Penn State

[stophorseabuse]

Yes, their scholarships are cut to 15. NOT THE PROBLEM.

What level player will go there? The best players will leave, new kids want no part of 1. An awful team or 2. No way to play in a bowl game.

Nothing to play for. SE Louisiana is a greater option. Program is dead for years. I bet 40 players transfer out. DONE.

[blueblob06]

Yes, their scholarships are cut to 15. NOT THE PROBLEM.

What level player will go there? The best players will leave, new kids want no part of 1. An awful team or 2. No way to play in a bowl game.

Nothing to play for. SE Louisiana is a greater option. Program is dead for years. I bet 40 players transfer out. DONE.

Yep, even before the penalities, over the last 8 months, 3 and 4 star commits were changing their mind and prospects considering them were dropping PSU off their lists entirely.

They are going to be in very bad shape.

[outsideobserver11]

Also, teams that take on a Penn State transfer are not going to be held to the 85 man roster limit. Time for somebody to try and bring on the whole starting offense and go nuts.

[DC Muskie]

Also, teams that take on a Penn State transfer are not going to be held to the 85 man roster limit. Time for somebody to try and bring on the whole starting offense and go nuts.

I'm looking at you Coach Edsall.

[DC Muskie]

BIG 10's comment (http://www.bigten.org/genrel/072312aaa.html).

[XULucho27]

Big Ten will also impose the following sanctions:

edit: see above, DC beat me to it.

[blueblob06]

Also, teams that take on a Penn State transfer are not going to be held to the 85 man roster limit. Time for somebody to try and bring on the whole starting offense and go nuts.

Really? I didn't hear that. That's crazy. So if say 8 guys transferred from PSU to Pitt, Pitt would be allowed to have a 93 man roster? Wow.

[boozehound]

This will represent a nice windfall for schools that compete with Penn State for recruits.

Hopefully my man Brady Hoke can snatch up some big time players.

[xudash]

BIG 10's comment (http://www.bigten.org/genrel/072312aaa.html).

As I thought, fined by the NCAA plus excluded from B1G distributions for the duration of the bowl ban period.

Happy Valley my @ss.

[Juice]

Really? I didn't hear that. That's crazy. So if say 8 guys transferred from PSU to Pitt, Pitt would be allowed to have a 93 man roster? Wow.

I believe they would have to limit their rosters accordingly next year (2013 season).

[Blue Blooded-05]

Interesting article found in the Penn State archives titled: What If Ohio State Happened To Penn State?

Actual response found in the comments section:
"State College and the surrounding area takes pride in the clean reputation of Penn State. It’s ingrained in the area. Any deviation from “may no act of ours bring shame” by the university coaches or administration would be met with anger and the calling for “heads to roll”.
Any business that would be involved in such rule breaking would be ostracized by enough residents and alumni to soon be out of business. In other words, there would be consequences, unlike what is happening in Columbus. State College is too small of a town to get away with these shenanigans and remain in business."

http://www.linebacker-u.com/2011/06/ohio-state-penn-state-could-it-happen-penn-state/

[XUglow]

I believe they would have to limit their rosters accordingly next year (2013 season).

They set the rule so you can go over this year, but you will have to pay for it later. No coach is going to go to 93 this year and go down to 78 the following year. Heck, it would have to be a really special player for you to go to 86 if it meant that you only could have 84 players the following year.

Saban is at 87 now and will need to be at 85 when practice starts. Look for a couple of guys to have career-ending chronic problems with knees or backs. If the right PSU player is immediately available, Saban will "process" more than 2. He will process marginal players before he takes a player that will cost him a scholly later.

[XULucho27]

Interesting article found in the Penn State archives titled: What If Ohio State Happened To Penn State?

Actual response found in the comments section:
"State College and the surrounding area takes pride in the clean reputation of Penn State. It’s ingrained in the area. Any deviation from “may no act of ours bring shame” by the university coaches or administration would be met with anger and the calling for “heads to roll”.
Any business that would be involved in such rule breaking would be ostracized by enough residents and alumni to soon be out of business. In other words, there would be consequences, unlike what is happening in Columbus. State College is too small of a town to get away with these shenanigans and remain in business."

http://www.linebacker-u.com/2011/06/ohio-state-penn-state-could-it-happen-penn-state/

http://marclombardi.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/psublinders.jpg

I honestly believe the above. If these sort of shennanigans were to occur at Penn State heads would indeed roll. So whenever you can prove actual wrongdoing, please let me know.

-Penn State grad, Class of 2007

[GoMuskies]

Interesting article found in the Penn State archives titled: What If Ohio State Happened To Penn State?

Actual response found in the comments section:
"State College and the surrounding area takes pride in the clean reputation of Penn State. It’s ingrained in the area. Any deviation from “may no act of ours bring shame” by the university coaches or administration would be met with anger and the calling for “heads to roll”.
Any business that would be involved in such rule breaking would be ostracized by enough residents and alumni to soon be out of business. In other words, there would be consequences, unlike what is happening in Columbus. State College is too small of a town to get away with these shenanigans and remain in business."

http://www.linebacker-u.com/2011/06/ohio-state-penn-state-could-it-happen-penn-state/

A good reminder this stuff can happen anywhere. We're certainly not immune. We've all seen how clumsy our admin can be at times.

[xubrew]

A couple of thoughts and points...

-I completely agree with the sentiment that we need to be reminded of the proper place for sports in our lives. Along those same lines, I find it perplexing that people are more adamately calling for the NCAA and the Big Ten to be involved than they are for actual law enforcement. The NCAA is the National COLLEGIATE ATHLETIC Association. To me, I can't help but think this is outside the scope (and perhaps the capabilities) of the NCAA to effectively handle. Saying the NCAA needs to bring the hammer down is a little like saying the DMV needs to bring the hammer down on Sandusky's driving priveledges.

To be honest, my feelings are probably a reflection of another frustration that I have. I don't think universities in general know when to get the hell out of the way and let the cops take over. Not just with athletics, but with everything. We've even seen this at Xavier. The dean of students is not a part of law enforcement. If it's underage drinking, or vandalism, or loud parties, or petty things like that, then yes, those are university issues. If it's sexual assault, or rape, or (for the love of God) sexually assaulting children for a period of fifteen years, that's a serious legal issue. The university's role should be to call the police and get the hell out of the way. Far too often that's not what is done, though. Universities are almost instinctively against doing that and then try to handle it on their own when they are grossly incapable of doing so. That's what happened at Penn State, and although it hasn't happened to this extent, it has happened to some extent at many universities.

It's not that I take issues with the sanctions. I personally don't care a damn thing about Penn State. It's just that I feel that this really isn't an athletics issue. It is a serious legal issue. Mark Emmert does not need to be heading the charge. He's not a policemen, nor is he a prosecuting attourney. His role should be secondary. It almost seems silly to me for people to worry whether or not Penn State takes down a statue or whether or not the NCAA gets involved. The police and the district attourneys need to be involved, and it is their involvement that people should be most concerned about. Whether or not they're going to a bowl game is so secondary it seems unimportant....at least to me.



-Just one more thing, the "death penalty" is basically a slang term for what is really called the "repeat violator rule." Emphasis on "Repeat." In order for it to be considered, it has to be an offense that a school has already been punished for committing, but has committed again within five years. It does not apply to this situation, nor does it apply to most situations when the media begins throwing it out there. Just a little FYI for everyone. Penn State might be a very extreme and aggregious example, but it still their first time committing and being punished for this type of violation. Now, if they do it again in the next five years, then they'll get the death penalty.


-

[Snipe]

$60 million fine - 1 year gross revenue of football team
4 year bowl ban
Reduction of scholarships from 25 to 15 for four years
All players free to leave
All wins from 1998 to 2011 vacated (congrats Eddie Robinson)
5 years probation

They took Paterno's record away. That made me laugh. They can do anything. He is no longer the winning-est coach of all time, because they said so.

[DC Muskie]

They took Paterno's record away. That made me laugh. They can do anything. He is no longer the winning-est coach of all time, because they said so.

This is one big FU to Penn State fans. I loved it.

[xudash]

A couple of thoughts and points...

-I completely agree with the sentiment that we need to be reminded of the proper place for sports in our lives. Along those same lines, I find it perplexing that people are more adamately calling for the NCAA and the Big Ten to be involved than they are for actual law enforcement. The NCAA is the National COLLEGIATE ATHLETIC Association. To me, I can't help but think this is outside the scope (and perhaps the capabilities) of the NCAA to effectively handle. Saying the NCAA needs to bring the hammer down is a little like saying the DMV needs to bring the hammer down on Sandusky's driving priveledges.

To be honest, my feelings are probably a reflection of another frustration that I have. I don't think universities in general know when to get the hell out of the way and let the cops take over. Not just with athletics, but with everything. We've even seen this at Xavier. The dean of students is not a part of law enforcement. If it's underage drinking, or vandalism, or loud parties, or petty things like that, then yes, those are university issues. If it's sexual assault, or rape, or (for the love of God) sexually assaulting children for a period of fifteen years, that's a serious legal issue. The university's role should be to call the police and get the hell out of the way. Far too often that's not what is done, though. Universities are almost instinctively against doing that and then try to handle it on their own when they are grossly incapable of doing so. That's what happened at Penn State, and although it hasn't happened to this extent, it has happened to some extent at many universities.

It's not that I take issues with the sanctions. I personally don't care a damn thing about Penn State. It's just that I feel that this really isn't an athletics issue. It is a serious legal issue. Mark Emmert does not need to be heading the charge. He's not a policemen, nor is he a prosecuting attourney. His role should be secondary. It almost seems silly to me for people to worry whether or not Penn State takes down a statue or whether or not the NCAA gets involved. The police and the district attourneys need to be involved, and it is their involvement that people should be most concerned about. Whether or not they're going to a bowl game is so secondary it seems unimportant....at least to me.



-Just one more thing, the "death penalty" is basically a slang term for what is really called the "repeat violator rule." Emphasis on "Repeat." In order for it to be considered, it has to be an offense that a school has already been punished for committing, but has committed again within five years. It does not apply to this situation, nor does it apply to most situations when the media begins throwing it out there. Just a little FYI for everyone. Penn State might be a very extreme and aggregious example, but it still their first time committing and being punished for this type of violation. Now, if they do it again in the next five years, then they'll get the death penalty.


-

Thanks for the actual definition for the "death penalty." I didn't know that was its scope.

I agree with you completely that the law enforcement officials must be provided full cooperation and complete access in order to determine the proper legal outcomes in this matter.

Otherwise, this is both an athletic and legal issue. Certain key and powerful Penn State personnel, including the President, AD and head football coach, attempted to cover-up egregious acts by another athletic department employee. Penn State's lack of ability to conduct its athletic operations responsibly now has consequences for the institution itself, as well as for its fellow conference members and conference.

Overall, I don't think it's about being an either/or matter, or about one authority clearing out of the way of the other. They're both involved as they should be. The football program brings in $60 million per year in revenue in PSU's case (struck me as a low number, given Ohio State at over $120 million per year in total AD revenue). Most conferences attract peer institutions that are capable of reflecting positively on the conference on and off the field. PSU has damaged its ability to do that and now reflects poorly on the NCAA and the B1G.

They've now been hit by the NCAA and their conference.

Beyond what already has been addressed for Sandusky directly, the legal stuff, which must be scary for the President and AD, in particular, hasn't really even started yet. This is far from over, and it won't end well for them, as it should.

[xubrew]

Still, it is utterly perplexing to me that people in general seem far more interested and concerned with the NCAA's handling of this than they are with law enforcement's handling of this.

It's as if the attitude is "We've got to make sure the NCAA fines them the right amount of money, and bans them from bowls for the right number of years, and vacates the right number of wins, and takes away the right number of scholarships. Oh yeah, and if law enforcement can actually successfully prosecute all those responsible, that would be nice too, I guess."

When it comes to keeping sports in the proper place in our lives, covering up sex offenses so as to not damage the football program is completely out of whack, but so is worrying more about the athletic consequences than the legal ones. Unfortunately, that's what the majority of people seem most concerned with. That's just sad.

[bleedXblue]

Still, it is utterly perplexing to me that people in general seem far more interested and concerned with the NCAA's handling of this than they are with law enforcement's handling of this.

It's as if the attitude is "We've got to make sure the NCAA fines them the right amount of money, and bans them from bowls for the right number of years, and vacates the right number of wins, and takes away the right number of scholarships. Oh yeah, and if law enforcement can actually successfully prosecute all those responsible, that would be nice too, I guess."

When it comes to keeping sports in the proper place in our lives, covering up sex offenses so as to not damage the football program is completely out of whack, but so is worrying more about the athletic consequences than the legal ones. Unfortunately, that's what the majority of people seem most concerned with. That's just sad.

I think the NCAA is entirely within scope in how they handled things. This guy was a football coach (Sandusky). Paterno covered this thing up to avoid the embarressment and negative publicity. Paterno let this guy continue to have access to the campus and young men even when he knew of the allegations and personal accounts from his own staff members.

Law enforcement is handing this ? Sandusky is done for life. I think they will pursure Spanier and the Athletic Director as well. Give it some time.

[wkrq59]

My apologies to DC Muskie, BobbieMcGee, Lady Muskie and Go Muskies and any other poster I may have shocked, horrified, offended with my stupid attempts to explain the late Joe Paterno and his role in the Sandusky scandal.
Having read the Freeh report I've come to advocate far more severe penalties than the NCAA added on the already severe judgements and sanctions in place in State College, Pa. I forgot Pete Gillen's "Times change, people change so I never say never" mantra.
The Joe Paterno I knew in the early '80s was not the same man who facilitated Jerry Sandusky's rape of young boys. He was worse and few if anybody saw it. In his quest for power, success and victory he was like the minuscule seeds of a cancer back then, a cancer that would eventually devour a once proud university in the name of football. I also violated a rule one of my editors lived by, "Never let personal feelings color your judgement." Suffice to say, I not proud of some of my opinions re: Penn State and Paterno. I only hope that when the dust finally settles on this whole mess long after I'm no longer here, some form of forgiveness will be possible. But as the saying goes, you can forgive but never ever forget. And I know too well those children who had their lives ruined by Sandusky may never forgive him and I understand that.:(

[blueblob06]

My apologies to DC Muskie, BobbieMcGee, Lady Muskie and Go Muskies and any other poster I may have shocked, horrified, offended with my stupid attempts to explain the late Joe Paterno and his role in the Sandusky scandal.
Having read the Freeh report I've come to advocate far more severe penalties than the NCAA added on the already severe judgements and sanctions in place in State College, Pa. I forgot Pete Gillen's "Times change, people change so I never say never" mantra.
The Joe Paterno I knew in the early '80s was not the same man who facilitated Jerry Sandusky's rape of young boys. He was worse and few if anybody saw it. In his quest for power, success and victory he was like the minuscule seeds of a cancer back then, a cancer that would eventually devour a once proud university in the name of football. I also violated a rule one of my editors lived by, "Never let personal feelings color your judgement." Suffice to say, I not proud of some of my opinions re: Penn State and Paterno. I only hope that when the dust finally settles on this whole mess long after I'm no longer here, some form of forgiveness will be possible. But as the saying goes, you can forgive but never ever forget. And I know too well those children who had their lives ruined by Sandusky may never forgive him and I understand that.:(

I haven't read the Freeh report and don't know if I will because of analysts saying that it was written more in opinion and assumption than fact. I'm definitely not defending Joe or anyone here. It really bothered me that after this all came about, Joe had a press conference set up to explain what he knew and answer questions. But Penn State stopped that and any other press conference with him from happening. Really would've liked to hear what he had to say.

[xubrew]

I think the NCAA is entirely within scope in how they handled things. This guy was a football coach (Sandusky). Paterno covered this thing up to avoid the embarressment and negative publicity. Paterno let this guy continue to have access to the campus and young men even when he knew of the allegations and personal accounts from his own staff members.

Law enforcement is handing this ? Sandusky is done for life. I think they will pursure Spanier and the Athletic Director as well. Give it some time.

I didn't say law enforcement wasn't handling it. If I gave that impression then I'm sorry because I think they're doing a very thorough job. I also think that Penn State better brace itself for civil suits once that is over.

I said that people care far less about that than the NCAA, who has nothing to do with law enforcement. I agree that the NCAA has a role. I just think it's sad that it is their role that most people are concerned about.

Penn State is part of the AAU. What's their role?? The university president and members of the board were involved in this as well, so should people be screaming for the AAU to do something?? Does anyone care??

[DC Muskie]

Alright I really want to beat the shit out of Penn State fans.

They just interviewed a chick out here in DC who says this decision is really going to affect the bars in the DC metro area.

This is what it comes down to...PSU fans will not go to a bar to watch a team that will not go to a bowl game, and O'Ryn's pub will go out of business.

Guys your school covered up a pedophile for years. You now don't get to enjoy football like you used to because your 120 year old coach claims he doesn't know anything about "man and rape." Grow up.

[golfitup]

Alright I really want to beat the shit out of Penn State fans.

They just interviewed a chick out here in DC who says this decision is really going to affect the bars in the DC metro area.

This is what it comes down to...PSU fans will not go to a bar to watch a team that will not go to a bowl game, and O'Ryn's pub will go out of business.

Guys your school covered up a pedophile for years. You now don't get to enjoy football like you used to because your 120 year old coach claims he doesn't know anything about "man and rape." Grow up.

Public reps. Man keeping me down.

[xubrew]

Alright I really want to beat the shit out of Penn State fans.

I wanted to do that before I even knew who Jerry Sandusky was.

[X-band '01]

A couple of thoughts and points...

-I completely agree with the sentiment that we need to be reminded of the proper place for sports in our lives. Along those same lines, I find it perplexing that people are more adamately calling for the NCAA and the Big Ten to be involved than they are for actual law enforcement. The NCAA is the National COLLEGIATE ATHLETIC Association. To me, I can't help but think this is outside the scope (and perhaps the capabilities) of the NCAA to effectively handle. Saying the NCAA needs to bring the hammer down is a little like saying the DMV needs to bring the hammer down on Sandusky's driving priveledges.

To be honest, my feelings are probably a reflection of another frustration that I have. I don't think universities in general know when to get the hell out of the way and let the cops take over. Not just with athletics, but with everything. We've even seen this at Xavier. The dean of students is not a part of law enforcement. If it's underage drinking, or vandalism, or loud parties, or petty things like that, then yes, those are university issues. If it's sexual assault, or rape, or (for the love of God) sexually assaulting children for a period of fifteen years, that's a serious legal issue. The university's role should be to call the police and get the hell out of the way. Far too often that's not what is done, though. Universities are almost instinctively against doing that and then try to handle it on their own when they are grossly incapable of doing so. That's what happened at Penn State, and although it hasn't happened to this extent, it has happened to some extent at many universities.

It's not that I take issues with the sanctions. I personally don't care a damn thing about Penn State. It's just that I feel that this really isn't an athletics issue. It is a serious legal issue. Mark Emmert does not need to be heading the charge. He's not a policemen, nor is he a prosecuting attourney. His role should be secondary. It almost seems silly to me for people to worry whether or not Penn State takes down a statue or whether or not the NCAA gets involved. The police and the district attourneys need to be involved, and it is their involvement that people should be most concerned about. Whether or not they're going to a bowl game is so secondary it seems unimportant....at least to me.



-Just one more thing, the "death penalty" is basically a slang term for what is really called the "repeat violator rule." Emphasis on "Repeat." In order for it to be considered, it has to be an offense that a school has already been punished for committing, but has committed again within five years. It does not apply to this situation, nor does it apply to most situations when the media begins throwing it out there. Just a little FYI for everyone. Penn State might be a very extreme and aggregious example, but it still their first time committing and being punished for this type of violation. Now, if they do it again in the next five years, then they'll get the death penalty.


-

Mark Emmert made one thing perfectly clear - it's the presidents who are supposed to be in charge of their universities, not the coaches and athletic directors. While Emmert and his cohorts in the NCAA aren't going to handle the criminal aspects of people in power at Penn State, he was able to move swiftly in regards to probation and sanctions for Penn State because their view was that the Freeh report negated the need for further NCAA investigation. Again, extraordinary case, extraordinary circumstances.

Besides, tell me you weren't watching a lovely marathon on the Ocho featuring the U, Pony Excess and the Fab 5 back-to-back last night. Now it's REALLY eerie watching highlights of the 1986 title game and seeing Miami as choirboys in comparison to Penn State circa 1998 to now.

[xubrew]

It just dawned on me.....

Temple has passed Penn State as a program.

-Technically, Penn State has not won a game since 1997.

-Penn State has been reduced to essentially a 1AA/FCS program for the next four years. They have some very good talent now, but open season has been declared on it. Not only can players transfer without penalty, but other schools are allowed to initiate the contact. Penn State has almost no chance of retaining their highly rated freshman, redshirt freshman and sophomores. On top of that, they've been capped at 15 scholarships a year, and the bowl ban makes Penn State a very hard sell to recruits.

-Temple, has no such disadvantages. They will most likely be significantly better than Penn State for a very long time, but then again so will about 100 other teams. Indiana should celebrate. They will no longer be the doormat of the Big Ten.

-Penn State has virtually no chance. They didn't get the death penalty because it wasn't in the cards, but what they got is just as bad long term. If your options are walking on at Penn State who will be the doormat of the Big Ten, or seeing limited minutes as a scholarship player at a MAC school, most will choose the MAC school. The reality probably won't set in until the end of the season, or the beginning of next season, but Penn State has been stripped of having any real competitive chance. Beating IU will now be considered an upset. So would beating Temple.

[X-band '01]

That's probably why some people said privately that Penn State may prefer the "repeat violator rule" as opposed to what's taking place right now. They will not have a full scholarship roster until 2020 at the earliest, assuming they comply with all conditions of their probation.

I'm sure Pitt and Temple can start a new rivalry for PA bragging rights now.

[xudash]

brew was making a great point about how Temple may make out in all this, recruiting wise. I had completely forgotten about Pitt. This certainly should lift Pitt to some degree.

Some things never change? In this case, apparently not.

[Blue Blooded-05]

It just dawned on me.....

Temple has passed Penn State as a program.

-Technically, Penn State has not won a game since 1997.

-Penn State has been reduced to essentially a 1AA/FCS program for the next four years. They have some very good talent now, but open season has been declared on it. Not only can players transfer without penalty, but other schools are allowed to initiate the contact. Penn State has almost no chance of retaining their highly rated freshman, redshirt freshman and sophomores. On top of that, they've been capped at 15 scholarships a year, and the bowl ban makes Penn State a very hard sell to recruits.

-Temple, has no such disadvantages. They will most likely be significantly better than Penn State for a very long time, but then again so will about 100 other teams. Indiana should celebrate. They will no longer be the doormat of the Big Ten.

-Penn State has virtually no chance. They didn't get the death penalty because it wasn't in the cards, but what they got is just as bad long term. If your options are walking on at Penn State who will be the doormat of the Big Ten, or seeing limited minutes as a scholarship player at a MAC school, most will choose the MAC school. The reality probably won't set in until the end of the season, or the beginning of next season, but Penn State has been stripped of having any real competitive chance. Beating IU will now be considered an upset. So would beating Temple.

2 more interesting facts:
(1) The 2010 Ohio State/Penn State game is the first sporting event in history to be vacated by BOTH schools. The game simply never happened. I was actually at the game... or so I thought... turns out, it was just a mirage...

(2) The last game Penn State won... in 1997... the now infamous Mike McQueary was the starting quarterback.

[xubrew]

If Penn State manages a win this year, should the school celebrate the end of its 14 year winless streak??

[xubrew]

How many years did Prarie View go without winning a game?? It was either seven or eight. Well, Penn State has almost doubled that.

[UCGRAD4X]

I can see some players who would otherwise never have had a snowball's chance in hell to play for Penn State now seizing the opportunity to be able to say, "I played for Penn State." Question is: how long will it be before that means something again?

[XU 87]

I haven't read the Freeh report and don't know if I will because of analysts saying that it was written more in opinion and assumption than fact.

I have read the pertinent parts of the Freeh report and it is more opinion and assumption than fact. The biggest opinion contained in the report which has now been recognized as fact is that Paterno covered up for Sandusky for about 15 years to protect the football program. While that claim may or may not be true, there are no facts contained in the report other than speculation to support that claim.

[danaandvictory]

I haven't read the Freeh report and don't know if I will because of analysts saying that it was written more in opinion and assumption than fact.

So you are refusing to read the primary source because, in the opinion of "analysts", the Freeh report is itself opinion. That makes no sense whatsoever.


It really bothered me that after this all came about, Joe had a press conference set up to explain what he knew and answer questions. But Penn State stopped that and any other press conference with him from happening. Really would've liked to hear what he had to say.

"Joe" is the real victim here, of course. Who cares what that pious, narcissistic asshole had to say? His actions (or lack thereof) said it all. He valued his precious program and his sanctimonious "Grand Experiment" over the well-being of children.

[Muskie]

I have read the pertinent parts of the Freeh report and it is more opinion and assumption than fact. The biggest opinion contained in the report which has now been recognized as fact is that Paterno covered up for Sandusky for about 15 years to protect the football program. While that claim may or may not be true, there are no facts contained in the report other than speculation to support that claim.

I've read the whole thing. It somewhat reminds me of the Warren Report. I agree with your assessment 87.

[bobbiemcgee]

[B]
The Joe Paterno I knew in the early '80s was not the same man who facilitated Jerry Sandusky's rape of young boys..(

Very true. He was like a "Father" figure, but even that sounds sick now. Very sad, tragic, horrific. disgusting affair. Hope these kids can get to some sense of normalcy someday. God Bless.

[LA Muskie]

I have read the pertinent parts of the Freeh report and it is more opinion and assumption than fact. The biggest opinion contained in the report which has now been recognized as fact is that Paterno covered up for Sandusky for about 15 years to protect the football program. While that claim may or may not be true, there are no facts contained in the report other than speculation to support that claim.

One person's "opinions" and "assumptions of fact" are another person's "conclusions." PSU asked former FBI agent, AUSA, US District Court Judge (Ret.) and FBI Director, the Honorable Louis J. Freeh, to conduct an investigation and draw conclusions based on that investigation. By all reports, it was a detailed investigation (although not comprehensive, given the lack of subpoena power and the likely assertion of 5th Amendment privileges by some). That is not materially different than a jury listening to the evidence and drawing its own conclusions in reaching a verdict (although admittedly the investigation was not conducted with the same due process constraints). Ultimate facts are rarely black and white. Evidence often is disputed and/or contradicted. Someone ultimately has to decide what happened in those instances. Sometimes it's a jury. Sometimes a judge. Freeh's background indicates he is uniquely qualified to weigh the facts (and the credibility of witnesses) in drawing conclusions.

The reasons the NCAA was able to substitute the Freeh Report are that (1) it was commissioned PSU itself and more importantly (2) PSU reportedly consented to having it used against them in an effort to end this saga and begin moving on (rightly concluding that no good comes of delaying the inevitable and keeping the past in the press).

[bleedXblue]

One person's "opinions" and "assumptions of fact" are another person's "conclusions." PSU asked former FBI agent, AUSA, US District Court Judge (Ret.) and FBI Director, the Honorable Louis J. Freeh, to conduct an investigation and draw conclusions based on that investigation. By all reports, it was a detailed investigation (although not comprehensive, given the lack of subpoena power and the likely assertion of 5th Amendment privileges by some). That is not materially different than a jury listening to the evidence and drawing its own conclusions in reaching a verdict (although admittedly the investigation was not conducted with the same due process constraints). Ultimate facts are rarely black and white. Evidence often is disputed and/or contradicted. Someone ultimately has to decide what happened in those instances. Sometimes it's a jury. Sometimes a judge. Freeh's background indicates he is uniquely qualified to weigh the facts (and the credibility of witnesses) in drawing conclusions.

The reasons the NCAA was able to substitute the Freeh Report are that (1) it was commissioned PSU itself and more importantly (2) PSU reportedly consented to having it used against them in an effort to end this saga and begin moving on (rightly concluding that no good comes of delaying the inevitable and keeping the past in the press).

This is all really, really simple to me.

Paterno knew of the allegations and personal accounts from his own coaching staff. He should have been much more involved in bringing these accusations to the proper authorities to investigate. Instead, he spoke about them with his AD and President and allowed them to cover this thing up.

I didn't read the report, but I've not heard anything about Paterno asking questions or following up with his superiors about the matter in the months following.

When he saw Sandusky on campus with other young boys after the McQuery incident, did he question anyone ?

Did he contact Sandusky personally and discuss any of this with him?

From all accounts Paterno fell woefully short of his obligation as a decent human being to do what he could to protect innocent children.

Shame on Paterno.

[blueblob06]

So you are refusing to read the primary source because, in the opinion of "analysts", the Freeh report is itself opinion. That makes no sense whatsoever.



"Joe" is the real victim here, of course. Who cares what that pious, narcissistic asshole had to say? His actions (or lack thereof) said it all. He valued his precious program and his sanctimonious "Grand Experiment" over the well-being of children.

I'm said I probably won't read it because it's made up of opinions and assumptions. I don't think an "investigation report" should be made up of opinions and assumptions, just facts that were collected.

I never said Joe is the victim. I just saying it's BS that Penn St shut him up and his press conference when he was trying to speak about it.

[Snipe]

I have read the pertinent parts of the Freeh report and it is more opinion and assumption than fact. The biggest opinion contained in the report which has now been recognized as fact is that Paterno covered up for Sandusky for about 15 years to protect the football program. While that claim may or may not be true, there are no facts contained in the report other than speculation to support that claim.


I've read the whole thing. It somewhat reminds me of the Warren Report. I agree with your assessment 87.

I haven't read the report but I will trust in your judgements.

I would note that Joe Paterno is not around to defend himself, which makes him a convenient scapegoat. Dead men tell no tales.

Also, the dynamics of the crime make it hard for reasonable neutral people to jump in to his defense. Who wants to be on the side of young boys being homosexually raped?

Why fight it when we can all feel good by denouncing Paterno and putting Penn State and Big Football to the whipping post? Being a contrarian on this issue can cost you social status points. Many of the social arguments that we have are not about the truth but status. We want to send signals that we are on "the right" side. Reality tends to be more complicated.

[DC Muskie]

The guys at Sports Illustrated need to have their heads examined.

They, along with all the hero worshipers at Penn State simply can't understand why the NCAA striped scholarships and banned them from bowl games.

I am simply baffled.

Enter this guy (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/24/michael-tomasky-more-punishment-for-penn-state-please.html)...

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

I am not kidding when I say that sports journalism is utter shit. It is populated with people who think they are Pulitzer Prize winners in the making. When all they do is write about where LeBron James decides to play basketball or whether or not hockey will settle their collective bargaining agreement.

The Penn State story is one of epic proportions. A vast football Empire, and I use the word "Empire" with a capital E, overtook the president's office and the entire university and allowed a pedophile to run rampant.

And now we have guys like this (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/michael_rosenberg/07/23/penn-state-ncaa-sanctions-mark-emmert/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a2)...and this (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/stewart_mandel/07/23/penn-state-ncaa-sanctions/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a1)...

Writers who are so misguided that it looks like Kyle from Scranton PSU Class of 1983 wrote it.

How hard is it to comprehend that the NCAA is crippling their winning ways temporarily? That's the point...that winning created this mess. Winning is always at the center of any problems that occur in college athletics.

Winning allowed for this to happen. So no Outback Bowls for you guys for the next four years. Sorry.

[DC Muskie]

I haven't read the report but I will trust in your judgements.

I would note that Joe Paterno is not around to defend himself, which makes him a convenient scapegoat. Dead men tell no tales.

Also, the dynamics of the crime make it hard for reasonable neutral people to jump in to his defense. Who wants to be on the side of young boys being homosexually raped?

Why fight it when we can all feel good by denouncing Paterno and putting Penn State and Big Football to the whipping post? Being a contrarian on this issue can cost you social status points. Many of the social arguments that we have are not about the truth but status. We want to send signals that we are on "the right" side. Reality tends to be more complicated.

For someone who thinks homeless people should be put into institutions as a simple cut and dry solution, you think the dynamics of a football coach simply telling an assistant coach to sop showering with boys in his locker room is something that is more complicated?

Okay then.

[Snipe]

I don't think homelessness is simple nor cut and dry, and I think that is an argument for another thread.

I was agreeing with other posters. I haven't read the report. I can't debate the "facts", "opinions" or lack thereof. I doubt I will read it either. I did want to note that JoPa didn't get to have his say or defend himself. The University President knew about the allegations, no? Were not the police notified? JoPa wasn't involved in the acts, nor was he a witness, nor does he have police powers, nor is he a judge. It does appear that he reported it up the chain of command.

I do feel that the homosexual rape of young boys is abhorrent, and that we should all do more to help combat it.

[DC Muskie]

I did want to note that JoPa didn't get to have his say or defend himself.

Actually he did. Here. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/joe-paternos-first-interview-since-the-penn-state-sandusky-scandal/2012/01/13/gIQA08e4yP_story.html)

If you don't want to read it, I'll summarize.

He basically said he didn't know. He wished he had done more, but he didn't know.

Then the Freeh Report came out which said that in fact he did.

So now he is this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/joe-paterno-at-the-end-showed-more-interest-in-his-legacy-than-sanduskys-victims/2012/07/12/gJQAMUX9fW_story.html).



I do feel that the homosexual rape of young boys is abhorrent, and that we should all do more to help combat it.

I think the first step is for you to recognize that silence by people in power is also abhorrent and we should do more to help combat that as well.

[DC Muskie]

I never said Joe is the victim. I just saying it's BS that Penn St shut him up and his press conference when he was trying to speak about it.

Here's my question about this "press conference" that Paterno wasn't allowed to have.

Why didn't he have one after PSU canned him?

He already negotiated his contract and the board ended up paying him his money when he and his family saw the train coming down the tracks.

You think after he was fired, Joe would have called a press conference immediately at his home.

But he didn't. If what he needed to say as coach was muted by PSU, why did he only do 1 interview before he passed away?

[DC Muskie]

Did he contact Sandusky personally and discuss any of this with him?

He did talk to Sandusky about Jerry's retirement and what PSU would and would not give him. There seems to be no evidence that Paterno sat down and spoke to Jerry about showering with boys. Other than telling him not to do it anymore. Of course Jerry continued to do it.

Or when someone told him that they saw Jerry ass pounding a kid in the locker room, Joe didn't think he should have spoken to Jerry.

He can speak to him about his retirement. Ass pounding boys in the locker room shower? Well ole Joe doesn't know anything about "Man and Rape." So no conversation there.

[xubrew]

The actions taken by the NCAA does nothing for the victims. I'm not saying the NCAA doesn't have a role. I'm not saying they shouldn't have done it. I'm saying that if this case is really about the victims, then the NCAA's actions are irrelevant.

To quote Law and Order....


"In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by three seperate yet equally important groups: the police, who investigate crime; the district attourneys, who prosecute the offenders; and the NCAA, who administer postseason bans and regulate scholarships. These are their stories."

Do the victims give a shit if Penn State is fined $60 million by the NCAA?? None of the money is going to them. I feel they deserve at least that much in civil trials, and hope they get it once this is all over, but the NCAA fining Penn State doesn't do anything to directly help the victims.

Do the victims give a shit about Penn State getting a bowl ban?? Probably not.

Do the victims give a shit about scholarship reduction?? Probably not.

Do the victims give a shit about putting the people responsible for this in prison?? Probably so. Nothing the NCAA is doing has any impact on that, though.

Do the victims give a shit about collecting damages from Penn State?? Probably so. But, again, nothing the NCAA is doing is going toward accomplishing that.


So, as far as the victims are concerned, I don't think there is anything the NCAA could do that would really matter to them. Yet, the NCAA's actions are the only thing that most of the public really seem to care about.

[GoMuskies]

Do the victims give a shit if Penn State is fined $60 million by the NCAA?? None of the money is going to them.

Maybe not them personally, but it's going to their "cause".

And I'm pretty sure the NCAA is aiming to prevent future victims by making it damn clear to universities that this bullshit will not be tolerated. They'll come take your golden goose, so don't try to protect it by hiding pedophilia.

[boozehound]

Maybe not them personally, but it's going to their "cause".

And I'm pretty sure the NCAA is aiming to prevent future victims by making it damn clear to universities that this bullshit will not be tolerated. They'll come take your golden goose, so don't try to protect it by hiding pedophilia.

I had this same argument with my wife last night. She thinks it isn't the NCAA's job to punish them. I disagree. I think everybody should punish them so harshly that no University would ever think of covering something like the up ever again.

[DC Muskie]

The actions taken by the NCAA does nothing for the victims. I'm not saying the NCAA doesn't have a role. I'm not saying they shouldn't have done it. I'm saying that if this case is really about the victims, then the NCAA's actions are irrelevant.

To quote Law and Order....



Do the victims give a shit if Penn State is fined $60 million by the NCAA?? None of the money is going to them. I feel they deserve at least that much in civil trials, and hope they get it once this is all over, but the NCAA fining Penn State doesn't do anything to directly help the victims.

Do the victims give a shit about Penn State getting a bowl ban?? Probably not.

Do the victims give a shit about scholarship reduction?? Probably not.

Do the victims give a shit about putting the people responsible for this in prison?? Probably so. Nothing the NCAA is doing has any impact on that, though.

Do the victims give a shit about collecting damages from Penn State?? Probably so. But, again, nothing the NCAA is doing is going toward accomplishing that.


So, as far as the victims are concerned, I don't think there is anything the NCAA could do that would really matter to them. Yet, the NCAA's actions are the only thing that most of the public really seem to care about.

Good grief.

they are not doing this to make the victims feel better brew. Don't you get that?

If this isn't an example of "lack of institutional control" then I don't know what is.

How hard is it to understand that winning built this? People like Joe Paterno wanted to make sure winning would continue. Jerry Sandusky was able to operate within these circumstances.

The NCAA wants Penn State to understand...

You can't continue to love winning football games when you allowed a pedophile to ass pound boys in your locker room.

Quit acting like the football program is somehow being victimized here. Because that is what you are arguing. The football program shouldn't be punished because nothing helps the victims. Please the NCAA is trying to tell people, keeping quiet for ass pounding boys in your locker room means no Outback Bowl for you.

[LA Muskie]

I had this same argument with my wife last night. She thinks it isn't the NCAA's job to punish them. I disagree. I think everybody should punish them so harshly that no University would ever think of covering something like the up ever again.

I agree. I think this decision is all about checks and balances -- or, in NCAA parlance "institutional control". The NCAA has long recognized that left to their own devices, players, coaches, programs, and athletic departments may go outside the lines to achieve success on the field. The NCAA expects the university -- in particular its non-athletic officers -- to control and curtail them. The NCAA has also long promoted a culture of self-policing and self-reporting, if for no other reason than that it does not have the resources to do all of that on its own.

The punishment was intended to demonstrate that the buck stops at the university and its highest officers (presidents, chancellors, etc.), and that if they abdicate that role -- indeed, actively cover it up to avoid harm to the "program" -- then that is among the most egregious violations.

This wasn't a garden variety NCAA violation case (we all knew that). It was much more because it went straight to the heart of how the NCAA is structured and how institutions are supposed to regulate themselves. It was a violation by those who are supposed to be keeping an eye on things. It's the equivalent of a bad cop on the take.

[Snipe]

I agree that the NCAA should punish Penn State and that the heads of universities should be accountable. Joe Paterno was not a witness or a participant to these events, he went up the chain of command and that chain of command should be held accountable. Paterno was 74 years old in 2001 when allegations surfaced by an assistant coach. He went up the chain of command. In 1998, they had other allegations, and the police investigated along with wire taps. The police concluded their investigation without charges. Is that Paterno's fault? They took away his victories in 1998.

In 2001, Sandusky was two years removed from even working for Paterno. He was no longer one of his charges. Paterno was not a party to or a witness to the events, but he did report them up the chain of command. Now we all lay blame to dead man that was 74 at the time whose actual job description was "football coach".

It is a lynch mob mentality.

[LA Muskie]

I agree that the NCAA should punish Penn State and that the heads of universities should be accountable. Joe Paterno was not a witness or a participant to these events, he went up the chain of command and that chain of command should be held accountable. Paterno was 74 years old in 2001 when allegations surfaced by an assistant coach. He went up the chain of command. In 1998, they had other allegations, and the police investigated along with wire taps. The police concluded their investigation without charges. Is that Paterno's fault? They took away his victories in 1998.

In 2001, Sandusky was two years removed from even working for Paterno. He was no longer one of his charges. Paterno was not a party to or a witness to the events, but he did report them up the chain of command. Now we all lay blame to dead man that was 74 at the time whose actual job description was "football coach".

It is a lynch mob mentality.

The question for me is what was the chain of command? From the emails, it seems that Paterno was at the top. He didn't have the title, but he called the shots. Everyone deferred to him, and he knew it. He accepted that role (many would say he demanded it). The university wanted him to retire in...what...2004? The board sent several directors to his house to ask him to resign. He didn't want to go. Guess who won that "debate"?

[xubrew]

Good grief.

they are not doing this to make the victims feel better brew. Don't you get that?

If this isn't an example of "lack of institutional control" then I don't know what is.

How hard is it to understand that winning built this? People like Joe Paterno wanted to make sure winning would continue. Jerry Sandusky was able to operate within these circumstances.

The NCAA wants Penn State to understand...

You can't continue to love winning football games when you allowed a pedophile to ass pound boys in your locker room.

Quit acting like the football program is somehow being victimized here. Because that is what you are arguing. The football program shouldn't be punished because nothing helps the victims. Please the NCAA is trying to tell people, keeping quiet for ass pounding boys in your locker room means no Outback Bowl for you.

I completely understand that the NCAA isn't donig this to make the victims feel better. Do you get that I get that??

How am I acting like the football program is being victimized?? That's not my point at all. I even said that it is not my feeling that the NCAA shouldn't have done this.

On the contraray, I'm saying that this isn't enough. I'm saying that people that are satisfied with this should not be. Earlier you talked about people needing to put sports in its proper place. Well, simply being satisfied with and only caring about what the NCAA is doing is not putting sports in its proper place. It's a secondary concern. It is no more relevant than any sanctions (if any) the AAU might pass down on Penn State.

The NCAA did not do a damn thing to help the victims. That's what I'm saying. There is nothing they could have done to help the victims. That's why I don't feel that whatever the NCAA did or did not decide to do was really all that important. Saying that they didn't do shit to help the victims is NOT the same thing as saying the NCAA shouldn't have done it.

I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is that I'm saying that you do not agree with here.

[LA Muskie]

I got what you were saying, Brew, and I agree.

The NCAA isn't empowered to help the victims, but there are other processes. In addition to losing $60 mil, the university is looking at myriad lawsuits. Some will be legitimate. Others will be opportunistic. In the end, the $60 mil fine will pale in comparison to the settlement and litigation costs -- which, in light of the Freeh report and other evidence likely to come out, probably will not be covered by insurance.

Will money "help" the victims? Will lifelong therapy paid for by PSU "help" the victims? Will convictions and imprisonment of Sandusky and the PSU officials who covered this up "help" the victims? All will probably help to varying degrees, but I really don't think there is any way to make those boys/men and their families whole, absent the invention of a time machine.

[DC Muskie]

I agree that the NCAA should punish Penn State and that the heads of universities should be accountable. Joe Paterno was not a witness or a participant to these events, he went up the chain of command and that chain of command should be held accountable. Paterno was 74 years old in 2001 when allegations surfaced by an assistant coach. He went up the chain of command. In 1998, they had other allegations, and the police investigated along with wire taps. The police concluded their investigation without charges. Is that Paterno's fault? They took away his victories in 1998.

In 2001, Sandusky was two years removed from even working for Paterno. He was no longer one of his charges. Paterno was not a party to or a witness to the events, but he did report them up the chain of command. Now we all lay blame to dead man that was 74 at the time whose actual job description was "football coach".

It is a lynch mob mentality.

Who let Franco Harris on this board?

Just to summarize again what Franco Harris is saying here...

Joe Paterno can talk to Jerry Sandusky about benefits Jerry will receive when he retires, but can't talk to Jerry about his ass pounding little boys ways. One of those benefits was using the locker rooms at Penn State. Which in turn Jerry used to ass pound little boys. But since Jerry had retired, Paterno couldn't do anything. Paterno didn't want to. Paterno doesn't know anything about "man and rape." Sandusky received the benefit of using the locker room. Paterno I am sure asked up the chain of command for that to happen. Proper procedure I am certain was used. If Jerry using that benefit to ass pound little boys, Paterno's supervisors were the ones that needed to stop him. Paterno is a "football coach" not "Little Boy Ass Protector."

Joe Paterno built the Empire but his is not the Emperor. Not when it comes to ass pounding boys in showers. Nope. Paterno knows nothing about a "man and rape." He was 74 years old for Christ sakes! There were statues being made of him, but he had no power. What do you want him to do, find out about the boy who had his ass pounded by Sandusky in 2001? His job is to build the Empire, not to make sure little boys were protected from ass pounding.

[DC Muskie]

I completely understand that the NCAA isn't donig this to make the victims feel better. Do you get that I get that??

How am I acting like the football program is being victimized?? That's not my point at all. I even said that it is not my feeling that the NCAA shouldn't have done this.

On the contraray, I'm saying that this isn't enough. I'm saying that people that are satisfied with this should not be. Earlier you talked about people needing to put sports in its proper place. Well, simply being satisfied with and only caring about what the NCAA is doing is not putting sports in its proper place. It's a secondary concern. It is no more relevant than any sanctions (if any) the AAU might pass down on Penn State.

The NCAA did not do a damn thing to help the victims. That's what I'm saying. There is nothing they could have done to help the victims. That's why I don't feel that whatever the NCAA did or did not decide to do was really all that important. Saying that they didn't do shit to help the victims is NOT the same thing as saying the NCAA shouldn't have done it.

I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is that I'm saying that you do not agree with here.


Well...then...LET"S GET FIRED ABOUT IT! Damn it Brew, you don't seem more into to be fired up about it as us Lynch Mob Members are.

That's all I got. I must have misread it somehow.

[xubrew]

When I see those lynch mobs you're talking about, I think about how Penn State will struggle to put together a team that would be good enough to make the FCS playoffs if they played in the FCS. Then I think about how they're going to be playing in the Big Ten, and how badly they're going to lose. They have guarantee games on the schedule, and those have suddenly become difficult games to win.

When I think about that, seeing those lynch mobs makes me smile.

[blueblob06]

Here's my question about this "press conference" that Paterno wasn't allowed to have.

Why didn't he have one after PSU canned him?

He already negotiated his contract and the board ended up paying him his money when he and his family saw the train coming down the tracks.

You think after he was fired, Joe would have called a press conference immediately at his home.

But he didn't. If what he needed to say as coach was muted by PSU, why did he only do 1 interview before he passed away?

No idea. Wish I knew. He said in that interview that he would wait for things to die down a bit. Shortly after, he was quite sick and never recovered.

[Muskied]

My 2cents.

Paterno's role wasn't supposed to be as emperor...it wasn't football coach...it was "human being". Who gives a shit about chain of command or retirement status or role at the university.

If I'm a parent of a victim, Here is my perspective:

I am completely pissed off nothing was done, and they had full knowledge. I don't care about protocol. It's my son's life we're talking about, do your job as a human being.

For that reason, I would care about the NCAA penalty. What that did is remove any legacy. Joe Paterno should have a legacy as a piece of crap who enabled my child's torture, nothing more. The only thing he or Penn State had going for them was that their status and ability to succeed were intact, allowing them to still have a different legacy. The NCAA tore that down. They reduced their status which means the only legacy they have left is the proper one.

If you're a current student or player...transfer. If you're a fan, root for some one else. I don't care how this effects you because you have choices you can make. Was that the NCAA's proper role? maybe not...but I support it, agree with it, and anyone who doesn't can go to hell with Paterno.

That's what my perspective would be.

[Snipe]

The police were informed in 1998. They didn't do anything. We know now that Sandusky is guilty, but the police didn't have enough to charge him with anything nor did any public offical issue any warnings.

And what warnings could they have issued that would have protected themselves from liability? If you call the guy a child molester after the police dropped the investigation, what do you do when he sues you for defamation?

Paterno didn't witness any of these events. He didn't partake in any of these events. If the police would have arrested him back in 1998 none of this scandal would have happened. The police didn't do that. They should have, because hindsight is 20/20, but at the time they decided not too. We let a lot of guilty people go free because of the presumption of innocence and the lack of evidence. Mostly we consider that a good thing.

After that he left the coaching staff, and Paterno was not his boss. In 2001, Paterno was 74 years old. Lots of failure out there to be spread around, and it seems like Paterno is getting more than his fair share of it.

Some people witnessed these events. I would argue that they didn't do enough, because they knew it was happening. To other people who they told, that information was second hand information.

[bleedXblue]

The police were informed in 1998. They didn't do anything. We know now that Sandusky is guilty, but the police didn't have enough to charge him with anything nor did any public offical issue any warnings.

And what warnings could they have issued that would have protected themselves from liability? If you call the guy a child molester after the police dropped the investigation, what do you do when he sues you for defamation?

Paterno didn't witness any of these events. He didn't partake in any of these events. If the police would have arrested him back in 1998 none of this scandal would have happened. The police didn't do that. They should have, because hindsight is 20/20, but at the time they decided not too. We let a lot of guilty people go free because of the presumption of innocence and the lack of evidence. Mostly we consider that a good thing.

After that he left the coaching staff, and Paterno was not his boss. In 2001, Paterno was 74 years old. Lots of failure out there to be spread around, and it seems like Paterno is getting more than his fair share of it.

Some people witnessed these events. I would argue that they didn't do enough, because they knew it was happening. To other people who they told, that information was second hand information.

When Paterno saw him on campus with young men after 1998-1999 knowing what he knew, he and the university should have done something about it. They should have banned him from campus and revoked any privlidges. He was retired and no longer an employee. Just so many simple and easy things should have happened.

What infomration was shared with police ? Did the police partake in the cover up ? Some of this we will never know.

I agree Paterno is taking it on the chin right now, but he was the guy. He was the leader. He was the larger than life figure in Happy Valley. With all of that comes responsibility to do the right thing. To exhaust all avenues to get to the truth. To do whatever was in his power to protect the innocent children. I don't think that happened to the degree that most people feel like he did enough.

[DC Muskie]

In 2001, Sandusky was two years removed from even working for Paterno. He was no longer one of his charges. Paterno was not a party to or a witness to the events, but he did report them up the chain of command. Now we all lay blame to dead man that was 74 at the time whose actual job description was "football coach".


After that he left the coaching staff, and Paterno was not his boss. In 2001, Paterno was 74 years old. Lots of failure out there to be spread around, and it seems like Paterno is getting more than his fair share of it.

Some people witnessed these events. I would argue that they didn't do enough, because they knew it was happening. To other people who they told, that information was second hand information.

What does the fact it was 2001 and Paterno being 74 have anything to do with boy ass pounding? You keep bringing this up as some sort of irrefutable facts to Paterno's innocence or something.

I mean I know you made that miracle catch against the Raiders, but come on man. I think the janitors and that grad assistant are guilty too. You want to rail against them, have have it Franco, but I'm more interested in the guy who built the Empire but somehow wasn't the Emperor.

You certainly can't condemn janitors for not doing more within the Empire while claiming the Emperor basically did the same thing. Who runs the Empire Franco? Janitors or Joe?

Joe died knowing he was the all time winner in college football. He died knowing there was a statue of him right outside the Coliseum he had built. He died knowing his family will be well taken care of because of the financial contract he got from Penn State during the middle of the investigations.

Joe Paterno I'm sure is resting in peace. Since you know Franco, he knows nothing of "man and rape."

[DC Muskie]

The police were informed in 1998. They didn't do anything. We know now that Sandusky is guilty, but the police didn't have enough to charge him with anything nor did any public offical issue any warnings.

And what warnings could they have issued that would have protected themselves from liability? If you call the guy a child molester after the police dropped the investigation, what do you do when he sues you for defamation?

Paterno didn't witness any of these events. He didn't partake in any of these events. If the police would have arrested him back in 1998 none of this scandal would have happened. The police didn't do that. They should have, because hindsight is 20/20, but at the time they decided not too. We let a lot of guilty people go free because of the presumption of innocence and the lack of evidence. Mostly we consider that a good thing.

After that he left the coaching staff, and Paterno was not his boss. In 2001, Paterno was 74 years old. Lots of failure out there to be spread around, and it seems like Paterno is getting more than his fair share of it.

Some people witnessed these events. I would argue that they didn't do enough, because they knew it was happening. To other people who they told, that information was second hand information.

Also Franco, Joe even admits he should have done more.

The consequence?

Joe doesn't get to be the coach who holds the all time record in wins. I imagine that is better than having to be someone who had his ass pounded in the shower by a guy who worked for the guy who went on to become the coach who holds the all time record in wins.

[paulxu]

I admit to some unease when the punishment (for non-football related violations) extends to those such as players in the past who were in no way connected to the criminal acts.

But I did like the Philadelphia rule today that put the monsignor away for covering up pedophilia, and essentially enabling it to continue by moving priests around instead of reporting it to the authorities. Just like Jo Pa, the bishop who he tried to blame (I was following orders) is also dead.

Anybody who colludes in this crap should be put away. Period.

[DC Muskie]

I admit to some unease when the punishment (for non-football related violations) extends to those such as players in the past who were in no way connected to the criminal acts.

They will be just fine.

[joebba]

The police were informed in 1998. They didn't do anything. We know now that Sandusky is guilty, but the police didn't have enough to charge him with anything nor did any public offical issue any warnings.

And what warnings could they have issued that would have protected themselves from liability? If you call the guy a child molester after the police dropped the investigation, what do you do when he sues you for defamation?

Paterno didn't witness any of these events. He didn't partake in any of these events. If the police would have arrested him back in 1998 none of this scandal would have happened. The police didn't do that. They should have, because hindsight is 20/20, but at the time they decided not too. We let a lot of guilty people go free because of the presumption of innocence and the lack of evidence. Mostly we consider that a good thing.

After that he left the coaching staff, and Paterno was not his boss. In 2001, Paterno was 74 years old. Lots of failure out there to be spread around, and it seems like Paterno is getting more than his fair share of it.

Some people witnessed these events. I would argue that they didn't do enough, because they knew it was happening. To other people who they told, that information was second hand information.

I have thought many of the same things. After reviewing the Freeh report even though it seems a bit opinionated rather than totally factual, there is enough there to point to Paterno and others who knew enough to be in the position that they should have felt compelled to do more to investigate the abuse allegations more vigorously. Do I feel Paterno was at his core an evil man? No, but he was very off the mark on the Sandusky thing. Paterno would be facing criminal charges if he were alive. Did the NCAA go overbooard? Possibly, but it the end this scandal is so heinous, I think they did the right thing.

I am still a bit puzzled why people are not throwing more outrage to the janitors who claim to have witnessed abuse firsthand but did not report it.

[Snipe]

I was thinking about the 60 million. Where is it going to go, to the NCAA? Is it earmarked for anything?

If I was a taxpayer in PA, I am not sure I would want to pay 60 million in taxes so that the State U could give it to the NCAA. That is quite a fine, and I heard tonight on the news that Moodys is thinking of downgrading Penn State. The students could end up suffering through program cutbacks and increased tuition, and I would bet the taxpayers will surely suffer. That is not really getting at the victim, but creating more victims. This is a public university.

Maybe I am off on this. Maybe they needed a large number like that to show other schools. Some schools would go bankrupt. Think about what 60 million in infrastructure can do. And at the same time you hit them with a 60 million bill, you do your best to cripple their main revenue stream.

If you are a PSU alum, and you going to donate money so that they can give your money to the NCAA?

And if 60 million is appropriate, what is the limit? Could they go 70 or 80 million? Where does it end?

Can a State University declare bankruptcy? Are his victims going to get 60 million? Could the federal and state governments fine them as well? I would think at some point they could declare bankruptcy and write off all the debt. Cities go bankrupt, why not Universities? You could emerge from bankruptcy debt free.

I just wonder if the NCAA is going to line their pockets. If those guys get $60 million to deposit, they will find a way to spend it. Maybe they have already earmarked it for diversity or transgendered rights. I don't know.

[UCGRAD4X]

I was thinking about the 60 million. Where is it going to go, to the NCAA? Is it earmarked for anything?

If I was a taxpayer in PA, I am not sure I would want to pay 60 million in taxes so that the State U could give it to the NCAA. That is quite a fine, and I heard tonight on the news that Moodys is thinking of downgrading Penn State. The students could end up suffering through program cutbacks and increased tuition, and I would bet the taxpayers will surely suffer. That is not really getting at the victim, but creating more victims. This is a public university.

Maybe I am off on this. Maybe they needed a large number like that to show other schools. Some schools would go bankrupt. Think about what 60 million in infrastructure can do. And at the same time you hit them with a 60 million bill, you do your best to cripple their main revenue stream.

If you are a PSU alum, and you going to donate money so that they can give your money to the NCAA?

And if 60 million is appropriate, what is the limit? Could they go 70 or 80 million? Where does it end?

Can a State University declare bankruptcy? Are his victims going to get 60 million? Could the federal and state governments fine them as well? I would think at some point they could declare bankruptcy and write off all the debt. Cities go bankrupt, why not Universities? You could emerge from bankruptcy debt free.

I just wonder if the NCAA is going to line their pockets. If those guys get $60 million to deposit, they will find a way to spend it. Maybe they have already earmarked it for diversity or transgendered rights. I don't know.

I think I read somewhere that it is going toward training, seminars or programs on child sexual abuse and such at the University or universities in general.

[DC Muskie]

No state money will be used.

$73 million (combined total of NCAA & BIG 10) will come from athletic reverses and will be paid over five years.

[DC Muskie]

This is why sports is stupid:

"No sanction, no politician is ever going to take away what we've got here," Mauti said. "None of that's ever going to tear us apart. Right now all we can do is put our heads down, and we're just going to work. That's all we can do. We're going to fight for Penn State, fight for each other, because this is what Penn State's about - fighting through adversity."

Okay buddy.

For some reason PSU people need to have this "rah,rah" mentality.

We're going to get through this. Grrrrrrrr...
We're going to put our heads down and get to work. Grrrrrr...
We are going to fight! Grrrrr...

Anybody over there stepping back and possibly reflecting that maybe, just maybe, football isn't the most important thing to concentrate and worry about? Not just right now, but ever?

[GoMuskies]

Well, Mauti is a football player at Penn State. Of course the players on the football team are going to feel that way. They've essentially given four years of their life to the program.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

DC, you are gonna like this quote

http://gothamist.com/2012/07/24/penn_state_alum_on_ncaa_punishment.php


The NCAA's punishment of Penn State, over the school's inaction and coverup of the Jerry Sandusky child sex abuse scandal, has prompted a lot of hyperbolic reactions from Penn State alumni and fans. But this one might take the cake: Tom Price, alum and loyal fan, told WNEP,

"I just can’t put my arms around it, it’s, to me, it was our 9/11 today. I just saw planes crashing into towers."

Here are some other gems from the twitterverse:

"If it wasn't for the media, all the #psu stuff could've fixed itself. #tiredofhearingaboutit"

"Who got it worse? Sandusky's victims or the 13 years of entirely unrelated athletes and student body of Penn State? #psu #pennstate #ncaa"

"Is it really worth ruining the lives of so many others for the sake of 10 victims? #psu #pennstae #joepa #wearepennstate"

"Honestly fuck the NCAA, that punishment was too severe and they got raped more than the kids did #ironic #PSU"

"Why the hell are students getting punished? This is one of the most fucked up things I've ever heard. #psu"

"The NCAA should fine themselves because they just raped about 200,000 people #PSU"

"Taking away 111 of paternos wins were rediculous especially when sandusky stopped coaching in 1999. He still holds the record #joke #psu"

"#NCAAGOTTHISWRONG TO ME THIS IS THE WORST THING THE NCAA COULD HAVE DONE TO #PSU YES WHAT HAPPENED TO THE VICTAMS WAS HORRABLE BUT WHY...."

"We were. We are. We always will be. September 1: Penn state vs. the world #PSU"

"No respect for Penn State. They might as well dig up JoePa's grave and shit on it cause that's pretty much what they're doing to his legacy."

"Take away his statue and take away his wins, one mistake will never change the way we all think about JoePa #WeAreAndAlwaysWillBe"

"Let's rip a dead legend in the media, come on now, keep it private #realclassy #PSU #disgusted"

"Never been more proud to be a penn state fan #PSU #NittanyLionPride"


http://gothamist.com/2012/07/23/bitter_reactions_to_ncaas_punitive.php

[DC Muskie]

Well, Mauti is a football player at Penn State. Of course the players on the football team are going to feel that way. They've essentially given four years of their life to the program.

The football coach said the same thing.

That's my problem. Take it down a notch. Nobody cares you feel slighted and you had the privilege of playing division one college football.

It would be nice if someone over there who played football would show a little more perspective in how to move forward. Save the "rah rah" stuff for when you are about to play.

[DC Muskie]

DC, you are gonna like this quote

http://gothamist.com/2012/07/24/penn_state_alum_on_ncaa_punishment.php

Yeah I saw that. Just getting to the point where it's just getting sad. So many people are looking at this and are upset that the NCAA ruled on something it never has before, and Joe Paterno's wins are something that need to be preserved no matter what...

I'd happily give up Xavier basketball if it meant kids didn't get raped.

I'm really getting disgusted by the responses of these idiots. It's football. You get fewer talented players and no trips to Orlando Florida for four years.

Get over it.

[DC Muskie]

Here's another example of what I am talking about...

This is from Pat Chambers:

"Football has carried this university for years," said the Nittany Lions men's basketball coach. "Maybe we can help football for once."

Football has carried this university for years.

There is just something wrong with that sentiment.

[GoMuskies]

Basketball in a lot of ways has carried Xavier University for years.

[XUglow]

"Why the hell are students getting punished? This is one of the most fucked up things I've ever heard. #psu"


- The university's football program is getting punished. If the NCAA could somehow remove all credit hours earned at PSU between 1998 and 2012, that would have punished the students. That would be f'ed up. Hey, but thanks for pointing out that universities have students.

[Snipe]

No state money will be used.

$73 million (combined total of NCAA & BIG 10) will come from athletic reverses and will be paid over five years.


I assume you mean reserves. And if a state school has $73 million dollars in athletic reserves, newsflash, that is state money. It sounds like $73 million of state money will be used.

[paulxu]

Maybe they are funds from donors like AFO?

[LA Muskie]

I assume you mean reserves. And if a state school has $73 million dollars in athletic reserves, newsflash, that is state money. It sounds like $73 million of state money will be used.
Not sure that's true at PSU (or any "state" universities) anymore. Didn't I read that the Penn State University (of which Penn State University Park -- PSU -- is a campus) is considering conversion to private status because so little of its operating funds are provided by the state?

[DC Muskie]

I assume you mean reserves. And if a state school has $73 million dollars in athletic reserves, newsflash, that is state money. It sounds like $73 million of state money will be used.

Newsflash it's not. Not sure where you get the idea that it is.

[Snipe]

I think I read somewhere that it is going toward training, seminars or programs on child sexual abuse and such at the University or universities in general.

Is the NCAA accountable? Do they have to answer to Freedom of Information requests? If I want details of how every dime is spent, am I allowed to access that information? Who watches the watchdog? Has the NCAA ever been investigated? Yeah, I know they are beyond reproach...

They are a quasi-governmental authority and they are a behemoth. If they can blame all of Penn State and demand 60 million dollars, why stop the chain there. Can the Federal Government say the NCAA should have done more to safeguard children, and fine the NCAA $60 million dollars, and tell Penn State to send the checks directly?

The NCAA is taking $60 million. The Big Ten is chipping in Penn States bowl revenue share, which is 13 million. I don't know if it is just one year. Moodys may downgrade their 1 billion of debt. For every 1% higher interest rate they would face an additional $10 million in interest expense a year. They have lost television revenue and sponsors, and none of that includes the penalties that the victims will get.

It is an enormous sum of money.

[XUglow]

I assume you mean reserves. And if a state school has $73 million dollars in athletic reserves, newsflash, that is state money. It sounds like $73 million of state money will be used.

Not usually. Most of the finances are set up to keep much of the money out of state hands. By getting season tickets at MSU and Ole Miss, I am a "member" of their private booster clubs. In both cases I have to write one check to the university and one check to the booster club. The coaches, for example, get paid from 2 places: one check from the state and one check from the booster club. The state pay is pretty small compared to the private pay. MSU had $32M in private donations to the Bulldog last year. Ole Miss hasn't announced what they received last year yet. Base ticket sales and the shared money from the SEC go to the schools. PSU has something similar, and they will use that money to cover the fines.

[Snipe]

Newsflash it's not. Not sure where you get the idea that it is.


Why wouldn't it be? It is a State School. It is owned by the State, or isn't it? If it is owned by the State, than everything they have in the bank is State money in some sense. When state schools lose money, who do you think they go to. In Ohio, they need permission to increase tuition, or at least I think that is the case. And tuition is lower for in-state students, because it is subsidized by the State.

Many schools take money out of the general fund to fund athletics. Other schools are fortunate and take money out of the athletic fund to fund academics. Either way it affects the school and the students. I am assuming that Penn State makes money on athletics and uses that to both fund un-profitable women's sports, sports facilities for regular students and intramurals, and academics. Taking money away from that fund would diminish the benefits that they have traditionally conferred on other non-revenue programs. It is not like they distribute it to shareholders, that money is used for the State University.

[DC Muskie]

It is an enormous sum of money.

That will be paid off easily in five years without using one penny of state money.

[DC Muskie]

Why wouldn't it be? It is a State School. It is owned by the State, or isn't it? If it is owned by the State, than everything they have in the bank is State money in some sense. When state schools lose money, who do you think they go to. In Ohio, they need permission to increase tuition, or at least I think that is the case. And tuition is lower for in-state students, because it is subsidized by the State.

Many schools take money out of the general fund to fund athletics. Other schools are fortunate and take money out of the athletic fund to fund academics. Either way it affects the school and the students. I am assuming that Penn State makes money on athletics and uses that to both fund un-profitable women's sports, sports facilities for regular students and intramurals, and academics. Taking money away from that fund would diminish the benefits that they have traditionally conferred on other non-revenue programs. It is not like they distribute it to shareholders, that money is used for the State University.

I'm not even reading this post in full because you can't be serious.

[Snipe]

Not usually. Most of the finances are set up to keep much of the money out of state hands. By getting season tickets at MSU and Ole Miss, I am a "member" of their private booster clubs. In both cases I have to write one check to the university and one check to the booster club. The coaches, for example, get paid from 2 places: one check from the state and one check from the booster club. The state pay is pretty small compared to the private pay. MSU had $32M in private donations to the Bulldog last year. Ole Miss hasn't announced what they received last year yet. Base ticket sales and the shared money from the SEC go to the schools. PSU has something similar, and they will use that money to cover the fines.

That is interesting. It also sounds like a good plan on how not to share your ticket revenue with other SEC schools.

I think that Penn State will take a hit from boosters too. Contributing to build a new arena is one thing, contributing to pay a fine for homosexual pedophilia is quite another.

[DC Muskie]

I think that Penn State will take a hit from boosters too. Contributing to build a new arena is one thing, contributing to pay a fine for homosexual pedophilia is quite another.

I sincerely doubt it (http://www.publicopiniononline.com/sports/ci_21037371/despite-scandal-donations-are-up-penn-state-university).

[Snipe]

I'm not even reading this post in full because you can't be serious.

Well then I am not even reading your reply. Take that.

They don't distribute dividends at the end of the year, that money goes right back into the Univeristy. Without that money, it either has to come from somewhere or you have to do without. Somebody is taking a hit, it can't possibly be like nothing ever happened.

[paulxu]

I think that Penn State will take a hit from boosters too. Contributing to build a new arena is one thing, contributing to pay a fine for homosexual pedophilia is quite another.

Funny you should bring that up. I'm donating to build a new church here in beautiful, downtown Spartanburg, SC.

But I'm not contributing to the bishops's annual fund appeal, when I know some of it is going to pay fines for pedophilia in the diocese.

[Snipe]

I sincerely doubt it (http://www.publicopiniononline.com/sports/ci_21037371/despite-scandal-donations-are-up-penn-state-university).

Good for them. If I was a rabid supporter I would buy some private property adjacent to campus and put up a double size statue of Joe Patnero just to piss DC Muskie off.


Funny you should bring that up. I'm donating to build a new church here in beautiful, downtown Spartanburg, SC.

But I'm not contributing to the bishops's annual fund appeal, when I know some of it is going to pay fines for pedophilia in the diocese.

I think it is natural to feel that way.

[DC Muskie]

They don't distribute dividends at the end of the year, that money goes right back into the Univeristy. Without that money, it either has to come from somewhere or you have to do without. Somebody is taking a hit, it can't possibly be like nothing ever happened.

I seriously mean this with all of my heart.

I have no earthly idea what you are talking about.

It's pretty simple. The football team makes $73 million dollars a year. Their expenses do not equal $73 million dollars a year. They have an endowment, reserve, whatever...that the $60 they have to pay the NCAA over the next five years will come from, while at the same time forfeit the $13 million they would have made from the Big 10.

[DC Muskie]

Good for them. If I was a rabid supporter I would buy some private property adjacent to campus and put up a double size statue of Joe Patnero just to piss DC Muskie off.

And I will rail on this messageboard twice as much!

[blobfan]

I have thought many of the same things. After reviewing the Freeh report even though it seems a bit opinionated rather than totally factual, there is enough there to point to Paterno and others who knew enough to be in the position that they should have felt compelled to do more to investigate the abuse allegations more vigorously. Do I feel Paterno was at his core an evil man? No, but he was very off the mark on the Sandusky thing. Paterno would be facing criminal charges if he were alive. Did the NCAA go overbooard? Possibly, but it the end this scandal is so heinous, I think they did the right thing.

I am still a bit puzzled why people are not throwing more outrage to the janitors who claim to have witnessed abuse firsthand but did not report it.

I'm with you. I don't think Paterno was evil or even deliberate in his cover-up but as coach and public face of the program he should have done more than the law required. It is possible he was a good man that made a mistake that turned into something terrible. But we still have to pay for our mistakes.

As for the janitors, I can't for the life of me figure out how anyone could see something like that without screaming at every authority for the rest of their lives begging them to DO SOMETHING!

Every time I start to feel bad for PSU and Paterno I think about what it must have been like for those boys to be subjected to that. How many hours of pleasure at watching XU games would I be willing to forego to make up for those minutes of terrible pain and a lifetime of terror for just one boy, let alone 10+. How much sports entertainment is worth half a life?

I think the PSU fans saying things in those tweets should volunteer to be the next rape victim for some sicko. That'll give them perspective.

[paulxu]

Good for them. If I was a rabid supporter I would buy some private property adjacent to campus and put up a double size statue of Joe Patnero just to piss DC Muskie off.

I don't know about pissing DC off (and he's got enough to be worried about with trunks and clowns) but I would bet money that around the time of the first home game that somebody will organize something honoring Paterno....tailgate party, blow up life size ballon, something.

[LadyMuskie]

I'm with you. I don't think Paterno was evil or even deliberate in his cover-up but as coach and public face of the program he should have done more than the law required. It is possible he was a good man that made a mistake that turned into something terrible. But we still have to pay for our mistakes.



According to the emails, Paterno was behind the cover up. The AD and the President cow-towed to Paterno's decision not to report any of Sandusky's rapes, but particularly the one witnessed by McQueary. So, it was not only deliberate, it was his idea not to report it to anyone. Someone who knows that children are being raped and makes a proactive decision not to do anything about it, not only makes that person ahead of the curve in covering it up, but also makes him evil. Anyone who sits back and lets a child's innocence be stolen is scum. Paterno did that, and despite what he wants everyone to believe - that he didn't know about man and rape (which is in the Bible for cripes sake) he wasn't some backwoods moron without a clue.

As for the janitors, I'm guessing that their thinking was that if McQueary couldn't make them report a rape, there was no way that some lowly janitor was going to make a difference. It doesn't make it right that they didn't report it, but honestly, look at what it took to finally bring down the Happy Valley Empire. There are mob-related cover ups that didn't last as long.

The only victims in this entire situation are the boys who were raped by Sandusky. No one employed by, playing football for, or cheers for PSU is a victim.

[X-band '01]

Funny you should bring that up. I'm donating to build a new church here in beautiful, downtown Spartanburg, SC.

But I'm not contributing to the bishops's annual fund appeal, when I know some of it is going to pay fines for pedophilia in the diocese.

They don't let you earmark donations for specific departments in the Diocese down there?

[GoMuskies]

Apparently the NCAA's initial ask was a four-year death penalty.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8199905/penn-state-nittany-lions-rodney-erickson-said-school-faced-4-year-death-penalty

[XU 87]

According to the emails, Paterno was behind the cover up. The AD and the President cow-towed to Paterno's decision not to report any of Sandusky's rapes, but particularly the one witnessed by McQueary. So, it was not only deliberate, it was his idea not to report it to anyone. Someone who knows that children are being raped and makes a proactive decision not to do anything about it, not only makes that person ahead of the curve in covering it up, but also makes him evil. Anyone who sits back and lets a child's innocence be stolen is scum. Paterno did that, and despite what he wants everyone to believe - that he didn't know about man and rape (which is in the Bible for cripes sake) he wasn't some backwoods moron without a clue.

As for the janitors, I'm guessing that their thinking was that if McQueary couldn't make them report a rape, there was no way that some lowly janitor was going to make a difference. It doesn't make it right that they didn't report it, but honestly, look at what it took to finally bring down the Happy Valley Empire. There are mob-related cover ups that didn't last as long.


There is no email which says that Paterno unilaterally made a decision to not report rapes (plural) and specifically not report what McQuerry saw. Nor is there an email where the the PSU administration said they would follow Paterno's decision.

As for your second paragraph, the janitor incident took place before the McQueary incident. Incidentally the janitor incident was never reported to Paterno or anyone else at PSU. Despite this fact, Freeh blamed Paterno and PSU administration for it not being reported.

From the current available information, I don't know exactly what happened and why. Nor does Louis Freeh. He has offered his speculative opinions, which are being taken as absolute fact. But before we conclude that a guy was actively covering up rapes, we should at least get all the facts and respective stories first. That's all I ask for.

[LA Muskie]

From the current available information, I don't know exactly what happened and why. Nor does Louis Freeh. He has offered his speculative opinions, which are being taken as absolute fact.

But before we conclude that a guy was actively covering up rapes, we should at least get all the facts and respective stories first. That's all I ask for.
Well, they are now facts as far as PSU and the legal world are concerned. ESPN is reporting (http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8199905/penn-state-nittany-lions-rodney-erickson-said-school-faced-4-year-death-penalty)that the university "accepted full responsibility for the facts and conclusions of the 267-page Freeh report", as part of the consent decree that PSU entered into with the NCAA to avoid a 4-year death penalty. That, incidentally, will probably subject PSU to civil liability that will dwarf the $60mil fine.

[XU 87]

I am not surprised that PSU accepted the Freeh Report's facts and conclusions in order to avoid the death penalty. And after all, PSU hired these people so they would have another PR disaster if they disputed the findings.

But this does not mean that the Freeh Report is factually accurate or comprehensive nor does this contradict that some or many of the findings are inherently biased or speculative.

[paulxu]

They don't let you earmark donations for specific departments in the Diocese down there?

Maybe, don't know. I was refering to the annual stewardship appeal from the bishop. I'm assuming that's a general fund of some sort, and since the diocese has not helped us with the new church (we've been trying to raise funds and build it for 12 years), I'm not up to supporting their law suit settlements.


But this does not mean that the Freeh Report is factually accurate or comprehensive nor does this contradict that some or many of the findings are inherently biased or speculative.

87, I concur with treating opinion and fact separately. I thought however there was documented evidence of Paterno requesting the AD not to pursue the matter after they were going to originally confront Sandusky. (I may also be all wet on that one, but that's what I remember)

[xudash]

Today's paper listed other things that were going on, during the Paterno regime.

They had a compliance officer fired for pursuing compliance related matters, concerning football players being involved in beating up students in a dormitory. That's just one example.

The Sandusky "thing" triggered all this, but institutional control at Penn State appears to have been out of whack for a while.

The Sandusky episode was very much about a lack of institutional control, but it now appears that it was not a one-off situation.

[XU 87]

87, I concur with treating opinion and fact separately. I thought however there was documented evidence of Paterno requesting the AD not to pursue the matter after they were going to originally confront Sandusky. (I may also be all wet on that one, but that's what I remember)

There is no documented evidence of this. And they (PSU admins- not Paterno) did confront Sandusky. They also informed (actually met with) his charity executives. The charity declared this a "non-issue". See below as to what the admins told the charity.

What the PSU admins didn't do was tell child welfare. That's the big issue.

But the case against the PSU admins primarily boils down to what McQuery told them. They claim that he described it as inappropriate horseplay, but that he never described it as rape, molestation or sexual in nature. McQueary says otherwise. And there are reasons to question all of their respective stories.

Freeh, without actually saying so, clearly believes McQueary's version. Which is interesting since Freeh never spoke to McQueary (or the two PSU admins).

[paulxu]

This is an interesting article trying to put a different light specifically on Paterno.

http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/20120724_In_defense_of_Joe_Paterno.html

[LA Muskie]

But this does not mean that the Freeh Report is factually accurate or comprehensive nor does this contradict that some or many of the findings are inherently biased or speculative.
"Facts" are in the eye of the beholder. Judges and juries determine "facts" (i.e. weigh the evidence and credibility of witnesses and then render a verdict -- their *opinion* of what happened) all the time.

[waggy]

You need to work on your definition of facts, Mr. Clinton.

[LA Muskie]

You need to work on your definition of facts, Mr. Clinton.

Judges and juries are called "finders of fact." If all facts were black and white, they wouldn't have to be "found".

[GoMuskies]

If a judge decides something is a fact for legal purposes, that doesn't necessarily make it an actual fact. Someone has to decide what the "facts" are in a court case (that's 99% of the reason for court), but that doesn't mean they're right.

Freeh's report may be the facts Penn State has stipulated to, but that doesn't mean it's not wrong.

[LA Muskie]

If a judge decides something is a fact for legal purposes, that doesn't necessarily make it an actual fact. Someone has to decide what the "facts" are in a court case (that's 99% of the reason for court), but that doesn't mean they're right.

Freeh's report may be the facts Penn State has stipulated to, but that doesn't mean it's not wrong.

On this we can agree, and hence why I am opposed to the death penalty.

[Snipe]

This is an interesting article trying to put a different light specifically on Paterno.

http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/20120724_In_defense_of_Joe_Paterno.html

That is an interesting article to say the least. I would not be surprised if 10 years from now much of the worldview would have shifted in that direction.


"Facts" are in the eye of the beholder. Judges and juries determine "facts" (i.e. weigh the evidence and credibility of witnesses and then render a verdict -- their *opinion* of what happened) all the time.

Facts are in the eye of the beholder. Is it History or His Story?

Paterno never had his day in court. He never had a judge or a jury trial. It was all the court of public opinion. I am a big fan of the court of public opinion, because that is what this thread is all about. I haven't even read the report! Don't even intend to. From people that I trust that have read the report, there is no smoking gun linking Paterno. It is interesting that everyone assumes that a 74 year old man must have known this or must have done that without any direct evidence. He did have a football program to run, that might have been more than enough on his plate. DC Muskie objects that I note that he was an elderly man. I am not sure he had the same mental capacity that he had when he was 10, 20 or 30 years younger. Coaching is a young man's game when you are 74. He didn't have that many contemporaries and peers his age. Most burn out sooner or go into the booth.

I don't think he was that great of a coach in his later years, but he was such an institution that they couldn't fire him. He said that if he stopped coaching he would just die anyway, so why stop? Go figure that once he was fired and stopped coaching, he died. Doesn't surprise me. Coaching kept him going, but I am not sure he was all there mentally. Your mental capacity decreases with age, though your mileage may vary. Some rare people live to 100 and work everyday and still seem sharp well into old age. Some people have a slow fade, and some people fade fast.

Paterno was more than bright, he was Ivy League. He played quarterback at Brown University. The thing is, he was at Brown in 1946, which was 66 years ago. Nothing lasts forever. People depict him as an Emperor that is calling all the shots for the program. I am sure that was the case at some point, but was it the case when he was 74? Was he really attuned to every detail like he was when he was much younger? Didn't he delegate more authority just to get by?

In the end he was coaching from the Press Box. He couldn't even walk the sidelines. He was an institution. He said he didn't want to quit because he would just go away and die without Penn State football. And it happened. I bet if Sandusky didn't like to homosexually molest young boys, JoePa would still be alive, but still declining.

Though he may not have been a great coach at the end, he was a coach, and he wasn't a horrible coach. He was still better at 74 than most coaches. He could at least do that. Now could he really handle all the other things? Did he have the best grasp on this situation? I think as he grew older he probably relied more and more on other people and his administration. Would a 40 year old Paterno have approached the situation the same way? I doubt it, and that was when he was younger and probably hungrier. When he was 74 in 2001, he didn't have to do anything to cement his reputation, he was an icon.

He died at age 85. He coached until the end. He wasn't all there. He wasn't the same Joe Paterno. He never had his day in court, or a day for the judges and juries that LA Muskie likes to highlight about deciding the truth. He hasn't been judged guilty of a crime. And after he died, people heaped a bunch of blame on him instead of themselves or the system or culture that we live in. He came from a different generation, and as far as I can tell committed no crimes. He wasn't involved in these crimes, he didn't participate or witness in any way. These were not his crimes. They were other peoples crimes, and he wasn't running the University. He reported it up the chain of command. The Police were involved, and they failed to act.


Judges and juries are called "finders of fact." If all facts were black and white, they wouldn't have to be "found".

We had no judges and juries. Some people agreed to a $60 million dollar settlement, and some money changed hands. I wouldn't mind a very small piece of that action. Nobody was elected to judge Paterno. He never had a jury go against him. Now that he is dead, we all seem to have a unanimous verdict. What happened to the thought of innocent until proven guilty? What happened to the concept of mental capacity?

The worst part for me is that Paterno gets so much ink, while the man who was actually homosexually molesting young men gets the backseat. The police were informed and nothing happened. The University was informed and nothing happened. So it must be that aging 74 year old man's fault. And all the authorities that now want to render judgement do so once he is dead. He doesn't even get to answer the claims, no cross examination (not of the homosexually molested boys, but of the people blaming him), no nothing. It is a bit too convenient for my tastes.

[Snipe]

“History is a set of lies agreed upon.” ~ Napoleon Bonaparte

Truer words have never been spoken.

[waggy]

The Truth will set you free.

[DC Muskie]

I love Snipe. Just keep repeating the same stuff and eventually it becomes fact.

Can't blame him, I do it all the time.

There is all this talk about speculation and fact. Snipe will claim that Joe Paterno did not have his day in court, but is perfectly fine speculating as to his mental capacities at the age of 74. Or 64. Or 54. Ignore any facts. Create as much doubt as you can.

Joe Paterno at 74 wasn't capable of running a football program on a day to day basis. How could he? He was 74. Since I never played, I trust from people who read in general, that football is a young's man game.

Joe Paterno built the Empire but was not the Emperor. That's Snipe stance. Joe Paterno didn't run the University. They only built statues of him, named buildings (including the Spiritual Center) and student sections of him.

Penn State couldn't fire him when they wanted to, but the Emperor had no power. Not at 78. He delegated his "you can't fire me" power to his offensive coordinator apparently. I'm not sure that's just me speculating.

In January of 2012 Joe Paterno had an interview with the Washington Post. This was his chance to clear the air, to give his side of the story. The people who couldn't fire him, made sure they prevented him from holding a press conference. He needed people to understand his side. This was his chance.

Paterno told Sally Jenkins of the Post:

On a Saturday morning in 2002, an upset young assistant coach named Mike McQueary knocked on Paterno’s door to tell him he had witnessed a shocking scene in the Penn State football building showers. Until that moment, Paterno said, he had “no inkling” that Sandusky might be a sexual deviant.

Although not a witness or a participant, this is critical information that came straight from Joe Paterno's mouth.

He had "no inking" of Sandusky's behavior prior to 2002.

Interesting.

1998 there were accusations of Sandusky showered with and molested a boy. Jerry Sandusky at this time was an employee of Joe Paterno. The Emperor must have delegated possibly knowing of assistant coaches ass pounding boys to his special team coach.

In his own words he had "no inking" of Sandusky's suspicious behavior in 1998. The Emperor had no idea that someone who worked for him was involved in an investigation of possibly pounding the ass of a little boy. There is no way the Emperor could have known about any of this. He was 71 years old at the time.

Louis Freeh's investigation discovered there were two emails from the Emperor's boss, the one without a statue built of him or of any buildings named after him. He wrote his bosses, neither of whom have statues built of them, or buildings named after them either.

In two emails the Emperor's immediate boss wanted to know what was the progress of the investigation of Sandusky, because the Emperor is anxious to know where it stands.

"Anxious to know" in 1998 turned into "no inking" in 2012.

I agree with Snipe that Joe never had his day in court. I'd be interested to see how he would answer this question which looks like to me, that he in fact lied to Sally Jenkins that he knew nothing of the 1998 invesitgation. "No inking." His words. Evidence shows he did know. If lying to sally Jenkins is no big deal, what about a grand jury? Here is the transcripts from his testimony:

Q: Other than the incident that Mike McQueary reported to you, do you know in any way, through rumor, direct knowledge or any other fashion, of any other inappropriate sexual conduct by Jerry Sandusky with young boys?

Mr. Paterno: I do not know of anything else that Jerry would be involved in of that nature, no. I do not know of it.

You did mention — I think you said something about a rumor. It may have been discussed in my presence, something else about somebody.

I don’t know.

I don’t remember, and I could not honestly say I heard a rumor.

When informed about the incident in 2002, Joe Paterno passed it along to his supervisors. Victim 1 was then molested in 2005 or 2006 at a Second Mile camp being held at Penn State. The Emperor knew of two separate incidents and yet Sandusky was free to roam the campus. He had to have an "inking" about Sandusky's behavior in 2002, even if he was 74. Someone told him that. Three years later, another ass from another boy got pounded on his campus.

"No inking" in 2002 turned into "Blind Disregard" by 2006.

Joe Paterno is a liar. That may just be me speculating here.

Joe Paterno died knowing he was first in all time wins as a coach in Div 1 football. He died knowing there was a statue of him outside the Colusiem he built. He died knowing the spiritual center on campus was named after him. Joe died knowing he survived the possibly perjury case that was ahead of him. Being 85 has it's benefits I guess.

And he died right after he lied to Sally Jenkins and the grand jury. We all learned on July 12th that he was a liar and now Penn State football will pay for his sins.

[DC Muskie]

This is an interesting article trying to put a different light specifically on Paterno.

http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/20120724_In_defense_of_Joe_Paterno.html

What is interesting is the sentence...

There is almost no evidence that they consulted substantially with Paterno.

So there is evidence that they consulted with Patero then right? Just not "substantially." Whatever the level of consultation, they consulted Joe.

You would think a guy who built the Empire might have said, "Anybody want to make sure this boy ass pounding pervert doesn't step foot on campus? That would be great. Thanks."

Apparently not according to this poorly construed article.

[LA Muskie]

That is an interesting article to say the least. I would not be surprised if 10 years from now much of the worldview would have shifted in that direction.



Facts are in the eye of the beholder. Is it History or His Story?

Paterno never had his day in court. He never had a judge or a jury trial. It was all the court of public opinion. I am a big fan of the court of public opinion, because that is what this thread is all about. I haven't even read the report! Don't even intend to. From people that I trust that have read the report, there is no smoking gun linking Paterno. It is interesting that everyone assumes that a 74 year old man must have known this or must have done that without any direct evidence. He did have a football program to run, that might have been more than enough on his plate. DC Muskie objects that I note that he was an elderly man. I am not sure he had the same mental capacity that he had when he was 10, 20 or 30 years younger. Coaching is a young man's game when you are 74. He didn't have that many contemporaries and peers his age. Most burn out sooner or go into the booth.

I don't think he was that great of a coach in his later years, but he was such an institution that they couldn't fire him. He said that if he stopped coaching he would just die anyway, so why stop? Go figure that once he was fired and stopped coaching, he died. Doesn't surprise me. Coaching kept him going, but I am not sure he was all there mentally. Your mental capacity decreases with age, though your mileage may vary. Some rare people live to 100 and work everyday and still seem sharp well into old age. Some people have a slow fade, and some people fade fast.

Paterno was more than bright, he was Ivy League. He played quarterback at Brown University. The thing is, he was at Brown in 1946, which was 66 years ago. Nothing lasts forever. People depict him as an Emperor that is calling all the shots for the program. I am sure that was the case at some point, but was it the case when he was 74? Was he really attuned to every detail like he was when he was much younger? Didn't he delegate more authority just to get by?

In the end he was coaching from the Press Box. He couldn't even walk the sidelines. He was an institution. He said he didn't want to quit because he would just go away and die without Penn State football. And it happened. I bet if Sandusky didn't like to homosexually molest young boys, JoePa would still be alive, but still declining.

Though he may not have been a great coach at the end, he was a coach, and he wasn't a horrible coach. He was still better at 74 than most coaches. He could at least do that. Now could he really handle all the other things? Did he have the best grasp on this situation? I think as he grew older he probably relied more and more on other people and his administration. Would a 40 year old Paterno have approached the situation the same way? I doubt it, and that was when he was younger and probably hungrier. When he was 74 in 2001, he didn't have to do anything to cement his reputation, he was an icon.

He died at age 85. He coached until the end. He wasn't all there. He wasn't the same Joe Paterno. He never had his day in court, or a day for the judges and juries that LA Muskie likes to highlight about deciding the truth. He hasn't been judged guilty of a crime. And after he died, people heaped a bunch of blame on him instead of themselves or the system or culture that we live in. He came from a different generation, and as far as I can tell committed no crimes. He wasn't involved in these crimes, he didn't participate or witness in any way. These were not his crimes. They were other peoples crimes, and he wasn't running the University. He reported it up the chain of command. The Police were involved, and they failed to act.



We had no judges and juries. Some people agreed to a $60 million dollar settlement, and some money changed hands. I wouldn't mind a very small piece of that action. Nobody was elected to judge Paterno. He never had a jury go against him. Now that he is dead, we all seem to have a unanimous verdict. What happened to the thought of innocent until proven guilty? What happened to the concept of mental capacity?

The worst part for me is that Paterno gets so much ink, while the man who was actually homosexually molesting young men gets the backseat. The police were informed and nothing happened. The University was informed and nothing happened. So it must be that aging 74 year old man's fault. And all the authorities that now want to render judgement do so once he is dead. He doesn't even get to answer the claims, no cross examination (not of the homosexually molested boys, but of the people blaming him), no nothing. It is a bit too convenient for my tastes.

Dude, this is just too much. Do you get paid by the word to post here? Brevity, my friend. Brevity.

Oh, and if you think every case has a "smoking gun" you've been watching far too many episodes of Law & Order and CSI. Many cases have to be decided in the absence of damning direct evidence. Lack of direct evidence does not equal innocence.

[XUglow]

Go get 'em, DC. Public reps.

[boozehound]

What is interesting is the sentence...

There is almost no evidence that they consulted substantially with Paterno.

So there is evidence that they consulted with Patero then right? Just not "substantially." Whatever the level of consultation, they consulted Joe.

You would think a guy who built the Empire might have said, "Anybody want to make sure this boy ass pounding pervert doesn't step foot on campus? That would be great. Thanks."

Apparently not according to this poorly construed article.

That is what I keep coming back to. I'm pretty sure Joe Paterno had the power to ban Jerry Sandusky from having anything to do with the program or facilities. The thing about doing that is that people might start asking questions. I don't think that Paterno is the only, or most, guilty party in this. I just think he should have done a lot more.

Everybody involved in this at PSU had tough decisions to make. The problem is that the way that they handled the issue contributed to more kids getting raped. I'm sure that there was a tremendous amount of rationalization on the part of everyone involved as to why it was best for everybody if they didn't blow the whistle. I doubt that any of them set out to do evil things, but they found themselves in a difficult situation and acted in an evil manner.

[LA Muskie]

That is what I keep coming back to. I'm pretty sure Joe Paterno had the power to ban Jerry Sandusky from having anything to do with the program or facilities. The thing about doing that is that people might start asking questions. I don't think that Paterno is the only, or most, guilty party in this. I just think he should have done a lot more.

Everybody involved in this at PSU had tough decisions to make. The problem is that the way that they handled the issue contributed to more kids getting raped. I'm sure that there was a tremendous amount of rationalization on the part of everyone involved as to why it was best for everybody if they didn't blow the whistle. I doubt that any of them set out to do evil things, but they found themselves in a difficult situation and acted in an evil manner.

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding... We have a winner. This sums it up perfectly (as far as I am concerned). Poor judgment? Absolutely. Self-interested judgment? Almost certainly. Felonious judgment? Depends on the facts and the law.

[DC Muskie]

That is what I keep coming back to. I'm pretty sure Joe Paterno had the power to ban Jerry Sandusky from having anything to do with the program or facilities. The thing about doing that is that people might start asking questions. I don't think that Paterno is the only, or most, guilty party in this. I just think he should have done a lot more.

Everybody involved in this at PSU had tough decisions to make. The problem is that the way that they handled the issue contributed to more kids getting raped. I'm sure that there was a tremendous amount of rationalization on the part of everyone involved as to why it was best for everybody if they didn't blow the whistle. I doubt that any of them set out to do evil things, but they found themselves in a difficult situation and acted in an evil manner.

Paterno even agrees with you on the bold part.

The only thing I disagree with it is, why didn't anyone find out who the kid was in 2002? He still hasn't been found or identified. Everyone passed this issues back and forth. Paterno to me was the one person who could have made the most immediate difference.

He's Joe Paterno. The guy owns the most victories in college football. Was he even curious about who the kid was or what happened to him at least?

That's the disturbing part.



Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding... We have a winner. This sums it up perfectly (as far as I am concerned). Poor judgment? Absolutely. Self-interested judgment? Almost certainly. Felonious judgment? Depends on the facts and the law.

Is lying to a grand jury a felony?

I don't have a statue built of me. My hope is one day someone, somewhere will. But I would think having people build me a statue means I am or have been capable of many things.

Like conquering cities. Or other football programs.

Either way, I think allowing this type of behavior to occur you would think it would go beyond poor judgement. I don't think you have to engage proactively in a activity to be considered evil. I don't know how you wrap your mind around knowing some little boy's ass got pounded and you didn't even bother to find out if he was still alive.

[LA Muskie]

I got what you were saying, Brew, and I agree.

The NCAA isn't empowered to help the victims, but there are other processes. In addition to losing $60 mil, the university is looking at myriad lawsuits. Some will be legitimate. Others will be opportunistic. In the end, the $60 mil fine will pale in comparison to the settlement and litigation costs -- which, in light of the Freeh report and other evidence likely to come out, probably will not be covered by insurance.

Will money "help" the victims? Will lifelong therapy paid for by PSU "help" the victims? Will convictions and imprisonment of Sandusky and the PSU officials who covered this up "help" the victims? All will probably help to varying degrees, but I really don't think there is any way to make those boys/men and their families whole, absent the invention of a time machine.

Following up on the point in bold, above, CNN is reporting (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/25/us/pennsylvania-penn-state-insurer/index.html) that PSU's carrier has already commenced legal proceedings for the purpose of avoiding and/or voiding coverage.

[LA Muskie]

Is lying to a grand jury a felony?
I'd be shocked if it is not.


I don't have a statue built of me. My hope is one day someone, somewhere will. But I would think having people build me a statue means I am or have been capable of many things. Like conquering cities. Or other football programs. Either way, I think allowing this type of behavior to occur you would think it would go beyond poor judgement. I don't think you have to engage proactively in a activity to be considered evil. I don't know how you wrap your mind around knowing some little boy's ass got pounded and you didn't even bother to find out if he was still alive.
It's hard to get inside their heads. They were certainly very weak men who were far more concerned with their own personal legacies and the protection of their sacred institution than the lives of those children -- which, don't get me wrong, is utterly despicable. But I will reserve judgment on whether they were "evil" -- that's not my place, and there's just too much I don't know.

[Juice]

Is lying to a grand jury a felony?

I looked it up in the Ohio Revised Code, which is obviously not Pennsylvania, but eff Pennsylvania anyways.

Under Chapter 2939 concerning Grand Juries:


Before a witness is examined by the grand jury, an oath shall be administered to him by the foreman of the grand jury or by the judge of the court of common pleas or the clerk of the court of common pleas, truly to testify of such matters and things as may lawfully be inquired of before such jury. A certificate that the oath has been administered shall be indorsed on the subpoena of the witness or otherwise made by the foreman of the grand jury, judge, or clerk certifying the attendance of said witness to the clerk of the court.

And under Chapter 2921 which covers Offenses Against Justice and Public Administration:


2921.11 Perjury.

(A) No person, in any official proceeding, shall knowingly make a false statement under oath or affirmation, or knowingly swear or affirm the truth of a false statement previously made, when either statement is material.

(B) A falsification is material, regardless of its admissibility in evidence, if it can affect the course or outcome of the proceeding. It is no defense to a charge under this section that the offender mistakenly believed a falsification to be immaterial.

(C) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the oath or affirmation was administered or taken in an irregular manner.

(D) Where contradictory statements relating to the same material fact are made by the offender under oath or affirmation and within the period of the statute of limitations for perjury, it is not necessary for the prosecution to prove which statement was false, but only that one or the other was false.

(E) No person shall be convicted of a violation of this section where proof of falsity rests solely upon contradiction by testimony of one person other than the defendant.

(F) Whoever violates this section is guilty of perjury, a felony of the third degree.

[LA Muskie]

I looked it up. Not surprisingly, lying to a Grand Jury constitutes perjury, a 3rd degree felony in Pennsylvania.

Grand Jury witnesses are sworn. Rule 227 (http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/234/chapter2/s227.html), PA Rules of Criminal Procedure.

Lying under oath in an official proceeding constitutes perjury under PA law, punishable as a 3rd degree felony. 18 PA Cons. Stat. § 4902 (http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/crimes-and-offenses/00.049.002.000.html).

[nuts4xu]

Did you guys really need to look it up to verify if lying to a federal grand jury was a crime?

Geez Louise, you have too much time on your hands......

[joebba]

The new Penn St. coach is considering having the uniforms changed. I think that is prbably a good idea, a way to mark a new era.

[LA Muskie]

Did you guys really need to look it up to verify if lying to a federal grand jury was a crime?

Geez Louise, you have too much time on your hands......

Not really, but sometimes curiosity (and procrastination) abounds.

[LA Muskie]

The new Penn St. coach is considering having the uniforms changed. I think that is prbably a good idea, a way to mark a new era.

Absent changing the name of the school, I don't see the stigma going anywhere for at least the term of the penalties. But he's gotta try something. I must confess that I'm shocked at how many players have pledged allegiance and are sticking around despite the sanctions (and free agent status). Not sure if that's good or bad. The Church of Paterno may be stronger than anyone realized.

[Snipe]

Dude, this is just too much. Do you get paid by the word to post here? Brevity, my friend. Brevity.


I apologize. I lied to a grand jury, and I was wondering if it was a felony. Please give me some brevity with that, because you guys seemed to go on and on. Not that I am complaining.

Who lied to the grand jury? Was that answered? Was this thread hijacked? If it was a crime to lie to a grand jury, what might be more important is to who is doing the lies.

I am serious Dude, this is just too much. Who was convicted of lying to a grand jury?

[paulxu]

Snipe...what are you doing up at 4:40 AM on a Sunday morning (or Saturday night)?

[DC Muskie]

I apologize. I lied to a grand jury, and I was wondering if it was a felony. Please give me some brevity with that, because you guys seemed to go on and on. Not that I am complaining.

Who lied to the grand jury? Was that answered? Was this thread hijacked? If it was a crime to lie to a grand jury, what might be more important is to who is doing the lies.

I am serious Dude, this is just too much. Who was convicted of lying to a grand jury?

Are these questions in reference to something?

Was there a question a question about who lied to a grand jury?

Sorry to answer questions with questions, but I did it for brevity sake.

[xubrew]

Penn State is not going quietly after all....

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8240385/penn-state-nittany-lions-trustees-appeal-ncaa-vow-federal-lawsuit

This appeal is utterly ridiculous. The basis of it is that the president had no legal authority to agree with the sanctions without consulting the board of trustees. The reason that will not fly is that the NCAA views the university president as the ultimate authority. As far as they are concerned, the BOT doesn't exist. If there is a legal issue, it will be the NCAA's opinion that it is entirely between the president and the BOT.

I understand the opinions of those that feel Penn State did not get due process. I personally do not agree that they were not given due process, but understand that an argument could be made that they did not. The president could have said no and gone before the infractions committee. He did not. So, where exactly is the lack of due process??

There is a rumor going around that the NCAA threatened to give Penn State the death penalty if they did not agree to the sanctions. I understand that where there is smoke there is sometimes fire, but in this case, I simply do not believe it. For starters, if Penn State were to get the death penalty, the NCAA would have had to arbitrarily give it to them. The death penalty is for repeat offenders, not first time offenders, no matter how aggregious the first offense is. It was not in the cards. Having said that, I realize that the NCAA does things arbitrarily all the time these days, but I just have a hard time believing the scenario. It is not their style to give an ultimatum where if they do not accept the sanctions, they will arbitrarily be given the death penalty. Nor is it their style to say they will get the death penalty if it is leaked to the press. Case and point, it has been "leaked" to the press, and Penn State is not getting the death penalty.

[GoMuskies]

Maybe the NCAA will give them what they want: grant the appeal, go through the normal infractions process and then wallop them with the death penalty they originally threatened.

That would greatly amuse me.

By the way, this Ryan J. McCombie guy is a complete toolbox. Oops, I actually had him mixed up with Anthony Lubrano, who even Seth Davis thinks is a knobber!

[LadyMuskie]

Jeebus.

Is Penn State taking the Xavier approach to drawing out something that could have been dying down by now? People have moved on to the Olympics, theater shootings, temple shootings, etc. and now PSU is going to appeal. Take your punishment (which could have been worse), keep your head down, nose clean, and wait it out. What's next? A mandatory reflection session during a football game?

[kyxu]

Is Penn State taking the Xavier approach to drawing out something that could have been dying down by now?

I think it's a little too soon for that.

[DC Muskie]

I will never get the, "Yeah I feel sorry that little boy's asses were pounded at Penn State, but leave JoePa's victories and my football team ALONE!" mentality.

[kyxu]

I will never get the, "Yeah I feel sorry that little boy's asses were pounded at Penn State, but leave JoePa's victories and my football team ALONE!" mentality.

That's why this whole thing is so backwards. Penn State gets to play the victim card ("WE STAND BEHIND OUR FOOTBALL TEAM!!!....oh, right, and those kids whose lives were ruined"), when they're not the victim.

These kids can still play football. They can still get a free education. It's not like they had their childhood taken from them.

But they'll go ahead and sell these in Happy Valley...

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/08/08/penn/large.jpeg

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Could this be just the tip of the iceberg?

"Feds probe possible Sandusky Child Porn Ring"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57491185/feds-probe-possible-sandusky-child-porn-ring/

"Jerry Sandusky 'shared boys he molested with other high-profile pedophiles linked to Penn State as part of sex ring' "

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2186805/Jerry-Sandusky-shared-boys-molested-high-profile-pedophiles-linked-Penn-State-sex-ring.html#ixzz23Fg5n2iM

[Cheesehead]

Could this be just the tip of the iceberg?

"Feds probe possible Sandusky Child Porn Ring"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57491185/feds-probe-possible-sandusky-child-porn-ring/

"Jerry Sandusky 'shared boys he molested with other high-profile pedophiles linked to Penn State as part of sex ring' "

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2186805/Jerry-Sandusky-shared-boys-molested-high-profile-pedophiles-linked-Penn-State-sex-ring.html#ixzz23Fg5n2iM


I love how his lawyer says, "Jerry still maintains his innocence." I want to punch those two in the face.

[DC Muskie]

That's why this whole thing is so backwards. Penn State gets to play the victim card ("WE STAND BEHIND OUR FOOTBALL TEAM!!!....oh, right, and those kids whose lives were ruined"), when they're not the victim.

These kids can still play football. They can still get a free education. It's not like they had their childhood taken from them.

But they'll go ahead and sell these in Happy Valley...

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/08/08/penn/large.jpeg

Oh My God.

My friends who are Penn State fans have interesting profile pictures on their Facebook accounts.

Penn State will forever be made up of idiots.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

And the beat goes on...

"Witness claims he saw Jerry Sandusky and Penn State Booster sexually abuse boys on private plane"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/13/jerry-sandusky-booster-sex-abuse-private-plane_n_1772564.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

[GoMuskies]

Penn State made the tough choice to cut Sweet Caroline out of the stadium playlist this year. Something about "touching me, touch-ing you" I suppose does not seem appropriate there at this point.

[paulxu]

Penn State made the tough choice to cut Sweet Caroline out of the stadium playlist this year. Something about "touching me, touch-ing you" I suppose does not seem appropriate there at this point.

Not everyone got the memo.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jeffrey-sandusky-child-sex-abuse-jeffrey_us_58a20804e4b0ab2d2b17d9ac?

[xubrew]

Abuse breeds abuse.

[xu82]

Abuse breeds abuse.

So true, and so sad. Sounds like he will be on the other side of the bars at the correctional facility for a change. That's just horrible in every way possible.

[chico]

Penn State made the tough choice to cut Sweet Caroline out of the stadium playlist this year. Something about "touching me, touch-ing you" I suppose does not seem appropriate there at this point.

I guess this means no more Rock and Roll Part 2 either.

[ammtd34]

I guess this means no more Rock and Roll Part 2 either.

Good call.

[GIMMFD]

So true, and so sad. Sounds like he will be on the other side of the bars at the correctional facility for a change. That's just horrible in every way possible.

It makes you kind of contemplate if the son was abused while growing up in childhood, you see a lot of that happen, abusee's become abusers because they find it normal. I will say this technically has nothing to do with Penn State though, because he was never employeed by Penn State, and this is more of a Sandusky family thing than something the university should get stuck for (granted, associations will always occur)

[xu82]

It makes you kind of contemplate if the son was abused while growing up in childhood, you see a lot of that happen, abusee's become abusers because they find it normal. I will say this technically has nothing to do with Penn State though, because he was never employeed by Penn State, and this is more of a Sandusky family thing than something the university should get stuck for (granted, associations will always occur)

This certainly is not on PSU in any direct way. My sister-in-law worked there related to major fundraising during the worst of the scandal. Talk about making the job more difficult! Yikes!

[Juice]

It makes you kind of contemplate if the son was abused while growing up in childhood, you see a lot of that happen, abusee's become abusers because they find it normal. I will say this technically has nothing to do with Penn State though, because he was never employeed by Penn State, and this is more of a Sandusky family thing than something the university should get stuck for (granted, associations will always occur)

I thought it was a fact that he was, or am I mis-remembering all of this?

[GIMMFD]

I thought it was a fact that he was, or am I mis-remembering all of this?

No, Jeffrey or whatever never worked at Penn State, defended his father, and was a marine, but never worked at Penn State.

[xu82]

No, Jeffrey or whatever never worked at Penn State, defended his father, and was a marine, but never worked at Penn State.

I'm not sure that was what he was questioning....

[Juice]

No, Jeffrey or whatever never worked at Penn State, defended his father, and was a marine, but never worked at Penn State.

No I meant that he was abused. Again, I could be way off on this.