Temple & Big East

[waggy]

There has been "mutual interest" between the Big East football conference and Temple, "maybe more intense recently," a source said Tuesday just before officials from schools that play Big East football met in New York.

Also


According to an Atlantic Ten source, officials from A-10 schools had a conference call Tuesday night to talk about all realignment issues. Another source said afterward it was an informational meeting, discussing all issues surrounding the current landscape.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/colleges/temple/130248518.html

[bourbonman]

IF the Big East stays together with football schools involved, Temple and its football program are as good as gone, IMO.

[xsteve1]

This would be bad for X. We stay in the A10 and lose the second best program in the league. Then we are playing in an even worse conference than it is now.

[XUOWNSUC]

I don't get it though - how would Temple make big east football any better? The league sucks (football-wise) already as it is. I don't see how they can continue to justify an automatic BCS berth for that crappy league. Whatever BCS bowl game ends up with the big east team in it is usually a crappy and boring game.

[nuts4xu]

I don't get it though - how would Temple make big east football any better?

It wouldn't neccessarily make it better, but with the Big East losing Pitt and Syracuse, it is grasping at straws trying to stay together as a football conference.

Other schools mentioned going to the BE are Central Florida and the millitary academies. Those schools won't make the conference better either.

[GoMuskies]

Navy would make the Big East better.

[MCXU]

I have a question regarding League invites.

Lets just say the basketball only schools in the Big East do not like the fact that the football schools are inviting crappy football teams to the conference and are diluting the quality of the basketball league.

Could the basketball teams vote not to accept these teams. Basically i'm asking if the basketball schools have a vote when it comes to inviting football teams.

If they do have a vote, they could form a pact to not allow anymore teams into the league to save football.

Not that this is something they would want to do, I am just trying to see what there strategic options are.

[Ledgewood]

I think this all sucks because this is all because of football and I don't care about college football that much. I really care about college basketball and this is really screwing things around. I wish it would all just stay the way it is. I like the Atlantic 10 and the results we've gotten from being in this league. I don't want to lose Temple and I don't want to go into some weird new Big East. Why are all these schools hitting panic buttons and switching around conferences? Let's all just smoke some drugs and chill out fer Chrissake.

[bleedXblue]

I think its interesting that the league met yesterday to discuss options for the future and NONE of the basketball only schools were present.

Thats very telling to me if I am Villanova, Gerogetown, Marquette or St. John's.

[THRILLHOUSE]

I think its interesting that the league met yesterday to discuss options for the future and NONE of the basketball only schools were present.

Thats very telling to me if I am Villanova, Gerogetown, Marquette or St. John's.

The bball schools met on monday

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

This would be bad for X. We stay in the A10 and lose the second best program in the league. Then we are playing in an even worse conference than it is now.

This is worst case scenario for X. Big East snags Temple and leaves X in a conference that may not even be top 10 at that point

[bleedXblue]

The B-ball schools are going to wait as long as they can before making a decision.

They clearly are the tail being wagged by the dog.

[xudash]

The B-ball schools are going to wait as long as they can before making a decision.

They clearly are the tail being wagged by the dog.

I agree. Some of their fans have had enough and argue for cutting loose now. I wish they would.

The more thoughtful among them are suggesting to hold back and see how things work out on the football side. IF the BE can remain a hybrid with AQ status, it would be even weaker than it is now and it would get hammered in the press, but it would still be in the club, and the hoops schools would be in the club as second class citizens with them.

For those of you who don't want Xavier to move to a new conference with those hoops schools, I suggest you just don't get it. The A10 WILL lose Temple at some point. It will lose UMass and Charlotte, too.

If it were up to me, I would move Xavier into a league with Georgetown, etc. the second the opportunity presents itself. In the meantime, assuming I could dictate what the A10 does, I would work to arrange the following:

WEST
Xavier
St. Louis
Butler
UD
Duquesne

EAST
Richmond
St. Joe's
GW
URI
VCU or George Mason
----------------------- Core surviving group above the line

Temple
UMass
Charlotte
----------------------- Pending exits due to football

SBU
............................ Bona given time to transition based on football departures.


Fordham and LaSalle are forced to write the A10 exit fee checks in the amount of $500k each. Once the checks clear the bank, they are taken out back and beaten with broom handles by the ADs of the remaining schools as they each are otherwise forced to chug a bottle of Thunderbird.

Obviously, I'm trying to keep emotion out of this.

[LA Muskie]

If it were up to me, I would move Xavier into a league with Georgetown, etc. the second the opportunity presents itself. In the meantime, assuming I could dictate what the A10 does, I would work to arrange the following:

WEST
Xavier
St. Louis
Butler
UD
Duquesne

EAST
Richmond
St. Joe's
GW
URI
VCU or George Mason
----------------------- Core surviving group above the line

Temple
UMass
Charlotte
----------------------- Pending exits due to football

SBU
............................ Bona given time to transition based on football departures.


Fordham and LaSalle are forced to write the A10 exit fee checks in the amount of $500k each. Once the checks clear the bank, they are taken out back and beaten with broom handles by the ADs of the remaining schools as they each are otherwise forced to chug a bottle of Thunderbird.

Obviously, I'm trying to keep emotion out of this.
I have every confidence that BoBo and Fr. Graham have seen this coming for a while. This could all go many different ways, but one way it *could* go is Xavier and Butler spearheading the creation of the best east coast/midwest non-football conference they can assemble. .

You are right, Temple, Charlotte and UMass are as good as gone. If not immediately, then soon thereafter. The world is going to be divided into 2: those who play FBS football, and those who do not. We can't qualify for the former, so we might as well lead with respect to the latter.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Dash's response makes too much sense for the A10 to consider it.

Our league has had over 10 years to deal with the bottom feeders in high school gyms and chose the status quo. If it hasn't happened in 10 years, its probably never going to happen. I don't think they have a gameplan about improving the league top to bottom. Aside from X and Temple, no one else has been consistent.

First opportunity X gets, I hope it cuts bait.

If Temple leaves, who could the A10 lure? Butler would probably choose the MVC over the A10 at that point.

[LA Muskie]

Dash's response makes too much sense for the A10 to consider it.

Our league has had over 10 years to deal with the bottom feeders in high school gyms and chose the status quo. If it hasn't happened in 10 years, its probably never going to happen. I don't think they have a gameplan about improving the league top to bottom. Aside from X and Temple, no one else has been consistent.

First opportunity X gets, I hope it cuts bait.

If Temple leaves, who could the A10 lure? Butler would probably choose the MVC over the A10 at that point.
I think this might finally be the impetus for BoBo to flex his muscles. We don't have to be the TX in all of this, but this is a basketball-first conference and if things pan out with Temple, Charlotte and UMass leaving we could legitimately say "do this or we are gone...you will have left us with no choice."

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I think this might finally be the impetus for BoBo to flex his muscles. We don't have to be the TX in all of this, but this is a basketball-first conference and if things pan out with Temple, Charlotte and UMass leaving we could legitimately say "do this or we are gone...you will have left us with no choice."

That's exactly the response I want from Bobo. The problem is we need a legitimate option in order to exercise that threat. X has put itself in a position of being one of the most desirable Bball only schools in the country.

He's probably on the phone with the Big East pres, members, and other schools like Butler constantly getting a feel of what may or may not happen. I just hope it works out

[Juice]

It wouldn't neccessarily make it better, but with the Big East losing Pitt and Syracuse, it is grasping at straws trying to stay together as a football conference.

Other schools mentioned going to the BE are Central Florida and the millitary academies. Those schools won't make the conference better either.

UCF adds the Orlando market and is probably as good as 50% of the conference in football.

[MHettel]

Bottom line is that the Big 12 is down to 8 teams, which is the minimum.
The Big East is down to 7.

SOMETHING MUST happen.

The Big East, in full blown survival mode, is trying to shore up by adding an 8th team, and frankly it makes sense for Temple as well, considering their current situation is the A-10.

But, if UConn ends up in the ACC (with or without Rutgers) then the BE is back to 6 or 7 teams.

I think the ball is in Texas' court right now. The Big 10 could take on as many as 4 more teams to get it to 16, and UT / OK (with OKState and TTech) look AWFULLY ATTRACTIVE right now. And, if you are Texas, your options are now: stay in the Big 12, with Oklahoma and 6 fairly unattractive members (Iowa St, TTech, OKState, Baylor, KSU, KU), or move to the SEC with one other member (WVU now?, or maybe Texas Tech or super long shot is Oklahoma but they are a package deal with OK State)....

Bottom line is that Texas has 2 options (Big 10 or SEC) that are 100000% more attractive than the Big 12. Once they pullout of the Big 12, then the BE and the scraps of the B12 are FORCED into a merger. BE football moved to the Big 12, BE basketball is left with the BE name and contracts and then it expands to strengthen itself as a basketball only conference.

[xudash]

A major problem for us, as well as Butler is departing from accrued NCAA Units from our respective conferences.

If the A10 front office is as bad as one of the A10 board's posters (from URI, so you can appreciate a fan of that school grasping for anything to keep the A10 relevant) you will see the first recommendation from the front office having to do with a freakin EXIT FEE!

The press release will read something like this - imagine Foster Brooks at the microphone:

The AAAAAAAAAAEYTIN recognizes that it has no cur...cour....coura....balls or leadershit and otherwise (hiccup; belch) sucks when it comes to taking pro-zaic...pro-active akshun to improve its position in the face of all the confluence...confurance re-arrangement that is taking place as I puk......speak.

Accordianly, to trap......keep......all of our congruous members walking a straaaaaaaayht line, we are imbibing.........we are invocaling an EXIT FEE in the amount of one billion one gazzillion dollars. WE thank the LossSalle president for arriving at that figure.

The next noise you hear is a thud, then Don Rickles and Dean Martin carrying Foster off the platform, laughing.

[muskiefan82]

Bottom line is that Texas has 2 options (Big 10 or SEC)

I think the Longhorn Network eliminates the Big 10 as an option. The Big10 Network won't deal with that mess.

[Kahns Krazy]

I think it is stupid that football and basketball conference affiliations are tied together. It doesn't work that way for hockey.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

I think it is stupid that football and basketball conference affiliations are tied together. It doesn't work that way for hockey.
This is true. What about other sports, such as baseball, volleyball, swimming, track, golf, etc. ?

[whitesox]

I think the ball is in Texas' court right now. The Big 10 could take on as many as 4 more teams to get it to 16, and UT / OK (with OKState and TTech) look AWFULLY ATTRACTIVE right now. And, if you are Texas, your options are now: stay in the Big 12, with Oklahoma and 6 fairly unattractive members (Iowa St, TTech, OKState, Baylor, KSU, KU), or move to the SEC with one other member (WVU now?, or maybe Texas Tech or super long shot is Oklahoma but they are a package deal with OK State)....

Bottom line is that Texas has 2 options (Big 10 or SEC) that are 100000% more attractive than the Big 12. Once they pullout of the Big 12, then the BE and the scraps of the B12 are FORCED into a merger. BE football moved to the Big 12, BE basketball is left with the BE name and contracts and then it expands to strengthen itself as a basketball only conference.

I don't think the Big 10 would take OK State or Texas Tech, which makes those moves more difficult.

And I think Texas is fine with the Big 12 as it currently stands -- maybe with 1-3 additions -- because of the Longhorn Network. They'd rather be in the Big 12 and keep all the money from that than join a conference and share revenues. I don't think Texas pushes for another conference unless they don't think the Big 12 will last.

Incidentally, that's why I think Oklahoma is more important. If Oklahoma decides to leave, Texas will be forced to do something as well.

[XU 87]

Temple used to play in the BE for football only. They got kicked out because they were so terrible. But I suspect that Villanova didn't and doesn't want Temple in for basketball. And since the BE already has the Phillly market for hoops via 'Nova, my guess is the rest of the league has no interest in Temple joining for hoops.

So why wouldn't Temple just join for football only, like they did in the past? It's good for the BE because they get a warm body for the league (and Temple has been better as of late). It's good for Temple because they play in what is probably still a better league than Conference USA and closer to home.

[Founding Father]

Temple used to play in the BE for football only. They got kicked out because they were so terrible. But I suspect that Villanova didn't and doesn't want Temple in for basketball. And since the BE already has the Phillly market for hoops via 'Nova, my guess is the rest of the league has no interest in Temple joining for hoops.

So why wouldn't Temple just join for football only, like they did in the past? It's good for the BE because they get a warm body for the league (and Temple has been better as of late). It's good for Temple because they play in what is probably still a better league than Conference USA and closer to home.

What happens though in say 36 months BE Football loses WVU, Louisville, UCONN and Rutgers. Does Temple ask the MAC to let them back in?

Temple might be better of just watching from the sidelines for now.

[LA Muskie]

And I think Texas is fine with the Big 12 as it currently stands -- maybe with 1-3 additions -- because of the Longhorn Network. They'd rather be in the Big 12 and keep all the money from that than join a conference and share revenues. I don't think Texas pushes for another conference unless they don't think the Big 12 will last.

Incidentally, that's why I think Oklahoma is more important. If Oklahoma decides to leave, Texas will be forced to do something as well.
All this talk about OK being the play is concocted -- and it's something TX has loved. The cards were always -- and still are -- in TX's hands. Renegotiate the LHN deal and the Big XII survives. Stand on their "rights" and it dies. The only question being whether it's a fast or slow death.

[whitesox]

All this talk about OK being the play is concocted -- and it's something TX has loved. The cards were always -- and still are -- in TX's hands. Renegotiate the LHN deal and the Big XII survives. Stand on their "rights" and it dies. The only question being whether it's a fast or slow death.

I kind of agree.

I think Texas wants the Big 12 to stay. But the Big 12 will only stay if the other schools in it decide to stay -- and the only reason it will fall apart is if Oklahoma leaves.

You're right in times of the long-term health -- Texas can convince everyone to stay by sharing money, and not sharing money will probably result in contentious relationships. But at the moment, that's not going to happen. Texas has laid down its terms: stay in the Big 12, but we're not sharing our money. They don't care (other than apparently preferring the Big 12) whether anyone accepts the terms -- they'll land on their feet either way -- but now it is on Oklahoma to decide whether it wants to accept those terms. Texas will choose its option based on that.

I guess the point is: Texas holds the power, but they won't be the first to move.

[Giacomazzi]

This is true. What about other sports, such as baseball, volleyball, swimming, track, golf, etc. ?

All Xavier sports compete in the Atlantic 10 Conference with the exception of Women's Golf, which is a member of the Colonial Athletic Association. This is because the A10 doesn't support women's golf, for whatever reason.

[muskiefan82]

All Xavier sports compete in the Atlantic 10 Conference with the exception of Women's Golf, which is a member of the Colonial Athletic Association. This is because the A10 doesn't support women's golf, for whatever reason.

I will file this in the "sh!t I didn't know today that will forever change.....well...nothing" file.

J/K That is actually something I had no idea about.

[xubrew]

I have a question regarding League invites.

Lets just say the basketball only schools in the Big East do not like the fact that the football schools are inviting crappy football teams to the conference and are diluting the quality of the basketball league.

Could the basketball teams vote not to accept these teams. Basically i'm asking if the basketball schools have a vote when it comes to inviting football teams.

If they do have a vote, they could form a pact to not allow anymore teams into the league to save football.

Not that this is something they would want to do, I am just trying to see what there strategic options are.

Yes, they do. The Big East bylaws state that when adding teams, more than 75% of the conference members have to approve, and that includes the basketball schools. I believe football can add affiliate members for football only, but they can't add full members.

A full member is a school who has a vote and a say in everything that goes on such as rules, revenue sharing, championship sites and formats, etc.

An affiliate member doesn't have a seat at the table, but is allowed to play a conference schedule in a certain sport as long as the full members say that it's okay. South Carolina and Kentucky both play men's soccer in conference USA, but they're not C-USA members.

In regards to Temple, they were never actually in the Big East in any official capacity. They just played a Big East football schedule because the full members allowed them to. I don't even think they had an equal share of the revenue. When people say they were kicked out, that's true to a point, but what really happened is that the Big East full members decided to not let them be an affiliate member anymore.

Now, the talk is of Temple becoming a full member. From an administrative standpoint, that's entirely different than before. East Carolina has also applied for membership. If more than 75% of the remaining full members vote them in, and that includes the basketball schools, they'll be invited.

[MCXU]

Yes, they do. The Big East bylaws state that when adding teams, more than 75% of the conference members have to approve, and that includes the basketball schools. I believe football can add affiliate members for football only, but they can't add full members.

A full member is a school who has a vote and a say in everything that goes on such as rules, revenue sharing, championship sites and formats, etc.

An affiliate member doesn't have a seat at the table, but is allowed to play a conference schedule in a certain sport as long as the full members say that it's okay. South Carolina and Kentucky both play men's soccer in conference USA, but they're not C-USA members.

In regards to Temple, they were never actually in the Big East in any official capacity. They just played a Big East football schedule because the full members allowed them to. I don't even think they had an equal share of the revenue. When people say they were kicked out, that's true to a point, but what really happened is that the Big East full members decided to not let them be an affiliate member anymore.

Now, the talk is of Temple becoming a full member. From an administrative standpoint, that's entirely different than before. East Carolina has also applied for membership. If more than 75% of the remaining full members vote them in, and that includes the basketball schools, they'll be invited.

Somebody please rep XUBREW for me, that is the most complete answer I have ever seen.

I would have also accepted Yes, Maybe and Sometimes.

[Fireball]

Somebody please rep XUBREW for me, that is the most complete answer I have ever seen.

I would have also accepted Yes, Maybe and Sometimes.

Reps given. Thanks for the explanation, xubrew.

I'd obviously hate to see the A-10 lose Temple, but I don't think the A-10 dies without Temple. Now, lose Temple, Charlotte, UMass, and a few other teams, and the Xavier becomes the Memphis of the conference. It's not a horrible position to be in, but no doubt we'd like for the conference to be somewhat more competitive than C-USA.

[LA Muskie]

I'd obviously hate to see the A-10 lose Temple, but I don't think the A-10 dies without Temple. Now, lose Temple, Charlotte, UMass, and a few other teams, and the Xavier becomes the Memphis of the conference. It's not a horrible position to be in, but no doubt we'd like for the conference to be somewhat more competitive than C-USA.

The A-10 doesn't die with the loss of Temple, but without a comparable replacement it would be greatly weakened in basketball.

Add to that the fact that the expansion is going to make OOC scheduling more difficult, and it would be a hit to us. Not that it couldn't be overcome, but it would be a hit nonetheless.

[xudash]

The A-10 doesn't die with the loss of Temple, but without a comparable replacement it would be greatly weakened in basketball.

Add to that the fact that the expansion is going to make OOC scheduling more difficult, and it would be a hit to us. Not that it couldn't be overcome, but it would be a hit nonetheless.

Agreed. In a world where the A10 should be shedding truly crappy programs like LaSalle and Fordham, it cannot afford to risk losing a Temple. I would go so far as to suggest that, were it to lose Temple, it would lose any chance of attracting a solid replacement.

[SixFig]

Would Butler accept an invite to replace Temple?

[xavierj]

Would Butler accept an invite to replace Temple?

How about VCU and George Mason. They would help.

[nuts4xu]

UCF adds the Orlando market and is probably as good as 50% of the conference in football.

Which doesn't improve the league, it only adds a team that is as good as half of a crap league. It may hold the status quo, and enable BE football to survive but it will not enhance or improve the quality of football.

If they were going to improve the league, they would need to add someone that is as good as the best teams in the BE. There just aren't any of those type schools beating the doors down trying to play football in that league.

[GoMuskies]

USF has improved tremendously since joinging the Big East, and I'm sure that's the same model they'd be shooting for with UCF (big school in a good market in fertile recruiting territory). Not particularly confident it would work out.

ECU was ripe to be a very solid asset for a league like the Big East back in the '90s/early '00s. They have a surprisingly large and rabid fanbase and had some damned good teams. Unfortunately for them, they fell on some seriously hard times and have not recovered. I saw that they applied for Big East membership, but I don't see that as being particularly helpful to the cause.

[xubrew]

I believe it was only about two years ago when ECU became everyone's favorite BCS buster of the moment. They opened the season with wins over West Virginia and Virginia Tech and were ranked #12th just two weeks in...or something like that.

....and we really haven't heard from them since. There have been singular moments in time when ECU was on the map, but nothing has been sustained since the late 1990s/early 00s like GO pointed out.

To be fair, they've been solid. In the categories of Good Teams and Bad Teams, they're usually a good team. It's just that they haven't been nationally significant since being ranked #12 so early a few years ago.

Here is the kicker about the Big East. You often hear people say THEY might take the Big East's BCS bid away. You need to stop and think about who THEY are. The Big East is part of the "THEY."

I don't follow football nearly as closely as I do basketball (to be honest, my preference is actually FCS football when it comes to being a fan). The last time I looked at the BCS bylaws, they were very loosely written and appeared to imply certain things in regards to on field success, but not actually state anything specifically.

This isn't specific, and it is just a paraphrase, but I remember it being somethign along the lines of "Each conference will be evaluated over a four year period based on the number of teams in BCS Rankings, and overall conference BCS ranking. If a conference falls below a certain level, their status will BE EVAULATED."

It didn't say eliminated. It really didn't say who would be doing the evaluating or what the emphasis of said evaluation would be. If those that make-up the BCS are the ones who evaluate, then the Big East will have a say in their own evaluation. Does that sound outrageous?? Well, all the more reason to think that may be the case.

I've heard and read all over teh place that the Big East can't justify keeping it's bid. The unfortunate thing is that they don't have to justify it. What they have to do to keep it isn't clearly stated. How someone else may earn one isn't clearly stated. All we know is that "THEY" will evaluate it. As best I can tell, the Big East IS "THEY." Don't be surprised that after evaluating themselves, they determine that they will keep their bid.

The BCS is to football what genital warts are to genitals. (footnote Fake Dan Beebe).

[waggy]

Standards for future BCS automatic qualification (http://www.bcsfootball.org/news/story?id=4819597)

[anXUfan]

Looks pretty fuzzy to me. I could see the Big East holding its slot for quite some time.

[SixFig]

Well Temple is MURDERING Maryland right now.

Maybe this whole football thing will work out for them

[CleXU]

Pitino is saying that the Big East needs to add Temple immediately and YTG is tweeting that people need to read Pitino's blog to understand the Big East's situation and how the Big East should proceed...

http://www.rickpitino.com/rpitino/articledetail.aspx?ArticleId=2526&Id=47

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Pitino is saying that the Big East needs to add Temple immediately and YTG is tweeting that the people need to read Pitino's blog to understand the Big East's situation and how the Big East should proceed...

http://www.rickpitino.com/rpitino/articledetail.aspx?ArticleId=2526&Id=47

Ugh. Temple leaving would be absolutely disastrous for the A10.

[waggy]

I guess Louisville didn't get the call.

Or Pitino's gonna look like an even bigger ass if they do.

[bleedXblue]

Wouldn't be surprised at all to see Temple go.

Logistically it makes a lot of sense......

I'm sure the BE is looking for bigger names for football since Temple is a virtual unknown.

I still think they (BE) waits this out to see if the SEC is going to add another team to get to 14.......you would almost think that they would have to ?

WVU, UL and TCU all make sense to me.

I've heard Missouri mentioned as well.

[xubrew]

Temple and Nova have an interesting history, they've always played, but administratively they've continued to step on each other's toes.

First, I believe it was Nova that kept Temple from becoming full members.

Then Nova wanted to bring football up to FBS, but the league said they needed a suitable stadium. The reached out to Temple in regards to sharing the link, and Temple said no presumably (at least partially) out of spite. Nova was unable to promote its football team.

Now Temple is being courted by the Big East again. How is Nova going to vote this time??

[GoMuskies]

I don't think Temple is being "courted". That sounds far too kind considering the circumstances.

Temple is the fat ugly girl that is still available at 2:00 am, and the Big East is the (fat, ugly) drunk guy who has struck out with all the pretty girls all night.

This isn't a pretty situation for any involved.

[xudash]

I don't think Temple is being "courted". That sounds far too kind considering the circumstances.

Temple is the fat ugly girl that is still available at 2:00 am, and the Big East is the (fat, ugly) drunk guy who has struck out with all the pretty girls all night.

This isn't a pretty situation for any involved.

+1

Loved this.

[xavierj]

Slimy Rick wants to invite Temple for football and basketball and wants to add the academies for football only. Yeah that's exactly what they need. Like 30 total members, some play sports in some of the leagues and not the others. I think the Big 12 still plucks a couple and the ACC will pluck a couple more. Then the basketball schools will finally wise up and look out for themselves and move on to their true identities.

[GoMuskies]

Louisville basketball coaches have a history of letting their selfish motives get in the way of a good thing for that school.

In the late '80s/early '90s, the Metro consisted of VaTech, FSU, Louisville, UC, Tulane, Memphis, Southern Miss and South Carolina. The era of major independent football was coming to an end, and just about everyone knew it. There was a proposal to put together the first "superconference" by adding Miami, Penn State, West Virginia, Pitt, Syracuse and maybe Boston College to the existing Metro schools and having it be a football conference as well. I'm not saying it would have happened in any event, but a big reason it failed was that Denny Crum wasn't interested in it. His Cards were the 1,000 pound gorilla in the Metro and were coming out of a decade in which they were the preeminent basketball program in the country. Happily for him, his AD was one of his former assistant coaches, and he didn't support the plan either. I imagine that Howard Schnellenberger was none too pleased (and left for Oklahoma when he was unable to pull a similar power play to keep Louisville out of C-USA).

Think Louisville would be better off today if they had aligned themselves with that group back in the late '80s? Think UC, Tulane, Memphis and USM people aren't pissed out of their minds that never happened? The college landscape sure would look a lot different.

[Masterofreality]

There is a meeting of the full Big Least membership today. They are voting on whether to offer Temple a full membership in all sports.

I would guess that they would probably accept if offered.

The A-10 can't get rid of LaSuck, but they lose Temple. Now no one in Philly will give a sheet about this league.

Xavier will have a cakewalk from now on, however.

[xavierj]

There is a meeting of the full Big Least membership today. They are voting on whether to offer Temple a full membership in all sports.

I would guess that they would probably accept if offered.

The A-10 can't get rid of LaSuck, but they lose Temple. Now no one in Philly will give a sheet about this league.

Xavier will have a cakewalk from now on, however.

If the A-10 is going to be proactive and if Temple is leaving, they need to look to add VCU and George Mason.

[Masterofreality]

If the A-10 is going to be proactive and if Temple is leaving, they need to look to add VCU and George Mason.

Hell, why not get Old Dominion too and go all the way to 16. Then you have two 8 team divisions?

You would then have a hometown team where the league office is and inner city rivalries with Richmond/VCU and GW/George Mason.

"The Battle of the Georges". Hmmmm. Doesn't exactly stir high emotions.

Or add Butler as your 16th team to balance the east and west divisions? Hell, that may be a better league than the decimated Big Least.

[Masterofreality]

Lets see:

A-10 West:
Xavier
udump
St Louis
Butler
Dookcane
Charlotte
Olean Welding Academy
VCU

A-10 East
UMess
Rhody
F-M
LaSuck
GW
St. Joes
George Mason/Old Dominion
Richmond

With Larranaga going to Miami, I don't think that G Mason will be that good for much longer. I'd rather have ODU.

[xubrew]

Richmond and GW may not be too thrilled with VCU, Mason or ODU. Richmond does continue to play those teams, but things were pretty sour when they left.

I can't imagine anyone getting more support from the league as a whole than Butler. I don't think it would even be remotely close.

[GoMuskies]

Dump LaSuck and Fordham. Do not add more mid-majors.

[Titanxman04]

Lets see:

A-10 West:
Xavier
udump
St Louis
Butler
Dookcane
Charlotte
Olean Welding Academy
VCU

A-10 East
UMess
Rhody
F-M
LaSuck
GW
St. Joes
George Mason/Old Dominion
Richmond

With Larranaga going to Miami, I don't think that G Mason will be that good for much longer. I'd rather have ODU.

But the coach from ODU shaved his mustache, which DEFINITELY means they won't be good for much longer.

This whole conference re-alignment is starting to become difficult. So many factors to consider.

[GuyFawkes38]

There is a meeting of the full Big Least membership today. They are voting on whether to offer Temple a full membership in all sports.

I would guess that they would probably accept if offered.

The A-10 can't get rid of LaSuck, but they lose Temple. Now no one in Philly will give a sheet about this league.

Xavier will have a cakewalk from now on, however.

Not doubting you. But do you have any links. A few google searches doesn't bring up anything except that Pitino wants Temple.

It would suck, but certainly not the end of the world.

But it is easy to come to the conclusion that X really is NOT in a great position with all this conference realignment stuff. X doesn't have a football team and UC right next door. Not a great combo.

[bobbiemcgee]

Not doubting you. But do you have any links. A few google searches doesn't bring up anything except that Pitino wants Temple.

It would suck, but certainly not the end of the world.

But it is easy to come to the conclusion that X really is NOT in a great position with all this conference realignment stuff. X doesn't have a football team and UC right next door. Not a great combo.

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/01/temple-on-verge-of-big-east-invite/

[Masterofreality]

Meanwhile,

Those Temple Owls are getting their ass kicked in Philadelphia by Toledo 22-13 at halftime today.

Al Golden did a great job resurrecting the Temple program, but he's gone. Don't expect Temple to stay good for much longer. Once Golden's recruited players are gone, they'll be back to crap.

Just what the Big Least needs- another crap to mediocre team.

This is comical to see the Big Greased thrash about.

[X-Fan]

Meanwhile,

Those Temple Owls are getting their ass kicked in Philadelphia by Toledo 22-13 at halftime today.

Al Golden did a great job resurrecting the Temple program, but he's gone. Don't expect Temple to stay good for much longer. Once Golden's recruited players are gone, they'll be back to crap.

Just what the Big Least needs- another crap to mediocre team.

This is comical to see the Big Greased thrash about.

Hey now, don't hate on my Rockets. UT is favored to win the MAC this year and they showed it by choking out Temple at their place today. Do not let their now 2-3 record fool you. Toledo lost at O$U by 5, played Boise tough for 3 quarters, and got screwed out of a win at Syracuse last week. Temple has a good team this year...they beat the crap out of Maryland last week, and barely lost at Penn State. UT is the first team to score more than 14 points against them (they did that in the 1st quarter ;)) this year.

I think Temple has positioned itself to be able to move up to a bigger football conference. They offer a very attractive package both athletically and academically.

[Masterofreality]

Actually, no hate at all.

I love the fact that Toledo went in there and kicked ass. I wish all the MAC teams could beat any Big Least team they play. Toledo got abjectly screwed by the Big East refs in Syracuse last week.

Here's my overriding point...No mattter how much the Big Greased teams get pumped by ESPN, they are not BCS bowl worthy. Period. The league will only get worse in their desperate attempt to survive.

[bleedXblue]

I'll be surprised if this pans out......now. It might happen later in the process after the dust settles....but now ? I just dont see it.

Why would Temple hitch it's tralier to a conference that could potentially be losing another 3-4 teams ? If UL, WVU, UC , UCONN and Rutgers are all still possibly looking to move, Temple should wait until they know for sure what they are commiting themselves to.

Should be interesting to say the least.

[GuyFawkes38]

I'll be surprised if this pans out......now. It might happen later in the process after the dust settles....but now ? I just dont see it.

Why would Temple hitch it's tralier to a conference that could potentially be losing another 3-4 teams ? If UL, WVU, UC , UCONN and Rutgers are all still possibly looking to move, Temple should wait until they know for sure what they are commiting themselves to.

Should be interesting to say the least.

Point taken.

But anything is better than the MAC (even a Big East in flux).

Who knows. A Temple move still doesn't appear concrete. Just rumor stage.

[MHettel]

Also, how oculd UC, UofL, etc vote in good faith to include Temple if they are exploring options out of teh back door.

I think including Temple is just the "front" for getting the football schools in a room to openly commit to each other.

[xudash]

Also, how oculd UC, UofL, etc vote in good faith to include Temple if they are exploring options out of teh back door.

I think including Temple is just the "front" for getting the football schools in a room to openly commit to each other.

They aren't going to commit to each other in the most meaningful way: a damaging exit fee. They just aren't going to sign up for that when the key ones among them believe they'll still land on their feet in a more stable BCS conference.

I"m looking at this as objectively as I can: the BE, as a BCS level football conference, is finished. Finished. Their is not one team in the Western Hemisphere that can bail them out at this point. The only thing that could bail them out is if the Big XII still finds a way to blow itself up. That does not appear likely at present.

So not only are there no bona fide replacements to bring the BE football legitimacy, but the SEC is still out there, readying to pull the trigger on program #14. When they do, it will have either a direct effect (a BE team; I doubt that will happen) or an indirect effect (a raid of another BCS conference; most likely the ACC or perhaps the Big XII) which will leave the targeted conference to back fill with one of the remaining BE members.

One less chair on the deck, and the turntable is slowing down.

[X-band '01]

With an exit fee of $25 million, I don't think the ACC needs to worry about any of their programs being raided anytime soon.

[xudash]

With an exit fee of $25 million, I don't think the ACC needs to worry about any of their programs being raided anytime soon.

Good point.

I forgot that they got that done already.

So a direct raid of the BE, unless they poach a Big XII member (unless the Big XII has already sewn up its exit fee, which I doubt, given the LHN mess that they're still dealing with).

[LA Muskie]

With an exit fee of $25 million, I don't think the ACC needs to worry about any of their programs being raided anytime soon.
I'd like to see that in writing. Much like Vick's $100 million contract, I suspect the reality is far less than the sound-bite.

[GoMuskies]

Why would Temple hitch it's tralier to a conference

Have things gotten so bad in the Big East that some are questioning whether awful Temple would accept an invite?!? Wow.

[xubrew]

I"m looking at this as objectively as I can: the BE, as a BCS level football conference, is finished. Finished. Their is not one team in the Western Hemisphere that can bail them out at this point. The only thing that could bail them out is if the Big XII still finds a way to blow itself up. That does not appear likely at present.

As has been mentioned before, the Big East may not be able to justify keeping the bid, but that doesn't mean they won't keep the bid. There is nothing in writing that specifically states what must happen for a league to lose it's bid. It makes mention of their status "being evaluated," but that's it. It doesn't say specifically what is being evaluated or who is doing the evaluating.

I think the Big East keeps its bid simply because it's not stated anywhere how a conference loses a bid.

[GoMuskies]

That and because, by the numbers used to evaluate BCS bids, the Big East has been every bit as good as the ACC. Especially if TCU comes in, and the Big East gets to use TCU's past records.

[xubrew]

That and because, by the numbers used to evaluate BCS bids, the Big East has been every bit as good as the ACC. Especially if TCU comes in, and the Big East gets to use TCU's past records.

They would.

When it comes simply to the quality of football, Syracuse and Pitt aren't that big of a loss. It's a loss in regards to brand names and markets, but they both had lousy football teams, especially Syracuse. If they lose those two and add TCU and either Temple and/or ECU, it's an upgrade as far as the overall quality of football goes.

[GoMuskies]

Temple won't be an upgrade over anyone. They may not suck right now, but they will again soon enough. I'd much, much rather have ECU in the Big East.

[Juice]

Temple won't be an upgrade over anyone. They may not suck right now, but they will again soon enough. I'd much, much rather have ECU in the Big East.

I expect a dropoff at ECU as well since Skip Holtz left.

[bleedXblue]

I see Temple as a nice basketball addition, but a big risk on the football side.

Right now, the league should be looking to add depth and quality in football.......

I know there's not much out there right now, but I would have to think that ECU, AF and Navy are all better options than Temple.

Add to that Villanova being potentially upset at adding another Philly team and Temple doesn't quite look all that attractive.

I could be wrong, but I see Temple being added only if better options on the football side don't work out.

[GoMuskies]

I expect a dropoff at ECU as well since Skip Holtz left.

Maybe, but ECU at least has a rabid fan base and some football tradition. Temple has neither.

[xubrew]

I like Temple. I think they're an asset to the conference. Having said that, we rarely play them more than once a year anyways. So, if they leave the conference and we keep them on the OOC schedule, what's the difference??

That's my problem with bloated conferences. It's not a conference. It's a cluster. Temple might as well be an out of conference game.

[xudash]

I like Temple. I think they're an asset to the conference. Having said that, we rarely play them more than once a year anyways. So, if they leave the conference and we keep them on the OOC schedule, what's the difference??

That's my problem with bloated conferences. It's not a conference. It's a cluster. Temple might as well be an out of conference game.

What's the difference!

You make it read like every team in the A10 is equally valuable. They contribute to the A10's success by being a member of the A10. When they leave the league's OOC W:L record is going to go further into the crapper, making the A10 back up in league standing and most likely further weakening our seeding.

If we're going to be in a conference, we have to be in a reasonably strong one. The A10 teeters on being regarded as a strong conference. Not so much if it loses Temple.

[xubrew]

What's the difference!

You make it read like every team in the A10 is equally valuable. They contribute to the A10's success by being a member of the A10. When they leave the league's OOC W:L record is going to go further into the crapper, making the A10 back up in league standing and most likely further weakening our seeding.

If we're going to be in a conference, we have to be in a reasonably strong one. The A10 teeters on being regarded as a strong conference. Not so much if it loses Temple.

Well, my intention was to make it read that since XU only plays them once anyway, their impact on Xavier's overall profile will be the same whether they're in the conference or not if they remain on the OOC schedule.

Temple's absence would have dropped the A-10's overall W/L OOC record from 58.6% down to 57.6%. That is a drop. I'm not saying Temple isn't an asset to the A-10. I'm saying that their impact on Xavier's profile is identical if they remain on the schedule.

[waggy]

I'm saying that their impact on Xavier's profile is identical if they remain on the schedule.

I don't think is true because they play everyone else in the conference 15, 16 (whatever the number is) times, and so thier SOS has a greater bearing than just as an OOC opponent.

[Masterofreality]

Well, my intention was to make it read that since XU only plays them once anyway, their impact on Xavier's overall profile will be the same whether they're in the conference or not if they remain on the OOC schedule.

Temple's absence would have dropped the A-10's overall W/L OOC record from 58.6% down to 57.6%. That is a drop. I'm not saying Temple isn't an asset to the A-10. I'm saying that their impact on Xavier's profile is identical if they remain on the schedule.

The real difference is that Temple is a yearly threat, and usually accomplishes, to make the NCAA Tournament and advance. That adds credits and money to the league till from the tournament cash pool.

F-M and LaSuck add nothing and there is no guarantee that another school will emerge to take over Temple's history of success. Losing a good contributor and leaving the scofflaws is not a good recipe for long term success.

[xubrew]

I don't think is true because they play everyone else in the conference 15, 16 (whatever the number is) times, and so thier SOS has a greater bearing than just as an OOC opponent.

The change still won't be all that drastic, especially if you replace them with someone who is average or above average.

If Butler is a candidate to replace them, there won't be that big of a change. If VCU or ODU replace them, the change still isn't so drastic that it sinks the league.

Temple is an asset. I just don't think their departure is a doomsday scenario.

[LA Muskie]

The change still won't be all that drastic, especially if you replace them with someone who is average or above average.

If Butler is a candidate to replace them, there won't be that big of a change. If VCU or ODU replace them, the change still isn't so drastic that it sinks the league.

Temple is an asset. I just don't think their departure is a doomsday scenario.
As has often been said, perception is often more important than reality. The loss of Temple would hurt in that regard.

That said, I agree that Temple leaving, by itself, isn't doomsday for the conference. Temple leaving, with the prospect of UMass, Charlotte, and Richmond also leaving down the road, is a bigger problem.

Adding Butler would certainly help. But I'm not sure the conference would be all that attractive to Butler. I live nowhere near Indy, but is there a sense that Butler would be all that interested in the A-10?

Adding VCU or ODU wouldn't be bad additions, whether Temple leaves or not. Might as well be proactive. We don't play a balanced schedule anyway, so the additional numbers won't affect much.

[bleedXblue]

We'll have a real good idea in about 2 weeks where this whole thing is going. It pretty much hinges on what Missouri does at this point. If that domino falls and they move to the SEC, the B12 will be looking to poach the Big East and it will be a free for all. I see at least 2 Big East schools getting added along with SMU and possibly TCU. If Missouri stays, talk is that they will add either 1 or 3 teams...to get to 10 or 12.

[waggy]

Villanova got the other bball schools to vote against Temple as an all-sports member according to Temple boards. Temple boards on fire with hatred for Villanova.

Big 5 probably a casualty of this. Too much bad blood.

[GuyFawkes38]

I'd be thrilled if Temple is, in fact, staying. They might not show up to games. But it's a large school with a passionate alumni base. And they win.

But I feel bad for them. They've got a Villanova problem. We've got a UC problem.

[Masterofreality]

The Big Zombie is so desperate now that anyone who is even invited should think thrice.

Now Air Force is having doubts because Navy is backing away. The Big Least is down to " mid - major" football schools according to an AP story this morning.

Meanwhile SucKS has NOBODY calling them. There is NO mention of them in any story.

The Borecats to the MAC. Perfect. They can continue that long rivalry with the Redhawks.

[DC Muskie]

Villanova got the other bball schools to vote against Temple as an all-sports member according to Temple boards. Temple boards on fire with hatred for Villanova.

Big 5 probably a casualty of this. Too much bad blood.

If the five Temple fans are surprised by this action, then they are truly stupid.

[xubrew]

Villanova got the other bball schools to vote against Temple as an all-sports member according to Temple boards. Temple boards on fire with hatred for Villanova.

Big 5 probably a casualty of this. Too much bad blood.

I can't decide which is the most entertaining...

Boston College/UConn

Texas/TAMU

Temple/Nova

You have BC's AD basically bragging about how they are keeping UConn out. This is spite for seven years ago when BC underwent a lawsuit spearheaded by UConn when they left the BE. That lawsuit was out of spite because BC was leaving and didn't tell anyone. Good stuff. It's like pro wrestling. There's much more to it, but those are the highlights.

Temple/Nova is great as well. Temple wants full membership several years ago, and Nova blocks it. To add insult to injury, Temple would also no longer be an affiliate member for football. Then Nova wants to go to div1, but needs a stadium. They want to use the Linc, but Temple says no. Nova can't move up. I could be wrong about this, but it is the only example in the history of the NCAA where a full member was denied participation in a sport that is sponsored by their own league.

Now Temple wants into the BE again....and Nova blocks it....again. That's great stuff too.

I think everyone knows the LHN/Texas/TAMU saga. Now Texas is saying they won't schedule TAMU in football until at least 2018.

Georgetown and Maryland have a nice little riff going, but it's nothing like the above three.

This leads me to ask the following question of our esteemed athletic directors and college presidents who are all a part of this circus.....

WHAT GRADE ARE YOU PEOPLE IN???!!!

[XUFan09]

I can't decide which is the most entertaining...

Boston College/UConn

Texas/TAMU

Temple/Nova

You have BC's AD basically bragging about how they are keeping UConn out. This is spite for seven years ago when BC underwent a lawsuit spearheaded by UConn when they left the BE. That lawsuit was out of spite because BC was leaving and didn't tell anyone. Good stuff. It's like pro wrestling. There's much more to it, but those are the highlights.

Temple/Nova is great as well. Temple wants full membership several years ago, and Nova blocks it. To add insult to injury, Temple would also no longer be an affiliate member for football. Then Nova wants to go to div1, but needs a stadium. They want to use the Linc, but Temple says no. Nova can't move up. I could be wrong about this, but it is the only example in the history of the NCAA where a full member was denied participation in a sport that is sponsored by their own league.

Now Temple wants into the BE again....and Nova blocks it....again. That's great stuff too.

I think everyone knows the LHN/Texas/TAMU saga. Now Texas is saying they won't schedule TAMU in football until at least 2018.

Georgetown and Maryland have a nice little riff going, but it's nothing like the above three.

This leads me to ask the following question of our esteemed athletic directors and college presidents who are all a part of this circus.....

WHAT GRADE ARE YOU PEOPLE IN???!!!

Haha public reps!

[WCWIII]

Temple's absence would have dropped the A-10's overall W/L OOC record from 58.6% down to 57.6%. That is a drop. I'm not saying Temple isn't an asset to the A-10. I'm saying that their impact on Xavier's profile is identical if they remain on the schedule.

I don't think is true because they play everyone else in the conference 15, 16 (whatever the number is) times, and so thier SOS has a greater bearing than just as an OOC opponent.

Just looking at this thread after the Big East invites. Then I saw some of the previous discussion and I was curious what would happen to Xavier's RPI last year if there was no Temple in the A10. A little surprising ...

If Temple's games didn't count towards the RPI, it turns out xubrew is correct. To four decimal places, Xavier's RPI would not change (by chance). We lose our one win vs Temple. However, most of the other A10 teams lost to Temple and so they would have a better winning percentage without Temple; hence, Xavier's OWP would go up. There are so many games involved in the opponenent's opponent's winning percentage, that it's impact is minimal in the 4th decimal place of the overall RPI.

When I did the same thing for dropping Fordham's games, our RPI rank last year would have actually dropped (only one place). Turns out, that our SOS improves by having a team that everyone else in the A10 can beat up on.

Temple is one of the finest A10 members, and if it were to leave the A10, it's impact would be more than just the numbers.

[waggy]

Below is a link to the X page of RPI Forecast. Scroll down to see the weight each opponent has on an individual team basis. Notice that conference opponents weight on a teams RPI more than OOC opponents in every single case. Which is kind of a Duh statement, since everyone in a conference are common opponents. The teams we played twice weight the most. And we all know that the RPI can be gamed by all members of a conference by scheduling to ensure a high OOC win percentage. Is the impact really all that substantial? I don't know, but it does exist.

http://www.rpiforecast.com/teams/Xavier.html

[xubrew]

Below is a link to the X page of RPI Forecast. Scroll down to see the weight each opponent has on an individual team basis. Notice that conference opponents weight on a teams RPI more than OOC opponents in every single case. Which is kind of a Duh statement, since everyone in a conference are common opponents. The teams we played twice weight the most. And we all know that the RPI can be gamed by all members of a conference by scheduling to ensure a high OOC win percentage. Is the impact really all that substantial? I don't know, but it does exist.

http://www.rpiforecast.com/teams/Xavier.html

It exists, but in the grand scheme of things it isn't THAT big of a deal.

My point wasn't to say that Temple was not an asset. They are. My only point was that if the A10 loses Temple, and Xavier continues to schedule them, the overall impact on Xavier's profile is virtually zero. Xavier would still have no problems establishing itself as a strong team. Even if the RPI drops a few points, there really isn't any difference between a 20 and a 17 in and of itself....and the drop in RPI wouldn't even be that big.

[waggy]

It exists, but in the grand scheme of things it isn't THAT big of a deal.

My point wasn't to say that Temple was not an asset. They are. My only point was that if the A10 loses Temple, and Xavier continues to schedule them, the overall impact on Xavier's profile is virtually zero. Xavier would still have no problems establishing itself as a strong team. Even if the RPI drops a few points, there really isn't any difference between a 20 and a 17 in and of itself....and the drop in RPI wouldn't even be that big.

I want to agree that it's not that big of a deal. I was really just pointing out that there is a difference in weights for conference vs. non-conference opponents, and they are not identical (your descriptor).

I used to like to crunch these numbers, but I'm too lazy anymore, but I do think these numbers come down to many decimal places and it can affect a teams rank and a conference rank. Remember when we used to be a bubble team? I'm pretty confident this minutia matters then.