Penn State

[THRILLHOUSE]

Horrible news coming out of State College, looks like a former coach is a sexual predator and high rankings officials at PSU, including the AD, tried to cover it up.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=6270

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

If PSU had any integrity they would decline to represent the Legends division in a Big 10 championship game.

[boozehound]

That is a pretty fucked up situation there.

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

Wow, I didn't realize it was that sordid. What a brazen predator. And that John Raykovitz from Second Mile is a disgrace.

[GoMuskies]

I assume this situation will finally lead to Paterno's retirement.

[BlueGuy]

I can't believe it was never reported to police till now. The article mentions several witnesses that reported it to the school but not police. I'd have to believe that if I were to witness something like that at work, reported it to my boss, and nothing ever came of it, I'd call the police myself.



---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=43.226727,-75.446395

[mohr5150]

This makes me sick to my stomach.

[X Factor]

I read the grand jury report (graphic). Jerry Sandusky is one sick, disgusting piece of deviant human filth.

Everyone at PSU who knew about and did jack crap, should be put in jail, Joe Pa included.

I hope he rots.

[BlueGuy]

He's free on bail now. I wouldn't be surprised if he kills himself. His alternative is to die in prison.

[golfitup]

He's free on bail now. I wouldn't be surprised if he kills himself. His alternative is to die in prison.

If the allegations are true I hope he does. Would save the good taxpayers of that state a lot of money.

[BENWAR]

Bring out the rusty drill bit that Kahns was talking about.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I read the grand jury report (graphic). Jerry Sandusky is one sick, disgusting piece of deviant human filth.

Everyone at PSU who knew about and did jack crap, should be put in jail, Joe Pa included.

I hope he rots.

I just got done reading it too. Sickening...using a children's charity as a front to prey on children. Can't get any worse than that.

I'm not taking the time to review the Pennsylvania statute, but I've got to believe that all university officials are mandatory reporters. Regardless of the level of their involvement in any type of cover, any university official that even heard a peep about any of these allegations should have a duty to report it to Children Services and the authorities. The duty to report, at least in Ohio, is a pretty serious one. If you are a teacher, counselor, doctor, guardian ad litem, social worker, etc., if a child alleges abuse of any kind, whether you believe them or not, you have an absolute duty to report it.

PSU should wipe the slate clean with any officials that had any knowledge about this and didn't do anything....

Edit: I see a lot of people backing up Joe Pa for going to his AD and campus police. If Joe Pa was a mandatory reporter pursuant to Pennsylvania law (I'm betting he is), he should have contacted Children Services and the local authorities...not his AD and campus police. He'll retire after this season regardless....but he should have done even more, IMHO.

[wkrq59]

I've read through this filth and share your disgust (IF ALL IS TRUE). Sadly, my training and experience from previous profession --like the posts of current or former legal experts whose knowledge of the law is far superior (I mean that sincerely) to mine--I still say get all the facts and both sides of the story.
Incidentally, Joe Paterno should probably have stepped down years ago. Like others I am convinced that had he done so, he would have died a short time after he retired. His alleged involvement in this also rates a wait and see.
Regardless, I do not advocate suicide for the allegedly offending former coach. If what he is said to have done is proved true, there are few prisons in which he would survive, which is another matter. Regardless, he has his own demons to deal with today and for all time. :(:mad:

[bleedXblue]

How is the hell does something like this happen ?

Yes, Joe Pa is done.

What a way to end an incredible career.

The two administrators should be fired immediately and spend some time in jail thinking about what they've done to those poor kids who were assaulted after they were informed of the situations.

[BlueGuy]

There is so much of this story that is just dumbfounding... How the hell does a 28 year old man not step in and save the 10 year old boy from being ass raped? Instead he calls his dad, and then doesn't report it to his boss (Paterno) till the next day? Simply amazing.

I couldn't even imagine how the alumnus of this school must feel. If something like this ever happened at X, I would be beyond sick to my stomach.

[kyxu]

I couldn't even imagine how the alumnus of this school must feel.

Which one in particular? I would imagine all PSU alumni would be sickened by this.

[BlueGuy]

Which one in particular? I would imagine all PSU alumni would be sickened by this.

That was supposed to be Alumni.... Autocorrect on the iPad decided I meant Alumnus.....

[kyxu]

That was supposed to be Alumni.... Autocorrect on the iPad decided I meant Alumnus.....

Sure. Pass the buck. Kinda like what Paterno does here...

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/1/joe_paterno_issues_statement_a.html

After the way Paterno has been lauded in his career, it's amazing this is how it's going to end.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I've read through this filth and share your disgust (IF ALL IS TRUE). Sadly, my training and experience from previous profession --like the posts of current or former legal experts whose knowledge of the law is far superior (I mean that sincerely) to mine--I still say get all the facts and both sides of the story.
Incidentally, Joe Paterno should probably have stepped down years ago. Like others I am convinced that had he done so, he would have died a short time after he retired. His alleged involvement in this also rates a wait and see.
Regardless, I do not advocate suicide for the allegedly offending former coach. If what he is said to have done is proved true, there are few prisons in which he would survive, which is another matter. Regardless, he has his own demons to deal with today and for all time. :(:mad:

Yes...its important to get both sides of the story and let this ordeal play out. However, as one of the "legal experts" on this board, an indictment as lengthy and factual oriented as this one is not normal. Its true..indictments are just that...indictments...but there are a lot of witnesses and corroborating evidence in this one. I've seen people found not guilty after lots of "after the fact" allegations are made and they build up. This one seems to have been built "before the fact." I'll hear both sides...but my gut reaction is that Sandusky and PSU have some dark days ahead of them.

[Ledgewood]

I, for one, am going to put myself out there and say that child molestation is wrong.

[MCXU]

I, for one, am going to put myself out there and say that child molestation is wrong.

Wow!

Just... Wow!

Is everything so Black and White in your world?

[More Cowbell]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/sports/ncaafootball/in-penn-states-sex-abuse-case-a-focus-on-how-paterno-reacted.html

I expect his retirement is imminent.

[Blueblob4life]

I, for one, am going to put myself out there and say that child molestation is wrong.

You sir, are bold.

But I fully agree with you

[Pete Delkus]

If I’m one of the fathers of the victims, I am feeling the type of rage that results in some serious need of professional intervention. I wouldn’t doubt that the mothers and fathers of these kids are feeling an incredible sense of guilt, giving permission for their child to spend time with the former defensive coordinator of Penn St. and an extra and inside shot of football fame and glory.

I would need to remind myself that Sandusky has children of his own, one working for the Cleveland Browns, and grandchildren, who have to live with the disgrace of what their grandfather was…a monster.

This guy has caused so much damage for so many people, which goes way past football.

[Juice]

RT @danwetzel Sources: Sandusky worked out in Penn State weight room multiple times last week http://bit.ly/uj3EUX

Penn State is effed

[MCXU]

UHHH.

I just finished reading the 23 page indictment by the grand jury. Previously I was only going by the news reports. As if those weren't disgusting enough. I would advise everyone not to read the indictment. I wish I hadn't.

This is beyond evil.

I will not write any of the details, they are in no way appropriate to be posted on this blog and they add nothing to the story.

I do think what I write below does give a better sense of just how evil this guy is, without divulging any of the uneccessary and unwanted details.

Towards the end of the indictment there is a description of an event in which a Korean War Veteran who was then a janitor at PSU walked in on this monster. This veteran had seen men torn limb from limb on the battle field and after encountering this monster he was so literally shaken to the core that his coworkers thought he was going to have a heart attack as a result of what he saw that night.

Many, many victims, all testifying to similar behavior on seperate occasions. This guy did it, everyone involved knows he did it too.

I'm feeling sad, sick, raging angry and numb at the same time. Can't begin to imagine how the victims feel.

[MCXU]

He seriously wrote a book titled "Touched - The Jerry Sandusky Story"

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/07/justice/pennsylvania-sandusky-profile/

[An X Fan]

@markcviera (twitter.com/#!/markcviera/): Check out the name attached to a new child-care facility on Penn State's campus. pic.twitter.com/qXa7K6wg (http://twitter.com/?photo_id=1#!/markcviera/status/133658071716208641/photo/1)

Gary Schultz. Disgusting news at every turn.

[XULucho27]

UHHH.

I just finished reading the 23 page indictment by the grand jury. Previously I was only going by the news reports. As if those weren't disgusting enough. I would advise everyone not to read the indictment. I wish I hadn't.

This is beyond evil.
I've been working as a law clerk at the State's Attorney's Office here in Chicago for the last year and a half. I've read a multitude of Grand Jury indictments of Criminal Sexual Assaults and have even helped prepare some of the attorneys for trials (which involves being intimately familiar with the facts). This indictment is, without a doubt, one of the most disgusting, depraved, and sickening things I have ever read.

Like I said I've worked on a bunch of these cases and they all disgust me, to an extent, but few, if any, shock me anymore. This one was tough to read.

The brazen audacity of this piece of filth to just abuse these kids in places where he could easily get caught is just mind boggling. The bold faced lies of the school administrators to the grand jury essentially covering for sexual predator who had been caught IN THE ACT just astounds me. The CHIEF OF POLICE directed a detective to close the investigation; are you f****** kidding me?! I mean they caught the guy, multiple times, and the largest reprimand he received was being told not "do what he did with any child again" (I'm with MCXU on censoring the details on this one, read the indictment at your own risk).

This guy does not deserve to live. Plain and simple.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I keep going back to one thing....if only Children Services were called by any one of those likely mandatory reporters....or maybe even some of the parents of the kids. Professionally speaking, CSB can be difficult to deal with sometimes....but if they had been called by anyone, it would have been over. CSB would have immediately contacted the Sheriff's Department who would have contacted the county prosecutor's office...who would have a prosecutor that would have jumped at the chance to have his mug all over the national news to bring down a well known pedophile and catapult him to run for Governor.

Sucks they weren't called. And they most certainly should have been...

[bleedXblue]

I've been working as a law clerk at the State's Attorney's Office here in Chicago for the last year and a half. I've read a multitude of Grand Jury indictments of Criminal Sexual Assaults and have even helped prepare some of the attorneys for trials (which involves being intimately familiar with the facts). This indictment is, without a doubt, one of the most disgusting, depraved, and sickening things I have ever read.

Like I said I've worked on a bunch of these cases and they all disgust me, to an extent, but few, if any, shock me anymore. This one was tough to read.

The brazen audacity of this piece of filth to just abuse these kids in places where he could easily get caught is just mind boggling. The bold faced lies of the school administrators to the grand jury essentially covering for sexual predator who had been caught IN THE ACT just astounds me. The CHIEF OF POLICE directed a detective to close the investigation; are you f****** kidding me?! I mean they caught the guy, multiple times, and the largest reprimand he received was being told not "do what he did with any child again" (I'm with MCXU on censoring the details on this one, read the indictment at your own risk).

This guy does not deserve to live. Plain and simple.

Cover up from top to bottom of the adminstration and coaching staff.

I know the guy was a "legend" and was well thought of, but how can you lay your head down at night not following through with the allegations.

Anyone with first hand knowledge of this should be fired and sued by the families, including Paterno (they never will).

[Nigel Tufnel]

After reading the New York Times article posted by More Cowbell, I'm absolutely sure that a phone call from someone would have sent red flags all over that counties' CSB. If they were involved in a cursory interview in 1998, a call in 1992 would have sent sirens off at the local CSB.

I certainly don't have all the facts. And the guy is innocent until proven guilty...but he will be proved guilty. And, at least in my mind, this all could have been avoided by some people in trusted positions acting accordingly. Did these people break the law? No. But could this have been nipped in the bud by people acting responsibly? Yes. This is truly a horribly tragic set of events.

[xsteve1]

After reading the New York Times article posted by More Cowbell, I'm absolutely sure that a phone call from someone would have sent red flags all over that counties' CSB. If they were involved in a cursory interview in 1998, a call in 1992 would have sent sirens off at the local CSB.

I certainly don't have all the facts. And the guy is innocent until proven guilty...but he will be proved guilty. And, at least in my mind, this all could have been avoided by some people in trusted positions acting accordingly. Did these people break the law? No. But could this have been nipped in the bud by people acting responsibly? Yes. This is truly a horribly tragic set of events.

He looks guilty as hell and I believe will admit to some of these things. I can't believe somebody didn't break this guy in half. I know if he did something like that to one of my son's I would have to spend the rest of my life in prison.

[Nigel Tufnel]

He looks guilty as hell and I believe will admit to some of these things. I can't believe somebody didn't break this guy in half. I know if he did something like that to one of my son's I would have to spend the rest of my life in prison.

Hell, according to the New York Times article, he already admitted to wrongdoing to a mother of one of his victims...with campus police listening in on the phone conversation. This is an unfortunate lesson to a lot of people. I hope they pay attention to the lesson here....one of the victim's parents called campus police. Nothing happened. If, God forbid, you ever find yourself in this position with one of your kids, call the county CSB and be pushy about it. Take your child into the CSB office and request, or demand, that he/she be interviewed. Call your county prosecutor and don't be put off. Demand to meet with an ADA and Children Services together with the Sheriff. Don't let your child's issues be put in the hands of campus police. I'm not saying they are incompetent. But go above them. Go to people that are beyond the reach of a powerful university.

Like I previously stated, think about this. The county prosecutor is an elected official. He is presented with this case....he has two options: 1) pursue it relentlessly and with a conviction, your career blasts off; or 2) ignore it and hope to God it doesn't come back to haunt your career as prosecutor/politician. No choice at all. Any prosecutor with half a brain pursues it zealously. Man.....this whole thing is just depressing.

And yes, Steve, I agree with you....it would be almost impossible to not exact a father's revenge. As a father of three, two being boys, I hope to God none of us are ever faced with such a dilemma.

[XUglow]

Would these idiots act the same if this low life was beating these kids with a baseball bat? I cannot believe that people will work to cover up this particular crime over and over and over again. Penn State should burn for their role in this situation.

[Juice]

Like I previously stated, think about this. The county prosecutor is an elected official. He is presented with this case....he has two options: 1) pursue it relentlessly and with a conviction, your career blasts off; or 2) ignore it and hope to God it doesn't come back to haunt your career as prosecutor/politician. No choice at all. Any prosecutor with half a brain pursues it zealously. Man.....this whole thing is just depressing.

The prosecutor who first handled the reports in 1998 did not go forward with the charges. He went missing in 2005 and was announced dead a few months ago. No one has any idea on why he didn't go forward back then or what happened to him.

[Emp]

Paterno's "prayer for those kids" comments are incredible.

How does he legally survive the failure to report to law enforcement? The safe harbor of informing your superiors and then clamming up is bullshit.

How does he survive continuing to allow this guy anywhere near the facilities, the program? If he isnt JoPa, an aggressive DA charges his as an accessory: with knowledge, he continues to present this predator with opportunity and the wink of looking the other way.

Penn State cannot possibly keep Paterno on, last home game or not. He's let the victims, the program and the school down on so many ethical decisions.

Sadly, absolute power corrupts even the best of us.

[XUglow]

Joe Pa regrets not having done more. Like a criminal that is sorry for his actions after he gets caught. Joe Pa regrets not having done more now that everyone knows that he did next to nothing.

Resign, Joe Pa. Now.

...and while we are at it, the most important thing you could have told your team today was not "Beat Nebraska."

[PMI]

I couldn't imagine being a Penn State fan right now. This is absolutely absurd.

[xubball1993]

The idiot students who are rioting over Paterno's firing are too stupid to realize they are insulting the victims by supporting the man who facilitated further abuse by his inaction.

[Jumpy]

Joe Pa regrets not having done more. Like a criminal that is sorry for his actions after he gets caught. Joe Pa regrets not having done more now that everyone knows that he did next to nothing.

Resign, Joe Pa. Now.

...and while we are at it, the most important thing you could have told your team today was not "Beat Nebraska."

His reaction to this whole thing has caused me to lose all respect for the man. His "prayers for the kids" and "regretting having not done more" along with his announced retirement- at the end of the year. His press release even said something to the effect of "I want to make this as easy as possible for the board of directors... they should no longer waste time worrying about my status". If he wanted to make it as easy as possible for them, he would have stepped down immediately, not at the end of the season. He was trying to proactively manipulate them into letting him leave on his terms. I'm glad they still canned his ass.

[danaandvictory]

The idiot students who are rioting over Paterno's firing are too stupid to realize they are insulting the victims by supporting the man who facilitated further abuse by his inaction.

Yep.

Can you imagine one of Sandusky's victims or a family member of one of the victims watching those kids riot last night?

I also think there is a major gulf between what people in Joepa's little fiefdom in State College believe about this issue and what the rest of the country thinks. At least PSU's Board of Trustees had the guts to see that.

I don't even want to think how ugly it would have been for Paterno to lead PSU on to the field in Columbus or Madison this month. Or the Big 10 Championship game in Indianapolis or the Rose Bowl.

[xubrew]

My point of view is a little different.

I look at it as a complete institutional failure. It never ceases to amaze me, and enrage me, the extent that an institution will go to in order to cover its own ass, while at the same time having no regard for anyone else.

The right thing to do would have been to fire his ass, and call the police. Those two actuions would have taken about five minutes. That's not how institutions generally think, though. The collective thinking all along was "We have to protect Penn State." Litigation and media coverage in regards to this is not good for Penn State, so lets deal with this internally. THAT'S what pisses me off.

It wasn't that JoePa didn't come forward. It's that NO ONE came forward. The buck does not stop with him and him alone. Should he have done more?? Yes. However, should everyone else have done more as well?? Absolutely. It wouldn't surprise me if higher-ups said something along the lines of "Thanks Joe. Now, stand back and keep quiet while we handle this." I mean, the president and vice president of the university lied (or at the very least misled) investigators, so it isn't too much of a stretch to think they did everything they could to keep it quiet.

Even now, it is evident that Penn State is looking out for Penn State. Did they fire JoePa because they felt it was the right thing to do?? Maybe, but I still think the driving force for firing JoePa was not so much that they felt it was right. They didn't like the idea of a press conference after the Nebraska game.

Don't misunderstand me. I realize JoePa is a key player, but he's not the ONLY key player, and for that matter he probably isn't even the most aggregious key player. He is, however, the most viisible key player. THAT'S why he was fired. If Penn State was really concerned about doing the right thing, they would have done it fifteen years ago.

Again, I'm not excusing JoePa. I'm just saying that Penn State's biggest concern was and still is covering their own ass, and that's what I have the biggest problem with. This whole issue of justice for the victims...well, that's a secondary issue.

[BlueGuy]

It's about to get even worse... Doesn't seem possible, but this will do it... It's just rumor, but blowing up on twitter. Link (http://www.businessinsider.com/jerry-sandusky-donors-2011-11)

[pizza delivery]

I don't know NCAA rules at all, but I think they should cancel the season at Penn State, clear everyone out, and death penalty the program for 3 years. I'm not kidding.

[xubrew]

I don't know NCAA rules at all, but I think they should cancel the season at Penn State, clear everyone out, and death penalty the program for 3 years. I'm not kidding.

Essentially, the NCAA's biggest focus is monitoring competition, and what is and is not PERMISSABLE in regards to competition, not what is ILLEGAL in a court of law.

This isn't an issue of what is and is not permissable regarding competition. This is an issue of being aggregiously in violation of the law.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but my take on it is that if it's impermissable, let the NCAA handle it. If it's illegal, let the police and the courts handle it. This is definitely the latter. If the NCAA tried to do anything, I think they'd just be getting in the way. It's not really their place...at least not at this point in time.

[xavierj]

I don't know NCAA rules at all, but I think they should cancel the season at Penn State, clear everyone out, and death penalty the program for 3 years. I'm not kidding.

Yeah that would be fair to the players. Clean house and let the players coach themselves would be more appropriate.

[chico]

Here's the thing that just baffles me. How can a group of highly educated people, entrusted with the task of education young people and preparing them for adulthood, think it's the best option to cover this thing up? I mean, they weren't the ones doing the crime. Wouldn't it be much easier, and much better for the institution, to tell the authorities what had happened and give them all the assistance necessary to get to the bottom of things? Nothing stated so far implicates any PSU employee in any of this activity other than Sandusky - but yet they felt the best alternative was to cover this up. It boggles the mind.

[pizza delivery]

Essentially, the NCAA's biggest focus is monitoring competition, and what is and is not PERMISSABLE in regards to competition, not what is ILLEGAL in a court of law.

This isn't an issue of what is and is not permissable regarding competition. This is an issue of being aggregiously in violation of the law.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but my take on it is that if it's impermissable, let the NCAA handle it. If it's illegal, let the police and the courts handle it. This is definitely the latter. If the NCAA tried to do anything, I think they'd just be getting in the way. It's not really their place...at least not at this point in time.

Thanks. How was Baylor handled? Did they get sanctions for the murder cover up?

[pizza delivery]

LanceMcAlister Lance McAlister
Mark Schlereth says on ESPN Radio the NCAA should step in and Penn State should not play their game Saturday.


.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

And lets not forget, the DA who was investigating Sandusky early on DISAPPEARED in 2005. Friends and family say he was a pitbull and a man of the law.

His body has never been found

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sports/ncaafootball/questions-on-sandusky-wrapped-in-2005-gricar-mystery.html?_r=1

[nkymuskie]

And lets not forget, the DA who was investigating Sandusky early on DISAPPEARED in 2005. Friends and family say he was a pitbull and a man of the law.

His body has never been found

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sports/ncaafootball/questions-on-sandusky-wrapped-in-2005-gricar-mystery.html?_r=1

I just read about it on Deadspin. This story just get's weirder and weirder. Sounds like he just wanted to disappear to me. Apparently he had just taken down one of the biggest drug rings ever in the United States.

Here's the link for the deadspin article

http://deadspin.com/penn-state-scandal/

[xubrew]

Here's the thing that just baffles me. How can a group of highly educated people, entrusted with the task of education young people and preparing them for adulthood, think it's the best option to cover this thing up? I mean, they weren't the ones doing the crime. Wouldn't it be much easier, and much better for the institution, to tell the authorities what had happened and give them all the assistance necessary to get to the bottom of things? Nothing stated so far implicates any PSU employee in any of this activity other than Sandusky - but yet they felt the best alternative was to cover this up. It boggles the mind.

It's my experience (well, opinion) that much of the time highly educated people have a limited scope. They're highly educated in the areas that they teach or have their PhD in, but once they step away from that they don't know much of anything (although they oftentimes think they do).

I don't know if that is the case at Penn State or not, but it isn't the first time highly educated people failed to see the big picture. They wanted to do what was best for the university and for themselves, and felt it would be embarrassing to go forward with it like they should have. Well, look at how things turned out.


Thanks. How was Baylor handled? Did they get sanctions for the murder cover up?

Baylor was smacked down pretty hard and had half of their season cancelled, but Baylor also broke several NCAA rules. They falsified drug tests, paid players who were supposedly walk-ons, paid players to work and attend camps, and tried to convince parents to lie to NCAA investigators (all allegedly, of course).

I don't know or remember all of the details, but when there was the sexual assault case at Colorado, the NCAA didn't really get involved. Breaking NCAA rules isn't the same as breaking the law. Bruce Pearl did things that were impermissable in regards to NCAA rules. Jerry Sandusky broke the law....BIG TIME. That's why I kind of think it's the cops who should handle this.

[An X Fan]

From the NCAA perspective, there aren't obvious rules like impermissible benefits, pay for play, falsified grades, etc.

But if this isn't the greatest case of lack of institutional control, I don't know what is.

[pizza delivery]

Wow, the average number of victims with cases like this is 107.

[pizza delivery]

Emmert, NCAA Prez, on ESPN states they are looking at their by-laws to see if anything was violated or to determine if there have been ethics violated that pertain to them.

He calls it the worst scandal he's ever seen.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7216163&categoryid=2564308

He's calling for all University Presidents to deal with these issues better and keep communication open.

[coasterville95]

Forfeit Saturday's game?

Sure, if the game is at Penn St. .

But if they are on the road, why punish some other school that will have to refund tickets and lose all the revenue from a home game, unless part of the deal is Penn St. has to buy up all the tickets that were sold prior to the cancellation, plus a reasonable stipdend to cover lost concesions, parking and other game day revenue.

[XULucho27]

Forfeit Saturday's game?

Sure, if the game is at Penn St. .

But if they are on the road, why punish some other school that will have to refund tickets and lose all the revenue from a home game, unless part of the deal is Penn St. has to buy up all the tickets that were sold prior to the cancellation, plus a reasonable stipdend to cover lost concesions, parking and other game day revenue.

But why punish Penn State's players? What did those kids ever do to deserve having their game forfeited? Their game on Saturday is at home against Nebraska and is also Senior Day. Should the guys who did nothing but play their butts off for their school have to surrender the right to be honored for their efforts, a right every other senior before them has enjoyed, because of the depraved actions of their superiors? I think that's a bit harsh.

Down the road, if there are sanctions for the football program as a whole for not maintaining a safe environment and allowing that piece of scum to just hang around (as recently as last week!!) then I'll be behind it. But I don't think the players need to be punished because they just happen to play for Penn State when this all went down. They're not, to my understanding, complicit in the reprehensible behavior.

FWIW, I do agree with your assertion that forfeiting the rest of their games harms not only Penn State, but the other universities as well.

On an unrelated note: How has McQueary not been forced to at least take a mandatory leave of absence? And how has Tim Curley not been fired yet (it's my understanding he's taken a leave of absence, but hasn't been relieved of his position yet).

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

There's a sportscaster for the Ravens named Gerry Sandusky. Poor guy is getting rocked on twitter by uninformed people.

https://twitter.com/#!/gerrysandusky

DatCrakRobbaSam Sam Calhoun
@GerrySandusky is a cold hearted rape monster
51 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
in reply to ↑

@GerrySandusky
Gerry Sandusky
@DatCrakRobbaSam You have the wrong guy. I'm the sportscaster from Baltimore. Gerry with a G. No relation to the former Penn St coach.
46 minutes ago via TweetDeck
Favorite Retweet Reply
replies ↓

DatCrakRobbaSam Sam Calhoun
@
@GerrySandusky your a dirty rapist liar

-------

KirkCobane Andrew
@GerrySandusky u make me sick 2my stomach how could someone ever root for the Ravens #httr
9 Nov
in reply to ↑

@GerrySandusky
Gerry Sandusky
@KirkCobane #httr You have the wrong guy. I'm Gerry with a G, no relation to the Penn State guy.

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GerrySandusky Gerry Sandusky
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@Kzovko Wrong guy. I'm not related to him.

http://deadspin.com/5857676/ravens-radio-guy-gerry-sandusky-would-like-to-remind-you-and-dick-ebersol-hes-not-jerry-sandusky?tag=penn-state-scandal

[boozehound]

I'm surprised that @DatCrakRobbaSam wasn't more willing to listen to reason.

...One more reason not to have a twitter account.

[waggy]

I only listened to a minute or so of this Costas interview (on ESPN) before turning it off. Just seems sensationalistic. Of course, ESPN ran it again at the half. Changed the channel again. I won't even be able to watch sports if Sandusky makes his victims get on the stand. Good God.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Did anyone hear LaVar Arrington's rant on the radio station in DC? They just played it on ESPN. Damn. I realize that Sandusky couldn't apologize to the victims in his interview because it would seem like an admission of guilt...but Arrington made some good points. And the emotion. Wow. That guy is pissed...regardless of innocence or guilt....he is pissed that Sandusky didn't apologize about how these events have affected the victims, Penn State and all of players that have ever played for Penn State. It was pretty rivoting stuff....I'd try googling it if you haven't heard it.

If (when) Sandusky is found guilty....an 8X10 cell with Arrington for about an hour might seem like a good punishment. ANGER, people....ANGER.

[pizza delivery]

From what I understand, the judge who let Sandusky out on bail is a donor at Second Mile.

ALSO, Sandusky's attorney married a 16 year old girl at the age of like 48. So, the whole conspiracy angle kind of won't die.

[XULucho27]

From what I understand, the judge who let Sandusky out on bail is a donor at Second Mile.

ALSO, Sandusky's attorney married a 16 year old girl at the age of like 48. So, the whole conspiracy angle kind of won't die.

Not only a donor, she was a volunteer for The Second Mile.

http://deadspin.com/5859075/judge-who-set-unsecured-bail-for-jerry-sandusky-is-a-second-mile-volunteer-%5Bupdate%5D

[drudy23]

WTF is going on here? It's like the guy is bullet-proof....there HAS to be MUCH more to this story that I'm sure we can't even imagine. What does Sandusky have on some people?

If ever there was fuel for cover-ups and conspiracy, this is certainly it.

[pizza delivery]

The Daily Show does well regarding the horribly creepy phone interview from Monday:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-november-15-2011/jerry-sandusky-phone-interview

[Billy]

WTF is going on here? It's like the guy is bullet-proof....there HAS to be MUCH more to this story that I'm sure we can't even imagine. What does Sandusky have on some people?

If ever there was fuel for cover-ups and conspiracy, this is certainly it.

Valid question.

It may just come down to fear of the ramifications from being viewed as complicit to the destruction of the PSU football program.

McQueary has supposedly received death threats under the premise that he "damaged the program", and all he did was report the sodomy episode to Paterno. If anything, he should be considered one of the enablers...and still his life has been screwed with by these PSU lunatics. So I could at least see some motivation for a local judge (one who is likely elected) to selfishly put fairness on the back burner.

College football culture has always been creepy to me. Not that college basketball doesn't have some yuck in places (I stood and faced Lexington as I typed that last sentence). But this is one reason I almost hope Xavier never gets a football program. Something about being close to big college football programs seemingly saps the common sense out of people.

Read Death to the BCS if you have any doubts.

[pizza delivery]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/victim-penn-state-officials-rejected-claims-university-professor/story?id=14960575#.TsQZJLJ-SSo

Another victim from another person at Penn State handled in the same way as Sandusky.

[XULucho27]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/victim-penn-state-officials-rejected-claims-university-professor/story?id=14960575#.TsQZJLJ-SSo

Another victim from another person at Penn State handled in the same way as Sandusky.

I was about to call bullshit on this until I read that he has tape recorded conversations. This seems, now, to be a pervasive university problem. Is the Justice Department going to look into Penn State now? Man. Just sick and sad.

[boozehound]

First of all, has anyone ever heard a less believable response to the question "Are you sexually attracted to young boys"?

Second, is there any chance Penn State is affiliated with NAMBLA, because it is starting to look that way?

[XUglow]

I was about to call bullshit on this until I read that he has tape recorded conversations. This seems, now, to be a pervasive university problem. Is the Justice Department going to look into Penn State now? Man. Just sick and sad.

As I understand it, PSU has violated several laws regarding the reporting of sex crimes. I will try and find a link to the story that I read the other day.

[Billy]

First of all, has anyone ever heard a less believable response to the question "Are you sexually attracted to young boys"?


C'mon. You mean it wouldn't take you 15 seconds to answer a tough question like that??

[BBC 08]

C'mon. You mean it wouldn't take you 15 seconds to answer a tough question like that??

It was 16.3 to be exact.

[boozehound]

C'mon. You mean it wouldn't take you 15 seconds to answer a tough question like that??

"Uh... well... Um... I love young boys. I love to spend time with young boys. Am I sexually attracted to young boys? Um... Uh... No. I'm not."

It gave the impression that he really had to think about it deeply before answering. He had to know that they were going to ask that question.

Sandusky and his lawyer are idiots. Truly world class idiots. There is no way that they should have let that guy do that interview. It was one of the creepiest things I have seen in a long time.

[muskiefan82]

"Uh... well... Um... I love young boys. I love to spend time with young boys. Am I sexually attracted to young boys? Um... Uh... No. I'm not."

It gave the impression that he really had to think about it deeply before answering. He had to know that they were going to ask that question.

Sandusky and his lawyer are idiots. Truly world class idiots. There is no way that they should have let that guy do that interview. It was one of the creepiest things I have seen in a long time.

OR, you are a defense lawyer tired of defending criminals who prey on children and decided that your client SHOULD do an interview.....

[Billy]

It gave the impression that he really had to think about it deeply before answering. He had to know that they were going to ask that question.

Sandusky and his lawyer are idiots. Truly world class idiots. There is no way that they should have let that guy do that interview. It was one of the creepiest things I have seen in a long time.

Those were my exact takeaways as well.

[XULucho27]

"Uh... well... Um... I love young boys. I love to spend time with young boys. Am I sexually attracted to young boys? Um... Uh... No. I'm not."

It gave the impression that he really had to think about it deeply before answering. He had to know that they were going to ask that question.

Sandusky and his lawyer are idiots. Truly world class idiots. There is no way that they should have let that guy do that interview. It was one of the creepiest things I have seen in a long time.

The only bright spot to their idiocy is that, eventually, that might translate to the truly boneheaded move of allowing Sandusky to testify during the trial. I would pay ANY amount of money to see that cross-examination. In fact I would love to have the opportunity to cross him myself. Just eat that f****r alive.

[Billy]

OR, you are a defense lawyer tired of defending criminals who prey on children and decided that your client SHOULD do an interview.....

Unlikely cause to champion, given the fact that Joe Amendola fathered a child with 16 year-old in the mid 90's.

[PMI]

Did anyone hear LaVar Arrington's rant on the radio station in DC? They just played it on ESPN. Damn. I realize that Sandusky couldn't apologize to the victims in his interview because it would seem like an admission of guilt...but Arrington made some good points. And the emotion. Wow. That guy is pissed...regardless of innocence or guilt....he is pissed that Sandusky didn't apologize about how these events have affected the victims, Penn State and all of players that have ever played for Penn State. It was pretty rivoting stuff....I'd try googling it if you haven't heard it.

If (when) Sandusky is found guilty....an 8X10 cell with Arrington for about an hour might seem like a good punishment. ANGER, people....ANGER.

I listen to his show sometimes but missed that one. It surprises me though, as he was being very diplomatic about the situation before, IMO. He was basically playing the innocent until proven guilty card, and showing more sadness than anger, but I'm glad he finally let it out. Arrington can come across as a stubborn moron sometimes (and his co-host is a worthless turd) but he also can make some pretty good points, and he's obviously got his connections to PSU and Sandusky. Sandusky may as well say "I'm guilty of it all" because he's not doing himself any favors in that interview.

[boozehound]

Unlikely cause to champion, given the fact that Joe Amendola fathered a child with 16 year-old in the mid 90's.

I didn't realize that.

You just can't make this stuff up. So Jerry Sandusky, clearly a pedophile, hires an attorney who also has had a sexual relationship with a child?

I wonder if they met at some sort of secret pedophila meeting sponsored by Penn State? At this point nothing would surpirse me.

[BBC 08]

I wonder if they met at some sort of secret pedophila meeting sponsored by Penn State?

PSU is a sponsor of NAMBLA.

[drudy23]

All of the things that keep coming out just lead to more questions....was Paterno using this against the administration to keep him on staff (how many of you thought "jesus, there's no way they're going to let this guy coach ANOTHER year), not realizing it would bring him down too?

What type of "hush" money was McQuery getting to ensure he never said a word?

Was Penn State just a big ole pedophile factory where coaches and administration were involved (already reports of a professor sexually abusing another victim)?

Something bigger than what has been reported has happened...Sandusky apparently is one very well connected person. Who sold their souls to the devil for some type of benefit in this case?

[waggy]

NAMBLA. I had heard the reference before, but before today I didn't know what it stood for. Wow, I can't believe that such an organization actually exists.

[Billy]

All of the things that keep coming out just lead to more questions....was Paterno using this against the administration to keep him on staff (how many of you thought "jesus, there's no way they're going to let this guy coach ANOTHER year), not realizing it would bring him down too?

What type of "hush" money was McQuery getting to ensure he never said a word?

Was Penn State just a big ole pedophile factory where coaches and administration were involved (already reports of a professor sexually abusing another victim)?

Something bigger than what has been reported has happened...Sandusky apparently is one very well connected person. Who sold their souls to the devil for some type of benefit in this case?

Not to sound like a broken record, but I honestly think it could be as simple as fear and influence. These people were all gainfully employed. You had people looking out for their own best interests, not wanting to lose jobs they already had....and that alone could be enough for them to internally justify remaining silent and enabling a serial child molester. Maybe to some, they didn't understand the extent of Sandusky's crimes, and looked at the episodes they knew about as "spilled milk" or someone else's problem...not fully understanding their silence was enabling a serial child molester.

I don't think the place is/was a pedophile factory. There was never going to be a "good time" for this to surface. They held onto a lie that just kept getting worse and worse for them as Sandusky continued to do bad things to kids.

My guess is the PSU folks planned that any backlash would be largely minimized when Paterno left. If this story came out after he was gone, people wouldn't care as much. But Paterno hung around....and so the story is obviously huge...and they're all going down together.

[GoMuskies]

When all is said and done, will Penn State still be a member of the Big Ten? Discuss.

[pizza delivery]

Has anyone read "The Devil in the White City"? It was a best seller about 4 years ago and it told the story of a serial killer in Chicago during the World's Fair in 1892. By the end of the story, when the killer has been caught, truly a devil, he at first writes a letter to the country that is published in the paper stating his innocence. It was writing emphatically and persuasively with the same guile that allowed him to victimize so many. As the evidence mounts, it turns out he admits it finally. But what he said at the end was troubling. He basically said he was the devil. His house of horrors was burnt down mysteriously (by one of his cronies? it didn't seem likely). He had it made so that he was buried under so much concrete that his body couldn't be desecrated as he feared. He basically controlled his downfall like he was able to control his murderous network of lies. Anyway, I consider this Sandusky case to be capable of nearing the same profile. I really think Sandusky is extremely dangerous and powerful in an evil way. I hope there are brave good people that will pursue every darkness surrounding this case.

[Billy]

When all is said and done, will Penn State still be a member of the Big Ten? Discuss.

I would bet they will be...unless as drudy implies, there are few more layers that we haven't gotten to yet.

[X-band '01]

NAMBLA. I had heard the reference before, but before today I didn't know what it stood for. Wow, I can't believe that such an organization actually exists.

That's what I found out after watching South Park - I just assumed it was one of their sick jokes. Sadly, that's not the case.

[XULucho27]

That's what I found out after watching South Park - I just assumed it was one of their sick jokes. Sadly, that's not the case.

What? The National Association of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes? What do they have to do with this?

Love that episode.

[Porkopolis]

Has anyone read "The Devil in the White City"? It was a best seller about 4 years ago and it told the story of a serial killer in Chicago during the World's Fair in 1892. By the end of the story, when the killer has been caught, truly a devil, he at first writes a letter to the country that is published in the paper stating his innocence. It was writing emphatically and persuasively with the same guile that allowed him to victimize so many. As the evidence mounts, it turns out he admits it finally. But what he said at the end was troubling. He basically said he was the devil. His house of horrors was burnt down mysteriously (by one of his cronies? it didn't seem likely). He had it made so that he was buried under so much concrete that his body couldn't be desecrated as he feared. He basically controlled his downfall like he was able to control his murderous network of lies. Anyway, I consider this Sandusky case to be capable of nearing the same profile. I really think Sandusky is extremely dangerous and powerful in an evil way. I hope there are brave good people that will pursue every darkness surrounding this case.

I think there is something to that. By the way if you enjoyed that book check out In the Garden of Beasts by the same author. It follows the US Ambassador to Germany and his family during their time in 1930s Berlin. Fascinating and scary stuff.

[MADXSTER]

McQueary is being dragged through the mud a HELL of a lot more than Paterno or even Sandusky!! What the hell is wrong with people.

You want to give McQueary shit then okay but don't forget about Sandusky and Paterno!!

This whole incident should be taken away from the city, county and possibly the state. The police chief telling the dectective to drop the case in 1999. The DA turning up missing with the hard drive ripped out of his computer. Cover-up/looking the other way by the University.

This investigation should be done by a department outside of this area.

[LadyMuskie]

I wasn't going to comment on this because it has me so emotional. But . . .

In my book, every single person (save the victims) associated with this will burn in hell for all eternity. From Sandusky to Paterno to McQueary to all the administrators and the president of the university - they should be thrown into general population at the nearest penitentiary and let the inmates handle them. I'm guessing they'll all find out soon enough how those boys felt and I don't feel even one ounce of pity for them.


Based on Sandusky's intereview, he still doesn't get it. I'm not excusing him, because if he had touched my kid, they'd still be searching for bits and pieces of him. Yet, anyone who looks at a child and sees a sexual object has a couple of screws loose. It's not normal to rape a child. It's not normal to rape an adult. Anyone who can do that has a mental sickness. It doesn't mean that they can't tell right from wrong or that they should be excused, but they are dealing with some sort of mental imbalance. Sandusky should pay and spend the rest of his pathetic, disgusting life in prison, but I do believe that he has a mental sickness that allowed him to have and act on urges to have sex with kids. It's disgusting and it isn't normal.

And then there's McQueary. Supposedly not someone who is mentally imbalanced in any way. He is missing a soul, apparently, but it would appear that he, himself, I assume, is not a pedophile. How do you see a child being raped and not stop it? He's just as guilty of that rape as Sandusky is in my book. He stood by literally and figuratively and let that happen. I know he's saying now that he went to the police, but I don't believe it. I think he's saying that now so that people will find him a more sympathetic character. I don't know how he gets up every morning and looks at himself in the mirror. I don't know how he can go through an hour without seeing that image in his mind and know that he did nothing to end the horror and pain that that little boy must have been going through.

I think people hate him because he had the chance to be the hero and didn't even try to be the good guy. He had the chance to be like the guy who runs in to the burning building to save the kid, but instead he was the guy who only saves himself. How selfish and despicable! How morally corrupt can one person be? I think people hate him because he is everything that is wrong with our society. Too many people just stand idly by while others commit heinous crimes and think "oh well. doesn't concern me." But it does. It does concern all of us. These kids are the future, whether we like it or not, and now we've got boys who will and have grown into men who will carry this tortuous baggage with them throughout their lives. Why didn't he try to lessen that burden somewhat? Why didn't he try to help in any way? What is wrong with him that he could have stayed at that place for 10 years after what he witnessed?

It's bad enough that the crime was committed at all. That a monster like Sandusky was allowed to be around children is unforgivable. But, to think that in at least one instance, one little boy's torture could have ended immediately if the "man" who witnessed the rape had not been such a soulless coward, well, it's doubly disturbing. Are there no good people left? McQueary might not be a child rapist, but apparently he finds nothing wrong with it either. As a mother, there are not words to describe the feelings I have for men like Sandusky (or women who commit similar crimes). The hatred I feel, no matter how un-Christian like it might be, is overwhelming for people who commit crimes against children. McQueary committed a crime against that boy too and he deserves every ounce of ridicule he gets and any prison term that he receives as judgment for his crimes.

I'm not a very good Catholic. I don't have pity or forgiveness in my heart for any of these "men" and I never will. I don't really care that McQueary is afraid for his life. McQueary is not more reviled than Sandusky, IMO. People can loathe more than one person at a time. Maybe Paterno is getting a "pass" from some, but I don't think that that is really the case. I think the problem is that McQueary actually saw it with his own two eyes and could have stopped it but didn't. Paterno knew about it I'm sure, but at this point there's no evidence that he actually witnessed it and didn't stop it. Again, unforgivable, but there's still something that just sticks around when you think that someone saw something like that and didn't stop it. God forbid McQueary ever needs help because I think he's going to find that you reap what you sow in life.

[GoMuskies]

I'm curious your feelings on the Catholic Church LM. You mention being a Catholic still in your rant. Do you think Pope John Paul is burning in hell? And that's not a trick question or some attempt to make a point. Given your obviously strong feelings toward Penn State as an institution, I just wonder if your feelings are equally as strong towards the Catholic Church as an institution. And if not, why not. I assume all of us have struggled at least somewhat with the idea of being a Catholic in light of what was allowed to go on for so long.

[LadyMuskie]

You know, my answer to your question, Go, will be unpopular, but I don't believe it to be outside the realm of possibility. IMO, it is totally possible and maybe even likely.

Pope John Paul II was an advocate for bringing children to the church and making them a larger, more visible part of the Catholic family. Yet, at the same time he turned a blind eye to the victims of abuse by the men under his employ, for lack of a better term. I can't reconcile that. I don't know how anyone can. Some have argued with me that as Pope, it was unlikely that he had any idea of what was truly going on, and perhaps that is true. There is a part of me, the part that went to Catholic grade school, high school and then Xavier, that wants to believe that my Pope would not have abandoned the children of his faith at the time during which they needed him the most. That part of me almost desperately clings to the hope that he didn't know until he was so wrought with Parkinson's that he couldn't fully fix the situation or give it the kind of attention that it deserved. But, the part of me that is a realist and the part of me who had a not so pleasant situation with the archdiocese here in Cincinnati and my church when I was a teen (which did not deal with any kind of sexual encounter but had to do with my desire - at that time - to, of all things, lector at Sunday mass) says that he did know and that he and his cardinals, like our current pope, felt it was worth it to throw a couple members of the flock under the bus in order to "protect" the church; an idea that I believe Jesus would have found reprehensible and unforgivable.


I do not believe, for even a second, that the Jesus we read about in the Gospels, whether canonical or Gnostic, would ever have approved of how the situation was handled and no one will ever convince me otherwise.


Is John Paul II burning in hell? I don't know. He did an awful lot of good in his lifetime, especially in Poland behind the iron curtain. So, does that outweigh turning a blind eye to his priests raping and/or sodomizing children? I don't really think so, but I suppose it is possible. I don't think you can, for example, commit the murder of a child on Monday, but then save the life of a woman on Tuesday and have the two cancel each other out, so to speak. Some acts are just so bad that they cannot be forgiven, and in my mind, there is nothing worse than harming a child - whether you do it yourself, watch someone else do it, or just allow it to happen by turning away. Do I think that John Paul II should be a saint? No. I especially do not believe that his sainthood should be fast tracked.

I know, I'll be lambasted for my opinions on this topic (especially on this board), and maybe I'm way off base. It is just my opinion and I know that it makes me a lousy Catholic in the eyes of some people. So be it. If you go solely by the "rules" and "laws" of the Church, then yes, I'm a lousy Catholic and I'll embrace that wholeheartedly. My views on a great many things differ from that of the Catholic Church, and I sleep fine at night in any event. I know what my faith is, I know what I believe and how I live my life each and every day. I don't believe that I have to have the blessing, for lack of a better word, of the Catholic Church, in order to be the kind of Catholic that adds to the glory of God or that leads people to Christ. I don't believe the pope is infallible and I do believe that John Paul II and Benedict after him will answer to God for what they have done just as so many popes before them have done as well. I would be lying if I said that I thought every man who has sat in the Vatican is now in heaven. In fact, the more I read about the history of the Church and the men who ran it, the more inclined I am to believe that there are probably more popes sharing a room in hell than in heaven. We haven't had too many true "Men of God" leading this Church, and I think that the struggle the Catholic Church finds itself in today is evidence of that.

I'm not perfect and I have many faults for which I should atone, but I know, without hesitation, that I would not allow a child to be raped while I stood by and did nothing even if it meant I got hurt in the process of saving that child. And I know that if I were in a position of power, I would not allow my subordinates to perpetrate these kinds of heinous acts on children regardless of what the outcome might be for me or my organization. In my opinion, a person truly committed to fulfilling Christ's Word will always put the other person's safety and well-being ahead of the his own interests, especially if that person in need is a child or someone incapable of fending for himself or herself.

[LadyMuskie]

And I should add that I am a member of my parish, as is my husband. I love my parish. I don't care a whole lot for our pastor (who we - the parishioners- believe has a mistress and maybe a child and grandchild, although that's obviously more acceptable to me than him raping altar boys), but I love the people in our parish and the small size of our parish. Our last two priests were wonderful men (one was Xavier grad who is now, I believe at St. Vincent de Paul) and we miss them. We had our daughter baptized Catholic and we were married in the Catholic Church, although in the reverse order of how I typed that. Our daughter will attend our parish school and then either Mercy, Seton or Ursula before she attends Xavier, or in the worst case scenario some other Jesuit university.

I think, however, that the Vatican is doing the parishes a disservice on a great many things and that many parish priests, nuns, and brothers have a better view of the real world and how to truly connect with people in a way that the Vatican will never understand. We support our parish and give to those causes that will directly benefit our parish and not the archdiocese or Rome.

I had a great professor at X (who I won't name because I don't want to get him in trouble with anyone in case he's still teaching) who was a Jesuit, and he told our class one day that the Catholic Church as an idea was likely the most beautiful God-like thing on Earth. That its direct ties to Jesus and the apostles made it a unique and heavenly manifestation of God's Kingdom on Earth. But that the Catholic Church as practiced was likely the most corrupt, un-Godly organization on Earth. He went on to say that you were unlikely to find much of God in St. Peter's in Rome and more likely to find Him in a tiny village church 100 miles down the road in a place no pope would ever fathom to set foot. I agreed with him then and I still agree today, but then, like the Jesuits, I am not favored by the Church.

[MADXSTER]

My understanding is that McQueary not only confronted and stopped Sandusky but took the boy home. Went home and told his dad. Told Paterno the next day.

There are a lot of arm chaired quarterbacks on this topic. EVERYONE saying 'If it were ME, I would have...' BULLCRAP. the better response would be 'If it were me, I HOPE I would....


I say this because about 5 days after moving into our house(living on a busy street) there was a loud thunderous auto accident. In the middle of the street was a demolished car. The other vehicle was found about 5 minutes later a couple of houses down up against a house.

Myself and another person tried to help the person thrown out of the car, blood coming out of his ears, nose and mouth. Many others simply stood and watched from the sidewalk. The guy ended up in a coma and latter passed away.

Most people like to think they know what they would do but most really do not.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

My understanding is that McQueary not only confronted and stopped Sandusky but took the boy home. Went home and told his dad. Told Paterno the next day.

There are a lot of arm chaired quarterbacks on this topic. EVERYONE saying 'If it were ME, I would have...' BULLCRAP. the better response would be 'If it were me, I HOPE I would....


I say this because about 5 days after moving into our house(living on a busy street) there was a loud thunderous auto accident. In the middle of the street was a demolished car. The other vehicle was found about 5 minutes later a couple of houses down up against a house.

Myself and another person tried to help the person thrown out of the car, blood coming out of his ears, nose and mouth. Many others simply stood and watched from the sidewalk. The guy ended up in a coma and latter passed away.

Most people like to think they know what they would do but most really do not.

There is much much more to this story that will come out. Here's more detail on the McQuery stuff

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/sports/ncaafootball/internet-posting-helped-sandusky-investigators.html?smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto

'Sandusky's charity "Second Mile" has told investigators that several years of records are missing.'

After listening to Sandusky's interview, I believe he has the mental capacity of a 2 year old. I honestly don't think that he thinks he has done anything wrong - he's that far gone. Therefore, I believe there is absolutely no way he could have pulled this all off on his own for so long without tremendous help from those with considerable power(obviously a plethora of evidence points to this with much more to come). Just how far up does it go? Was Madden right about the 'pimping out kids to rich donors?" Who all was involved? The feds absolutely have to get involved. Local and state authorities are absolutely not trustworthy in any of this

[GoMuskies]

Thanks for the posts LadyMuskie. Certainly an interesting perspective.

[bleedXblue]

If I have sympathy for anyone its McQueary....and I don't have much, but.......

He did go to Joe Pa and report what he saw.

He did inform the President and Athletic Director of what he witnessed.

Those three assholes covered this whole thing up.

Listen folks, WE DON'T KNOW IF MCQUEARY DID OR DIDNT DO SOMETHING WHILE THE RAPE WAS OCCURING.

The AD and President should be shot. Let's not waste a single tax payer dollar on those two scumbags.

In my book, Paterno is right there with them. How in the hell could he have not done anything beyond reporting in to the AD ?

I would have driven my car straight to Sandusky's home to confront him. Then I would have driven straight to the police department.

All of this happened b/c several people were worried about the image and fall out that a situation like this has on whether or not you win or lose football games.

What a travesty......and a lot of it could have been avoided if just one person would have done the right thing.

There going to start calling Penn State....State Penn, b/c A LOT of people are going to jail for a long, long time.

[KC4X]

My understanding is that McQueary not only confronted and stopped Sandusky but took the boy home. Went home and told his dad. Told Paterno the next day.


I heard the same thing about McQueary, Madxster.

However, even if he hadn't, who are we to judge? I agree that sitting back and not doing something is part of the problem, but some people may not have the fortitude or ability to speak up and/or act. I am not in their shoes and cannot begin to judge whether or not they should be able to. Those who do have the courage and ability have a greater responsibility to do so. You cannot look at someone and know all of their history and mental/emotional/physical capacity to deal with specific situations. It’s a different situation entirely, but I feel the same way when someone makes a racist remark or acts as a bully. To “let it slide” is to perpetuate the issues.

[LadyMuskie]

My understanding is that McQueary not only confronted and stopped Sandusky but took the boy home. Went home and told his dad. Told Paterno the next day.

There are a lot of arm chaired quarterbacks on this topic. EVERYONE saying 'If it were ME, I would have...' BULLCRAP. the better response would be 'If it were me, I HOPE I would....


I say this because about 5 days after moving into our house(living on a busy street) there was a loud thunderous auto accident. In the middle of the street was a demolished car. The other vehicle was found about 5 minutes later a couple of houses down up against a house.

Myself and another person tried to help the person thrown out of the car, blood coming out of his ears, nose and mouth. Many others simply stood and watched from the sidewalk. The guy ended up in a coma and latter passed away.

Most people like to think they know what they would do but most really do not.

I understand that that is what McQueary is saying now, but it isn't what he testified to in the grand jury. If he did that, if he took that boy home and called police, then why not say so in grand jury testimony? Why keep it a secret until now when he looks like the world's second worst person? I've read more than once that he witnessed it and ran and called his father on the phone to ask him what he should do because he (McQueary) was distraught. Boo hoo for him. I wonder how the boy felt. Now, there's this whole new story that he stopped the rape, but not physically, (whatever the hell that means) and called police. Of course, before he wasn't receiving death threats so the fact that he acted like the soulless coward he is didn't matter so much. Now that everyone knows he's a soulless coward he wants to change his story so that it looks as if he stopped the rape in a non-physical sense and called police but then kept it all a secret so he could make a dramatic pronouncement at some later time. Please. Let's not kid ourselves. The simpler story is almost always the true story, and in the case the simple story is the grand jury testimony and not some emailed garbage about stopping a rape in a non-physical sense.

And, you know, I can say that I know what I would do. I have stepped in before when I've seen a child being hurt. I've never witnessed raped admittedly, but I've stepped in when I've witnessed bullying or when I've seen a parent hitting a child severely over something silly, like wanting a quarter to play an arcade game in the cart area of Kroger. I have put myself out there in order to keep a kid from getting hurt to the best of my ability. I don't think I've saved a life or that I made some great impact or that I'm a hero, but if by stepping in some kid saw some good in another human being, then it was worth it. I know myself and I know that my mama bear instincts are such that I protect kids in big and small ways because they're defenseless. For me, it isn't bullcrap. Sometimes there are things you just know and I know if I had been McQueary I wouldn't have left that locker room without that boy and I know we would have gone straight to the hospital where we would have met the police and I would have testified from every hilltop what I witnessed. I couldn't live with myself otherwise. I know that about myself.

If McQueary has to lie about it what he saw and did to make himself feel better, then he's even more pathetic than I originally thought. If he did stop the rape and take the boy home (which is still wrong because he should have taken him to the police or the hospital to get evaluated) then he needs to get himself a good lawyer because he perjured himself during grand jury testimony and doesn't have the good sense God gave goats.

[LadyMuskie]

I heard the same thing about McQueary, Madxster.

However, even if he hadn't, who are we to judge? I agree that sitting back and not doing something is part of the problem, but some people may not have the fortitude or ability to speak up and/or act. I am not in their shoes and cannot begin to judge whether or not they should be able to. Those who do have the courage and ability have a greater responsibility to do so. You cannot look at someone and know all of their history and mental/emotional/physical capacity to deal with specific situations. It’s a different situation entirely, but I feel the same way when someone makes a racist remark or acts as a bully. To “let it slide” is to perpetuate the issues.

If you believe rape is wrong and you witness a rape then the only logical next step is to try to stop it and contact the police to report to the crime scene (because it is a crime). Now, if you are mentally incapable of deciding whether or not rape is wrong, then you don't run off to your boss to report it. So, here's where McQueary's story is muddled. If he had the "fortitude" to go to his boss, a so-called football god, and report the incident, then he was obviously lucid enough to know that what he saw was indeed not only illegal but also morally reprehensible. So, yeah, I'm going to judge him as being a soulless coward who deserves every single bit of ridicule he receives. This "man" was a football player who not only had the strength physically to stop the rape, but who also had the mental tools necessary to compete on the field week after week defending and helping his teammates. You are not going to convince anyone that he couldn't "handle" the situation because he was too weak mentally or physically. He's a coward. Simple as that. He isn't the kind of man I'd want in my life or in my daughter's life.

You know, we as humans seem to have a great capacity for turning a blind eye and it's sad. We let people own other people. We let Hitler kill millions of Jews. We let countries like Rwanda and the Sudan kill each other to near extinction. Sometimes we get fed up enough because our own interests are in jeopardy and we fight on behalf of the down trodden and then pat ourselves on the back for ending the atrocity. And then after we look back and say "Gee. How horrible. We all really need to stand up for each other and never allow these kinds of things to happen again." But, then we do allow it to happen, sometimes on a large scale and sometimes on a small scale. Don't misunderstand my point. McQueary isn't a Nazi or Pol Pot, but he didn't step in when he could have. He didn't stop it the way he could have. At what point do we as human beings, the top of the food chain, the superior beings on this planet, get fed up enough that we stop making excuses as to why we don't stop the bad we see? At what point do we stop saying that it's okay to witness a crime and not do anything about because you're not made of some mythical strong moral fiber. It's almost easier to stop a smaller crime because we don't have nations complicating things. We just have human interaction. We don't all have to be Superman, but we do owe it to each other to try. McQueary should have stopped the rape and there is no excuse for not doing so.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

SPORTSbyBROOKS SPORTSbyBROOKS
PA Gov.: Discovered Sandusky abuse in '08 but NEVER told charity + gave $3M to Sandusky pet project 3 mos ago bit.ly/vZl63x

PSU Trustees sold Sandusky land for pet project in '01 meeting. PSU's atty in that meeting knew about '98, said nothing http://bit.ly

http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/gov-funded-sandusky-pet-project-hid-his-abuse-29901

SPORTSbyBROOKS SPORTSbyBROOKS
Pennsylvania Governor knew the founder of a childrens charity was child rapist for 3 yrs & never told them. Criminal. bit.ly/vZl63x

SPORTSbyBROOKS SPORTSbyBROOKS
PSU Atty Wendell Courtney knew Sandusky showered w/ children & still allowed Penn St to sell him land. Courtney was present for transaction.

SPORTSbyBROOKS SPORTSbyBROOKS
Governor who knew all about Sandusky abuse actually halted $3M grant to Sandusky's charity in early 2011. Then re-released it 3 mos ago.

[BBC 08]

And then there's McQueary. Supposedly not someone who is mentally imbalanced in any way. He is missing a soul, apparently, but it would appear that he, himself, I assume, is not a pedophile.

Of course he is. He's a Ginger.

[MADXSTER]

Damn LadyMuskie, since you got some serious hate going on, Why don't you hate on Sandusky since he's the one who committed the multiple rapes. Not saying you can't hate on McQueary but damn, how about some priorities.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Report: Alleged Sandusky Victims From As Far Back As The 1970s Contact Lawyers

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201111/report-alleged-sandusky-victims-far-back-1970s-contact-lawyers

[LadyMuskie]

Damn LadyMuskie, since you got some serious hate going on, Why don't you hate on Sandusky since he's the one who committed the multiple rapes. Not saying you can't hate on McQueary but damn, how about some priorities.

You're funny. Really. My priorities are screwed up? How do you come to that?

I do hate Sandusky. Believe me. Hate isn't even strong enough to describe the feeling I have. Loathing would be more appropriate. That doesn't mean, however, that I can't also have the same feelings for the man who could have stopped it and didn't.

Moreover you didn't ask if people hate Sandusky. You wanted to know why people were so upset with McQueary and I answered that question and gave you some reasons why people loathe McQueary. I never once said that I didn't feel the same way about Sandusky or that I don't hold Sandusky responsible for his despicable actions. I'm capable of having more than one emotion about more than one person at a time. You know, not to beat a dead horse, but I loathe Hitler, but I still have room for loathing for Josef Goebels. I loathe Bin Laden for what he did, but I also loathe those men who hijacked the airplanes and flew them into the Towers. Why are we supposed to give McQueary a pass for not doing the right thing? Why should he be left alone when he witnessed a despicable crime and didn't do anything to stop it? Why should we pretend that he was so delicate he couldn't handle it, but then somehow or other managed to continue working at the same place where he witnessed this act for 10 years? It doesn't sound to me like he was too worked up over it. A normal person with a heart and soul wouldn't have been able to continue working there knowing that at least one boy was raped and no one did anything about it.

Look, the whole thing is so bad I hate reading about it, hearing about it and talking about it. But, I'm not going to pretend that McQueary is some poor misunderstood, frightened, delicate person who was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. My opinion - if the families of these kids don't want to handle these scumbags in their own way, then put Sandusky, McQueary and Paterno in a cell together in general population and let the other prisoners figure them out. Give em a taste of their own medicine and see if they enjoy it. At least they'll be adults and not innocent, defenseless kids trying to have fun at a football camp.

My priorities are right where they should be. Anyone messes with my kids, and they had best sleep with both eyes open because I'm going to come at them with everything and anything I can. Have you ever seen the movie An Eye for Eye with Sally Field? That would be me. I'm an equal opportunity hater. I'll go for the perpetrator of the crime and anyone who knew about it or let it happen. I guess I'm a little bit like George W. Bush when it comes to that. I don't discriminate between the bad guy and those who help him out along the way. They're all evil and they all deserve whatever karma throws their way.

[paulxu]

Right about here is where I generally insert a caution about not getting the women riled up. But I think I'm a little late.

[LadyMuskie]

Right about here is where I generally insert a caution about not getting the women riled up. But I think I'm a little late.

Really, I should have started my first post on this topic with the disclaimer that I'm overly emotional right now (you can all keep your women jokes to yourselves! ;) ) due to being a human incubator and this whole nightmare at Penn St. has me madder than a wet cat. I'll get back to my old self eventually. Poor MadX just got the worst of it. I tried to stay away from this thread as long as possible, but, well, here we are. So, I hope MadX doesn't take any of it personally and knows that I know that we're all on the same side of hating these walking soulless bags of douche-i-ness!

:o

[DC Muskie]

But why punish Penn State's players? What did those kids ever do to deserve having their game forfeited? Their game on Saturday is at home against Nebraska and is also Senior Day. Should the guys who did nothing but play their butts off for their school have to surrender the right to be honored for their efforts, a right every other senior before them has enjoyed, because of the depraved actions of their superiors? I think that's a bit harsh.

Down the road, if there are sanctions for the football program as a whole for not maintaining a safe environment and allowing that piece of scum to just hang around (as recently as last week!!) then I'll be behind it. But I don't think the players need to be punished because they just happen to play for Penn State when this all went down. They're not, to my understanding, complicit in the reprehensible behavior.

FWIW, I do agree with your assertion that forfeiting the rest of their games harms not only Penn State, but the other universities as well.

On an unrelated note: How has McQueary not been forced to at least take a mandatory leave of absence? And how has Tim Curley not been fired yet (it's my understanding he's taken a leave of absence, but hasn't been relieved of his position yet).

I know this is a little late, and the game was already played...but this aspect of the situation at Penn State that really bothers me.

Why would we refer to "punishing" the players had they not played that game? Why is that a "punishment?" To me the easiest thing to do was to play the game. I find it funny how the media for the most part talk about how devastated State College was last week, and then they play a game, and now "the healing can begin."

Really? The healing can now begin because we brushed aside a week in which a coach, an AD, a senior vice president and a president all lost their jobs for allowing a monster operate in their midst? The students rioted in the middle of the week, and the coach was wandering around telling them to pray a little bit for the victims, and oh by the way, "Beat Nebraska." If this is not a reason to cancel a game, then what the hell is? Those kids who play football don't have the "right" to play; ever. It's a privilege to play. Not playing is not "punishing" them, it's telling everyone in that community that there are things more important then players "Senior day" or what could happen in the standings, and other unimportant things related to football in the future.

At the end of the season Penn State is going to play in a bowl game. But which bowl is going to take them with all of this swirling around the program? It's like Penn State feels the need to make sure they continue to play, because the only way people can heal from this incredible horrible circumstances, is by watching Penn State on the field.

I don't understand that and am a little disappointed that a week later, the focus is still on playing the game, don't stop it, and allow the legal system to play out and continue to open the wounds.

[LadyMuskie]

Geez. How many more of these stories are we going to start hearing now? So sad!

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7248184/syracuse-police-investigating-bernie-fine-molesting-boy-1980s

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Geez. How many more of these stories are we going to start hearing now? So sad!

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7248184/syracuse-police-investigating-bernie-fine-molesting-boy-1980s

Lady,

Heres another one from Citadel:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57326733-504083/man-accused-of-sexually-abusing-boys-at-the-citadel-worked-with-kids-for-10-years/

[golfitup]

Since the trial started up on Monday I've immersed myself into this sordid affair once again. The testimony has been very grim if you want to read about it. It's not hard to find. One thing I can't understand is why there is no discussion of Penn State receiving the death penalty for the football program. Seems like a pretty easy decision to me.

[kyxu]

One thing I can't understand is why there is no discussion of Penn State receiving the death penalty for the football program. Seems like a pretty easy decision to me.

Though the acts involved a member of the football program, this isn't really a football or compliance issue. Therefore, I wouldn't think athletic penalties would be handed down to Penn State by the NCAA.

It's a grave criminal matter and, in my opinion, should be handled as such.

[Cheesehead]

Though the acts involved a member of the football program, this isn't really a football or compliance issue. Therefore, I wouldn't think athletic penalties would be handed down to Penn State by the NCAA.

It's a grave criminal matter and, in my opinion, should be handled as such.

I agree. It has nothing do w/ NCAA violations. Leave it to the Courts to decide but what a sicko!

[waggy]

I don't know what the NCAA's definition of "lack of institutional control" is, but in general terms this situation would seem to fit. Just throwing it out there.

[Cheesehead]

I don't know what the NCAA's definition of "lack of institutional control" is, but in general terms this situation would seem to fit. Just throwing it out there.

but nothing to do with recruiting, booster stuff, gifts, money, phone calls, etc.,

It is just not the same thing.

[golfitup]

but nothing to do with recruiting, booster stuff, gifts, money, phone calls, etc.,

It is just not the same thing.

You're right. It has to do with raping little boys in the football locker room showers.

[kyxu]

I don't know what the NCAA's definition of "lack of institutional control" is, but in general terms this situation would seem to fit. Just throwing it out there.

"Lack of institutional control" when it comes to compliance with NCAA regulations, e.g. conferring benefits on players and taking potential dollars away from the NCAA. They don't really care much about anything else.

No argument that rape isn't worse than selling some jerseys for tattoos, but I doubt the NCAA really touches this beyond what Penn State has self-imposed.

[Ledgewood]

Seems to me like lots of people that were involved with Penn State's football/athletic programs were covering up serious crimes for a long time. So fucking with recruiting is bad and deserves penalty but the same people letting children get raped repeatedly doesn't deserve penalty? Seems weird to me.

[X-band '01]

There was definitely a culture of coverup all the way up the food chain over at Penn State. But the NCAA just doesn't have the jurisdiction to hand out punishment in a case like this.

[kyxu]

Seems to me like lots of people that were involved with Penn State's football/athletic programs were covering up serious crimes for a long time. So fucking with recruiting is bad and deserves penalty but the same people letting children get raped repeatedly doesn't deserve penalty? Seems weird to me.

The whole thing has nothing to do with the student-athlete or one trying to profit, so the NCAA cares little and will let the judicial system run its course.

But really, what do you all think the NCAA should do, or specifically, whom should it punish? Chances are, any sanctions that would be handed down would punish the current players from Penn State, who had absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

Grown men are facing life sentences, people have been fired. Anything the NCAA would do would likely be misdirected.

[Ledgewood]

Right but what about all the OSU students that didnt get tats or cars? They still got punished.

[kyxu]

Right but what about all the OSU students that didnt get tats or cars? They still got punished.

Again, that concerned student athletes.

NCAA sanctions are largely punitive in nature, and are meant to deter. Lesson? Don't try to profit from your work as a student athlete by selling your shit.

This whole incident at Penn State had little to do with college sports, and even less to do with student athletes.

[Ledgewood]

I get what youre saying, it just doesnt make sense to me. I know OSU's had to do with a few athletes, but what about the ones that had nothing to do with it? Why are they punished? This was going on right in the heart of the football program and its the worst thing ever. Just because no one tried to profit from it or gain an illegal recruiting edge doesn't mean that athletic program shouldnt be punished.

[Snipe]

I noticed that all the victims were male.

[vee4xu]

I read stories about the first day's testimony and found it despicable. I am done ready anything more about the case. If true, Sandusky is one of history's most prolific pedophiles, who may for all we know created his foundation simply to supply him with victims. By the way, where the hell was his wife during all of this. Seems like she should be brought up on charges for not turning in her husband. The whole thing is despicable.

[UCGRAD4X]

From the testimony of the victims and the lack of serious defense, I'm surprised this was even brought to trial.

Does Sandusky really want all this made public, or does the prosecutor want to make Sandusky suffer humiliation and shame by not offering a plea?

I can even understand the idea of allowing the victims to have their 'day in court'.

It's just so repulsive and overwhelming it would seem to be making it worse for the defendant....deservedly so.....

[danaandvictory]

From the testimony of the victims and the lack of serious defense, I'm surprised this was even brought to trial.

Does Sandusky really want all this made public, or does the prosecutor want to make Sandusky suffer humiliation and shame by not offering a plea?

I can even understand the idea of allowing the victims to have their 'day in court'.

It's just so repulsive and overwhelming it would seem to be making it worse for the defendant....deservedly so.....

I think Sandusky is a delusional narcissist who honestly believes that the jury will acquit him. And his legal team -- well, let's just say they probably travel 19 to a car.

[golfitup]

Death Penalty is the only reasonable outcome after what came out today. JoePa is lucky he's dead.

[Snipe]

It is important for people to note that not all homosexuals prey on children, just a statistically disproportionate number of them.

[boozehound]

Death Penalty is the only reasonable outcome after what came out today. JoePa is lucky he's dead.

I think we should bring back some medieval torture techniques for these a-holes. Spanish inquisition style.

[ChicagoX]

It is important for people to note that not all homosexuals prey on children, just a statistically disproportionate number of them.

What the hell does this comment have to do with anything that was reported today? Why do you have to take a shot at homosexuals in light of an investigation against a convicted pedophile?

While we're at it: "It is important for people to note that not all priests prey on children, just a statistically disproportionate number of them."

That quote is just as asinine and as completely unnecessary as your comment.

I've never understood why you continue to make so many comments that teeter on the edge of bigotry against the homosexual, African American and the Jewish communities. It's a college basketball board, not somewhere where people are invited to share their thinly veiled, yet hateful jabs against minorities in this country like you love to do.

[GoMuskies]

This shit needs to happen YESTERDAY to Paterno's statue in Happy Valley.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1394pV0KL1r65o3qo2_250.jpg

[principal]

What the hell does this comment have to do with anything that was reported today? Why do you have to take a shot at homosexuals in light of an investigation against a convicted pedophile?

While we're at it: "It is important for people to note that not all priests prey on children, just a statistically disproportionate number of them."

That quote is just as asinine and as completely unnecessary as your comment.

I've never understood why you continue to make so many comments that teeter on the edge of bigotry against the homosexual, African American and the Jewish communities. It's a college basketball board, not somewhere where people are invited to share their thinly veiled, yet hateful jabs against minorities in this country like you love to do.

From www.m-w.com:

Homosexual

1: of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex
2: of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex

Now, let's see, was Jerry Sandusky molesting children that were of the same sex as himself or the opposite sex?

[Snipe]

What the hell does this comment have to do with anything that was reported today? Why do you have to take a shot at homosexuals in light of an investigation against a convicted pedophile?

While we're at it: "It is important for people to note that not all priests prey on children, just a statistically disproportionate number of them."

That quote is just as asinine and as completely unnecessary as your comment.

I've never understood why you continue to make so many comments that teeter on the edge of bigotry against the homosexual, African American and the Jewish communities. It's a college basketball board, not somewhere where people are invited to share their thinly veiled, yet hateful jabs against minorities in this country like you love to do.

I do not think that a disproportionate number of priests preyed on children. I think that molestation was and is more prevalent in American government schools. I would agree that a disproportionate number of priests preyed on males as opposed to females. Homosexual pedophilia was a bigger problem in the church than heterosexual pedophilia.

I call them as I see them. If it offends you, rest assured that I am offended too. We should do more to protect those boys from their vile male predators.

And thanks for reminding me, I need to revive the "Amazing Jews" thread. It is about time for some Jew Lovin. If lovin Jews is wrong, I don't want to be right.

[Snipe]

From www.m-w.com:

Homosexual

1: of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex
2: of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex

Now, let's see, was Jerry Sandusky molesting children that were of the same sex as himself or the opposite sex?

Sometimes it really is that simple. Those who which to deny the nature of these crimes are not helping finding the solution in my opinion. The first thing we have to do is be honest about what is happening.


From WebMD (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/explaining-pedophilia)


Are pedophiles typically attracted to children of the opposite sex, same sex, or is there no particular pattern?

Most pedophiles have a definite preference for one sex or the other. But it's tough to estimate the percentage of pedophiles who are heterosexual, bisexual, and homosexual in their attraction to children, Blanchard says.


From Psychiatry Online (http://focus.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=53036)


Pedophiles are usually attracted to a particular age range and/or sex of child. Research categorizes male pedophiles by whether they are attracted to only male children (homosexual pedophilia), female children (heterosexual pedophilia), or children from both sexes (bisexual pedophilia) (3, 6, 10, 29). The percentage of homosexual pedophiles ranges from 9% to 40%, which is approximately 4 to 20 times higher than the rate of adult men attracted to other adult men (using a prevalence rate of adult homosexuality of 2%—4%)

Looks like Psychiatry Online is guilty of a hatecrime! If you look at their hatefacts, it appears that homosexual pedophilia is quite a problem. Even Chicago X's own example of the Catholic Church speaks to that. Stop the H8!

[stophorseabuse]

What the hell does this comment have to do with anything that was reported today? Why do you have to take a shot at homosexuals in light of an investigation against a convicted pedophile?

While we're at it: "It is important for people to note that not all priests prey on children, just a statistically disproportionate number of them."

That quote is just as asinine and as completely unnecessary as your comment.

I've never understood why you continue to make so many comments that teeter on the edge of bigotry against the homosexual, African American and the Jewish communities. It's a college basketball board, not somewhere where people are invited to share their thinly veiled, yet hateful jabs against minorities in this country like you love to do.

Sandusky= married man

Important to note not all married men rape children. Totally irrelevant.

Osama bin Laden, straight man, important to point out not all straight men murder thousands.

[Snipe]

Sandusky's wife was a beard. His children were adopted and he molested them too. I don't think he ever had sex with her, pure beard to shield what an ass boner that he was.

[Porkopolis]

I do not think that a disproportionate number of priests preyed on children. I think that molestation was and is more prevalent in American government schools.

I would love to see your proof of that.

[stophorseabuse]

I would say far far fewer teachers have sex with minors than the general public. They just always get massive media attention, and it is always caught. I have worked with thousands of teachers, and saw one guy get in trouble.

[stophorseabuse]

And the reason I say they are caught is because it deals with lots and lots of kids who all love to talk. Nothing getting covered up with teenage kids.

[Snipe]

I would love to see your proof of that.

It has been a few years since I was in that debate. I will try to look it up.

[Snipe]

Educator Sexual Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature (http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf)

“Sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests” (http://wizbangblog.com/2011/07/08/sexual-abuse-of-students-in-schools-is-likely-more-than-100-times-the-abuse-by-priests/)






Titled, “Educator Sexual Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature,” the report says the mistreatment of students ranges from sexual comments to rape.

In fact, says the studies author, Carol Shakeshaft, professor of educational administration at Hofstra University, in Hempstead, New York, the scope of the school sex problem appears to far exceed the clergy abuse scandal that has rocked the Roman Catholic Church.

Comparing the incidence of sexual misconduct in schools with the Catholic Church scandal, Shakeshift notes that a study by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops concluded that 10,667 young people were sexually mistreated by priests between 1950 and 2002.

In contrast, the extrapolates from a national survey conducted for the American Association of University Women Educational Foundation in 2000 that roughly 290,000 students experienced some sort of physical sexual abuse by a public school employee between 1991 and 2000.

The figures suggest “the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests,” said Shakshaft, according to Education Week.

Indeed, more than 4.5 million students are subject to sexual misconduct by an employee of a school sometime between kindergarden and 12th grade, says the report.

[Snipe]

From The New York Times, 2002

Silently Shifting Teachers in Sex Abuse Cases
By DIANA JEAN SCHEMO
Published: June 18, 2002 (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/18/us/silently-shifting-teachers-in-sex-abuse-cases.html)


When teachers are accused of sexual abuse, educators and law enforcement authorities say, districts often rid themselves of the problem by agreeing to keep quiet if the teacher moves on, sometimes even offering them a financial settlement. The practice, called passing the trash, avoids the difficulties of criminal prosecution or protracted disciplinary proceedings.

But districts on the receiving end of such transactions have begun suing the originating districts for civil damages when the teacher abuses again. So have the victims. Legislatures are also starting to crack down, mandating fingerprint and criminal record checks of teachers and protecting employers who give unfavorable references from lawsuits.

While no central authority tracks the number of teachers accused of molesting in one jurisdiction who then pick up teaching in another, Charol Shakeshaft, a professor of education administration at Hofstra University, studied 225 sexual abuse complaints against teachers made to federal authorities from 1990 to 1994 and found that in only 1 percent of the cases did superintendents follow up to ensure that molesting teachers did not continue teaching elsewhere. In 54 percent, superintendents accepted the teachers' resignations or retirements. Of the 121 teachers removed this way, administrators knew for certain that 16 percent resumed teaching in other districts.

Julie Underwood, general counsel for the National School Boards Association, acknowledged that allowing those accused of molestation to leave districts without a mark on their record was morally questionable. But she said school principals often did not have the time required to pursue disciplinary actions.

''It may take an entire week of time at hearings to dismiss a teacher,'' Ms. Underwood said.

Did you get that from Julie Underwood, the teacher's union lackey? She acknowledged that allowing molesters to go on teaching was "morally questionable". Mighty white of her. But the principles just don't have the time to deal with molesters!

Government schools!


In 1998, the trade paper Education Week compiled a list of 244 cases involving accusations of school sexual abuse that were then making their way through courts and disciplinary hearings. It concluded that teachers accused in one place were likely to have been accused elsewhere before.

When the Church does it in much smaller numbers it is SCANDAL! When government schools or Jewish Rabbis do it, not so much...

But we have all heard the jokes about Priests for sure. Somebody make a crack about Catholic Priests on this very thread. Funny stuff.

[Snipe]

CBS News

Has Media Ignored Sex Abuse In School? (http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-215_162-1933687.html)


Consider the statistics: In accordance with a requirement of President Bush's No Child Left Behind Act, in 2002 the Department of Education carried out a study of sexual abuse in the school system.

Hofstra University researcher Charol Shakeshaft looked into the problem, and the first thing that came to her mind when Education Week reported on the study were the daily headlines about the Catholic Church.

"[T]hink the Catholic Church has a problem?" she said. "The physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."

So, in order to better protect children, did media outlets start hounding the worse menace of the school systems, with headlines about a "Nationwide Teacher Molestation Cover-up" and by asking "Are Ed Schools Producing Pedophiles?"

No, they didn't. That treatment was reserved for the Catholic Church, while the greater problem in the schools was ignored altogether.

Sometimes I think the people that run our media have a bias against the Catholic Church. I wonder who runs the media and why they would have that bias?


Yet, during the first half of 2002, the 61 largest newspapers in California ran nearly 2,000 stories about sexual abuse in Catholic institutions, mostly concerning past allegations. During the same period, those newspapers ran four stories about the federal government's discovery of the much larger — and ongoing — abuse scandal in public schools.

Seems like a good reason why nobody ever heard of the problem at our Government Schools.


The media have left many with the impression that sexual abuse is a Catholic problem — as if Catholic beliefs and customs make sex abuse inevitable. Church teaching for its part is clear: Sexual abuse of minors is always wrong. A more likely culprit would be a non-religious ambivalence about the pedophilia, as seen, for instance, in the media's refusal to broaden its scope to include teachers when considering the issue.

It is almost like the media is at war with the Catholic Church. This is our Church. Who is doing this attacking, and why?


It's good that this ugly problem in the Catholic Church is being investigated, exposed, and dealt with. Now let's expand the investigation. In the face of the evidence of a widespread epidemic of abuse fed by a new morality that winks at child molestation, why is the Church the only institution under the microscope?

That is a good question. Why?

[stophorseabuse]

Considering there are about 150 million kids in Public schools at any time, and the amount of district staff is HUUGGGEEE when you count all those on payroll in some form. Compare that to maybe 20 million kids exposed to Catholic churches and a tiny ratio of Priest to children, and I would say the numbers are at minimum equal.

I am not trashing the church though. And I also don't support any child molesters. However, I have never seen anything like this in public education, and I am a third of the way to retirement in spotty schools. I see lots of problems, but not this. I knew one, who got with a 17 year old girl. He was a coach. It spread like wildfire through the school. They all denied, he was still canned. (it was clearly true, they later married).

If such a conspiracy is going down at schools, it is happening in individual schools, and is beyond messed up. I look at the churches and can't help but sense planning on how to carry out hiding this trickling down from the Vatican. I think that is why it has been run with so strongly.

The way education is trashed in this nation, I don't see any media outlets failing to run with a story of that magnitude if there was solid support of it. Just look at how they put teacher sex scandals on front page every time something comes up.

[drudy23]

Death Penalty is the only reasonable outcome after what came out today. JoePa is lucky he's dead.

Why is everyone surprised about what came out today? Of course he helped cover it up, that was blatantly obvious from the beginning. I didn't need a report to tell me that.

[Snipe]

Considering there are about 150 million kids in Public schools at any time, and the amount of district staff is HUUGGGEEE when you count all those on payroll in some form. Compare that to maybe 20 million kids exposed to Catholic churches and a tiny ratio of Priest to children, and I would say the numbers are at minimum equal.

I am not trashing the church though. And I also don't support any child molesters. However, I have never seen anything like this in public education, and I am a third of the way to retirement in spotty schools. I see lots of problems, but not this. I knew one, who got with a 17 year old girl. He was a coach. It spread like wildfire through the school. They all denied, he was still canned. (it was clearly true, they later married).

If such a conspiracy is going down at schools, it is happening in individual schools, and is beyond messed up. I look at the churches and can't help but sense planning on how to carry out hiding this trickling down from the Vatican. I think that is why it has been run with so strongly.

The way education is trashed in this nation, I don't see any media outlets failing to run with a story of that magnitude if there was solid support of it. Just look at how they put teacher sex scandals on front page every time something comes up.

If we get beyond your mastery of math and statistics, your evidence isn't convincing.

I went to Catholic schools all my life. I never saw anyone molested by a Priest. Nor have I ever met anyone who has been molested by a Priest. From that evidence, I can surmise that the whole Catholic Church scandal was completely made up out of thin air.

Kids get molested in government schools, and evidence points to the fact that it happens at a higher rate than Catholic Schools. If we are talking about relative rates of abuse, we can compare the statistics, even though the government has close to a monopoly in education and much higher enrollment.

The same things that happened with the Church happened at government schools, and the same thing happened at Penn State. People cover it up because they don't want to look bad. Read the NY Times article I cited. The attorney said that the principals just don't have time to go after molesters. Really, they work 9 months a year with 6 hour days, and the holidays are excessive, and they don't have the freaking time to document teachers that molest children.

That is beyond weak. What if the Catholic Church said, we just don't have the time. Can we give Penn State a pass if they can show us a busy schedule. Running a D-1 football program is a full time job, you don't have time for molesters!

[wkrq59]

Re: Joe Paterno. Shakespeare said it best---"The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones."
Joe was not an evil man. He just loved the school and its football program too much. Yes, he stayed too long at the fair. Yes, his judgement apparently was clouded. But he was also of a different age.
Please spare me the sanctimonious remarks that an idol has fallen or been tarnished. I doubt sincerely that Joe ever believed that Sandusky was what he was and had done what he did.The tragedy is as more than one person of far greater wisdom than I has said, a lifetime of basically good works has been forever tarnished by his refusal to believe the obvious and react appropriately. The people at the school to whom he answered were also guilty, but hey, none:mad: of this matters and pales compared to the suffering of the victims of Sandusky. Also, I doubt Sandusky ever sees a day in prison or if he does, his incarceration won't last long before prison justice takes its toll.

[danaandvictory]

I thought I was conversant with all the varieties of right-wing gibberish, but "Government schools" is a new one for me.

[bleedXblue]

Re: Joe Paterno. Shakespeare said it best---"The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones."
Joe was not an evil man. He just loved the school and its football program too much. Yes, he stayed too long at the fair. Yes, his judgement apparently was clouded. But he was also of a different age.
Please spare me the sanctimonious remarks that an idol has fallen or been tarnished. I doubt sincerely that Joe ever believed that Sandusky was what he was and had done what he did.The tragedy is as more than one person of far greater wisdom than I has said, a lifetime of basically good works has been forever tarnished by his refusal to believe the obvious and react appropriately. The people at the school to whom he answered were also guilty, but hey, none:mad: of this matters and pales compared to the suffering of the victims of Sandusky. Also, I doubt Sandusky ever sees a day in prison or if he does, his incarceration won't last long before prison justice takes its toll.

There is right and there is wrong. It's that simple. Paterno made the decision to not turn the accusations and personal accounts from his own coaching staff over to the police. He knew what he was doing and hoped that by ignoring it, it would go away. Shame on him. My opinion of the man will be that he was a coward and a con.

[GoMuskies]

Re: Joe Paterno. Shakespeare said it best---"The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones."
Joe was not an evil man. He just loved the school and its football program too much. Yes, he stayed too long at the fair. Yes, his judgement apparently was clouded. But he was also of a different age.
Please spare me the sanctimonious remarks that an idol has fallen or been tarnished. I doubt sincerely that Joe ever believed that Sandusky was what he was and had done what he did.The tragedy is as more than one person of far greater wisdom than I has said, a lifetime of basically good works has been forever tarnished by his refusal to believe the obvious and react appropriately. The people at the school to whom he answered were also guilty, but hey, none:mad: of this matters and pales compared to the suffering of the victims of Sandusky. Also, I doubt Sandusky ever sees a day in prison or if he does, his incarceration won't last long before prison justice takes its toll.

Maybe not an evil man, but clearly not a good man, either. And spare me the "of a different age" bullshit. Enabling a child molestor wasn't okay in any age.

I hope no one ever loves Xavier basketball the way Paterno loved Penn State football.

[stophorseabuse]

Snipe, the article quotes you posted provided no data. It was just saying "if you only knew"'. My response provided no data either. . I can say for sure though that I have NEVER met a principal who only worked 9 months and only 6 hours a day. They work 12 months now, often 12 hours a day, and have less than 30 days a year of vacation, that they rarely use.

I don't even know teachers that only work 6 hour days, and only 9 months a year.

[Snipe]

I thought I was conversant with all the varieties of right-wing gibberish, but "Government schools" is a new one for me.

Gibberish? What would you call them? Are they not government schools? Have I betrayed or misappropriated any facts?

I have referred to them as State Schools, Public Schools, and Government Schools. Those are all correct descriptions. The State has a monopoly on education in this country, with roughly 90% of the enrollment of American students. Is that wrong to say? Is it gibberish? Is it not the State that is educating these students nationwide? Do we not have a Federal Department of Education? Are these really not "Government Schools"? Pray tell if you have other facts. Is this gibberish?

I give you data on molestation and avoidance by teacher's unions and what you give me is "right wing gibberish". Instead of confronting the problem or proposing solutions, you attack the messenger. You are no better than the people at these institutions that want to cover it up. Your avoidance mechanisms are despicable. We are talking about real lives and children that are being molested. I guess you supported Penn State, you sure seem to cover for them. Despicable. You make me sick.

[Snipe]

Confronted with evidential data, DanaandVictory decides to attack the person who noted the problem with semantics (I said Government Schools and not Public Schools). Yeah, I am sure that will solve the problem. I guess I made it all up. It is some "right wing" plot to protect our children. Since when did the molestation of children become a partisan political issue? The answer, when it looks bad for the teacher's unions and State schools that have been tolerating this for quite some time. If I am going to be labeled as partisan, I would gladly do so in the name of defending those children.

[Snipe]

Snipe, the article quotes you posted provided no data. It was just saying "if you only knew"'. My response provided no data either. . I can say for sure though that I have NEVER met a principal who only worked 9 months and only 6 hours a day. They work 12 months now, often 12 hours a day, and have less than 30 days a year of vacation, that they rarely use.

I don't even know teachers that only work 6 hour days, and only 9 months a year.

The first link I gave was this:

Educator Sexual Misconduct:
A Synthesis of Existing Literature (http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf)

That is a report from the United States Department of Education. Evidently even as a teacher you have never heard of it. Clink the link, you may find some data.

From the author of that study:


In fact, says the studies author, Carol Shakeshaft, professor of educational administration at Hofstra University, in Hempstead, New York, the scope of the school sex problem appears to far exceed the clergy abuse scandal that has rocked the Roman Catholic Church.

Comparing the incidence of sexual misconduct in schools with the Catholic Church scandal, Shakeshift notes that a study by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops concluded that 10,667 young people were sexually mistreated by priests between 1950 and 2002.

In contrast, the extrapolates from a national survey conducted for the American Association of University Women Educational Foundation in 2000 that roughly 290,000 students experienced some sort of physical sexual abuse by a public school employee between 1991 and 2000.

The figures suggest “the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests,” said Shakshaft, according to Education Week.

Indeed, more than 4.5 million students are subject to sexual misconduct by an employee of a school sometime between kindergarden and 12th grade, says the report.

If that doesn't qualify as data for you, check the PDF for the underlying study. It is 156 pages long, that is why I linked it, so people like you could check the data. But now I find that I "provided no data". If that isn't good enough for you, I don't care to try to influence or debate you more, at least on the grounds of data. After all, if the government schools had a child abuse problem, you would have known about it, because you work for the government schools. I am sure everyone at Penn State knew, they only have 1,500 employees. I am sure it is a close knit community where everyone knows everyone's business, and that child predators will freely admit it to all their co-workers.


only 1 percent of the cases did superintendents follow up to ensure that molesting teachers did not continue teaching elsewhere.

More data that I already referenced. You apparently didn't read my posts or links.


Yet, during the first half of 2002, the 61 largest newspapers in California ran nearly 2,000 stories about sexual abuse in Catholic institutions, mostly concerning past allegations. During the same period, those newspapers ran four stories about the federal government's discovery of the much larger — and ongoing — abuse scandal in public schools.

More data that I already referenced. Looks like it wasn't a big deal though because it wasn't widely reported.

Just curious, what do you teach?

[Snipe]

Joe Paterno's argument is that he went along the chain of command. Other people were informed, and they didn't do their job. Does the buck stop at Paterno? Many people think that it does, and I tend to agree.

But why just Paterno? What about the actual witnesses? They had janitors who saw what happened. Paterno wasn't a witness? Isn't the bar higher for the actual witnesses? We don't know the name of those janitors? Why not? Why are they not on trial? Is it ok for them to report it in the chain of command and not ok for Joe Paterno to report it to the chain of command (he wasn't even an actual witness). What about the assistant coach? Don't we owe more score to the people who actually witnessed the behavior? If you tell me about something, I know, but what I know is your story. If you witness something, you know it to be the truth. If someone comes to me with his story, I can refer it to the chain of command. Then it is off me. That is Paterno's argument. What about the people who actually knew this was happening that failed?

I must admit, I haven't read the full report and could be wrong on some facts. Neither do I ever intend on reading the full report.

Joe is dead, and as such can't defend himself. He is a football coach, and not head of Penn State internal investigations. If he referred it to the powers that be, how does that make him different than anyone else? And if witnesses didn't push the issue, how can we reasonably expect the people who didn't witness the event to be the blame?

I still think Joe should have done more, but isn't he a quite dead and convenient dumping ground right now?

[GoMuskies]

If JoePa just "should have done more", it would be one thing. But he actually hindered the investigation and allowed his old coach to keep butt-raping boys because it would have harmed Penn State's image if the old butt-raping had been made public.

Those janitors didn't have the power to do that.

[stophorseabuse]

Snipe, the report is not statistically synthasized into any kind of a rate.


To say a person is 100 times more likely to be molested in the public schools to suggest a priest is safer ignores the fact that a student is subjected to way more than 100 times more school employees than priests, and spends a ridiculously greater amount of time in the public school setting. 13+ years 180+ days per year, 7+ hours a day, with thousands of employees with access in those 13 + years.

Not to mention the fact that only maybe 1 in 10 students EVER goes to so much as a mass. Very few kids are ever in a position for a priest to rape them.

I am sure shady crap happens in schools. However, I certainly feel more comfortable sending my kid to public schools than to be alone with sex deprived priests. I don't trust the intentions of organized religion in general, and I have a pretty strong suspicion those studies were conducted with an agenda to deflect from the church scandal.

I am not trying to convince anybody of anything, but nothing about those studies set right with me.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

If JoePa just "should have done more", it would be one thing. But he actually hindered the investigation and allowed his old coach to keep butt-raping boys because it would have harmed Penn State's image if the old butt-raping had been made public.

Those janitors didn't have the power to do that.

Ya Paterno 'owned' that town. If he wanted it stopped, he could have stopped it anytime he wanted. He swept up numerous Penn State football player criminal charges under the rug, helped players get eligible, etc. Obviously he had some pull over the local media, the university, and the town. Whats amazing to me are the "Joe Paterno" fans who still claim he had no idea what was going on. Really? I can understand his close family being in denial, but the amount of support being shown to Paterno is just proof on how stupid some people are

Maybe I'm in a ridiculous conspiracy mood today but part of me believes there is actually more to this story then what is being reported. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear evidence of another person(s) close to the university raping children at this point. I still can't believe they protected this asshole for 14 years after they discovered who he really was.

Give PSU the death penalty already.

[XULucho27]

If JoePa just "should have done more", it would be one thing. But he actually hindered the investigation and allowed his old coach to keep butt-raping boys because it would have harmed Penn State's image if the old butt-raping had been made public.

Those janitors didn't have the power to do that.

I tried to rep you, Go. I agree.

I think the Freeh report makes it unquestionably clear that JoePa, along with several university officials had either actual or constructive knowledge that Jerry Sandusky was involved in some way, shape, or form in the sexual molestation of young children.

These men not only failed to report any of their findings but -- if the Freeh report is to be held as accurate -- they repeatedly lied to those involved investigative efforts (e.g. Graham Spanier testifying in 2001 to not knowing of any incidents involving Sandusky despite e-mails between himself and Gary Schultz discussing both the allegations and that JoePa had been informed; JoePa testifying before the Grand Jury that he did not know of any allegations besides the 2001 incident, again even though e-mails clearly show that university officials had been in contact with him regarding the 1998 allegations that ultimately went uncharged).

This has gone far beyond a football program and misguided leadership: this is criminal activity on many levels. I for one believe this is past the point of "was it reported to the correct people." It's clear that those in power knew or at the very least had constructive knowledge of some funky shit regarding a highly prominent member of the university and they just decided to affirmatively sweep it under the rug.

I agree, Jimmy, that a harsh punishment should be doled out. But I also think this is WAY past the point of just punishing the football program. Give them the death penalty if you want, but I'd rather see some punitive measures taken against any and all who purposefully aided and enabled this monster.

[blobfan]

Sometimes it really is that simple. Those who which to deny the nature of these crimes are not helping finding the solution in my opinion. The first thing we have to do is be honest about what is happening.


From WebMD (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/explaining-pedophilia)




From Psychiatry Online (http://focus.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=53036)



Looks like Psychiatry Online is guilty of a hatecrime! If you look at their hatefacts, it appears that homosexual pedophilia is quite a problem. Even Chicago X's own example of the Catholic Church speaks to that. Stop the H8!


Pedophiles are usually attracted to a particular age range and/or sex of child. Research categorizes male pedophiles by whether they are attracted to only male children (homosexual pedophilia), female children (heterosexual pedophilia), or children from both sexes (bisexual pedophilia) (3, 6, 10, 29). The percentage of homosexual pedophiles ranges from 9% to 40%, which is approximately 4 to 20 times higher than the rate of adult men attracted to other adult men (using a prevalence rate of adult homosexuality of 2%—4%)


Snipe, your logic is faulty all over the place. If the a greater % pedophiles are homosexuals than non-pedophiles, how does it follow that a greater % of homosexuals are pedophiles? Maybe it's my fuzzy Friday brain but I can't figure out how that works out to be statistically significant.

As for the priest molestors v public school teacher molesters, greater numbers don't necessarily equate to greater percentages. If you have an article supporting that, please share. Up to now what you've posted isn't hard evidence.

Are you running for Congress?

[stophorseabuse]

I do have a problem with organized religion. No more with catholic than any other. Bt I won't deny that. I find them Manipulative and fear mongering.

My math logic here is NOT suspect. My premise could be wrong though. I could be wrong about the coverup. I acknowledge that, it Is my suspicion. It is my job to protect my kids, and I have to use personal judgement.

--Less than 50k priests, millions and millions employed or volunteer in Public schools.
-20-30 times more 'potential' offenders(on very low end)


A priest may have 100 hours a year with a child. Schools have over a thousand.
-10 times more time (again, consevative)

schools have access to, on a super conservative level, 4 times the number of potential victims.

I need a math guy to come up with a permutations for sure, but I'm thinking correctly that even if there is 100 times more incidents of inappropriate contact, the rate of incidence would still be significantly higher with priests.

I come up with 20x10x4.

800 times the opportunity in public schools, but only 100 times more offenses. My math tells me church is 8 times as dangerous.

My math certainly has flaws, but it is not so flawed that I am wrong about where the higher rate of offense aligns.

I would also be very interested to see numbers on pre puberty abuse.

[stophorseabuse]

Oh, and I don't want to come off as a public school patsy. They are waaaay flawed. They don't produce, and the whole system is designed to ensure failure. We are failing miserably to provide realistic education opportunities. We damage the top, and destroy the bottom. The middle just gets ignored altogether. Systematic failure by politicians, as usual.

[Snipe]

Snipe, your logic is faulty all over the place. If the a greater % pedophiles are homosexuals than non-pedophiles, how does it follow that a greater % of homosexuals are pedophiles? Maybe it's my fuzzy Friday brain but I can't figure out how that works out to be statistically significant.



I am not sure I can answer your question, perhaps my logic is faulty. I am not even sure what you are asking.

You asked that if a greater percentage of pedophiles are homosexuals, how it follows that a greater percentage of homosexuals are pedophiles.

To me it sounds like your question is answering itself.

If a greater percentage of pedophiles are homosexuals, it follows that a greater percentage of homosexuals are pedophiles because a greater percentage of pedophiles are homosexuals. Or something like that. I get confused by the wordplay and semantics, so perhaps my logic is off. That may be the case.


Pedophiles are usually attracted to a particular age range and/or sex of child. Research categorizes male pedophiles by whether they are attracted to only male children (homosexual pedophilia), female children (heterosexual pedophilia), or children from both sexes (bisexual pedophilia) (3, 6, 10, 29). The percentage of homosexual pedophiles ranges from 9% to 40%, which is approximately 4 to 20 times higher than the rate of adult men attracted to other adult men (using a prevalence rate of adult homosexuality of 2%—4%)

It would appear that homosexual abuse of young men occurs at a statistically disproportionate rate compared to the number of homosexuals in the population.

With the 2-4% prevalence rate of homosexuality in the general population, that makes 96% to 98% of men non-homosexuals. That means for the wide majority of victims, the sexuality of the assailants is in-congruent with their own sexuality. I think that makes it harder for victims to bear the brunt of the molestation. I think males molested by women fair much better then the males who are molested by men. Not hard to figure out why unless you want to suspend disbelief.

People object to bringing in the homosexual aspects of the Sandusky crimes. They object to the word homosexual being used in connection with these crimes. These were sexual crimes, and they were specifically homosexual crimes. I don't think that can be debated. He was male, and all of his victims including his adopted children, were male. If we can't talk about the homosexual aspects and nature of these despicable crimes now, when can we? If we can't talk about it now, the answer is: We simply aren't allowed to talk about it at all. It is politically incorrect to do so. This is the most notorious homosexual molester in recent memory, and possibly in all of United States history.

Sandusky worked at a State institution and was an employee of the State. Most homosexual crimes occur at State institutions. If we can't have a conversation about the sexuality of this without it being a politically incorrect hate crime, then you can never have that conversation.

Some boys have sex with men. Some boys have sex with the babysitter. Only one of those groups ever brags about it. These are not equal crimes in my opinion. No doubt the babysitter is wrong, but if I had to choose for my kids, it would be babysitter all the way. I knew one male in my life who claimed to have sex with a female teacher, and he was proud of it. Most people just dismissed it as bragging. You would not find that with a young boy who had homosexual sex with a male teacher. Those Sandusky recruits were not bragging to their friends. Some crimes are worse than others, and if it is against your vital nature, it is especially abhorrent. That of course is my opinion.

[Snipe]

A few years ago, Jay P Greene looked at the statistics for Priests vs Male Teachers in Government Schools.

Priest and Teacher Sex Scandals in Perspective (http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/19/priest-and-teacher-sex-scandals-in-perspective/)


Indeed, these acts are deplorable and intolerable. But it might also be useful to put in perspective how widespread sexual misconduct by priests is by comparing the problems in the Church with how widespread sexual misconduct is by teachers in schools. I know this is an unpleasant topic, but a recent analysis by the Associated Press suggests that sexual misconduct among male teachers is at least as common as among male priests.

The AP collected information on the number of teachers who lost their licenses between 2001 and 2005 due to sexual misconduct. They find that 2,570 licenses were revoked among a teaching workforce of almost 3 million. They compare this to the priest abuse scandals where they claim that 4,400 priests were accused of misconduct between 1950 and 2002 out of a priest workforce of 110,000.

At first glance it would seem that teacher scandals are much less common than priest scandals, but the priest numbers are of allegations, not license revocations, and are over a 53 year period instead of a 5 year period. If we adjust for the time difference, there were .76 priest scandal allegations per year per 1,000 priests. For teachers there were .17 teacher license revocations per year per 1,000 teachers. But if we further adjust for the fact that more than 9 in 10 teacher perpetrators are male, while all priest perpetrators are male, there were .77 male teachers who lose their license each year for sexual misconduct for every 1,000 male teachers employed.

The rate of sexual misconduct among male teachers is about as high as among male priests. And given that we are comparing license revocations for teachers to allegations for priests, the rate of misconduct among male teachers may be considerably higher than among male priests. As the AP story notes, relatively few instances of teacher sexual misconduct result in a license revocation.

The investigative reporter, Scott Reeder, has also been doing work in this area and is currently documenting the rate at which teachers who are accused of misconduct actually lose their licenses. You can find his reporting here:

http://www.thehiddencostsoftenure.com/

The rate that male teachers lose their licenses to teach for sexual misconduct is statistically identical to the rate that Priests are accused of sexual misconduct. And as we have seen, many teachers move on with their teaching license to abuse again, and most abuse does not result in a revocation of a teacher license.

Big fan of JP Greene, and I buy this stuff hook line and sinker. Maybe I am a biased Catholic, but I ain't that much of a Catholic. I preach Eugenics and have no problem with abortion, other than we should all admit that we are killing babies. The disingeniousness of liberals disgusts me, of course they are babies. Yes it is a woman's body, but yes again it is a baby. I think we should kill way more babies, and why stop when they are in the womb? I see plenty of 15 year old babies in the hood that society could benefit from with having a post-natal abortion.

[Frambo]

Oh, and I don't want to come off as a public school patsy. They are waaaay flawed. They don't produce, and the whole system is designed to ensure failure. We are failing miserably to provide realistic education opportunities. We damage the top, and destroy the bottom. The middle just gets ignored altogether. Systematic failure by politicians, as usual.

Wow..it saddens me that my 30+ year public school teaching career was such a waste of time!!!!!!

[stophorseabuse]

Wow..it saddens me that my 30+ year public school teaching career was such a waste of time!!!!!!

Woooaaah Frambo, I am in year 10. I would never say it is a waste of time. The profession has a dump taken on it anytime the power class has a chance. What I am expressing is that the legal System ties our hands and makes us waste incredible amounts of time and resources. It has NOTHING to do with teachers, who are just pushed around, threatened, demeaned, and intimidated by society.

I have a great respect for teachers, and the fact most say they would do it again despite the circumstances only increases that respect.

[Frambo]

Woooaaah Frambo, I am in year 10. I would never say it is a waste of time. The profession has a dump taken on it anytime the power class has a chance. What I am expressing is that the legal System ties our hands and makes us waste incredible amounts of time and resources. It has NOTHING to do with teachers, who are just pushed around, threatened, demeaned, and intimidated by society.

I have a great respect for teachers, and the fact most say they would do it again despite the circumstances only increases that respect.

Good to know....but while I can agree with some of your sentiment, I'm tired of people laying out blanket statements that the schools are a failure. My 3 got a great education in our local public school and were just as prepared for college as I was coming out of St. X (maybe better prepared than me...but I, and beer, should take some of the blame for that).

[stophorseabuse]

Frambo, are you retired? And if so, when?

Since roughly 2000, the job has just become insane, and very little of teaching is instruction anymore. I refuse to identify myself as a teacher. I call it educater, because 90% is statistical data and manipulation to meet standards, plus being on committees that have chores to do to gain ayp points the state has arbitrarily made available for parent nights, and anti bullying campaigns.

Teaching is awesome, and I love it. However, the job is now about making administration appear good, and not for the teaching students skills to be successful.

[stophorseabuse]

And with common core coming, well, I just want to enjoy the rest of summer.

[Frambo]

Frambo, are you retired? And if so, when?

Since roughly 2000, the job has just become insane, and very little of teaching is instruction anymore. I refuse to identify myself as a teacher. I call it educater, because 90% is statistical data and manipulation to meet standards, plus being on committees that have chores to do to gain ayp points the state has arbitrarily made available for parent nights, and anti bullying campaigns.

Teaching is awesome, and I love it. However, the job is now about making administration appear good, and not for the teaching students skills to be successful.

I retired in 2007. And I know about all of the bull crap that teachers have to deal with. I was a team leader for the last 1/2 of my career and spent time on our negotiations team. I agree that it is getting tougher every year. Our daughter teaches 3rd grade, our middle son is a CPA/MBA and our youngest was following his brother's path. He returned from his first semester saying that business wasn't for him...and that he wanted to teach and coach like his Dad. I tried to explain to him how the profession was changing, but he went ahead graduating cum laude in math.

The political aspect aside...I do believe that the vast majority of public schools do a great job because of teachers like you and my 2 kids.

[stophorseabuse]

I agree overall the job gets done, it could just be done sooooooo much better if they would let teachers teach. The problem is totally policy, 90% of teachers are adequate or better. The process gets sabotaged with craziness.

[muskienick]

I agree overall the job gets done, it could just be done sooooooo much better if they would let teachers teach. The problem is totally policy, 90% of teachers are adequate or better. The process gets sabotaged with craziness.

I taught from 1964 until 1995 and there was little or no difference in terms of classroom management, parental expectations, or administrative demands from the first to my last year. I continually hear current teachers (whenever "current" might have been) say that "things are so much worse now than they were 10 (or 20 or 30) years ago." 20-25 years into my career, some young teachers would say to me after I told them how long I had taught that there is no way they could stay in education that long.

I know that some current teachers will say that I am "out of the loop" and don't have a clue how tough it is to teach now. To them I would say that 99% of teaching is closing the damn door behind you and your class and just getting the damn job done on your own. I've dealt with plenty of parents who have tried to tell me that it's my job to teach their kids and get them to do their homework and not to bother them by asking for their support in urging their children to study and complete their home assignments. I have also worked under administrators who refused to deal with problem children sent to them by frustrated young teachers who just wanted to teach the kids who really wanted to learn. (Those poor young pups usually opted out of the profession and wound up being big successes in the business world.)

Kids change very little from generation to generation. Although the types of problems teachers face may differ from decade to decade, the ammunition that teachers have at their beck and call to deal with those problems change just as significantly in effectiveness.

There is one problem that will never be solved --- people who have become parents but who never had the privilege or the challenge to deal with classrooms full of students for years at a time on a daily basis (and all the associated problems that go with the job) think they know what the job entails because they went to school for 13 years or more themselves as students.

NONE OF THEM DO ANY MORE THAN I'D KNOW HOW TO OPERATE ON MY BRAIN EVEN THOUGH I'VE INTIMATELY INTERACTED WITH MY OWN FOR 68+ YEARS!

[stophorseabuse]

If I close the door behind me and got great numbers, I would be fired fired fired.

The job is very very different from 10 years ago until today. I have hours of assignments each day, and them being turned in mean more to my performance than my students turning them in.

I have a much bigger problem with admins and legislators than parents. You aren't allowed to fail students anymore, so essentially the parents leave you alone. They never have an f to complain about.

[XU 87]

If I close the door behind me and got great numbers, I would be fired fired fired.

The job is very very different from 10 years ago until today. I have hours of assignments each day, and them being turned in mean more to my performance than my students turning them in.



Come back to Cincinnati and teach at my kids' Catholic school. You won't have all these problems.

[stophorseabuse]

Lol, if I walk into a religious school the building may just implode.

[muskienick]

If I close the door behind me and got great numbers, I would be fired fired fired.

The job is very very different from 10 years ago until today. I have hours of assignments each day, and them being turned in mean more to my performance than my students turning them in.

I have a much bigger problem with admins and legislators than parents. You aren't allowed to fail students anymore, so essentially the parents leave you alone. They never have an f to complain about.

Our administrators solved the failure problem years ago. Maybe yours are behind the times. Ours simply lowered the standards so much that even dunces got bumper stickers saying such drivel as "My student excelled at Joe Doakes Middle School"!

Also, I have no idea what you meant by this sentence --- "If I close the door behind me and got great numbers, I would be fired fired fired." Of course I understand what 'fired' means but the rest is a mystery. Are you not allowed to close your door? What do you mean by 'great numbers'? What assignments do teachers in your school now have that take hours each day that teachers from medieval times (seemingly, when I taught) didn't have?

I minimized my problems with the administration by handling my own problems rather than sending them to the office. Others didn't and were not held in high regard by the powers that be (which was simply unfair in many cases).

Also, what legislative problems do you have that didn't exist when I was teaching? We had standardized tests to "teach to;" mandatory graded courses of study that had to be reflected specifically in our daily lesson plans; and the rather routine inclusion of non-English-speaking students, severe behaviorly disturbed students, and those with severe physical handicaps (such as MS, MD, etc.), most of the time without accompanying trained aides! There were many other duties that were assigned to us over which we had little or no refusal rights (lunchtime duty, bus-loading assignments, assisting other teachers with classroom control during our planning periods, etc.). It was also rather commonplace for us to be assigned over 40 students to a classroom. In my case, the District adopted a science program designed for no more than 28 students per class and purchased supplies and classroom sets of texts and workbooks for that number of students. The teachers were told to "make it work."

Like I said, I went through a 31-year teaching career and, other than the use of the experience I gained over the years, I saw no appreciable difference in the stress levels I felt or those expressed by my fellow teachers during all that time.

It is human nature to believe that former times were simpler and easier and that those in the present have far greater challenges than people in the past.

It's simply not an accurate assessment of the reality of those comparative time frames.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

3 more men claim abuse at the hands of Sandusky

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/16/us-crime-sandusky-idUSBRE86F0P020120716

[UCGRAD4X]

Our administrators solved the failure problem years ago. Maybe yours are behind the times. Ours simply lowered the standards so much that even dunces got bumper stickers saying such drivel as "My student excelled at Joe Doakes Middle School"!

Also, I have no idea what you meant by this sentence --- "If I close the door behind me and got great numbers, I would be fired fired fired." Of course I understand what 'fired' means but the rest is a mystery. Are you not allowed to close your door? What do you mean by 'great numbers'? What assignments do teachers in your school now have that take hours each day that teachers from medieval times (seemingly, when I taught) didn't have?

I minimized my problems with the administration by handling my own problems rather than sending them to the office. Others didn't and were not held in high regard by the powers that be (which was simply unfair in many cases).

Also, what legislative problems do you have that didn't exist when I was teaching? We had standardized tests to "teach to;" mandatory graded courses of study that had to be reflected specifically in our daily lesson plans; and the rather routine inclusion of non-English-speaking students, severe behaviorly disturbed students, and those with severe physical handicaps (such as MS, MD, etc.), most of the time without accompanying trained aides! There were many other duties that were assigned to us over which we had little or no refusal rights (lunchtime duty, bus-loading assignments, assisting other teachers with classroom control during our planning periods, etc.). It was also rather commonplace for us to be assigned over 40 students to a classroom. In my case, the District adopted a science program designed for no more than 28 students per class and purchased supplies and classroom sets of texts and workbooks for that number of students. The teachers were told to "make it work."

Like I said, I went through a 31-year teaching career and, other than the use of the experience I gained over the years, I saw no appreciable difference in the stress levels I felt or those expressed by my fellow teachers during all that time.

It is human nature to believe that former times were simpler and easier and that those in the present have far greater challenges than people in the past.

It's simply not an accurate assessment of the reality of those comparative time frames.

There are a couple of issues that are making it more difficult for teachers to teach:
You are correct that standardized testing has been around for a long time. The difference that has been increasingly ratcheted up has been the consequences of the results of those tests and the subsequent focus of everything a teacher, administration, departments of education and all of the professional development and focus of everything from meeting to memos and messages plastered all throughout the hallways and classrooms.

The very existence of a school depends on the test scores. A school that does not meet standards is dissolved, from the principal to the janitor and reconfigured from scratch. Granted - those professionals are reshuffled to other schools like the proverbial rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and some may be rehired to the same school or position after going through the rehiring process. But the incredible angst and consternation in schools is palpable.

I have supervised student teachers for many years and been in many different schools. It has been my experience that the older teachers seem to have the most difficult time with this. It affected everything and frustrated the veteran teachers especially. There were students they would write off saying, in essence, they are not going to make the grade no matter what I do so I might as well spend my time and attention on the ones I can save.

The tone and tenor of the teacher and the classroom as a whole before and after the test (near the end of our spring semester) was dramatic.

Teaching is becoming more scripted and formulaic. On the one hand, younger teachers may benefit from the guidelines. However, saying you should teach every student the same way at the same time is antithetical to recognizing individual learning styles and general differences in students cognitive abilities, personal backgrounds, experiences and interests (which teachers are expected to recognize and incorporate into instruction practices such as 'Response to Intervention - RTI). Somewhat of a contradiction. What it boils down to, in most cases: not allowing teachers to make decisions about how, when and what to teach - or - not allowing teachers to teach, particularly veteran, successful teachers who know better.

I am glad, as a veteran teacher, you had enough experience and confidence in what you do, a sense of procedure, making expectations clear and the management tools to anticipate and maintain those procedures, and probably respect from enough of your students that you were able to take care of most if not all of the issues in your classroom. I think you are clearly the exception (which you probably already knew).

This gets to another major issues in many of our most challenging schools: there is a lot of pressure on many schools, particularly among certain populations, to cut down on the number of in school suspensions and general discipline documentations. For a teacher like you this may not be an issue, but imagine most classrooms where students have a shocking lack of respect for the learning process in general, little sense of right and wrong and some ultimate sense of personal responsibility (I could begin a whole separate discussion about the societal issues contributing to this), and the teacher specifically where a teacher goes through the normal procedure of maintaining discipline in the classroom. Talking to the parent is generally useless - whereas for many of us (in the 'olden days') would have been the death knell. There has to be some ultimate end, "If you don't do (whatever the issue is in the classroom) you will need to (ISS, at home suspension, expulsion, or - in some unfortunate cases - incarceration). Instead, a student is sent right back to the classroom because a principal, school or district is under pressure to not have so many students of this demographic with discipline issues.

Sure it is great for teachers to be able to take care of these issues in the classroom, but for so many teachers who are increasing told what and how to teach, when more teachers, even veteran teachers, are seeing their professionalism being subverted by high stakes test scores, using this alternative has disastrous consequences. The 'disciplined' student is, instead, sent back to the classroom, emboldened by the new found notion that there is really nothing the teacher can do to them. The administration won't help and home won't help. The inmates are now running the asylum.

I've even been in one school where said students go to the principal are given a hug and a bag of potato chips, told they are simply misunderstood, and sent back to the classroom.

There are serious problems and issues in education that are headed in the wrong direction. Unfortunately, I don't see any improvement on the horizon. It seems as if the whole system is going to need to implode before serious changes are implemented. I'm not saying I have the solution, but some of the issues are definitely systemic of society as a whole - such as personal responsibility, the notion of being given things and expecting nothing in return, and no core sense of what is right and wrong.

Take that for what it is worth.

(Gee: get a guy over 1000 posts and he tends to go off!)

[DC Muskie]

I think it's sad that Joe Paterno's family is putting together their own investigation.

This whole thing will not end well. How in the world did Penn State ever let this happen?

[Masterofreality]

This whole thing will not end well. How in the world did Penn State ever let this happen?

The same way that SucKS allowed it to happen with BeelzeBob for so many years....bowing down to the Golden Idol of Sports without an ethical compass or integrity.

[DC Muskie]

I think the biggest thing in the entire report is...

No one has figured out who that victim was from the 2001 shower rape. No one bothered to look for him? try and figure out who he was?

The whole thing just gives me the creeps. Sports can't be that important.

[DC Muskie]

I'm glad we don't have any stupid "...Ville" for our students who camp out for tickets.

Penn state people are now yelling at college kids for changing the name of their made up unoriginal "Paternoville."

Good Lord.

[paulxu]

I'm glad we don't have any stupid "...Ville" for our students who camp out for tickets. .

Macktown.

[DC Muskie]

Macktown.

Seriously?

[DC Muskie]

If you ever needed an example of how crazy white people can be, look at Penn State fans arguing over what to call a group of tents being set up outside a football stadium.

[Juice]

If you ever needed an example of how crazy white people can be, look at Penn State fans arguing over what to call a group of tents being set up outside a football stadium.


I hope to god tim tebow rapes a kid so i can watch all their heads twirl when they're forced to talk bad about them - A student's reply to the name changing of Paternoville

http://deadspin.com/5926561/i-hope-tim-tebow-rapes-a-kid-and-other-completely-sane-penn-state-fan-reactions-to-paternovilles-renaming

[GoMuskies]

That seems like a perfectly rational response. Who doesn't want Tebow to rape a kid, really?

[paulxu]

Seriously?

What do I know. I never had a problem getting a ticket back in the day.
Seemed as good as any.

[GoMuskies]

I'm glad we don't have any stupid "...Ville" for our students who camp out for tickets.

Penn state people are now yelling at college kids for changing the name of their made up unoriginal "Paternoville."

Good Lord.

I'm with Paul. In addition to Mackville, you've also apparently forgotten:

Staak's Stakeout
Pete's Retreat
Prosser Pointe
Matta World Peace City (ahead of its time)
Miller's Crossing

[jhelmes37]

There are a couple of issues that are making it more difficult for teachers to teach:
You are correct that standardized testing has been around for a long time. The difference that has been increasingly ratcheted up has been the consequences of the results of those tests and the subsequent focus of everything a teacher, administration, departments of education and all of the professional development and focus of everything from meeting to memos and messages plastered all throughout the hallways and classrooms.

The very existence of a school depends on the test scores. A school that does not meet standards is dissolved, from the principal to the janitor and reconfigured from scratch. Granted - those professionals are reshuffled to other schools like the proverbial rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and some may be rehired to the same school or position after going through the rehiring process. But the incredible angst and consternation in schools is palpable.

I have supervised student teachers for many years and been in many different schools. It has been my experience that the older teachers seem to have the most difficult time with this. It affected everything and frustrated the veteran teachers especially. There were students they would write off saying, in essence, they are not going to make the grade no matter what I do so I might as well spend my time and attention on the ones I can save.

The tone and tenor of the teacher and the classroom as a whole before and after the test (near the end of our spring semester) was dramatic.

Teaching is becoming more scripted and formulaic. On the one hand, younger teachers may benefit from the guidelines. However, saying you should teach every student the same way at the same time is antithetical to recognizing individual learning styles and general differences in students cognitive abilities, personal backgrounds, experiences and interests (which teachers are expected to recognize and incorporate into instruction practices such as 'Response to Intervention - RTI). Somewhat of a contradiction. What it boils down to, in most cases: not allowing teachers to make decisions about how, when and what to teach - or - not allowing teachers to teach, particularly veteran, successful teachers who know better.

I am glad, as a veteran teacher, you had enough experience and confidence in what you do, a sense of procedure, making expectations clear and the management tools to anticipate and maintain those procedures, and probably respect from enough of your students that you were able to take care of most if not all of the issues in your classroom. I think you are clearly the exception (which you probably already knew).

This gets to another major issues in many of our most challenging schools: there is a lot of pressure on many schools, particularly among certain populations, to cut down on the number of in school suspensions and general discipline documentations. For a teacher like you this may not be an issue, but imagine most classrooms where students have a shocking lack of respect for the learning process in general, little sense of right and wrong and some ultimate sense of personal responsibility (I could begin a whole separate discussion about the societal issues contributing to this), and the teacher specifically where a teacher goes through the normal procedure of maintaining discipline in the classroom. Talking to the parent is generally useless - whereas for many of us (in the 'olden days') would have been the death knell. There has to be some ultimate end, "If you don't do (whatever the issue is in the classroom) you will need to (ISS, at home suspension, expulsion, or - in some unfortunate cases - incarceration). Instead, a student is sent right back to the classroom because a principal, school or district is under pressure to not have so many students of this demographic with discipline issues.

Sure it is great for teachers to be able to take care of these issues in the classroom, but for so many teachers who are increasing told what and how to teach, when more teachers, even veteran teachers, are seeing their professionalism being subverted by high stakes test scores, using this alternative has disastrous consequences. The 'disciplined' student is, instead, sent back to the classroom, emboldened by the new found notion that there is really nothing the teacher can do to them. The administration won't help and home won't help. The inmates are now running the asylum.

I've even been in one school where said students go to the principal are given a hug and a bag of potato chips, told they are simply misunderstood, and sent back to the classroom.

There are serious problems and issues in education that are headed in the wrong direction. Unfortunately, I don't see any improvement on the horizon. It seems as if the whole system is going to need to implode before serious changes are implemented. I'm not saying I have the solution, but some of the issues are definitely systemic of society as a whole - such as personal responsibility, the notion of being given things and expecting nothing in return, and no core sense of what is right and wrong.

Take that for what it is worth.

(Gee: get a guy over 1000 posts and he tends to go off!)

Admins don't understand the MORE strict a school is, the LESS trouble the kids will get in.

Public schools have issues. I'm about to start year 9 of teaching grade 8. The only thing I do about it is teach the fucking shit out of the curriculum and bust my nut for 8 hours per day trying to teach those little assholes how to perform Algebra.

Then I go home and try not to worry about it. It's all you can do. Or else you'll go crazy, Horse!

And they're not all assholes. That was my dry attempt at humor.

[muskienick]

Admins don't understand the MORE strict a school is, the LESS trouble the kids will get in.

Public schools have issues. I'm about to start year 9 of teaching grade 8. The only thing I do about it is teach the fucking shit out of the curriculum and bust my nut for 8 hours per day trying to teach those little assholes how to perform Algebra.

Then I go home and try not to worry about it. It's all you can do. Or else you'll go crazy, Horse!

And they're not all assholes. That was my dry attempt at humor.

It doesn't sound too different from my 31 years as a classroom teacher. It didn't hurt that I coached various sports at the schools where I taught throughout my career --- obvious additional leverage with current and potentially future players as well as some small amount of automatic (i.e. unearned) respect from the students who attended games as fans, cheerleaders, etc.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Didn't know which thread to put this in


Brett McMurphy ‏@McMurphyCBS 7h

Delany seeking authority to fire coaches; B1G could consider removing Penn State from league, The Chronicle reports http://bit.ly/P6cttK

[DC Muskie]

I like how Dennis Dodd thinks Saban is a genius (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19616883/saban-stepping-up-a-new-coaching-icon-when-we-need-one-the-most).

Basically Dodd's argument is that Saban says, "Don't death penalty Penn State." Dodd supports this thinking because, " Businesses that count on game days would go bankrupt."

Can't have that. Can't have some hoagie shop in College Station go belly up because for maybe every Saturday for three months Penn State fans gobble them up.

I'm pretty tired of reading about the harm done to the current players and coaches who had nothing to do with this tragedy. If Penn State doesn't play football for just one year, these people's lives will be just fine. Please media stop acting like not playing a football game is the worse thing to ever happen to kid or a coach.

I'm inclined to bring the hammer down, at least a year. I was against them playing a game in the immediate aftermath of Paterno's firing and the riots that ensued.

At what point do we as society put sports in proper context? Kids riot early in the week, game is still played at the end. Got businesses to worry about.

Report comes out showing that administrators pushed this predator under the rug, but Lord forbid we consider cancelling a game.

And now we have Nick Saban being propped up just like we did to Joe Paterno.

Incredible. It's like we can't even realize what we are becoming...

Even Crazier White People.

[Juice]

I like how Dennis Dodd thinks Saban is a genius (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19616883/saban-stepping-up-a-new-coaching-icon-when-we-need-one-the-most).

Basically Dodd's argument is that Saban says, "Don't death penalty Penn State." Dodd supports this thinking because, " Businesses that count on game days would go bankrupt."

Can't have that. Can't have some hoagie shop in College Station go belly up because for maybe every Saturday for three months Penn State fans gobble them up.

I'm pretty tired of reading about the harm done to the current players and coaches who had nothing to do with this tragedy. If Penn State doesn't play football for just one year, these people's lives will be just fine. Please media stop acting like not playing a football game is the worse thing to ever happen to kid or a coach.

I'm inclined to bring the hammer down, at least a year. I was against them playing a game in the immediate aftermath of Paterno's firing and the riots that ensued.

At what point do we as society put sports in proper context? Kids riot early in the week, game is still played at the end. Got businesses to worry about.

Report comes out showing that administrators pushed this predator under the rug, but Lord forbid we consider cancelling a game.

And now we have Nick Saban being propped up just like we did to Joe Paterno.

Incredible. It's like we can't even realize what we are becoming...

Even Crazier White People.

The actions/inactions of those in power at Penn State were done to preserve the football program. So the necessary punishment might need to be to get rid of it for a short period of time.

[DC Muskie]

The actions/inactions of those in power at Penn State were done to preserve the football program. So the necessary punishment might need to be to get rid of it for a short period of time.

Exactly. Way to say it in much simpler terms!

[xudash]

Didn't know which thread to put this in


Brett McMurphy ‏@McMurphyCBS 7h

Delany seeking authority to fire coaches; B1G could consider removing Penn State from league, The Chronicle reports http://bit.ly/P6cttK

If you want to punish Penn State, remove them from the B1G.

If that happens, we can then move this over to the realignment thread, where the BE will comically think it has a shot at them after all, only to find them joining the ACC, taking UConn or Rutgers along with them.

Seriously, I agree that they shouldn't play for at least one year. I presume the death penalty, if enacted upon them, would last for at least 2 years.

[XULucho27]

Board of Trustees votes. JoePa statue to be removed. (http://deadspin.com/5927730/reports-penn-state-plans-to-take-down-the-paterno-statue-this-weekend?comment=51144040)

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Board of Trustees votes. JoePa statue to be removed. (http://deadspin.com/5927730/reports-penn-state-plans-to-take-down-the-paterno-statue-this-weekend?comment=51144040)

I heard they are moving it into the school library as a reminder to stay quiet
-(I can't take credit for that one that's been floating around the internet for days)

[GoMuskies]

Penn State's fans are seriously in a state of denial. They think they are victims at this point.

[XULucho27]

I heard they are moving it into the school library as a reminder to stay quiet
-(I can't take credit for that one that's been floating around the internet for days)

I heard they're just going to throw a tarp over it and cover it up for the next 15 years.
-(same)

[DC Muskie]

Penn State's fans are seriously in a state of denial. They think they are victims at this point.

I am amazed at the reaction. A friend of mine who is a big PSU fan basically uses his Facebook page now to defend the administration.

A reminder to everyone...

Never erect statues of the living.

[danaandvictory]

I heard they're just going to throw a tarp over it and cover it up for the next 15 years.
-(same)

Or rotate it 180 degrees so it's always looking the other way. (Groan.)

Going to be a hilarious and pathetic privileged white kid riot in State College this weekend, I bet some of the students are driving in from summer break to participate.

[joebba]

I am amazed at the reaction. A friend of mine who is a big PSU fan basically uses his Facebook page now to defend the administration.

A reminder to everyone...

Never erect statues of the living.

Or name steets after the living.

[golfitup]

I am amazed at the reaction. A friend of mine who is a big PSU fan basically uses his Facebook page now to defend the administration.

A reminder to everyone...

Never erect statues of the living.

This was also the second best year ever in the history of the school for donations. Over 200 million i think. Let that sink in.

[wkrq59]

D'Artagnan was born in Lupiac. His father, Bertrand de Batz (de Baatz), was the son of a newly ennobled merchant, Arnaud de Batz, who purchased the castle of Castelmore. Charles de Batz went to Paris in the 1630s, using the name of his mother, daughter of an illustrious family, Françoise de Montesquiou d'Artagnan. D'Artagnan found a way to enter into the Musketeers in 1632, perhaps thanks to the influence of his family's friend, Monsieur de Tréville (Jean-Armand du Peyrer, Comte de Troisville).[1] While in the Musketeers, d'Artagnan sought the protection of the influential Cardinal Mazarin, France's principal minister since 1643. In 1646, the Musketeers company was dissolved, but d'Artagnan continued to serve his protector Mazarin.


Friends. I have no particular connection to Joe Paterno nor Penn State University, but I think this flap over a damned statue is pure bull kaka. The man is dead. For many years he served Penn State and served it well. His donations and loyalty to the school are well chronicled. However, he made some colossal mistakes in the last 10 or so years of his life. The blame has been placed and can never be eradicated. Isn't that enough?
Now let's suppose that one of the Musketeers in D'Artagnan's command was a pedophile, a rapist, gave Louis a blow job, diddled the teenage daughter of a Musketeer or the daughter of a peasant? And after all these centuries, it comes to light.
What the hell do we do about that statue at the corner of Dana Ave. and Victory Parkway????? Does it stay? Do we turn it around? Do we drape it with purple? Do we put a scarlet A on its chest? What the hell do we do? D'Artagnan is dead and so is Joe Paterno. How much more vindictiveness do we need????:eek::confused::mad:

[GoMuskies]

Good Lord, q, you'd fit in well with that fanbase.

He was paid well for his "service". He did the school a pretty serious disservice there at the end that might get his beloved program the death penalty.

He was, in fact, very loyal to the school. Well, at least the football program. And that's part of the problem. Loyalty isn't always a good thing.

Blame has been placed and cannot be eradicated, you're right. Buy why on earth would you allow a statue of a man who enabled the worst scandal in college sports history to go on right under his nose?!?

I D'Art turns out to be pedo, why would we do anything BUT tear down the statue?

Statues are supposed to be reserved for great men. Paterno doesn't fit the bill.

[wkrq59]

Go Muskies, Christ even forgave St Dismiss on the cross. Can't we? I can't believe the scales of justice haven't been balanced. The man is dead. He was not an evil man. Who among us after age 60 or 70 or whenever hasn't made some mistakes in judgement? "Well, he got paid well for what he did and now he's fair game forever." Lord I hope when it's my time before the throne of the Lord, you're not sitting on some celestial advisory panel. If you are I'm certainly fxxked and I'm not alone. :eek:;):mad:

[GoMuskies]

If you ever looked the way while your subordinates diddled little boys, I hope you're right about your celestial destiny.

[LadyMuskie]

D'Artagnan was born in Lupiac. His father, Bertrand de Batz (de Baatz), was the son of a newly ennobled merchant, Arnaud de Batz, who purchased the castle of Castelmore. Charles de Batz went to Paris in the 1630s, using the name of his mother, daughter of an illustrious family, Françoise de Montesquiou d'Artagnan. D'Artagnan found a way to enter into the Musketeers in 1632, perhaps thanks to the influence of his family's friend, Monsieur de Tréville (Jean-Armand du Peyrer, Comte de Troisville).[1] While in the Musketeers, d'Artagnan sought the protection of the influential Cardinal Mazarin, France's principal minister since 1643. In 1646, the Musketeers company was dissolved, but d'Artagnan continued to serve his protector Mazarin.


Friends. I have no particular connection to Joe Paterno nor Penn State University, but I think this flap over a damned statue is pure bull kaka. The man is dead. For many years he served Penn State and served it well. His donations and loyalty to the school are well chronicled. However, he made some colossal mistakes in the last 10 or so years of his life. The blame has been placed and can never be eradicated. Isn't that enough?
Now let's suppose that one of the Musketeers in D'Artagnan's command was a pedophile, a rapist, gave Louis a blow job, diddled the teenage daughter of a Musketeer or the daughter of a peasant? And after all these centuries, it comes to light.
What the hell do we do about that statue at the corner of Dana Ave. and Victory Parkway????? Does it stay? Do we turn it around? Do we drape it with purple? Do we put a scarlet A on its chest? What the hell do we do? D'Artagnan is dead and so is Joe Paterno. How much more vindictiveness do we need????:eek::confused::mad:

Wow. Q. Usually, I really respect your points of view, but frankly, you're way off base here. Joe Paterno knowingly and willingly allowed a person on his staff to RAPE boys. Do you have any sons? Grandsons? What would you do if you found out someone had violated one of them? What would you do if you found out someone with a lot of power knew they had been violated but not only did nothing to help the boy, but also worked diligently to cover it up? Would you say "Enough vindictiveness. This man donated money, so let's just move on!"? If it directly effected you, would you feel as you do now?

Joe Paterno is as guilty as Sandusky. He's lucky he died when he did or otherwise he'd be facing criminal charges too. Not only should the statue come down, but I hope the families of those boys and the boys themselves sue the pants off his estate and anyone else involved. Maybe then, and only then, people will begin to understand that sexual abuse is not something minor or easily dismissed.

Your argument about D'Artagnan is ridiculous, IMO. Joe Paterno hasn't been dead for centuries. Too bad for him that he didn't have the conscience or soul to report what he knew. My hope is that he's burning in hell because he'll never have to face to the real punishment here on earth that he deserves. Donating money does not make up for the "mistakes" (which weren't really mistakes, but rather criminally negligent decisions on his part), but now that the truth has come out, it is becoming clearer as to why he kept donating so much money. He obviously believed that if he gave enough money to Penn State he could buy his way into the hearts of the people despite the fact that he was evil for allowing such evil to go on without doing anything to help the real victims - none of whom were employed by Penn State.

[LadyMuskie]

Go Muskies, Christ even forgave St Dismiss on the cross. Can't we? I can't believe the scales of justice haven't been balanced. The man is dead. He was not an evil man. Who among us after age 60 or 70 or whenever hasn't made some mistakes in judgement? "Well, he got paid well for what he did and now he's fair game forever." Lord I hope when it's my time before the throne of the Lord, you're not sitting on some celestial advisory panel. If you are I'm certainly fxxked and I'm not alone. :eek:;):mad:

Paterno was evil. He knowingly allowed little boys to be raped. By doing nothing, by covering up Sandusky's disturbing actions, he fed lambs to the slaughter. I don't believe Christ or anyone else needs to forgive those actions. If Paterno was so old and feeble minded to know right from wrong, then he was too damn old to be coaching football. I'm tired of these pathetic excuses that his advanced age meant that it was okay that he decided to let little boys be violated by Sandusky. He should burn in hell.

And if you, or anyone else, at any age, doesn't stand up and do the right thing, especially when it comes to children, then you or anyone else deserves whatever punishment and ridicule comes your way. We all make mistakes, but covering up sexual abuse of little boys is not a mistake. It's a crime!

Sandusky stole the innocence of these boys and Paterno allowed it to happen. Together they worked to destroy the lives of these boys so that they could preserve their reputations and lifestyles. How anyone can defend that is beyond my comprehension and, frankly, it disgusts me. I have no use for people who condone sexual abuse, especially of children, and I have no use for people who allow it to happen.

[wkrq59]

Fortunately I was never in a position to in any way make such a decision. I have had occasion to point out the failings of several individuals who were in positions of authority and have done so. But again, when is enough enough. Or are each of us charged as some would believe with extracting vengeance until the last vestige of the man who was judged to have failed to speak out is eradicated from the earth.
Remember, "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord," and "revenge is a dish best served cold," and "when you seek vengeance, dig two graves, one for your target and one for yourself."
It's over. Some of us still believe in the sacrament of confession, or is it reconcillation? I prefer to remember the good things about the man. I also prefer to see that the perpetrator is punished in accordance with the severity of the crime and to take steps to insure that the crime is not repeated in the future.
But my common sense tells me that despite all the safeguards that are put in place after the horse is stolen, some son-of-a-bitch like Jerry Sandusky will raise up out of the swamp and make special victims units and police forces necessary.
The man was honored for the good he did. Does one horrendous mistake mean that he can never be forgiven? Apparently so in your eyes

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

The man was honored for the good he did. Does one horrendous mistake mean that he can never be forgiven? Apparently so in your eyes

But it really wasn't just one horrendous mistake. The Freeh Report was so damaging to Paterno directly.

He made dozens of huge mistakes (that which we know of) over the course of decades. These mistakes ruined the lives of many.

-He helped conceal Sandusky's actions from the BOT
-He vouched for Sandusky
-He lied to the Grand Jury on at least 2 occasions as evidenced by the emails


The report said that "Paterno empowered Sandusky to attract potential victims to the campus and football events by allowing him to have continued, unrestricted and unsupervised access to the University's facilities and affiliation with the University's prominent football program."

Paterno knew what kind of monster Sandusky was for 14 years and did nothing but protect him(Along with other people in the PSU administration).

[DC Muskie]

So because he coached guys on the football field we should keep a STATUE of him?

What the hell thinking is that? Joe Paterno didn't do some great dead by winning 409 games. He spoke of playing with honor and "class" and other virtues, while on the other hand allowing a predator to rape boys right under his nose.

No one is talking about digging up his grave and beating the shit out of it. It's about taking down a statue. That should have been erected in the first place.

Q your responses are a textbook example of why there are millions of people who HATE sports.

[golfitup]

I like how Dennis Dodd thinks Saban is a genius (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19616883/saban-stepping-up-a-new-coaching-icon-when-we-need-one-the-most).

Basically Dodd's argument is that Saban says, "Don't death penalty Penn State." Dodd supports this thinking because, " Businesses that count on game days would go bankrupt."

Can't have that. Can't have some hoagie shop in College Station go belly up because for maybe every Saturday for three months Penn State fans gobble them up.

I'm pretty tired of reading about the harm done to the current players and coaches who had nothing to do with this tragedy. If Penn State doesn't play football for just one year, these people's lives will be just fine. Please media stop acting like not playing a football game is the worse thing to ever happen to kid or a coach.

I'm inclined to bring the hammer down, at least a year. I was against them playing a game in the immediate aftermath of Paterno's firing and the riots that ensued.

At what point do we as society put sports in proper context? Kids riot early in the week, game is still played at the end. Got businesses to worry about.

Report comes out showing that administrators pushed this predator under the rug, but Lord forbid we consider cancelling a game.

And now we have Nick Saban being propped up just like we did to Joe Paterno.

Incredible. It's like we can't even realize what we are becoming...

Even Crazier White People.

It's amazing the victims even had the courage to come forward and testify in court after seeing a game being played just days after the grand jury testimony came out. Other than a moment of silence before the game, it was pretty much biz as usual that Saturday. It's all just insane. But hey, Penn State had a chance at the Big Ten title last year...

[DC Muskie]

It's amazing the victims even had the courage to come forward and testify in court after seeing a game being played just days after the grand jury testimony came out. Other than a moment of silence before the game, it was pretty much biz as usual that Saturday. It's all just insane. But hey, Penn State had a chance at the Big Ten title last year...

Spot on. I don't think I will ever warp my mind around that.

Hoagie shops are more important than victims of sexual violence.

[paulxu]

The actions/inactions of those in power at Penn State were done to preserve the football program. So the necessary punishment might need to be to get rid of it for a short period of time.

I'm not sure about this. I think they were covering their own asses more than protecting the football program.

On another note....Q, it's not for us to forgive Paterno. If there is any forgiveness to be done, it will be by the boys and their families, not us.

He may have done a lot of good things, but he lost the privilege to be remembered fondly, like with a statue or buildings in his name. Take those down. Try to remember him for the good things.

As to the program, I'm still on the side of letting the judicial system handle the criminals. This crap wasn't football program related like other NCAA stuff. Put the people in jail, sue the estate and those involved, and let the rest go.

Lady...reps. Man holding me down. I concur with your assessments.

[bobbiemcgee]

[B] The man was honored for the good he did. Does one horrendous mistake mean that he can never be forgiven?

Yes. We are talking about massive CHILD abuse for christsakes. He ruined many lives with his silence. Disgusting and reprehensible really.

I once turned in the bosses' son for harrassment. I didn't have to get involved. Thought he might be grateful (no, not really) so he wouldn't have to pay millions later on. He fired me 6 mos. later after 15 yrs.
He died last month. I'll be out there to spit on his grave soon.

[LadyMuskie]

Fortunately I was never in a position to in any way make such a decision. I have had occasion to point out the failings of several individuals who were in positions of authority and have done so. But again, when is enough enough. Or are each of us charged as some would believe with extracting vengeance until the last vestige of the man who was judged to have failed to speak out is eradicated from the earth.
Remember, "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord," and "revenge is a dish best served cold," and "when you seek vengeance, dig two graves, one for your target and one for yourself."
It's over. Some of us still believe in the sacrament of confession, or is it reconcillation? I prefer to remember the good things about the man. I also prefer to see that the perpetrator is punished in accordance with the severity of the crime and to take steps to insure that the crime is not repeated in the future.
But my common sense tells me that despite all the safeguards that are put in place after the horse is stolen, some son-of-a-bitch like Jerry Sandusky will raise up out of the swamp and make special victims units and police forces necessary.
The man was honored for the good he did. Does one horrendous mistake mean that he can never be forgiven? Apparently so in your eyes

What good is it that you're choosing to remember that was so good, so righteous that it wipes out sexual abuse of a child? Paterno didn't make one mistake. More than once, over a period of years (not days, not weeks, not months) he covered up the disgusting, horrible crimes Sandusky committed, and then allowed (through said cover up) Sandusky to continue to be around little boys and create more victims. So, what so-called good erases that? Wins on a football field? Building a library to house some books?

Everyone on this planet has good and evil in them. Most of us only act on the good, but some of us, act on the evil. Paterno did. Sandusky did. I don't pretend to believe that there aren't more Sanduskys out there, but that doesn't mean that what Sandusky and Paterno did is any less vile and criminal. We MUST stop making excuses for those who commit heinous crimes.

You might call it vengeance. I don't really care. I know my sins, and while they are many, they don't come anywhere close to rape or giving someone in my employ the opportunity to rape little boys. If God wants to judge me poorly for believing that Paterno was scum of the earth right along with Sandusky, and that I sincerely hope Paterno is feeling the fires of hell as I type this, then so be it. I'll take that judgment, but I don't believe in that kind of God. I don't believe that God is going to judge me for having compassion for boys who had their lives upended so that Paterno could make lots of money and have lots of glory.

[wkrq59]

Wow! Never thought I'd create such a fire storm. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
I helped raise a very responsible and loving son and daughter and a doting grandson of whom I'm very proud. Yes, I would do violence to anyone who even got close to doing what Jerry Sandusky did which Joe Paterno apparently facilitated.
Having been in State College Pa., Talahassee and Gainesville Fla., Columbus and Oxford Oh., Ann Arbor Michigan, South Bend Indiana, Knoxville, TN., Norman, Oklahoma, on game days and the nights before, I have seen mere men adored as if they were gods of the ancients. I have come to see how absolute power corrupts absolutely.
But I have also seen what happens when a rush to judgement can completely overshadow any good works a mere man may have done.
Nothing will ever be able to repair damage done by the despicable acts of Sandusky which were apparently facilitated by Paterno.
But in the same vein, removing Paterno's statue, striping his name from everything at Penn State University and trying to make believe that he never existed, that Sandusky was all Paterno's fault, that the football program itself is solely responsible for all the evil in that once Happy Valley, is unrealistic.
Numerous coaches from Lou Holtz to Bear Bryant to Bobby Bowden to Bo Schembechler to Woody Hayes to John Robinson to whomever, all had a felix culpa which in some way tarnished their image. None was of the severity of Joe Paterno but they were there and the programs they developed which helped them become icons in their profession and afterwards are still thriving despite their failings at one time or other.
In a perfect world, we'd never have reason to recall places like State College, Pa., Aurora Colorado, LIttleton Colorado, Oklahoma City, New York, New York and 911, and Pearl Harbor. But the world ain't perfect. All we can do is the best we can and try not to seek vengeance which really isn't ours to seek.
An old priest who long ago went to his heavenly reward used to say before he began a homily each Sunday, "Sweep clean before your own door." You know, I believe that.
But never forget, 76-53. Go Muskies :D

[DC Muskie]

You make ZERO sense Q. Your arguments are all over the place.

Removing a statue is not vengeance. Do you understand that? You act like there should be any punishment, since you know...the abuse is over.

We aren't even halfway through with this process. PSU officials have to face the possibility of punishment. Even in the end, Paterno tried to tell the BOT that HE would decide when he would step down, not anyone else. He still go the money he negotiated when this incident broke open.

His last interview he lied about not not knowing the 1998 incident. He lied when he told Sally Jenkins he didn't know anything about "man and rape." He is a liar. Not a liar about grades, or eligibility, but about what he knew about a predator operating in the empire HE built alone. To compare it to Bowden, or Holtz, or 911 (??) or The Xavier Musketeer is just flat out stupid.

And you think there is this "rush to judgement." Come on. Take down a stupid statue.

We as a society need to be reminded of the proper place sports has in our lives. If this current situation at PSU isn't one where can step back and say, "Maybe not playing a year or two would be a good thing," then I'm afraid nothing will.

[bobbiemcgee]

Sorry Q, a rape was reported to Paterno in 1998. He swept it under the rug. By doing so, he allowed the rape of young boys to continue. That's definitely on him and totally ruins any legacy talk left. I'm surprised some kid's father didn't shoot him before he died. Scumbags all.

[LadyMuskie]

You make ZERO sense Q. Your arguments are all over the place.

Removing a statue is not vengeance. Do you understand that? You act like there should be any punishment, since you know...the abuse is over.

We aren't even halfway through with this process. PSU officials have to face the possibility of punishment. Even in the end, Paterno tried to tell the BOT that HE would decide when he would step down, not anyone else. He still go the money he negotiated when this incident broke open.

His last interview he lied about not not knowing the 1998 incident. He lied when he told Sally Jenkins he didn't know anything about "man and rape." He is a liar. Not a liar about grades, or eligibility, but about what he knew about a predator operating in the empire HE built alone. To compare it to Bowden, or Holtz, or 911 (??) or The Xavier Musketeer is just flat out stupid.

And you think there is this "rush to judgement." Come on. Take down a stupid statue.

We as a society need to be reminded of the proper place sports has in our lives. If this current situation at PSU isn't one where can step back and say, "Maybe not playing a year or two would be a good thing," then I'm afraid nothing will.


Sorry Q, a rape was reported to Paterno in 1998. He swept it under the rug. By doing so, he allowed the rape of young boys to continue. That's definitely on him and totally ruins any legacy talk left. I'm surprised some kid's father didn't shoot him before he died. Scumbags all.

Exactly!

[DC Muskie]

What good did Joe Paterno do? That hasn't been done by countless other major football coaches?

Read this. (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--joe-paterno-blame-freeh-report-jerry-sandusky-penn-state-tarnished-legacy.html)

And then this (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19616471/end-the-madness-penn-state-and-give-us-paternos-statue)..

Pretty much sums up my thoughts.

[X-band '01]

The NCAA is going to have a press conference tomorrow morning at 9 AM - not having a statue of JoePa should be the least of Penn State's concerns at this point.

[XULucho27]

The NCAA is going to have a press conference tomorrow morning at 9 AM - not having a statue of JoePa should be the least of Penn State's concerns at this point.

I found this quote interesting regarding the expected punishment:


But Penn State will not receive the so-called "death penalty" that would have suspended the program for at least one year, the source said.

The penalties, however, are considered to be so harsh that the death penalty may have been preferable, the source said.

If said source is credible, I'm assuming they will receive a MAJOR reduction in scholarships and a multiple (4-5?) season bowl ban. Still, I don't see how the death penalty would be preferable. I'm assuming the thinking goes that the penalties will make it impossible for Penn State to be competitive for years to come, but will still require them to field a team. Either way, it sounds like they're screwed. I wonder if B1G will try to kick them out.

[paulxu]

They're going to be forced to swap places with somebody so they can be in the Legends group.

[MADXSTER]

At least they can fall back on basketball. After all, they are a high major program since they are a BCS school. ;)

[GoMuskies]

Rumor on the Penn State board was a 4-5 year bowl ban, possibly with zero scholarships (current players keep theirs, but no more can be given for 4-5 years).

That's essentially a 10 year death penalty, if true. Certainly harsh....and certainly richly deserved.

[xsteve1]

Surprised the Big 10 hasn't rescinded their membership yet. No way they could compete in the Big 10. They won't even be able to compete in the Sun Belt or MAC.

[golfitup]

At least they can fall back on basketball. After all, they are a high major program since they are a BCS school. ;)

You ever see any of their home games? There is no one at that gym. It's pathetic. The Crispin brothers aren't walking through that door.

[XULucho27]

Possible fine as well.

NCAA May Fine Penn State Up To $60 Million (http://deadspin.com/5928112/ncaa-may-fine-penn-state-up-to-60-million?comment=51188321)

I agree with this point of the article:


It would appear that the NCAA is doing everything it can to kill the Penn State program without actually killing it. Rather than a swift death, the NCAA is trying to starve Penn State. But there's no guarantee it will work. The NCAA is taking the evil-genius-bad-guy approach and just hoping the person trapped in the building they set fire to will die, rather than putting a bullet in his head.

[X-band '01]

Possible fine as well.

NCAA May Fine Penn State Up To $60 Million (http://deadspin.com/5928112/ncaa-may-fine-penn-state-up-to-60-million?comment=51188321)

I agree with this point of the article:

From what I saw on CBSSports.com, any fine money will be going towards establishing a fund for helping abused children.

I will say this - the reaction here is a lot different than what happened at Syracuse regarding the whole Bernie Fine scandal. After stumbling out of the gates from a PR standpoint, Jim Boeheim and his wife ultimately did start more behind-the-scenes work as far as raising awareness for helping abused children. While a number of the accusations regarding Fine were false, there certainly doesn't appear to be a culture of cover-up and denial at Syracuse like there was at Penn State.


Surprised the Big 10 hasn't rescinded their membership yet. No way they could compete in the Big 10. They won't even be able to compete in the Sun Belt or MAC.

I don't think the B1G will kick Penn State out until they have a replacement lined up - they're not going to sacrifice their new cash cow that is the football championship game. Gotta have 12 schools for that to take place. I suppose they could make a run for Virginia (and get the lucrative DC market in the process) and claim that it's purely for academic reasons...

[XULucho27]

I don't think the B1G will kick Penn State out until they have a replacement lined up - they're not going to sacrifice their new cash cow that is the football championship game. Gotta have 12 schools for that to take place. I suppose they could make a run for Virginia (and get the lucrative DC market in the process) and claim that it's purely for academic reasons...

Agreed. After years of not having a championship game, they're not going to simply give it up for lack of having a valid replacement in the event Penn State is banished so-to-speak.

But, it looks like B1G is already setting things in motion, or at least making it painfully obvious that they will add to the Penn State reprimands:

Iowa president: Big Ten has 'jurisdiction' to punish Penn State (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/eye-on-college-football/19633881)

Penn State will be in a world of shit if they are reduced to zero scholarships for the next few years AND they lose their conference affiliation.

[GoMuskies]

If Penn State can't give any scholarships for several years, they cannot play a Big Ten schedule in football. It's just not realistic. They'd put their players at risk of getting killed. Georgia Tech over Cumberland would be in jeopardy if someone felt like it.

[GoMuskies]

Live video of press conference here: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=2n&tag=mncol;lst;3

So far it sounds like the NCAA is about to put the hammer down.

[GoMuskies]

$60 million fine - 1 year gross revenue of football team
4 year bowl ban
Reduction of scholarships from 25 to 15 for four years
All players free to leave
All wins from 1998 to 2011 vacated (congrats Eddie Robinson)
5 years probation

[More Cowbell]

The 60 million dollar fine is pocket change, but I would think that the rest of the penalties will make Penn State non competitive for a long time.

[GoMuskies]

No appeal as Penn State agreed to the penalties.

[DC Muskie]

Mike Decourcy thinks this all terrible:

So 80 grants at $30K per year, NCAA has destroyed $2.4 million worth of free education to assure college sports have proper priorities.

[DC Muskie]

Does PSU have to kick off 20 players off the team to get down to new scholarship limitations?

[X-band '01]

It just means that they have a 15-scholarship limit (or maximum minus 10) for each recruiting class for the next 4 seasons. Nobody is going to be kicked off the current team to get to the scholarship limit. That would mean that they will not have a full scholarship allotment until 2020 given that they will be able to offer a full annual allotment beginning with the 2017 season.

But with the players free to transfer immediately, there will likely be some turnover.

Penn State could still face further sanctions (more likely of a monetary nature) from the Big 10 conference. It doesn't sound like they'll be kicked out of the conference in favor of another team, but I would have to believe their share of conference revenues could be significantly reduced for a few seasons.

[DC Muskie]

So the stuff that Mike is bitching about on Twitter is just flat out wrong.

Figures.

[GoMuskies]

It will be exciting for Indiana to be able to say they beat Penn State four or five years in a row.

[XULucho27]

Mark Emmert just said:

How do you craft sanctions that have the intended effect - clearly this calls for punitive action, but cearly it also calls for corrective action - to enable and ensure that the kind of culture change occurs that's necessary at Penn State University. [sic]
I really think he underestimates the misguided strength of the Happy Valley football family. These people will rally around their university. Penn State will suck for a few years, but they'll be back. I don't think you can change the culture at Penn State through sanctions or fines. It will take years to undo what has happened at that university and the NCAA will have little to no role in doing so.

This punishment was designed to cripple, but not to kill.

[blueblob06]

The 60 million dollar fine is pocket change, but I would think that the rest of the penalties will make Penn State non competitive for a long time.

Not really, Mike&Mike just said that 60 Mil is about one year's total revenue. That's like fining a company a full-year's worth of revenue at one time.

[blueblob06]

Does PSU have to kick off 20 players off the team to get down to new scholarship limitations?

I'm pretty sure it's each of the next upcoming years...so for the next class, they can only offer 15 schollies, not 25 (10 scholarship penalty per year). And the next after that, etc...

[X-band '01]

That's probably more than their bowl proceeds from the 1998 through the 2011 seasons.