Why does Butler hate us?

[Section 200]

I was interested in what the Butler folks thought about joining the A-10; did a search and found the BU Hoops board. I didn't realize that we were enemy #1 for Butler. I'm old and remember them as a typical MCC foe - we'd usually win at the Garden & then have a close game on the road (Butler, SLU, Detroit, Evansville, etc). When we left the MCC I didn't think about Butler until their amazing run to the finals x2.

I realize that a message board may not represent well but Butler seems to look at us like OSU looks at Michigan. If their admin has one third the passion of the fans I expect them to join immediately.

Anyway, Dayton & UC hate us, and now Butler. We must be doing something right! Beat ND!

[BandAid]

We broke a water fountain. Which usually isn't that big of a deal, but that fountain was the biggest addition installed in Hinkle since it was built.

[vee4xu]

Today, Brad Stevens said that both Xavier and Memphis are capable of deep runs in the tournament. Oh wait, that's probably because he wants to escape the Horizon League for either the A-10 or CUSA.

[joe titan]

The serious reply includes points such as: geographic proximity, recruiting similar markets/players- Butler has had Mike Marshall, Joel Cornett, Mike Monserat all GCL while XU has had Indy guys galore, fanbase interaction w/Indy XU alums, Thad Matta. Butler holds some grudge since XU pulled out of MCC to A 10 which essentially collapsed a fairly good league.

Finally, where else could Butler turn to find a true nonconference rival ?

[X-band '01]

Butler didn't even get Monserez until Notre Dame ran him off.

[xnatic03]

Notre Dame didn't run him off. He hated Doherty. He said he was transferring and a week later Doherty left for UNC.

[Masterofreality]

Why do I not care?

[waggy]

The biggest problem was Thad leaving for X.

[Muskied]

I was interested in what the Butler folks thought about joining the A-10; did a search and found the BU Hoops board. I didn't realize that we were enemy #1 for Butler. I'm old and remember them as a typical MCC foe - we'd usually win at the Garden & then have a close game on the road (Butler, SLU, Detroit, Evansville, etc). When we left the MCC I didn't think about Butler until their amazing run to the finals x2.

I realize that a message board may not represent well but Butler seems to look at us like OSU looks at Michigan. If their admin has one third the passion of the fans I expect them to join immediately.

Anyway, Dayton & UC hate us, and now Butler. We must be doing something right! Beat ND!

Your answer = they feel they have proven to be the better program, by beating us 2 years in a row, and going to back to back final fours. They have been tired of all the attention Xavier gets, and they find it frustrating that after the past 3 years, we still believe we are better, and their program is still considered at best on the same level with Xavier on a national level.

They feel they have been the best team in the state of Indiana and even midwest. The fact their facilities, coach, recruiting classes, chances at success aren't considered better drive them nuts. They feel Xavier = class less thugs at an inferior school and program, and the Butler way is clearly superior (see Lance Goss)

They probably feel like they shouldn't have to "settle" for the A10, and they should be considered ahead of Xavier for a bigger conference-

[MaurerHigh]

And here's their response to this thread...enjoy!

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/8550/Why-does-Butler-hate-us#.T190EZgepdo

[BBC 08]

Fifth post in brings up not shaking hands before tip off. Again, why does it even matter that they don't shake hands?

[Mrs. Garrett]

And yet they need us. We don't need them. They play in that shit conference where you have to win the automatic bid to go to the tourney. Now they want to upgrade to be like us.

[xudash]

And here's their response to this thread...enjoy!

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/8550/Why-does-Butler-hate-us#.T190EZgepdo

Could they be more petty!

Seriously, the under currents of jealousy are rampant in their posts.

They should value their two F4 runs. Good for them.

Otherwise, the idea that Butler holds its student-athletes in some kind of higher, better place than Xavier holds its kids is truly funny.

And the fact remains that we have better facilities, draw better, beat them mercilessly in most years and took one of their coaches.

Beyond that, one of their less than stellar fans seems to have a real hard on for Cincinnati and Ohio.

[Bmuskie]

I have to say that if the Butler fan's major interaction with Xavier fans is Xavierhoops.com, then I too would think that all Xavier fans are classless idiots.

[Jumpy]

I have to say that if the Butler fan's major interaction with Xavier fans is Xavierhoops.com, then I too would think that all Xavier fans are classless idiots.

Really? You're going to throw the entire board community here under the bus like that?

[xudash]

I have to say that if the Butler fan's major interaction with Xavier fans is Xavierhoops.com, then I too would think that all Xavier fans are classless idiots.

If you want to go there, then you would have to agree that Butler fans are classless idiots as well.

[West is Best]

And here's their response to this thread...enjoy!

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/8550/Why-does-Butler-hate-us#.T190EZgepdo


Maybe we should rephrase the question... do Butler's intelligent fans hate us?

[LadyMuskie]

Reading that thread from their board has just made me realize that Butler fans are version 2.0 of dayton fans. One of their "complaints" is that Tu didn't shake hands with the Butler team before the game. (sniffle) Boo hoo. I hope the tender hearts of the Butler players can mend over time. :rolleyes: Then they complain about the treatment of firedupkaren over here, whilst simultaneously making fun of Xavier posters. Hypocritical much?

I'm going to thoroughly enjoy beating them twice a year if they ever manage to yank themselves out of the league they're in now and join a real league.

[LadyMuskie]

Maybe we should rephrase the question... do Butler's intelligent fans hate us?

Do they have any?

[coasterville95]

So the fans don't like Xavier because of a mesasage board of passionate fans.

Pat yourselves on the backs guys and gals, we must be doing something right! At least the school is, if they have to resort to citing a group of fans who may or may not even be indicative of the fan base in general as being the worst thing about our program.

[xudash]

So the fans don't like Xavier because of a mesasage board of passionate fans.

Pat yourselves on the backs guys and gals, we must be doing something right! At least the school is, if they have to resort to citing a group of fans who may or may not even be indicative of the fan base in general as being the worst thing about our program.

Public reps to go with the private ones.

A little perspective goes a long way.

[boozehound]

Reading that thread from their board has just made me realize that Butler fans are version 2.0 of dayton fans. One of their "complaints" is that Tu didn't shake hands with the Butler team before the game. (sniffle) Boo hoo. I hope the tender hearts of the Butler players can mend over time. :rolleyes: Then they complain about the treatment of firedupkaren over here, whilst simultaneously making fun of Xavier posters. Hypocritical much?

I'm going to thoroughly enjoy beating them twice a year if they ever manage to yank themselves out of the league they're in now and join a real league.

Who even notices who shakes hands during the game? I didn't know that Tu didn't shake hands until other people brought it up. Are some fans watching the pregame handshake like a hawk to make sure everybody shakes hands?

[LyonsIsFlyin]

That thread is hilarious.

They talk about our jealousy (which I'm not going to lie, I'm VERY jealous of their 2 runs, that would have been amazing to experience) while it is more than obvious they are jealous of our success, as they should be.

There were some talking about fans which I think is truly laughable. All Xavier fans aren't saints but I'll be damned if they say we have bad fans in any way. I'll try to find my post on my experience at Butler for a game, which I'm sure at the time I was heated about due to its horribleness, but years afterward I'd never say their fan base was bad due to that experience.

Bottom line, they need us and the A10. We're already here, obviously don't need them.

[XUglow]

I have to say that if the Butler fan's major interaction with Xavier fans is Xavierhoops.com, then I too would think that all Xavier fans are classless idiots.

ALL? Seriously? Only some of our fans are classless idiots.

We have some very classy idiots, a few smart people that are pretty classless, and you may call me a homer for this, but we have a few fans with brains that are always classy. I can't name them off of the top of my head, but I am sure that we have some.

[wkrq59]

I do not now and never will support the idea of Butler in the A10. Old Dominion, VCU. damn near anybody on the East Coast except Butler would be a better addition. Really. Holy Cross. Boston University. Anybody but Butler. They're Dayton without the history of achievement.:eek::mad::confused:

[Xpectations]

Maybe we should rephrase the question... do Butler's intelligent fans hate us?

One of them like us. The other, not so much.

[Blue Blooded-05]

Seriously...

If I ever resort to using the "class" argument as justification for why I dislike like a group of people... don't ask, just shoot me.

Let's assume for a minute the word "class" had a universal definition... making the claim that the collective members of one fan base are definitively "classier" than the collective members of another fan base is a statement that cannot be proven or disproven. It is merely a rallying cry that has become all too familiar in the age of message boards used by people who want to feel good about themselves again at the expense of someone else. It's no different than a woman calling Brooklyn Decker fat.

Michigan used it excessively throughout the past decade against Ohio State. Dayton has used it excessively against Xavier. Yankees fans began using it against the Red Sox in 2004... the list goes on and on...

The shame of this is that Butler has nothing to ashamed of and thus should not feel the need to be caddy. The only thing I can think of is they must be bored in their conference and looking for an upgrade.

I would welcome them to the A-10.

[Muskiefornia]

Their win over Pitt was an embarrassment to the sport of basketball. The year before they were also pretty lucky (I'd have to look at whole bracket) but I recall them beating a Cuse team without Arinze Onawaku. Their current situation bolsters the point they were a fluke and will not compete with Xavier down the road.

[bleedXblue]

Butler would be a good addition to the league and would add another rivalry to the region.

I have no idea why anyone would disparage another university. We're not perfect and they're not perfect. Nor is any university or program perfect
.
Can we agree to move past the pettiness ?

Pinning one incident on X and labeling us as a result of that is truly idiotic.

Kind of reminds me off the press and how they blew the whole thing out of proportion.

[golfitup]

The weird thing about Butler, to me at least, is that they don't seem to have many fans. They only got a little over 7,000 for our game earlier this year. And that was when we were in the top 10.

[X Communicator]

We broke a water fountain. Which usually isn't that big of a deal, but that fountain was the biggest addition installed in Hinkle since it was built.

Your Pontiff is sending Butler a check for ten bucks toward the Hinkle Hall renovation campaign.

Will one of you please send them five bucks? That'll put 'em over the top.

Also, Notre Dame blows. Just thought it needed to be said.

[X Communicator]

Fifth post in brings up not shaking hands before tip off. Again, why does it even matter that they don't shake hands?

Your Holy Fuehrer wouldn't shake their hands, either. You don't know where those hands have been.

Okay, that's enough posting for tonight.

[LadyMuskie]

Your Pontiff is sending Butler a check for ten bucks toward the Hinkle Hall renovation campaign.

Will one of you please send them five bucks? That'll put 'em over the top.

Also, Notre Dame blows. Just thought it needed to be said.

I wanted to send them money, but they mentioned in their thread that we're all morons, so I can't be sure that I'd be able to count my money correctly. Darn. Too bad for Hinkle :(

[UnCaged]

What the he!! was all that garbage? I checked out their link and good lord was it pitiful.
No hand shakes from Tu? Wah.
We owe a lot of money for Cintas, thus we bring in thugs. What?
This: Three different starting point guards, in three consecutive years, all busted on drug charges. ( Now that's an NCAA record no one will ever break). Um, did I get abducted by an alien spaceship for 3 years? What on Earth are they talking about here?

I think Butler would be a good addition bc they've proven to be a better than average A10 team during the past 8-10 years. However, their "historic" sh!thole is an embarassment to all Division I basketball programs. They have a very decent collection of ahole fans who showed some utter lack of class during our game there in 2009 (I was there, it was Shootout Brawl bad in the stands, their alumni and students were first class inbred dolts). And they should be happy if they get the chance to play X twice a year. While it's probably the cats pajamas to take on Detroit-Mercy and Indiana State every year, they would be taking a BIG step up if the A10 offered a spot.

Be happy for the offer if you get it, but prepare yourself for a similar record against X as UD has had to deal with. Flagship, get used to it.

[sweet16]

This: Three different starting point guards, in three consecutive years, all busted on drug charges. ( Now that's an NCAA record no one will ever break). Um, did I get abducted by an alien spaceship for 3 years? What on Earth are they talking about here?

I guess they're referring to Rose, Finn and Lavender but it would appear that they have mistated and/or misrepresented some of the facts.

[butler312]

This might be suicide to post in this thread, but if you are looking for a serious answer, I'll give you one. First off, the entire reputation of Xavier is basically the exact opposite of Butler. It's probably the biggest reason. Butler fans embrace the student first student-athlete. We had 2 freshman get suspended for a game earlier just for skipping a single class. Getting in a brawl in a game simply wouldn't be tolerated and you would never hear Butler players refer to themselves as gangsters. Butler fans also seem to embrace the mid major role, while Xavier runs away from it. Outside of being successful non-BCS programs, the two basketball programs have pretty much nothing in common.

Then you have the whole "clock malfunction" game. Neither side made any friends in that game. You guys hate us more for it because you feel you got screwed. We hate you more because the players further cemented that thug reputation and we simply got annoyed at the constant complaining (which is still continuing) about a call that was verified to have been correct by the NCAA themselves (I'm not here to continue this debate either, and I wont, I'm just making a point).

And finally, you guys pretty much act like a BCS school. Most BCS school fans in general just irritate the hell out of us. Talk smack all the time about how your players are so much more talented, so much more athletic, etc, etc. If you read jokes about how teams are going to "thunderdunk" all over us, that's the type of talk we are referring to. Then if you lose in fly all the tons of excuses and everyone just belittles Butler instead of giving us any type of credit (go read the boards of teams like Syracuse and Pitt from back when we beat them to see some great examples). Sure, there are fans from every school who do this, but it always seems to be much worse with BCS teams. When we beat teams like Murray State we were respected more than anything. You guys get grouped in with BCS teams in that regard.

[Cincypunk.org]

Ah, Butler fans are showing a case of little brother syndrome. Relax Butler, X fans respect you and your program. Now get out of here with that crap that X is made up of thugs and gangsters.

Student athletes? We have those. Check out our graduation rate.

[PMI]

This might be suicide to post in this thread, but if you are looking for a serious answer, I'll give you one. First off, the entire reputation of Xavier is basically the exact opposite of Butler. It's probably the biggest reason. Butler fans embrace the student first student-athlete. We had 2 freshman get suspended for a game earlier just for skipping a single class. Getting in a brawl in a game simply wouldn't be tolerated and you would never hear Butler players refer to themselves as gangsters. Butler fans also seem to embrace the mid major role, while Xavier runs away from it. Outside of being successful non-BCS programs, the two basketball programs have pretty much nothing in common.

Then you have the whole "clock malfunction" game. Neither side made any friends in that game. You guys hate us more for it because you feel you got screwed. We hate you more because the players further cemented that thug reputation and we simply got annoyed at the constant complaining (which is still continuing) about a call that was verified to have been correct by the NCAA themselves (I'm not here to continue this debate either, and I wont, I'm just making a point).

And finally, you guys pretty much act like a BCS school. Most BCS school fans in general just irritate the hell out of us. Talk smack all the time about how your players are so much more talented, so much more athletic, etc, etc. If you read jokes about how teams are going to "thunderdunk" all over us, that's the type of talk we are referring to. Then if you lose in fly all the tons of excuses and everyone just belittles Butler instead of giving us any type of credit (go read the boards of teams like Syracuse and Pitt from back when we beat them to see some great examples). Sure, there are fans from every school who do this, but it always seems to be much worse with BCS teams. When we beat teams like Murray State we were respected more than anything. You guys get grouped in with BCS teams in that regard.

How many straight senior student-athletes have you guys graduated? Ours sits in the mid 80s right now and goes back to 1986. Don't give me that condescending inaccurate bullshit about Xavier not having student-athletes. Every school in the tournament not named Duke or Harvard would take our track record.

Butler fans love their high horses, and like many other fans, act as if they're program is completely immune to getting into a fight on the court. A shoving match which none of us are proud of was turned into a fight by REAL thugs (not future college graduates who used the term "gangsta" only to get taken completely out of context by people a media that controls the minds of people like you) when they started throwing punches. In case you missed it, the school suspended the guys involved with heavier punishments than has ever been seen before in the NCAA in similar cases, as well as going COMPLETELY overboard with its apologizing and so forth.

Your view of our school and program is so completely warped it's not even funny. It's no surprise our fans don't like you guys, because you're a bunch of pompous, condescending douche bags who think you can play the class and academic cards against us when that's simply laughable to anyone who's ever been around you guys. You guys don't know our program and better than I know Japanese, yet you hold onto your moronic views of it, probably because that's the way you've been taught seeing as to how most of you have probably never been off the cornfields to see the real world outside the middle of Indiana before. See, I can generalize too.

Just fucking wait until one of Brad Steven's choir boys get into some trouble. Ask dayton fans how it feels to have the class card backfire in your face, because whether you pricks want to admit it or not, shit happens to every program. We're an easy target right now, but don't forget this when your time comes.

[_LH]

This might be suicide to post in this thread, but if you are looking for a serious answer, I'll give you one. First off, the entire reputation of Xavier is basically the exact opposite of Butler. It's probably the biggest reason. Butler fans embrace the student first student-athlete. We had 2 freshman get suspended for a game earlier just for skipping a single class. Getting in a brawl in a game simply wouldn't be tolerated and you would never hear Butler players refer to themselves as gangsters. Butler fans also seem to embrace the mid major role, while Xavier runs away from it. Outside of being successful non-BCS programs, the two basketball programs have pretty much nothing in common.

This ignorant belief by Butler (and some UD fans for that matter) really pisses me off. XU's reputation to the student athlete first is SECOND to NONE, including Butler's. To say XU's reputation in that regard is the exact opposite of Butler's is pure ignorance. XU has routinely shown excellent on the court players the "door" because they did not make the committment in the classroom. Mind you, many were still eligible by NCAA standards but not up to Xavier standards.

There have been players that have gotten in trouble with the law for DUI's or pot possession over the years and they were dealt with more severely than what the NCAA would demand or the court of law demanded. Under Prosser, two players were removed for XU's first round NCAA game in 1995 for getting in a bar fight. The two players were a starter and our 6th man. XU lost the game by 5 points and the charges against both were eventually dropped but XU took the high road, like they always do, and suspended the players.

I think Butler fans have XU confused with UC in the reputation department. Do a little research and stop believing that Butler holds their players to some higher standard than XU does because that is simply not the case.

Tu and Lyons's comments were regretable and they were punished for them. If you re-read what Tu actually said, his comment, while not the image XU wants to send, was not that big of a deal. If he used the word "warrior" instead, no one would have cared and "warrior" is what he meant.

Butler did steal the game on the clock malfunction. Butler flat out cheated. There is no disputing that.

[kyxu]

We had 2 freshman get suspended for a game earlier just for skipping a single class.

Bravo. Xavier players don't miss class.

[PMI]

Bravo. Xavier players don't miss class.

Yea, and last I checked, we had a player get suspended pre-season for something that all indications point to being even less of a big deal than skipping class. Butler fans make up "facts" almost as amusingly as dayton fans. Almost.

[butler312]

Bravo. Xavier players don't miss class.

The point was that Butler players received the same suspension for missing a single class as some Xavier players did for being involved in a fight (and longer than a player who destroys public property while leaving the floor). How many times did you skip class in college? I'm sure most of you have, most college students do, especially those easy freshman classes that lots of people can blow off and still get an A. It's usually no big deal.

But anyways, I never meant to question Xaviers ability to graduate students. My main focus there was that gangster or thug mentality or whatever you want to call it. I don't care how you want to spin it, Xavier players were condoning there fight. And I'm not sure how you consider 1-4 games for being involved in a fight a serious punishment. And it's not just that one isolated incident. Something happens every year. I guarantee you that if a Butler player ever throws punches on the court that he will be gone for a lot longer than that. And if he isn't, Butler fans will be complaining about it.

[PMI]

The point was that Butler players received the same suspension for missing a single class as some Xavier players did for being involved in a fight (and longer than a player who destroys public property while leaving the floor). How many times did you skip class in college? I'm sure most of you have, most college students do, especially those easy freshman classes that lots of people can blow off and still get an A. It's usually no big deal.

But anyways, I never meant to question Xaviers ability to graduate students. My main focus there was that gangster or thug mentality or whatever you want to call it. I don't care how you want to spin it, Xavier players were condoning there fight. And I'm not sure how you consider 1-4 games for being involved in a fight a serious punishment. I guarantee you that if a Butler player ever throws punches on the court that he will be gone for a lot longer than that. And if he isn't, Butler fans will be complaining about it.

Really? Point to me one Xavier player who fought who wasn't suspended multiple games? Then point to me a brawl in NCAA history (yes, there have been worse) with anywhere near the suspensions handed down in this one. Shit, I saw an Oregon player straight up jack a kid in the face in the middle of a game in a conference tournament and he was back for the NCAA tournament. I didn't hear any high horse media members for that one.

Bottom line: in any of the other three main sports, a similar "brawl" would be dismissed by everyone, yet people want to persecute our kids for getting caught up in a rivalry, only to then have their rivals escalate a shoving match into a fight.

Shit, why am I even explaining this to a Butler fan? Or still talking about it? We have real basketball to play still. You obviously have a warped view of things and I don't owe you the favor of enlightening your simple mind.

[_LH]

The point was that Butler players received the same suspension for missing a single class as some Xavier players did for being involved in a fight (and longer than a player who destroys public property while leaving the floor). How many times did you skip class in college? I'm sure most of you have, most college students do, especially those easy freshman classes that lots of people can blow off and still get an A. It's usually no big deal.

But anyways, I never meant to question Xaviers ability to graduate students. My main focus there was that gangster or thug mentality or whatever you want to call it. I don't care how you want to spin it, Xavier players were condoning there fight. And I'm not sure how you consider 1-4 games for being involved in a fight a serious punishment. And it's not just that one isolated incident. Something happens every year. I guarantee you that if a Butler player ever throws punches on the court that he will be gone for a lot longer than that. And if he isn't, Butler fans will be complaining about it.

Did you even see what PMI and I wrote. You are way off base here.

Check out what the NCAA punishment is for being in a fight. Lyons and Wells were the only two that were "fighting" and their punishment was far greater than the NCAA deems to be appropriate.

Holloway was suspended for one game for using a word. Again if he said "warrior" instead, he would not have been punished and no one, including ignorant high and mighty Butler fans would have thought he deserved one.

Like others have said, if an XU player misses class, they miss a game just like at Butler but XU players don't miss class.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Butler312,

This has been covered

[MCXU]

First off, the entire reputation of Xavier is basically the exact opposite of Butler.

So, Butler is known for their tiny, playdough like genitalia?

I honestly had not heard this before but I will remember to bring it up the next time I see Lance Goss.

[butler312]

Really? Point to me one Xavier player who fought who wasn't suspended multiple games? Then point to me a brawl in NCAA history (yes, there have been worse) with anywhere near the suspensions handed down in this one. Shit, I saw an Oregon player straight up jack a kid in the face in the middle of a game in a conference tournament and he was back for the NCAA tournament. I didn't hear any high horse media members for that one.

Bottom line: in any of the other three main sports, a similar "brawl" would be dismissed by everyone, yet people want to persecute our kids for getting caught up in a rivalry, only to then have their rivals escalate a shoving match into a fight.

Shit, why am I even explaining this to a Butler fan? Or still talking about it? We have real basketball to play still. You obviously have a warped view of things and I don't owe you the favor of enlightening your simple mind.

Uhm, ok. Tu Holloway was suspended for 1 game. The guy who is accused o instigating the entire fight. And do you think Butler fans (or most fans) accept that any other brawl is ok? We hate teams like Detroit too for guys like Eli Holmon as well. Cincinnati is worse than Xavier. And again, this is not an isolated incident. Something like this happens every year with Xavier (ok, maybe a generalization, but it happens quite a bit). Hell, when one of your players had to be held back from charging into the stands at a Butler fan it's going to be kind of hard to convince us that you aren't thugs.

[_LH]

Uhm, ok. Tu Holloway was suspended for 1 game. The guy who is accused o instigating the entire fight. And do you think Butler fans (or most fans) accept that any other brawl is ok? We hate teams like Detroit too for guys like Eli Holmon as well. Cincinnati is worse than Xavier. And again, this is not an isolated incident. Something like this happens every year with Xavier (ok, maybe a generalization, but it happens quite a bit). Hell, when one of your players had to be held back from charging into the stands at a Butler fan it's going to be kind of hard to convince us that you aren't thugs.

It actually is a rare thing, not even close to something that happens regularly. Give some examples, if you can.

Holloway did not start the fight. UC players did. Holloway, like many college, high school, grade school, NBA, rec league, etc. do from time to time, was talking some "trash", telling UC players that Cincinnati was his city and he owned them. Talk like that does not warrant UC players throwing fists and STARTING the fight.

[butler312]

It actually is a rare thing, not even close to something that happens regularly. Give some examples, if you can.

Holloway did not start the fight. UC players did. Holloway, like many college, high school, grade school, NBA, rec league, etc. players was telling UC players that Cincinnati was his city and we owned them. Talk like that does not warrant UC players throwing fists and STARTING the fight.

I'm not talking about a full out brawl, just general incidences. I'm pretty sure it's not even the first time those teams have thrown punches. Wasn't Frease suspended earlier in the year for something? You have the incident at Hinkle and drug charges that have already been mentioned. I'm pretty sure Xavier's reputation over the past 5 years for this type of stuff tops nearly all of the teams on our regular schedule.

[_LH]

I'm not talking about a full out brawl, just general incidences. I'm pretty sure it's not even the first time those teams have thrown punches. Wasn't Frease suspended earlier in the year for something? You have the incident at Hinkle and drug charges that have already been mentioned. I'm pretty sure Xavier's reputation over the past 5 years for this type of stuff tops nearly all of the teams on our regular schedule.

XU's reputation from those that know what the heck they are talking about is as good if not better than Butler's.

Frease was "suspended" for his grades slipping, he was eligible by the NCAA. You see, this is an incident of XU holding their players to a higher standard that you ignorantly believe does not take place at XU. If XU was the opposite of Butler like you ignorantly believe, Frease never would have been in any trouble.

The drug and DUI stuff is few and far between occurring over 20 or so years and each was dealt with far and above the standard, keeping with XU's high reputation.

The rivarly with UC is heated but there has not been a fight in decades.

So please, provide some actual examples for your ignorant beliefs.

[gladdenguy]

If you call Tu reinforcing the fact that he is the best in the city to the animals he was playing that day (because in fact they did it the year before), after just whooping their ass, while having to put up with a pee-on like Kirkpatrick say he wouldn't start on sUCks, as starting the fight, when he just reacted to a punk a$$ freshman grabbing his grill, then ok.

But because it resulted in two animals from sUCks throwing a sucker punch and stomping on heads, does not mean Tu Holloway should be blamed for it.

[kyxu]

I'm pretty sure Xavier's reputation over the past 5 years for this type of stuff tops nearly all of the teams on our regular schedule.

You play in the Horizon League, and then must play BYU 11 times before January.

But really, when I think of violent rivalries, it starts and ends with Butler-Detroit. They should really considering ending that series.

[butler312]

XU's reputation from those that know what the heck they are talking about is as good if not better than Butler's.

Frease was "suspended" for his grades slipping, he was eligible by the NCAA. You see, this is an incident of XU holding their players to a higher standard that you ignorantly believe does not take place at XU. If XU was the opposite of Butler like you ignorantly believe, Frease never would have been in any trouble.

The drug and DUI stuff is few and far between occurring over 20 or so years and each was dealt with far and above the standard, keeping with XU's high reputation.

The rivarly with UC is heated but there has not been a fight in decades.

So please, provide some actual examples for your ignorant beliefs.

LOL, you really think Xavier has a better reputation than Butler on this type of stuff. I'm pretty sure in the last 5 years the two Butler players that had to sit out game 1 due to 1 missed class is the only suspension they have had. I can't recall any others. But of course, that is far worse than a full out brawl, a suspension for failing (kudos to Xavier for suspending him for it, but that doesn't make it ok), and drug charges. I don't even know what else, I don't really follow Xavier basketball. Any one of those tops anything Butler has done.

I was just responding to why some Butler fans don't like Xavier, and doing so without a "Xavier sucks and their fans are classless and ignorant" type of comment. If a little of my information is incorrect, well, that is probably normal, since I don't follow the team, and yes, my opinion is based partially on how the media portrays the team. I know some incorrect information always gets spewed out in the Buck Futler threads every year too.

[kyxu]

Tu Holloway said some words, then more insensitive words at a press conference. Keep in mind, these incidents book-ended him being shoved in the face and having a basketball launched at his head. As a result, he was suspended for one game.

Lance Stephenson woofed at Xavier's bench the entire game two years ago. No one talked about that because Xavier didn't clear its bench to go fight him. Oh, and also because Xavier won that game.

Holloway didn't punch anyone. Didn't kick them when they were on the ground. But he did say some words. I don't think his suspension was a slap on the wrist necessarily.

[butler312]

You play in the Horizon League, and then must play BYU 11 times before January.

But really, when I think of violent rivalries, it stops and ends with Butler-Detroit. They should really considering ending that series.

And maybe that partly shapes fans opinions on Xavier, I don't know. As I mentioned, Detroit is another team with a similar reputation that a lot of fans dislike. I guess I'm not quite sure what you mean about ending that series though.

[PMI]

Uhm, ok. Tu Holloway was suspended for 1 game. The guy who is accused o instigating the entire fight. And do you think Butler fans (or most fans) accept that any other brawl is ok? We hate teams like Detroit too for guys like Eli Holmon as well. Cincinnati is worse than Xavier. And again, this is not an isolated incident. Something like this happens every year with Xavier (ok, maybe a generalization, but it happens quite a bit). Hell, when one of your players had to be held back from charging into the stands at a Butler fan it's going to be kind of hard to convince us that you aren't thugs.

Show me where anyone on either side has "accepted" the brawl, moron. And yes, this is an extremely isolated incident. It's been so fucking isolated that people act as if it's the Holocaust. Perhaps you should take a look at the behavior of your own fans and program in the incident you're referring to, unless you want to dig your hole even deeper by trying to convince us that an unprovoked Tu Holloway tried to stampede your fan base.

Any moron who thinks Xavier is a program of thugs is making their judgments from the far outside and doesn't know what they're talking about, but that would pretty much describe the Butler fans in a nutshell. Again, I can't wait for the inevitable day the Squeaky Stevens has to deal with something other than getting his dick sucked by the whole world. Just wait, buddy.

[_LH]

I was just responding to why some Butler fans don't like Xavier, and doing so without a "Xavier sucks and their fans are classless and ignorant" type of comment. If a little of my information is incorrect, well, that is probably normal, since I don't follow the team, and yes, my opinion is based partially on how the media portrays the team. I know some incorrect information always gets spewed out in the Buck Futler threads every year too.

More than a little of your information is incorrect. You entire view of XU's reputation on the national scale is incorrect. XU has one of the best reputations in all of college basketball no matter if you know about it or not.

And yes, outside of the "brawl" which was UC's fault, XU's reputation is as good if not better than Butler's as far as programs focusing on the student athlete and running things the "right way". Your contention that Butler is the opposite of XU in that regard is pure ignorance!

[kyxu]

I guess I'm not quite sure what you mean about ending that series though.

Sarcasm.

What kind of reputation does Detroit really have, other than that place where Dick Vitale used to coach? Are you sure this isn't some reputation Butler has created in its own mind? Maybe like some of the others?

[butler312]

Show me where anyone on either side has "accepted" the brawl, moron. And yes, this is an extremely isolated incident. It's been so fucking isolated that people act as if it's the Holocaust. Perhaps you should take a look at the behavior of your own fans and program in the incident you're referring to, unless you want to dig your hole even deeper by trying to convince us that an unprovoked Tu Holloway tried to stampede your fan base.

Any moron who thinks Xavier is a program of thugs is making their judgments from the far outside and doesn't know what they're talking about, but that would pretty much describe the Butler fans in a nutshell. Again, I can't wait for the inevitable day the Squeaky Stevens has to deal with something other than getting his dick sucked by the whole world. Just wait, buddy.

Tu defended the actions of the fight. And really, does it matter whatsoever what fans say? I'm pretty sure fans in every arena try to get under the skins of other players. You are telling me your student section doesn't try and come up with clever phrases or signs to insult other players?

[_LH]

Tu defended the actions of the fight. And really, does it matter whatsoever what fans say? I'm pretty sure fans in every arena try to get under the skins of other players. You are telling me your student section doesn't try and come up with clever phrases or signs to insult other players?

No..Tu said that he and his team won't back down from people.

[butler312]

Sarcasm.

What kind of reputation does Detroit really have, other than that placed where Dick Vitale used to coach? Are you sure this isn't some reputation Butler has created in its own mind? Maybe like some of the others?

Well, I knew it was sarcasm, but I guess I don't understand the direction it is going. But anyways, Holman has had multiple problems. He is the main one that comes to mind. I don't even know everything off the top of my head, but I know they've had a lot of problems with grades and ineligible players.

[_LH]

Well, I knew it was sarcasm, but I guess I don't understand the direction it is going. But anyways, Holman has had multiple problems. He is the main one that comes to mind. I don't even know everything off the top of my head, but I know they've had a lot of problems with grades and ineligible players.

You don't seem to know much about these things yet condemn both XU and Detroit using half truths and second hand stories.

I think it is time for you to leave.

[PMI]

I don't even know everything off the top of my head

This is the first intelligent comment you've made here. If you knew the kids you were talking about or anything about them, you'd know how wrong you are, but again, ignorance seems to be your thing. Thugs would not have been mentally affected by what happened the way our guys were. They will never hear the end of it, we know. Just remember the high horse you're on next time something negative happens within your program. And it will.

It will be very amusing when the ultra-classy Butler fans are knocked off their pedestal and start talking our of both sides of their asses again. You guys had one of the dirtiest players I've EVER seen in the college game, yet we are supposed to STILL apologize for getting punched in the face in a rivalry game against a couple of overly-pissed off animals. It's OK though because I'm sure all your guys are straight A model citizens off the court, and our guys, even though none of them have ever been arrested and all of them are on pace to graduate, are the thugs. Sure thing.

[Kahns Krazy]

This might be suicide to post in this thread, but if you are looking for a serious answer, I'll give you one. First off, the entire reputation of Xavier is basically the exact opposite of Butler. It's probably the biggest reason. Butler fans embrace the student first student-athlete. ....

Posting here as a fan of another school is not suicide.


Posting uninformed opinions as facts is.

[kyxu]

Well, I knew it was sarcasm, but I guess I don't understand the direction it is going. But anyways, Holman has had multiple problems. He is the main one that comes to mind. I don't even know everything off the top of my head, but I know they've had a lot of problems with grades and ineligible players.

Well, there you have it. You've won me over.

[SM#24]

Butler's 15 minutes are up. Instead of hating on X, they should be thanking us for leaving the MCC/Horizon and clearing a path to the NCAA tourney for them.

[Muskie]

I swear on some topics we sound like Marquette fans.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

[nuts4xu]

Wait a minute, are we actually debating the quality of programs with a fan of a team playing in the CBI?

What do those initials even stand for? Is this some kind of pre-pre-season tournament for next year?

I will engage in plenty of smack talk with Butler fans when the time comes, but unfortunately this will not be one of them. It is March, and Xavier plays in the NCAA tournament in March....not some obscure, third world country type basketball event where fans are paid to attend the games. I would rather concentrate on the classy fans from South Bend, at least they are still playing some meaningful basketball.

Good luck to Butler in the CBI ... whatever the hell that is.

[PMI]

I swear on some topics we sound like Marquette fans.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

I'm not quite sure I understand the analogy as I don't know much about Marquette fans, but if that entails not letting some Butler fan come on to this board and suggest to us that our program doesn't take its academics seriously, has thugs in it, and does things the wrong way, than call me a Golden Eagle. I know a lot of people don't like the anti-Butler sentiment some of us have, and that's totally fair, but this guy is straight shit-spewing and it's not right.

[Muskie]

I'm not referring to that PMI. I'm referring to the general attitude of some that Butler hasn't done much. Can you imagine the anger/frustration/laughter on here if X was coming off of two Championship game appearances and some suggested that wasn't enough or was a fluke?

[xudash]

I'm not quite sure I understand the analogy as I don't know much about Marquette fans, but if that entails not letting some Butler fan come on to this board and suggest to us that our program doesn't take its academics seriously, has thugs in it, and does things the wrong way, than call me a Golden Eagle. I know a lot of people don't like the anti-Butler sentiment some of us have, and that's totally fair, but this guy is straight shit-spewing and it's not right.

And is one of the primary reasons Butler receives abuse here as it is.

Butler achieved a lot in the prior two seasons, but it overachieved doing it. There is no other way to look at it than that. It's in the books. They made it happen. Good for them. It wasn't all luck. Lightening struck when Howard, Heyward and Mack found their ways to that school.

But Butler does it with a relatively weak fanbase following, especially given the success, and factoring in its schedule (especially including a Xavier game that only drew about 7.2k). They've done it from smallville, where they came to rule a conference that Xavier and other better positioned programs - at the time - exited. Again, good for them in their ability to take advantage of that.

The idea that Butler fans would try to crap over Xavier's program in terms of how it's managed, etc. is laughable. Consider right off the bat that they have nothing like the Crosstown Shootout. Nothing, zero, nada. They can't comprehend a rivalry at that level. It got away from us and UC this season, but they'll put it back together and life will move on.

Otherwise, I'll put our emphasis on the student-athlete up against theirs any day of the week. In fact, let's compare resources put against that by both programs and see how that turns out. I have a sneaking suspicion that Xavier has a greater commitment to that.

We have to take more academic risks you say? Not necessarily, especially now as we move forward as Mack settles into a better recruiting stream as he gets past the hick-ups from Sean's departure. Besides, and this is important, Butler is going to have to improve its recruiting, too, or it will get slaughtered in this league. What might that mean for Butler and its self-prescribed lilly white reputation. It could mean that they end up having a lot in common with UD fans.

Butler is a good addition and response to Temple's loss right now. Let's see if they can make the transition once they come over.

[SM#24]

I'm not referring to that PMI. I'm referring to the general attitude of some that Butler hasn't done much. Can you imagine the anger/frustration/laughter on here if X was coming off of two Championship game appearances and some suggested that wasn't enough or was a fluke?

Butler did a ton the previous two years. I have nothing but admiration for their two straight title games, and I for one do not think it was a fluke from the standpoint of the players they had on those two squads. Those two appearances were earned and well deserved. I also applaud their many NCAA appearances over the past 15 years or so.

I also do not think it was just a coincidence that every NCAA appearance for Butler (except for one in 1962) occurred after the MCC added 3 hyphen schools, 2 State schools minus the state and a directional school while Xavier, Dayton, SLU, Marq and Evansville left.

[NatiDawg]

Consider right off the bat that they have nothing like the Crosstown Shootout. Nothing, zero, nada. They can't comprehend a rivalry at that level. It got away from us and UC this season, but they'll put it back together and life will move on.


I grew up in the GCA, was a huge fan of Skip Prosser and the Xavier program. I understand the Crosstown as much as anyone and understand the rivalry. But what happened this year is completely inexcusable, it's a dark spot on the face of college basketball and the way it was handled by your coach and athletic department was a disgrace.

What Butler fans cannot comprehend is this brand of lunacy that allows you to make excuses for what happened that day, and allow you to not be embarrassed by it. We also can not comprehend having one of our players use a term like "zip em up" on television, local or not. We can not comprehend it because its not fathomable in our world. Rivalry or not.

[BBC 08]

I grew up in the GCA, was a huge fan of Skip Prosser and the Xavier program. I understand the Crosstown as much as anyone and understand the rivalry. But what happened this year is completely inexcusable, it's a dark spot on the face of college basketball and the way it was handled by your coach and athletic department was a disgrace.

What Butler fans cannot comprehend is this brand of lunacy that allows you to make excuses for what happened that day, and allow you to not be embarrassed by it. We also can not comprehend having one of our players use a term like "zip em up" on television, local or not. We can not comprehend it because its not fathomable in our world. Rivalry or not.

It's a Xavier thing. You wouldn't understand.

[NatiDawg]

Wait a minute, are we actually debating the quality of programs with a fan of a team playing in the CBI?

What do those initials even stand for? Is this some kind of pre-pre-season tournament for next year?

I will engage in plenty of smack talk with Butler fans when the time comes, but unfortunately this will not be one of them. It is March, and Xavier plays in the NCAA tournament in March....not some obscure, third world country type basketball event where fans are paid to attend the games. I would rather concentrate on the classy fans from South Bend, at least they are still playing some meaningful basketball.

Good luck to Butler in the CBI ... whatever the hell that is.

Are you enjoying all of your "participant" ribbons ?

[paulxu]

Is the A10 seriously thinking of adding a team that is reducing their arena size?

On a positive note, the A10 conference uses the Precision Time system conference wide.
Save some of those capital dollars, you're finally going to get a clock that works.

[LadyMuskie]

What Butler fans cannot comprehend . . . We also can not comprehend . . . We can not comprehend . . .

It sounds like Butler fans aren't too bright. They don't seem to be able to comprehend anything.

[MFurey]

I grew up in the GCA, was a huge fan of Skip Prosser and the Xavier program. I understand the Crosstown as much as anyone and understand the rivalry. But what happened this year is completely inexcusable, it's a dark spot on the face of college basketball and the way it was handled by your coach and athletic department was a disgrace.

What Butler fans cannot comprehend is this brand of lunacy that allows you to make excuses for what happened that day, and allow you to not be embarrassed by it. We also can not comprehend having one of our players use a term like "zip em up" on television, local or not. We can not comprehend it because its not fathomable in our world. Rivalry or not.

Pretty sure most fans were not happy with the way things played out. It wasnt the first or the last fight in a sporting event. It happened months ago, people need to and have moved on. If you're having problems comprehending a fight or use of words that happened months ago, I really dont know what to tell you. Should Xavier just fold up its program? Cancel the season? Apologies were made, suspensions, and things were done behind closed doors that we dont know about. If you dont want to join the league with Xavier, well you and your Butler pals really dont have a choice. My suggestion is to let it go, cheer on your team in whatever tournament you're playing in and hope that someone doesnt toss Brad Stevens a ton of money in the offseason to leave. I hope he stays, your program is better with him.

[bleedXblue]

I grew up in the GCA, was a huge fan of Skip Prosser and the Xavier program. I understand the Crosstown as much as anyone and understand the rivalry. But what happened this year is completely inexcusable, it's a dark spot on the face of college basketball and the way it was handled by your coach and athletic department was a disgrace.

What Butler fans cannot comprehend is this brand of lunacy that allows you to make excuses for what happened that day, and allow you to not be embarrassed by it. We also can not comprehend having one of our players use a term like "zip em up" on television, local or not. We can not comprehend it because its not fathomable in our world. Rivalry or not.

Please stop. 99% of college basketball fans have forgotten about the incident. You on the other hand would rather visit this board and admonish the program for a single incident that happened in a heated rivalry game. Yes, a single incident over this proud programs 80+ years of college basketball. No one is making excuses. Everyone associated with this program was embarrassed by what happened. Lets keep some things in perspective. No one died, no one was hurt beyond a black eye and some stitches. A single suker punch was landed. Some college kids maade some stupid comments after the game. I could go back and reference fights that happen in several different sports much, much worse than what happened that day. Its unfortunate. I think Xavier learned a valuable lesson .
It's convienient for you to point your holier than thou finger at us and tell us how things should be in "Butler's world".

[danaandvictory]

Holloway didn't punch anyone. Didn't kick them when they were on the ground. But he did say some words. I don't think his suspension was a slap on the wrist necessarily.

Incorrect. Holloway is worse than Hitler and Stalin combined. He said a nasty thing and he was mad. How do I explain this to my non-existent children?

[NatiDawg]

...I didn't bring it up...just offered my rebuttal

[coasterville95]

Paul - that will be the deal breaker. Butler can't afford the precision time system.


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?tm0kcc

[danaandvictory]

What's funny is the lack of perspective from these pearl clutching imbeciles. Did I dream Darrin Archbold punching Pete Gillen after an MCC Tournament game? Surely a classy program like Butler would never allow such an incident to occur, least of all at a tournament they hosted.

[xudash]

..........."Butler's world".

Terrible fan support.

A dump that probably needs more than a $25 million facelift.

Fans who think they've arrived.

Let's see what Butler looks like if they come into the A10 and find themselves having to recruit at a truly different level.

What an idiot. Here we are in the Dance again, even given all our issues this season, and the real Butler just stepped down into a place they may find to be very familiar in a few years - yapping at LaSalle fans about which program between them is more relevant.

[GuyFawkes38]

I'm just not convinced the Buffalo Bills are A10 material. I'm sorry, I meant Butler Bulldogs. In all seriousness, I'm a big Butler fan, but the A10 is too big right now and there are serious questions if Butler can sustain success in the long term. Will they be good 10-15 years from now. It's impossible to get a rid of a team once they are in a conference.

[Muskied]

I grew up in the GCA, was a huge fan of Skip Prosser and the Xavier program. I understand the Crosstown as much as anyone and understand the rivalry. But what happened this year is completely inexcusable, it's a dark spot on the face of college basketball and the way it was handled by your coach and athletic department was a disgrace.

What Butler fans cannot comprehend is this brand of lunacy that allows you to make excuses for what happened that day, and allow you to not be embarrassed by it. We also can not comprehend having one of our players use a term like "zip em up" on television, local or not. We can not comprehend it because its not fathomable in our world. Rivalry or not.

This is what absolutely drives us nuts about Butler fans. How do you say we aren't embarrassed. The entire program has apologized on countless levels. What would you like us to do....stop being fans? Disown family? Kick them all out? We still root, we are still fans...just like you are when you don't always succeed.....like right now.

And to say you can't comprehend it because it's not fathomable...what....like you are immune to 18 year old mistakes? Did the movie Hoosiers make you the patron saints of college basketball, in addition to legitimizing Hinkle Field House? Xavier is used to quality individuals like David West, Jason Love...and has an occasional mishap like any other program...as I'm sure the glorious Butler has had. You think they haven't sinned? Are you positive your kids haven't cheated on a test? Are you positive a staff member hasn't cheated on his wife? Just because they haven’t publically embarrassed you..they are clean? Can you "fathom" that? Oh no...that's not the Butler way, as if some code protects you from error. Just like its protected programs like Army football, Indiana Basketball, Penn State Football....and any other presumed greatness.

You go to a few final 4's, have a few academic all Americans, and all of a sudden you're the 5th gospel and think Xavier is in line for reconciliation. Don't throw stones in glass houses my man, cuz there is absolutely no way you can control it by just being a fan.

[DoubleD86]

I grew up in the GCA, was a huge fan of Skip Prosser and the Xavier program. I understand the Crosstown as much as anyone and understand the rivalry. But what happened this year is completely inexcusable, it's a dark spot on the face of college basketball and the way it was handled by your coach and athletic department was a disgrace.

What Butler fans cannot comprehend is this brand of lunacy that allows you to make excuses for what happened that day, and allow you to not be embarrassed by it. We also can not comprehend having one of our players use a term like "zip em up" on television, local or not. We can not comprehend it because its not fathomable in our world. Rivalry or not.

I'm not going to get into the middle of this because, frankly, I like Butler and their program and I am very happy they are joining the A-10.

However, I want to ask you this. I am making an assumption here, but I assume the term "nail in the coffin" is fine with you (as it is most fans). Why is "nail in the coffin" acceptable and "zip em up" not? The only thing I can come up with is one has been accepted by white, middle class people and one sounds too urban/black and thus has a ghetto connotation. The idea behind both comments are exactly the same. The opponent has been killed and it is over.

[kyxu]

However, I want to ask you this. I am making an assumption here, but I assume the term "nail in the coffin" is fine with you (as it is most fans). Why is "nail in the coffin" acceptable and "zip em up" not? The only thing I can come up with is one has been accepted by white, middle class people and one sounds too urban/black and thus has a ghetto connotation. The idea behind both comments are exactly the same. The opponent has been killed and it is over.

I think that misses the point. The issue with the comments after the game wasn't the comments themselves, but the context in which they were made.

People were upset that these "zip 'em up" and "gangster" remarks were made with relative indifference and almost gratification after a fairly shameful and gruesome display on a basketball court. No one would have thought twice about those statements had they not been made 10 minutes after an on-court brawl in which their own teammate was sent to the floor bloodied, then kicked in the head.

What irks me though, and I think this is the main issue, is that even after the suspensions, apologies and self-flagellation, people are still talking about what terrible people these kids from Xavier and UC are (well, mostly Xavier, because winning makes you a good person again in the eyes of the media).

I mean really get a freaking grip, Butler, Dayton and Iran.

[Muskied]

What irks me though, and I think this is the main issue, is that even after the suspensions, apologies and self-flagellation, people are still talking about what terrible people these kids from Xavier and UC are (well, mostly Xavier, because winning makes you a good person again in the eyes of the media).

I mean really get a freaking grip, Butler, Dayton and Iran.

The reason why they still talk about it is because they see Lyons complain about a foul call, and make a 3 signal when he hits a shot, and he and Tu always have "angry looks" on their faces..as Lance Goss put it. So a fight, added to behavior that 94% of all college basketball players exhibit - terrible people.

[muskienick]

In all fairness to the 98% of Butler fans who actually have some gray matter between their ears, this guy (NatiDawg --- could it be Lance McA?) does not represent their thinking. I was pleased that Butler shared the MCC with us, and assuming they gain entry to the A-10, I'll be happy about that also.

We should be so lucky to have 13 other programs in the A-10 that have the quality of Butler! (We now only have a precious few of that quality or higher.)

[RealDeal]

I it's a dark spot on the face of college basketball

Dark spot on the face? Is that a saying? Do you mean black eye? Whew.