive with the business world they generally choose to leave (If Xavier ever adds an engineering program, they'll deal with a similar problem). That's a lot of money.

Now, things have become a lot more expensive in just the last ten years (though it didn't start there). At Xavier, full professor salaries have risen 50% (I assume similar increases at the lower tiers). Wow, that's crazy. The thing is, tuition has more than doubled in that time, from $18,000 to $41,000, during that same time period. Professors are benefitting from the leap in tuition, but the money gained has to be disproportionately going elsewhere. The excess of administrative personnel (1:1 ratio with faculty when I graduated in 2009) and their growing salaries benefit from the tuition hike too. A lot (http://chronicle.com/article/Median-Salaries-of-Senior/126455/) of them make more money than even the average full professor and the majority of those with leadership roles make more money than associate professors.

Some things to consider:

1) I mentioned business professors making a ton of money, but the business school is probably Xavier's best long-term investment in terms of endowment.

2) Xavier professor salaries are nothing crazy (though above the median of 1,200 schools polled), but what Xavier is dealing with along with schools in general is the aging professor population. There are more and more full professors, and they do not have a retirement age. $100,000 is not a bad median salary for your highest echelon, but when your highest echelon is becoming bigger and bigger, that's an issue. It blocks the way for younger professors too.

3) An easy and problematic way to cut costs is to hire adjunct faculty. They are much, much cheaper (exploitatively cheap, considering they usually have the same degrees as other professors), but it's bad for the educational goal. There's no stability in research and student-to-faculty relationships are ephemereal, as a professor could be here one semester and gone the next. There's more to it than that, but Xavier has generally avoided hiring adjuncts for those reasons plus the hit they would take in their brand among universities.

[XUFan09]

I am a believer that the government needs to get out. Just get out of education, and make the schools work in a capitalist environment, like everybody else. Make schools bid down the price of education, and end this "arms race" which adds to increasing tuition prices, and the associated bureaucracy associated with secondary education.

I could also see that just continuing the problem. Universities, private and public, are investing in this arms race because they make disproportionately more money off of each "investment." For example, the new business school, though expensive, will make Xavier more money in the long run. That sounds pretty market-driven to me.

Now the ease of acquiring loans is another issue altogether from that, though connected to the end-problem.

[boozehound]

3) An easy and problematic way to cut costs is to hire adjunct faculty. They are much, much cheaper (exploitatively cheap, considering they usually have the same degrees as other professors), but it's bad for the educational goal. There's no stability in research and student-to-faculty relationships are ephemereal, as a professor could be here one semester and gone the next. There's more to it than that, but Xavier has generally avoided hiring adjuncts for those reasons plus the hit they would take in their brand among universities.

First of all, very interesting post. All of it.

With respect to the quoted portion: This is probably how many feel, however I found that I learned the most from my adjunct and associate professors at Xavier's MBA program. We had a guy who ran CMK for P&G teaching Marketing Research. There was an individual who worked for dunnhumby that taught a very interesting Consumer Insights course. My operations professor was a retired VP at Ingersoll Rand. In terms of the business school, those are the guys I want to learn from. I don't even care if they are not great at teaching, just the wealth of knowledge they had to share was incredible. I much preferred them to professor XXXX who has spent his whole life in academia.

I do realize that this may very well not be the case for many other areas of study though.

[drudy23]

If I'm a Finance major, you can't tell me the elective Arts Awareness brings the same value as Principles of Accounting....they shouldn't cost the same either.

Based on everyone's major, I bet you can pinpoint 3-4 classes where you can say the class impacted you...all the others just a waste of time. There's no reason to have to take all of these electives that mean diddly squat.

[BMoreX]

If I'm a Finance major, you can't tell me the elective Arts Awareness brings the same value as Principles of Accounting....they shouldn't cost the same either.

Based on everyone's major, I bet you can pinpoint 3-4 classes where you can say the class impacted you...all the others just a waste of time. There's no reason to have to take all of these electives that mean diddly squat.

Apparently Xavier's core curriculum is being reviewed to eliminate some of the classes. (I'm marketing major. I don't think I should have to take 3 philosophy and 3 theology classes. I'd much rather prefer an extra Finance class.) I hope the administration looks into cutting the current core or getting rid of a few classes and replacing them with more important ones.

[DC Muskie]

So just eliminate all courses that help shape a liberal arts education! Great idea!

[GoMuskies]

Hmm, as an Accounting and Finance major myself, I'd vote against trimming the core personally. Xavier is a liberal arts institution, not trade school. The best college courses IMO are ones that force you to read, think and write. I'm not sure you're going to get more additional value out of a Finance elective as compared to consumming some additional Plato or Thomas Merton.

[drudy23]

Hmm, as an Accounting and Finance major myself, I'd vote against trimming the core personally. Xavier is a liberal arts institution, not trade school. The best college courses IMO are ones that force you to read, think and write. I'm not sure you're going to get more additional value out of a Finance elective as compared to consumming some additional Plato or Thomas Merton.

You will if you're a Finance major.

[BMoreX]

So just eliminate all courses that help shape a liberal arts education! Great idea!

No......I never said that. I agree with both of you that a well rounded education is very beneficial.

For instance, I don't believe you need 3 philosophy, 3 sciences and 3 labs, or 3 theology. Two of each would be fine. I think replacing them with a personal finance course would be beneficial to all xavier students. I'm not sure if 2 history's (though I had ap credit so I didn't take any here) are needed.

Again, this is just what students complain about the most. They feel the core curriculum is too overbearing which doesn't allow students to take up a double major or minors.

I don't think major changes are necessary. Just a few tweaks here and there that would be more welcomed by students but also provide them an even more well rounded education.

[BMoreX]

Hmm, as an Accounting and Finance major myself, I'd vote against trimming the core personally. Xavier is a liberal arts institution, not trade school. The best college courses IMO are ones that force you to read, think and write. I'm not sure you're going to get more additional value out of a Finance elective as compared to consumming some additional Plato or Thomas Merton.

And just as an aside, I guess we'll agree to disagree. As a marketing major, I would much prefer taking two finance courses (only one is required in the business school core) then say 3 mgmt courses or 3 Econ. All are beneficial and I truly love how Xavier makes me learn in every facet of business, but I feel like all of the majors should be more equally represented in the core.

[xu95]

If I remember it was 4 and 4 when I went there. For some reason I remember taking a Philosophy class and a Theology class every year.

[GoMuskies]

You will if you're a Finance major.

I don't agree. Stretching your critical thinking skills is going to be just as important to your career as some technical knowledge that you will likely forget and need to re-learn at the time you actually have to apply them in the real world.

[DC Muskie]

How much finance do you need if you major in finance? I would think the entire scope of how it works could be completed in three courses.

[Masterofreality]

If I remember it was 4 and 4 when I went there. For some reason I remember taking a Philosophy class and a Theology class every year.

Hell, back in the Dark Ages it was 15 Semester hours of Philosophy and 15 semester hours of Theology. That's 10 courses folks and fully 1/4 of the graduation requirement of 120.

You guys got off easy. I was like Sisyphus.....rolling that rock up the hill with no payoff.

[BMoreX]

How much finance do you need if you major in finance? I would think the entire scope of how it works could be completed in three courses.

DC, not sure if this is in reference to me, but I'm a marketing major, so I'd prefer anther class there.

Again, I think this whole debate is jut based on personal opinion. As a current student, I'd prefer more business classes and less core classes. Perhaps as an alumnus of Xavier in 5, 20, or 50 years after years of real world experience, I'll see it differently.

[DC Muskie]

Trust me, after years of work experience you will see the difference between people who have a general curiosity and understanding of all educated things and those that don't.

You'll work with both. One will excel at work and be a person you grab beers with at the end of the day, the other is most likely stuck in their job and is an overall uninteresting person.

The mistake is thinking is core classes don't provide value. Centuries of evidence prove otherwise.

[XUFan09]

First of all, very interesting post. All of it.

With respect to the quoted portion: This is probably how many feel, however I found that I learned the most from my adjunct and associate professors at Xavier's MBA program. We had a guy who ran CMK for P&G teaching Marketing Research. There was an individual who worked for dunnhumby that taught a very interesting Consumer Insights course. My operations professor was a retired VP at Ingersoll Rand. In terms of the business school, those are the guys I want to learn from. I don't even care if they are not great at teaching, just the wealth of knowledge they had to share was incredible. I much preferred them to professor XXXX who has spent his whole life in academia.

I do realize that this may very well not be the case for many other areas of study though.

Especially in the business world, I could definitely see the benefit of learning from someone who is just a part-time professor but full-time outside of the university. In my psychology classes, the experience some of the professors offered as clinicians was fascinating and really gave a lot of value to the course.

I speak as someone though who found my relationships with some of my favorite professors to be important, so it was good that they were permanent faculty. I also speak as a community college professor of philosophy who had to turn down the one class the school offered me this semester because it wasn't viable. I'm really not trying to brag, but a lot of students loved my class and were significantly impacted by it (I partially attribute this not to me in particular but to the brand new perspective that the subject offers for recent high school graduates). I had a number of them express regret that I wasn't teaching the following semester, and some have been emailing me to keep in touch, now that they don't have personal access to me anymore at the school. To that end, I'm working to set up a philosophy blog, partly for my own benefit but partly so the students who still want that connection can maintain it with me through the discussion spurred by short philosophy articles. It's not the same as being able to stop by my office, but at least it's something. Yes, if you caught it, that's a blog in addition to the time-consuming Xavier blog I've been working on...because I'm a masochist.

[smileyy]

With respect to the quoted portion: This is probably how many feel, however I found that I learned the most from my adjunct and associate professors at Xavier's MBA program. We had a guy who ran CMK for P&G teaching Marketing Research. There was an individual who worked for dunnhumby that taught a very interesting Consumer Insights course. My operations professor was a retired VP at Ingersoll Rand. In terms of the business school, those are the guys I want to learn from. I don't even care if they are not great at teaching, just the wealth of knowledge they had to share was incredible. I much preferred them to professor XXXX who has spent his whole life in academia.


Do you need the right balance of both?

[Snipe]

I think that college costs to much and adds too little value.

Does the military still pay for college? How does that work? Sometimes I think just going to the military for four years and getting paid might be a better experience than racking up $160k in debt for a degree of debatable value. Of course if you had to go to Afghanistan that would suck, but you could join the Navy or Air Force and probably not sweat too much of the combat zones.

Air Traffic controllers make good money, and they retire in their 50s with benefits. Getting an air traffic controller gig in the military would be a seemless way to transition into one in the private sector when you got out, and I doubt it is all that dangerous.

Sometimes I think we tell our kids they can be anything they want, so they go to college for four years and rack up debt with no direction, and get a degree of questionable value with no technical skills. Maybe if they spent a few years in the military they would have a better idea of what they wanted to study.

I have no idea, but the herd mentality scares me. College is too expensive and I don't see the value of paying liberals $40k a year to indoctrinate my kids with their multi-cult garbage.

[HuskyMuskie]

I think that college costs to much and adds too little value.

Does the military still pay for college? How does that work? Sometimes I think just going to the military for four years and getting paid might be a better experience than racking up $160k in debt for a degree of debatable value. Of course if you had to go to Afghanistan that would suck, but you could join the Navy or Air Force and probably not sweat too much of the combat zones.

Air Traffic controllers make good money, and they retire in their 50s with benefits. Getting an air traffic controller gig in the military would be a seemless way to transition into one in the private sector when you got out, and I doubt it is all that dangerous.

Sometimes I think we tell our kids they can be anything they want, so they go to college for four years and rack up debt with no direction, and get a degree of questionable value with no technical skills. Maybe if they spent a few years in the military they would have a better idea of what they wanted to study.

I have no idea, but the herd mentality scares me. College is too expensive and I don't see the value of paying liberals $40k a year to indoctrinate my kids with their multi-cult garbage.

Extremely well put. The herd mentality is a dangerously slick slope, too. When does it all end? How?

[Pablo's Brother]

How much finance do you need if you major in finance? I would think the entire scope of how it works could be completed in three courses.

The XU Finance major is now the WCOB's largest major - and with good reason. As a Finance grad, I know the technical classes have helped me in my career. In addition, the liberal arts requirements have been a huge benefit.

IMO, there is no way three classes would suffice in this increasingly complex market environment. The "scope" is huge and cannot fit into three classes. Students need to understand capital markets, financial statements, security analysis/valuation, portfolio management, corporate finance, asset allocation, equities/bonds/options/alternatives, etc. Three classes cannot handle these subjects as they become more nuanced and detailed. Plus, the market constantly changes!

Finally, the secret to Xavier is our culture, ethics and the way XU grads handle themselves in this world long after graduation. For the most part, we do it the right way - the "Xavier Way." Does anyone disagree with me that the finance world could use a course or two about ethics? Or, the philosophy behind these desired behaviors? How religion classes can help you better understand your impact on yourself and society? It is all about sound judgment in a world that seems to lack that crucial success factor more and more.

Could it be tweaked? Sure. However, I hope we do not change our Jesuit tradition. This is what makes us unique. This is what has made our school (and our graduates) proud.

[boozehound]

I think that college costs to much and adds too little value.

Does the military still pay for college? How does that work? Sometimes I think just going to the military for four years and getting paid might be a better experience than racking up $160k in debt for a degree of debatable value. Of course if you had to go to Afghanistan that would suck, but you could join the Navy or Air Force and probably not sweat too much of the combat zones.

Air Traffic controllers make good money, and they retire in their 50s with benefits. Getting an air traffic controller gig in the military would be a seemless way to transition into one in the private sector when you got out, and I doubt it is all that dangerous.

Sometimes I think we tell our kids they can be anything they want, so they go to college for four years and rack up debt with no direction, and get a degree of questionable value with no technical skills. Maybe if they spent a few years in the military they would have a better idea of what they wanted to study.

I have no idea, but the herd mentality scares me. College is too expensive and I don't see the value of paying liberals $40k a year to indoctrinate my kids with their multi-cult garbage.

The military does still pay for college and generally requires 4 years of service in exchange if I am not mistaken. It is a great option for many kids, because they are still getting paid to serve. Honestly I think serving a 4 year stint in the Military before College would have been good for me, personally. I could have used the extra time to grow up before attending school. I probably would have taken it more seriously. There is a risk involved, but as you stated there are a variety of functions that you can do that aren't likely to place you in harm's way.

I'm not sure how I feel about the true necessity / value of a 4 year College. Honestly probably a lot of people would do just fine in business, or a varity of fields, with no college at all. Those would be the people the DC referenced as having a genuine intellectual curiosity. They are going to learn and excel because that is what they do.

Probably the biggest value I see in college right now may the the signaling effect. You show perspective employers that you are motivated able to learn by attending a College and getting decent grades. You would still have a similar ability to learn without having attended College but that isn't initially clear to perspective employers. That is even moreso for MBA degrees. While I did learn quite a bit getting my MBA, I have probably learned as much reading Businessweek for a few years.

[xudash]

OTR, with all due respect, you could not have picked a worse thread title for this thread.

If by "broke" you mean financially, then no.

If by "broken" you mean with respect to business model, then I don't think X is broken in that regard, but that it's being pro-active in recognizing the looming changes and challenges facing higher education, and that it is beginning to formulate a response to that accordingly.

I have felt for years that, while ND benefitted from the likes of Father Hessburgh, Xavier was stuck with Father Mulligan, who didn't know his arse from a hole in the ground when it came to the importance of understand the importance of fund raising. Had we had more fiscally savvy Jesuits back then, the endowment issue, which is an issue for Xavier, would not be so.

[Mel Cooley XU'81]

College of Innovation and Entrepreneurship

Fraudulent contradiction in terms.

If a kid is an innovator and/or an entrepreneur -- he should go do it.

[zanesxu]

College of Innovation and Entrepreneurship

Fraudulent contradiction in terms.

If a kid is an innovator and/or an entrepreneur -- he should go do it.

Great point here... as a grad with an Entrepreneurial Studies major, someone who started a business while at X, and someone who has sat on the Entrepreneurial Center board, the key is forcing / requiring students who want a degree from this major to actually start a business in college, not just write a business plan. If the venture fails, it will still be more rewarding than becoming really good at writing an executive summary... imho...

[Masterofreality]

Great point here... as a grad with an Entrepreneurial Studies major, someone who started a business while at X, and someone who has sat on the Entrepreneurial Center board, the key is forcing / requiring students who want a degree from this major to actually start a business in college, not just write a business plan. If the venture fails, it will still be more rewarding than becoming really good at writing an executive summary... imho...

I think a lemonade stand in front of Fenwick would be a great moneymaker.





(Easy, just kidding)

[paulxu]

A draft beer stand, with constantly rotating micro-brew products, would be a no-brainer.

[coasterville95]

So Paul is advocating putting the keg on a turntable? Ok, that's eccentric but well try it. :).

[nuts4xu]

A draft beer stand, with constantly rotating micro-brew products, would be a no-brainer.

If they could staff the beer stand with scantily clad co-eds, it would make tons of money.

http://images7.yandy.com/Products/Sexy-Beer-Girl-Costume.jpg

[Kahns Krazy]

OTR, with all due respect, you could not have picked a worse thread title for this thread.

...

Free cocaine and blowjobs would have been a worse title for the thread, because there is no information about either in here.

[Kahns Krazy]

College of Innovation and Entrepreneurship

Fraudulent contradiction in terms.

If a kid is an innovator and/or an entrepreneur -- he should go do it.


Great point here... as a grad with an Entrepreneurial Studies major, someone who started a business while at X, and someone who has sat on the Entrepreneurial Center board, the key is forcing / requiring students who want a degree from this major to actually start a business in college, not just write a business plan. If the venture fails, it will still be more rewarding than becoming really good at writing an executive summary... imho...

I disagree to some extent. The real world school of failure is available to anyone at anytime. Learning how to be more successful by understanding how others have suceeded with well thought out plans is very valuable, even to an entrepreneur. Even with that background, the opportunitiy to learn from failure is still there for the taking, but the learning from failure should be magnified, reducing the chance for repeat failure. No need to ignore the lessons others have already learned from their failures.

[American X]

"You're from a broken home, of course?"

"Yeah, it was broke. So what?"

[zanesxu]

I disagree to some extent. The real world school of failure is available to anyone at anytime. Learning how to be more successful by understanding how others have suceeded with well thought out plans is very valuable, even to an entrepreneur. Even with that background, the opportunitiy to learn from failure is still there for the taking, but the learning from failure should be magnified, reducing the chance for repeat failure. No need to ignore the lessons others have already learned from their failures.

yeah, I mean, you don't start something without proper due diligence, but starting something and planning to start something are two entirely different skill sets...

[Mel Cooley XU'81]

Learning how to be more successful by understanding how others have suceeded with well thought out plans is very valuable, even to an entrepreneur.

Absolutely agree. And I wouldn't pay a dime for my kids to learn it in a classroom.

I'd refer them to my buddy who started an excavating and dirt-hauling company in the county and now works from Florida to the Dakotas. Lots of success, failure, plans, and wisdom right there.

I don't suspect I'll have the opportunity, though.

The Cooley Kids are committed Liberal Arts types.

Good-looking, smart, charming, loving . . . expensive . . . kids!