St Louis @ Xavier: The Last A10 Home Game?

[paulxu]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5261/5624854026_e4260e7b29.jpg...VS...http://www.slu.edu/pr/images/billiken_statue_story.jpg

"SENIOR NIGHT" AT CINTAS CENTER

Xavier Musketeers (16-12, 8-6 A-10) vs. Saint Louis Billikens (23-5, 12-2 A-10)

Wednesday, March 6, 2013 at 9:00 p.m. ET

Cintas Center (10,250) in Cincinnati, Ohio

Television: Time Warner Cable SportsChannel (Ch. 1311/1311 HD in Ohio; Channel 9 in N. Ky.) with Bob McElligott and Tony White.
The game will be available via free on-line stream to fans outside Ohio on GoXavier.com. The Saint Louis TV broadcast will be shown on FOX Sports Midwest

Radio: 700 WLW-AM with Joe Sunderman (`79) and Byron Larkin (`88).

The XU broadcast is available via iHeart Radio.

Notes and Stats (http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/030413aad.html)

Live Chat (http://zippychat.com/room/yhwjv)

[paulxu]

I can't even find the old game threads. I didn't know where to put this. So it's in the Atlantic 10 forum.

I never like Fat Rick (RIP) and that mascot reminds me of him. But I got to hand it to St Louis, building an arena, hiring a successful coach, turned around a program in just a couple of years.

Do NOT understand the TV stuff. I suspect you all are glad that we may get better TV in the BE.
That said, it is on my cable here in South Carolina...so there is that.

Get some on Senior Night. Fill the place up. Let's go out of this season right.

[GoMuskies]

I think we get one last big effort out of this team for the upset win tomorrow night. The 17th and maybe last win of the year.

[JTG]

I can't even find the old game threads. I didn't know where to put this. So it's in the Atlantic 10 forum.

I never like Fat Rick (RIP) and that mascot reminds me of him. But I got to hand it to St Louis, building an arena, hiring a successful coach, turned around a program in just a couple of years.

Do NOT understand the TV stuff. I suspect you all are glad that we may get better TV in the BE.
That said, it is on my cable here in South Carolina...so there is that.

Get some on Senior Night. Fill the place up. Let's go out of this season right.

Hmm. Rick was always one of m favorites..witty, good with the media and a good coach. I can't wait for the new tv deal..I had to pay extra this year just to get some of the games.

[XUFan09]

Here's my preview (http://fromstaaktomack.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/senior-night-versus-saint-louis-university/) of the game. Man, I hope Xavier can pull this one out.

[Jesuit4Life]

Thanks for the bump. I somehow missed this before.

Stream:
http://www.goxavier.com/allaccess/?media=376912 | Information to view stream (http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/030513aaa.html)

It says that it's only accessible to people outside of Ohio, however the last time when I registered I used another zip code (90210, etc) and was able to watch the stream. Hopefully that's the same tonight for anyone signing up.

If that doesn't work for you, I might know of an alternative but I suggest following the instructions on GoXavier.com first.

[bobbiemcgee]

What will be our total A-10 home record. I know it will be 90%+ but too lazy to look it up.

[MHettel]

What will be our total A-10 home record. I know it will be 90%+ but too lazy to look it up.

I just looked it up, but I'm too lazy to tell you

[coasterville95]

On the scoreboard, they just showed the first half scores from the other a10 games, then showed th halftime scores for the Catholic 7 games. Am I reading too much into it, or is their a hint in their somewhere.

[Nocalmuskie]

is the stream working for you?

[Jesuit4Life]

is the stream working for you?

Nothing for me. Maybe the haven't switched it on yet?

[mistabeecee41]

Nothing for me. Maybe the haven't switched it on yet?

no dice for me either. just says loading.

[Jesuit4Life]

no dice for me either. just says loading.

Same here.

[BlueGuy]

Gonna suck having to listen to these St. Louis announcers. They sound like they don't know much about X.

[American X]

While streaming video not working:

http://www.iheart.com/live/1713/?autoplay=true


Live Chat (http://zippychat.com/room/yhwjv)

[BlueGuy]

I've got it on DTV ch 671.

[BlueGuy]

And.... JRob throws up a three attempt...... Ugh

[BMoreX]

Semaj with two threes so far.

[Nocalmuskie]

Stream still not working ... any suggestions?

[mistabeecee41]

stream is up.

[BlueGuy]

Stream still not working ... any suggestions?

Sports bar with DTV sports pack. Tell them ch 671. Might be your only option.

[mohr5150]

I don't mind listening to Byron and Joe.....when I'm in my car. I hate it in my living room. And I had tickets to this game but had to give them away.

[PM Thor]

http://apps.ohlulz.com/ncaa/?lulz=rtmp://cp98724.live.edgefcs.net:1935/live&id=xavier_m-baskbl@31469

Woot! Found a stream that works out of St. Louis!!

I HATE dayton.

[paulxu]

We do not seem to be playing with "senior night" intensity.

[paulxu]

When the first half of your offensive possession is Semaj dribbling around, by himself, all around the top of the key...that's for crap team basketball.

[mohr5150]

Thanks, Thor! Reps have been given!

[PM Thor]

I actually found that off of that holylandofhoops site, so I can't take credit.

I HATE dayton.

[paulxu]

hah..nice inbounds.

[mistabeecee41]

can mack please come up with a new inbounds play? that redford play hasn't gotten a shot in 10 games.

[paulxu]

The hell with this. Come on Muskies.

[XUFan09]

Shouldn't Fox Sports announcers not be rooting so hard for one team? I mean, I know these guys usually cover SLU, but still. It's just weird.

[mohr5150]

The boys are capping off the season playing their worst basketball of the year. I'm almost sorry I got the feed to watch this.

[American X]

Shouldn't Fox Sports announcers not be rooting so hard for one team? I mean, I know these guys usually cover SLU, but still. It's just weird.

I am just amazed Xavier scored 20 points against the best defense in the history of basketball.

[XUFan09]

Jeff Robinson really wants the ball on offense, but Semaj seems to be trying to beat SLU by himself.

[XUFan09]

I am just amazed Xavier scored 20 points against the best defense in the history of basketball.

Lol

[PM Thor]

Muskieman yuckin it up during the halftime interview...

I HATE dayton.

[XUFan09]

SLU's defense is the story of the first half, even though their offense has only put four more points on the board than Xavier's.

[mohr5150]

I might have to go back to listening to the game. This choppy feed is giving me a headache.

[paulxu]

Nice floppers.

[RealDeal]

Brad!

[paulxu]

hah hah! Semaj totally out of control and bailed out by a Redford 3.

GO MUSKIES. Get this one.

[PM Thor]

Please someone explain how that Stenger dunk attempt wasn't a foul, a ton of body contact, and then, if that's not a foul, how is the SLU guy wrapping BOTH arms around Stenger not an intentional foul, no less a shooting foul? That was ridiculous.

I HATE dayton.

[American X]

No, this is not right. Xavier is not allowed to score like this on the team that invented defense.

[XUFan09]

These refs are terrible on both sides. I'm really surprised Stenger didn't have a foul called on him. Not complaining though; I loved the Redford 3 that followed that chaos. Good effort by Martin recently.

[mohr5150]

I have decided that there was a pact made in the off season by all refs that Stenger is never fouled and that he always fouls within five seconds of being in the game.

[paulxu]

Our D is carrying this one so far. Last game this year at the Cintas.

Leave it all out there.

[XUFan09]

No, this is not right. Xavier is not allowed to score like this on the team that invented defense.

I gotta about, I love this mocking of the broadcasters. As an STL native, I'm embarrassed them.

[BMoreX]

Slu already in the bonus

[mohr5150]

Redford was held on that turnover, and how they didn't call a foul when Taylor had the ball is beyond me.

[mohr5150]

Taylor was fouled four times before one was called

[paulxu]

I liked that little play when Semaj was out for a moment.
Redford brings it up, to Dee, back to Redford who is doubled, jump pass to Martin, hits at cutting Stenger for an easy 2.

I'm an old man. That was nice basketball.

By the way, these announcers can bite me.

[paulxu]

Way high screen, reminds me of Frease and Tu...but Semaj doesn't hit Taylor when he rolls off the double team to the basket.

Next year he'll hit that pass....to Stainbrook I guess.

[mohr5150]

Jeff Robinson....for every solid play he has ten bad plays. Standing five feet from your man in a squatting position isn't playing good defense. I would think that by the end of your senior year you would know that.

[American X]

these announcers can bite me.

Impossible. SLU would send a second and third defender to stop that.

(And why didn't Jeff Robinson hit that shot about 500 times during his career?)

[mohr5150]

Semaj is trying really, really, really hard to lose this game for X.

[paulxu]

Shit. Can we buy a rebound? Hello?

[mohr5150]

Philmore!!!! Great pass, Semaj!

[mohr5150]

How was that not a travel? I mean, really?

[UCGRAD4X]

I'm sorry but these announcers have to be the worst I have EVER heard.

[paulxu]

CrapTrav. Call a TO on the floor.

[mohr5150]

These refs are getting paid off. That's the only explanation. How there weren't four different fouls called there is beyond me.

[Grylls]

Xavier needs a couple of confident ball handlers.

[Grylls]

McCall can't miss

[mohr5150]

Nice defense, Semaj. I really don't know what to say. Missing free throws, playing shit defense at the end of the game. It's like they don't want to win.

[UCGRAD4X]

Semaj really let that 3 go.

[paulxu]

Close this SOB out. Senior night. Do it.

[mohr5150]

Good God almighty. This team is full of pants-crappers.

[paulxu]

Bite me again announcers.

[paulxu]

42 years? Really?

[paulxu]

I'm much rather have Redford shooting fouls.

[UCGRAD4X]

Make both D

damn

[RealDeal]

F**k!

[paulxu]

what crap

[BMoreX]

Gave that away

[paulxu]

I couldn't feel worse for Redford. They just won't pass the ball to him.

[Grylls]

Davis has no clutch genes whatsoever.

[UCGRAD4X]

I can not f'in believe we are going to OT!

Make one more f'in free throw!!!

[mohr5150]

They just shit down their legs in the last three minutes of that game. I can't even keep track of the number of foul shots they missed and horrible defense they played. This is a horrible excuse for a Xavier team. Heart, toughness, and desire have been the trademark of Xavier teams, and this one doesn't have any of it.

[UCGRAD4X]

Travis got absolutely mugged on that last put back.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

Missing those all-important FTs. We just can't get that right this year. Feeling sick right now. Hope we can pull it off in OT.

[UCGRAD4X]

C'mon Semaj - both!

[BMoreX]

Every forward is beig mugged in the paint.

Dee fouls out.

[X Factor]

This is a horrible excuse for a Xavier team.

Quit watching then and go pound sand.

[UCGRAD4X]

Losing D sucks

[Grylls]

Ellis has been a flopping machine, he'd be 15k down if this were the NBA.

[UCGRAD4X]

"It's too bad Mitchell missed the layup.
He got jammed by the basket."

Oh, it's the basket's fault!

[paulxu]

You want the ball in Semaj's hands?

I want it in Redford's hands.

[mohr5150]

Semaj bailed out by the refs with that TO called before another turnover.

[mohr5150]

That's a three-point shooter fouling out. I'll take it.

[paulxu]

Have I mentioned these announcers have major league suckage?

Have I mentioned they should put the ball in Brad's hands?

[Porkopolis]

I'm probably late to the party, but good God these SLU announcers are terrible.

[UCGRAD4X]

Trav - make 'em - senior night

[mohr5150]

Bizzaro world. Redford just blocked a shot. I can't believe what I just saw.

[UCGRAD4X]

BRAD blocket a shot!

[BMoreX]

B rad with the b lock!

[PM Thor]

REDFORD WITH THE STRAIGHT UP DON"T BRING THAT ISH IN HERE BLOCK!!!

I HATE dayton.

[UCGRAD4X]

Amazing. 20 points in the 1st half

70+ total

[X Factor]

Is Trav wearing a David West jersey under his tonight? BEAST!

[UCGRAD4X]

What the F' is a bilikin anyway?

SUCK IT!

[X Factor]

Semaj with 20 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists!

[mohr5150]

Our basketball ignorance continues to show with that foul by Taylor.

[UCGRAD4X]

The A10 still goes through Xavier!

[PM Thor]

18 rebounds tonight so far for Taylor. 18. Wow.

I HATE dayton.

[paulxu]

Give me a Redford 3 to close this out.

[BMoreX]

Semaj and Taylor have had games of men.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

3 St L. players fouled out. 22 team fouls!

[paulxu]

Suck it Billikens and your homer announcers

[mohr5150]

Wow. I did not see that happening with the way the second half ended. Way to hang in there, boys. Redford and Taylor played like men tonight.

[UCGRAD4X]

Seniors rule!

[Lloyd Braun]

Longest. Overtime. Ever.

[PM Thor]

I swear, the Timeout to empty the end of the bench on senior night just is one of the best moments in all of sports. I just love it.

I HATE dayton.

[X Factor]

Wow. I did not see that happening with the way the second half ended. Way to hang in there, boys. Redford and Taylor played like men tonight.

I thought you said this was a "horrible excuse for a Xavier team?"

[BlueGuy]

9pm games that end in overtime can eat a big d!ck. With that being said, GO X!!!

[UCGRAD4X]

9 pm games that end with X beating SLU rock!

[Xman95]

That VCU game could really haunt us. An at-large seemed almost impossible at one point, but if we knock off Butler, it would give us wins against StL, Butler x2, and Memphis. A win against VCU would have really helped. Make a little noise in the A-10 Tourney and who knows? But I think that one game might be a deal breaker (assuming we can take out Butler).

Screw it, just win the A-10 Tourney and make it all moot.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

What a win ! Our seniors deserve it. They worked so hard. Semaj may get another A10 Rookie of the Week for his performance. Taylor was a beast, and Redford too..

[Xman95]

I'll tell you what, Philmore has really come along this season. Seemed to just take up space early on, but the progress he has shown has me excited to see what he can do next year.

[waggy]

Did Philmore start tonight? Anyway, our 3-5 rotation is pretty physical.

[Lloyd Braun]

Mack is a genius. How this team scored 77 points against what equates to Bill Russell's Celtics defensively is nothing short of miraculous.

[GoMuskies]

Cody Ellis just missed another shot!

If we ever have a guy go 0-15 (0-11 from 3), we should probably fire our coach on the spot. At some point when the guy hasn't even hit the rim for awhile, it's probably time to tell him to stop shooting.

What a great win.

[PM Thor]

Travis Freakin Taylor.

That is all.

I HATE dayton.

[paulxu]

Mack is a genius. How this team scored 77 points against what equates to Bill Russell's Celtics defensively is nothing short of miraculous.

Simple really. He knew I had X scoring 78 in the pick 'em contest. Course I also thought SLU could score 75...underestimated our good D.

[BMoreX]

Still can't believe the stat lines of Taylor (19 pts, 19 rebounds) and Christon (20 pts, 7 reb, 7 assts).

[ammtd34]

Still can't believe the stat lines of Taylor (19 pts, 19 rebounds) and Christon (20 pts, 7 reb, 7 assts).


You must not have heard. Semaj was trying to lose the game, likely on purpose. This team doesn't have any heart or toughness.

[RealDeal]

You must not have heard. Semaj was trying to lose the game, likely on purpose. This team doesn't have any heart or toughness.

People say stupid things. All the time.

[BlueGuy]

You must not have heard. Semaj was trying to lose the game, likely on purpose. This team doesn't have any heart or toughness.

He is a friggin stud! However, he has to clean up his FTs. Not just him, but most of the team is setting records for poor FT shooting.

[sgarcia]

While our season is probably not going to result in an NCAA bid we can take note that we beat 3 ranked teams this year which is something we don't normally do in years when we win 25 games. The whole college basketball season has been nuts. I'm just glad we won our last regular season home game so the seniors could finish on a high note.

[Fireball]

This team has plenty of good wins. It's the losses to the likes of Wake Forest, Wofford, and Dayton that will keep us out of the Tournament.

[muskiefan82]

It is important to note that the win last night also guaranteed a winning season for X at the very least.

[Masterofreality]

And, it WAS the last A10 home game.

Bye bye Rams....all 3 of ya.

[muskienick]

And, it WAS the last A10 home game.

Bye bye Rams....all 3 of ya.

I'm hoping we won't be saying our last good-byes to the VCU Rams. They would make a great addition to the Big East of 2013-2014 and beyond!

[BMoreX]

After the win, Xavier can clinch the 4 seed in the A10 tournament with a win over Butler AND Temple loses to VCU AND UMass loses one more game (to either Butler or Richmond).

Definitely doable, but the Muskies will have to show up at Hinkle.

[rove02]

After the win, Xavier can clinch the 4 seed in the A10 tournament with a win over Butler AND Temple loses to VCU AND UMass loses one more game (to either Butler or Richmond).

Definitely doable, but the Muskies will have to show up at Hinkle.

This win really made the UMass loss sting even more.

[xu95]

I'm hoping we won't be saying our last good-byes to the VCU Rams. They would make a great addition to the Big East of 2013-2014 and beyond!

We are. They have the slimmest of slim chances to get in.

[Masterofreality]

I'm hoping we won't be saying our last good-byes to the VCU Rams. They would make a great addition to the Big East of 2013-2014 and beyond!

Don't want 'em.

[PMI]

Don't want 'em.

Out of curiosity, why? They sure have a hell of a lot more appeal than SLU, dayton, Richmond, or any of the other programs being rumored.

[smileyy]

Still can't believe the stat lines of Taylor (19 pts, 19 rebounds) and Christon (20 pts, 7 reb, 7 assts).

Don't forget 6 blocks for Travis.

[paulxu]

He is a friggin stud! However, he has to clean up his FTs. Not just him, but most of the team is setting records for poor FT shooting.

And this on a night when we shot 70% from the line.
If we shot 70% all year, we would have a few more wins in our pocket.

[bigdiggins]

57% in regulation. Then lights out in OT.

[mohr5150]

People say stupid things. All the time.

And I'm sure when we had several guys miss clutch free throws at the end of regulation you were thinking everything was great. Making free throws at crunch time shows mental toughness. Several players on this team have choked on the line numerous times in crunch time, costing X wins. It almost happened again last night. That shows a lack of mental toughness. And if you think the two players I'm thinking of on this team that don't show enough heart really do show heart, then you are seeing something both myself and Coach Mack aren't seeing. It's why one of those guys hasn't played at the end of the game the past few games and another one was forced to sit out an entire game due to a lack of focus and heart. Taylor played with heart. Brad Redford played with heart. Semaj made some great plays but some really awful plays and missed several clutch free throws that could have iced the game. You are certifiably crazy if you think this team can compare in talent, desire, heart, hustle, or basketball IQ to any of the previous seven X teams, which is all I was saying last night. I still support the team with my money for tickets and my desire to see them win, but I will call it as I see it. If you don't like it, I apologize.

[Masterofreality]

Screw VCU. As soon as Shaka leaves, that program will start to drop. This is like throwing a rock in a pond- waves for a while then calm.

I don't, nor do any of the new Big East members see any staying power.... unlike Butler in Indy. VCU is a one hit wonder.

[X-band '01]

I'm sure Jeff Capel and Anthony Grant both agree. It wasn't a Shaka Smart-coached team that was featured in the famous Greg Paulus flop video back in 2007.

As a side note, I remember being in Lexington while that game was going on - lots of happy locals in the stands after the VCU-Duke final score was announced that night. I'm sure they were the same fans that were thrilled to see Thad Matta on the Rupp Arena jumbotron during the X-BYU game as well.

[PMI]

Screw VCU. As soon as Shaka leaves, that program will start to drop. This is like throwing a rock in a pond- waves for a while then calm.

I don't, nor do any of the new Big East members see any staying power.... unlike Butler in Indy. VCU is a one hit wonder.

Perhaps you missed my previous arguments about this topic, but this simply is not true. VCU is a very good program and was way before Shaka, and will be long after (not that I expect him to leave anytime soon.) It is ignorant to write them off as a one hit wonder. They have a program that is supported and has had lots of success since its inception decades ago. There is absolutely no reason to say that Butler has any more staying power than VCU. Their arena is bigger and better than Butler's ($30 million dollar arena, not the broken clock factory shithole), they have a $14 million practice facility, they are near arguably (or perhaps just certainly) the best recruiting hotbed in America, they've been averaging over 24.5 wins for years going back to three coaches ago, and they're in an east coast, untapped market. I'm not saying the league should add anyone else just to add someone else, but if they did add anyone else who'd actually be interested in coming to the Big East other than Virginia Commonwealth, than they'll have added a less deserving program. They may not fit the profile that the rest of the schools in the league do, and that's a whole other argument, but from a basketball standpoint, I'm surprised how many Xavier fans of all people have shown such ignorance of how solid and sustainable a program VCU is.

[ammtd34]

And I'm sure when we had several guys miss clutch free throws at the end of regulation you were thinking everything was great. Making free throws at crunch time shows mental toughness. Several players on this team have choked on the line numerous times in crunch time, costing X wins. It almost happened again last night. That shows a lack of mental toughness. And if you think the two players I'm thinking of on this team that don't show enough heart really do show heart, then you are seeing something both myself and Coach Mack aren't seeing. It's why one of those guys hasn't played at the end of the game the past few games and another one was forced to sit out an entire game due to a lack of focus and heart. Taylor played with heart. Brad Redford played with heart. Semaj made some great plays but some really awful plays and missed several clutch free throws that could have iced the game. You are certifiably crazy if you think this team can compare in talent, desire, heart, hustle, or basketball IQ to any of the previous seven X teams, which is all I was saying last night. I still support the team with my money for tickets and my desire to see them win, but I will call it as I see it. If you don't like it, I apologize.

How many teams would roll over and die in OT after blowing a game in regulation? I'd imagine a lot. Dominating an overtime after losing a late lead shows mental toughness to me. I don't think anyone said anything about talent, but to write them off as lacking heart is unfair and wrong.

[Masterofreality]

I didn't ignore the argument, P. I just don't accept it.

VCU does not fit this new league profile and building up wins in the CAA with past coaches isn't the same as playing with Bigger Boys. It can change quickly. George Mason and Old Dominion were thought to be rising powers too...in fact, ODU was under consideration for the A10 at one point. Look at both of them now. Coaches gone and back to oblivion.

Richmond is a much better institutional fit if they want the Richmond market. They also already have a pre-existing relationship with Villanova and GTown on the 1AA football side. Not a for sure yet that the 7 want the Richmond market, but if that is the way they decide to go, UR is the answer.

[RealDeal]

And I'm sure when we had several guys miss clutch free throws at the end of regulation you were thinking everything was great. Making free throws at crunch time shows mental toughness. Several players on this team have choked on the line numerous times in crunch time, costing X wins. It almost happened again last night. That shows a lack of mental toughness. And if you think the two players I'm thinking of on this team that don't show enough heart really do show heart, then you are seeing something both myself and Coach Mack aren't seeing. It's why one of those guys hasn't played at the end of the game the past few games and another one was forced to sit out an entire game due to a lack of focus and heart. Taylor played with heart. Brad Redford played with heart. Semaj made some great plays but some really awful plays and missed several clutch free throws that could have iced the game. You are certifiably crazy if you think this team can compare in talent, desire, heart, hustle, or basketball IQ to any of the previous seven X teams, which is all I was saying last night. I still support the team with my money for tickets and my desire to see them win, but I will call it as I see it. If you don't like it, I apologize.

Your constant bashing of a freshman during a game where he had 20 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds, and 2 steals, and the team upsets the #16 team in the country, is over the top and unwarranted. And saying he wasn't "playing with heart" is crazy, he was out there busting his ass. This team is giving the effort, and your comment of:

"This is a horrible excuse for a Xavier team. Heart, toughness, and desire have been the trademark of Xavier teams, and this one doesn't have any of it."

Is bullshit. And stupid. And coming back later and saying "You are certifiably crazy if you think this team can compare in talent, desire, heart, hustle, or basketball IQ to any of the previous seven X teams, which is all I was saying last night." doesn't change what you wrote. Again all of this while the team is upsetting the #16 team in the country. Whatever, I usually ignore the entitled fans, I will go back to that.

[Masterofreality]

Your constant bashing of a freshman during a game where he had 20 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds, and 2 steals, and the team upsets the #16 team in the country, is over the top and unwarranted. And saying he wasn't "playing with heart" is crazy, he was out there busting his ass. This team is giving the effort, and your comment of:

"This is a horrible excuse for a Xavier team. Heart, toughness, and desire have been the trademark of Xavier teams, and this one doesn't have any of it."

Is bullshit. And stupid. And coming back later and saying "You are certifiably crazy if you think this team can compare in talent, desire, heart, hustle, or basketball IQ to any of the previous seven X teams, which is all I was saying last night." doesn't change what you wrote. Again all of this while the team is upsetting the #16 team in the country. Whatever, I usually ignore the entitled fans, I will go back to that.

Yep. Sometimes our FANS need to display a little "mental toughness" during the game too.

[smileyy]

I didn't ignore the argument, P. I just don't accept it.

VCU does not fit this new league profile and building up wins in the CAA with past coaches isn't the same as playing with Bigger Boys. It can change quickly. George Mason and Old Dominion were thought to be rising powers too...in fact, ODU was under consideration for the A10 at one point. Look at both of them now. Coaches gone and back to oblivion.

Richmond is a much better institutional fit if they want the Richmond market. They also already have a pre-existing relationship with Villanova and GTown on the 1AA football side. Not a for sure yet that the 7 want the Richmond market, but if that is the way they decide to go, UR is the answer.

Wow. You really just advocated Richmond over VCU?

[DC Muskie]

I didn't ignore the argument, P. I just don't accept it.

VCU does not fit this new league profile and building up wins in the CAA with past coaches isn't the same as playing with Bigger Boys. It can change quickly. George Mason and Old Dominion were thought to be rising powers too...in fact, ODU was under consideration for the A10 at one point. Look at both of them now. Coaches gone and back to oblivion.

First off ODU fired its coach this season because he has had major issues. So their issues are not the result of a coach leaving.

George Mason is transitioning to a new coach and is still doing pretty well.

I really have to wonder the logic of taking one program VCU, and slam it based on what GMU did. I mean for crying out loud VCU could win the league this season.

The projecting of what VCU will be is downright hilarious. You have no idea what VCU will do. I on the other can show you with facts that VCU has won in every league they have been in. Every single one they have been in. I know you think it's all about Shaka, but the facts are the program is bigger than Shaka. I know this, because I can point to facts.

VCU is not a fit for other reasons. But it has NOTHING to do with the idea they are a one hit wonder.

It doesn't matter what ODU has done.
It doesn't matter what GMU has done.

It matters what VCU has done and what it is currently doing.

So now that your argument is completely destroyed, I hope you can move towards more relevant and realistic reasons as to why VCU is not a good fit and not on some random, imaginary idea you have about a program that has done very well for the past 17 years.

[waggy]

As an institutional fit, Richmond is much more like the other schools. VCU would really be an outlier.

Saint Louis will need a coach eventually - maybe Shaka can go there.

[Masterofreality]

Jeezuz.

I'm not advocating EITHER! I'm just relating what I have understood to be the preferred criteria of the new league's top men. I don't care if the league even taps the Richmond market.

Richmond hasn't exactly been pikers though with Tarrant, Beilein and now Mooney.

Screw all of 'em. Give me St. Louis, Creigton and Gonzaga and call it a night. Just no dump.

[paulxu]

I get the feeling that the joy of our inclusion in the BE could be weighed down if dayton is in the league with us.

[RoseyMuskie]

I get the feeling that the joy of our inclusion in the BE could be weighed down if dayton is in the league with us.

If Dayton is extended an invite, joining the Big East would feel like hooking up with a 10/10. If UD is left in the cold, it would be like hooking up with Kate Upton.

[PMI]

I didn't ignore the argument, P. I just don't accept it.

VCU does not fit this new league profile and building up wins in the CAA with past coaches isn't the same as playing with Bigger Boys. It can change quickly. George Mason and Old Dominion were thought to be rising powers too...in fact, ODU was under consideration for the A10 at one point. Look at both of them now. Coaches gone and back to oblivion.

Richmond is a much better institutional fit if they want the Richmond market. They also already have a pre-existing relationship with Villanova and GTown on the 1AA football side. Not a for sure yet that the 7 want the Richmond market, but if that is the way they decide to go, UR is the answer.

MOR, I'm usually right there with you on most things, but I think you're way off on this one. Again, I can buy the "institutional fit" argument, if it's that important to some people, which I know it is. If you feel that it's important to keep the league full of teams with similar kinds of schools, I can appreciate that sentiment. But none of the rest holds. You compare their staying power unfavorably to Butler's, and you use the CAA against them. Well, Butler is from the Horizon, a league that is as bad or worse than the CAA every year. Now George Mason, for example, hired a shitty coach to replace a good one, and has struggled so far, so that's fine. But VCU has had lots of good coaches, just like Xavier, and have proven to A) be bigger than one coach and B) be very diligent in replacing a good coach with another good coach should he leave. There is simply no weight to the argument that VCU would "go back to oblivion" if Shaka left, and to make that claim based simply on what conference they USED to be in is extremely weak. Why is Butler immune to this ignorance? My guess is that Xavier fans know them better, because I honestly can't think of a more reasonable excuse. I'd really love to hear a well-supported argument for why Butler is so much better and sustainable than VCU in basketball, because I promise I have a better counter-argument for pretty much every point that could be made.

As for VCU vs. Richmond, again, from an institutional fit standpoint, I don't disagree. It seems to me, looking from the outside, that that matters to the C7 schools, so it is relevant. Basketball-wise, I think Richmond is a decent program, but certainly not one I'd spend much energy fighting for to get in. I'd keep the conference at 9 if possible, of course, but basketball-wise, we will continue to see VCU remain at a consistently higher level than Richmond in the years to come, regardless of what conference they're in. What's funny is that in a few years, when VCU is dominating the A10 and dancing every year, some Xavier fans will probably look down on them for dominating in a lesser conference. MOR, I know you of all people here are not one to forget where XU came from, so that's not directed at you, but I would think more people here would have more open minds when it comes to a program like VCU. That's why I chalk it up not to bashing or hating, but simply to ignorance.

[chico]

I tend to agree with you, PMI, but I'd like to know some things like average attendance, arena size, recruiting budget, etc. to show me if they truly have a commitment to basketball or just got kind of lucky for a few years with their hires. I think I know what I'd find - that they do have a commitment - but I'm too lazy to look all that up.

[smileyy]

VCU has had far more impressive seasons than Richmond:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_Spiders_men%27s_basketball#Yearly_results
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCU_Rams_men%27s_basketball#Results_by_season

VCU is opening a $14M practice facility. Since 2000, VCU has been playing in a 7,600 seat arena that cost $42M (2013 dollars) to build.
Richmond is playing in a 9000 seat arena, that cost $66.7M (2013 dollars). It has been open since 1972, but renovated in the 2000s.

I don't know relative attendance numbers.

In comparison, Cintas Center seats 10,250, and cost $62.1M (2013 dollars), opening in 2000.

This article (http://articles.dailypress.com/2011-03-24/sports/dp-spt-chris-mooney-ur-20110324_1_chris-mooney-princeton-coach-pete-carril-young-coach) from 2011 estimated Mooney's 2011 salary at $700k
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaka_Smart) puts Shaka Smart's salary at $1.2M
I can't find recent reliable numbers for Mack's salary.

Hope these datapoints help.

From my subjective opinion, VCU's Final Four is a nice feather in their cap. From a coaching/success profile, they kind of remind me of Xavier's profile upon joining the Atlantic 10. New(ish) arena, committed to a coach but also made a successful transtition, successful tournament run with a talented team, other good tournament appearances.

[drudy23]

VCU is a good program...I'd love to have them.

[PMI]

I tend to agree with you, PMI, but I'd like to know some things like average attendance, arena size, recruiting budget, etc. to show me if they truly have a commitment to basketball or just got kind of lucky for a few years with their hires. I think I know what I'd find - that they do have a commitment - but I'm too lazy to look all that up.

Smileyy just showed you some numbers and I too am lazy and kind of busy today. I can tell you, knowing people from VCU (particularly my buddy who works in the athletic department) that they are FAR more dedicated to their basketball program than a lot of people here are giving them credit for. Just drive through Richmond and you will see billboards and ads just like you see with Xavier in Cincinnati. People certainly care about that program and have for a very long time.

Support is a funny thing too though. I mean dayton has a ton of support and it hasn't gotten them anywhere. I went to the George Mason/Georgia State game this year and there were hundreds if not over a thousand people tailgating in the freezing weather. In my wildest dreams I'd love to do that at Xavier. So I don't think you can just look at "support," but rather I think you have to look at finances, recruiting and, most importantly, on court success. People need to remember that we're joining a league with Seton Hall, Depaul, and some others who haven't had anywhere near the success of VCU in most current college student's lifetimes. How much value do those programs really bring to the table? Certainly more than the bottom feeders in the A10, but compared to the top programs in the A10? Chico, with the things you ask above, how can Butler answer them in comparison to VCU? That's really been my point the whole time. Xavier fans are so quick to recognize Butler as this great sustainable program all the while unfairly dissing VCU, and it really doesn't make sense. In fact, other than the rivals we love to hate, I'm not sure there is a program that X fans have a more warped, disrespectful view of than VCU. I mean Richmond? SLU? dayton? How can people legitimately argue (from a basketball standpoint of course) for these programs while writing VCU off as a flash in the pan? It makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever, and it's good, educated X fans who have these misconceptions, not the _LH's of the world.

[drudy23]

Smileyy just showed you some numbers and I too am lazy and kind of busy today. I can tell you, knowing people from VCU (particularly my buddy who works in the athletic department) that they are FAR more dedicated to their basketball program than a lot of people here are giving them credit for. Just drive through Richmond and you will see billboards and ads just like you see with Xavier in Cincinnati. People certainly care about that program and have for a very long time.

Support is a funny thing too though. I mean dayton has a ton of support and it hasn't gotten them anywhere. I went to the George Mason/Georgia State game this year and there were hundreds if not over a thousand people tailgating in the freezing weather. In my wildest dreams I'd love to do that at Xavier. So I don't think you can just look at "support," but rather I think you have to look at finances, recruiting and, most importantly, on court success. People need to remember that we're joining a league with Seton Hall, Depaul, and some others who haven't had anywhere near the success of VCU in most current college student's lifetimes. How much value do those programs really bring to the table? Certainly more than the bottom feeders in the A10, but compared to the top programs in the A10? Chico, with the things you ask above, how can Butler answer them in comparison to VCU? That's really been my point the whole time. Xavier fans are so quick to recognize Butler as this great sustainable program all the while unfairly dissing VCU, and it really doesn't make sense. In fact, other than the rivals we love to hate, I'm not sure there is a program that X fans have a more warped, disrespectful view of than VCU. I mean Richmond? SLU? dayton? How can people legitimately argue (from a basketball standpoint of course) for these programs while writing VCU off as a flash in the pan? It makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever, and it's good, educated X fans who have these misconceptions, not the _LH's of the world.

Tailgating at a basketball game? No thanks.

[chico]

Thanks for the info, Smileyy. I suspected they would show that VCU does what it takes to have a successful program.

I think VCU would make a fine addition to the conference. They may not fit the mold of most teams in the conference - small, private schools - but they certainly have shown that they can compete with pretty much any school. But PMI is right about perception. VCU is traditionally perceived as a school that has had recent success but it's not sustainable. From all appearances it's just the opposite. I think they average more fans than Butler (I did see this on a thread started by the idiot Swampy on another site so who knows if it's accurate or not.)

As far as the whole Butler-VCU thing, my guess is that we know more about Butler and the A-10 programs because we see them. Butler, SLU and UD are known quantities and we know that by and large (except UD) they can at least compete with us. We never had much of a reason to closely look at VCU, and since they played in a lower conference than ours, people assumed that they were a lesser school - kind of what BCS schools do to us. But by any indication they're not. They have a good sized arena that is well attended. They put money into the program. They have a history of making good hires (although the AD responsible for them is gone), they win games, and they don't seem to do things that run afoul of the NCAA.

[PMI]

Tailgating at a basketball game? No thanks.

Are you being serious? It was an awesome experience.

[PMI]

Thanks for the info, Smileyy. I suspected they would show that VCU does what it takes to have a successful program.

I think VCU would make a fine addition to the conference. They may not fit the mold of most teams in the conference - small, private schools - but they certainly have shown that they can compete with pretty much any school. But PMI is right about perception. VCU is traditionally perceived as a school that has had recent success but it's not sustainable. From all appearances it's just the opposite. I think they average more fans than Butler (I did see this on a thread started by the idiot Swampy on another site so who knows if it's accurate or not.)

As far as the whole Butler-VCU thing, my guess is that we know more about Butler and the A-10 programs because we see them. Butler, SLU and UD are known quantities and we know that by and large (except UD) they can at least compete with us. We never had much of a reason to closely look at VCU, and since they played in a lower conference than ours, people assumed that they were a lesser school - kind of what BCS schools do to us. But by any indication they're not. They have a good sized arena that is well attended. They put money into the program. They have a history of making good hires (although the AD responsible for them is gone), they win games, and they don't seem to do things that run afoul of the NCAA.

That is exactly right about them being perceived as a "lesser" program, when they are in fact not. Xavier fans, at least the ones my age and older should know better. We were long perceived as being less than what we are and still are to many who are ignorant of the facts. Yet many Xavier fans who are irritated by that show the same ignorance towards VCU. I just think more X fans should know that truth, especially since (for now) they are in our own conference.

[GoMuskies]

I like VCU and appreciate their success and fan support, but I can live without them. I think they'll be fine by staying in the A-10, too. We should give them our A-10 flagship mantle since we don't have any use for it anymore.

It will be fun watching them dominate Dayton for the next decade+.

[smileyy]

I think it is fair to say that VCU's track record is short, but has very positive signs to it. They've been able to attract quality young coaches and sustain a program through those transitions. Its not a guarantee to be successful with one coach, let alone 2 coaching changes. Sure, Capel didn't have a ton of direct success, but I'm assuming that some of Anthony Grant's success came on the foundation that Capel had laid, and likewise from Grant to Shaka Smart. And Shaka Smart has gotten a big raise and turned down high-profile jobs. Which doesn't mean he won't leave for Arizona when Sean Miller takes the Kentucky job, but I'd be shocked if there's not an assistant being groomed for a head coaching job, at either VCU or elsewhere if Smart decides to stay longer.

[SM#24]

Tailgating at a basketball game? No thanks.
Beer, food and sports anywhere is a great thing