Conference carousel to start spinning again?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

NYTImes guy that broke the Syr/Pitt story has tweeted a report where OU is willing to stay in Big 12 if changes made...new commissioner, Texas backing up on the LHN, etc.

http://newsok.com/article/3605958

What fun!!

Sounds like a blast. Who wouldn't want to repeat all this next year?

[XUFan09]

The topic starter has a source he says is involved in the day to day operation of Xavier basketball, informing him that the two Kansas schools are joining the Big East.
Free advice: Get a new "reliable source."
Here is the reality, from media types in the Big 12 area.
1) Texas, Texas Tech. Oklahoma, and Oklahoma State are finalizing their entrance into the Pac 12. Done! Proof is the Board of Regents at Texas and Oklahoma have given their Presidents full authority to "do what is best." Fact: Oklahoma cannot go with out Oklahoma State, nor can Texas go without Texas Tech (State Legs, ya know)
2) The two Kansas schools are not "joining" the Big East. They will be part of the merger of the four orphans (Iowa State and Baylor the other two). Those four will bring aboard Louisville, Cincinnati, Houston, TCU, West Virginia, and Memphis to form a ten team "Big 12" and retain their BCS slot.
3) Missouri will join the SEC. They (the SEC) need one member to be at 14. WVa would love to be that entry, but $$$ dictate it will be Missouri (St Louis and Kansas City TV market and a state population of six million top Huntington, Morgantown, and Charleston and the rest of the hills and valleys by millions.
4) UConn, Rutgers, will be the 15th and 16th teams in the ACC.
5) So, the Big East is left with eight members, all of whom are basketball only. That is where teams join up, and the only question is what number of schools does the Big East want to be at? I think, since for a long time they themselves have mumbled about sixteen being too many, the number will be 12 or 14, the former being the best operative number from a scheduling standout.
6) That brings us to who gets an admission ticket. Xavier and Butler will be the first two choices and unambitiously approved.
7. Who else? Dayton thinks they are "automatic" and that ain't so. The Big East will opt for UMass and URI first (they offset the mid-west Xavier-Butler factor). Charlotte will want to join, but the Big East knows well that it is just a matter of time before Charlotte jumps elsewhere with its new D-1 football program.
8) The Big Ten, smug as it can be, will now regret not getting Rutgers and Missouri in their next go-round with the TV people (numbers matter and the ACC ate 'em up.)
9) I sure hope everything develops as I think ... and that Dayton gets left out of the new Big East. They'll whine and cry, but it will be sweet revenge to say adios just like they screwed us when they jumped to the Great Midwest and in essence killed the MCC.

In defense of the OP, he never said "joining." He said "invited" and he included the possibility of KU/KSU declining the invite and what that would mean for Xavier. His source hasn't proven good or bad yet.

[xubrew]

Well, yes and no. The media money is because of football, not basketball. That's not to say there isn't a share of the spend on basketball, but the real money is paid for the right to broadcast the football games.

As for Syracuse and Pitt, despite their recent results both have programs with a history of success, both have maintained their fan-bases to a large extent, and both bring relatively large media markets. PLUS they are stellar basketball programs added to a conference that probably makes a greater proportionate share of its media money from basketball (but still less so than football).

Syracuse and Pitt were perfect additions to the ACC. And what I like most about the ACC is that it knows what it is, and what it is not. It won't ever be the #1 football conference, but it will be in play. And that basketball league. Wow. Just wow. Adding Syracuse and Pitt (and likely UConn) to that mix? Down the road, they could probably make PPV channel for in-conference games (much like the NFL Sunday Ticket) and make a killing. I'd watch those conference games over just about anything else.

LA, I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying. I am pointing out that at the end of the day those eight schools without FBS football are still full Big East members. The conference cannot disband without their say so. I was merely disagreeing with the notion that it made more sense for the Big Twelve to swallow the Big East. It doesn't. The remaining full Big East members would probably rather have the Big Twelve come to them, but even that can't happen if the eight basketball schools do not approve. Those eight schools are very key players that are being overlooked. Had ND, Nova, Gtown, etc not given the green light for Louisville, Cincinnati and South Florida to come on board last time, it never would have happened. That's one of the reasons that Marquette and DePaul also came on board. They wanted an even balance between the football and basketball schools and they were in a position to make it happen.

I'm not saying the Big East is stable. It isn't. I just don't think it's quite as unstable as the current Big Twelve. I also don't think anyone can say it is all about football when eight (well, seven plus ND) key players don't even have football teams at the FBS level...or at all in some cases.

[xubrew]

Can Louisville and WV still join?

UC, UL and WVU would get the league back to twelve.

[GoMuskies]

UC, UL and WVU would get the league back to twelve.

Can you imagine what a break that would be for those three? Think you're getting completely hosed and end up in a league with OK, OK State and TX instead (for now). It would be great if that's the way it works out...especially if the Big XII takes TCU instead of UC to get to 12.

[STL_XUfan]

Apparently Mizzou "leaked" the SEC invite information to try and smoke out an offer from the Big Ten as an option.

Awesome, because this strategy has worked so well for them in the past. Seriously I am just going to cut all internet and phone lines going out of Columbia.

[Founding Father]

UC, UL and WVU would get the league back to twelve.

So could BYU, TCU and WVU. Not sure what UC brings to the party.

[muskienick]

What's the ideal size if we did end up in a re-shuffled BE?

I know 9 sounds good to play everybody twice. 12 sounds good with 2 divisions, play your guys twice, the others once.

But if football driven conferences like the ACC get to 16, does that become the ideal size for a basketball only conference...TV time, markets, etc.?

Just get the best available programs that are not interested in having FBS/BCS football Conference aspirations and you're in good shape. I always liked nine for the reason you gave above. It makes a totally level playing field for all members since you play every other member home and away. Furthermore, it is a chance to weed out those unwilling or unable to compete at the highest levels and, let's face it, it's time to forget loyalties and longtime buddies and create the best possible Conference you can. You have only one chance to make that happen. So do it now screwing football at every turn!

Georgetown is definitely in. St. John's is in. Once Villanova wakes up to the reality that any big investment in their football program won't work in Philly, they will be in. Marquette is in. Xavier is definitely in. DePaul is in because they are lucky enough to be located in Chicago, a megalopolis and a hotbed for recruiting. Butler is in because they have been successful for a long time with numerous coaches, have a decent playing venue and access to others, and are located in a large, midwestern media center and a great locale for recruiting as well. Notre Dame is in if they continue to spurn the Big 10 and ACC for membership.

9-Member New Big East
Georgetown
St. John's
Villanova
Richmond
Xavier
Marquette
DePaul
Butler
Notre Dame

12-Member New Big East
East: Georgetown, St. John's, Villanova, Richmond, Seton Hall, Providence
West: Xavier, DePaul, Butler, Marquette, Notre Dame, St. Louis

I'd take either scenario in a New York second!!!

[muskienick]

So could BYU, TCU and WVU. Not sure what UC brings to the party.

...or BYU, TCU, and Boise State Iif they are going for the best possible programs (and a geographical fit).

[whitesox]

Free advice: Get a new "reliable source."
Here is the reality, from media types in the Big 12 area.


Nothing is reliable or "done" at the moment. Everything is fluid.

[whitesox]

...or BYU, TCU, and Boise State Iif they are going for the best possible programs (and a geographical fit).

TCU seems like a bit of a wildcard here. MWC definitely wants them back, but they would ditch the Big East and jump to an intact Big 12 in a heartbeat I'd think.

[golfitup]

aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MADXSTER]

I think I want a supposition of OOC strength for that requirement...or else we'll end up in a conference with UC.

Would NEVER happen.

[MADXSTER]

Nothing is reliable or "done" at the moment. Everything is fluid.

Hey, let's keep this site clean, alright. :D

[waggy]

This is getting kinda ugly. Lotta dirty laundry getting washed in public, now it's the BE's turn.

Jim Boeheim blames Syracuse's departure from Big East on Notre Dame and conference leadership (http://blog.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2011/09/jim_boeheim_blames_syracuses_d.html)

Wonder why the BE football schools are meeting separate from the basketball schools?

[LA Muskie]

LA, I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying. I am pointing out that at the end of the day those eight schools without FBS football are still full Big East members. The conference cannot disband without their say so. I was merely disagreeing with the notion that it made more sense for the Big Twelve to swallow the Big East. It doesn't. The remaining full Big East members would probably rather have the Big Twelve come to them, but even that can't happen if the eight basketball schools do not approve. Those eight schools are very key players that are being overlooked. Had ND, Nova, Gtown, etc not given the green light for Louisville, Cincinnati and South Florida to come on board last time, it never would have happened. That's one of the reasons that Marquette and DePaul also came on board. They wanted an even balance between the football and basketball schools and they were in a position to make it happen.

I'm not saying the Big East is stable. It isn't. I just don't think it's quite as unstable as the current Big Twelve. I also don't think anyone can say it is all about football when eight (well, seven plus ND) key players don't even have football teams at the FBS level...or at all in some cases.
I get you. But the only remaining value in the Big East is the BCS spot (which is useless to the basketball 8 and only marginally more useful to the remaining BE football schools so long as they get an invite from what's left of the Big XII) and the Big East name -- which was largely synonymous with basketball anyway.

Whether the remaining 8 have any say in the end I have no idea. I would imagine there is a self-destruct button built into the conference by-laws, such that once a certain critical mass leaves, the conference is effectively dissolved for many purposes (including, for example, the payment of exit fees). I could be wrong about that -- I have no inside information -- but I would be surprised if there isn't some provision to that effect. Otherwise the remaining schools could hold the 2nd wave of those who would prefer to leave (in the wake of the first wave) hostage.

[XUFan09]

We seem to have some sort of shake-up every seven years or so.

Not necessarily in chronological order.......

-Big Ten expansion
-the bowl coalition
-the collapse of the SWC
-Big East football
-Florida State football to the ACC
-a twelve team SEC
-the Big Twelve
-The Metro/GMW/CUSA musical chairs
-the BCS
-ACC/Big East/CUSA conference realignment
-Now, the superconferences.

That's just in my lifetime, and I'm pretty sure I'm leaving some things out. Every time, it was the end of college sports as we know it. Every five or six years we undergo something that is the end of college sports as we know it.

You know what, though?? At the end of the day, one thing was still pretty much the same. The major programs were still major programs, and the also-rans were still also-rans. It's been that way since the 1940s. The Bowl Coalition didn't change it. The BCS didn't change it. Conference realignment, which is really not a new phenomenon, has never changed it, and really won't change it this time either.

The "Haves" are still the "Haves."

My prediction is that once all the dust settles, a sense of normalcy will once again develop, and things really won't seem all that drastically different.

And in six years, we'll do it again. The next thing that will "forever change college sports as we know it" will be the fallout of the super conferences. They'll split apart and form eight or nine smaller conferences, and people will think that instead of four, we now have eight, and that since it has doubled in size there will be no more room for the "have nots."

Awesome post. I hate how some people keep whining about doomsday for college sports.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

So Missouri is joining the SEC now?

Mizzou to SEC west with A&M while Auburn moves East?

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2011/09/tentative_plan_for_mizzou_to_j.html

[STL_XUfan]

This is getting kinda ugly. Lotta dirty laundry getting washed in public, now it's the BE's turn.

Jim Boeheim blames Syracuse's departure from Big East on Notre Dame and conference leadership (http://blog.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2011/09/jim_boeheim_blames_syracuses_d.html)

Wonder why the BE football schools are meeting separate from the basketball schools?

A great quote about this was from an anonoymus Big East basketball school in an Andy Katz article earlier:

"However, an official at one of the league's non-football schools questioned whether all of those attending can be trusted.

"Instead of looking each other in the eye, what they should all do is turn on their cell phones and show who they've been talking to and texting with," the official said"

I wish i could remember who to give credit to for this thought but I forgot who tweeted it, but it seems as though money isn't driving the bus like it was last year when this all exploded, instead insecurity is the motivating factor for the domino effect.

I don't think this is better demonstrated then Texas columnist coming out and saying today that it would be best for the Texas if they could convince the Big Xii to avoid implosion for a few more seasons to see if texas really could go independent. Well you know what, I think the rest of the Big Xii would rather see the chips fall where they may then be held hostage to texas's use of the conference as a petri dish for their own ambition. Any salvation of the Big Xii (and I honestly think their might be) is just a band aid and a slight stay of execution. Eventually the fear of being left in the cold when texas does run off will drive the rest of the schools to stay one step ahead of the hangman and leave the moment the opportunity presents itself (see A&M).

[xavierj]

This is getting kinda ugly. Lotta dirty laundry getting washed in public, now it's the BE's turn.

Jim Boeheim blames Syracuse's departure from Big East on Notre Dame and conference leadership (http://blog.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2011/09/jim_boeheim_blames_syracuses_d.html)

Wonder why the BE football schools are meeting separate from the basketball schools?

Because in the grand scheme of things its all about football and basketball is rather irrelevant. This whole thing is driven on football and if you cannot get into one of the power football conferences these football BCS schools stand to lose a ton of money. Right now these football playing Big East schools have too much invested in football to get left holding the bag. They don't need the basketball schools they need a conference that will keep them in the BCS.

[waggy]

The following is from a one year old post by blogger Frank the Tank (wtf).


A source with knowledge of the agreement that was entered into by the Big East schools following the ACC raid of 2003 states that in the event that 2 football members leave the conference, the football and non-football members can split the league without any penalty and retain their respective revenues, such as NCAA Tournament distributions. What is surprising is that the Catholic non-football members comprise the faction that is pushing the issue. If you recall, those schools met back in March to discuss “contingency plans”. Apparently, the Catholic schools have decided that they will exercise the split option if 2 Big East schools leave the conference (no matter who they might be) and have informed Big East commissioner John Marinatto as such. Financially, the Catholic schools would actually be in a fine position because they would have a large reserve of NCAA Tournament credits with Georgetown and Villanova having both made it to the Final Four in the last 4 years. There is also the stability and cultural fit standpoint, where the Catholic schools are not enthralled with the “usual suspects” of Big East expansion candidates from Conference USA.

And as far as Texas goes, they're worse than ND. At least with ND you know where you stand. I'll be very impressed if any conference they don't control is able to get them (TX) to sign.

[paulxu]

So Missouri is joining the SEC now?

Sue 'em Kenny boy!

[waggy]

Another tid-bit from Frank, the Big East is guaranteed a BCS slot thru 2013. Don't know if this would include a bowl actually played in 2014, but nevertheless this has got to be a consideration. Don't know if the bball schools get any piece of that or not though.

[BMoreX]

PeteThamelNYT: The Pac-12 will not expand. On a conference call tonight presidents affirmed their decision to remain a 12-team conference."

Well, see y'all next year.

(Or does this mean Big XII goes after the Big East?)

[HuskyMuskie]

Pac 12 NOT to expand?

PeteThamel NYTPete Thamel


"The Pac-12 will not expand. On a conference call tonight presidents affirmed their decision to remain a 12-team conference."

[STL_XUfan]

Pac 12 NOT to expand?

PeteThamel NYTPete Thamel


"The Pac-12 will not expand. On a conference call tonight presidents affirmed their decision to remain a 12-team conference."

AKA, to avoid any law suit filed by the remaining big Xii schools we have decided not to expand....oh what, Oklahoma has asked to join out of the blue with out us asking them, sure you can come along....oh you brought your friend OSU, Texas and Texas Tech, I guess they can join the party too.

[LA Muskie]

AKA, to avoid any law suit filed by the remaining big Xii schools we have decided not to expand....oh what, Oklahoma has asked to join out of the blue with out us asking them, sure you can come along....oh you brought your friend OSU, Texas and Texas Tech, I guess they can join the party too.
Actually, I read this to mean that they didn't want to be a ploy to force the resurrection of the Big XII, weren't thrilled about OK St and TX Tech, and TX wasn't willing to play ball on the LHN deal.

For whatever reason, I don't think they're bluffing. I think Pac-12 is going to stay pat.

What happens next is anyone's guess. I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibilities for the SEC to take OK, OK St. and Missouri -- leaving Texas to pick up the pieces of the conference it destroyed. Not sure what that would do to the Big East, but gawd would I like to see Texas in that predicament.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Actually, I read this to mean that they didn't want to be a ploy to force the resurrection of the Big XII, weren't thrilled about OK St and TX Tech, and TX wasn't willing to play ball on the LHN deal.

For whatever reason, I don't think they're bluffing. I think Pac-12 is going to stay pat.

What happens next is anyone's guess. I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibilities for the SEC to take OK, OK St. and Missouri -- leaving Texas to pick up the pieces of the conference it destroyed. Not sure what that would do to the Big East, but gawd would I like to see Texas in that predicament.

It's interesting that they are content with staying pat when they literally could have gotten 2 of the biggest football programs to join. I do wonder if its a bluff like the SEC said about A&M a week before they accepted them

So what will the Pac 12 do when the ACC and SEC go to 16?

Also, everyone in the Big 12 has to hate each other at this point. Oklahoma wanted Beebe gone. Texas and ESPN lied to everyone about not airing HS games. There's still horribly unequal revenue sharing. A&M and probably Missouri are gone.

[XUFan09]

Here's to hoping that the ACC takes UConn and Rutgers. That move would leave the Big East in dire straits. Four schools, five including a TCU program that you would think would jump on a Big 12 invite in a heartbeat, or at least return to the Mountain West instead of joining a damaged BE conference.

[waggy]

So at the current time Kansas' choices are:

1. Stay in disfunctional, unequal share, unstable B12.

2. Or move to far flung maybe even more unstable east coast based league for probably even less money.

[Xavier]

We all think the Big East euphoria was hard to stand, get ready for the new beast, the ACC. Vitale may be running the universe somehow, as adding Syracuse and Uconn to the ACC is a dream come true.

No doubt about it- ACC is by far the best basketball conference.

[xubrew]

Pac 12 NOT to expand?

PeteThamel NYTPete Thamel


"The Pac-12 will not expand. On a conference call tonight presidents affirmed their decision to remain a 12-team conference."

Did NOT see that one coming.

This is the biggest surprise for me so far. WOW.

I have no idea why. I thought Larry Scott was making it his mission in life to swallow the Big Twelve, which is where he used to work.

For those that don't know, Larry Scott is the Pac Twelve commissioner. He's been beating the expansion drum all along...or at least seemingly...and has been targeting his old schools from the Big Twelve. I thought it was a done deal. I thought it was to the point to where they were debating whether or not to have two divisions of eight, or four divisions of four. Jeez... I thought they even had a verbal agreement in place on what to do with the LHN.

I'm stunned. Stunned, I say... Holy Crap!! Texas and Oklahoma are probably more than a little miffed about this.

[Masterofreality]

Here's to hoping that the ACC takes UConn and Rutgers. That move would leave the Big East in dire straits. Four schools, five including a TCU program that you would think would jump on a Big 12 invite in a heartbeat, or at least return to the Mountain West instead of joining a damaged BE conference.

This.

It ain't over yet just because of this.

UCon is still going to the ACC and Rutgers is going somewhere- B10, ACC- but somewhere. WVA will go anywhere bigger who will take them. Big East football will still be dead.

All this news does is make it worse for the rest of the Big Greased football schools. SucKS is now in a worse position.

You really think that WVA, UCon and Rutgers want to be in a crappy football league with 2nd tier programs like Central Florida, East Carolina and Army? HA!!

WVA Fan: "Hey, Jethro. I got two tickets to the Central Florida game Saturday. Wanna go?"

Jethro: "Uh. I think I'd rather clean my shotgun and skin a couple of possum".

[paulxu]

If you read this ESPN recap article, a couple of things stand out:

1 - the whole shuffle was started by Texas/ESPN/LHN which got A & M mad

2 - Texas is still trying to keep an edge, so the Pac12 doesn't like it

3 - What happened to OU wanting Texas to bend and getting ride of commish?

4 - If B12 stays together, UC seems to be screwed

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/6998751/pac-12-conference-decides-expand-further

ps. this isn't in the cards, but it would be really funny if the SEC took Mizzou, A&M, and OK/OKSt.

[Xavier]

I did see a report on Oklahoma and OK state considering an SEC move. Also, Texas (who started the whole mess) is the reason behind pac 12 not getting a deal done with Texas/tech and Oklahoma/state.

[Xavier]

You really think that WVA, UCon and Rutgers want to be in a crappy football league with 2nd tier programs like Central Florida, East Carolina and Army? HA!!



Meh, I consider Uconn and Rutgers second rate programs as it is.

[muskiefan82]

No doubt about it- ACC is by far the best basketball conference.

My God, how bad did things just get for Wake Forest?

[Giacomazzi]

I did see a report on Oklahoma and OK state considering an SEC move. Also, Texas (who started the whole mess) is the reason behind pac 12 not getting a deal done with Texas/tech and Oklahoma/state.

I could see Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and Missouri all going SEC. Which would have the EXACT same effect as 4 going to the Pac 12. The SEC has been incredibly quiet throughout all of this. I feel like they know they have the advantage and just want to toy with everyone else.

But this is exactly what I was saying about OU and Texas. If Texas was going to play ball and go Pac 12 with everyone, then OU would go. But OU doesn't want to stay in the Big XII without some of the same concessions that Texas would have had to make in the Pac 16. OU is on top of the SEC's wish list and could pull along OSU and Missouri to make 16.

[dc_x]

The SEC is afraid of inviting anyone from the Big 12 because of the legal issues with Texas A&M.


The SEC, the undisputed best football league in the nation, had gone from seeing Mizzou as an afterthought to what a college football insider knowledgeable of the dynamics termed a "terrific" option for a 14th team.

But as the Post-Dispatch reported Monday and Tuesday, an end of the Big 12 as it currently existed was the key to the SEC's evolving thinking on MU.

Lest it be accused of torpedoing the Big 12 or expose itself to further legal entanglements a la the Baylor-led movement regarding Texas A&M and the SEC, the SEC almost certainly wouldn't beckon Mizzou unless the Big 12 disintegrates beyond recognition.

http://m.stltoday.com/STL/db_259774/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=A0n0OPy6&full=true#display

The question is who becomes the SEC's 14th team? WVU?

And who becomes the Big 12's 10th team? BYU?

It sounds like the BE will add some more non-BCS programs to replace Syracuse and Pitt.


The Big East seems more likely to try to rebuild itself through the addition of football programs. Navy, Air Force, Temple, Central Florida, East Carolina (which has formally applied for Big East membership), Memphis and Houston are now the most plausible candidates. Big East officials have spent little time discussing those colleges, as most of their attention has been focused on the Big 12 programs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/sports/ncaafootball/oklahoma-may-agree-to-remain-in-big-12.html?ref=sports

And there is also the question of whether the ACC wants to add Rutgers and UConn to get to 16.

[pizza delivery]

My God, how bad did things just get for Wake Forest?

There will be some teams that necessarily will go the way of Depaul and Seton Hall, former greats on life support. NC St., Clemson, Wake are all in those cross hairs I believe.

[pickledpigsfeet]

I don't like Notre Dame, but I think they may be the smartest guy in the room. Everyone else seems to think that if you don't have sixteen, you're too small. Nevermind the fact that for a hundred years not having sixteen worked out just fine.

Notre Dame is showing that you don't need sixteen. You don't even need two.

The one argument that I've heard for ND joining a conference is that if the BE breaks up, they would need a conference for all of the other sports (the so called Olympic sports) because being independent in those sports doesn't make sense money wise. If the right situation doesn't come along for them, again assuming that the BE breaks up, then their hand may be forced to join one of the large conferences for all sports, football included.

That said, with the Pac 12 standing pat, I would imagine that some of this realignment talk calming down a bit.

[pizza delivery]

The Pac 12 must be sure enough that UT and OU are not going to another conference because for them to leave those two on the table would REALLY leave them in the west coast wasteland of irrelevance. This tells me that all the important moves may be finished. Like the NYT says, maybe the BE just got crappier in FB and UConn became a lock to win it in basketball every single year.

[GoMuskies]

Losing Pitt and Syracuse may be addition by subtraction for Big East football. They've both been pretty lousy of late (Syracuse is improving this year). And there are plenty of remaining teams in the Big East capable of challenging UConn in basketball. I think UConn was 8th in the Big East this year, and only 2 are leaving.

[pizza delivery]

At face value, you have to wonder why Texas thought playing in a half empty stadium in LA was appealing. Perhaps the thought of it, along with the other scheduling complications their move would create for everyone in a 4x16 world, not to mention the outlook in bowl season of having to play conference mates, etc. changed their minds. It's UT, so I don't get they'd be worrying too much about others, but perhaps things are cooling off while visualizing the downside of all these drastic changes.

As for the BE, I can see why they will fight to stay football. In basketball, if they keep Uconn, Lou, UC, together with Vil and Gtown they are as well off as if they added XU and Butler or something. Meanwhile in football, TCU, UC, UL, Uconn will fight it out as the Sun Belt Conference of the BCS. Better than nothing from their perspective.

The full moon fever is past, I put the BE split at 10% at this point.

[pizza delivery]

Losing Pitt and Syracuse may be addition by subtraction for Big East football. They've both been pretty lousy of late (Syracuse is improving this year). And there are plenty of remaining teams in the Big East capable of challenging UConn in basketball. I think UConn was 8th in the Big East this year, and only 2 are leaving.

Pitt's always been a challenger in the league, if not just simply over rated. The teams their looking to add are even less BCS worthy, again, if only by reputation. I know Jeff Blake went to East Carolina! Woot!

I forgot about U of L and a few others that remain, but in a down year at Uconn they finished 8th and won the whole damn thing. Take my use of "lock" as hyperbole, but only in the sense that Uconn has earned that respect.

[GoMuskies]

Just saying that Big East basketball is still going to be very, very good. And losing Syracuse and Pitt in football hurts perception more than on-field performance. Navy has been better than both for quite some time.

[whitesox]

So now the SEC still needs a 14th team to offset Texas A&M.

And it seems that the Big 12 is looking to replace Texas A&M. The espn article states that they had contacted Arkansas and BYU and were (prior the the Pac-12 stuff) planning to contact Louisville and West Virginia.

It still seems like the Big East is doomed. Down to 7 teams if you include UConn and TCU -- one of which isn't a member yet, and the other is trying to leave. Then you include the possibility that the SEC and Big 12 might try to poach another team, and the Big 12 staying together means they don't have anywhere to go... I guess they will either break apart or try to grab CUSA teams.

[GoMuskies]

It's interesting that there are really no decent options in the eastern half of the country that are not already in BCS leagues. ECU, Memphis, UCF, Temple? Yech. I would rather have each of Boise State, Houston, BYU and Fresno over anyone east of the Missouri River.

[nuts4xu]

This whole thing is a tremendous Cluster Fu**.

[XUglow]

I think the Pac12 has made the right move by saying no more expansion for now. UCLA used to bug the hell out of everyone back in the day because they wanted to be treated special. Texas would just be UCLA on steroids. Everyone was getting on edge just thinking about them coming in and acting like a spoiled teenage girl.

Even if this comes to fruition, I don't think it will last. The culture clash between OU/UT and Stanford/Cal will be massive.

[coasterville95]

Last night I talked ths over with a UC fan whose opinion I trust.

From his standpoint, they are worried over there at UC. I don't think it's a big secret that UC has invested a LOT of money into its athletics programsas of late, what with Varsity Villiage, the practice bubble, and the proposals to upgrade Nippert and either upgrade or replace The Shoe. His take is that UC spent a lot of time, effort and money to woo the Big East. Maybe to the point of being accepted with only the minimal athletics facilities the conference would accept. (Hasn't it been noted they have the lowest athletics budget in the conference?), with the promise to upgrade its facilities to Big East standards over the next several years.

Then of course you know what happened to the basketball program, meanwhile the football program caught lightning in a jar with Kelly and for a short time it looked like they had made the right move.

His concern is what happens next. Does UC stay in a decimated Big East. With Pitt and Syracuse gone and U-Conn and Rutgers rumored to be grabbing their coats in anticipation of heading to the exits, that would only leave what, 4 football programs, and after-all UC is all about the football now, you know. Suddenly the return on all that investment suddenly isnt looking so good if they aren't getting the football exposure they were hoping for, and the basketball program is still in "Doormat of the league" status.

So, let's say the 4 remaing football programs (UC, Louisville, WVA, and USF IIRC) merge into the Big XII to replace the likes of Oklahoma, A&M, Texas. Ok, so maybe they cut USF loose as I don't see them enhancing either conference. That has to be UC's hopes right now, IF their facilities and programs meet Big XII standards. It would also be interesting, if not awkward to see K-State and WVa in the same conference...

Ah, but the Pac X just claimed they are closing the doors to exapnsion. OK, so then the Big XII schools are stuck in the Big XII, they may loose 1 or 2 to the SEC. But, still they won't lose enough to absorb the football side of the Big East. Now we have UC's worst nightmare.

The Big XII is full (and on just as much life support as the Big East), the Pac X is full and a bad fit gerographicly, the ACC has to be full, particularly if they do add UCONN and Rutgers, their football program isn't serious enough for the likes of the SEC, (who may be full if they scarf some Big XII schools), and from what I hear the Big Ten would be a bad fit (and tOSU would never allow it anyway)

Now, if I'm UC, I have just gambled a lot of money on the Big East and lost, and have to either stay in a lesser Big East, drop down to one of those conferences they thought they outgrew (humble pie when they call C-USA "Will you take us back?"), or be faced with the fact they have to cough up even more money in the hopes of wooing a real BCS conference, when they are already over extended on cash.

But enough about them -

What does that mean for us, for us I think the Pac X slamming the door is BAD, because that means the PAC X isn't going to raid the Big XII, which in turn isn't going to play "Let's Make a Deal" with the football side of the Big East, which would seem to mean the new "Big East Basketball Conference" won't need to be formed, and thus no incentive to take either us of Butler. (I can see them snapping up Temple for football, any other A-10 teams field a football program they may want to snap up to replace one of the 4 they are losing)

So there we are in the A-10 less Temple. Either way somethign has to give, I mean even if Big East snaps up Temple they can't go on with just 5 football programs, right, maybe even just 4.

As far as the new "Big East Basketall Super Conference" and the eligibility waitout for new conferences in tournaments, if they packaged that into the whole realignment deal to the NCAA, "Okay, here is what we are doing, and as a byproduct of the football reorg, we are going to create a basketball confernece which should be given instant access to post season play" Of course, this is the NCAA we are talking about. I would agree with whoever said "They could make a new conference out of just the former Big East basketball schools" and it would be classed mid-major.

But - as has been alluded to maybe the Pac X slamming the door will calm this situation back down, at least until next year. Well, unless you are Big East or Big XII.

[Fireball]

Basically what I'm seeing from all of this is that eventually instead of having 6 top conferences with 8-14 teams apiece, we're going to have 8 top conferences with 8 team apiece. Because really, with 16-team super-conferences, each of the conferences is probably going to have 8-team geographically related divisions. Those divisions will play each other most frequently, and really just be loosely tied with the other division. The divisions will have the most traditional conference-like relationship that we're used to. It's just going to be called something else.

The big major schools will still be the big major schools. The basketball-only schools will be in a non-football conference, just like Xavier is now. I know people are talking the apocalypse here, but I honestly just don't see things changing all that much.

[Title_BU]

evidently, the big east is going to put itself on life support and offer navy and army. this would probably be able to maintain the status quo until Rutgers or UConn or West Virginia left (or any combination)

Regardless, the failure of the Big East football status is going to happen, it just might have a short term reprieve. (assuming that conference is still even given auto-qualifier status)

It would appear, barring something big in the next couple of days, itll be another year (at least) until Xavier and Butler aren't added to the Big East basketball remnants.

[Founding Father]

95,

I like you post above but I think the Big XII sticking together is actually better for XU, at least right now. For XU to get into the new Big East, we need the current Big East Football to die. It won't die easy but without the chance to add Big XII teams it will have to add some pretty crappy teams to continue to exist. The BE went from thinking they could add Kansas and Kansas St. to looking at Army and ECU.

Here's what I hope and think happens:

The ACC adds Pitt, Syracuse and UCONN and stop at 15. Is there any reason why they can't be 15 teams? I think the ACC thinks they can get ND when ND either is forced to join a league or feels like they have no other choice. That could be years down the road, possibly never. The ACC does not want to be 17 teams so why add Rutgers NOW. Rutgers will probably always be there if you want/need them.

I think the Big XII will add BYU. If they are smart, they will look to add some current Big East Football teams but not all of them. This ensures that the Big XII survives over the Big East if OU and company either go to the SEC or PAC in a year or two. I hope they invite BYU, TCU, WVU making them a 12 team league.

BYU is stongly considering it:

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/6999866/big-12-commissioner-dan-beebe-job-status-tenuous-source-says

I would think TCU would have some major second thoughts about joining a BE without Syracuse, Pitt and possibly UCONN. If TCU is offered at the same time as BYU and WVU, they then know they are entering a 12 team league along with knowing the BE is losing its last big name team.

That leaves the BE football with Rutgers, Louisville, South Florida and UC.

Couldn't the 8 bball only members tell the 4 football members, we don't want you adding CUSA football schools to our conference. We don't want you adding Patriot league teams to our conference. We don't want you adding MAC league teams to our conference.

If that happened the 4 remaining would either have to rejoin CUSA or look to add 4 to 8 teams from various conferences to form a new football league.

Either way, the bball only schools inherit the BE, invite 1-3 bball only schools and moves on.

[chico]

The Big East basketball schools have to be thinking about moving. The only football schools that mattered in basketball - outside of UL - are gone (Syracuse), getting ready to leave (UConn) or wanting out and likely to leave the first chance they get (WVa). Does it really help Georgetown and Villanova that UC, USF and TCU (if it stays) have football? Or would it be better for the basketball schools to scoop up some other quality basketball schools and make their mark their, because clearly their allegiance to the Big East has not helped them at all.

The hoops schools need to get out in front of all the football maneuvering and form their own "super-conference." If you don't have football why let the schools that do dictate what you do? Those schools have shown that basketball is by and large a second class citizen.

[LA Muskie]

Couldn't the 8 bball only members tell the 4 football members, we don't want you adding CUSA football schools to our conference. We don't want you adding Patriot league teams to our conference. We don't want you adding MAC league teams to our conference.

If that happened the 4 remaining would either have to rejoin CUSA or look to add 4 to 8 teams from various conferences to form a new football league.

Either way, the bball only schools inherit the BE, invite 1-3 bball only schools and moves on.
More likely they say "we want a say in who you invite, and from here on out we get a cut of the football pie." Then they get football revenues without having to field D-I FBS football teams.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

TCU is already looking into a return to the MWC or joining the Big 12

ChipBrownOB Chip Brown
Also hearing TCU is exploring the possibility of returning to the Mountain West instead joining the Big East next season.

[chico]

Maybe Go can answer this, but is there any chance UL goes to the Big XII? They never were a great fit for the Big East and even though their football is crappy right now they have made the financial commitment to try and improve.

[Founding Father]

More likely they say "we want a say in who you invite, and from here on out we get a cut of the football pie." Then they get football revenues without having to field D-I FBS football teams.

Possibly but when you look at the teams they have to choose from to add in to replace Syracuse, Pitt, possibly UCONN, possibly TCU, possibly WVU, they bball only schools would have to think long and hard about adding mediocre football programs with crappier bball programs to the once proud league.

As a side note, I told a UC fan/co-worker that all I've heard since UC joined the BE is how rough and tough the bball league is. I would point out that the BE was merely top heavy and that playing S. Florida, DePaul, Rutgers, Seton Hall, Providence, St. John's (until last year) was nothing special that that these games/wins were BE in name only. UC fans would harshly disgree.

I can now see them saying that when XU is in a league with some of these teams that XU's league is weak.

[GoMuskies]

Maybe Go can answer this, but is there any chance UL goes to the Big XII? They never were a great fit for the Big East and even though their football is crappy right now they have made the financial commitment to try and improve.

They'd go there yesterday if offered the opportunity and there was any sort of commitment to keep the thing together.

Louisville football has mostly been good for 20 years (Ron Cooper and Steve Kragthorpe blips notwithstanding). I think most conferences would see the program as decent enough to be worth the bonus of adding Louisville basketball.

[MHettel]

Just saying that Big East basketball is still going to be very, very good. And losing Syracuse and Pitt in football hurts perception more than on-field performance. Navy has been better than both for quite some time.

Not sure I agree about BE basketball still being very, very good. Syracuse and Pitt have been top 5 in the Big East for about 10 years (along with GTown, UConn, and Nova).

If UConn goes to the ACC, then BE goes down at least a couple steps in the basketball rankings.

[GoMuskies]

That assumed UConn stays. With Louisville, WV, UConn, G'town, 'Nova, a resurgent St. John's and Notre Dame, that's still going to be a helluva basketball league.

[smileyy]

4 16-team conferences with 8-team subconferences. 7 games against your subconference. 1 game against the equally-placed team in the other conference (1 vs. 1, 2 vs 2). Championship winners (and maybe runners-up) move onto a 2-game (or 3) playoff. You're at 10-11 games now, leaving what....2 or 3 for out-of-conference play?

[NY44]

Here's my prediction:

We go undefeated in conference and have no more then two losses with the schools first final four. Enough of this hearsay.

[Kahns Krazy]

http://th02.deviantart.net/fs26/PRE/f/2008/041/d/0/My_Prediction__Pain_background_by_kingofank.jpg

[chico]

http://th02.deviantart.net/fs26/PRE/f/2008/041/d/0/My_Prediction__Pain_background_by_kingofank.jpg

I pity the fool who thinks this ever gets old - because it doesn't. I would give you positive reputation points if I was able to.

[xudash]

And the latest is:

PAC12 holding at 12. It's done; they're done for now.

Big XII has a conference call tomorrow. They have obstacles to work through - LHN and the league's revenue sharing arrangement - but I have to believe they'll work through them, given the consequences of not working through them.

What do they do about adding 1 to make up for A&M and maybe 2 to make-up for Mizzou, should it move to the SEC with A&M or 4 if it still wants its name to make sense:

BYU, if one, which assumes A&M leaving.
The ESPN tape scrolled the following: BYU, Louisville and WVU, which enables the league to make sense out of part of its name - twelve.

In my opinion, what once was a basketball league is now in the most perilous seat of the existing BCS conferences, at risk of becoming a hoops league again.

The music is slowing down, and its beginning to look like a few chairs have been removed.

[xubrew]

Not sure I agree about BE basketball still being very, very good. Syracuse and Pitt have been top 5 in the Big East for about 10 years (along with GTown, UConn, and Nova).

If UConn goes to the ACC, then BE goes down at least a couple steps in the basketball rankings.

It's still one of the stronger leagues in the country without Syracuse and Pitt.

Now losing Syracuse and Pitt AND adding TCU may take it down a couple pegs.

[More Cowbell]

I just got this in my inbox. Pathetic

http://pacmail.em.marketinghq.net/functions/message_view.html?mid=200413&mlid=81&siteid=2008000079&uid=9197bdfb00&hq_e=el&hq_m=200413&hq_l=1&hq_v=9197bdfb00

[MADXSTER]

I've never read so many positive things about the Big East on this board since joining.

Wow what a change from Big Least, BSPN to what I have been reading in the last two weeks.

[RealDeal]

Wendell: You know, there might not have been no money.
Ed Tom Bell: That's possible.
Wendell: But you don't believe it.
Ed Tom Bell: No. Probably I don't.
Wendell: It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell: If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.

[waggy]

There is still a bunch unresolved.

The BE needs one more team, but the B12 is in a much stronger position, and also needs at least one more. And does the SEC stay at 13?

BE football is in big trouble I think.

[waggy]

And just to add to it, and I'm sure most here are aware, but UConn, WVU & Rutgers are all saying they are not committed to the BE.

So you bring Army, Navy & maybe Temple? Good luck with that.

[GoMuskies]

It's actually Air Force that's been mentioned, not Army. If you'll stretch to Colorado Springs, may as well go to Boise, IO.

[waggy]

It's actually Air Force that's been mentioned, not Army. If you'll stretch to Colorado Springs, may as well go to Boise, IO.

For the BE? For real? I hadn't read that. I still say a big "whatever".

I have no numbers to back it up, but I think it's getting close to the MWC being stronger than the BE. Nevada and FSU aren't bad programs.

[GoMuskies]

The numbers say that the Big East is a lot closer to being better than the Big Ten than the MWC is to being better than the Big East. UNLV, New Mexico and Colorado State are REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY bad.

[waggy]

I see.

[waggy]

Go, do you think Louisville would accept a B12 invite?

[paulxu]

The basic problem seems to be the LH Network. Makes sense.

[smileyy]

Its funny how much of a problem a TV network that no one can watch has become.

[Xavier]

Just saying that Big East basketball is still going to be very, very good. And losing Syracuse and Pitt in football hurts perception more than on-field performance. Navy has been better than both for quite some time.

I think Pitt and Navy have been on par- Navy has def been better then cuse, though.

[GoMuskies]

Go, do you think Louisville would accept a B12 invite?

If they get any assurance at all that ther's going to be some stability in the league, I can't imagine Louisville turning that down.

[GoMuskies]

Its funny how much of a problem a TV network that no one can (or wants to) watch has become.

I think this is a more accurate portrayal of the current state of things.

[xudash]

What I think we know and what I see:

What We Know

The PAC12 is stopping at 12. They simply couldn't work through an equitable arrangement involving the LHN and the Bay Area schools were screaming about the academic ramifications of adding OU and OSU. They'll digest, get their new agreements up and running and they'll see what goes on from here - for now.

The SEC needs one, assuming A&M remains hellbent on getting there, which is most likely. With A&M going, the most popular rumor right now involves Missouri, as it is contiguous to Arkansas and provides the SEC new television viewers.

That puts the Big XII down to a net 8 - A&M, Missouri, Colorado and Nebraska leaving it. The ticker on ESPN has been flashing WVU, Louisville and BYU to the Big XII, which means it isn't accounting for a Missouri exit at this point. The Big XII Presidents have a call tomorrow to hash out Beebe, more equity in the handling of the LHN, if possible, both of which are demands of a highly competent and effective OU President. At this point, the question is twofold: [1] can they keep it together in a manner that is acceptable to Texas AND Oklahoma?, and [2] Why stop at just adding BYU; why not take it back to 12, using a couple of BE schools to accomplish that? And, again, none of that will stop Missouri from leaving if it can pull it off.

The BE, regardless of whether or not the immediately above paragraph happens or not, is highly damaged. 2003 was 2003. There are no Louisville's or UC's to go after this time. In context, it just isn't going to be the same pulling in a service academy, a Houston, or another Florida directional school, no matter how big that school has become or will become.

What I See

Accordingly, the recent contract that the BE passed on before isn't going to get bigger when a dialoge comes around about it again. It damn well may shrink, assuming they get to a negotiation over it at all.

More to the point, what do the BE basketball schools care about the football side's television money? They see ZERO of it. And what is left of the BE, in the aggregate, isn't going to be able to pull much, enough, to make everyone in the hybrid happy. The BE basketball schools are left to answer a simple question: Is UConn, WVU, L'ville, and UC enough, KNOWING THAT IT IS A MATTER OF TIME, and possibly sooner than later, that one or a few of them exit. And they all want to exit.

Now they may still see bellying up against the football schools as the better option, but it will be temporary.

IF they go in that direction, and if the A10 loses Temple over this, I show no mercy if I'm Father Graham and MB. LaSalle is voted out via a special vote of a developed majority. Fordham receives the same treatment, unless you want to give them one more chance with conditions (e.g. fire your AD and put someone in that chair with a brain; deliver a more viable home game solution within 30 days (I didn't say they would be given much time for that)).

Xavier will need to solve for the A10, as the A10 will, at some point, most likely lose Temple, UMass and Charlotte over football.

[vee4xu]

I am trying to find the right word to use to describe a situation where 5 players get suspended, a coach resigns and a program faces sanctions as a result of tattoos, while old white men sit in conference rooms across the country playing college conference monopoly with billions of real dollars at stake.

How about stupid? Amusing? Laughable? I don't know that's the best I can do at the moment.

p.s. - I am not condoning either the actions of the program facing sanctions or condemning the old white guys playing college conference monopoly.

[DC Muskie]

How soon do we think UMass, Temple and Charlotte will end up losing and where are they going?

If the BE adds Navy for football, that still makes them unbalanced per football and basketball schools.

[SixFig]

I am trying to find the right word to use to describe a situation where 5 players get suspended, a coach resigns and a program faces sanctions as a result of tattoos, while old white men sit in conference rooms across the country playing college conference monopoly with billions of real dollars at stake.

How about stupid? Amusing? Laughable? I don't know that's the best I can do at the moment.

p.s. - I am not condoning either the actions of the program facing sanctions or condemning the old white guys playing college conference monopoly.

In both cases the players and the old white guy were all looking out for number one...themselves. Greed only worked in the latter case.

[waggy]

I don't think the B12 goes past 10 because it's just more mouths to feed.

I don't think Missouri gets the call, because Slive doesn't want to look like he is trying to destroy the B12. I think the SEC takes WVU instead.

[DC Muskie]

I don't think Missouri gets the call, because Slive doesn't want to look like he is trying to destroy the B12. I think the SEC takes WVU instead.

Do you think he will pass up the St. Louis market for the hilljacks of Morgantown?

[waggy]

Do you think he will pass up the St. Louis market for the hilljacks of Morgantown?

If it means not getting sued, probably.

[DC Muskie]

I am trying to find the right word to use to describe a situation where 5 players get suspended, a coach resigns and a program faces sanctions as a result of tattoos, while old white men sit in conference rooms across the country playing college conference monopoly with billions of real dollars at stake.

How about stupid? Amusing? Laughable? I don't know that's the best I can do at the moment.

p.s. - I am not condoning either the actions of the program facing sanctions or condemning the old white guys playing college conference monopoly.

I like how people are crying about promises being broken, tradition being tossed aside.

The Big East has been around since 1979. They have had football since 1991.

They kicked out Temple, added a couple of schools just six years ago, and have changed more then any other conference the last twenty years.

Yeah, this is like the Ivy League disbanding.

[DC Muskie]

If it means not getting sued, probably.

Ha. Yeah I can see that.

[XUFan09]

Do you think he will pass up the St. Louis market for the hilljacks of Morgantown?

Fun fact: The St. Louis metro area has more people than the entire state of West Virginia by a million strong. And that's without considering the rest of Missouri, which has about three times the population of West Virginia.

Maybe the risk of being sued and the problems that would occur if they were sued would be worth it for the SEC.

[X-band '01]

Do you think he will pass up the St. Louis market for the hilljacks of Morgantown?

He'd be passing up both the St. Louis and Kansas City markets, although Waggy's point remains - none of the Big 12 schools are officially going to make any moves until the legal hurdles are taken care of. Even Texas A&M hasn't officially become an SEC member yet.

[XUFan09]

I guess what I'm saying is the lawsuit consequences would have to be really bad for SEC to settle on WVU.

[waggy]

Imo, BE football is just trying to get thru 2013. I don't know if that constitutes two or three more guaranteed BCS berths, but that is a big part of things. The football programs and bball programs are meeting separately. Pretty much all the programs being mentioned are for footbally only. There will be a final split, but it might be 2013 before it finally happens.

[danaandvictory]

Yeah, this is like the Ivy League disbanding.

I learned the other day that the Ivy League was founded in 1954. The Big 10, the Pac 10, the SEC and the ACC are all older than the Ivy League!

[Masterofreality]

Here's the bottom line:

Good luck Big Greased with getting a fat new TV contract with all of this upheaval. They blew it when they turned down the four letter network's offer last year.

B-Espn is that, mainly because UCon is right there next to Bristol- and UCon is going to the ACC at some point- probably at the end of 27 months. When Rutgers goes somewhere and WVA goes somewhere, which they will, B-Espn will return to just ESPN and will probably try to work a new fatter deal with the ACC. That means that U of L and SucKS are out in the cold and stuck in a second rate football conference. You really think that Espn will pay big dollars for a crappy football league that is barely better than the MAC? Hell, those game will all be on "Thursday Night Showcase".

Now, that also creates a problem for the remaining basketball schools. St. Johns/Seton Hall alone aren't strong enough in New York for B-Espn to pay a bunch for the basketball rights. Providence, DePaul and SFLA? Child Please!! UofL helps, but I would guess that Espn, who is looking for the biggest ratings numbers possible, will throw their lot with the bigger conferences and the basketball remains of the Big Least falls down with the A-10 and CUSA.

The final configuration of the basketball Big Greased will be marginally better than the A-10....and for how long without having every one of the games crammed down the public's throat on TV?

Would I prefer to be in a league with Marquette, St. Johns, 'Nova and Georgetown? Yeah, I guess, but the discrepancy between the two leagues will not be as great going forward and if they could just dump LaSuck and F-ham the product instantly improves. Temple will go nowhere, because 'Nova won't allow it. UMess? Ha. They can't even run a basketball program. I doubt they are going anywhere.

[paulxu]

Your B-Espn network will soon turn into the espAnCC network.

Hola!

[LA Muskie]

I guess what I'm saying is the lawsuit consequences would have to be really bad for SEC to settle on WVU.

The risk of a lawsuit is high (Ken Starr...). The risk of a successful lawsuit is low. The SEC is just trying to force A&M to settle up; but in the end I don't think the SEC will make expansion decisions based on the threat of a relatively weak lawsuit.

[XUglow]

Do you think he will pass up the St. Louis market for the hilljacks of Morgantown?

I don't think anyone in SEC territory really wants West Virginia.

[LA Muskie]

I don't think anyone in SEC territory really wants West Virginia.

Agreed. If reports are true that the PAC-XX only wanted to expand if TX was included, and TX refused to budge, then it could only have hurt OK's relationship with them. They may be saying all the right things, but I suspect OK was almost immediately on the phone w/ the SEC trying to broker a deal for OK, OK St., and Mizz.

If the SEC is in fact afraid of a lawsuit, it gets much scarrier if that happens. But my defense would be no solicitation (the schools came to the SEC) and that the Big XII has only TX to blame.

[LA Muskie]

PS: The departing Big XII schools will almost certainly have to indemnify the SEC as a condition of admission, so the downside risk to the SEC of a lawsuit is pretty low. Annoying, but low.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Agreed. If reports are true that the PAC-XX only wanted to expand if TX was included, and TX refused to budge, then it could only have hurt OK's relationship with them. They may be saying all the right things, but I suspect OK was almost immediately on the phone w/ the SEC trying to broker a deal for OK, OK St., and Mizz.

.

Not only this, but Texas has gone on the record of saying "We will not negotiate the LHN". I don't have any confidence that this whole thing won't happen again next year.

Also, its important to note that UConn and Rutgers did not and still has not vowed their allegiance to the Big East. They were not present at the meetings. Your move ACC

[GoMuskies]

The risk of a lawsuit is high (Ken Starr...).

This is just an example (because I have seen it quite a few times), but I think it's funny that a lot of people cite the fact that Baylor's president is a lawyer as a reason for them being potentially litigious. As if every other university doesn't have its own army of lawyers. And as if Ken Starr is going to take a break from his day job and personally prosecute a lawsuit.

[xudash]

It is beginning to quiet down:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/22/sports/ncaafootball/after-realignment-jitters-calm-returns-to-college-football.html?_r=4&ref=sports

[LA Muskie]

This is just an example (because I have seen it quite a few times), but I think it's funny that a lot of people cite the fact that Baylor's president is a lawyer as a reason for them being potentially litigious. As if every other university doesn't have its own army of lawyers. And as if Ken Starr is going to take a break from his day job and personally prosecute a lawsuit.
I know a lot about Ken Starr. He was a partner at my former firm and a good friend of most of the partners I worked for. This is different. He loves causes and he is a litigator by trade. He is more willing to be litigious than most university presidents.

[SixFig]

Must read article

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=dw-wetzel_stop_realignment_start_football_playoff_092 211

[xavierj]

how can this be done or quiet down? Won't the big 12 have to add teams with the defections? I think they look to add boise st. Tcu and possibly louisville.

[GoMuskies]

Jimmy, you really went to the archive for that one. Five months is an eternity given what has happened in the interim.

[Emp]

I learned the other day that the Ivy League was founded in 1954. The Big 10, the Pac 10, the SEC and the ACC are all older than the Ivy League!

The "Ivy League" as a formal entity is post WWII. It operated informally before that for a long time. Included in its rough confederation at various times were both Army and Navy, and the alliances moved around depending on the sports. For example, the "Heptagonals", or Heps, was an alliance for track and cross country.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Jimmy, you really went to the archive for that one. Five months is an eternity given what has happened in the interim.

I had a massive brainfart on that one

[paulxu]

I had a massive brainfart on that one

But you were wearing your new Nikes.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb5/neb0jsa/a-brain-fart-brain-fart-demotivational-poster-1208825610.jpg

[GoMuskies]

How soon do we think the Big XII is going to try to work themselves back up to their name? If they just go back to 10, it might just be TCU, not quite killing the Big East yet. If they go 12, it's likely to be TCU and at least one of Louisville and WV (wth maybe BYU in the mix as well). That would kill the Big East dead finally, and we can get on with figuring out what the Big East non-footballers are going to do.

[bleedXblue]

UCONN is pushing the ACC hard.

If I'm the ACC, I take them on and add another school.

What we don't know is the condition under which Pitt and Syracuse
agreed to join.

UCONN b-ball has been the crown jewel of the Big East.

Talk about a GREAT b-ball conference.......it also would cripple the Big East.

[GoMuskies]

The Big East could still get by without UConn. Great basketball but little else (embarrassing that they won the Big East football last year; a bad Louisville team beat them 26-0). The Big East has enough basketball depth that nothing anyone does that mostly affects basketball is going to cripple the Big East. Pitt, Syracuse and UConn leaving means there are still 8 NCAA Tournament teams leftover.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

How soon do we think the Big XII is going to try to work themselves back up to their name? If they just go back to 10, it might just be TCU, not quite killing the Big East yet. If they go 12, it's likely to be TCU and at least one of Louisville and WV (wth maybe BYU in the mix as well). That would kill the Big East dead finally, and we can get on with figuring out what the Big East non-footballers are going to do.
Very interesting. I've heard the TCU rumors too. Hoping BYU is not the second team they add and that it is UL or WVU.

So its ECU, UCF, Army and Navy as the prime candidates to join Big East football?

[GoMuskies]

Not Army. Air Force. Army saw they could not compete in C-USA and got out. I don't think they're interested in trying again.

[X-band '01]

Army has actually rebounded lately under Bobby Ross; my guess is that they'll remain independent. Being independent certainly hasn't hurt Navy in the past decade.

[GoMuskies]

Army has actually rebounded lately under Bobby Ross;

Talk about going back to the archive. Bobby hasn't been Army's coach for five years.

[Founding Father]

How soon do we think the Big XII is going to try to work themselves back up to their name? If they just go back to 10, it might just be TCU, not quite killing the Big East yet. If they go 12, it's likely to be TCU and at least one of Louisville and WV (wth maybe BYU in the mix as well). That would kill the Big East dead finally, and we can get on with figuring out what the Big East non-footballers are going to do.

This is what I want to see along with UCONN becoming the 15th ACC team. I want TCU, BYU and WVU to go to the B12.

I've seen it writen that the Big XII might just add one to get to 10 but I think that is unwise. If they go to 12 teams now, they put themselves in a better spot if the SEC takes just Oklahoma as #14 in 24-36 months.

I can't see why the bball only schools have any interest in allowing any full members in right now that have football programs. The bball only teams want to retain the BE name and auto bid for the NCAA tournament and the football playing full time members don't seem to want to leave to go to CUSA or form a new league.

[SM#24]

Navy makes sense for the BE as a football only member. I'll be curious to see the reaction of MWC or CUSA if the BE poach one of their teams as football only. I can't imagine they would let them remain in their conference for all but football. Air Force, ECU, etc. may have to try and find a new conference home for their other sports. Also, I can't imagine the BE Bball schools letting in those types of schools as full members. My guess is they are none too pleased about the addition of TCU so why would they want more of that.

The next moves are really up to the SEC (for #14) and the B12 (for #10, and/or 11 & 12). I think there's about 2-4 moves there, that will determine a few other moves, but I think this much talked about push to 16 is off the table for at least another 5-6 years.

I think the ACC holds at 14 until ND is fully off the table. I also think that the B10 & Pac12 hold at 12 for the next few years.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Some important tidbits to note:

PeteThamelNYT Pete Thamel
After a confusing night, this much is clear. Missouri hasn't signed their rights away, and the door remains ajar for them to go to the SEC.

PeteThamelNYT Pete Thamel
Boren's mouth started this mess by saying publicly OU needed to explore its options. And now he's continuing it. Good luck, Chuck Neinas.

PeteThamelNYT Pete Thamel
My story on Big 12 dysfunction in the post-Beebe era. Door still ajar for Mizzou's B12 exit to the SEC.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/sports/ncaafootball/big-12-works-on-deal-on-tv-money-as-its-commissioner-resigns.html?ref=sports

slmandel Stewart Mandel
Missouri sends a message to the SEC that, despite what David Boren says, we're still up for grabs.



TravHaney Travis Haney
Here's my story on Boren presser and fact that Big 12 "grant of rights" is not in fact done deal.

http://newsok.com/article/3606804

[XUglow]

My brother is a Mizzou grad and lives in STL. He says that the athletic dept., students, alumni, and sidewalk fans are for moving to the SEC. The faculty and regents are opposed to the move. In his opinion, everyone thought that going to the SEC was a dumb idea at first, but now 90% of the people are going to be pissed off if they don't make the move. (Disclaimer: My brother probably doesn't know a football from a basketball, so I take what he tells me with a grain of salt.)

[GoMuskies]

I would have thought Mizzou in the SEC was a bad idea, too. Not much of a cultural fit I would not have thought. Then last month I spent some time in southwest Missouri (Joplin and vicinity), and it's really an extension of Arkansas down there. If Arkansas is SEC, then Mizzou (at least that particular portion of Missouri) fits right in.

[Masterofreality]

I would have thought Mizzou in the SEC was a bad idea, too. Not much of a cultural fit I would not have thought. Then last month I spent some time in southwest Missouri (Joplin and vicinity), and it's really an extension of Arkansas down there. If Arkansas is SEC, then Mizzou (at least that particular portion of Missouri) fits right in.

Oh, yeah. Ever been to Springfield, MO.? As "hill" as they come.

There's a town that I did some work in named "Ozark" in Missouri. That's all you need to know.

[XUglow]

Oh, yeah. Ever been to Springfield, MO.? As "hill" as they come.

There's a town that I did some work in named "Ozark" in Missouri. That's all you need to know.

Goodness... they have been hanging out with people from Texas and Oklahoma, and we are worried that they will have a culture clash with Arkansas, Mississippi, and Alabama????

[XUFan09]

I would have thought Mizzou in the SEC was a bad idea, too. Not much of a cultural fit I would not have thought. Then last month I spent some time in southwest Missouri (Joplin and vicinity), and it's really an extension of Arkansas down there. If Arkansas is SEC, then Mizzou (at least that particular portion of Missouri) fits right in.

And then there's St. Louis and Kansas City. Except for Hispanics, Missouri demographics project better to overall U.S. demographics better than just about any state. It's a rather divided entity, just like the U.S. in general lol

[xudash]

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-tv-contracts-puts-big-12-and-big-east-in-big-hole-2011-9?nr_email_referer=1&utm_source=Triggermail&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Sports%20Page%20Chart%20Of%20The%20Day&utm_campaign=Sportspage_COTD_092311#ixzz1Yp4oZcDC

[GuyFawkes38]

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-tv-contracts-puts-big-12-and-big-east-in-big-hole-2011-9?nr_email_referer=1&utm_source=Triggermail&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Sports%20Page%20Chart%20Of%20The%20Day&utm_campaign=Sportspage_COTD_092311#ixzz1Yp4oZcDC

That's interesting.

And I think it shows why Texas is so intent on change. Texas is the highest revenue earning program in the country. But they are stuck in the Big12 with a bunch of meh schools that want to share TV revenue (also true, to a lesser degree, of TAMU, OK, and Ok state....they want out, just Texas, so they don't have to support Iowa St).

I think the new Big12 tv contract gives more of payout to Texas. But apparently not enough.

I think it's off when the media portrays Texas as evil. They just want a payout closer to what they are producing.

[BMoreX]

That probably will not happen. One insider said the league is not focused on any Conference USA school and suggested the Big East will play to its strength and zero in on top-flight hoops schools.

http://wvgazette.com/Sports/MitchVingle/201109223606

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

What is the reasoning behind Air Force being considered for the Big East?

[xudash]

http://wvgazette.com/Sports/MitchVingle/201109223606

So let me wash this through the logic computer for a moment:

The BE leadership enters the board room, takes their seats at the table, they lean back and take a deep breath, and they all look at one another with a forlorn grin - the grins are forlorn in equal intensity between the football members and basketball members.

This isn't 2003 and they know it. They know that it wasn't as dire back then for two reasons:


Regardless of what you think about them specifically, there are no UL's and UC's to pick up this time around. The replacement well is perceived to be mostly dry when it comes to subs; and
The power conferences - B1G, SEC, PACxx and ACC - have separated themselves more than what was the case back then, and the Big XII appears more likely to salvage itself at a level that also will be perceived to be materially higher than at what the BE will end up, stability issues notwithstanding.


As a group, it's like facing a relatively full chess board with only a king, four pawns and maybe one rook. The football schools at the table also know how they're perceived around the table - not as a long-term partners, having a mutual aligned interest with schools that do not play BCS football. Everyone knows that WVU has feverishly filed some paperwork to get out. UConn couldn't be more obvious.

So they can't save it the way they want and need to save it. It becomes a staying action: add replacements that make the most sense, then wait for the SEC to choose #14 and see how the Big XII evolves, with respect to expansion, or maybe implosion (as of today, UT is taking the position that negotiating partial shares of the LHN is off the table).

In other words, and in summary, the BE knows its is being forced back to its roots. It cannot solve for BCS football. It may as well start plotting to END UP as a reasonably strong proxy of what it became before adding football to its vision.

It is logical that the "insider's" information may be accurate. Why not. If you can't make it to an all-sports BCS format, maximize the value the hybrid for as long as you can; for as long until all the football schools leave.

[Xavgrad08]

Some writers for Rivals ask if it is time for the B Ball only schools to leave the Big East. http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1269926

[Founding Father]

Some writers for Rivals ask if it is time for the B Ball only schools to leave the Big East. http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1269926

Wouldn't it make more sense for the football playing schools to leave and form a new conference than the other way around?

Wouldn't the bball only school want to keep the BE name? Aren't there more bball only schools than football schools now - especially if UCONN and WVU can get out like they want?

The bball only schools need to tell UC, WVU, U of L and S. Florida that "we are not adding any more full time football members and it might be best for the three of you to leave the BE and get together with Army, Navy, ECU, Temple, Charlotte, etc. and form a new league.

[GuyFawkes38]

This might have been covered earlier on this thread, but are the Big East football schools sharing football TV revenue with the non-football schools?

[xudash]

This might have been covered earlier on this thread, but are the Big East football schools sharing football TV revenue with the non-football schools?

It is my understanding that the football schools DO NOT share football revenue with the basketball schools. However, the reason the hybrid format is still attractive is because it has provided leverage in the overall contract negotiation historically.

Founding Father, that is why the hoops schools don't tell the football schools to get out: if they can sustain a reasonably competitive hybrid format, it would mos likely lead to better television dollars than if they go their separate ways.

The issue is what constitutes "reasonably competitive" in the eyes of the people who make the economic decisions around the television contracts.

[paulxu]

I see where A&M is officially in the SEC, and will start play in all sports next year.
Assume they worked out the potential lawsuit problem.

[RealDeal]

http://gregswaim.com/2011/09/conference-realignment-not-dead/

[GoMuskies]

http://gregswaim.com/2011/09/conference-realignment-not-dead/

Cool but fake.

[Founding Father]

Founding Father, that is why the hoops schools don't tell the football schools to get out: if they can sustain a reasonably competitive hybrid format, it would mos likely lead to better television dollars than if they go their separate ways.

The issue is what constitutes "reasonably competitive" in the eyes of the people who make the economic decisions around the television contracts.

I understand that and obviously Providence and Seton Hall would never be in favor or kicking out Pitt, Syracuse, UCONN or WVU but with those 4 leaving and their replacements being the likes of Army, Navy, Air Force and ECU, I see no real incentive to bring those teams into the BE since those 4 along with the 3 I mentioned above do not and will not command the type of contract BE football had with the departing teams.

[GoMuskies]

UConn and WV have not yet found a new home. They may be stuck, too.

[GuyFawkes38]

WV has done an awful job of controlling expectations. In the past year I've heard that they are locks for the B10, ACC, and SEC. WV has a population of 1.8 million. There's a good chance they are stuck in the Big East.

[LA Muskie]

I see where A&M is officially in the SEC, and will start play in all sports next year.
Assume they worked out the potential lawsuit problem.
There is no lawsuit problem if the Big XII stays together. So in that way, yes, it has been "worked out" so far. My guess is that the SEC is more comfortable now, because if the Big XII craters (this year or later) it will be because someone else left (OK or Mizz being the two most obvious options).

[principal]

The "real" reason the ACC raided the Big East, according to Rick Pitino: the Big East was too strong in basketball, and the ACC was jealous.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/uc/2011/09/26/pitino-big-east-basketball-became-too-strong/

Taking a half truth and stretching it a bit, don't you think?

[BMoreX]

The "real" reason the ACC raided the Big East, according to Rick Pitino: the Big East was too strong in basketball, and the ACC was jealous.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/uc/2011/09/26/pitino-big-east-basketball-became-too-strong/

Taking a half truth and stretching it a bit, don't you think?

He tries to stretch it but it's back down in 15 seconds.

[XUFan09]

He tries to stretch it but it's back down in 15 seconds.

Lol never gets old.

[BMoreX]

@973espn97.3 ESPN FM
Hearing there will be a press conference on Wed to announce that #WVU will be a member of the #SEC

@GoldAndBlueZoneGold And Blue Zone
97.3 ESPN radio saying it was 10-2 vote for WVU to SEC. Vandy and South Carolina voted against WVU #wvu

Also rumors that UL got an invite to Big XII.

[XUFan09]

If these rumors are true, the Big East could be nearing its end (especially if Louisville were to accept the rumored invite).

Need UConn to get accepted to the ACC (maybe with Rutgers) to really put the nail in the coffin. UC and USF could be getting a large dose of humility soon.

[BBC 08]

Need UConn to get accepted to the ACC (maybe with Rutgers) to really put the nail in the coffin. UC and USF could be getting a large dose of humility soon.

I think the nail is in the coffin if UL and WVU go. If they both go, that leaves UConn, Rutgers, USF, UC and maybe TCU left. No way they are surviving then.

[muskienick]

I think the nail is in the coffin if UL and WVU go. If they both go, that leaves UConn, Rutgers, USF, UC and maybe TCU left. No way they are surviving then.

Jeez, it makes me giddy with excitement to think of the come-down that the righteous UC fans would finally have to suffer through. The icing on that cake would be for them to be relegated back to CUSA. Then Mick won't have to look wide and far for scheduling his directional schools each season --- they'd be right in-Conference!

A second-best scenario would be for the few remaining Big East FB schols to remain alive as a Conference by inviting the likes of East Carolina, Central Florida, etc. and lose their BCS standing in the process. If UConn, WVU, U of L, and possibly Rutgers leave also (with TCU changing its mind about coming east), that might be a good possibility since they could lack the numbers of teams with prior BCS status that would be necessary for maintaining its BCS recognition. At that point, the Big East BB schools might recognize that they could be better off without the dregs that remain of their FB brethern and refuse to allow them expansion in that manner. They would then HAVE to separate from the Big East, allowing the BB schools to retain the name and set their own course by creating a league that concentrates on the best possible big-time College BB!

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Giggity!

[outsideobserver11]

http://gregswaim.com/2011/09/conference-realignment-not-dead/

I have heard there is more truth to this than people think. Louisville is a definite school of interest to the Big 12, the Louisville's athletic director is really pulling hard for UC to be brought along as well. Seen several sources also stating that the big 12 is higher on UC than west virginia and academics is a big factor in that. If the SEC doesn't take West Virginia then they are in a tougher spot than most think because of there poor academics as well as small market.

[GoMuskies]

WV fans also enjoy beating up preganant ladies in from out of town for the games. That may be seen as a negative to some.

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/26/lsu-fans-victims-of-assault-after-west-virginia-game/related

I went to a WV/Louisville game in Morgantown in '05. Worst fan experience of my life. Those people were absolute animals. I would never return.

[xu95]

I think the nail is in the coffin if UL and WVU go. If they both go, that leaves UConn, Rutgers, USF, UC and maybe TCU left. No way they are surviving then.

TCU already has one foot out the door. They are not sticking around if even one more team leaves.

xu95

[waggy]

Looks to be a new tweeter. Probably bogus, but West Virginia to SEC per this twit.

http://twitter.com/#!/DrJulianSanders

Mmmm, rumormongering. I'll miss conference realignment when this is all over.

[Founding Father]

Looks to be a new tweeter. Probably bogus, but West Virginia to SEC per this twit.

http://twitter.com/#!/DrJulianSanders

Mmmm, rumormongering. I'll miss conference realignment when this is all over.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/15649798/sec-no-plans-to-add-14th-team-when-am-joins

I think if WVU can't or won't move to the Big XII, they are stuck in the BE for a while. I really hope the Big XII takes:

BYU
WVU
Louisville

[XUglow]

Looks to be a new tweeter. Probably bogus, but West Virginia to SEC per this twit.

http://twitter.com/#!/DrJulianSanders

Mmmm, rumormongering. I'll miss conference realignment when this is all over.

Morgantown put in a strict no-couch-burning ordinance for the LSU game. OK, so the ordinance wasn't really against couch burning. It was against leaving a couch on your porch or in your front yard and inviting people to take your couch and burn it.

Now that WVU fans have taken to beating people up, you are probably going to have to put up your relatives up on game day as well.

Officer, what did I do?
Sir, you left your grandfather on the porch and invited people to steal him off of your porch and beat him up.
Officer, why don't you just go after the people that are stealing old people and beating them up.
Sir, just back off and take a seat. I'm not going to stand here and listen to your feeble attempts to cover your role in corrupting our youth. Put up your couch, put up your grandfather, go inside and lock the door. I'm not going to warn you again.

[BMoreX]

per jon wilner
@wilnerhotlinejon wilner


b12 bracing for mizzou to leave, considering a plan to add 4 schools: Byu, boise, wvu and ville. Many steps btwn here and there, of course

wilnerhotlinejon wilner
read slive's statement carefully. He left himself plenty of wiggle room.


Ap reports:
Matt hayes

how many more signals do we need about mizz to sec? Rt @dave_matter: Just now seeing this: Ap reports that big 12's "special working group" will be president/chancellors from texas, oklahoma, kansas & iowa st

uc cusa

[GoMuskies]

I would love that league for Louisville. Tons of fun with old friends Boise and WV (other than Huggs and their subhuman fans) plus all my neighbors in the Big XII.

[Masterofreality]

A couple of Tweets from Andy Katz last night:

"ESPNAndyKatz Andy Katz
The original Big 12 expansion list once Texas A&M announced going to SEC was Arkansas, BYU, Pitt, Louisville, West Virginia. Ark/Pitt out."


"Of course that's the Big 12's list. Never a guarantee that BYU would say yes then, now, or in the future. Lou/WVU? Tough call."

No mention of SucKS anywhere. Ha, Ha, HA, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Hey Borecats, NO ONE WANTS YOU!!! Hello some crappy non BCS league. What's the difference? You're already in a crappy BCS borderline league. Maybe you should think about the MAC.

[Muskie]

Big East Football Members meeting today to discuss conference future...

[bleedXblue]

They have another meeting today to discuss what ?

They have NO CHOICE but wait and see what happens.

Of course, they could go out and add some crappy teams that really don't improve the quality of the football league.

IMHO, the BE is as good as done. WVU and Louisville look to have some options with the B12. The SEC is NOT going to stay with 13 teams for very long. It just doesn't make sense. Something is going to happen in the next 1-2 months.......

UC looks to be very vulnerable in all of this.

[Titanxman04]

A couple of Tweets from Andy Katz last night:

"ESPNAndyKatz Andy Katz
The original Big 12 expansion list once Texas A&M announced going to SEC was Arkansas, BYU, Pitt, Louisville, West Virginia. Ark/Pitt out."


"Of course that's the Big 12's list. Never a guarantee that BYU would say yes then, now, or in the future. Lou/WVU? Tough call."

No mention of SucKS anywhere. Ha, Ha, HA, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Hey Borecats, NO ONE WANTS YOU!!! Hello some crappy non BCS league. What's the difference? You're already in a crappy BCS borderline league. Maybe you should think about the MAC.

UC could go back to the CUSA. I could see that happening with a couple of other "fall-out" schools that didn't get included in the mergers throughout the country. If a few Big East teams are left out (UC...umm...ummmm) and then a a few schools like Houston and Temple (who's looking better and better after crushing Maryland last week in football) want to try and get a bump up, I could see a conference forming with schools on that level. UC, of course, would be pissed about that though.

But then again, who cares?

[bleedXblue]

UC could go back to the CUSA. I could see that happening with a couple of other "fall-out" schools that didn't get included in the mergers throughout the country. If a few Big East teams are left out (UC...umm...ummmm) and then a a few schools like Houston and Temple (who's looking better and better after crushing Maryland last week in football) want to try and get a bump up, I could see a conference forming with schools on that level. UC, of course, would be pissed about that though.

But then again, who cares?

They are going to pay the price of not having the adequate resources in football (stadium capacity, fan base, small market, zero national following, etc etc) and will end up in a conference that they deserve.

Those that made the decisions to keep Nippert and not move forward with the plans to build a new facility are the ones to blame.

They had an opportunity to dictate and determine their own destiny with back to back BCS bowl appearances and they pissed it away.

[xubrew]

They have another meeting today to discuss what ?

They have NO CHOICE but wait and see what happens.

Of course, they could go out and add some crappy teams that really don't improve the quality of the football league.

IMHO, the BE is as good as done. WVU and Louisville look to have some options with the B12. The SEC is NOT going to stay with 13 teams for very long. It just doesn't make sense. Something is going to happen in the next 1-2 months.......

UC looks to be very vulnerable in all of this.

In regards to football quality, and ONLY football quality, Syracuse and Pitt weren't exactly all that strong. They have big markets, brand names and fan bases. Losing that is what hurts. However, in regards to strictly football quality losing Syracuse and Pitt and replacing them with TCU and East Carolina is actually an upgrade.

Unfortunately, that's not how it works. The football is better, but the league is less stable.

[xubrew]

Another note...

It is my understanding that Boston College is working to keep Connecticut out of the ACC. Like Temple and Nova, they have a long history of pissing each other off and stepping on each other's toes, I guess.

The most recent chapter was the last time the ACC expanded. BC said they weren't going and retained their full Big East status and the votes that came with it as the conference was looking to expand and work out a TV deal. I guess much of what was put in place was with the expectation that BC would be there.

Then, BC suddenly leaves, and it was learned that they had actually been in talks with the ACC the entire time.

UConn goes ballistic and sues BC for a whole bunch of money, and essentially delays their departure.

BC didn't like that. Now that UConn wants in to the ACC, BC is working to keep them out.

IF this is true, it kind of explains why UConn and Rutgers weren't announced sooner, and why the ACC didn't just go straight out to sixteen right away.


I guess the moral of the story is, you may think you're having the last laugh, but that may not be the case. Look at how many times Nova and Temple have obstructed each other. Don't actively work toward obstructing a team simply out of spite. Some day you might need their help, and then it will be their turn to spite you...

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Some more interesting notes:

The Missouri chairman brady deaton is no longer chair of big 12 expansion committee.

And Missouri officials just met with SEC officials.

Here we go...

[GoMuskies]

The ACC should kick BC out and invite in UConn. BC brings the ACC less than nothing. OK, there's a cool roadtrip for fans every other year, but that's it.

[Founding Father]

They have another meeting today to discuss what ?

They have NO CHOICE but wait and see what happens.

Of course, they could go out and add some crappy teams that really don't improve the quality of the football league.

IMHO, the BE is as good as done. WVU and Louisville look to have some options with the B12. The SEC is NOT going to stay with 13 teams for very long. It just doesn't make sense. Something is going to happen in the next 1-2 months.......

UC looks to be very vulnerable in all of this.

Maybe they are meeting to discuss leaving the BE so they can then add anyone they want without needing approval from the bball only schools. I don't see this happening yet though but could see it if and when UCONN, WVU and Louisville find new homes.

I agree with you that UC is in a tough spot. I'd love for the B12 to take in BYU, TCU and WVU. If they then lose Missouri they can add Louisville.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7032707/chuck-neinas-confident-missouri-tigers-stay-big-12

[xubrew]

I don't think BYU would go to the Big Twelve. There is some speculation that BYU has been offered and already turned it down. I don't know if I believe that, but I do know that BYU is very unique when it comes to their outlook on athletics and their institution as a whole.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I don't think BYU would go to the Big Twelve. There is some speculation that BYU has been offered and already turned it down. I don't know if I believe that, but I do know that BYU is very unique when it comes to their outlook on athletics and their institution as a whole.

Agreed. I don't think BYU will go anywhere unless they have to. I highly doubt they would spend all this time and effort to go independent, maximize their revenue/exposure, and then join a conference that has been in disarray for 2 straight years(and possibly many more in the future).

They are being mentioned, but I don't think they'll go either. The question is whether the Big 12 wants to go back to 12 or just 10. The feeling is that the Big 12 higher ups want 12 to establish itself as a top conference again.

If/when Missouri leaves, they'll be at 8. Reading around that they'd look at ND(Never happen), BYU(Unlikely), WVU, UL, TCU, Boise State, and possibly some Conference USA teams

[Founding Father]

I don't think BYU would go to the Big Twelve. There is some speculation that BYU has been offered and already turned it down. I don't know if I believe that, but I do know that BYU is very unique when it comes to their outlook on athletics and their institution as a whole.

I guess we will find out one way or another but I believe BYU will join.

http://byu.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1268216

[XUglow]

I don't think BYU would go to the Big Twelve. There is some speculation that BYU has been offered and already turned it down. I don't know if I believe that, but I do know that BYU is very unique when it comes to their outlook on athletics and their institution as a whole.

BYU doesn't play anything on Sunday. That is not a biggie for football, but it would hurt almost everything else. Baseball series are played Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Soccer and volleyball are typically played Friday and Sunday. Basketball games are scheduled on Sunday, etc. A lot of B12 members are not happy with bringing in a team that would cause that kind of scheduling headaches. Not saying it won't happen...

[xubrew]

Academic classification aside, Boise State brings a ton to the table, at least in the revenue sports.

There are few programs in the country...if any...that are as identifiable as Boise State. The fact that they are a top ten football program is also a bonus. Basketball is hurting, but they do have very nice facilities, and appear to be slowly trending up....albiet VERY slowly. The fanbase is already there. If they were ever in a situation where they became an at-large caliber team, Taco Bell arena (which is every bit as overblown as the blue football field is) would be sold out every single night.

Maybe I'm giving Boise too much credit. I can't really even put my finger on what it is or why it is, but they seem to have a certain intrigue about them that no one else has. Louisville is a bigger and better program all around. Having said that, if I'm the Big Twelve, Boise is still my first choice. I think the academic classification is really holding them back. I believe they were a junior college up until the 1980s.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I guess we will find out one way or another but I believe BYU will join.

http://byu.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1268216

Interesting read. Maybe they will join after all

[xubrew]

BYU doesn't play anything on Sunday. That is not a biggie for football, but it would hurt almost everything else. Baseball series are played Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Soccer and volleyball are typically played Friday and Sunday. Basketball games are scheduled on Sunday, etc. A lot of B12 members are not happy with bringing in a team that would cause that kind of scheduling headaches. Not saying it won't happen...

This is a good point. That's not the only reason. It may not even be the biggest reason, but it is certainly worth noting.

BYU had a top diver forfeit at the national meet because the competition was delayed, and he did not dive on Sunday. That's not a revenue sport, but I'm certain that if it were football or basketball, their outlook would be the same.

I don't have a real problem with it. In a way I admire it. It is, however, hard to work with when it comes to scheduling. It's hard on the selection committees. They had to move the start of the baseball tournament a few years ago so BYU's region would not have to play on Sunday. Had their been a weather delay, BYU would have probably forfeit or forced the other team to sit around for an entire day. I do recall one year where BYU would have played their Elite Eight game on a Sunday, and they said they would forfeit the game if they made it that far. The committee actually had to alter the bracket for them.

As difficult as that is on the NCAA selection committee, it would potentially be hard for the league office as well.

From an athletic department standpoint and scheduling standpoint. Sunday is a good day to play. There are no classes. There are only two days where that is the case, and Sunday is half of them.

[Founding Father]

BYU doesn't play anything on Sunday. That is not a biggie for football, but it would hurt almost everything else. Baseball series are played Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Soccer and volleyball are typically played Friday and Sunday. Basketball games are scheduled on Sunday, etc. A lot of B12 members are not happy with bringing in a team that would cause that kind of scheduling headaches. Not saying it won't happen...

What conference does BYU play all their sports sans football now?

Has BYU ever been slated to play on Sunday during the NCAA Tournament?

[GoMuskies]

Has BYU ever been slated to play on Sunday during the NCAA Tournament?

The Selection Committe obviously knows about BYU's Sunday issue and schedules around it. As 'brew mentioned above, one year they forgot about it and put BYU in a region that held its final on Sunday. There was a contingency plan to flip BYU into a different region if they made the Sweet Sixteen, but they went out in the first round.

BYU will be in the WCC with Gonzaga for the rest of its sports.

[XUglow]

The Selection Committe obviously knows about BYU's Sunday issue and schedules around it. As 'brew mentioned above, one year they forgot about it and put BYU in a region that held its final on Sunday. There was a contingency plan to flip BYU into a different region if they made the Sweet Sixteen, but they went out in the first round.

BYU will be in the WCC with Gonzaga for the rest of its sports.

The Big XII would have to finish the conference tourney on Saturday. You get big TV money from semi-final games on Saturday and finals on Sunday. They would lose the weekend audience for the semi's at a minimum.

[GoMuskies]

The Big East somehow manages to get by with a Saturday final. I assume the Big XII could manage, too, although it is obviously not their preference.

[waggy]

Big step for Missouri's conference future may come Tuesday



No Board of Curators members responded to interview requests made by The Star on Tuesday. But three sources closely aligned with the board or the school told The Star that the curators’ prime concern is a Big 12 exit fee of up to $40 million.

“If it were just a matter of saying let’s go say goodbye Big 12 and join the SEC,” one source told The Star, “if there was no litigation or a few dollars involved, it would be an easy choice.

“If it comes down to we’ve got to come up with 40 million bucks, or whatever the number might be, that’s a different deal.”

Nebraska was reported to have forfeited $9 million in Big 12 revenue when it left for the Big Ten before this season and Colorado roughly $7 million when it moved to what is now the Pac-12.

Those figures were below the full amount that could have been withheld according to Big 12 bylaws:

100 percent of eligible revenues for a two-year period will be withheld if a school gives less than six months’ notice of departure.

90 percent if the notice is between six months to just under a year.

80 percent if notice is received less than 18 months but to a year prior to departure.

70 percent if notice is received less than two years but prior to 18 months to departure.

50 percent if notice is given before the two-year “effective date” of departure.

Exit fees for Texas A&M, which will join the Southeastern Conference next year and announced Aug. 31 that it would withdraw from the Big 12 on June 30, have been estimated at $30 million.


http://www.kansascity.com/2011/09/28/3172411/realignment-update-mu-curators.html

[xbus]

obviously never will happen but it is cool to checkout anyway. Interesting to notice who was left off... http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/35976/the-hoopsbag-makes-its-glorious-return

[xubrew]

I'm now hearing reports that BYU WILL join the Big Twelve. This, of course, came to be about an hour after I said they wouldn't.

I don't know if I believe them because it's the Rivals page, but they seem pretty convinced that it could be announced this weekend.

[BBC 08]

Interesting that Butler isn't in one of those conferences.

[paulxu]

Wait till firedupkaren gets ahold of this news.

[Mack Attack]

And no Bearcats...

[Founding Father]

I'm now hearing reports that BYU WILL join the Big Twelve. This, of course, came to be about an hour after I said they wouldn't.

I don't know if I believe them because it's the Rivals page, but they seem pretty convinced that it could be announced this weekend.

Whether true or not, it makes sense. BYU does not get the ND deal as an independent and I think it would be hard to turn down a chance to play in a conference with Oklahoma, OSU and Texas for football and the same plus KU and KSU for bball. Automatic BCS bid of course too.

[xudash]

What about UD and its always rabbits fan base?

[Muskie]

What about UD and its always rabbits fan base?

Not included in that particular article... but right below:

Has any first year coach done more with his squad in a shorter amount of time than Dayton coach Archie Miller? After losing two of last year's top freshmen in Juwan Staten and Brandon Spearman to transfers, Kid Yuma signed former Providence commit, Alex Gavrilovic, brought in transfers from Georgetown (Vee Sanford) and LSU (Matt Derebecker) and as of yesterday landed former St. John's commit, Jevon Thomas.

Brennan: I think you could argue that Miller's brother, Arizona coach Sean Miller, resurrected a program as fast as anyone in the country. Also, let's not forget what John Calipari did in his very first season at Kentucky. That was basically a mediocre-to-awesome land speed record.

One under-the-radar candidate here? Iowa State coach Fred Hoiberg. Hoiberg's recruiting hasn't been off the charts, but his ability to score so many impact transfers (Royce White, Chris Allen, Korie Lucious and so on) in one season put the Cyclones in a position to improve mightily in his second year. Given where this program has been for the past decade, that's quite a feat.

[Kahns Krazy]

obviously never will happen but it is cool to checkout anyway. Interesting to notice who was left off... http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/35976/the-hoopsbag-makes-its-glorious-return

Why would you try to be "realistic" about your imaginary conference when you've already ignored the football impact. What a stupid exercise. Next, I'll prepare a realistic colony plan for the imaginary planet Bloort.

[BandAid]

Why would you try to be "realistic" about your imaginary conference when you've already ignored the football impact. What a stupid exercise. Next, I'll prepare a realistic colony plan for the imaginary planet Bloort.

Please, everyone knows that Bloort doesn't have the natural resources necessary to support a colony. We're talking the survival of humanity here!

[Masterofreality]

Not included in that particular article... but right below:

Has any first year coach done more with his squad in a shorter amount of time than Dayton coach Archie Miller? After losing two of last year's top freshmen in Juwan Staten and Brandon Spearman to transfers, Kid Yuma signed former Providence commit, Alex Gavrilovic, brought in transfers from Georgetown (Vee Sanford) and LSU (Matt Derebecker) and as of yesterday landed former St. John's commit, Jevon Thomas.

Brennan: I think you could argue that Miller's brother, Arizona coach Sean Miller, resurrected a program as fast as anyone in the country. Also, let's not forget what John Calipari did in his very first season at Kentucky. That was basically a mediocre-to-awesome land speed record.

One under-the-radar candidate here? Iowa State coach Fred Hoiberg. Hoiberg's recruiting hasn't been off the charts, but his ability to score so many impact transfers (Royce White, Chris Allen, Korie Lucious and so on) in one season put the Cyclones in a position to improve mightily in his second year. Given where this program has been for the past decade, that's quite a feat.

The question came from a udump fan. Of course he'd say that, but Brennan said nothing about the Cryers, just other guys.

BTW. Thomas has a real bad history, both in and out of the classroom. He's been through a bunch of schools and has had run-ins with numerous coaches. His grades are appalling. He has been disadvantaged though, having been raised by his sister, who is barely older than him. Whether Thomas actually ever enrolls at the dump is questionable.

Oh, and Derenbecker has a crazy father and is a marginal talent.....but he's better than the white, skinny scarecrows that the Cryer fans are used to seeing, so I guess that's something.

[xubrew]

Whether true or not, it makes sense. BYU does not get the ND deal as an independent and I think it would be hard to turn down a chance to play in a conference with Oklahoma, OSU and Texas for football and the same plus KU and KSU for bball. Automatic BCS bid of course too.

It makes sense to you and me. Does it make sense to them?? They may figure that their autonomy is worth more than conference affiliation, even if that conference is a major conference.

They may not get the ND deal, but the deal they did get isn't bad. They have a deal with ESPN, they have their own network (sort of. It's called BYU-TV, but it's really LDS-TV), they have a home for all other sports and a TV deal for their own network with the WCC.

The thing about BYU is that they stick to their principles. They don't play on Sunday, and would forfeit if a situation arose where they had to. They removed a star player from the basketball team for an honor code violation when it appeared as though they had a top five team and didn't even think twice about it. They have a very unique approach to how they run their shop. If they get the slightest inkling that the Big Twelve would in any way compromise how they run their shop, they'll pass. I can almost guarantee it.

[xudash]

I'm watching Pitt at home (Heinz Field) against #16 USF.

The key point of this post is that they're scrolling on the bottom of the screen that the TN AD is openly stating that the SEC will move to expand beyond 13 teams quickly. I take that to mean by one team, taking the conference to 14 teams.

Who knows which conference gets raided for that team, but I would think that the Big XII and ACC are on red alert at this point.

Otherwise, what a ridiculous showing for Mark May's alma mater. Not the game, which they're winning at this point. Their attendance is ridiculous. The upper decks of Heinz field are nothing but empty yellow seats. There are empty seats everywhere in the lower portions of the stadium.

Pitt was one of the BE football flagships; consider that for how irrelevant the BE has become. There were even empty seats in the upper sections for the ND game last week.

[Masterofreality]

The key point of this post is that they're scrolling on the bottom of the screen that the TN AD is openly stating that the SEC will move to expand beyond 13 teams quickly. I take that to mean by one team, taking the conference to 14 teams.

Who knows which conference gets raided for that team, but I would think that the Big XII and ACC are on red alert at this point.


I would say that Missouri will be moving soon. Then the Big 12 goes after TCU, Houston, BYU.

Nothing there saves Big Greased football.

[xudash]

I would say that Missouri will be moving soon. Then the Big 12 goes after TCU, Houston, BYU.

Nothing there saves Big Greased football.

Check this out MOR:

http://www.bigeastcoastbias.com/2011/9/29/2458627/conference-realignment-rumors-of-a-big-east-mass-exodus

[GoMuskies]

Rick Pitino seems bound and determined to destroy Louisville athletics. I really don't like him.

[bleedXblue]

I just dont see UC in the Big 12.

[outsideobserver11]

Big rumor being reported this morning:

BYU, UC, and Louisville have all been offered and accepted bids into the big 12. West Virginia and TCU have been offered and not accepted at this point. West Virginia is still holding out and toying around with the SEC decision. TCU is somewhat in limbo at this point because if west virginia says yes then the league takes TCU and the league goes to 14 teams. If West Virginia says no, then TCU is not taken and the league stays at 12. This is the word coming out of both UC and Oklahoma this morning. Oklahoma is a huge backer of UC getting into the Big 12 due to the good relationship they have developed playing each other the last couple of years, and Texas is backing UC as well to open up the Ohio recruiting pipeline.

Makes it seem as though UC is just going to benefit from their location and get somewhat used by the rest of the conference.

[xubrew]

Big rumor being reported this morning:

BYU, UC, and Louisville have all been offered and accepted bids into the big 12. West Virginia and TCU have been offered and not accepted at this point. West Virginia is still holding out and toying around with the SEC decision. TCU is somewhat in limbo at this point because if west virginia says yes then the league takes TCU and the league goes to 14 teams. If West Virginia says no, then TCU is not taken and the league stays at 12. This is the word coming out of both UC and Oklahoma this morning. Oklahoma is a huge backer of UC getting into the Big 12 due to the good relationship they have developed playing each other the last couple of years, and Texas is backing UC as well to open up the Ohio recruiting pipeline.

Makes it seem as though UC is just going to benefit from their location and get somewhat used by the rest of the conference.

That makes no sense. If the league extended an invitation to TCU, they're not in limbo. If they say yes, they're in. That's what an invitation is. It's not going to be dependent on what one other specific school does once it has been offered. So, were they invited or not??

If that is the wording of the speculation, I wouldn't read too much into it.

The high-school football in Cincinnati would help as well. UC isn't a standout program across the board, but they can hold their own and it allows other standout programs a little more of an open door to a rich high-school football area.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Baylor rivals site is reporting that BYU will join the Big 12.

It will be interesting if UC, UL, WVU and TCU follow suit.

What happens to USF?

[chico]

I just dont see UC in the Big 12.

Are you telling me UC can't win the Big 12?

[xudash]

Baylor rivals site is reporting that BYU will join the Big 12.

It will be interesting if UC, UL, WVU and TCU follow suit.

What happens to USF?

USF = C-USA

UC will get slaughtered in the Big XII

[GoMuskies]

what happens to usf?

c-usa

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

USF = C-USA

UC will get slaughtered in the Big XII


c-usa

My UC against Big 12 competition this year prediction:
Baylor: Loss
Oklahoma - Loss
Oklahoma State - Loss
Texas - Loss
Texas Tech - Win
Texas A&M - Loss
Kansas - Win
Kansas State - Loss
Missouri - Loss
Iowa State - Toss up

[xubrew]

USF = C-USA

UC will get slaughtered in the Big XII

If the Big Twelve goes back to a North/South format, UC won't get killed too badly. Baylor, Texas, TX Tech, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State would all be in the south. UC would be in with Louisville, Kansas, K State, Mizzou, Iowa State and the like. That's way more manageable.

In regards to basketball, it'll be easier for them than the old Big East.

[GoMuskies]

UC will get slaughtered in the Big XII

The world needs ditchdiggers, too.

[bleedXblue]

I'm not buying that UC is getting offered into the B12.

I just don't see the fit and for that matter, Louisville being a good fit.

The B12 has always been a tradtional Midwest (Heartland)/SW conference.

TCU and BYU make perfect geographical sense to me.

[GoMuskies]

By the way, if anyone here needs proof that the Boston market just doesn't care about/know about/understand college sports, this idea on conference realignment from the Boston Globe ought to help you out: http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/football/articles/2011/09/30/a_plan_to_fix_the_big_east/

[GoMuskies]

I'm not sure how BYU makes more geographical sense than Louisville.

[xubrew]

By the way, if anyone here needs proof that the Boston market just doesn't care about/know about/understand college sports, this idea on conference realignment from the Boston Globe ought to help you out: http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/football/articles/2011/09/30/a_plan_to_fix_the_big_east/

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[xubrew]

I'm not buying that UC is getting offered into the B12.

I just don't see the fit and for that matter, Louisville being a good fit.

The B12 has always been a tradtional Midwest (Heartland)/SW conference.

TCU and BYU make perfect geographical sense to me.

I'm not buying that anyone has been offered yet. I think a lot of the reports that are coming out are trying to be first rather than be right, so anything that is remotely speculative is being reported.

Having said that, I can understand the interest in BYU. I can also understand the interest in a twelve team/two division league. If they lose Mizzou and need four more teams, I can't imagine that Cincinnati wouldn't at least be in the discussion.

UC went to two BCS bowls and finished in the top fifteen of the BCS standings. If the Big Twelve invites them, they get to claim that as if a Big Twelve team had done it.

UC is in a rich area for high school football and basketball, which opens a door for the rest of the conference.

UC is a travel partner for Louisville.

UC also offers up the Cincinnati market.

They do bring some things to the table. It's not outrageous to think that the Big Twelve would be interested in them.

[SM#24]

I'm not sure how BYU makes more geographical sense than Louisville.

Because people in north eastern quadrant of this country think cities west of the Mississippi are just as close to each other as those in the northeast.

If proximity is what makes geographical sense, then the Pac 12 makes no sense; those cities are really far apart. I like how the media gets on its high horse about the volleyball team having to go from Syracuse to Florida, and what an injustice that is; yet Wash St traveling to Arizona for a match makes perfect sense.

[GoMuskies]

Must be. I did a little MaqQuesting, and I believe the closest Big 12 member to Provo, UT is Texas Tech, a mere 875 miles away. Manhattan, KS is the only other Big 12 member under a thosand miles from Provo, and it's 975 miles.

[XUFan09]

Because people in north eastern quadrant of this country think cities west of the Mississippi are just as close to each other as those in the northeast.

If proximity is what makes geographical sense, then the Pac 12 makes no sense; those cities are really far apart. I like how the media gets on its high horse about the volleyball team having to go from Syracuse to Florida, and what an injustice that is; yet Wash St traveling to Arizona for a match makes perfect sense.

Haha this is so true.

[XUglow]

Because people in north eastern quadrant of this country think cities west of the Mississippi are just as close to each other as those in the northeast.

If proximity is what makes geographical sense, then the Pac 12 makes no sense; those cities are really far apart. I like how the media gets on its high horse about the volleyball team having to go from Syracuse to Florida, and what an injustice that is; yet Wash St traveling to Arizona for a match makes perfect sense.

People never used to realize how much travel we did, and it was just the Pac 8 when I was at Cal. It was a long way to Wazzu, and the guys at UCLA and USC had it worse.

The proximity issue is big for people from Europe as well. They would come to the home office in Silicon Valley for a couple of weeks. On their weekend, they would plan on driving to LA to San Diego and over to Las Vegas or something like that, and they had calculated just 2 to 3 hours in the car. When they showed up Monday morning, they looked nearly dead.

[Eastside_J]

I'm not buying that UC is getting offered into the B12.

I just don't see the fit and for that matter, Louisville being a good fit.

The B12 has always been a tradtional Midwest (Heartland)/SW conference.

TCU and BYU make perfect geographical sense to me.

What is there not to see?

UC and Louisville are basketball schools with long traditions and national championship banners and both have high quality FB programs.

Both bring attractive, non-overlapping or duplicative markets.

UL is admittedly the more attractive partner due to their extremely strong financial position, donor base and corporate sponsorship base. Louisville has the luxury of being in a town without significant pro-sports. They are the only big game in town and the money and interest subsequenlty flows to them.

Regardless of your opinions on the matter, I suggest you get used to the idea. :D

[Masterofreality]

What is there not to see?

UC and Louisville are basketball schools with long traditions and national championship banners and both have high quality FB programs.


Well, in SucKS case, that would be a banner that happened before Loyola Chicago won theirs.

And CCNY used to compete in big time college basketball too.

When the Borecats can actually sell out a second rate 30,000 stadium consistently and win something other than a second rate crap football league, maybe you could consider them high quality. Their touted BCS Bowl appearance was abjectly embarrassing and the coach who was the coach at that time and the AD who brought that coach in couldn't wait to leave.

[Founding Father]

Well, in SucKS case, that would be a banner that happened before Loyola Chicago won theirs.

And CCNY used to compete in big time college basketball too.

When the Borecats can actually sell out a second rate 30,000 stadium consistently and win something other than a second rate crap football league, maybe you could consider them high quality. Their touted BCS Bowl appearance was abjectly embarrassing and the coach who was the coach at that time and the AD who brought that coach in couldn't wait to leave.

True.

Also, isn't the B12's TV deal negotiated? They wouldn't get more TV money by adding UC. What does UC bring to the B12? Not much.

[danaandvictory]

As funny from a schadenfreude perspective as it would be for UC to end up with their weenus in their hand when all this clears, I'm pretty content to see the Bearcats head west to the Big XII as part of a large posse and blow up the Big East but good, provided the outcome is XU in an improved venue with strengthened East Coast ties.

It would also lead to an interesting recruiting situation, as UC would be the easternmost outpost of a Great Plains conference, perhaps forcing them to reconfigure their recruiting strategy, while X would continue its preferred positioning in an eastern-focused conference.

[dc_x]

True.

Also, isn't the B12's TV deal negotiated? They wouldn't get more TV money by adding UC. What does UC bring to the B12? Not much.

I'm sure it has provisions that would allow the Big 12 to renegotiate if there is a change in membership.

It seems like this whole deal is just a big game of survival. Right now the Big East and Big 12 are the 2 weakest leagues, and one of them is going to die. The best move for the Big 12 is to kill the Big East.

[Founding Father]

I'm sure it has provisions that would allow the Big 12 to renegotiate if there is a change in membership.

It seems like this whole deal is just a big game of survival. Right now the Big East and Big 12 are the 2 weakest leagues, and one of them is going to die. The best move for the Big 12 is to kill the Big East.

Would any new deal be any bigger just by adding teams like BYU, TCU, WVU, Louisville and UC?

http://dennis-dodd.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/32384521

[bleedXblue]

Well, in SucKS case, that would be a banner that happened before Loyola Chicago won theirs.

And CCNY used to compete in big time college basketball too.

When the Borecats can actually sell out a second rate 30,000 stadium consistently and win something other than a second rate crap football league, maybe you could consider them high quality. Their touted BCS Bowl appearance was abjectly embarrassing and the coach who was the coach at that time and the AD who brought that coach in couldn't wait to leave.

Pretty much my sentiment. UC football has no tradition, almost no fan base to speak of and has second rate facilities. Add to that from my perspective that there are more attractive football schools that make more sense than UC. Like I said, I just don't see it, but I have been wrong before. I think the odds are much greater that the Big East acts quickly and tries to add a couple of teams to fill the defections. Another more likely scenario is this whole thing blows up with the SEC and B12 leaving UC out of the mix and they will be left with bascially the old CUSA.

[xudash]

As funny from a schadenfreude perspective as it would be for UC to end up with their weenus in their hand when all this clears, I'm pretty content to see the Bearcats head west to the Big XII as part of a large posse and blow up the Big East but good, provided the outcome is XU in an improved venue with strengthened East Coast ties.

It would also lead to an interesting recruiting situation, as UC would be the easternmost outpost of a Great Plains conference, perhaps forcing them to reconfigure their recruiting strategy, while X would continue its preferred positioning in an eastern-focused conference.

Spot on with this dav. UC is not a true BCS caliber program. That was made obvious by its humiliating losses in its two BCS bowls. Those appearances were made possible only be virtue of the fact that it only needed to make it through its crap BE football conference.

I like the idea of UC going to the heartland, helping to open up the East and the BE to X. That outcome doesn't bother me at all.

[xubrew]

Would any new deal be any bigger just by adding teams like BYU, TCU, WVU, Louisville and UC?

http://dennis-dodd.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/32384521

I hate to answer with a non-answer....but it depends. I don't know the specifics of their TV deal, but changing the format may enable them to renegotiate the first and second tiers of the TV deal. If they go out to twelve, it also gives them a conference championship in football, which would be worth in the neighborhood of what a BCS bowl is worth, or possibly more.

The biggest attraction that Louisville and Cincinnati bring, at least as far as TV goes, is the third tier. I don't know what the specifics of the Big Twelve's current deal is, but essentially those who own the first and second tier rights (ESPN and Fox) cannot black out a game in a state where the conference has a team. That may not seem like a big deal to Oklahoma and Texas football, but to pretty much everyone else, it is. Baylor and Iowa State (likely third tier teams) would most likely be in favor because their football and basketball games would be carried all throughout Kentucky and Ohio. That also brings in more money for the conference, because more providers are carrying the broadcasts of the third tier games.

Louisville and Cincinnati are travel partners that are in different states. Louisville has very good basketball, which would enrich the TV deal even more, and UC is trending up, not to mention potential NCAA Tournament revenue sharing. UC is located in a place with rich high school football and basketball. All and all, I can see why they'd be a very attractive package.

[Masterofreality]

As I posted above, the Big Least is voting today to offer Temple a full membership.

This would be a body blow to the A-10. The level of good goes down and the level of suck increases.

[GoMuskies]

As I posted above, the Big Least is voting today to offer Temple a full membership.

This would be a body blow to the A-10. The level of good goes down and the level of suck increases.

Lose-Lose for the A-10 and the Big East.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Its going to be very tough for the A10 to invite quality teams if Temple does leave.

[xubrew]

Its going to be very tough for the A10 to invite quality teams if Temple does leave.

Uhh, one candidate practically bounces to mind.

If we do end up taking this mystery program, they would most likely replace Dayton as our fixture home-and-home series.

[danaandvictory]

If the league is going to get worse, we should push for a reduction in conference games from 16 to 14. That way the schools that are serious about basketball (i.e., Xavier) can add two more marquee non-conference games rather than have two more sub-200 RPI snoozefests.

[Founding Father]

I know people have joked for years about booting out LaSalle, Fordham and Duquesne but can it even be done?

Charlotte probably won't be around too much longer even if no more shake ups occur.

UMASS starts playing football in the MAC next year and may also find a new home in 2-3 years for all sports.

SLU might decide to join the Valley.

XU really has to hope the bball only BE schools invite XU to join them or we might end up in a A10 without Temple or UMASS but still has the 2-3 bottom feeders.

[Juice]

I know people have joked for years about booting out LaSalle, Fordham and Duquesne but can it even be done?

Charlotte probably won't be around too much longer even if no more shake ups occur.

UMASS starts playing football in the MAC next year and may also find a new home in 2-3 years for all sports.

SLU might decide to join the Valley.

XU really has to hope the bball only BE schools invite XU to join them or we might end up in a A10 without Temple or UMASS but still has the 2-3 bottom feeders.

If this does happen down the road, I would like to see a move to the CAA, if that would even be possible at the time than remain in a gutted A10.

[Title_BU]

Uhh, one candidate practically bounces to mind.

If we do end up taking this mystery program, they would most likely replace Dayton as our fixture home-and-home series.

It would probably require a creation of East/West divisions, but, if the Big East does mean to keep itself on life support a few years, I think they'd be curious.

[xubrew]

If this does happen down the road, I would like to see a move to the CAA, if that would even be possible at the time than remain in a gutted A10.

The Colonial has four or five teams that are routinely worse than anyone in the Atlantic Ten minus maybe Fordham. Towson is ridiculously bad. It's also rare that their best teams are as good as the Atlantic Ten's best. La Salle and Duquesne aren't anywhere close to being as bad as the bottom of the Colonial. If anything, those teams are trending up. Especially Duqeusne.


I know people have joked for years about booting out LaSalle, Fordham and Duquesne but can it even be done?

I cannot think of a single case where a full member has been kicked out of a conference. I can't think of a scenario where they would be unless they cut several sports, or something like that. I don't think it is at all realistic.



It would probably require a creation of East/West divisions, but, if the Big East does mean to keep itself on life support a few years, I think they'd be curious.

The Atlantic Ten currently plays in a one division format with all fourteen teams with sixteen conference games. It does not even come close to resembling a balanced schedule. If they were to add Butler (or anyone else for that matter) I'm guessing they'd keep that same jumbled format.

[Title_BU]

I understand what the current A10 format is.

I'm just saying, the only way there'd be interest is if there were divisions. The east coast programs and the travel to those programs, without it, just isn't attractive.

The western teams consolidated probably would however

[HuskyMuskie]

I understand what the current A10 format is.

I'm just saying, the only way there'd be interest is if there were divisions. The east coast programs and the travel to those programs, without it, just isn't attractive.

The western teams consolidated probably would however

You're clueless.

[Title_BU]

Umm, no

Can't guarantee they'd be interested with, but without? Not happening

[Muskie]

I understand what the current A10 format is.

I'm just saying, the only way there'd be interest is if there were divisions. The east coast programs and the travel to those programs, without it, just isn't attractive.

The western teams consolidated probably would however

I can see why there would be hesitation on Butler's part. The east coast is a long way to go for some of the non-revenue sports.

[xudash]

I have what I believe to be a grounded perception here as far as Butler is concerned, then I'll share a few facts to support the perception.

Perception: Butler is well positioned in the HL. The HL is a crappy league with virtually no upside. The directional schools in it aren't going to propel it. Otherwise, schools like Detriot, Loyola and Valpo do not have enough firepower to move it up, versus what a Dayton, Richmond, UMass, URI, etc. are capable of doing for the A10 when they get it going. Look at Richmond recently. Look at GW a few years ago.

As I understand it, the HL also has a limitation on the amount of dollars that can be allocated to a hoops budget. That works magnificently for Butler. In essence, it keeps others in check from outspending it, while it combs the countryside, looking for under-the-radar talent. It also works for as long as Stevens stays with it. In that environment, Butler is safe and should remain competitive to the point of making it to the Dance in most years.

In essence, Butler is pulling - has been pulling - a Gonzaga: dominant force in a weaker conference. It doesn't last forever, but it's a ride worth riding until something gives: Stevens leaving or something else.

Isn't that the gist of it for Butler, especially in light of the following:


$2.6 million hoops budget.
7.1k average home attendance.
A facility that cannot be configured with suites, etc. to maximize its revenue potential, as well as the fact that a proposed remodeling job will take its capacity down to something like under 9k.
The school plays football at some level.
Otherwise, it's overall athletic budget is small and the number of sports it fields is very limited.


Butler had a helluva ride the last two years, but you have to be honest about that: they caught lightening in a bottle when a few forces combined at the right time to position them to do that. Even Xavier helped them when we exhausted K-State in that epic game. Otherwise, as a program, Butler doesn't come close to having the capacity/resources to make it deep into the tournament on some kind of frequent basis.

Assuming things move in the direction of the BE hoops schools splitting from the football schools in a manner where they retain the BE brand and MSG for the balance of that contract, and assuming Butler is on the radar of the BE hoops leadership, it would face a substantial amount of change in its athletic department to pull off a transition to such a league.

Xavier's program is ready to pull the trigger now on such a membership and it would never look back. Butler probably could make the transition, but it would have to invest more to survive the competition. At the very least, Butler would face a great deal of change were it to make the transition. And it wouldn't be easy going from biggest fish in a small, crappy pond to facing Xavier, Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, maybe ND, etc., etc. throughout league play, unless Butler digs up a few more Gordon Heywards, Macks, and floppies at the same time along the way.

[Title_BU]

1. Of course Butler would spend significantly more in the Big East. The revenue alone should tell you that. Regardless, the basketball budget will continue to climb to whatever level is necessary. The primary restriction, in the past, was the sensibilities of a departed president. He was actually just replaced by a guy from Villanova.

2. The Horizon League? Is it good? No not really, it's a league that is going to finish somewhere around 10th to 12th annually in RPI. It is what it is. My question is what exactly do you thing the A10 looks like sans Temple. It'd have an awful lot of the HL earmarks. (the whole of the east is basically garbage)

3. On moving elsewhere. Please. Xavier is a fine program. It will continue to be a very fine program. It has absolutely nothing on Butler, however. I'm not saying it's better, that's entirely ones opinion, only in the current state of college basketball theres not much difference. up and down college basketball of two mirrored pairs in such reasonable proximity.

I have no clue if either program will be leaving anywhere in the next couple of years, but theyre both equally capable.

[waggy]

The HL is a crappy league with virtually no upside.

Are back to back national championship games upside?


I have what I believe to be a grounded perception here as far as Butler is concerned

Pfft.


Xavier's program is ready to pull the trigger now on such a membership

Now? Like today? Maybe tomorrow?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

2. The Horizon League? Is it good? No not really, it's a league that is going to finish somewhere around 10th to 12th annually in RPI. It is what it is. My question is what exactly do you thing the A10 looks like sans Temple. It'd have an awful lot of the HL earmarks. (the whole of the east is basically garbage)
.

This is the point I've been trying to make on here for awhile. Without Temple, the A10 would be rendered pretty useless as a league. It makes it that much more difficult to attract quality teams

[xudash]

1. Of course Butler would spend significantly more in the Big East. The revenue alone should tell you that. Regardless, the basketball budget will continue to climb to whatever level is necessary. The primary restriction, in the past, was the sensibilities of a departed president. He was actually just replaced by a guy from Villanova.

2. The Horizon League? Is it good? No not really, it's a league that is going to finish somewhere around 10th to 12th annually in RPI. It is what it is. My question is what exactly do you thing the A10 looks like sans Temple. It'd have an awful lot of the HL earmarks. (the whole of the east is basically garbage)

3. On moving elsewhere. Please. Xavier is a fine program. It will continue to be a very fine program. It has absolutely nothing on Butler, however. I'm not saying it's better, that's entirely ones opinion, only in the current state of college basketball theres not much difference. up and down college basketball of two mirrored pairs in such reasonable proximity.

I have no clue if either program will be leaving anywhere in the next couple of years, but theyre both equally capable.

Re #1: I understand the "revenue will (should) go up part" but you're coming from a low number now and you do have football providing some level of drag on your athletic department. Nonetheless, if you now have an administration that really gets it, then it will understand what it takes to really make it work. I have to imagine that a Nova guy would have a clue about this. Just be ready for the investment, because it isn't anything like you've been able to get away with up until now.

Re #2: The A10 cannot afford to lose Temple, but it will be losing Temple soon enough (I imagine). The A10 would still have the likes of Xavier, Richmond, St. Louis, Dayton, and URI, but there would be no doubt that it would be hurt badly by Temple's departure. Frankly, the reality of it is that the A10 is heading for the day when it will lose Temple, UMass and Charlotte to football aspirations. So it is certainly safe to assume that the A10 will be drifting down towards the HL's ranks.

Re #3: I think you're confusing results with program positioning. Butler achieved extraordinary results in the last two years. Kudos to you. At the risk of contradicting myself, those results can be used to leverage the program upward. Butler has room to move upward in terms of facilities improvements and better attendance. I don't know if you guys otherwise travel charter or not.

Otherwise, Xavier has a major material advantage over Butler: the Cintas Center and its ability to generate cash, as well as average home attendance of over 10k. Xavier wouldn't make the Forbes list without that, and Butler can't make that list because of how Hinkle is configured and because of your attendance numbers (7k'ish). Before you hop on that statement by noting that attendance will go up with a stronger conference, your announced renovation project for Hinkle reflects a sizable reduction in capacity to the 8k or so range, if I recall correctly. The bottom line on this specific point is that these programs operate at different levels financially today.

That noted, I agree that both program are well positioned today to take advantage of change that may be forthcoming.

[xudash]

Quote:
Originally Posted by xudash
The HL is a crappy league with virtually no upside.

"Are back to back national championship games upside?"

Are you suggesting that Butler's performance in the NCAA Tournament provided upside for the HL? The subject was the HL, not Butler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xudash
I have what I believe to be a grounded perception here as far as Butler is concerned

"Pfft."

Your entitled to your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xudash
Xavier's program is ready to pull the trigger now on such a membership

"Now? Like today? Maybe tomorrow?"

Are your reading comprehension skills that bad? The point is that Xavier is positioned to move "as-is." If and when it receives the invitation, X will be ready, because it's ready to go now and doesn't need lead time for any aspect of the move.

[waggy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by xudash
The HL is a crappy league with virtually no upside.

"Are back to back national championship games upside?"

Are you suggesting that Butler's performance in the NCAA Tournament provided upside for the HL? The subject was the HL, not Butler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xudash
I have what I believe to be a grounded perception here as far as Butler is concerned

"Pfft."

Your entitled to your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xudash
Xavier's program is ready to pull the trigger now on such a membership

"Now? Like today? Maybe tomorrow?"

Are your reading comprehension skills that bad? The point is that Xavier is positioned to move "as-is." If and when it receives the invitation, X will be ready, because it's ready to go now and doesn't need lead time for any aspect of the move.

If "upside" means being able to get to the final four and play for a NC, back to back, then I'm wondering just a little bit whether all this conference envy (on one hand) and arrogance (on the other) doesn't fall very very flat.

Is being able to "pull the trigger now" really unique to Xavier? Or is it just Butler that's not in a position to? Butler having reservations or stipulations means they aren't ready? BTW, I'd expect nothing less of the X administration.

[xudash]

If "upside" means being able to get to the final four and play for a NC, back to back, then I'm wondering just a little bit whether all this conference envy (on one hand) and arrogance (on the other) doesn't fall very very flat.

Is being able to "pull the trigger now" really unique to Xavier? Or is it just Butler that's not in a position to? Butler having reservations or stipulations means they aren't ready? BTW, I'd expect nothing less of the X administration.

I think you need to have whatever you need to have fall flat fall flat. Hopefully, that will take care of whatever you're wondering about. If you think Butler is well positioned to get to the F4 frequently, that is your business. It takes a little luck for any program to get there, and they certainly had more than their fair share of that during their two trips there. Seriously, if you believe that they've established a position from which they can expect to get there now with any kind of frequency, based on the make-up of their program, I don't know what to offer you from here.

Is the trigger pulling thing unique to Xavier? I don't know, but I also don't care. I just believe Xavier is well positioned to go if the offer is made.

According to the Butler fan, Butler is ready to go now and they apparently would make the investments needed to compete at that higher level. I never said Butler wasn't ready to go now. But it is ridiculous to assume that Butler doesn't have a bigger jump to make, especially financially, to get there. Beyond its $2.6 million hoops budget, it supposedly is pursuing a $20 million renovation to its facility. Capacity will be dropped to around 8k if and when they finish the job. Assuming they can move their home attendance from 7.1k to 8k, they'll get a lift from that, but I don't know where it goes from there for them. That's 8k versus 10k in attendance for us, and that's us with suites and extensive seat licensing, which they also don't appear to have, or have to much of a degree.

Butler is a fine program that actually has to have one of the highest ROIs in the business. But that's the point: they've accomplished a helluva lot with relatively less. If you don't get that now, I can't help you from here.

[xubrew]

I can almost guarantee that if the Big East schools bring Xavier in, one of the stipulations will be that they pump more money into olympic sports, and that they add sports.

[Coogles]

http://www.ibj.com/hinkle-fieldhouse-slated-for-25-million-restoration/PARAMS/article/26307


Historic Hinkle Fieldhouse on the campus of Butler University is about to undergo its most extensive renovation since the building began hosting basketball games shortly before the Great Depression.

Built in 1928, the aging facility will be the beneficiary of a $25 million capital campaign to fund major building upgrades set to begin in the summer of 2012.

The fundraiser, launched in April 2010, has netted $4.8 million in commitments during the “silent phase” targeting the university’s traditionally larger donors. The campaign will be unveiled to the general public within the next six to nine months.

That the campaign started a year ago, during the men’s basketball team’s march to the NCAA Final Four in Indianapolis, was mere coincidence, said Mark Helmus, Butler’s vice president for university advancement.

And now, with the Bulldogs making an unlikely repeat trip to the Final Four, the university's efforts to raise the money are getting an additional boost.

“The idea of a capital campaign wasn’t aligned with the success of the team,” he said, “but we were certainly pleased with that.”

A storm in August 2009 that damaged part of the building’s roof and dislodged bricks on the exterior prompted a study to determine how Hinkle could be modernized without changing its outside appearance.

As a U.S. National Historic Landmark, the building’s original structure must stay intact. University officials, for instance, can’t even upgrade its single-pane windows with double-pane replacements, Helmus said.

But they can help meet additional demand for season tickets brought on by the Bulldogs' recent success.

More chair-type seats will be added to the basketball arena, replacing most of the benches in the lower bowl. Chairs were first installed at Hinkle in 1989, which cut seating capacity from 15,000 to 10,000. Capacity will drop further, to about 8,500, after the additional chairs are installed, Helmus said.

“Right now, people don’t want season tickets if they’re not in chairs,” he said.

A new scoreboard with video capability also is in the plans.

In addition, ticket booths in the midsection of the fieldhouse will be moved to the east and west ends to improve crowd flow, Helmus said. The midsection of the building will be converted to a lobby where spectators can gather.

New restrooms will be installed on the east side, where administrative offices currently are located, including the office of Athletic Director Barry Collier. He and various coaches will be temporarily relocated to a building behind Hinkle near the baseball field.

They’ll ultimately have new quarters, in a little-known area in the northwest corner of the building that once housed a natatorium. The pool was closed about 10 years ago, and the large space now is used for storage.

Plans call for removing the pool and converting the area into an athletic training facility, which should be triple the size of the current training space under the west bleachers. Remaining space in the old natatorium will become an academic area where athletes can study.

A second floor will be built to house Collier and coaching offices. Bricks covering original window spaces near the upper level will be removed to let more natural sunlight in, and to restore Hinkle closer to its original state, Helmus said.

The lower level under the pool, which is unfinished, will be converted into a locker room for the football team.

“We’re going to preserve a building that we just adore,” Collier said. “To a certain extent, the renovations will be done to keep Hinkle looking the way it does.”

Other upgrades include installing air-conditioning in the main arena, as well as the west gym, which is a practice facility. The Wildman Room, where Bulldog Club donors can congregate, will be expanded. And restrooms on the west side of the building also will be enlarged.

Seventeen of Butler’s sports teams are housed within Hinkle, but it’s the men’s basketball team that’s garnering the attention. Beating the Virginia Commonwealth University Rams on Saturday to make Monday night's final game or winning the national championship is likely to increase the flow of donations and help Butler finish the project sooner.

The school also was awarded $700,000 in federal preservation funds this year from the Save America's Treasures grant program to apply toward the project.

“We believe the fieldhouse is an icon,” Collier said, “and we want to make it available for folks for years and years to come.”

Should Duke replace Cameron Indoor because it only seats 9,300 and doesn't have suites? There's something to be said about having an iconic gym. The Cintas is great, but Hinkle has its own appeal. If Butler can't manage to support a high-level basketball program, it won't be because Hinkle is holding it back.

[xudash]

http://www.ibj.com/hinkle-fieldhouse-slated-for-25-million-restoration/PARAMS/article/26307



Should Duke replace Cameron Indoor because it only seats 9,300 and doesn't have suites? There's something to be said about having an iconic gym. The Cintas is great, but Hinkle has its own appeal. If Butler can't manage to support a high-level basketball program, it won't be because Hinkle is holding it back.

Should Duke replace Cameron Indoor because it only seats 9,300 and doesn't have suites?

No. But Duke is Duke, which, among other things, means it gets a big chunk of money from its ACC league affiliation.

There's something to be said about having an iconic gym.

I agree. What Butler will do with Hinkle sounds like a very nice renovation.

The Cintas is great, but Hinkle has its own appeal.

I agree again that Hinkle has its own appeal.

If Butler can't manage to support a high-level basketball program, it won't be because Hinkle is holding it back.

I never noted that Butler couldn't support such a program or that Hinkle would hold it back, I was primarily comparing the revenue generating abilities of Xavier versus Butler with respect to their facilities, and otherwise noted that Butler will have a bigger adjustment to make in joining a league like the BE for all sports (ex-football).

Xavier's biggest adjustment in doing that will have to do with adding a certain number of sports.