Aleksandar/Alexander Vezenkov

[Milhouse]

The only thing that bugs me about this a bit is that it continues a trend of Mack taking commitments from guys who don't end up helping the team.

Here is a list of the guys he has signed since he took over (doesn't include transfers):

2009:

- Jeff Robinson

2010:

- Jay Canty- Transferred after his freshman year. Averaged 14 and 6 for App State last year.
- Jordan Latham- Also transferred after his freshman year. Averaged 4 and 2 for Loyolla (MD).
- Justin Martin
- Griffin McKenzie- Transferred after his sophomore year without contributing much at X

2011:

- Dee Davis
- Dez Wells- Booted from Xavier. Transferred to Maryland.
- Jalen Reynolds- Ineligible to attend Xavier and goes to prep school.

2012:

- Semaj Christon
- Myles Davis- Ineligible to join the team. Can attend class and will hopefully be eligible this year.
- Jaylen Reynolds- Ineligible again. Can attend class and will hopefully be eligible this year.
- James Farr
- Chris Cantino- Ineligible his first year and has since transferred.

2013:

- Brandon Randolph
- Kamall Richards
- Aleksander Vezenkov- Chose to sign a deal with a Greek pro team.


Based on that list he has signed 16 players from high school, prep, or juco. 9 out of the 16 have had some sort of issue that has led them to miss time or leave the program (and we don't know for sure that Reynolds, Davis, Richards, and Randolph will be good to go this year although I don't have any reason to believe they won't).

Admittedly this doesn't take into account transfers where we've done very well (Travis Taylor, Philmore, Stain, Abell, etc.). At some point though I'd feel a lot better about things if we started to get better production out of the guys we sign from high school, preps, or jucos.

So are you going to blame Mack is Semaj leaves the program after this year to pursue dreams of the NBA?

With Dez and Semaj Mack brought in recruits at a Level that Xavier hasn't seen before. I expect this trend to continue.

He's about to go into his 5th year as a head coach and still needs to figure out who exactly is going to work within his systems etc...

I couldn't be happier with the recruiting he's done and continues to do.

[casualfan]

So are you going to blame Mack is Semaj leaves the program after this year to pursue dreams of the NBA?

With Dez and Semaj Mack brought in recruits at a Level that Xavier hasn't seen before. I expect this trend to continue.

He's about to go into his 5th year as a head coach and still needs to figure out who exactly is going to work within his systems etc...

I couldn't be happier with the recruiting he's done and continues to do.

Huh? I thought my post made it pretty obvious that my concern is taking guys who don't contribute to the program. Semaj definitely doesn't fall into that category, especially if he has the type of year that will get him drafted early enough to leave.

[More Cowbell]

You missed Justin Martin being ineligible his first year. Taking partial qualifiers was the best way for a school in the A10 to get good recruits. I wouldn't expect to see this trend continue.

[xufan02]

You missed Justin Martin being ineligible his first year. Taking partial qualifiers was the best way for a school in the A10 to get good recruits. I wouldn't expect to see this trend continue.

Probably beacuse they are not allowed in the new conference......

[ArizonaXUGrad]

There are no partial qualifiers anymore. They qualify or they pay their first year on their own. Does the Big East accept non-qualifiers? I can't see why not.

[Milhouse]

Huh? I thought my post made it pretty obvious that my concern is taking guys who don't contribute to the program. Semaj definitely doesn't fall into that category, especially if he has the type of year that will get him drafted early enough to leave.

My point more or less was that while Mack has been hit or miss on some guys his 'hits' far far out way his misses. So I'm fine with him continuing his style/method of recruiting.

[casualfan]

My point more or less was that while Mack has been hit or miss on some guys his 'hits' far far out way his misses.


I respectfully disagree.

That may turn out to be the case, but to this point I don't think the evidence backs that up.

Last year was the first year he had a team of only guys he recruited and look how that turned out.

[Chalmers0]

The only thing that bugs me about this a bit is that it continues a trend of Mack taking commitments from guys who don't end up helping the team.




So of the guys you mentioned:

- Jeff Robinson: Scrambled and did the best he could after getting hired.
- Jay Canty: I still think he could have been a solid contributor at X, transferred to get minutes since he knew Dez and JMart were also going to play the 3. Hard to fault him or Mack.
- Jordan Latham: Hard to blame Mack for keeping a recruit that Miller wanted
- Justin Martin: If Justin didn't have the academic issue coming out of high school he would have been at Louisville.
- Griffin McKenzie: Absolute whiff.
- Dez Wells: Not sure how you can even remotely blame Mack for this one
- Myles Davis: Terrible luck again considering his Prep School issue. I actually thought Mack did a great job in keeping him at X when other players in the exact same position (Sam Cassell Jr.) opted to go the JuCo route.
- Jalen Reynolds: NBA Talent. Obviously knew there was going to be an academic risk. I have no issues with taking a risk like this. Probably would have had higher offers had academics not been in question.
- James Farr: Still a question mark as to if/when he will contribute but I wouldn't rule it out.
- Chris Cantino: Dez left, Ashley Howard knew of a forward and Mack took him out of desperation. Obviously didn't help the program but I don't see how it hurt the program in any way either
- Aleksander Vezenkov- Mack went out on a limb and went hard after a kid who was known as one of the top (if not the top) prospect of his age in Europe and he ended up playing so well at the U18's that he got a few nice contract offers

The only "misses" that I really put on Mack are Griffin and a little of Latham and Cantino. Also factor in that he has brought in NBA talent like Semaj as well as high impact transfers and I think your "concerns" are a bit over the top. I really don't understand what you would rather have Mack do.

[BandAid]

Plus he already has commitments from Sumner and Swift for '14. Now the jury hasn't even been assembled for those guys, but it's not like Chris is hokey-pokeying it.

[Milhouse]

So of the guys you mentioned:

- Jeff Robinson: Scrambled and did the best he could after getting hired.
- Jay Canty: I still think he could have been a solid contributor at X, transferred to get minutes since he knew Dez and JMart were also going to play the 3. Hard to fault him or Mack.
- Jordan Latham: Hard to blame Mack for keeping a recruit that Miller wanted
- Justin Martin: If Justin didn't have the academic issue coming out of high school he would have been at Louisville.
- Griffin McKenzie: Absolute whiff.
- Dez Wells: Not sure how you can even remotely blame Mack for this one
- Myles Davis: Terrible luck again considering his Prep School issue. I actually thought Mack did a great job in keeping him at X when other players in the exact same position (Sam Cassell Jr.) opted to go the JuCo route.
- Jalen Reynolds: NBA Talent. Obviously knew there was going to be an academic risk. I have no issues with taking a risk like this. Probably would have had higher offers had academics not been in question.
- James Farr: Still a question mark as to if/when he will contribute but I wouldn't rule it out.
- Chris Cantino: Dez left, Ashley Howard knew of a forward and Mack took him out of desperation. Obviously didn't help the program but I don't see how it hurt the program in any way either
- Aleksander Vezenkov- Mack went out on a limb and went hard after a kid who was known as one of the top (if not the top) prospect of his age in Europe and he ended up playing so well at the U18's that he got a few nice contract offers

The only "misses" that I really put on Mack are Griffin and a little of Latham and Cantino. Also factor in that he has brought in NBA talent like Semaj as well as high impact transfers and I think your "concerns" are a bit over the top. I really don't understand what you would rather have Mack do.

I pretty much agree with all of this.

And there is no denying last year would've been a very different year had we had someone else on the team that averaged 10 and 5 their freshman year....

I think it's very very unfair to judge Mack on last year in terms of his first year with all of his guys?

He's also done a Phenomenal job of identifying great Transfers and adding them to the program.

Travis Taylor, Philmore, Stainbrook, Abel, etc... That's one area he has excelled in. Can't even put Catino in that mix because he never would've been looked at if it weren't for the Dez situation.

[BMoreX]

The good news of this is that it opens up another scholarship that Mack can use for 2014 guys. There's a lot out there.

[casualfan]

Here's an update from Shannon. (http://cincinnati.com/blogs/xavier/2013/08/05/vezenkov/)

Not really anything new though.

[danaandvictory]

Mack is on a family vacation and none of the assistants had anything to do with Vezenkov's recruitment, so I doubt you'll hear much from XU until Chris gets back.

[XUFan09]

Did he just do a year of prep school by choice then?

1) Myles was looking to improve his game and try to raise his stock (A lot of players go the prep route for this reason). He had weight issues during high school which limited his game, so he wasn't really recruited much by high-majors until late in high school. It worked out, as his stock improved in the spring and soared during the summer, at which point he committed to Xavier a few weeks before his prep year. The year in prep competition has been really good for his game too. Semaj Christon and James Farr did a prep year too in order to improve their games too.

2) Prep school doesn't help out with eligibility nearly as much as people think. A recruit can raise his overall GPA (which wasn't an issue for Myles) and a he can make up one class that he didn't take during the first four years. You also have to keep in mind that the people putting together student schedules are often unaware of NCAA eligibility requirements, so they don't try to set up schedules aimed toward meeting those requirements. For example, the NCAA requires 4 credits of English, none of which can seem duplicates of each other. If English 2 and English 3 are too similar, they only count as one class, not two, and the recruit has to make it up. If in freshman year of high school, a player is enrolled in only one semester of a reading and writing course, then he has to make up one semester. There's not anything he can do beyond one fix, but Myles didn't have an issue until the NCAA retroactively invalidated his entire junior year.

[XUFan09]

Keep in mind, everyone, that Vezenkov was never really a big "risk." After the Dez fiasco, the 2013 recruiting trail was very difficult, as a lot of priority targets stopped considering Xavier, so the staff had to get creative. Kamall Richards was someone they didn't really go after until they lost recruits they had been working for awhile. Brandon Randolph was clear across the country, well outside Xavier's normal recruiting territory, but he happened to be underrecruited relative to his abilities. Mack went across the ocean to see Aleksander Vezenkov, because they were trying hard to fill out the 2013 class. He was recruited for a scholarship that otherwise would have been unused (save by a walkon). Did they lose money in this recruitment? Yes, but considering the unusual circumstances of this year, that wasn't a big issue. The real risk would have been if they missed out on other targets because they had a commitment from Vezenkov. They didn't; it was too late in the year for there to be a lot of recruits out there, and the staff still had two other scholarships available for last-minute changes (one being Remy Abell).

[LA Muskie]

There are no partial qualifiers anymore. They qualify or they pay their first year on their own. Does the Big East accept non-qualifiers? I can't see why not.

If they adopt the old Big East rule then no -- they won't accept non-qualifiers.

[LA Muskie]

I hope this has taught a few of you a lesson. You can't blindly trust every piece of information coming from the program. And when players are silent about their commitment it might not be much of one.

[PMI]

I hope this has taught a few of you a lesson. You can't blindly trust every piece of information coming from the program. And when players are silent about their commitment it might not be much of one.

What is this supposed to imply? Was there anyone who ever opined that Vezenkov was 100% coming here? Like it's been said all along, the staff had to go under the assumption that the kid who committed was coming here until it was proven otherwise. What about this unfortunate news suggests to you that Mack was ever being even remotely dishonest in saying that he expected the kid to come here? Virtually everyone who followed this recruitment knew this could happen, and unfortunately it did, but to say that people "blindly trusted every piece of information coming from the program" just because the kid chose the option of signing a pro contract is going way out on a limb.

This is very simple stuff. The kid had more than one option. He committed to Xavier and then changed his mind. The staff had no reason to say that they thought he wasn't going to come until he officially signed a pro contract. Not only were people not blindly trusting anything, given that we've all known the possibility this might happen, but you are blindly assuming that the kid was never truly committed, which is nothing more than your own speculation with the benefit of hindsight.

[KC4X]

Keep in mind, everyone, that Vezenkov was never really a big "risk." After the Dez fiasco, the 2013 recruiting trail was very difficult, as a lot of priority targets stopped considering Xavier, so the staff had to get creative. Kamall Richards was someone they didn't really go after until they lost recruits they had been working for awhile. Brandon Randolph was clear across the country, well outside Xavier's normal recruiting territory, but he happened to be underrecruited relative to his abilities. Mack went across the ocean to see Aleksander Vezenkov, because they were trying hard to fill out the 2013 class. He was recruited for a scholarship that otherwise would have been unused (save by a walkon). Did they lose money in this recruitment? Yes, but considering the unusual circumstances of this year, that wasn't a big issue. The real risk would have been if they missed out on other targets because they had a commitment from Vezenkov. They didn't; it was too late in the year for there to be a lot of recruits out there, and the staff still had two other scholarships available for last-minute changes (one being Remy Abell).

Maybe; but I read that Vezenkov had submitted a housing deposit. Maybe it was less than what was spent on the trips, etc., but it probably offset it somewhat. (I'm assuming it was non-refundable.)

[bigdiggins]

Good. We should only have Americans on the team anyway. And maybe Canadians if they're really good like Steve Nash or Andrew Nicholson. Or from Africa they seem like good people too judging by Romain and Gorgui Deng. Just no Former Soviet Empire Russian Bloc types, unless they can make a good stroganoff. Perhaps make it a pre-game dining option. Good hearty beef stroganoff on a cold winter evening.

[GoMuskies]

I used to think this Vez kid was gonna be a stud. Now I'm pretty sure he sucks.

[xfan'17]

Maybe; but I read that Vezenkov had submitted a housing deposit. Maybe it was less than what was spent on the trips, etc., but it probably offset it somewhat. (I'm assuming it was non-refundable.)

The housing deposit is $200 and I'm pretty sure it gets refunded once you move in.

[LA Muskie]

What is this supposed to imply? Was there anyone who ever opined that Vezenkov was 100% coming here? Like it's been said all along, the staff had to go under the assumption that the kid who committed was coming here until it was proven otherwise. What about this unfortunate news suggests to you that Mack was ever being even remotely dishonest in saying that he expected the kid to come here? Virtually everyone who followed this recruitment knew this could happen, and unfortunately it did, but to say that people "blindly trusted every piece of information coming from the program" just because the kid chose the option of signing a pro contract is going way out on a limb.

This is very simple stuff. The kid had more than one option. He committed to Xavier and then changed his mind. The staff had no reason to say that they thought he wasn't going to come until he officially signed a pro contract. Not only were people not blindly trusting anything, given that we've all known the possibility this might happen, but you are blindly assuming that the kid was never truly committed, which is nothing more than your own speculation with the benefit of hindsight.

I don't know where to start. You took something and ran way too far with it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[PMI]

I don't know where to start. You took something and ran way too far with it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

"I hope this has taught a few of you a lesson."

"You can't blindly trust every piece of information coming from the program."

"When a player is silent about a commitment there might not be much of one."

I don't know whether it's supposed to come across as an "I told you so," even though you didn't tell us so, so I asked what you were trying to say. The post came across as if you've thought the whole time that he was playing us, even though you haven't been saying that at all. You've been asking for more information the whole time. I, for example, realized that that was a moot exercise were advising you to remain patient. I guess my main question is, what is your point? What is this lesson that you are trying to teach? Seriously, I don't understand what it is that you apparently are wise to that others don't see here. What is the "blind trust" comment supposed to mean, and how exactly does it apply here? And who are exactly the few of us who needed to learn this lesson, which by no accounts even applies to this situation anyway?

I don't think I ran away with anything at all here. I just don't think your post made any sense.

[paulxu]

This thread had a 100% chance going in that one 50% was going to tell the other 50%, "I told you so."

[PMI]

This thread had a 100% chance going in that one 50% was going to tell the other 50%, "I told you so."

Which is fine, as long as the person who says it did, in fact, tell us so.

[LA Muskie]

Which is fine, as long as the person who says it did, in fact, tell us so.
PMI, if this is in reference to me, that's the problem -- I wasn't saying "I told you so." Not because I'm above that, but because I didn't. I had no idea if he was coming or not (and I was very much hoping he would.) All along, all I said was that the silence from Aleks' camp was curious, and noted that Mack was saying just about all he could say. That's it. Others took it to mean more than that, despite my best intentions.

Do I believe that Mack and Co. thought he ultimately would attend Xavier? Yes. Yes I do. Do I believe they were as confident as their public statements? No, no I do not. I have a few reasons for that. Obviously there is the fact that unlike just about any other recruit, he had pro options and was keeping them open. That's a pretty significant difference. Second is that he flew out to Europe to re-recruit him in the midst of the summer. And third is that unlike every other Xavier recruit in recent memory, he wasn't in a rush to get here, and he wasn't shouting from the rooftops that he was excited to join the program. None of these meant he wouldn't come. But they all point to less than the near certainty that Mack publicly espoused (and which Rick/Brian reported).

The reality is that we were his fallback option. He probably didn't tell Mack that, but it's pretty clear to me that's what we were. It was always pretty clear. And I'm fairly certain Mack and Co. knew that all along, anyway.

Finally, as you may have seen in the other thread, I agree with you that this was a worthwhile recruiting investment even if it didn't pan out this time. I like that Mack is thinking outside the box. To a fairly good degree, we have succeeded on the backs of partial qualifiers and non-qualifiers the last decade. We were able to do so because we were one of the top programs permitted to enroll those players. That gravy train has now ended, and we're going to need to find competitive advantages elsewhere.

[LA Muskie]

I guess my main question is, what is your point? What is this lesson that you are trying to teach? Seriously, I don't understand what it is that you apparently are wise to that others don't see here. What is the "blind trust" comment supposed to mean, and how exactly does it apply here? And who are exactly the few of us who needed to learn this lesson, which by no accounts even applies to this situation anyway?
PMI,

My point was simple: we can't always take things at face value. Here, what the program was releasing to the public clearly wasn't the entire story based on the context and circumstances. Do I believe the program misinformed us? Honestly, I don't now. But I believe they were certainly very careful about the information they released (such as the housing deposit), while quietly understanding that there was a significant risk he wouldn't join the program. In legal jargon, I think they released "half-truths." In fact, I think it probably became very clear to them this summer that we had become his fallback position.

[PMI]

PMI, if this is in reference to me, that's the problem -- I wasn't saying "I told you so." Not because I'm above that, but because I didn't. I had no idea if he was coming or not (and I was very much hoping he would.) All along, all I said was that the silence from Aleks' camp was curious, and noted that Mack was saying just about all he could say. That's it. Others took it to mean more than that, despite my best intentions.

Do I believe that Mack and Co. thought he ultimately would attend Xavier? Yes. Yes I do. Do I believe they were as confident as their public statements? No, no I do not. I have a few reasons for that. Obviously there is the fact that unlike just about any other recruit, he had pro options and was keeping them open. That's a pretty significant difference. Second is that he flew out to Europe to re-recruit him in the midst of the summer. And third is that unlike every other Xavier recruit in recent memory, he wasn't in a rush to get here, and he wasn't shouting from the rooftops that he was excited to join the program. None of these meant he wouldn't come. But they all point to less than the near certainty that Mack publicly espoused (and which Rick/Brian reported).

The reality is that we were his fallback option. He probably didn't tell Mack that, but it's pretty clear to me that's what we were. It was always pretty clear. And I'm fairly certain Mack and Co. knew that all along, anyway.

Finally, as you may have seen in the other thread, I agree with you that this was a worthwhile recruiting investment even if it didn't pan out this time. I like that Mack is thinking outside the box. To a fairly good degree, we have succeeded on the backs of partial qualifiers and non-qualifiers the last decade. We were able to do so because we were one of the top programs permitted to enroll those players. That gravy train has now ended, and we're going to need to find competitive advantages elsewhere.

I think we generally agree in regards to the Vezenkov situation as it was. I guess I just don't see where people took Mack's quotes as literally as your post seemed to suggest you thought they did. That's what I was referencing in the "told you so" response. When people posted things like, "Mack said he is confident he's coming, so until proven otherwise, I'll go with it," I don't think they were ever under the delusion that that meant he was 100% coming. I think it was virtually a given that if those of us following his recruitment from afar knew there was a possibility that he might go pro, than Mack knew that was a possibility too. I also think we've also learned as well as most over the years that you don't take a coach's quotes to the bank.

But all that said, what more could we expect people to go with than the coach's words? Nobody I knew of had any connections overseas. We all knew going pro could happen, but we also had no reason to believe that Mack didn't think he was planning on coming here. We don't know whether Vezenkov as playing us the whole time or whether he really had a tough decision on his hands. We didn't know how he was going to play this summer and what kind of contracts were going to be thrown at him. Sure, we can assume he wanted a good contract the whole time (and who wouldn't), and that we were a fallback plan, but that's an assumption as well. I don't think, even with what we know now, that you can call it the reality, because we don't have any idea how this whole thing played out. We only know what the end result was. There is obviously a reason Vezenkov's father kept him NCAA eligible up until now. That reason may have been to have a fall back plan, but that's not something we know for sure. That's why I responded to what I took as a "told you so" post, because all any of us can do is speculate, especially at the time when everyone was digging for answers that by all accounts were not yet there. What else was Mack supposed to say?


PMI,

My point was simple: we can't always take things at face value. Here, what the program was releasing to the public clearly wasn't the entire story based on the context and circumstances. Do I believe the program misinformed us? Honestly, I don't now. But I believe they were certainly very careful about the information they released (such as the housing deposit), while quietly understanding that there was a significant risk he wouldn't join the program. In legal jargon, I think they released "half-truths." In fact, I think it probably became very clear to them this summer that we had become his fallback position.

I see. And my point was that I don't see anyone in this thread or another who was taking Mack's word as gospel, or who doesn't understand what is and isn't "coach speak." When you and others were looking for information before there really was any available, how could anyone fault anyone for taking the coach's word until proven otherwise? That doesn't mean anyone thought it was a done deal, but Mack has no reason at all to misinform us or even dance around the issue. Had he said, "Alex has informed us he's coming but we understand he might be offered a pro contract that could interest him," I don't think that would have been any less "careful" than just saying that he thinks he's coming. Thus, I see absolutely no reason to believe that Mack saw Xavier as just his fallback option had he not had a good summer and gotten offered. That's my speculation, but I certainly would argue that it never has become "very clear" that he didn't want to come here if he were to get an offer. Nothing is any clearer than it was before, other than the end result. The reality is that we don't know everything and can only speculate, and that it is no longer worth the speculation anyway.

[LA Muskie]

We're cool PMI. There were a few (not you) who I felt were questioning the fact that I was questioning Mack's comments. But it's entirely possible I was misconstruing what they were saying.

I'm bummed. I think he was a great find and would have been an intriguing "get." Onwards and upwards though.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

My opinion with recruits is the same as it is with women. When one says no, I say....NEXT!

[mistabeecee41]

My opinion with recruits is the same as it is with women. When one says no, I say....NEXT!

(insert Dez Wells joke here)

[PMI]

My opinion with recruits is the same as it is with women. When one says no, I say....NEXT!

I'm glad Chris Mack doesn't have your standards.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I'm glad Chris Mack doesn't have your standards.

You missed my point. I don't dwell when we are shunned by one recruit for another school or in this case a pro contract. I would imagine Chris Mack moved on as quickly.

[paulxu]

Just think, if he has only been offered pro contracts, decides not to accept, and comes to Xavier............

the other 50% can say "I told you so!"

[kyxu]

Vezenkov has been removed from Xavier's roster, so I guess it is pretty official...

http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/xavi-m-baskbl-mtt.html

[Xman95]

Vezenkov has been removed from Xavier's roster, so I guess it is pretty official...

http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/xavi-m-baskbl-mtt.html

Who? :laugh:

[GoMuskies]

Not sure why I do this to myself, but....

Vezenkov is averaging 11 points in 28 minutes per game for Aris. He is shooting 61.7% from the field, including 39.4% from 3. I'm thinking he might have provided more than just a bit of help with our offensive issues this year.

http://basketball.eurobasket.com/player/Aleksandar_Vezenkov/Greece/Aris_Thessaloniki/203543

[paulxu]

Masochist.