Over the Rhine

[Masterofreality]

Interesting story in the Enemaquirer yesterday about the ongoing transformation of Over the Rhine. Looks like developers have moved in and are rehabbing building after building.

Story below:

Over The Rhine Redevelopment (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120414/BIZ/304150025)

As the article states: " A remake of Over-the-Rhine is by no means complete. More than 300 buildings remain vacant, and 79 have been condemned as unsafe for use."

So here's the question. What the hell is slumlord Snipe going to do? They are moving inexorably toward his turf and may soon annex his kingdom.

It never fails. A guy works his butt off to acquire depressed real estate under questionable circumstances, then that damn government steps in and favors someone else. :rolleyes:

It's an outrage!!!!!

[boozehound]

That article paints a mighty rosey picture.

Last time I was in OTR was a few weeks ago and and while I didn't stay long it still looked pretty depressed to me. Lots of homeless people and the like. I'm still don't think it is somewhere I would want to live or walk around at night, outside of (maybe) a few certain areas.

Even if they do succeed in 'revitalizing' OTR it is just going to come at the expense of some other neighborhood. They aren't fixing the problem (poverty) they are just spreading it around. That way instead of having one concentrated area of high crime (OTR) that is easy to avoid we have pockets throughout the city. Ask Memphis how that worked out.

[xudash]

I read the article.

A couple of things to consider booze:

1. That is a lot of investment already, especially during a period of a down real estate market. Ironically, as was pointed out in the article, that down market probably helped provide a kickstart to the effort; and

2. Bringing OTR back can only help Cincinnati because it's an historic area and, more importantly, its in the greater downtown region - it's about bringing the inner city back and all the nightlife and commerce that comes with that.

What they have coming on line is substantial as well. It takes time to come together, but it sounds like that it is coming together. Remember that the article said the comeback is something like in year 6 and is way ahead of what other similarly depressed "projects" of this kind required in terms of time.

Otherwise, if dislocations have to occur, then Clifton is right up the hill, if I recall correctly.

[bobbiemcgee]

Will this bring back the Streetcar?:D

[boozehound]

I read the article.

A couple of things to consider booze:

1. That is a lot of investment already, especially during a period of a down real estate market. Ironically, as was pointed out in the article, that down market probably helped provide a kickstart to the effort; and

2. Bringing OTR back can only help Cincinnati because it's an historic area and, more importantly, its in the greater downtown region - it's about bringing the inner city back and all the nightlife and commerce that comes with that.

What they have coming on line is substantial as well. It takes time to come together, but it sounds like that it is coming together. Remember that the article said the comeback is something like in year 6 and is way ahead of what other similarly depressed "projects" of this kind required in terms of time.

Otherwise, if dislocations have to occur, then Clifton is right up the hill, if I recall correctly.

I understand that argument, but Price Hill is a historic area as well. So is Clifton. That's where the displaced people are most likely to go. I know that we all hate UC here, but I don't want their students getting robbed and raped. Clifton is already pretty bad, I'm not sure how much worse it can get while maintaining an acceptable level of safety for their students.

The areas around Xavier could end up receiving some of the section 8 housing that leaves OTR as well, making our campus less safe for our students. Xavier is already bordered by a bunch of shady areas.

[Snipe]

Boozehound does have a point. You can get the bums, whores, crazies and drug addicts out of Washington Park, but they are going to go somewhere. I think revitalizing Washington Park is a great idea, but somebody will suffer because of it. It is the displacement. And Memphis is a great example of how that worked out.

If you choose to be an optimist, a lot of development is happening in Cincinnati with OTR, the Casino, the Banks and the Choo Choo.

I have heard optimism before. They were going to put hundreds of millions into the West End when they tore down the projects. They were going to put in mixed income housing. We bought into the West End then. They tore down the projects and then built the low income part of the "mixed income" housing first. They never got around to the market rate homes, or at least they never sold. The later phases of the plan were rejected by HUD and the City, and it all just died. The government bought up several buildings in my neighborhood and boarded them up while they awaited funding for the next phase. They never got funding and here we are over a decade later with the buildings still boarded up. I own rental property next to boarded up government owned buildings. It is great for property value.

Then they decided to form a corporation to spur development. The major plan was to take the most depressed area, buy it up and move all of the social services and homeless somewhere else. Too bad I didn't invest close to where they are pouring money in, because I would have made a killing. I invested where they said they were going to pour money in, and they changed their plans. To make things better, they are moving the social services and the homeless to my neighborhood, or at least doing their level best at it. We have spent years fighting it.

Every city has one place where the homeless are accepted. If you were homeless in Hyde Park they wouldn't let you stay. If you are an indigent without a home at the hospital they pay for your cab down to the Drop Inn Center in OTR, at least they used too. OTR was the place where people were dumped. Crazies, junkies, whores, they all got dumped there. Businesses and people moved out, at the least the people that could get out. Now they want to redevelop it, but nobody wants those people.

By nature Shelters are horrible for a neighborhood. The Drop Inn center can sleep a couple of hundred at least, and they aren't the only shelter in OTR. Come morning they make them all get up and get out for the day. They would mull around Washington Park. When you are homeless, the world is your bathroom. Imagine the tons of human refuse that they have shit and pissed on OTR over the years. Who wants to live next to that? Whereever they eventually locate the crazies, that neighborhood will be doomed for decades. It is a life sentence.

I think I made the wrong call. That is life. You pay your money and you takes your chances. Had the first government project done well with full funding, I could have made some money. We still hope that things will turn out well. We aren't that far from Findlay Market, and I love that place. If the Choo Choo wants to go to Findlay, the Casino and the Museums at Union Terminal we will get the Choo Choo coming through the West End.

I think that we should concentrate all of the homeless and the drug addicts in Queensgate away from residential neighborhoods and schools. I also think we should give them all the beer they want to drink, let them do their drugs (re Hampsterdam) and let that be the place where we choose to push society's most unfortunate.

[ford]

Even if they do succeed in 'revitalizing' OTR it is just going to come at the expense of some other neighborhood. They aren't fixing the problem (poverty) they are just spreading it around. That way instead of having one concentrated area of high crime (OTR) that is easy to avoid we have pockets throughout the city. Ask Memphis how that worked out.

...Or Chicago. As they've torn down the Cabrini Green projects and others, the thugs (not gangstas) have been spread out leading to pockets of crime in otherwise "safe" neighborhoods. I'm all for that kind of integration opportunity being provided to people who want to make an honest living, stay off drugs and provide a better life for their family. I think that the only way you break that cycle is to immerse people in a different culture with different values. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much enforcement of those kinds of standards in these developments, as gangs and crime activity run rampant and leads to new turf wars we none previously existed.

Granted, this effect is exacerbated in city neighboorhoods versus suburbs due to the layouts, but it still is one of those ideas that looks great on some liberal's grand paper plan, but forgets to put in place the accountability measures to actually create change.

[LadyMuskie]

Even if they do succeed in 'revitalizing' OTR it is just going to come at the expense of some other neighborhood. They aren't fixing the problem (poverty) they are just spreading it around. That way instead of having one concentrated area of high crime (OTR) that is easy to avoid we have pockets throughout the city. Ask Memphis how that worked out.


I understand that argument, but Price Hill is a historic area as well. So is Clifton. That's where the displaced people are most likely to go. I know that we all hate UC here, but I don't want their students getting robbed and raped. Clifton is already pretty bad, I'm not sure how much worse it can get while maintaining an acceptable level of safety for their students.

The areas around Xavier could end up receiving some of the section 8 housing that leaves OTR as well, making our campus less safe for our students. Xavier is already bordered by a bunch of shady areas.

Sadly this is so true. Westwood, in particular, has been devastated by the "revitalization" of OTR. The westwood that was home to the Gamble of "Procter & Gamble" is a nightmare. Crime is way up. The beautiful, historic mansions lining Harrison Avenue and elsewhere in Westwood are going up for sale right and left. Even those homes that weren't mansions are being neglected and Rookwood fireplaces, amongst other things are being destroyed by the inhabitants who have neither the finances nor the desire to care for these homes. It's sad on so many different levels.

But the bottom line is that Cincinnati is a city rife with history. Every city neighborhood has historic homes, historic places and stories to tell. We shouldn't neglect any of them in favor of another. At one time, Cincinnati was bigger than Chicago and St. Louis and had more money than those two cities too. Our neighborhoods are proof positive of that fact. We can't turn our backs on Clifton, Westwood, Price Hill or Avondale just because we turned our backs on OTR in the past.



Boozehound does have a point. You can get the bums, whores, crazies and drug addicts out of Washington Park, but they are going to go somewhere. I think revitalizing Washington Park is a great idea, but somebody will suffer because of it. It is the displacement. And Memphis is a great example of how that worked out.


Every city has one place where the homeless are accepted. If you were homeless in Hyde Park they wouldn't let you stay. If you are an indigent without a home at the hospital they pay for your cab down to the Drop Inn Center in OTR, at least they used too. OTR was the place where people were dumped. Crazies, junkies, whores, they all got dumped there. Businesses and people moved out, at the least the people that could get out. Now they want to redevelop it, but nobody wants those people.

By nature Shelters are horrible for a neighborhood. The Drop Inn center can sleep a couple of hundred at least, and they aren't the only shelter in OTR. Come morning they make them all get up and get out for the day. They would mull around Washington Park. When you are homeless, the world is your bathroom. Imagine the tons of human refuse that they have shit and pissed on OTR over the years. Who wants to live next to that? Whereever they eventually locate the crazies, that neighborhood will be doomed for decades. It is a life sentence.



Snipe is absolutely right too. Unfortunately, there will always be homeless and they have to "live" somewhere. I think we do them a disservice when we continually shuffle them around. Many of our homeless have addiction problems and/or are mentally suffering in some way. To shuffle them around from one neighborhood to another is unfair and unkind to them.

When I worked downtown there was a man who sat in front of my parking garage. He was harmless but also homeless. The parking garage I parked in was going to be torn down to make way for new development, and one morning on my way out of the lobby, the garage manager told the man that the garage was closing at the end of the month. When this man was told that he started sobbing. He had been sitting in front of that garage for 15 years. He considered it his home. I was actually crying myself watching this because regardless of what society thought of him for being homeless, he considered certain areas his home, and this was one of them and it was being taken away.

So, many of these individuals probably considered Washington Park a home. It might not be right, but they are human beings with feelings.

I think the plan to move the drop in shelter to the area next to the main post office and Union Terminal is a grave mistake. For starters, Union Terminal is already in desperate need of repair and money. The biggest draw that museum has is moms and kids during the week when the placed is packed. Once the drop inn center goes in and those moms and kids from Mason and West Chester can't get into the Children's Museum without seeing someone passed out drunk or someone asking them for money, the Museum Center will get one final nail in its coffin.

Secondly, I think it takes away the homeless from everything they know and that can cause problems for individuals who need that stability - no matter how minor we might think it is. The areas that they're used to are now going to be a fair walk away. No more sitting on the steps of the Courthouse, but now maybe they'll grace the steps of Union Terminal.

I feel for the homeless in our city. No one wants them (and I'll be honest I don't want them in my neighborhood), but they need to go somewhere. In the case of the homeless and poor, like so many other things in this city, the people in charge lack the foresight to make decisions that won't make things worse. In 50 years, Westwood, Avondale and Price Hill will be under the microscope the way OTR is now because we will have moved the "bad" element from OTR to those neighborhoods. Instead of fighting the causes of poverty and homelessness, we just keep ignoring it or trying to treat the symptoms which will never solve the problems.

[xeus]

When is it "development" and when is it "gentrification"? Are there not OTR residents being displaced, and where are they going? I keep thinking of that Simpsons episode with the homeless guy morphing into a mailbox.

[boozehound]

When is it "development" and when is it "gentrification"? Are there not OTR residents being displaced, and where are they going? I keep thinking of that Simpsons episode with the homeless guy morphing into a mailbox.

"We don't have bums in Cypress Creek, Marge, but if we did they wouldn't have to rush. They'd be allowed to go at their own pace."

Classic Simpsons episode.

[LadyMuskie]

I think to the people doing the developing (i.e., the City of Cincinnati, people with money) it's development. To the people being quietly removed from their homes or the areas they know and love, it's gentrification. Semantics.

[sirthought]

I lived around this area for quite some time. I don't feel the transition has been too quick, as it has really been changing steadily since about 2001. More folks are talking about it now because 3CDC has a PR staff and other developers don't. The Mercer Commons project is large, but there are apartments and condos moving left and right there. Even if you go out on a weeknight in the Gateway, businesses aren't always packed, but busy. The weekends are getting a bit too crowded, as it's difficult to park, get a table, etc.

After the riots huge numbers of people left just because the fear of that happening again. Both poor and middle class left in droves. These buildings had nothing going for them other than redevelopment.

There is always a concern about displacing the poor from an area they can afford, but on many of these streets (Vine, Main, Elm) I don't feel it's as much displacement as the people actually renting there just simply left. The vacancy rate was quite high, which was a blessing in many regards because it allowed property owners to re-evaluate what the possibilities are.

I've heard crime has been reduced 50% in OTR since 2004 and I wonder what the percent is since 2001. Yes the crime might show up in other areas, but OTR needed this and Cincinnati needs more of this. I do believe that if the economy picks up in these areas that some of the poor will be positively effected. Others will always struggle.

Washington Park and the streetcar is going to be a huge impact. I don't feel there will be as wide of an impact as most do about the casino, as I think there will be a honeymoon and many folks will just forget about it. But the park will be a concerted community focus for programming and the streetcar has and will inspire private investment.

[xubrew]

Xavier used to have something called the Urban Service Learning Semester. Perhaps they still do. Essentially, you would move down to Race Street in Over the Rhine, work down there, and take your classes at the Peaslee (spell??) Center for an entire semester. It was conceptually similar to Study Abroad, but instead of going abroad, you went to the ghetto.

I decided to do it the second semester of my sophomore year. Now, twelve years later, I can't remember exactly why I decided to do it. There was an application process, and you had to write a four page paper explaining your interest. I really don't even remember what I said. All I can think of is that my curiousity for new experiences was pretty vast back then. It still is. I still don't know how to encapsulate what I got out of it. I think most people do it because they are passionate about community service and feel a calling to help others. I probably said something like that in my application, and I did and still do feel that way to a point, but to be completely truthful, I think I really just wanted to do something that I found both interesting and intriguing. I can't encapsulate it, but I can say it was definitely both of those things.

The Drop Inn Center was where I worked. After the semester was over, i continued to work there and did so up until the riots, which was about a year later. We always knew it was a possibility, and even used to have "riot drills." Still, after it had happened, I'd decided I'd had enough. I got a new job where getting shot, stabbed or beaten was not a legitimate workplace hazard.

I completely understand what Snipe is saying. I don't know if it is still this way, but there were homeless people that would actually come in from other cities. As nuts as the Drop Inn Center was/is, it's actually pretty emaculate by homeless standards, and homeless people from everywhere flocked there. That is a Catch 22. (It's one of many) You want to serve the homeless, but in doing so, you attract the homeless, so the homeless population actually increases.

Whereas it was emaculate by homeless standards, it was shitty by all other standards. Many residents (that's how we referred to them) were constantly in and out of jail. Given the choice between Drop Inn and Jail, many preferred jail, so they'd try and get arrested. The irony was that cops caught onto this, and wouldn't run them in. They'd just drop them back off with us. The story about hospitals paying cab fair to the Center is true as well. Now think about that for a second. The Drop Inn Center is a very well intentioned place, and I believe in much of the work that they do and that the people who work there are selfless and caring people. Having said that, you're creating a magnet that attracts people who are dangerous. Not all homeless people are dangerous, but a lot of them are.

In addition to being a homeless shelter, the DIC was also a drug and alcohol rehab center. It was where the court sent people who were sentenced to rehab, and many of htem had no intention of getting better. What was called rehab and intended to be rehab on the surface was a meeting place and seminar for addicts to find new ways to get drugs. So, combine that with everything else that went on there, and you've got a lot of dangerous people conglomerating in one area. Of course that's bad for the surrounding neighborhoods.

I could tell stories all day long. My first few days there, a guy came in who's foot was beyond infected. We're talking black, gangrene type infection. Not having ever seen anything like this before, I panicked and called 911. I remember the people that I worked with (volunteered under at the time) laughing about it and saying that I'd either get used to it or go crazy. The next day, the dude's foot had been cut off. I remember that because it was the first one, but things indelible happened every single night, and you do get used to it, and when you get used to it you don't notice it as much adn aren't bothered by it as much. I can also understand why people don't want that in their neighborhoods, and I don't blame them.

I have no answers. On one hand, I feel for those people. For people that are staying at the Drop Inn Center, there is little to no hope of their lives getting much better. I know now that most of the people I worked with at the time are probably dead or in jail. It's not good when being in jail is better of two outcomes. At the same time, to point the finger at those who want to "clean up" the area and say they're out of line, which is something the activists love to do, that's not right either.

The peace core and college students who do service work down there are very vocal, but they still don't live down there, and if they do, they're like me and are only down there a short time. I understand and applaud wanting to help people, but in many cases you're hellping people in someone else's neighborhood at their expense. Unless you're willing to take those homeless people/addicts/criminals to your neighborhood, I don't think it is fair to criticize those who live down there that express displeasure toward having homeless shelters and homeless malls in their communities.


Hmmm, I realize this post answered nothing and offered no options. I wish I had some.

[PM Thor]

Call me jaded, but I'm not walking down Pleasant Street anytime soon. I'll wait until it's completely gentrified, thank you.

I HATE dayton.

[nickgyp]

I live in Westwood. The "great news" for the OTR is very bad news for Westwood. The crime is getting worse and it is getting more violent. Anyone want to know why the UDF at Boudinot and Queen City added loud outdoor classical music screaming from speakers? Well, it ain't to attract Patricia Corbett and Music Hall types.

[Masterofreality]

Call me jaded, but I'm not walking down Pleasant Street anytime soon. I'll wait until it's completely gentrified, thank you.

I HATE dayton.

I think I'll take this as the most incisive commentary on this thread- from a guy who's livelihood is to serve the public and is in the backstreets of the city daily.

The most interesting thing about the article to me was that they basically interviewed and photographed 2 people, and then made it sound like a "movement". I'm sure that there are other urban pioneers there, some of whom didn't want the pub because if any thug reads a newspaper in OTR, then those pioneers could become a target.

Reminds me of what has happened in Ohio City up here in Cleveburg. The "regentrification" has been going on for 20 years now, with mixed results. A step forward, then a step or two back.

You know what has a huge influence in keeping neighborhoods viable? The Catholic Church parishes- like St. Pats and St. Colmans on the near west side up here. They do one helluva lot of work in the community that government fails at- and does it a lot more efficiently. We volunteer at St. Colmans and are on the Steering Committee for their Capital Campaign. I see what we do and how we do it prudently with zero waste.


If the Feds wanted to hand out "stimulus money" they should have handed it out to the local parishes. There would have been a lot more bang for the buck.

[Kahns Krazy]

Interesting story in the Enemaquirer yesterday about the ongoing transformation of Over the Rhine. Looks like developers have moved in and are rehabbing building after building.

Story below:

Over The Rhine Redevelopment (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120414/BIZ/304150025)

That story certainly had an agenda from the start, but the story of what's happening in OTR deserves to be told. Some of the progress is undeniable, and it doesn't hurt to remind those that haven't been downtown since they were at Howl at the Moon the night before the riots that it isn't 2001 anymore.


Even if they do succeed in 'revitalizing' OTR it is just going to come at the expense of some other neighborhood. They aren't fixing the problem (poverty) they are just spreading it around. That way instead of having one concentrated area of high crime (OTR) that is easy to avoid we have pockets throughout the city. Ask Memphis how that worked out.

I disagree. It can come at the expense of other cities. This city lacks a strong downtown, and studies are showing over and over that that is what the current generation of college graduates are looking for. Cincinnati is not a strong contender for recent graduates looking for their first job. Changing that and reversing our decades of population decline is critical to generating the revenue required to provide services like police.

Frankly, even if they are just moving it to another neighborhood, that could be a net gain for the city. I believe the OTR area is far more important to the long term viability of the city than most other neighborhoods because of its proximity to the CBD, City Hall, ballparks, riverfront and new casino development.




When is it "development" and when is it "gentrification"? Are there not OTR residents being displaced, and where are they going? I keep thinking of that Simpsons episode with the homeless guy morphing into a mailbox.

When is it "income" and when is it "expense"? It depends on which side of the transaction you are on. There is still tons of vacant space available, and those who are being displaced aren't being shipped to Cleveland or anything, they are moving next door. I think classifying the OTR redevelopment as gentrification is unfair. As the article states, "mixed income" neighborhoods can only be mixed if some are making more than others.



You know what has a huge influence in keeping neighborhoods viable? The Catholic Church parishes- like St. Pats and St. Colmans on the near west side up here. They do one helluva lot of work in the community that government fails at- and does it a lot more efficiently. We volunteer at St. Colmans and are on the Steering Committee for their Capital Campaign. I see what we do and how we do it prudently with zero waste.


If the Feds wanted to hand out "stimulus money" they should have handed it out to the local parishes. There would have been a lot more bang for the buck.

I've been bashing the Church pretty good in another thread here, so I'll take a moment to praise them. MOR is dead on. St. Francis Seraph is probably the best thing happening in OTR. Real people doing real good work, cutting through bullshit, not letting themselves get walked over, and not getting too worked up about things that really don't matter.

Bureaucrats can't fix problem neighborhoods, but good neighbors can.

[xudash]

................

Bureaucrats can't fix problem neighborhoods, but good neighbors can.

That is one of the most intelligent sentences I've ever read on this board.

[Roach]

I agree with Snipe and LadyMuskie. Cities cannot eliminate poverty through zoning or by promoting "revitalization". DC has seen this predicament for the past 50 years. Little by little, the impoverished neighborhoods of the District have been gobbled up and revitalized by upper-middle-class and, predominantly, upper-class professionals. The U-Street, H-Street, Navy Yard, Eastern Market and East Capitol Hill neighborhoods are seeing this now, much like Capitol Hill proper did in the 90s and early 2000s. The effect has been for much of the poor to crowd into Brookland and Anacostia and even moreso into Prince George County in Maryland. As the price of real-estate has continually risen inside the District, land and home values in PGC, when adjusted for inflation, have decreased in many areas. While I definitely love to see historic neighborhoods preserved and revitalized, it's important to remain mindful that poverty is systemic, and not something which one can simply remedy with zoning or revitalization projects. They're nothing more than band-aids in this respect.

[xudash]

I agree with Snipe and LadyMuskie. Cities cannot eliminate poverty through zoning or by promoting "revitalization". DC has seen this predicament for the past 50 years. Little by little, the impoverished neighborhoods of the District have been gobbled up and revitalized by upper-middle-class and, predominantly, upper-class professionals. The U-Street, H-Street, Navy Yard, Eastern Market and East Capitol Hill neighborhoods are seeing this now, much like Capitol Hill proper did in the 90s and early 2000s. The effect has been for much of the poor to crowd into Brookland and Anacostia and even moreso into Prince George County in Maryland. As the price of real-estate has continually risen inside the District, land and home values in PGC, when adjusted for inflation, have decreased in many areas. While I definitely love to see historic neighborhoods preserved and revitalized, it's important to remain mindful that poverty is systemic, and not something which one can simply remedy with zoning or revitalization projects. They're nothing more than band-aids in this respect.

Making cities better through investment and reclamation projects is one topic.

Addressing systemic poverty is a separate topic.

I'm not sure anyone here is suggesting that anyone involved in the OTR development efforts are attempting to fix poverty there. I think they're developing OTR for investment and to make the greater downtown Cincinnati area more vibrant.

All that isn't to say that poverty should be ignored, but it should be clear to anyone here that government solutions to poverty, per se, generally aren't the answer. I don't want to politicize this thread, but long-term fixes to poverty can only begin to possibly see results when heavy emphasis is placed on improving the educational system, cutting subsidies for people who pursue careless births of human beings, providing stronger sex education programs, and providing creative, constructive programs for youth that keep them from drugs, etc.

[Roach]

Making cities better through investment and reclamation projects is one topic.

Addressing systemic poverty is a separate topic.

I'm not sure anyone here is suggesting that anyone involved in the OTR development efforts are attempting to fix poverty there. I think they're developing OTR for investment and to make the greater downtown Cincinnati area more vibrant.

All that isn't to say that poverty should be ignored, but it should be clear to anyone here that government solutions to poverty, per se, generally aren't the answer. I don't want to politicize this thread, but long-term fixes to poverty can only begin to possibly see results when heavy emphasis is placed on improving the educational system, cutting subsidies for people who pursue careless births of human beings, providing stronger sex education programs, and providing creative, constructive programs for youth that keep them from drugs, etc.

How about strengthening the nuclear family in impoverished areas, including (but not limited to) promoting well-balanced, cohesive two-parent households, rebuilding fatherhood / ensuring that fathers have positive involvement in their children's lives, and stressing that one can cultivate self-discipline and achieve academic success despite being poor? It would seem to me that these deficiencies are equally destructive in the lives of the urban poor (and rural poor, for that matter) as the things that you've mentioned. As someone with several friends who are inner-city public school teachers, I cannot tell you the number of times I've heard them say, "There is only so much you can un-teach what these kids learn at home."

[Roach]

Has anyone ever seen Roach and Snipe in the same place at the same time?

ROFL! I can't say that I've ever met any poster on this board in person, let alone Snipe. I can assure you, though, that he and I are not same person and that I do NOT condone eugenics, even in jest ...

[LadyMuskie]

I disagree. It can come at the expense of other cities. This city lacks a strong downtown, and studies are showing over and over that that is what the current generation of college graduates are looking for. Cincinnati is not a strong contender for recent graduates looking for their first job. Changing that and reversing our decades of population decline is critical to generating the revenue required to provide services like police.

Bureaucrats can't fix problem neighborhoods, but good neighbors can.

I wonder if you'd feel the same way about other parts of the city paying the expense if they were shuttling the poor and criminal element to Hyde Park, Mt. Adams or Mt. Lookout. It's very easy to say that other parts of town can shoulder the burden of the poor and the criminals when you're not living in that part of town.

I live inside the City limits and I'd be pissed to the point of showing my face at every council meeting from now until the end of time if the City did to my neighborhood what it is doing to Westwood and Price Hill. Destroying those neighborhoods beyond recognition is not something that is going to be fixed by OTR becoming a hot spot for bars and young people who will leave once they have kids.

Moreover, if destroying other neighborhoods in favor of OTR really isn't that big of a deal, then surely the residents of Hyde Park, Mt. Adams and Mt. Lookout will gladly accept their fair share of low income housing to house the drug dealers and shelters to care for the homeless. Oddly, none of the residents from these communities are offering any land despite the fact that the "revitalization" of OTR is so great for the city as a whole. I wonder why that is?

I do agree, however, that government cannot cure poverty or fix a neighborhood bent on living outside the law. People themselves have to want to change. I heard Chris Smitherman on WLW telling the white residents of Cincinnati that he welcomes their input as to how to fix the black community. I understand what he wants, but it will never work that way. Just as you cannot fix an addict from the outside in, you cannot fix a broken neighborhood unless those living in that neighborhood want it to be fixed. Which is why the "redevelopment" of OTR is never going to be fully recognized until the drug dealers, prostitutes, homeless, etc. decide that they really want to give it up. Otherwise, all you're going to have (and what you have right now) are pockets of redeveloped areas that look really nice, but if you look one block in either direction it's scary as hell for most people. That situation is never going to bring revenue to the City.


Making cities better through investment and reclamation projects is one topic.

Addressing systemic poverty is a separate topic.

I'm not sure anyone here is suggesting that anyone involved in the OTR development efforts are attempting to fix poverty there. I think they're developing OTR for investment and to make the greater downtown Cincinnati area more vibrant.

All that isn't to say that poverty should be ignored, but it should be clear to anyone here that government solutions to poverty, per se, generally aren't the answer. I don't want to politicize this thread, but long-term fixes to poverty can only begin to possibly see results when heavy emphasis is placed on improving the educational system, cutting subsidies for people who pursue careless births of human beings, providing stronger sex education programs, and providing creative, constructive programs for youth that keep them from drugs, etc.

Sadly, when it comes to OTR, you cannot remove poverty from the equation. OTR was once one of the poorest neighborhoods in the entire country, not just Cincinnati. So, saying that poverty is a discussion separate from that of redeveloping OTR is like saying you can't talk about Obama or Romney when discussing the upcoming presidential election. You can't separate the two because they're too interconnected.

There are a lot of poor people in OTR. There are more poor people than wealthy people by far. If the plan from the City is to redevelop the entire OTR neighborhood, then you have to have a plan on what you're going to do with the poor, some of whom are also violent criminals and some of whom are drug addicts and drug dealers. We've heard others in this thread talk about how the redevelopment of similar areas in other cities has not faired well at all for the city as a whole, and yet we (have a need to) believe that things will be different for OTR.

I just don't see it, but what I do see is that now we have several neighborhoods that are being destroyed so that a few blocks of OTR can be rebuilt. If OTR becomes "the place to be" in my lifetime, I'll be shocked. The redevelopment has been going on now for nearly two decades, and within the last year there have been at least two shootings near Findlay Market. I don't think everyone has gotten the memo that OTR is safer/better/prettier than it used to be.

[Snipe]

ROFL! I can't say that I've ever met any poster on this board in person, let alone Snipe. I can assure you, though, that he and I are not same person and that I do NOT condone eugenics, even in jest ...


I bet you do. Do you think that brothers and sisters should be legally allowed to marry? Most of us condone Eugenics, it is the odd man out that doesn't.

I still have to cobble together my Eugenics post though, so carry on with the thread...

[Kahns Krazy]

I wonder if you'd feel the same way about other parts of the city paying the expense if they were shuttling the poor and criminal element to Hyde Park, Mt. Adams or Mt. Lookout. It's very easy to say that other parts of town can shoulder the burden of the poor and the criminals when you're not living in that part of town.


I missed in delivering my point. Revitalization of OTR does not have to come at the expense of other neighborhoods if it attracts net, new, young professional residents. What Cincinnati as a whole needs more of is educated employable young people. When I say at the expense of other cities, I'm talking outside of the Greater Cincinnati area.

By building the core, we have a better tax base to deliver services including public safety and social services.

[LadyMuskie]

Fair enough. I misread cities and saw neighborhoods. I agree with your point when I actually read what you wrote properly.

[Founding Father]

I missed in delivering my point. Revitalization of OTR does not have to come at the expense of other neighborhoods if it attracts net, new, young professional residents. What Cincinnati as a whole needs more of is educated employable young people. When I say at the expense of other cities, I'm talking outside of the Greater Cincinnati area.

By building the core, we have a better tax base to deliver services including public safety and social services.

I don't see a revitalized OTR attracting or retaining new college graduates. Jobs, good jobs do that. Cincinnati continues to lose population or at best stays pat. Building more restaurants, bars and apartments only moves people around the city, it rarely brings in new people. Jobs or job opportunities make people stay or come to Cincinnati.

[Kahns Krazy]

It's true they won't come without jobs, but we have plenty of good companies in the area that do hire, and would hire more, young people if they could. I have a very hard time when I am looking to hire recent graduates finding them in the Cincinnati market.

The two go hand in hand.

[Founding Father]

It's true they won't come without jobs, but we have plenty of good companies in the area that do hire, and would hire more, young people if they could. I have a very hard time when I am looking to hire recent graduates finding them in the Cincinnati market.

The two go hand in hand.

I guess that is where we disagree because I don't see them going hand in hand.

Cincinnati has always had affordable housing in neighborhoods close to downtown or at least in a reasonable commuting time from downtown. New college grads are not all of the sudden going to start staying here because of a revitalized OTR. There are lots or reasons they leave, mostly for better jobs or just to "leave the nest". Having 6 new condo complexes next to crack houses won't change that.

[Kahns Krazy]

Having 6 new condo complexes next to crack houses won't change that.

No wonder we disagree.

[Founding Father]

No wonder we disagree.

I was exagerating for effect but this is directly from the article:

"A remake of Over-the-Rhine is by no means complete. More than 300 buildings remain vacant, and 79 have been condemned as unsafe for use. The neighborhood still has a high percentage of social service agencies serving low-income and homeless residents."

What do you think goes on in these 300 buildings next to the new condos?

[spazzrico]

If OTR becomes "the place to be" in my lifetime, I'll be shocked. The redevelopment has been going on now for nearly two decades, and within the last year there have been at least two shootings near Findlay Market. I don't think everyone has gotten the memo that OTR is safer/better/prettier than it used to be.

In my opinion, it absolutely is going to happen. There are some very strong trends that suggest it.

1) America is reawakening to good urbanism. We were terrible at urbanists after WWII until very recently. In fact, we absolutely squandered a great deal of our post-war prosperity by building sprawled out inefficient cities to the extent that now when we finally would like to build well functioning mass transit it will be difficult to do so due to low densities....

2) People want to live in cities again, and realize that they provide for an amazing life. This is a country-wide trend.

3) People crave old/historical/unique architecture. These places became ultra rare in the U.S. due to horribly conceived urban renewal plans. We leveled so many of these areas. Scarcity breeds value. It's ironic that OTR basically was preserved due to its poverty and white flight driving so much investment to the burbs. The bones of these buildings hold a great deal of value and capitalists view them as vehicles for investment.

4) Rising fuel costs. People do still work downtown. Being able to walk or bike to work is a huge plus for those of us who have been able to do this.

5) Finley Market. Good food is back on the menu. America is in the midst of a food revolution. This place will only continue to improve over time. There are foodies that would die to be able to live near this place (once they feel it is safe enough).

6) Rising property values will absolutely draw new investors. This is why it takes so very long. The biggest obstacle to revitalization is getting the first core set of people to pioneer redevelopment. This early period takes a great deal of time, but once enough of the value has been established and people realize they can make money, they'll do it. Unfortunately the rising tax base in the area will also be the chief mechanism for driving out the poor. That is how capitalism works however; not fair, but best land goes to highest bidder.

7) People love NYC. The only place in Cincy where you can feel like you are in NYC living in a brownstone is in OTR.

8) More wealthy landowners will continue to demand a stronger police presence. More of them-more police and a stronger tax base to support this.


There are certainly obstacles, and I don't view anything as inevitable, but there are a great deal of why I'm pretty sure it is going to happen-irrespective of the morality issues of the removal of the poor.

[spazzrico]

People love NYC? Who? Fun to visit ever few years, but people from Cincinnati generally love NYC?!? I don't think that's really the case.

Young people probably like living downtown in a lot of places, but people with kids generally still prefer the burbs.

Yes. They do. To quote my good friend who is a resident of brooklyn, NY. "NYC is an amazing place for kids". I'm not kidding.

I would only suggest you not essentialize all young Cincinnatians as an automatic draw for West Chester or Mason. For a great many people that is the definition of moving to hell. I think you are underestimating the power of young people to think outside the box and reject suburbia. Times are a-changing. I have a friend who lives in OTR right now in one of those condos. She is young, hip, smart and an excellent parent of a toddler & a Xavier grad. People really do want to be there.

[GuyFawkes38]

NYC has a large population of young families in Manhattan/Brooklyn/Queen who are financially capable of living in suburbs but choose to live in the city. NYC has had this group for decades.

But IMHO, this hasn't spread to the rest of the country yet. Lots of young adults are putting off having kids (or not having kids) and that has certainly helped the urban condo boom in midwestern cities like Cincinnati and Chicago. But once young adults do have kids, it seems like they bolt to the suburbs.

Just my opinion. But it doesn't seem like anything has fundamentally changed.

[Founding Father]

Yes. They do. To quote my good friend who is a resident of brooklyn, NY. "NYC is an amazing place for kids". I'm not kidding.

I would only suggest you not essentialize all young Cincinnatians as an automatic draw for West Chester or Mason. For a great many people that is the definition of moving to hell. I think you are underestimating the power of young people to think outside the box and reject suburbia. Times are a-changing. I have a friend who lives in OTR right now in one of those condos. She is young, hip, smart and an excellent parent of a toddler & a Xavier grad. People really do want to be there.

That's great. She'll move soon though. Most do. The numbers show us this. The suburbs happened because most wanted to live there. No one forced them out of the city.

Downtown's population is almost always around 300K. Young new grads and empty nesters move there. Then, these new grads have school age kids, look at CPS and move. The empty nesters either die or go to a nursing home eventually. They are replaced by guess what, new grads and new empty nesters. This is not new.

[Founding Father]

NYC has a large population of young families in Manhattan/Brooklyn/Queen who are financially capable of living in suburbs but choose to live in the city. NYC has had this group for decades.

But IMHO, this hasn't spread to the rest of the country yet. Lots of young adults are putting off having kids (or not having kids) and that has certainly helped the urban condo boom in midwestern cities like Cincinnati and Chicago. But once young adults do have kids, it seems like they bolt to the suburbs.

Just my opinion. But it doesn't seem like anything has fundamentally changed.

I can commute from West Chester (I don't live there) to downtown in 30-40 minutes every day. Those that live in NYC suburbs have 2-3 hour one way commutes each day. Huge difference.

[spazzrico]

That's great. She'll move soon though. Most do. The numbers show us this. The suburbs happened because most wanted to live there. No one forced them out of the city.

Downtown's population is almost always around 300K. Young new grads and empty nesters move there. Then, these new grads have school age kids, look at CPS and move. The empty nesters either die or do to a nursing home eventually. They are replaced by guess what, new grads and new empty nesters. This is not new.

The suburbs also happened because of the incredibly cheap cost of fuel. They were heavily subsidized and made incredibly cheap for people to move. Also Private schools exist, and some good ones are rather close. And sure, some will move, but you are suggesting all people are alike. They are not, and the "creative class" that is attracted to places like this is fundamentally different.

[spazzrico]

I can commute from West Chester (I don't live there) to downtown in 30-40 minutes every day. Those that live in NYC suburbs have 2-3 hour one way commutes each day. Huge difference.

I'm not talking about NYC suburbs. I'm talking about the boroughs where people live AND work. People would salivate over the possibility of living in a brownstone.

[spazzrico]

Yes, your good friend lives in Brooklyn. Not Cincinnati.

I know a guy who lives in Beacon Hill in Boston with his small children. And I know about a hundred people who live in the suburbs of Boston with their small children. Young people are certainly rejecting suburbia....until they get older and stop rejecting it.

But you are suggesting that all people are alike and they aren't. There are enough that don't think like this.....even in Cincinnati.

[Founding Father]

The suburbs also happened because of the incredibly cheap cost of fuel. They were heavily subsidized and made incredibly cheap for people to move. Also Private schools exist, and some good ones are rather close. And sure, some will move, but you are suggesting all people are alike. They are not, and the "creative class" that is attracted to places like this is fundamentally different.

There is no such thing as a "creative class". Second, the majority that have lived here over the last 4 decades do exactly what I described and it won't change with some new condos and a cleaned up park in OTR. Not everyone is how I characterized them but MOST are.

Also, you missed my point above about the commuting times but that's okay.

[GoMuskies]

Not all people are alike. Enough are.

[Kahns Krazy]

That's great. She'll move soon though. Most do. The numbers show us this. The suburbs happened because most wanted to live there. No one forced them out of the city.

Downtown's population is almost always around 300K. Young new grads and empty nesters move there. Then, these new grads have school age kids, look at CPS and move. The empty nesters either die or go to a nursing home eventually. They are replaced by guess what, new grads and new empty nesters. This is not new.

You are smoking some serious crack. Why do you even get into a discussion that you are so woefully uninformed about?

[Founding Father]

You are smoking some serious crack. Why do you even get into a discussion that you are so woefully uninformed about?

Do you have numbers and statistics that differ from what I said?

[GuyFawkes38]

The suburbs also happened because of the incredibly cheap cost of fuel. They were heavily subsidized and made incredibly cheap for people to move. Also Private schools exist, and some good ones are rather close. And sure, some will move, but you are suggesting all people are alike. They are not, and the "creative class" that is attracted to places like this is fundamentally different.

This is silly. I'm not sure what you mean by the "creative class" (maybe you mean artists or writers or something....). But most professionals (IT workers, lawyers, consultants, doctors, engineers, etc...) above the age of 30 have families and live in the suburbs. I can't help but to roll my eyes when I hear about the urban "creative class".

I definitely appreciate anyone who lives in an urban community that are assisting with its revival. But the suburbs are still filled with talented, bright, dynamic and even "creative" people.

[Founding Father]

http://www.urbancincy.com/2011/03/cincinnati-loses-10-4-of-its-population-over-past-decade-according-to-census-bureau/

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2012/04/cincinnati-population-shrinking-but.html

[boozehound]

Not all people are alike. Enough are.

Yep. People generally compete for things because there are universal things that enough people want that they are in scarce demand.

Here's the thing I don't get about building more condos downtown - it seems like most of the people I know who live in condo's downtown (admittedly a small sample size) have at least one unit in the building that has never sold. I have a friend who lives in the McAlpin across from tower place mall. That place has been there for several years and I am about 80% sure that they still have at least one condo that nobody has ever bought. Those condos are like $300K+ though, so perhaps if the OTR condos are closer to $100K-$150K then they could lure some of the people who may have otherwise moved to Northside.

The point that someone made about fuel costs is interesting though. I have long thought that if high fuel costs persist I would think that could be a significant factor for people who live in Mason, West Chester, Liberty Township, etc. and commute downtown. I wonder if we could see an increased appeal to areas like Anderson Township, Norwood or Delhi that offer suburban living with close proximity to downtown. It could even help areas like Price Hill and Westwood if they can ever reclaim them (I'm not sure how possible that is at this point). It definitely would add appeal to living downtown, but I think a lot of people would still have a hard time giving up things like a multi-story house with a yard.

[Kahns Krazy]

http://www.urbancincy.com/2011/03/cincinnati-loses-10-4-of-its-population-over-past-decade-according-to-census-bureau/

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2012/04/cincinnati-population-shrinking-but.html

Thank you for proving my point. Those numbers are for the whole city. Do you count Mt. Washington as downtown? The downtown population is approximately 10-15K, depending on how far out you extend your count.

[Founding Father]

Thank you for proving my point. Those numbers are for the whole city. Do you count Mt. Washington as downtown? The downtown population is approximately 10-15K, depending on how far out you extend your count.

I was talking about Cincinnati but whatever. Point is, population stays around 300K. People simply move around the area during stages of their lives but few relocate to Cincinnati for anything other than a job. Just as many move out for the same reason.

[Kahns Krazy]

It definitely would add appeal to living downtown, but I think a lot of people would still have a hard time giving up things like a multi-story house with a yard.

As long as you continue to look at the future population of Cincinnati as being exactly the same as the current population, only moved around, it will never make sense. There are obviously millions and millions of people who don't need a multi-story house or a yard, otherwise Chicago and New York wouldn't exist.

[theleague]

Wow, do we have people on this thread thinking that revitalizing the urban core, increasing population, building new towers, and creating a better environment to live in is a bad idea. Start-up companies and companies looking to relocate want to go to a place that will attract young, top talet. What do young talented people prefer; to go to bars, live in an urban setting, and not get a DUI. They do not dream about living in West Chester. I love Cincinnati, but there is some ass backwards thinking going on here.

[Founding Father]

Wow, do we have people on this thread thinking that revitalizing the urban core, increasing population, building new towers, and creating a better environment to live in is a bad idea. Start-up companies and companies looking to relocate want to go to a place that will attract young, top talet. What do young talented people prefer; to go to bars, live in an urban setting, and not get a DUI. They do not dream about living in West Chester. I love Cincinnati, but there is some ass backwards thinking going on here.

No one says its a bad idea. Its an old idea - I hope you realize that. It is an idea that they have been attempting to pull off for 4 decades. People move out of the urban core when they have school aged children in Cincinnati. This will continue to happen for some time.

Those companies looking to relocate only relocate from a few miles away. No big time companies are relocating to Cincinnati from outside the region.

[spazzrico]

This is silly. I'm not sure what you mean by the "creative class" (maybe you mean artists or writers or something....). But most professionals (IT workers, lawyers, consultants, doctors, engineers, etc...) above the age of 30 have families and live in the suburbs. I can't help but to roll my eyes when I hear about the urban "creative class".

I definitely appreciate anyone who lives in an urban community that are assisting with its revival. But the suburbs are still filled with talented, bright, dynamic and even "creative" people.

No, the "Creative Class" (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0205.florida.html) is an idea conceptualized by Richard Florida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_class) and includes the very people you describe, not just artists. I don't at all deny creative people live in the burbs too. BTW I believe Florida's idea of the CC is a bit overblown and involves some circular logic, but I still know that the kind of people he is describe that are the drivers of economic growth include a subset that highly value a place like OTR.

[boozehound]

As long as you continue to look at the future population of Cincinnati as being exactly the same as the current population, only moved around, it will never make sense. There are obviously millions and millions of people who don't need a multi-story house or a yard, otherwise Chicago and New York wouldn't exist.

I see your point, but I also don't know that Cincinnati will ever be like Chicago or New York so I'm not sure if you can draw comparisons between the two. Chicago and New York are both huge cities in which you have to endure a long commute to live in the suburbs if you work downtown. New York and Chicago don't have affordable, safe, suburban areas within 5-10 miles of the major downtown job centers.

I was talking to a guy (only 1 guy though so he may be an outlier) who worked in investment banking in Manhattan and lived in New Jersey because he wanted a house and a yard. His commute was like 1.5-2 hours each way. He was considering moving to the city, even though he didn't want to live in the city, to get to spend an extra 2-3 hours per day with his kids.

People in Cincinnati don't have to make the same choices that people in NYC or Chicago have to make. They don't necessarily need a multi-story house and a yard, but if they can get that with a 15-20 minute commute to downtown I believe that it will continue to be a good value proposition to a great many people.

[drudy23]

Even if they do succeed in 'revitalizing' OTR it is just going to come at the expense of some other neighborhood. They aren't fixing the problem (poverty) they are just spreading it around. That way instead of having one concentrated area of high crime (OTR) that is easy to avoid we have pockets throughout the city. Ask Memphis how that worked out.

Exactly...the number one reason for the decline of the West Side in the last 10 years. No one will admit it, but it's obvious.

[TheRunningMan]

No one says its a bad idea. Its an old idea - I hope you realize that. It is an idea that they have been attempting to pull off for 4 decades. People move out of the urban core when they have school aged children in Cincinnati. This will continue to happen for some time.

Those companies looking to relocate only relocate from a few miles away. No big time companies are relocating to Cincinnati from outside the region.

It's an old idea with a new generation. I for one love it down there. It's where most YP's want to move and it's where they hang out. It has the best food/bars in the city. Taste of Belgium=Waffle and Chicken (best hangover dish ever), A Tavola= Best Pizza, Senate=Best Hot Dog, etc.

The people with kids move out of the urban core yes, that doesn't mean they don't want to hang out down there. In addition, the generation today thinks a little bit differently. They don't like driving to work, they wait to get married, they wait to have kids. You know how you re-vitalize a downtown? you get 22-30 yr olds with disposable income to move down there and go out. My friends and I hang out down there religiously on Friday or Saturday night and when we are out we always run into people from school that hangout down there as well.

Personally, I just started looking for condos in the area and they are impossible to find anymore. They are all bought up. So now I am waiting for the Washington Park development to be completed. That's not to say there is a lot of work to be done still but I think that 'old idea' might finally work.

[Founding Father]

It's an old idea with a new generation. I for one love it down there. It's where most YP's want to move and it's where they hang out. It has the best food/bars in the city. Taste of Belgium=Waffle and Chicken (best hangover dish ever), A Tavola= Best Pizza, Senate=Best Hot Dog, etc.

The people with kids move out of the urban core yes, that doesn't mean they don't want to hang out down there. In addition, the generation today thinks a little bit differently. They don't like driving to work, they wait to get married, they wait to have kids. You know how you re-vitalize a downtown? you get 22-30 yr olds with disposable income to move down there and go out. My friends and I hang out down there religiously on Friday or Saturday night and when we are out we always run into people from school that hangout down there as well.

Personally, I just started looking for condos in the area and they are impossible to find anymore. They are all bought up. So now I am waiting for the Washington Park development to be completed. That's not to say there is a lot of work to be done still but I think that 'old idea' might finally work.

You just think that is the case. Each generation that has tried this OLD idea thinks because they are the "new generation" that this time it will be different.

Look at the numbers over the last 40 years. You will continue to see this cycle of early 20 somethings moving downtown and to OTR then moving away when they have kids starting school. You will also see empty nesters return to downtown.

On the "creative class":

Numerous studies have found fault with the logic or empirical claims of the Creative Class theory. Hoyman and Faricy (2009), using Florida’s own indices, find no statistical evidence that cities with higher proportions of Creative Class workers correlated with any type of economic growth from 1990–2004. In "Urban Development and the Politics of the Creative Class", Ann Markusen (2006) argues that workers qualified as being in the Creative Class have no concept of group identity, nor are they in occupations that are inherently creative. Markusen also notes that the definition of the Creative Class is based largely on educational attainment, suggesting that Florida’s indices become insignificant after controlling for education (p. 1923). Jamie Peck's (2005) "Struggling with the Creative Class" argues that the Creative Class theory offers no causal mechanism and suffers from circular logic. John Montgomery (2005) writes that “what Florida has devised is a set of indices which simply mirror more fundamental truths about creative milieux or dynamic cities” (p. 339).

[xudash]

I see your point, but I also don't know that Cincinnati will ever be like Chicago or New York so I'm not sure if you can draw comparisons between the two. Chicago and New York are both huge cities in which you have to endure a long commute to live in the suburbs if you work downtown. New York and Chicago don't have affordable, safe, suburban areas within 5-10 miles of the major downtown job centers.

I was talking to a guy (only 1 guy though so he may be an outlier) who worked in investment banking in Manhattan and lived in New Jersey because he wanted a house and a yard. His commute was like 1.5-2 hours each way. He was considering moving to the city, even though he didn't want to live in the city, to get to spend an extra 2-3 hours per day with his kids.

People in Cincinnati don't have to make the same choices that people in NYC or Chicago have to make. They don't necessarily need a multi-story house and a yard, but if they can get that with a 15-20 minute commute to downtown I believe that it will continue to be a good value proposition to a great many people.

I used to make that commute from Fairfield, CT on the Metro North Train to Grand Central. About 2 hours each way. You're well read on the way in and frequently in the bar car on the way home. I was lucky in my case, because I also could work from offices in Westport, which was about a 15 minute drive for me. So I wasn't going in every day like most there did, which, to your point, amplified how much a commute like that could ware you down if you had to do it every business day of the week.

Of course, the people that grew up there and with all that were much more accustomed to it, though you would hear grumbling from them from time to time a well.

Cincinnati is Cincinnati. Regardless of what is going on in MSA's Numbers 1 and 2, it still would be good for Cincinnati to develop a dynamic greater downtown atmosphere, especially given some of the interesting demographic ideas spazzrico shared above. Keeping young, educated people, incubating start-ups, etc. If Cincinnati were to drive itself there it would end up with a lot of talent, energy and money.

Finally, LadyMuskie made a fair response to my earlier post, about the fact that inner-city development and addressing poverty are not mutually exclusive activities. The problem there as I see it is that it would seem a lot easier to reclaim, invest and develop than to fix something that is virtually structural at this point and certainly generational. We'll probably never fully fix drugs and poverty, but any progress made will be made through putting constructive resources against some of the current generation, with an eye towards saving as many from the next generation and so on.

[boozehound]

The more I think about it, I don't think we necessarily need families to start flocking downtown in this city. The population aging will create a lot of emtpy-nesters over the next 10-20 years. If downtown living appeals to the Young Professionals and older people with grown children that is more than enough people to have a vibrant downtown. People can live downtown when they are young, move to the suburbs (if they want to) when they have kids, and then move back downtown when the kids are out of the house.

I am definitely in favor of a strong downtown area. Part of me wants to just leave the crime in OTR because it is already there (and because I don't want it moving near me), but I also understand the desire to develop that area. If downtown Condos are all sold and the demand still exists moving North toward OTR is really the only option for continued development.

My initial response to this thread was pretty cynical (if somewhat accurate) and was not intended to be an argument against continued development of downtown. I feel quite the opposite.

[Smails]

Question for the conversation: In Cincinnati, where does city living stop and suburb living start...geographically. Is it school district? I live in Wyoming, which is about 11 miles NW of downtown. It takes me less than 12 minutes to get downtown, so I don't really feel like I'm in the 'burbs'...but then again, I don't pay city taxes and Wyoming has it's own school district. Hyde Park is part of the city tax system, but is it technically a suburb of Cincinnati?

Always wondered where it stopped and started...in common usage

[drudy23]

Families are never going to live downtown...period. Why would they?

There, I just summed it up.

[spazzrico]

On the "creative class":

Jamie Peck's (2005) "Struggling with the Creative Class" argues that the Creative Class theory offers no causal mechanism and suffers from circular logic. John Montgomery (2005) writes that “what Florida has devised is a set of indices which simply mirror more fundamental truths about creative milieux or dynamic cities” (p. 339).

Pretty much mirrors my critique of the creative class concept as written earlier. Jamie Peck is the man btw. He's been incredibly nice to me in my working life.

[spazzrico]

The more I think about it, I don't think we necessarily need families to start flocking downtown in this city. The population aging will create a lot of emtpy-nesters over the next 10-20 years. If downtown living appeals to the Young Professionals and older people with grown children that is more than enough people to have a vibrant downtown. People can live downtown when they are young, move to the suburbs (if they want to) when they have kids, and then move back downtown when the kids are out of the house.


Agreed, the whole children or not argument is really just an aside. OTR's redevelopment will happen either way.

[Founding Father]

Agreed, the whole children or not argument is really just an aside. OTR's redevelopment will happen either way.

Not really. It shows why people leave that area and why the population really does not grow despite the development. It simply shifts.

[boozehound]

Not really. It shows why people leave that area and why the population really does not grow despite the development. It simply shifts.

...but if the demographics shift (which is happening right now) to where there are fewer familes it would be very possible for the area to grow.

[Kahns Krazy]

No one says its a bad idea. Its an old idea - I hope you realize that. It is an idea that they have been attempting to pull off for 4 decades. People move out of the urban core when they have school aged children in Cincinnati. This will continue to happen for some time.

Those companies looking to relocate only relocate from a few miles away. No big time companies are relocating to Cincinnati from outside the region.

This is just not true. Nobody with a life plan to get married and have a family and move to the suburbs has lived in our urban core for 50 years. If you are continuing to lump Mt. Lookout and Mt. Adams into the urban core, you are using different terminology than anyone else in this thread.

Having young childless professionals in the urban core until they have school age children sounds like an awesome goal to me, but we certainly aren't there today, and I really don't think you could find a time when that was ever true.

[Kahns Krazy]

Look at the numbers over the last 40 years. You will continue to see this cycle of early 20 somethings moving downtown and to OTR then moving away when they have kids starting school. You will also see empty nesters return to downtown.
).

There is no possible way you can support this argument. It could not be more false. I don't understand what possible reason you would have for fabricating this statement, but I don't think anyone will believe you.

[Kahns Krazy]

Those companies looking to relocate only relocate from a few miles away. No big time companies are relocating to Cincinnati from outside the region.

Dunhumby has been "relocating" jobs to Cincinnati at a very impressive rate. Omnicare will be consolidating corporate headquarters including moving jobs in from outside the region. Big time companies relocate very rarely, but adding new jobs is as beneficial, if not more so, than companies relocating.

Dunnhumby expects to hit 1,000 local employees by 2014, ten years after forming here. Omnicare expects to employ 500 at their downtown headquarters, up from 200 in the region 10 years ago. These are big time companies moving jobs here from outside the region.

Why are you so intent on painting a negative picture of the obvious progress in the downtown area?

[Roach]

The more I think about it, I don't think we necessarily need families to start flocking downtown in this city. The population aging will create a lot of emtpy-nesters over the next 10-20 years. If downtown living appeals to the Young Professionals and older people with grown children that is more than enough people to have a vibrant downtown. People can live downtown when they are young, move to the suburbs (if they want to) when they have kids, and then move back downtown when the kids are out of the house.

Studies in Population Economics strongly suggest that this is quite true. Depopulation has a generally negative effect on suburban areas which can, to a degree, promote population growth in urban areas. Facing dwindling numbers, populations tend to concentrate in city centers. This has been seen, to some extent, in France, Italy, Spain, Germany, and Japan. Small towns and their corresponding micro-economies experience some level of economic hardship, but given their higher birthrates to begin with, they most stay the same size. It's interesting stuff. Basically, if Ohio starts experiencing considerable depopulation, you can expect Cincinnati's suburbs to shrink and its city limits to experience some growth.

[Founding Father]

There is no possible way you can support this argument. It could not be more false. I don't understand what possible reason you would have for fabricating this statement, but I don't think anyone will believe you.

Can you dispute it?

[Founding Father]

Dunhumby has been "relocating" jobs to Cincinnati at a very impressive rate. Omnicare will be consolidating corporate headquarters including moving jobs in from outside the region. Big time companies relocate very rarely, but adding new jobs is as beneficial, if not more so, than companies relocating.

Dunnhumby expects to hit 1,000 local employees by 2014, ten years after forming here. Omnicare expects to employ 500 at their downtown headquarters, up from 200 in the region 10 years ago. These are big time companies moving jobs here from outside the region.

Why are you so intent on painting a negative picture of the obvious progress in the downtown area?

Dunhunby is already downtown and Omnicare is right across the river. Those don't count.

[Founding Father]

This is just not true. Nobody with a life plan to get married and have a family and move to the suburbs has lived in our urban core for 50 years. If you are continuing to lump Mt. Lookout and Mt. Adams into the urban core, you are using different terminology than anyone else in this thread.

Having young childless professionals in the urban core until they have school age children sounds like an awesome goal to me, but we certainly aren't there today, and I really don't think you could find a time when that was ever true.

Actually it is very much true.

[Founding Father]

For the record, I am very happy with the progress downtown and in OTR. I think 3CDC has done a tremendous job revitalizing the city and I'm not against the private build up of OTR.

That does not mean that these places are going to grow in population or attact young professionals from other cities. It simply has not happened and doesn't look like it will.

OTR and downtown will see young professionals consistently living there along side empty nesters. Those young professionals only live there for so long though and move away as studies have shown. They are replaced by the next generation of new college grads but the area does not really grow in population. It maintains or loses population almost every year.

[Kahns Krazy]

Can you dispute it?

I can. I can look up the demographics of the downtown and OTR residents for the last 40 years and look up the demographics of the suburban areas for those same times and prove, factually, that unless people are also changing races when they move to the suburbs, it is not physically possible for the scenario you describe taking place.

[Founding Father]

I can. I can look up the demographics of the downtown and OTR residents for the last 40 years and look up the demographics of the suburban areas for those same times and prove, factually, that unless people are also changing races when they move to the suburbs, it is not physically possible for the scenario you describe taking place.

No..you can't. I described a scenario that those that live downtown and in OTR eventually leave when they have school age children out of those areas. It has been happening for 40 years.

[Kahns Krazy]

No..you can't. I described a scenario that those that live downtown and in OTR eventually leave when they have school age children out of those areas. It has been happening for 40 years.

I am always so amused when LH exposes his alter egos. This has been covered. Enjoy your bannination.

[Kahns Krazy]

OTR and downtown will see young professionals consistently living there along side empty nesters. Those young professionals only live there for so long though and move away as studies have shown. They are replaced by the next generation of new college grads but the area does not really grow in population. It maintains or loses population almost every year.

One more for the road:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_U72QTDcNpU0/S97oKhYs2JI/AAAAAAAACWg/f278Z-O4dsw/s1600/Downtown+Cincinnati+Population+Growth.JPG

[Founding Father]

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2012/04/cincinnati-population-shrinking-but.html

[LadyMuskie]

2) People want to live in cities again, and realize that they provide for an amazing life. This is a country-wide trend.

3) People crave old/historical/unique architecture. These places became ultra rare in the U.S. due to horribly conceived urban renewal plans. We leveled so many of these areas. Scarcity breeds value. It's ironic that OTR basically was preserved due to its poverty and white flight driving so much investment to the burbs. The bones of these buildings hold a great deal of value and capitalists view them as vehicles for investment.

4) Rising fuel costs. People do still work downtown. Being able to walk or bike to work is a huge plus for those of us who have been able to do this.

5) Finley Market. Good food is back on the menu. America is in the midst of a food revolution. This place will only continue to improve over time. There are foodies that would die to be able to live near this place (once they feel it is safe enough).

6) Rising property values will absolutely draw new investors. This is why it takes so very long. The biggest obstacle to revitalization is getting the first core set of people to pioneer redevelopment. This early period takes a great deal of time, but once enough of the value has been established and people realize they can make money, they'll do it. Unfortunately the rising tax base in the area will also be the chief mechanism for driving out the poor. That is how capitalism works however; not fair, but best land goes to highest bidder.

7) People love NYC. The only place in Cincy where you can feel like you are in NYC living in a brownstone is in OTR.

8) More wealthy landowners will continue to demand a stronger police presence. More of them-more police and a stronger tax base to support this.


There are certainly obstacles, and I don't view anything as inevitable, but there are a great deal of why I'm pretty sure it is going to happen-irrespective of the morality issues of the removal of the poor.

I'll try to address your points as best I can.

As to your #2 - for every person who you have that wants to live in the city, I can find a person who wants to live in the country or the suburbs. Just looking at my FB friends list, about 10 out of the 300 live in a truly urban area, although none of those 10 live in downtown Cincinnati or OTR. 6 live in Chicago, 1 lives in Columbus, Ohio and the other 3 live in Brooklyn. All of them are childless and most are unmarried. The rest of my friends consists of suburbanites or people who live way the hell out in east bufu. I was shocked when I reconnected with people I went with to high school or Xavier and they were found to be living in places where their closest neighbor was at least a mile away. I could never do that, but they love it, and more and more of my friends desire that kind of living. Going hand in hand with the push for fresh food from places like Findlay is an ever-growing desire to have your own land to grow vegetables, raise chickens, etc.

As to your #3 - I live in a Cincinnati neighborhood where the architecture is not only historic, it is preserved and lovingly cared for. My home is 167 years old and we have uncovered a space in our basement where we think runaway slaves hid on their way up north. My friend down the street lives in a home that was once the house on a dairy farm, and it has a hidden room where runaway slaves hid for sure.

My next door neighbor's house is an historic Craftsman style. The house at the end of the street was built in 1870 and was once owned by the mayor of the town (before it was annexed by the City). A former judge from here in the City lives in a home that was once owned by a riverboat captain and it was built right after the Civil War. We have our own historical society (which has produced books about our community) and people in our community who are dedicated to preserving our history and the history of our buildings (including an old Kroger grocery store opened originally by Barney Kroger and then run by one of his good friends and one of our neighborhood's oldest families.)

So, you get the idea. We aren't alone. Cincinnati's neighborhoods are chalk full of historic homes and buildings once owned by wealthy magnates. Westwood, Price Hill, Clifton, Mt. Auburn, Northside, Hyde Park, Mt. Adams, Avondale, etc. all boast beautiful historic homes with histories to tell. OTR does not have the corner market on historic buildings in this city. If you think that, then you need to visit and study the histories of Cincinnati's neighborhoods more. (I won't even get into the historic and gorgeous properties lining the streets of Covington and Newport!)

As to #4 - If you live inside the City of Cincinnati, then you are either on or within walking distance of a Metro bus line. Of the friends I mentioned above who live in Chicago and New York, none of them bike to work. They all take the subway if for no other reason than none of them want to go to work smelling like they just biked to work.


As to #5 - I love Findlay Market. I try to go at least once a month in the winter months. In the spring, summer and fall, however, my neighborhood hosts its own market once a week where some vendors from Findlay come to us. Plus, we have local farmers, artists, etc. all coming too to sell their stuff. Each year our market gets a little bit bigger and the scores of people it draws is pretty amazing. I agree people are desperate for fresh, good food, but Findlay isn't the only place you can find it.

In addition, we have an amazing selection of really great butchers on the west side. Bridgetown Finer Meats lives up to its name and I've gotten better cuts of meat there than I have at Findlay. There is a butcher even closer to where I live, who my husband and I love to frequent because he has quality cuts of meat and shares old world German recipes with us. And, I know several of my friends who live in the West Chester and Mason areas go to various farms up there where they get fresh produce, fresh honey, etc.

So, if you know what you're doing, you don't have to go to Findlay just to find good ingredients in this city.

As to #6 - You're correct, but until you get to that point and prove that it is stable, you're not going to get the big money in. You're not going to get people living in nice big homes in Hyde Park and/or Mt. Adams to move to OTR until you can sustain for some time the viability that OTR is safe and values are not going to collapse.

as to #7 - I don't know anyone who wants to live in NYC who isn't already living there. As Go pointed out, the people who love NYC live there, and the rest of us think it's a nice place to visit.

as to #8 - I'm not sure how much wealth you think is going to move into OTR, but I can almost guarantee you that the truly wealthy who are currently residing in Indian Hill, for example, are not going to trade what they have there for anything in OTR. I'm a stay at home mom, but my husband makes a nice amount of money (although we're not wealthy by our standards) and I wouldn't trade what I have now for anything in OTR. There are many upper middle class citizens living in Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, Mt. Adams and elsewhere within the city limits. OTR will draw some new people, but if the condos are selling for $150,000 and you're living next to or on top of a bar, that kind of living wears out quickly. A doctor bringing home $400,000 a year is not going to live in a $150,000 condo.

And, it's great to say you want to raise a child in OTR, until you bring baby home from the hospital, are desperate for a good night's sleep and the music from the club you previously found amazing is still blaring at 2 am and drunk people are making a lot of noise outside your window at the same hour, meaning that baby is not sleeping so neither are you. I love it when people without children tell us how great their life will be when they do have children and how everything will go according to their life-long plans. I was like that once too. Until you have a child, don't pretend that you have any clue what it will be like. The minute that baby comes home with you, all bets are off. My husband and I thought we had it all figured out too, but nothing changes your world faster than having a helpless little person whom you adore looking to you for love, shelter and security.

Maybe OTR will be a big hit, but it still has a long way to go before it gets there and people are going to have to be willing to put up with, not only the wait, but all the other stuff that will come along with the wait. While it would be great to see the city turn it around, I'm not yet sold on the idea that it can or it will. I hope I'm wrong, but the people who run this city are so busy worrying about the words to a new city song, for example, that they're not focusing on the real problems we're facing. Until that happens, until real focus and attention is paid to some very serious issues, redeveloping some buildings is going to be about as effective is throwing a thimble of water on a bonfire.

As a city resident, I want nothing more than to see Cincinnati turn the tide and become a vibrant, active, city like it was in its heyday. I just don't think the route to go is to sacrifice existing neighborhoods to try to revitalize one neighborhood, and then act as though it isn't a big deal. As I mentioned before, in about 20-50 years, young people are going to shout from the rooftops that Westwood needs the kind of revitalization and house-cleaning that OTR is getting now. We're essentially robbing Peter to pay Paul right now, and that never works out in the long run. Never.

[xavierly]

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2012/04/cincinnati-population-shrinking-but.html

Do you understand that you're referencing a population statistic that spans from Mt. Washington to Hyde Park & Madisonville up to the border of Reading and over to Cheviot on the westside?

People here are talking about the huge change in demographics over the last half decade in a very small sliver (Central Business District and OTR) of that area that is fundamentally unique from the majority of the area you are referencing.

[Founding Father]

Do you understand that you're referencing a population statistic that spans from Mt. Washington to Hyde Park & Madisonville up to the border of Reading and over to Cheviot on the westside?

People here are talking about the huge change in demographics over the last half decade in a very small sliver (Central Business District and OTR) of that area that is fundamentally unique from the majority of the area you are referencing.

Do you understand that the population has not increased in Cincinnati. That means that people are simply shifting around like I said. Robbing Peter to pay Paul like LM said above.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I can. I can look up the demographics of the downtown and OTR residents for the last 40 years and look up the demographics of the suburban areas for those same times and prove, factually, that unless people are also changing races when they move to the suburbs, it is not physically possible for the scenario you describe taking place.


No..you can't. I described a scenario that those that live downtown and in OTR eventually leave when they have school age children out of those areas. It has been happening for 40 years.


I am always so amused when LH exposes his alter egos. This has been covered. Enjoy your bannination.


One more for the road:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_U72QTDcNpU0/S97oKhYs2JI/AAAAAAAACWg/f278Z-O4dsw/s1600/Downtown+Cincinnati+Population+Growth.JPG

Nice try _LH.

Things _LH was wrong about:

-2008 Cincinnati elections
-2011 Cincinnati elections
-Mark McGwire using steroids
-Ken Griffey Jr not using steroids
-Saying you only have 1 screen name


Congratulations _LH, you may have just become the first regular poster in Xavier Hoops history to be diagnosed with all four Troll Category characteristics:

http://www.xavierhoops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21322

[spazzrico]

I'll try to address your points as best I can.

As to your #2 - for every person who you have that wants to live in the city, I can find a person who wants to live in the country or the suburbs. Just looking at my FB friends list, about 10 out of the 300 live in a truly urban area, although none of those 10 live in downtown Cincinnati or OTR. 6 live in Chicago, 1 lives in Columbus, Ohio and the other 3 live in Brooklyn. All of them are childless and most are unmarried. The rest of my friends consists of suburbanites or people who live way the hell out in east bufu. I was shocked when I reconnected with people I went with to high school or Xavier and they were found to be living in places where their closest neighbor was at least a mile away. I could never do that, but they love it, and more and more of my friends desire that kind of living. Going hand in hand with the push for fresh food from places like Findlay is an ever-growing desire to have your own land to grow vegetables, raise chickens, etc.

As to your #3 - I live in a Cincinnati neighborhood where the architecture is not only historic, it is preserved and lovingly cared for. My home is 167 years old and we have uncovered a space in our basement where we think runaway slaves hid on their way up north. My friend down the street lives in a home that was once the house on a dairy farm, and it has a hidden room where runaway slaves hid for sure.

My next door neighbor's house is an historic Craftsman style. The house at the end of the street was built in 1870 and was once owned by the mayor of the town (before it was annexed by the City). A former judge from here in the City lives in a home that was once owned by a riverboat captain and it was built right after the Civil War. We have our own historical society (which has produced books about our community) and people in our community who are dedicated to preserving our history and the history of our buildings (including an old Kroger grocery store opened originally by Barney Kroger and then run by one of his good friends and one of our neighborhood's oldest families.)

So, you get the idea. We aren't alone. Cincinnati's neighborhoods are chalk full of historic homes and buildings once owned by wealthy magnates. Westwood, Price Hill, Clifton, Mt. Auburn, Northside, Hyde Park, Mt. Adams, Avondale, etc. all boast beautiful historic homes with histories to tell. OTR does not have the corner market on historic buildings in this city. If you think that, then you need to visit and study the histories of Cincinnati's neighborhoods more. (I won't even get into the historic and gorgeous properties lining the streets of Covington and Newport!)

As to #4 - If you live inside the City of Cincinnati, then you are either on or within walking distance of a Metro bus line. Of the friends I mentioned above who live in Chicago and New York, none of them bike to work. They all take the subway if for no other reason than none of them want to go to work smelling like they just biked to work.


As to #5 - I love Findlay Market. I try to go at least once a month in the winter months. In the spring, summer and fall, however, my neighborhood hosts its own market once a week where some vendors from Findlay come to us. Plus, we have local farmers, artists, etc. all coming too to sell their stuff. Each year our market gets a little bit bigger and the scores of people it draws is pretty amazing. I agree people are desperate for fresh, good food, but Findlay isn't the only place you can find it.

In addition, we have an amazing selection of really great butchers on the west side. Bridgetown Finer Meats lives up to its name and I've gotten better cuts of meat there than I have at Findlay. There is a butcher even closer to where I live, who my husband and I love to frequent because he has quality cuts of meat and shares old world German recipes with us. And, I know several of my friends who live in the West Chester and Mason areas go to various farms up there where they get fresh produce, fresh honey, etc.

So, if you know what you're doing, you don't have to go to Findlay just to find good ingredients in this city.

As to #6 - You're correct, but until you get to that point and prove that it is stable, you're not going to get the big money in. You're not going to get people living in nice big homes in Hyde Park and/or Mt. Adams to move to OTR until you can sustain for some time the viability that OTR is safe and values are not going to collapse.

as to #7 - I don't know anyone who wants to live in NYC who isn't already living there. As Go pointed out, the people who love NYC live there, and the rest of us think it's a nice place to visit.

as to #8 - I'm not sure how much wealth you think is going to move into OTR, but I can almost guarantee you that the truly wealthy who are currently residing in Indian Hill, for example, are not going to trade what they have there for anything in OTR. I'm a stay at home mom, but my husband makes a nice amount of money (although we're not wealthy by our standards) and I wouldn't trade what I have now for anything in OTR. There are many upper middle class citizens living in Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, Mt. Adams and elsewhere within the city limits. OTR will draw some new people, but if the condos are selling for $150,000 and you're living next to or on top of a bar, that kind of living wears out quickly. A doctor bringing home $400,000 a year is not going to live in a $150,000 condo.

And, it's great to say you want to raise a child in OTR, until you bring baby home from the hospital, are desperate for a good night's sleep and the music from the club you previously found amazing is still blaring at 2 am and drunk people are making a lot of noise outside your window at the same hour, meaning that baby is not sleeping so neither are you. I love it when people without children tell us how great their life will be when they do have children and how everything will go according to their life-long plans. I was like that once too. Until you have a child, don't pretend that you have any clue what it will be like. The minute that baby comes home with you, all bets are off. My husband and I thought we had it all figured out too, but nothing changes your world faster than having a helpless little person whom you adore looking to you for love, shelter and security.

Maybe OTR will be a big hit, but it still has a long way to go before it gets there and people are going to have to be willing to put up with, not only the wait, but all the other stuff that will come along with the wait. While it would be great to see the city turn it around, I'm not yet sold on the idea that it can or it will. I hope I'm wrong, but the people who run this city are so busy worrying about the words to a new city song, for example, that they're not focusing on the real problems we're facing. Until that happens, until real focus and attention is paid to some very serious issues, redeveloping some buildings is going to be about as effective is throwing a thimble of water on a bonfire.

As a city resident, I want nothing more than to see Cincinnati turn the tide and become a vibrant, active, city like it was in its heyday. I just don't think the route to go is to sacrifice existing neighborhoods to try to revitalize one neighborhood, and then act as though it isn't a big deal. As I mentioned before, in about 20-50 years, young people are going to shout from the rooftops that Westwood needs the kind of revitalization and house-cleaning that OTR is getting now. We're essentially robbing Peter to pay Paul right now, and that never works out in the long run. Never.

Rebuttals:
#2 Well we all have examples of personal friends and each person is different. But the overall trends across the country are that people are re-embracing downtown environments. I can't really argue with what you say here, but I don't see any real disagreement with what I said. I would simply say there are plenty of people that now do embrace a downtown lifestyle.

#3: I agree those are nice and historic areas, but they aren't mutually exclusive. OTR has an absolutely special character to it that is in line with those places, but also different. It's location alone makes it special...right next to the CBD. That is something qualitatively different.

#4: But Cincy is so small, biking really isn't necessary if you live in OTR. A walk is fine really.

#5 But Finley is one place you CAN find it, and it's neato. People like that.

[spazzrico]

#6: True, but I would argue that right now we are getting close to a tipping point. I certainly agree it doesn't happen over night. But I would bet a significant amount of money that OTR is going to have taken major strides in the next 20 years. Will every building be rehabbed? Probably not even then, but I'm willing to bet a huge proportion of it will be.

#7: That's just it. OTR would feel reminiscent of the Village but in Cincinnati! You get to live in a place like that (sort of) but at a fraction of the cost and without the ginormous city to deal with around you. And that is why it will be special. And BTW, I want to live in NYC but I don't live there. Not in the cards unfortunately.

#8: I have an 18 month old. I'm well aware of life changes. Hey, my friend who lives down there is expecting her second at the end of the month. I guess she feels secure enough. And in any case, I do view her as an anomaly, but not forever. I agree that it will take time for families to view it as a suitable place. But with time it will change and I can totally picture families down there as well. Not every street will feature a club or pub crawl district. And there are plenty of wealthy people to go around, especially if Cincy is able to attract jobs. New money won't require pulling capital from Indian Hill.

I can't speak to the issues with the other neighborhoods. I really don't see why the city has to neglect Westwood or anywhere else simply because OTR is developing. Poor people being dislocated to these places is another issue. I'm not a fan of pushing out poor people. But I do see it happening.

I don't have any fundamental disagreement on many of your points, but I just see the end result as different when it comes to how things will shake out for OTR.

[xavierly]

Do you understand that the population has not increased in Cincinnati. That means that people are simply shifting around like I said. Robbing Peter to pay Paul like LM said above.

I get what you're arguement is and its basically logic based on faulty semantics. If anything you're statistics only strenghten the arguement people are making on this thread

'Downtown' Cincinnati is a large area that's mostly suburbs. There distinction being made is population isn't shifting between suburbs, its shifting from suburbs to the urban core, which is pretty unprecedented in Cincinnati.

A population shift from Cheviot to Lockland or Clifton Gaslight to Oakley is 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' in that it doesn't really change the status quo of the city as whole.

A huge increase in the population of people who both live and work in our urban core is something which could foster a much more vibrant and active true downtown area. A developed, active downtown is something unique (from the suburbs surrounding it) that could actually increase that 300,000 person population statistic

[Founding Father]

I get what you're arguement is and its basically logic based on faulty semantics. If anything you're statistics only strenghten the arguement people are making on this thread

'Downtown' Cincinnati is a large area that's mostly suburbs. There distinction being made is population isn't shifting between suburbs, its shifting from suburbs to the urban core, which is pretty unprecedented in Cincinnati.

A population shift from Cheviot to Lockland or Clifton Gaslight to Oakley is 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' in that it doesn't really change the status quo of the city as whole.

A huge increase in the population of people who both live and work in our urban core is something which could foster a much more vibrant and active true downtown area. A developed, active downtown is something unique (from the suburbs surrounding it) that could actually increase that 300,000 person population statistic

The arguement is sound.

Again, for the record, I'm all for a revitalized downtown/OTR and want to see it succeed. These developments however are NOT bringing in more people to Cincinnati as Cincinnati is losing population. The uptick downtown and in OTR is robbing Peter to pay Paul. It is shifting people around the city not gaining people in the city.

[xavierly]

Revitilization is a process, it takes a lot of time. The difference between OTR south of liberty now and 5 years ago is noticeable, and that's because the population is increasing and the demographics are changing. There's a difference between having a clean, vibrant urban area and having a rundown metro area (which Cincinnati has always been).

It's still in the extremely early stages, but things like the Banks and 3CDC projects are helping to create a community that has the resources, but also the emotional investment to really help clean up and change downtown into somewhere people actually want to live and visit.

[Kahns Krazy]

...OTR and downtown will see young professionals consistently living there along side empty nesters. Those young professionals only live there for so long though and move away as studies have shown. They are replaced by the next generation of new college grads but the area does not really grow in population. It maintains or loses population almost every year.


The arguement is sound.

Again, for the record, I'm all for a revitalized downtown/OTR and want to see it succeed. These developments however are NOT bringing in more people to Cincinnati as Cincinnati is losing population. The uptick downtown and in OTR is robbing Peter to pay Paul. It is shifting people around the city not gaining people in the city.

So the population maintains or loses, but there's an uptick?

You are really losing your touch. You never used to argue against yourself, or spell argument with an 'e'.

[drudy23]

He's saying the City loses population every year, but OTR upticks because of movement from other areas of the city. I've read one page and figured that out.

And PS - it's certainly a logical argument.

[bobbiemcgee]

Well Metro Cincy lost 10.4% in the last census and apparently another 2% since.

[Founding Father]

Revitilization is a process, it takes a lot of time. The difference between OTR south of liberty now and 5 years ago is noticeable, and that's because the population is increasing and the demographics are changing. There's a difference between having a clean, vibrant urban area and having a rundown metro area (which Cincinnati has always been).

It's still in the extremely early stages, but things like the Banks and 3CDC projects are helping to create a community that has the resources, but also the emotional investment to really help clean up and change downtown into somewhere people actually want to live and visit.

I don't disagree with any of that and I love what is going on all around the city. I plan on going to the revised Washington Park when it is complete with my family. I have gone and will go to the new restaurants on 6th street, OTR and the Banks. I don't really gamble but I'm glad downtown will have a casino soon. Having said all that, I don't think any of it is going to translate in a population boon for Cincinnati.

[Founding Father]

He's saying the City loses population every year, but OTR upticks because of movement from other areas of the city. I've read one page and figured that out.

And PS - it's certainly a logical argument.

Exactly!

[LadyMuskie]

In case anyone is interested and missed it, tonight on Nat Geo the show Decrypters is going to be examining some of the remains found in the old Episcopal Cemetery underneath Washington Park. The show is on at 8pm. I'm not sure how accurate the findings will be, but it should be interesting nonetheless (if you like history like me :) ).

[_LH]

Nice try _LH.

Things _LH was wrong about:

-2008 Cincinnati elections
-2011 Cincinnati elections
-Mark McGwire using steroids
-Ken Griffey Jr not using steroids
-Saying you only have 1 screen name


Congratulations _LH, you may have just become the first regular poster in Xavier Hoops history to be diagnosed with all four Troll Category characteristics:

http://www.xavierhoops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21322

Poor Jimmy. Are you ever right?

I was not wrong about the 2008 or 2010 Cincinnati elections.

I never said McGwire did not use steroids.

I never said Griffey, Jr. used steroids.

I created a second screen name (Ocean) that I used once or twice when I was banned.

Poor Jimmy. When is Kansas going to join the BE like you said they would?

I don't meet any of the criteria to be a troll. In fact the only troll I see around here is you, posting this troll like post in this thread. What does your post have to do with the topic anyway?

Jimmy is the biggest troll here!

[LadyMuskie]

Did anyone else happen to catch the episode of Decrypters?

First, I thought that the City looked fantastic on camera. I really did. The skyline looked great. Union Terminal looked good. Overall I thought the City looked clean and modern even on the show. I was happy to see how good it looked, despite all the talk about cholera back in the 1800s.

Second, I was reminded how much history Cincinnati has and how important Cincinnati once was in developing the frontier in the early years of our nation. I wish that more people knew about it and I wish that the city had found a way to embrace all of that history while also moving forward.

Mostly, I walked away with a tremendous amount of respect for scientists who have just developed awe-inspiring techniques in forensics. It really is incredible what science can tell us and do for us. I can't imagine a criminal thinking that he or she can actually get away with a crime with these kinds of techniques available.

[Kahns Krazy]

I did see that program. It is truly amazing the advances that have been made since this city was founded. The number of families that just died out in a matter of hours was a surprise to me.

The part about grave robbing for corpses for medical studies was interesting too.

[xubrew]

Things _LH was wrong about:



I find this statement to be redundant.

[_LH]

I find this statement to be redundant.

No but it was certainly incorrect.

[LadyMuskie]

I did see that program. It is truly amazing the advances that have been made since this city was founded. The number of families that just died out in a matter of hours was a surprise to me.

The part about grave robbing for corpses for medical studies was interesting too.

I found that interesting too. I also didn't know that in the mid-1800s Cincinnati had 13 medical schools. I knew that UC was the first teaching hospital, but to have an additional 12 in the city at that time surprised me. No wonder grave robbing was so prevalent.

[Snipe]

I think that a lot of these decisions based on where to live are at least partially race based. I tend to think it means a lot. I think that people are tribal.

[Kahns Krazy]

I think that a lot of these decisions based on where to live are at least partially race based. I tend to think it means a lot. I think that people are tribal.

I think it's economic, but I also think it's true that cultures (which can be racial, religion, age, or other common interests) have their own economic priorities, which can lead to a high corrolation between race, economic prioroties, and neighborhood (or "tribe").

[Kahns Krazy]

DCI released the 2011 "state of downtown" report. Reportedly a 12% population increase in downtown year over year. There aren't may neighborhoods in the country posting double-digit growth rates.
http://www.downtowncincinnati.com/Libraries/DCI_Publications/2011_SOD_lo_res.sflb.ashx

I hit the OTR 5k this weekend. There continues to be positive activity Downtown.

[boozehound]

Not related to OTR, but downtown-related (and I apologize if this has already been posted): I saw an article recently that Cincinnat was getting a Yard House restaurant at the banks. I ate at one recently and was very impressed. Well over one hundred beers on tap and very good food ranging from what I would call upscale bar food full entree options.

Yard House (http://www.yardhouse.com/default.aspx)

[Kahns Krazy]

Yard House will add significant capacity to the Banks bar/dining options, and will be across the street from Ruth Chris. That is a lot of new capacity in an area that didn't exist last year.

This helps establish the Banks as a Dining and entertainment destination, but I wonder if it is coming at the expense of other options, or if this will be capturing dollars from Reds/Bengals fans that otherwise would have not gone out before or after games.

The Yard House essentially right next to the Lager House reminds me of when Oceanaire opened on 6th right after McCormick & Schmick opened on the square. I think the Yard House and Lager House will be fighting for the same crowd. I just hope it's a big enough crowd to support both locations.

[xudash]

Yard House will add significant capacity to the Banks bar/dining options, and will be across the street from Ruth Chris. That is a lot of new capacity in an area that didn't exist last year.

This helps establish the Banks as a Dining and entertainment destination, but I wonder if it is coming at the expense of other options, or if this will be capturing dollars from Reds/Bengals fans that otherwise would have not gone out before or after games.

The Yard House essentially right next to the Lager House reminds me of when Oceanaire opened on 6th right after McCormick & Schmick opened on the square. I think the Yard House and Lager House will be fighting for the same crowd. I just hope it's a big enough crowd to support both locations.

I've never been in "retail" in any regard, or commercial real estate development for that matter, but concentration done the right way usually benefits those that pursue it.

We'll see. The area certainly appears to be positioned as a destination.

[Mack Attack]

Judging from the crowds at the Lager House I think the market is more than big enough to handle both places. I was at the Lager House yesterday around 12:30 and the place was packed. The line to the hostess stand was almost out the door. I can't remember the last time I saw a downtown restaurant that crowded on a Sunday afternoon with no sporting event. There were tons of families checking out the new park too.

[Kahns Krazy]

Judging from the crowds at the Lager House I think the market is more than big enough to handle both places. I was at the Lager House yesterday around 12:30 and the place was packed. .

I was there the previous Sunday when the weather was nasty. The place was no more than 20% full at dinner time, and there was a game. It has to be hard to capacity plan when weather plays such a big role in the crowd you're going to get.

[_LH]

Judging from the crowds at the Lager House I think the market is more than big enough to handle both places. I was at the Lager House yesterday around 12:30 and the place was packed. The line to the hostess stand was almost out the door. I can't remember the last time I saw a downtown restaurant that crowded on a Sunday afternoon with no sporting event. There were tons of families checking out the new park too.

I was there on Friday night and while the new places at the Banks were packed, a block north, the restaurants we passed were ghost towns.

I expect the new places at the Banks to do well out of shear newness for a time and they will do well on game days (81 Reds and 10 or so Bengals) but after a few years I see the Banks taking customers from the restuarants on 6th street/fountain square area or vice versa. The area is saturated with restaurants and with the area not really growing, they all can't survive.

[Kahns Krazy]

d with the area not really growing, they all can't survive.

Somehow in an area that's not really growing, Findlay Market has gone from 580,000 annual visits to 880,000 annual visits in 5 years. Reds attendance last year was 160,000 higher than any year in the previous 5. Cincinnati Park Board reported an increase in Riverfront events such as philanthropic walks, music festivals and cultural festivals (the dedication of the new park you visited on Friday would have counted) from 573,000 to 900,000 in the last 5 years.

That alone represents over 800,000 new visits downtown in the last 5 years, and 800,000 visits can support a lot of new restaurants. The facts continue to contradict your opinion that downtown isn't growing. I know you won't change your mind, but I just wanted to share the true facts with you.

[muskienick]

Somehow in an area that's not really growing, Findlay Market has gone from 580,000 annual visits to 880,000 annual visits in 5 years. Reds attendance last year was 160,000 higher than any year in the previous 5. Cincinnati Park Board reported an increase in Riverfront events such as philanthropic walks, music festivals and cultural festivals (the dedication of the new park you visited on Friday would have counted) from 573,000 to 900,000 in the last 5 years.

That alone represents over 800,000 new visits downtown in the last 5 years, and 800,000 visits can support a lot of new restaurants. The facts continue to contradict your opinion that downtown isn't growing. I know you won't change your mind, but I just wanted to share the true facts with you.

It must be the "Obama Effect" kicking in!

[_LH]

Somehow in an area that's not really growing, Findlay Market has gone from 580,000 annual visits to 880,000 annual visits in 5 years. Reds attendance last year was 160,000 higher than any year in the previous 5. Cincinnati Park Board reported an increase in Riverfront events such as philanthropic walks, music festivals and cultural festivals (the dedication of the new park you visited on Friday would have counted) from 573,000 to 900,000 in the last 5 years.

That alone represents over 800,000 new visits downtown in the last 5 years, and 800,000 visits can support a lot of new restaurants. The facts continue to contradict your opinion that downtown isn't growing. I know you won't change your mind, but I just wanted to share the true facts with you.

It is a fact that Cincinnati and OH are losing population, so while a better Reds and Bengals teams might get more visitors, the population remains at around 300K for Cincinnati and that is not enough to support more restaurants. It is just a matter of time before those that have been around for 5 or more years are forced to close because people are in a tizy over the new places at the Banks. Classic case of robbying Peter to pay Paul.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

No but it was certainly incorrect.

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/7/b/5/7b5876aeedfdc52bb440e1f0dd587b3e.gif

[_LH]

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/7/b/5/7b5876aeedfdc52bb440e1f0dd587b3e.gif

Trolling at its finest. Thanks Jimmy.

[xudash]

Ohio certainly has been losing population, but the Cincinnati MSA seems to be doing well:

http://www.cincinnatiusa.org/pdf/pop/cmsa_profile.pdf

MSA is more relevant than population inside the city limit.

[Kahns Krazy]

It is a fact that Cincinnati and OH are losing population, so while a better Reds and Bengals teams might get more visitors, the population remains at around 300K for Cincinnati and that is not enough to support more restaurants. It is just a matter of time before those that have been around for 5 or more years are forced to close because people are in a tizy over the new places at the Banks. Classic case of robbying Peter to pay Paul.


Hilarious. Better sports teams can draw more ticket sales, but better restaurants can't draw more diners? What is the logic there?

Tizy? Robbying?

[LadyMuskie]

I have to say that I think the Banks is looking very good. The different kinds of restaurants going in make it easy to find something everyone can like. The new Smale Riverfront Park is gorgeous. If they keep the park looking nice and put in more things to entice families down there, I think it will be a long lasting success. We're planning of making a day of it with little LM to do the Ducks from Newport and then enjoy this side of the river too going to the park and eating down there.

And the restaurants in "mid-town" around the Square should have no problem doing well in the long haul, for one because they're really good (like Via Vite and Nada) and second because people going to see a show at the Aronoff aren't going to walk from the Banks up to the Aronoff. In addition, people who only have an hour for lunch at work can grab a bite to eat at Rock Bottom in less time than they can walking down to the Banks. So, you'll still draw the business lunch crowds at those restaurants as you always have.

[muskienick]

Hilarious. Better sports teams can draw more ticket sales, but better restaurants can't draw more diners? What is the logic there?

Tizy? Robbying?

LH is on my Ignore list so I dont "get" to see his posts except when quoted by others. I suspect that he must have had Dan Quayle for his spelling teacher throughout his schooling years. I also suspect that he either failed to take logic or failed logic when he did take it.

Only a few of the people who are thronging to places in Over the Rhine (Abigail Street, Lavomatic, Senate, et al) and on the Riverfront (like Moerlein's Pub and Restaurant, etc.) are residents of the City of Cincinnati. The others are among the 1,500,000+ who live outside the City Limits including large numbers of my own family and friends who have visited each of those places, some more than once, and were pleased enough to want to return often in the future, even outside baseball and football seasons.

A poster's opinion is not necessarily fact just because of claims made in a thread. Go down to those places and see the people-traffic on the streets and in the venues before making those statements. The fact that LH hasn't seemingly frequented those businesses isn't proof of their imminent demise. It's merely proof that he's unaware of what is going on down there.

[_LH]

Nick,

You need to read what I wrote. I said none of those things. The newer restaurants ARE doing well as expected but time will show they are simply taking customers away from restaurants that have been around for longer. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Cincinnati's population remains at around 300K and cannot support more restaurants.

One Friday night, the Banks were packed but In Between Tavern was completely empty. A few blocks north, there was sparce crowds at Fountain Square.

I remember seeing lines out the door when Jillians opened in Covington. It is closed. I remember huge lines at many bars on Main Street in the 1990's (all closed).

Point is, the newer bars and restaurants will show higher crowds for a time due to curiousity and shear newness but the increased crowds are coming from other restaurants in the area. There are not MORE people all of the sudden eating out or coming in from Indiana or Michigan to eat at the Banks.

[Kahns Krazy]

1-Please look up the difference between shear and sheer.

2-You keep coming back to this 300k number and the "robbing Peter to pay Paul" argument, curiously just like our now-gone friend Founding Father. You guys must be "roommates", NTTAWWT.

3-The In Between Tavern is your evidence that the Banks restaurants are "robbying" other locations? The In Between Tavern exists for game days only. That place has been empty for every single non-home-game day for the last 20 years. Citing that as your reference "restaurant" is hilarious. I haven't seen anyone eat in that joint in at least 15 years. Do they even still have a kitchen?

New visitors are coming downtown, and all the data supports it. Hotel occupancy is up, and exceeds the national average. People are bringing their West Chester Red Robin dollars down to the Banks to see a game and go to the restaurants. This is a positive for the tax base of the city. The fastest growing residential area in the city is OTR, reversing a trend that goes back to prohibition. This is a positive for the tax base in the city. A new casino will be open next year at the edge of the downtown district that will bring more spending in from outside the city limits. More positive for the tax base.

The economy is recovering, very slowly. There are more recreational dollars being spent, and people are choosing to spend a disproportionately higher amount of their entertainment dollars downtown.

This has been well covered.

[danaandvictory]

One Friday night, the Banks were packed but In Between Tavern was completely empty. A few blocks north, there was sparce crowds at Fountain Square.

Good. In Between is a freaking dump.

[_LH]

1-Please look up the difference between shear and sheer.

2-You keep coming back to this 300k number and the "robbing Peter to pay Paul" argument, curiously just like our now-gone friend Founding Father. You guys must be "roommates", NTTAWWT.

3-The In Between Tavern is your evidence that the Banks restaurants are "robbying" other locations? The In Between Tavern exists for game days only. That place has been empty for every single non-home-game day for the last 20 years. Citing that as your reference "restaurant" is hilarious. I haven't seen anyone eat in that joint in at least 15 years. Do they even still have a kitchen?

New visitors are coming downtown, and all the data supports it. Hotel occupancy is up, and exceeds the national average. People are bringing their West Chester Red Robin dollars down to the Banks to see a game and go to the restaurants. This is a positive for the tax base of the city. The fastest growing residential area in the city is OTR, reversing a trend that goes back to prohibition. This is a positive for the tax base in the city. A new casino will be open next year at the edge of the downtown district that will bring more spending in from outside the city limits. More positive for the tax base.

The economy is recovering, very slowly. There are more recreational dollars being spent, and people are choosing to spend a disproportionately higher amount of their entertainment dollars downtown.

This has been well covered.

1. Pardon the typo. Weak response on your part and it shows how little you have to argue.

2. They are the real numbers and what is happening at the Banks right now is indeed "robbing Peter to pay Paul. You are either too stupid to see this or too proud to admit you have no clue.

3. The In Between was one example. I also noticed very small crowds at a number of places in and around fountain square on a Friday night, while people flocked our of curiousity to see the new places at the Banks. Eventually this novelty will wear off and what we will be left with is too many restaurants for the 300K people that live there. We will see restaurants close because they cannot compete with the total number of options available. You are either too stupid to see this or just plain ignorant.

All those things are true in your last paragraph and all are fleeting. People like new things. That only lasts so long. Eventually after a visit or two, the Banks will not be well attended on non game days. Newport on the Levee is already seeing this. That place was packed for the first few years it was around. Now, not so much.

I am all for new things downtown and a revitalized downtown. I spend more time and money down there than you probably do. I am just a realist and know what is going to come of these places or the places a few blocks away. This is nothing new, it has been going on for decades. Cincinnati is a small town. There is nothing wrong with that. Developers don't care if their new development takes patrons away from a development that is 5 or more years older. Both can't survive and never do. The Banks success will come at the expense of the Levee and other restuarants that used to see game day crowds.

[Kahns Krazy]

The Banks success will come at the expense of the Levee and other restuarants that used to see game day crowds.

Since you love to quote the 300k number so often, you would know that it does not include Newport. Therefore, using your own definitions, you have just concluded that Cincinnati is in fact taking new entertainment dollars away from other cities, and not simply robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Thanks for playing.

[_LH]

Man you are that stupid. If you don't think the Levee supports greater Cincinnati you are dumber than I thought. Cincinnati does not need to compete with Newport and Covington.

[_LH]

IAnd the restaurants in "mid-town" around the Square should have no problem doing well in the long haul, for one because they're really good (like Via Vite and Nada) and second because people going to see a show at the Aronoff aren't going to walk from the Banks up to the Aronoff. In addition, people who only have an hour for lunch at work can grab a bite to eat at Rock Bottom in less time than they can walking down to the Banks. So, you'll still draw the business lunch crowds at those restaurants as you always have.

Are you telling me people aren't going to be hopping on and off the streetcar to go to the Banks for lunch if you work at 6th and Vine?

[Kahns Krazy]

Man you are that stupid. If you don't think the Levee supports greater Cincinnati you are dumber than I thought. Cincinnati does not need to compete with Newport and Covington.

Hey, let's keep the insults to a minimum. I was just using your definitions. You were specifically not referring to "Greater Cincinnati", because if you were then your population number and your claim that the population number is not growing would be wrong. The greater Cincinnati population has increased 7% since 2000, so supporting new restaurants should not be a problem.

And the Levee does not "support" Greater Cincinnati. How much Levee sales tax goes to support the stadium funds? How much tax revenue is generated to fund Cincinnati city pensions from employees at the Levee?

Cincinnati absolutely needs to compete with Newport and Covington. More than that, it needs to win.

[_LH]

Hey, let's keep the insults to a minimum. I was just using your definitions. You were specifically not referring to "Greater Cincinnati", because if you were then your population number and your claim that the population number is not growing would be wrong. The greater Cincinnati population has increased 7% since 2000, so supporting new restaurants should not be a problem.

And the Levee does not "support" Greater Cincinnati. How much Levee sales tax goes to support the stadium funds? How much tax revenue is generated to fund Cincinnati city pensions from employees at the Levee?

Cincinnati absolutely needs to compete with Newport and Covington. More than that, it needs to win.

Your stupidity prevents some of that.

Your stupdity continues. I am not talking about support in tax dollars. The entertainment venue is a place for Cincinnatians to attend.

Simply stated there are too many restuarants for the 300K people to actually support. It is robbing Peter to pay Paul as time will show existing restuarants will struggle and close because of the new options at the Banks.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Your stupidity prevents some of that.

Your stupdity continues. I am not talking about support in tax dollars. The entertainment venue is a place for Cincinnatians to attend.

Simply stated there are too many restuarants for the 300K people to actually support. It is robbing Peter to pay Paul as time will show existing restuarants will struggle and close because of the new options at the Banks.

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/members/alibaba-6133/albums/alibaba1/34477-pot-meet-kettle.jpg

[_LH]

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/members/alibaba-6133/albums/alibaba1/34477-pot-meet-kettle.jpg

More trolling from Jimmy. What a surprise. :rolleyes:

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

More trolling from Jimmy. What a surprise. :rolleyes:

If by "trolling" you mean exposing how illogical your accusations against Kahns are, then yes I agree

[_LH]

If by "trolling" you mean exposing how illogical your accusations against Kahns are, then yes I agree

By trolling I mean adding off topic nonsense to a thread. That is all you have offered here.

Nothing I have written is illogical by the way.

[Kahns Krazy]

Are you telling me people aren't going to be hopping on and off the streetcar to go to the Banks for lunch if you work at 6th and Vine?

Actually, that is what you have said:


I still fail to see what the streetcar would have done that Metro buses did not already do.
I still think that those that rode Metro in that area would have switched to the streetcar but that not many new riders would have been added and it would have been a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul..


The only way the streetcar would come close to the promises for Cincinnati would be if it were connected to light rail. Otherwise it does nothing different or new than Metro buses that currently patrol these areas half empty..

According to you, the streetcar will have no adverse impact to the restaurants around fountain square.

Paul is getting pretty damned rich.

[_LH]

Because it won't. LM agrees apparantly.

[boozehound]

Your stupidity prevents some of that.

Your stupdity continues. I am not talking about support in tax dollars. The entertainment venue is a place for Cincinnatians to attend.

Simply stated there are too many restuarants for the 300K people to actually support. It is robbing Peter to pay Paul as time will show existing restuarants will struggle and close because of the new options at the Banks.

How long does this have to continue before we get a permanent IP ban for this clown?

[_LH]

How long does this have to continue before we get a permanent IP ban for this clown?

How am I a clown exactly and what have I done that is ban worthy?

[LadyMuskie]

Woah. Wait a minute! I never said anything about the currently non-existent streetcar. As of right now, and for the immediate future, there is no streetcar so I have no idea what, if any impact it will have on lunch times and restaurants. If it runs quickly and people can get there and back in their lunch hour, then I would assume they would ride it.

When I worked, I worked on 4th Street at Walnut and depending upon how the streetcars ran, where they stopped, etc., I might not have had enough time to get down to the Banks (but then I also generally had so much work to do that I ate at my desk 95% of the time). My main haunts were Ingredients and Subway because they were less than a block away and had salads. I, and most women I worked with, don't eat a huge lunch everyday. So, IMO, I think that new restaurants at The Banks will draw more men than women, but I think that was/is true of the restaurants on the Square.

To be honest, since I haven't worked downtown for nearly 4 years and my husband hasn't worked downtown for over a year, I don't really know what the trends currently are for eating down there. I know when talking to former colleagues and bosses that most of them have been packing lunch, but that has more to do with the economy than anything else. I do know that the food court at Carew Tower is basically a ghost town now but that was trending that way when I was still working.

I do think, from talking to friends and family about The Banks, that in order to keep people going down there even when there aren't ball games they're going to need to put something in to draw families. The new park is a nice start because it's beautiful, has the labyrinth, and the fountains for kids to enjoy. A Ferris Wheel similar to the one at Navy Pier or a smallish carousel or something like that, that will entice the families from the West Chester and Mason areas would go a long way. One friend suggested that they move the Children's Museum from Union Terminal down to the Freedom Center in a move similar to Chicago's Children's Museum being at Navy Pier. I think that's a great idea because the Children's Museum is always drawing in the people (and it would help to stabilize the Freedom Center). Then moms would have a wide selection of restaurants to treat the kids to, or you could even pack a lunch and eat in the park. Bring in some ice cream vendors and kids will be begging to go back.

Otherwise, just to go down there and park and eat, isn't going to draw the big crowds long term. Especially when you're competing with the movie theaters, aquarium and the duck boats at Newport which are more family friendly. I know a lot of families that are looking to spend money on things the whole family can do, and most families I know are not going to drive downtown just to eat and then go home. Especially when you consider that you can get good meals in any suburb (and for us westsiders we can eat at the Cabana and get the river views in the spring and summer without having to pay for parking.)

That said, for us, we make a day out of going to Sawyer Point and The Banks and we've taken in 3 ball games already this year. We're going to take another day to ride the Ducks and maybe go back to The Banks and eat (but staying in Newport has its advantages too). The problem, in my mind anyway, isn't that there aren't enough people to support the restaurants we have, but that there aren't enough people stepping out and trying new things and finding a new comfort zone. If more people are willing to try a restaurant outside of Skyline or LaRosas, and if a real effort is made to entice not just singles or young professionals, but also families who are more stable (and loyal), The Banks will be a success.

[Kahns Krazy]

The problem, in my mind anyway, isn't that there aren't enough people to support the restaurants we have, but that there aren't enough people stepping out and trying new things and finding a new comfort zone. If more people are willing to try a restaurant outside of Skyline or LaRosas, and if a real effort is made to entice not just singles or young professionals, but also families who are more stable (and loyal), The Banks will be a success.

This goes to my point about all of the investment, be it the streetcar, OTR condos, Banks, etc . If you look at it and only see what is there, it will never make sense. If you look at it and see what can be, then it becomes more viable.

While part of the redevelopment is to provide options for the current Cincinnati residents, the real payback comes in attracting new residents and businesses. We need to attract young professionals to replace the families that move to the burbs. I don't want to try to convince Betty in St. Bernard to skip LaRosas this week and come to the banks, I want to convince a college senior that Cincinnati is a viable place to live.

[paulxu]

If you look at it and only see what is there, it will never make sense. If you look at it and see what can be, then it becomes more viable.

Spoken like a true Kennedy! Public Reps!

[_LH]

This goes to my point about all of the investment, be it the streetcar, OTR condos, Banks, etc . If you look at it and only see what is there, it will never make sense. If you look at it and see what can be, then it becomes more viable.

While part of the redevelopment is to provide options for the current Cincinnati residents, the real payback comes in attracting new residents and businesses. We need to attract young professionals to replace the families that move to the burbs. I don't want to try to convince Betty in St. Bernard to skip LaRosas this week and come to the banks, I want to convince a college senior that Cincinnati is a viable place to live.

I want this to happen as well but I don't think adding things like a streetcar and restaurants to an area is the way to do it.

[boozehound]

Any chance we can ban LH for negative repping me with a comment to 'go f myself'? Name calling and personal attacks are verboten here, right?

[Kahns Krazy]

I want this to happen as well but I don't think adding things like a streetcar and restaurants to an area is the way to do it.

I am being 100% sincere when I ask this: What is the way to do it?


I believe things are being done in a way that is different from what was happening in the 50 years leading up to the 2001 riots. It is not just a streetcar and restaurants. It is new residential units at the Banks and in OTR, new retail, a new park, a revitalized fountain square, new events, new office space, agressive marketing of the city to business tenants, a new casino. It is a signifcant, coordinated effort to grow the residential, business and entertainment options in the downtown and OTR areas, and the evidence is that it is working.

It's a whole new downtown experience in the last 10 years and people are seeing it. Certainly, it's not the endgame, but it is a great foundation on which to attract new businesses and residents.

[_LH]

I am being 100% sincere when I ask this: What is the way to do it?


I believe things are being done in a way that is different from what was happening in the 50 years leading up to the 2001 riots. It is not just a streetcar and restaurants. It is new residential units at the Banks and in OTR, new retail, a new park, a revitalized fountain square, new events, new office space, agressive marketing of the city to business tenants, a new casino. It is a signifcant, coordinated effort to grow the residential, business and entertainment options in the downtown and OTR areas, and the evidence is that it is working.

It's a whole new downtown experience in the last 10 years and people are seeing it. Certainly, it's not the endgame, but it is a great foundation on which to attract new businesses and residents.

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? If I knew the answer or could make it happen, I'd be rich.

Obviously, getting more jobs in the region is the best way but that is easier said that done.

The solution you outlined above seems to be "let's build this and that" and "they will come or stay" but I don't see that working long term. I don't think having more condos and a streetcar downtown is going to make new college grads that would have otherwise left the area for a high paying job/career opportunities to stay in Cincinnati. It might make the kid get an apartment downtown for the first couple of years out of college instead of one in Blue Ash or Hyde Park for example but those are the one's that were going to stay anyways. Those kids eventually move to a house in the burbs to raise a family.

Downtown living is great for singles and empty nesters. It is great for newly weds and those without kids. It is even okay for the family of 3 or 4 with kids not yet in school. It is however not long term family friendly and that makes those that did live there eventually leave.

Again, easier said than done but improving Cincinnati Public Schools and it's poor reputation would be a huge help.

It's not an easy fix and I'm glad places like 3CDC do what they do and I've been so impressed with their results to date. My family and I really enjoy the added entertainment, parks and events all around the city due to 3CDC but I'd never move my family down there to live. You know, it's a nice place to visit but I would not want to live there kind of thing.

[Kahns Krazy]

CPS needs help, and that would be a huge factor in the long term retention of the tax base in the city of Cincinnati as a whole (the 300k), primarily the potential family neighborhoods that aren't downtown. I'll agree with you that building a streetcar does not address that need at all. It seems like some of the school programming they are working on may be baby steps, but fixing the school system is big issue.

I think there is huge potential downtown, and that the early indicators are pointing toward some level of successful, positive change. Will it ultimately be successful enough to create a critical mass? Will it change the perception of Cincinnati as a place to locate a business, and live and play? Can we duplicate the success of a Charlotte or a Portland? I really don't know. I am quite certain that without a material change in what downtown and OTR have been historically (in my lifetime), that it will not change.

I get that the Banks taking one patron's dinner dollars from Newport to the Banks doesn't add any regional economic value, but there is a perception shift that I think is very important to the city, and to the region as a whole. Cincinnati is no longer "less cool" than Newport or Covington, and it's not because of a negative shift in Newport. If "downtown" can change the reputation as a place where nothing ever gets done to a place with a modern mix of business, residential and entertainment, I think the long term impact to the city as a whole will be worth the investment.

[Snipe]

Any chance we can ban LH for negative repping me with a comment to 'go f myself'? Name calling and personal attacks are verboten here, right?

I support any posters right to tell someone to "go f yourself' in a rep. That is the stuff that should be kept private and off the board. Given LH's reputation, your standing won't be impacted by even much of a fraction. Neg Reps from LH don't mean anything given the scoring system or reputation points, and that is because he has the worst reputation on the board.

The only thing it can do is anger you enough so that you post about it, and in that case he wins. So in this case he beat you, you big pussy.

I will give you a positive rep to even it out, and with my awesome rep power as President of Xavier Hoops, it will far outweigh LH, because I am such an incredible man.

Man am I incredible.

[boozehound]

I support any posters right to tell someone to "go f yourself' in a rep. That is the stuff that should be kept private and off the board. Given LH's reputation, your standing won't be impacted by even much of a fraction. Neg Reps from LH don't mean anything given the scoring system or reputation points, and that is because he has the worst reputation on the board.

The only thing it can do is anger you enough so that you post about it, and in that case he wins. So in this case he beat you, you big pussy.

I will give you a positive rep to even it out, and with my awesome rep power as President of Xavier Hoops, it will far outweigh LH, because I am such an incredible man.

Man am I incredible.

I'm not worried about that neg rep (but thank you for your rep anyways, kind sir) I'm just getting tired of LH.

Maybe I am being kind of a pussy about it. I generally don't mind people acting like tools on here unless it derails interesting threads.

Looking back on this thread it is kind of interesting in that it contains LH arguing with the same people using 2 different user names. I guess I should just appreciate it for it's comedic value and leave it at that.

[Snipe]

If you want to get the interesting part of the thread going, that it would behoove you to talk about that and not LH. I would agree that this is an interesting topic that has been hijacked, but you need to ignore the hijackers.

Simply take any point you want in this thread, quote it, and then expound upon it. You don't have to pay attention to the last 10 replies. We have no rules here. Go for it.

[_LH]

Maybe I am being kind of a pussy about it.

You are indeed.

I've done nothing wrong in this thread and discussed the issues of that are being discussed. If you don't like what I have to write, scroll past it and man up!

[Kahns Krazy]

The irony here is that the discussion had just turned positive.

[_LH]

The irony here is that the discussion had just turned positive.

I don't think it ever wasn't "positive". People can disagree on how to slice an orange in a positive fashion.

The nice thing about the way these threads work is you can scroll right on by those you don't care to read or simply skip an entire thread if you want.

[Kahns Krazy]

I don't consider you repeatedly calling me stupid to be positive. I thought your post from the morning was.

[_LH]

I don't consider you repeatedly calling me stupid to be positive. I thought your post from the morning was.

I guess your personal attacks at me and attempts to mock me are not "positive" either. Of course, Jimmy's trolling posts and boozehound's call to ban me are not positive but none of that really bothers me.

When I spoke of positives I meant the actual discussion on the topic. I can see past the other stuff and don't really care about it.

[PMI]

I accidentally positive repped _LH yesterday. If someone could even that out for me by negging him, I'd really appreciate it. Although at this point it'll just be kind of like robbing Peter to pay Paul...

[boozehound]

CPS needs help, and that would be a huge factor in the long term retention of the tax base in the city of Cincinnati as a whole (the 300k), primarily the potential family neighborhoods that aren't downtown. I'll agree with you that building a streetcar does not address that need at all. It seems like some of the school programming they are working on may be baby steps, but fixing the school system is big issue.


Regarding CPS: can anybody point to examples of larger city schools that are actually good? Is there a successful model of this working in a city with similar demographic and income statistics to Cincinnati? I feel like in most of the cities I have some familiarity with the city schools are generally not very good.

I don't really see that as being a real barrier to the development of downtown, though. If you live in the city limits and don't want to send your kids to public schools you send them to private schools like many residents of areas like Hyde Park and Mt. Lookout do.

I'm in favor of fixing CPS but I'm not sure how feasible it is and I'm not sure it's really necessary for downtown's continued development (although it certainly wouldn't hurt!).

[paulxu]

Although at this point it'll just be kind of like robbing Peter to pay Paul...

Well, whatever is going on, the money is not coming through here.
I don't want to hear the old check in the mail BS. Send the pesos you've taken from my buddy Peter.
Or else...no more free horse racing guaranteed winners.

[PMI]

Well, whatever is going on, the money is not coming through here.
I don't want to hear the old check in the mail BS. Send the pesos you've taken from my buddy Peter.
Or else...no more free horse racing guaranteed winners.

Hey, I'm a Paul too. I think I deserve my piece of the Peter pie.

[paulxu]

Hey, I'm a Paul too. I think I deserve my piece of the Peter pie.

I agree.

[_LH]

Regarding CPS: can anybody point to examples of larger city schools that are actually good? Is there a successful model of this working in a city with similar demographic and income statistics to Cincinnati? I feel like in most of the cities I have some familiarity with the city schools are generally not very good.

I don't really see that as being a real barrier to the development of downtown, though. If you live in the city limits and don't want to send your kids to public schools you send them to private schools like many residents of areas like Hyde Park and Mt. Lookout do.

I'm in favor of fixing CPS but I'm not sure how feasible it is and I'm not sure it's really necessary for downtown's continued development (although it certainly wouldn't hurt!).

Where's the closest "good" school if one lives at Shilito Place downtown?

Don't certain people want downtowners to go car-less?

[boozehound]

Where's the closest "good" school if one lives at Shilito Place downtown?

Don't certain people want downtowners to go car-less?

I don't know. Covington Latin? Summit Country Day isn't terribly far.

[PM Thor]

Where's the closest "good" school if one lives at Shilito Place downtown?

Don't certain people want downtowners to go car-less?

I've never seen one downtown, but yellow busses do ship kids around in town, and middle schoolers and older would have no problem riding a metro to their school (that's how I did it from College Hill across town).

I HATE dayton.

[LadyMuskie]

Regarding CPS: can anybody point to examples of larger city schools that are actually good? Is there a successful model of this working in a city with similar demographic and income statistics to Cincinnati? I feel like in most of the cities I have some familiarity with the city schools are generally not very good.

I don't really see that as being a real barrier to the development of downtown, though. If you live in the city limits and don't want to send your kids to public schools you send them to private schools like many residents of areas like Hyde Park and Mt. Lookout do.

I'm in favor of fixing CPS but I'm not sure how feasible it is and I'm not sure it's really necessary for downtown's continued development (although it certainly wouldn't hurt!).

CPS isn't a neighborhood school system. It's one of the reasons busing costs are so extraordinary. CPS will bus my child from my home on the west side to a school in Hyde Park if that's where we send her. So even though you can see the "neighborhood" CPS school from our third floor of our house if we chose to send our daughter to CPS, we could send her to just about any school in the system (although special enrollment/camping out is required for some of the schools life Clifton Fairview, etc.). For high school, CPS will pay part of your child's monthly pass on a Metro bus to go to Walnut Hills, for example. We're enrolling her in a Catholic school and that too is no longer parish based. We live on the west side, but we could send her to a school in Loveland if there was space available.

However, some parents, don't want their kid on a school bus for hours and hours each day going across the city. So, having a strong neighborhood school system would be nice. When we moved into our home (pre-child) we knew that CPS would not be a choice for us because our neighborhood school was in academic emergency and I didn't like the idea of my child being a bus for 4 hours a day criss-crossing the city. So, we've been saving up to send her to a Catholic school, and now we have the ability to choose which one of those we send her to as well.

[sweet16]

I think I deserve my piece of the Peter pie.

OK cowboy what exactly is this "peter pie" you're so deserving of?

[_LH]

I don't know. Covington Latin? Summit Country Day isn't terribly far.

I doubt either offer bus service to downtown. Do you know how much those schools cost as well?

[PMI]

OK cowboy what exactly is this "peter pie" you're so deserving of?

Sweet 16, everybody! He'll be here all night!

[LadyMuskie]

I doubt either offer bus service to downtown. Do you know how much those schools cost as well?

I'm not sure that that's true. CPS must, under Ohio law, bus students in its district to non-district schools (and by that I mean parochial schools, not other public schools, although charter schools would be included, I believe) if they choose to go to one. It isn't up to the individual school to get its students to class and then back home. It's up to the district in which the student lives. So, if a family lived on 4th Street, for example, and decided to send their kids to Annunciation, in Clifton, CPS would have to bus those kids to Annunciation. Now, there's nothing to say that child wouldn't get picked up at 5am and dropped back off at home at 5pm, but CPS has to provide busing to all the children in its district because of state law.

[Kahns Krazy]

I doubt either offer bus service to downtown. Do you know how much those schools cost as well?

Downtown is about the only area in town with bus service that lets you get nearly anywhere you need to go. Why would a school pay for a separate bus service?

The question is moot. Nothing about the current downtown development is aimed at getting families with school aged children living in the CBD or OTR. The suburbs do a very nice job meeting the needs of those families.

[_LH]

I'm not sure that that's true. CPS must, under Ohio law, bus students in its district to non-district schools if they choose to go to one. It isn't up to the individual school to get its students to class and then back home. It's up to the district in which the student lives. So, if a family lived on 4th Street, for example, and decided to send their kids to Annunciation, in Clifton, CPS would have to bus those kids to Annunciation. Now, there's nothing to say that child wouldn't get picked up at 5am and dropped back off at home at 5pm, but CPS has to provide busing to all the children in its district because of state law.

I doubt Covington Latin is in CPS's district since it is a different state. Now maybe you are right about Summit but like you said it would be a marathon type trip that I can't imagine someone would do to a 6 year old.

Also when the kid makes friends and lives 20 or 30 miles away from the school they attend, it is going to be an even bigger headache. Good luck carpooling for after school activities or weekend bday parties.

Basically it would be very difficult for a family of 3 or 4 kids to live downtown and attend a school in Hyde Park, Clifton, Price Hill or places even further away. Oh and remember there are lots of people who supposedly are going car-less when the live in the city.

[_LH]

Downtown is about the only area in town with bus service that lets you get nearly anywhere you need to go. Why would a school pay for a separate bus service?

The question is moot. Nothing about the current downtown development is aimed at getting families with school aged children living in the CBD or OTR. The suburbs do a very nice job meeting the needs of those families.

The question is not moot though as it shows that it would be difficult to send one's kids to a "good" school if you live downtown.

[LadyMuskie]

I doubt Covington Latin is in CPS's district since it is a different state. Now maybe you are right about Summit but like you said it would be a marathon type trip that I can't imagine someone would do to a 6 year old.

Also when the kid makes friends and live 20 or 30 miles away from the school they attend, it is going to be an even bigger headache. Good luck carpool for after school activities or weekend bday parties.

Basically it would be very difficult for a family of 3 or 4 kids to live downtown and attend a school in Hyde Park, Clifton, Price Hill or places even further away. Oh and remember there are lots of people who supposedly are going car-less when the live in the city.

Yes, but those problems exist even in the CPS suburbs. Our neighbor down the street sends her daughter to Fairview in Clifton. By car that's a 25-30 minute drive from our neighborhood. Her daughter goes to school with kids from all over the city. Some are from the inner city. Some are from Hyde Park. Some are from Clifton. She was the only child in her year from our neighborhood to attend Fairview. So, playdates, birthday parties, etc. are all outside of our neighborhood, but they knew that going in.

We wouldn't even qualify for busing to our neighborhood school, but because of the way CPS is set up, if we choose to send our daughter to another school, CPS has to bus her there or to a parochial school. My understanding from some neighbors with older kids is that if we chose to send our daughter to a parochial school located in Green Township (which is not CPS), CPS would have to (if we wanted her to ride the bus) contract with Oak Hills S.D. to get her to that school. Which explains why an Oak Hills S.D. school bus can be found around our CPS neighborhood.

So, again, a child living in downtown Cincinnati wouldn't be experiencing anything too different from some of the children living in Cincinnati suburbs.

[_LH]

Yes, but those problems exist even in the CPS suburbs. Our neighbor down the street sends her daughter to Fairview in Clifton. By car that's a 25-30 minute drive from our neighborhood. Her daughter goes to school with kids from all over the city. Some are from the inner city. Some are from Hyde Park. Some are from Clifton. She was the only child in her year from our neighborhood to attend Fairview. So, playdates, birthday parties, etc. are all outside of our neighborhood, but they knew that going in.

We wouldn't even qualify for busing to our neighborhood school, but because of the way CPS is set up, if we choose to send our daughter to another school, CPS has to bus her there or to a parochial school. My understanding from some neighbors with older kids is that if we chose to send our daughter to a parochial school located in Green Township (which is not CPS), CPS would have to (if we wanted her to ride the bus) contract with Oak Hills S.D. to get her to that school. Which explains why an Oak Hills S.D. school bus can be found around our CPS neighborhood.

So, again, a child living in downtown Cincinnati wouldn't be experiencing anything too different from some of the children living in Cincinnati suburbs.

Not so. If you live in Hyde Park for example and don't want to go to CPS you can go to St. Mary's and it is right there in the area. That is one example but there are plenty around the city. There is not really a good school close to downtown as an option so the busing and carpooling type things would be and are far worse if one were to live downtown.

[LadyMuskie]

Not so. If you live in Hyde Park for example and don't want to go to CPS you can go to St. Mary's and it is right there in the area. That is one example but there are plenty around the city. There is not really a good school close to downtown as an option so the busing and carpooling type things would be and are far worse if one were to live downtown.

What do you mean, not so? I cited an example of what's happening that proves you're original conclusion wrong. Are you calling me a liar, or what?

Not everyone can afford to send their children to parochial schools, particularly with the rising tuition costs (one school in Northside costs $6000 a year - for one child). We have a very good parochial school in our neighborhood too, but there are plenty of families who aren't able to afford the tuition and are therefore forced to look at CPS as their only remaining option.

Moreover, many non-Catholics don't want to send their children to a parochial school. Some don't mind, but others do. And just because a school is part of the archdiocese doesn't mean it is necessarily better. In addition, St. Francis Seraph is in OTR and would be a close option for those children living in downtown if that's where their parents wanted to send them. However, my guess is that if you can afford to raise a family in downtown Cincinnati, you'll be sending your children to the best the city has to offer (and that isn't St. Mary's in Hyde Park). I'd see Fairview German in their future followed by Walnut Hills, or the Catholic option of St. X for the boys and Ursula for the girls.

It might not be ideal, but kids today are used to their world being bigger than just the three or four streets around their house.

[_LH]

What do you mean, not so? I cited an example of what's happening that proves you're original conclusion wrong. Are you calling me a liar, or what?

Not everyone can afford to send their children to parochial schools, particularly with the rising tuition costs (one school in Northside costs $6000 a year - for one child). We have a very good parochial school in our neighborhood too, but there are plenty of families who aren't able to afford the tuition and are therefore forced to look at CPS as their only remaining option.

Moreover, many non-Catholics don't want to send their children to a parochial school. Some don't mind, but others do. And just because a school is part of the archdiocese doesn't mean it is necessarily better. In addition, St. Francis Seraph is in OTR and would be a close option for those children living in downtown if that's where their parents wanted to send them. However, my guess is that if you can afford to raise a family in downtown Cincinnati, you'll be sending your children to the best the city has to offer (and that isn't St. Mary's in Hyde Park). I'd see Fairview German in their future followed by Walnut Hills, or the Catholic option of St. X for the boys and Ursula for the girls.

It might not be ideal, but kids today are used to their world being bigger than just the three or four streets around their house.

You said that there are similar problems in other non downtown CPS neighborhoods and that is not the case because there are simply more options available to you if you live in Hyde Park for example that takes away the carpooling type issues.

I am not citing St. Mary's as some kind of wonderful school either.

[LadyMuskie]

You said that there are similar problems in other non downtown CPS neighborhoods and that is not the case because there are simply more options available to you if you live in Hyde Park for example that takes away the carpooling type issues.

I am not citing St. Mary's as some kind of wonderful school either.

There are similar issues in the CPS suburbs. On our street alone (which is not a large street) we have children attending Fairview in Clifton, St. Jude, St. Dominic, St. Als on the Ohio, Oak Hills H.S. (because his father teaches there), Elder, St. X, Mercy, Seton, Walnut Hills, Victory, Antoninus and the school on the river whose name is escaping me right now. If you throw in the fact that my daughter is attending a Lutheran preschool, you can add another choice. Only one of those schools is our neighborhood school and none of these parents carpool (although I know there are carpools amongst the teens - especially for the Elder and Seton crowds).

When I grew up, every kid on my street attended either the same parochial school or the same neighborhood public school, but that was a township and at the time you couldn't select which Catholic school you wanted. You went to the Catholic school in whose parish you resided. That's not the case anymore.

The kids in my neighborhood have the same schooling options as a child living downtown - assuming that child's parents can afford parochial schools. The options are the same. If I wanted my daughter to attend St. Mary's in Hyde Park, she could even though we don't live in Hyde Park. CPS would get her there. If we lived downtown, the same would be true there. So, just because a child lives downtown doesn't mean that child would be experiencing a life much different from the kids in our neighborhood who are all attending different schools as it is.

[_LH]

They are not really similar due to having more options in other places around the city. There are less good options if one lives downtown and I not talking about being able to get there. I'm talking about 4 hours on a bus and nightmare weekend issues, etc.

[Juice]

Not so. If you live in Hyde Park for example and don't want to go to CPS you can go to St. Mary's and it is right there in the area. That is one example but there are plenty around the city. There is not really a good school close to downtown as an option so the busing and carpooling type things would be and are far worse if one were to live downtown.

Kilgour is a good option for kids there too.

[spazzrico]

Regarding CPS: can anybody point to examples of larger city schools that are actually good? Is there a successful model of this working in a city with similar demographic and income statistics to Cincinnati? I feel like in most of the cities I have some familiarity with the city schools are generally not very good.

I don't really see that as being a real barrier to the development of downtown, though. If you live in the city limits and don't want to send your kids to public schools you send them to private schools like many residents of areas like Hyde Park and Mt. Lookout do.

I'm in favor of fixing CPS but I'm not sure how feasible it is and I'm not sure it's really necessary for downtown's continued development (although it certainly wouldn't hurt!).

Walnut Hills was just named #1 HS in the state (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120513/NEWS0102/305130068/What-s-behind-Walnut-Hills-No-1-ranking-). Is this what you were looking for?

The thing about the schools is that I believe it will be a lagging indicator of redevelopment. There will need to be a critical mass of wealthier citizens with a vested interest in better schools for them to show the kind of improvement that is truly needed.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

There is not really a good school close to downtown as an option so the busing and carpooling type things would be and are far worse if one were to live downtown.

For high schools, here are some off the top of my head:

Walnut Hills is a great school not far from downtown.
SCPA
Summit not far
St Ursula not far
Purcell Marian not far

[PMI]

My freshman year of high school I got a ride to where I took the bus, which I took to metro, which I rode to Union Station, from which I walked the few blocks to my school. I did the same thing in reverse after school. When I was older I carpooled and drove down, having to leave myself a good 75 minutes if I wanted to come close to making the 8:10 bell. Cincinnati doesn't have any traffic, _LH. There are school buses and other forms of public transportation. It may cost a little more, but going to the better schools almost always does. Kids from downtown can get to schools outside their neighborhoods.

Topic Status: Covered.

[PM Thor]

Downtown is about the only area in town with bus service that lets you get nearly anywhere you need to go. Why would a school pay for a separate bus service?

The question is moot. Nothing about the current downtown development is aimed at getting families with school aged children living in the CBD or OTR. The suburbs do a very nice job meeting the needs of those families.

That's not true. SCPA is downtown and brand new, Taft is brand spanking new (and has corporate "sponsorship") and Porter HaYs is new too. Sure, those aren't great options, but there is an effort being made to improve the abysmal history there.

I HATE dayton.

[_LH]

For high schools, here are some off the top of my head:

Walnut Hills is a great school not far from downtown.
SCPA
Summit not far
St Ursula not far
Purcell Marian not far

I was not really talking about high schools but congrats on your first non trolling post in this thread.

[paulxu]

Now maybe you are right about Summit but like you said it would be a marathon type trip that I can't imagine someone would do to a 6 year old.


There are less good options if one lives downtown and I not talking about being able to get there. I'm talking about 4 hours on a bus and nightmare weekend issues, etc.

I have no dog in this hunt. But, I am interested in the conversation. And have a question.

Do you live in Cincinnati?

Distance from 4th & Vine to Summit Country Day School = 4.13 miles.
Estimated driving time = 8 minutes

[_LH]

My freshman year of high school I got a ride to where I took the bus, which I took to metro, which I rode to Union Station, from which I walked the few blocks to my school. I did the same thing in reverse after school. When I was older I carpooled and drove down, having to leave myself a good 75 minutes if I wanted to come close to making the 8:10 bell. Cincinnati doesn't have any traffic, _LH. There are school buses and other forms of public transportation. It may cost a little more, but going to the better schools almost always does. Kids from downtown can get to schools outside their neighborhoods.

Topic Status: Covered.

That's great for a 14 or 15 year old but not for a 5 or 6 year. Nice try though.

[_LH]

I have no dog in this hunt. But, I am interested in the conversation. And have a question.

Do you live in Cincinnati?

Distance from 4th & Vine to Summit Country Day School = 4.13 miles.
Estimated driving time = 8 minutes

Do you know the difference in tuition from Summit to say St. Mary's? Are you clueless? Summit is not really an option for most people.

Also that does not solve for the weekends and after school type stuff anyway.

[paulxu]

Do you know the difference in tuition from Summit to say St. Mary's? Are you clueless?

Also that does not solve for the weekends and after school type stuff anyway.

You did not answer my question. Do you live in Cincinnati?

This was a discussion about distances, transportation challenges, kids riding buses for 4 hours a day, etc.

I'm guessing you don't live there since you don't understand basic distance factors.

[_LH]

You did not answer my question. Do you live in Cincinnati?

This was a discussion about distances, transportation challenges, kids riding buses for 8 hours a day, etc.

I'm guessing you don't live there since you don't understand basic distance factors.

I do and what if the kid needs to take a bus. Are you sure the time frame is the same?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I was not really talking about high schools but congrats on your first non trolling post in this thread.

Why are you so cranky today? You are usually such a bundle of sunshine.

You said schools. Last I checked high schools are considered schools.

Nice Try
Sorry
Thanks
Wake up!

[_LH]

Why are you so cranky today? You are usually such a bundle of sunshine.

You said schools. Last I checked high schools are considered schools.

Nice Try
Sorry
Thanks
Wake up!

That's why I clarified it. If you read on you'd see we have been talking about little kids.

[LadyMuskie]

Do you know the difference in tuition from Summit to say St. Mary's? Are you clueless? Summit is not really an option for most people.

Also that does not solve for the weekends and after school type stuff anyway.

What weekends and after school stuff are you worried about? If a child lives in Westwood and attends SCPA, how many of her classmates do you imagine live within walking distance of her house. Even if one other student does live close by, who's to say the kids and/or parents get along and would agree to a carpool or engage in friendly activities.

Basically, what happens in CPS now is that it is like suburban high schools, but at the elementary school level. Kids from all over the district converge at the schools and you go from there. I had friends at my high school who didn't attend my grade school, and we were still able to hang out on the weekends - even before we had our driving licenses. The same is true for CPS elementary schools - it just starts earlier. In some ways, you wind up with more friends because you have those in your neighborhood and those at your school and you get to experience more diversity.

[PMI]

Do you know the difference in tuition from Summit to say St. Mary's? Are you clueless? Summit is not really an option for most people.

Also that does not solve for the weekends and after school type stuff anyway.

You'll have to forgive me, I don't read most of your posts for obvious reasons.

Fine, grade school then. It's like anything else. If the kids have parents with money who really want them to go to better schools than their public school or nearby private school(s) offer, they make the sacrifices of time, money, and travel. I had kids in my grade school class from pretty damn far away. They went to school and played sports with me. What's your argument again? And again, it's not like there's traffic in Cincinnati, so they've got that going for them.

[_LH]

What weekends and after school stuff are you worried about?

Pretty much the hundred or so events that take place after school hours and on the weekends.

[_LH]

You'll have to forgive me, I don't read most of your posts for obvious reasons.

Fine, grade school then. It's like anything else. If the kids have parents with money who really want them to go to better schools than their public school or nearby private school(s) offer, they make the sacrifices of time, money, and travel. I had kids in my grade school class from pretty damn far away. They went to school and played sports with me. What's your argument again? And again, it's not like there's traffic in Cincinnati, so they've got that going for them.

I really don't care if you read my posts or not. You are obviously clueless on this and we will just leave it at that.

[LadyMuskie]

Pretty much the hundred or so events that take place after school hours and on the weekends.

Did you bother to read the rest of my post? Because I covered your concerns!

[_LH]

Did you bother to read the rest of my post? Because I covered your concerns!

I did and no..you did not.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

LH, Lady answered your questions.

By the way, I heard Mark McGwire did steroids. Is that true _LH?

[LadyMuskie]

I did and no..you did not.

Then you have reading comprehension problems that I cannot solve for you.

[_LH]

LH, Lady answered your questions.

By the way, I heard Mark McGwire did steroids. Is that true _LH?

No..she did not but thanks for one more troll.

I believe McGwire admitted he did.

[_LH]

Then you have reading comprehension problems that I cannot solve for you.

Nope but you did not "solve" anything. I'd say most want to and typically do live close to their kid's school for obvious reasons and living downtown makes this difficult to do.

[LadyMuskie]

Nope but you did not "solve" anything. I'd say most want to and typically do live close to their kid's school for obvious reasons and living downtown makes this difficult to do.

You can say it, but it doesn't make it true. I can say that unicorns fly around my house at night, but it doesn't mean that I'm right.

[_LH]

You can say it, but it doesn't make it true. I can say that unicorns fly around my house at night, but it doesn't mean that I'm right.

But it is true. Sorry.

[LadyMuskie]

But it is true. Sorry.

Dude! How do you know that unicorns fly around my house at night? Are you stalking me?

[_LH]

Dude! How do you know that unicorns fly around my house at night? Are you stalking me?

I figured you or one of the trolls would reply with someting like that. ;)

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

But it is true. Sorry.

Why do you say Unicorns fly around Lady's house?

[_LH]

Why do you say Unicorns fly around Lady's house?

Enter the troll I mentioned above.

[LadyMuskie]

Why do you say Unicorns fly around Lady's house?

He's stalking me apparently.

[paulxu]

I do and what if the kid needs to take a bus. Are you sure the time frame is the same?

Cincinnati Metro for example lists the ride time from Govnt Sqaure to Mt Lookout Square as 17 minutes.

I don't think you really live in Cincinnati.

[_LH]

Cincinnati Metro for example lists the ride time from Govnt Sqaure to Mt Lookout Square as 17 minutes.

I don't think you really live in Cincinnati.

I do and I'd never put my 5 year old on Metro alone.

[LadyMuskie]

I do and I'd never put my 5 year old on Metro alone.

You wouldn't have to because CPS would provide a bus from the district to bus your child to his/her school.

Do you live in CPS district?

[paulxu]

I do and I'd never put my 5 year old on Metro alone.

Sorry. Not convinced you do, if you don't understand basic distances from downtown to Hyde Park.

But I admire your ability to switch subjects when you lose the point.

[_LH]

Cincinnati Metro for example lists the ride time from Govnt Sqaure to Mt Lookout Square as 17 minutes.

I don't think you really live in Cincinnati.

I do and I'd never put my 5 year old on Metro alone.

[PMI]

I do and I'd never put my 5 year old on Metro alone.

Well then you, your wife, or the nanny have to ride with him. Again, sending your kids to better schools further away takes sacrifice. This is not an issue exclusive to Over the Rhine. Again, what was your original point? I didn't bother trying to dig it up and translate it from _LH to English.

[_LH]

Well then you, your wife, or the nanny have to ride with him. Again, sending your kids to better schools further away takes sacrifice. This is not an issue exclusive to Over the Rhine. Again, what was your original point? I didn't bother trying to dig it up and translate it from _LH to English.

You are obviously ignorant to the conversation so just stay away.

[paulxu]

Again, what was your original point?

Pretty simple: original point = 4 hour bus ride from downtown to Hyde Park

Finds out bus ride is 17 minutes = change subject.

[_LH]

Pretty simple: original point = 4 hour bus ride from downtown to Hyde Park

Finds out bus ride is 17 minutes = change subject.

Nope. Never said it was a 4 hour bus ride. I also did not change the subject.

Why lie?

[paulxu]

I'm talking about 4 hours on a bus .


Nope. Never said it was a 4 hour bus ride.

Well, OK then.

[_LH]

Well, OK then.

I never said it was a 4 hour bus ride to the destination you listed but nice try.

[UnCaged]

This
Thread
Is
All
Things
Awful
And
Terrific

Just so I can get a better read on this, is LH arguing the unfairness/inadequate CPS system based on all kids in Cincinnati due to the situation surrounding his 5 year old child? As in, all families in Cincinnati feel the same way based on his famly's issues? Please tell me that's what the gist of this argument is....because it's now on 220+ responses and seems to only be getting better.

[LadyMuskie]

This
Thread
Is
All
Things
Awful
And
Terrific

Just so I can get a better read on this, is LH arguing the unfairness/inadequate CPS system based on all kids in Cincinnati due to the situation surrounding his 5 year old child? As in, all families in Cincinnati feel the same way based on his famly's issues? Please tell me that's what the gist of this argument is....because it's now on 220+ responses and seems to only be getting better.

It might be that. Who really knows?!? I think at this point he's just arguing to argue because his posts are making less and less sense in the face of proof that he's wrong.

[danaandvictory]

Nope. Never said it was a 4 hour bus ride. I also did not change the subject.


God, what a completely obtuse asshole.

I took the bus on Opening Day from Madisonville to Government Square. Not the express. It took 40 minutes. There were tons of kids riding in to Withrow and other schools on the way.

Just because you are a pants-pissing baby doesn't mean the rest of us are.

[Kahns Krazy]

That's not true. SCPA is downtown and brand new, Taft is brand spanking new (and has corporate "sponsorship") and Porter HaYs is new too. Sure, those aren't great options, but there is an effort being made to improve the abysmal history there.

I HATE dayton.

I don't know much about Taft, but I'm not disagreeing with you. SCPA's reputation is outstanding, and the new building is impressive to look at. In my mind, SCPA isn't really a neighborhood draw school. Its presence in the area is important, and I did overlook it when I was rattling off the new investments in the area.

What I was really referring to is living in the CBD/OTR/PEN area as defined by DCI. The new living spaces are not really being designed for families with school age children. 88% of the units sold in the last 5 years have been condos. The amenities being touted in the area (bars, restaurants and boutique retail) aren't really aimed at families with school age children. The downtown living really isn't competing with suburb living for families with children between 4-16. My point is that a lack of good schools and/or bussing in the area is not a detriment to the current phase of downtown development.

That could change long term as the early adopters and the investments make the area safer and more appealing to families. I think that's a long way away though.

[_LH]

God, what a completely obtuse asshole.

I took the bus on Opening Day from Madisonville to Government Square. Not the express. It took 40 minutes. There were tons of kids riding in to Withrow and other schools on the way.

Just because you are a pants-pissing baby doesn't mean the rest of us are.

You are a moron. Read what I wrote before ignorantly commenting.

[_LH]

It might be that. Who really knows?!? I think at this point he's just arguing to argue because his posts are making less and less sense in the face of proof that he's wrong.

I've not be wrong on any of it though.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

There is not really a good school close to downtown as an option so the busing and carpooling type things would be and are far worse if one were to live downtown.


For high schools, here are some off the top of my head:

Walnut Hills is a great school not far from downtown.
SCPA
Summit not far
St Ursula not far
Purcell Marian not far


That's why I clarified it. If you read on you'd see we have been talking about little kids.


Why are you so cranky today? You are usually such a bundle of sunshine.

You said schools. Last I checked high schools are considered schools.

Nice Try
Sorry
Thanks
Wake up!

You didn't clarify it. You conveniently changed the subject to little kids after you realized there were some good schools in close proximity to downtown

Nice try

[_LH]

You didn't clarify it. You conveniently changed the subject to little kids after you realized there were some good schools in close proximity to downtown

Nice try

I was always talking about young kids and not high school kids but nice try.

[PMI]

Why are you talking about young kids?

[_LH]

Why are you talking about young kids?

Why did your mind go there?

[paulxu]

Apparently the 4 hour bus ride is Cinti - Toledo.
Or maybe Cinti - Cleveland.

[spazzrico]

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/418787_o.gif