Martelli and St. Joseph blocking grad transfer?

[tmac03]

Obviously just one side's version of events, but this looks to be a pretty damning story about Martelli and St. Joseph's acting vindictively against a player who wanted to use the graduate program transfer to go to UAB instead of sticking around St. Joseph's for his last year of eligibility.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/basketball/ncaa/12/19/todd.obrien/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t12_a2

[Masterofreality]

Old news.

This got play about a month ago. I don't know the reasons, and it doesn't look good, but another blip on the radar.

[GoMuskies]

Here is a summary of the "St. Joe's side" from a thread on a different board (after linking to an article discussing his suspension from the Xavier game last year as part of an incident where some laptops were stolen:

"Hmmm... the plot thickens. So this kid transfers in from another school, gets his minutes cut in his second season with St Joes after a laptop stealing incident, then waits until after he's taken the summer credits he needed to graduate on the scholarship's dime... to tell the coach who went to bat for him that he's leaving him in the lurch with no chance to replace him before the coming season... I can see why Martelli would be steamed.

Still not sure it was a wise PR move, but I can see how this story is not quite as clear cut as the puff piece written by the kid's lawyer. Clearly he's hoping to give the university a chance to over rule Martelli... not sure that's going to happen."

[tmac03]

Glad I led off with "this is just one side to the story." It did seem out of character for Martelli to try to screw a kid over.

[LA Muskie]

Seems like a pretty classless move by Martelli/St. Joe's no matter what. Admittedly Martelli isn't a culprit in this respect, but if a player needs a coach's permission to play a graduate school year at another institution, maybe the NCAA should require a coach to get permission from all of his upcoming seniors before he leaves for another job...

[THWND]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6159349

Allegedly, he was caught smoking weed in a dorm room as well, however, I can not confirm this. O'Brien spent 3 years on scholarship. He helped run an SJU summer camp, then decided to transfer in late July... after he had completed the classes required for graduating. I can say this from talking to the man, Martelli is a class act. If you're still looking for Xmas ideas "Don't Call Me Coach: A Lesson Plan for Life" by Phil Martelli is an excellent read. He has done a ton for cancer research as well as the West Philadelphia inner city youth. It's a shame that ESPN and si.com only report what viewers want to see, covering the fight from the crosstown shootout more than an other shootouts combined. Martelli went to bat for this kid who took the $ (or laptops in this case) and ran. If I were Martelli, I would do the same thing.

[DC Muskie]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6159349

Allegedly, he was caught smoking weed in a dorm room as well, however, I can not confirm this. O'Brien spent 3 years on scholarship. He helped run an SJU summer camp, then decided to transfer in late July... after he had completed the classes required for graduating. I can say this from talking to the man, Martelli is a class act. If you're still looking for Xmas ideas "Don't Call Me Coach: A Lesson Plan for Life" by Phil Martelli is an excellent read. He has done a ton for cancer research as well as the West Philadelphia inner city youth. It's a shame that ESPN and si.com only report what viewers want to see, covering the fight from the crosstown shootout more than an other shootouts combined. Martelli went to bat for this kid who took the $ (or laptops in this case) and ran. If I were Martelli, I would do the same thing.

I think its sorta funny to call Martelli a class act, then list all the good work he has done, and then finish it off about how much of a vindictive prick you would be like Martelli.

It doesn't surprise me one bit Martelli would do this. I could care less if the kidnapped all the pootie on campus then put it on youtube talking about how much he hates it at SJU.

If Martelli felt the kid used him, let him go. You win nothing by acting like this.

[joe titan]

Just asking; if St Joe's releases the player and allows the transfer, does it not count in negative way against St Joe's graduation record for NCAA purposes b/c technically the player may not have graduated timely ?

[THWND]

I think its sorta funny to call Martelli a class act, then list all the good work he has done, and then finish it off about how much of a vindictive prick you would be like Martelli.

It doesn't surprise me one bit Martelli would do this. I could care less if the kidnapped all the pootie on campus then put it on youtube talking about how much he hates it at SJU.

If Martelli felt the kid used him, let him go. You win nothing by acting like this.



If you think Martelli is a bad guy then you are an idiot.

[GoMuskies]

If you think Martelli is a bad guy then you are an idiot.

This is quite a convincing argument so far. Go on...

[DC Muskie]

If you think Martelli is a bad guy then you are an idiot.

Being a bad guy or good guy has nothing to do with the fact he is capable of being a vindictive prick when a situation suits him to be.

[xubrew]

Just asking; if St Joe's releases the player and allows the transfer, does it not count in negative way against St Joe's graduation record for NCAA purposes b/c technically the player may not have graduated timely ?

No.

Grad rates are calculated six years after a student becomes a full time student.

APR is five years and is calculated after the academic year, which includes the summer.

Even if it did count against the APR, you get a bonus point once a player does graduate.

So, in short, no.

[joe titan]

Thanks 'brew

[XU 87]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6159349

If I were Martelli, I would do the same thing.

He's not going to play for SJU. So what's the point of punishing him? Other than being vindictive, why do this to the kid, even if he's a complete a-hole? Without getting melodramatic, SJU is a Catholic school. Does this uphold Catholic ideals??

[waggy]

Screw that kid. THWND!!

[THWND]

http://www.examiner.com/saint-joseph-s-hawks-in-philadelphia/martelli-just-following-the-rules-when-it-comes-to-todd-o-brien

[danaandvictory]

Yeah, something smells about this from O'Brien's side. I don't buy that Phil is some kind of saint but if the NCAA turned down the kid's appeal twice I'm not sure it can all be laid at his feet.

Of course, that did not stop the entire college basketball cognoscenti from raising a hue and cry without full information or any sense of perspective, which ought to sound familiar.

[LA Muskie]

http://www.examiner.com/saint-joseph-s-hawks-in-philadelphia/martelli-just-following-the-rules-when-it-comes-to-todd-o-brien

Wow. Interesting. If true that answers a lot of questions, but leaves a big one: why hasn't anyone else noted this fairly black-and-white explanation?

[X-band '01]

So what the NCAA is saying here is that O'Brien can't transfer and be immediately eligible at UAB is because he already transferred previously to St. Joe's from Bucknell. The only exception is if the school that he transferred from would either a)not sponsor basketball or b)discontinue basketball. Virtually no school in the NCAA is ever going to NOT have men's basketball.

It does beg the question - why doesn't the NCAA or Martelli just simply say that these are the rules laid out by the NCAA?

[xubrew]

So what the NCAA is saying here is that O'Brien can't transfer and be immediately eligible at UAB is because he already transferred previously to St. Joe's from Bucknell. The only exception is if the school that he transferred from would either a)not sponsor basketball or b)discontinue basketball. Virtually no school in the NCAA is ever going to NOT have men's basketball.

It does beg the question - why doesn't the NCAA or Martelli just simply say that these are the rules laid out by the NCAA?

That's why he needs the waiver in the first place.

Another thing prevents him from being able to transfer and be immediately eligible. He's a basketball player. They have to sit out a year if they transfer. If he played soccer or was a swimmer, he wouldn't need a waiver because they don't have to sit out a year.

Generally speaking, it is granted if a player has graduated, has a year of eligibility left, enrolls in a program that his/her previous school doesn't offer, and that they are granted a release. If all three of those things fall into place, it's a rubber stamp. The fact that he had already transferred once is irrelevant.

[joe titan]

So. regardless of any release from Coach Martelli, the NCAA rules/decision would not allow him to play elsewhere.

First it seems Martelli exercises extreme cool and patience in this ordeal as he unjustifiably has been cast as villain. Yet Martelli never interfered in the process and has not formally or otherwise retaliated in kind.

Second, it is not Martelli's place to explain the situation to anyone nor to speak for NCAA nor defend their decision.

Third, I visited UD Pride b/c have an interest in Seton Hall; they have thread on the subject in which only a few posters take even a neutral position while all others line up to castigate Martelli. Jesuit connection aside, I find it telling no one over there links to the Examiner, recites the NCAA ruling or listens to objective reasoning and facts about the matter.

Par for the course, it seems.

[TheDanimal]

This is another unfortunate example of bad press not being alligned with situational realities. The NCAA Regulations provide that, for a graduate student to be immediately eligible for athletic competiton at a school other than that from which he obtained his undergraduate degree, the following must be true:

He must be seeking to participate in a sport other than baseball, basketball, football or men's hockey.
He must not have previously transferred from another four year school unless that school discontinued the sport.
He must be in good academic standing.
He must get a certification from his previous school saying it does not object.

As you can see, the typically referenced requirement that a graduate school must offer an unoffered program is not written into the exemption. However this the typical standard used by the NCAA in granting a waiver of the exemption requirement that the sport must not be football, basketball, baseball or hockey. A key concept is that only the NCAA can waive an established exemption requirement, not the school. The school can only consent or withhold consent. In the current St. Joes case the athlete would need an NCAA waiver of two of the exemption criteria (basketball and previous transfer). If the NCAA would not waive two points (which would seem unlikely) school consent or the withholding thereof is irrelevent.

[danaandvictory]

So you're saying that the hysterical reaction of the entire college basketball national media (save Gregg Doyel) was based on faulty, incomplete, and apparently incorrect information? None of which has been corrected in the intervening days? I am shocked.

[xnatic03]

So you're saying that the hysterical reaction of the entire college basketball national media (save Gregg Doyel) was based on faulty, incomplete, and apparently incorrect information? None of which has been corrected in the intervening days? I am shocked.

They are currently lining up the next group of patsies...errr....people to throw under the bus without having done any research. I believe they went to the Jimmy Boeheim School of Premature Castigation.

[xnatic03]

Not to be confused with the Rick Pitino School of Premature Ejaculation

[xubrew]

This is another unfortunate example of bad press not being alligned with situational realities. The NCAA Regulations provide that, for a graduate student to be immediately eligible for athletic competiton at a school other than that from which he obtained his undergraduate degree, the following must be true:

He must be seeking to participate in a sport other than baseball, basketball, football or men's hockey.
He must not have previously transferred from another four year school unless that school discontinued the sport.
He must be in good academic standing.
He must get a certification from his previous school saying it does not object.

As you can see, the typically referenced requirement that a graduate school must offer an unoffered program is not written into the exemption. However this the typical standard used by the NCAA in granting a waiver of the exemption requirement that the sport must not be football, basketball, baseball or hockey. A key concept is that only the NCAA can waive an established exemption requirement, not the school. The school can only consent or withhold consent. In the current St. Joes case the athlete would need an NCAA waiver of two of the exemption criteria (basketball and previous transfer). If the NCAA would not waive two points (which would seem unlikely) school consent or the withholding thereof is irrelevent.

Incorrect. They've always waived the two points before.

Had Saint Joe's granted a release, he would have gotten the waiver. Okay, one can't say for certain. That's unfair. What is certain is that it has NEVER been denied before. In fact, it is believed that within a year or two a waiver will not be necessary because the rule would be that anyone who graduates and still has eligibility left is free to transfer into a grad program without sitting out.


So you're saying that the hysterical reaction of the entire college basketball national media (save Gregg Doyel) was based on faulty, incomplete, and apparently incorrect information? None of which has been corrected in the intervening days? I am shocked.

I don't think so. The precedent is that if 1) he graduates, 2) he has eligibility remaining, 3) he enrolls in a grad program not offered at his previous school, and 4) he is released, he is ALWAYS granted the waiver. I cannot think of a single example of where a waiver wasn't granted under those circumstances.

He wasn't released. That's why he didn't get the waiver. That's not a quantum leap of assumption. Maybe Saint Joe's has their reasons. I'm not saying they don't. What I am saying is that they didn't release him and that's why he didn't get it.

[waggy]

Maybe St. Joe's released him, but the NCAA didn't. Is there any proof otherwise?

[TheDanimal]

Incorrect. They've always waived the two points before.

Brew- Please provide an example of an instance where the NCAA granted instant eligibility to a graduate student basketball or football player who first played at one school during undergraduate then transferred to another school and played during undergraduate and then went to a third school for graduate studies.

[xubrew]

Off the top of my head, Kenneth Cooper transferred from Oklahoma State to LA Tech, and then played at UAB after graduating from LA Tech.

Utah State has had some players that have done it as well. I wouldnt' go so far to say it happens all the time, but there is are probably at least one or two cases of it every year.

I can name others, but I really don't feel like digging for them. They're generally not your more memorable players, so it is difficult to remember off the top of your head. There are examples of it, though. If the NCAA publishes a list of all the waivers it grants (not sure if it is public), you'd see multiple examples of it. What I can't do is think of a single example of where a player was released and denied. Like I said, this is a rule that is a year or two away from changing to where players don't even need waivers anymore.

[DC Muskie]

Kid's appeal was denied.

It's too bad that Martelli feels so strongly about this.