Conference carousel to start spinning again?

[muskienick]

Big East Football:
Cincinnati
Connecticut --- To the ACC (probably)
Louisville
Pittsburgh --- To the ACC
Rutgers --- To the ACC (probably)
South Florida
Syracuse --- To the ACC
Texas Christian --- Opt out of Big East (probably)
West Virginia --- To the SEC (probably)

Assuming all the "probablies" occur, the Big East is left with only three Football Members.

Big 12 Football
Baylor
Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State
Missouri --- Attractive to Big 10 and SEC
Oklahoma --- Attractive to PAC 12 and Big 10
Oklahoma State --- Will probably follow OU if they leave
Texas --- Attractive to PAC 12 and Big 10
Texas A&M --- To the SEC
Texas Tech --- Will probably follow Texas if they leave

If all the possible scenarios play out (above) in one way or the other, it would certainly seem the Big 12 leftovers would hold a solid upper hand over the Big East Football Schools (especially since TCU would love to be a member of a re-formed Big 12). Kansas and Kansas State would be stone stupid to accept membership to the Big East in its current "Free Fall" mode because, by doing so, they would forfeit their geographical and numerical advantage. The four remaining B-12 schools could invite TCU and the three remaining B-East schools to form a pretty decent 8-member nucleus for a conference. Were they to glom onto Boise State and one or three other highly respected programs from the west (Air Force Academy, Colorado State, and BYU come to mind), they could challenge the ACC for 4th place among the 5 remaining BCS Conferences in annual football strength.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then, what do the remaining Big East members do who don't participate in the current B-East Football Conference?

Notre Dame would have little more incentive to give up its independence in Football than it did the past when it supposedly rebuffed overtures from the Big 10 and ACC. After all, it hasn't just recently become rather average on the turf surface of College Football. So living the life of luxurious TV contracts seems to be the result of the reality of the Notre Dame name and subway fan system throughout the nation. Ergo, one could surmise that ND stays put with the likes of Villanova, Marquette, DePaul, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Providence, and St. John's.

Those eight schools then form a handsome nucleus for a rather lucrative TV contract, especially if they absorb three of the better A-10 programs and Butler and reorganize into a 12-member, 2-division Basketball-driven Big East Conference that could look something like this:
EAST: Georgetown, Providence, Richmond, Saint John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova
WEST: Butler, DePaul, Marquette, Notre Dame, St. Louis, and Xavier.

I see UD's best chance to be a part of this coming about is if Notre Dame actually does decide to join the Big 10, the only really logical choice it has. The newly formed Big East would certainly pick XU, ND, Butler, and SLU before UD because of ND's national stature and media appeal and the much larger metro areas that the other three would have over Dayton.

OK! I lied in my reply to DC about waiting to come up with another scenario about the Muskies' potential new Conference setting. It's not my fault. There are just too many interesting news releases, both confirmed and "leaked," that are coming out that a guy like me can't pass up such an opportunity. My only regret is that I have done so damn many of these that even if one of them does actually happen, I won't be able to claim "Swami Status."

[SkyWalker]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/2011/09/19/2011-09-19_big_east_schools_eye_split.html?r=sports


"The athletic directors of St. John's, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence, DePaul, Marquette and Notre Dame have scheduled a teleconference Monday to discuss the league's ever-changing status. The move follows the defections of Pittsburgh and Syracuse to the ACC, with the prospect of more losses if the SEC targets West Virginia, the ACC absorbs Connecticut and perhaps Rutgers, and TCU reconsiders its decision to join this BCS conference in 2012.

The instability has created the growing possibility that the basketball-only schools could seek a split from the football-playing schools in this massive 17-team league and put the wheels in motion to form their own Catholic league, hoping they have enough clout to negotiate a decent TV deal with ESPN."
Not sure who this Dick Weiss is but this is the first if seen of this meeting today.

I think it makes a lot of sense for the basketball only schools of the Big East to set their own direction independent of the football schools. Without Syracuse, Pitt and possibly UConn, Big East basketball loses some of its luster.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Solid finds MCXU. Reps.

There are more than enough basketball only schools to form a great league. Hopefully this comes into fruition

[dc_x]

Vuillanova and Georgetown aren't just going to drop off the map. Maybe Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall and St. Johns (DePaul would have to be on the map to drop off), but not Villanova and Georgetown. So I wouldn't worry about that.

They won't fall off the map, but an all-Catholic league without ND won't generate the TV revenue of the current Big East. Over time all those schools will have the same problem as X when it comes to paying their coaches.

[MCXU]

EAST: Georgetown, Providence, Richmond, Saint John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova
WEST: Butler, DePaul, Marquette, Notre Dame, St. Louis, and Xavier.

This is the best & most realistic option I think I have seen.

If this was the final outcome I would be thrilled

The 7 (ND 8) Big East schools will stick together and look to add basketball only markets that give them a footprint in decent sized TV markets.

Adding the St. Louis, Cincy, Indianapolis and Richmond markets is solid. Throwing in the Dayton market should ND leave, which they likely will after 2 or 3 years.

[X-band '01]

Exactly DC - we also have to keep in mind that the ACC and Big East are going to have their TV contracts for sports like basketball get a 2nd look from the Mickey Mouse networks. I'm prepared to bet that the ACC is going to eat up a lion's share of TV games should they add the likes of UConn and Rutgers to their stable along with Pitt and Syracuse.

One big irony that would arise should UConn accept an ACC bid would be that UConn is in danger of becoming ineligible for the NCAA Tournament because of a low APR score. Still, I'd wonder what their academic profile is overall.

[Emp]

If ND were involved for just 2 or 3 years before heading off it would help.

How so? Any TV contract would have a renegotiation clause if the new league could not deliver ND. In addition, ND would not settle for a mere equal piece of a TV pie. ND is a 500 lb gorilla that no one will be able to "manage."

Any team that is motivated to join a league because ND is in it will be just as motivated to leave if ND leaves. Then what?

I do NOT want Xavier to be in a league with ND. Ever. We cannot afford to compete with ND for recruits. Whatever you think of ND, a league with ND is not a good match for X.

[bleedXblue]

Temple will likely end up in the same league with UC. Decent football and basketball.

I like all of the above except I think it will end up being a 14 team league.

Richmond and dDyton are good programs with good fan support.....downside is that they are in small markets.

[powerofX]

When BEast basketball schools split, they could go two ways...go all catholic or maximize brand/footprint.

If they go All-Catholic...thereby aligning with a unified voice for the conference, I think they will add X, UD, SLU, and St. Joe. (I know this duplicates philly and the hawks play in a band box, but keeps travel down for non-hoops and is still a "Name" school).

You could add butler in place of SLU (distance) or SJU (no repeat in Philly) if they are open to a non-catholic option. I think richmond could be an option for non-catholic as well. Another non-catholic option could be Boston U if they need something in the NE beyond Providence. They at least have the commitment to facilities even though there is limited recent hoops success.

[XUglow]

West Virginia to the SEC will mean that Kennedy and Huggins will likely get together once a year in either MS or WV. Get ready for more international puking incidents. This will not go well.

[LA Muskie]

When BEast basketball schools split, they could go two ways...go all catholic or maximize brand/footprint.

If they go All-Catholic...thereby aligning with a unified voice for the conference, I think they will add X, UD, SLU, and St. Joe. (I know this duplicates philly and the hawks play in a band box, but keeps travel down for non-hoops and is still a "Name" school).

You could add butler in place of SLU (distance) or SJU (no repeat in Philly) if they are open to a non-catholic option. I think richmond could be an option for non-catholic as well. Another non-catholic option could be Boston U if they need something in the NE beyond Providence. They at least have the commitment to facilities even though there is limited recent hoops success.

If it happens they will almost certainly go the all-Catholic route.

[Founding Father]

EAST: Georgetown, Providence, Richmond, Saint John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova
WEST: Butler, DePaul, Marquette, Notre Dame, St. Louis, and Xavier.



I want XU to be in a conference with Georgetown, ND, St. John's and Villanova. It looks like it may now happen with Pitt and Syracuse going to the ACC but it will happen with XU having to be in a league with Seton Hall, Providence and DePaul. I guess having to play in a conference with those 3 is better than any league that has Fordham, LaSalle and St. B's.

If ND sticks with the basketball only schools and those 8 decide to form a new league or just take the Big East name from the remaining 3 football schools, I hope they are very selective with their invitations. A 9 team league is not too shabby. A 10 team league would be more to my likining than a two division 12 team league. The "West" above is the MCC.

I hope the basketball schools invite XU to join them but I don't want Butler or St. Louis.

This new Big East does not have to be more than 9 or 10 teams. If they decide down the road they want or need more teams, they can always expand again. As we have seen in the A10 it is easy to add teams but not so easy to get rid of them.

I hope St. Louis goes to the MVC. I hope Charlotte goes to CUSA. The A10 could lose XU, Richmond to the new Big East and St. Louis and Charlotte to the MVC and CUSA and now be 10 teams.

If the new Big East wants to add teams past 9 or 10, they know where to look.

P.S. Was XU insistant upon UD coming with them to the A10 when they joined the A10? If so, I hope they are not insistant on bringing UD along with them this time as well.

[Masterofreality]

You don't think CBS could get out of that contract if the "super-conferences" left the NCAA? I think they could. They could argue that the NCAA isn't the same NCAA that signed the 11 billion contract with them. Legal-wise, I have no idea what they would have to do in court to get out of the contract. But I suspect it would be possible.

The NCAA has little control over college football. They do, however, have total control over college basketball and there are a lot more total schools (in D2 and D3, besides D1 basketball only schools) that vote in the NCAA than just the "64" big football schools.

There will be no "opt out" because the NCAA would never allow CBS to do it even if it tried. The contract is with the NCAA. No way the big schools would risk the negativity that would ensue from trying to split away.

Basketball is safe.

[Masterofreality]

Can't imagine the ACC will be interested in Rutgers. What's the point of adding Rutgers for them if they already have Syracuse, Pitt and UConn?

The New York TV market for a possible "ACC Network".

All about TV sets and homes.

[SixFig]

A friend mentioned the hilarious combination of the new "Big East" with the West Coast Conference, creating a National Christian Conference

[Masterofreality]

WVU to the SEC is quite amusing. Everything that is categorically SEC I don't really see matching with West Virginia. It's a longer trip for an RV, the girls don't wear dresses to the games, and it is oftentimes below sixty degrees. I live in the south, and you just don't see many people showing up to the games in coal mining hats.

I think this will result in a dual case of culture shock.

Uh, ever hear of my home state of Kentucky?

I believe that state is part of the SEC.

[Masterofreality]

I live in Alabama, where people cheerfully deny that Kentucky and Vanderbilt are members of the conference...

Vandy beat Mississippi last weekend. I'd say they are an SEC member.

[GoMuskies]

The New York TV market for a possible "ACC Network".

All about TV sets and homes.

This is like claiming Temple brings the Philadelphia market (which the Big East was dumb enough to believe at one point...maybe the ACC is just as dumb.

[Masterofreality]

This is like claiming Temple brings the Philadelphia market (which the Big East was dumb enough to believe at one point...maybe the ACC is just as dumb.

Well, there was actually talk in Big 10 country about adding Rutgers- because it brings the New York TV market to the Big 10 network.

There just aren't any "big time" football colleges around New York City. Rutgers, while flawed, is the best of the bad.

[GoMuskies]

Again, I'm not saying some conference isn't going to be dumb enough to believe Rutgers brings the NYC TV market. It's just that it doesn't.

[Masterofreality]

Meanwhile, all the Big Greased honks in Bristol, Connecticut- right next door to UCon- are having seizures that their overblown, overhyped baby is going away. At least they're not locked into a big money long term TV contract.

Real smart, Big Least. Turning down a big money deal last year that would have locked ESPN in. Now your league is breaking apart.

Meanwhile, SucKS has no AD and no place to go. Ah, they'll probably wind up in some hybrid with K-State, Kansas, Baylor, Iowa State TCU, S Fla and Louisville. That won't be a Big East brand, though. That is all midwest.

Bye, bye Big East football. You won't be missed- by anyone.

[bleedXblue]

UC looks to be one of the Big East members with A LOT to lose.


They're going to end up in an average conference for both football and basketball.


Today is a great day. I'm soooo tired of hearing about the Big E.

[THRILLHOUSE]

UC looks to be one of the Big East members with A LOT to lose.


They're going to end up in an average conference for both football and basketball.


Today is a great day. I'm soooo tired of hearing about the Big E.

If UC is in a conference with UofL, Kansas, KState, Mizzou, Baylor, Temple and Memphis it would be a decent bball conference. Not as good as the old big east, but not a horrible place to be (basketball wise anyway). UC doesnt have an AD at the worst possible time though.

[danaandvictory]

I really doubt Kansas and Missouri end up in a reconstituted Big 12/Big East football hybrid. Those schools scream B1G #13 and #14 to me.

[Giacomazzi]

The Big East turned down a huge television deal with ESPN at the pleading of Pittsburgh, who was noticing the volatility of the conference and wanted to either get out, or wait it out before securing a new deal. Now their exit has created the next wave of realignment.

West Virginia to the SEC should be announced in the next day or so, the deal is almost completed.

Look for Louisville to follow suite to the SEC, along with Missouri.

Connecticut and Rutgers are the next cog in the ACC wheel, which would leave the Big East with 3 football playing members.

TCU, South Florida, and UC will be joining the Big 12 thereafter, while the Big East (now rebranded for basketball) will look to be adding Xavier among others. This is very, very close to happening and should be done by October.

[waggy]

How so? Any TV contract would have a renegotiation clause if the new league could not deliver ND. In addition, ND would not settle for a mere equal piece of a TV pie. ND is a 500 lb gorilla that no one will be able to "manage."

Any team that is motivated to join a league because ND is in it will be just as motivated to leave if ND leaves. Then what?

I do NOT want Xavier to be in a league with ND. Ever. We cannot afford to compete with ND for recruits. Whatever you think of ND, a league with ND is not a good match for X.

Hypothetical for you: ND and the remaining BE bball schools decide to expand by taking 3 or 4 A10 schools, and you'd rather stay in the A10?

[THRILLHOUSE]

I really doubt Kansas and Missouri end up in a reconstituted Big 12/Big East football hybrid. Those schools scream B1G #13 and #14 to me.

Mizzou was the one I was hesitant about adding to that group, because I agree theres a good chance they go B1G. Not quite as sure about Kansas though. Was really just putting a best case scenario for UC. Definitely a lot to be concerned about if you are a uc fan, and luckily we are not!

[THRILLHOUSE]

Look for Louisville to follow suite to the SEC.



Would UK allow this? (and conversely could they even stop it if they wanted to?)

[waggy]

I'm kind of surprised B1G isn't interested in West Virginia. Maybe academically and market size are below par, but they've always had good bball and football programs. I'd consider them "quality" from that perspective. I think they'd be an interesting addition to the B10.

[Giacomazzi]

Would UK allow this? (and conversely could they even stop it if they wanted to?)

Just talked to an SEC guy and he doesn't think Louisville join. I seem to think they would be better suited in SEC than in Big 12, but I'm not real privy on their situation right now.

I don't know that UK could stop it, but what I wonder is if they would like it?

[xudash]

I'm kind of surprised B1G isn't interested in West Virginia. Maybe academically and market size are below par, but they've always had good bball and football programs. I'd consider them "quality" from that perspective. I think they'd be an interesting addition to the B10.

You shouldn't be surprised at all. The B1G will move first on the criterion of AAU membership or not. WVU doesn't even know how to spell AAU.

What is interesting to me, which I found out this morning, is that Syracuse apparently had lost its AAU membership recently. Don't know how or why, but that was stated on another messageboard. Obviously, they knew the B1G was out for them, but they also knew they were still sufficiently academically appealing for the ACC and made that move accordingly.

[danaandvictory]

You shouldn't be surprised at all. The B1G will move first on the criterion of AAU membership or not. WVU doesn't even know how to spell AAU.

Nebraska lost their certification and was still invited, so I don't know if it's still a deal-breaker. EDIT: Apparently they lost certification after being invited, so that does make some sense.

I do think that WVU -- for whatever reason -- doesn't feel like a cultural fit with the rest of the league. Kansas and Missouri seem to check those boxes. (Of course, so did Pitt.)

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Taken from a Big East Message board
http://www.bigeastboards.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=347315&sid=ebc0c8c751fb00db8ec1a31f5bdae01e


Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 4530


PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:47 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Re-posted from a 2010 discussion thread, somewhat changed by the actual events:

The following policies also apply when a conference’s membership changes or realignment occurs:
a. If an institution leaves a conference and realigns with another and its original conference remains in operation, the units it earned remain with the conference that it left.
b. If an institution leaves a conference to become an independent, the units that institution earned are retained by the conference that it left.
c. If an independent institution joins a conference, it retains the unit(s) it earned as an independent prior to the date it elected to join the conference; any units the institution earns subsequent to that date accrue to the conference.
d. If a conference disbands, each institution retains the units it earned in the basketball fund.
e. If an institution leaves a conference and the conference falls below the six-member requirement, the units remain with the conference for a one-year period; however, if the conference then later disbands, those units return to the basketball fund.
f. If fifty (50) percent or more of the member institutions in a given conference leave the conference simultaneously and the remaining conference membership falls below six member institutions, the conference shall be considered disbanded and each member institution shall retain the units it earned in the basketball fund as if the conference had in fact disbanded (for the purposes of the basketball fund distribution).
*****
If Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, and Notre Dame were to leave the BE, then units earned from the previous 6 years in the NCAA tourney would stay with the Big East. The 16-team Big East Conference presently has 104 units racked up currently, worth $23.1 million. That works out to about $1.4 million per team.[/b]

[pizza delivery]

The few scenarios for XU are upgrades over the current A10, however I dont know how much of a net positive it will be in 5-10 years. To me, we're facing 4 big easts instead of just one. 4x16 creates some enormous clout in cbb.

ACC
Duke
UNC
Syracuse
Uconn
FSU
Maryland
VT
GT
Wake
Clemson
BC
Virginia
Miami
NCst

Big 16
OSU
Mich
Mich St
Kansas
Mizzou
Purdue
Indiana
Iowa
Northwestern
Nebraska
Wisky
Minny
Penn St
Illinois
Other
Other

Pac 16
UCLA
AZ
AZ St
Ore
Ore St
Wash
Wash St.
Colorado
Texas
Okla
Okla St.
Stanford
Cal
USC
Other
Other

SEC
UK
Fla
Ala
Ark
T Tech
Vandy
Georgia
Auburn
LSU
Miss St
SC
Tennessee
WVU
Other
Other
Other

If all that's left is Gtown and Marquette, with possible departures of Temple, Umass and Charlotte, I really think it will still be about XU vs the world. Those other 4 conferences are going to get all the run in CBB conversation with the, let's not forget about the Catholics!, conversation the way it will be. Purely in terms of basketball excitement and level of play, sure, it will be a bonus, but in general it won't change the stature of XU basketball. Depending on how recruiting continues to go in this fictional league (it's going well for XU now as is), it could be a drag at some point. XU's reputation will always be determined on the court, so while I'd love to get rid of Fordham or some such team to improve the A10, with the way things are shaking out, the "upgrade" in affiliation may be minimized by the impact and sensation that this 4x16 structure will create. That said, I am hoping the Big 12 can scrap together that 5th conference to dilute the conglomeration that we're bounding for.

[bobbiemcgee]

"Dominoes falling"

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/130094823.html?cmpid=15585797#ixzz1YQ9fXaQJ

[GoMuskies]

You know, it's NOT outside the realm of possibility that whatever league Xavier ends up in has a "western edge" that leads to Wichita State being a part of it (along with SLU and Creighton, maybe even UNI). There's at least one person on this messageboard who would wholeheartedly endorse the notion of Xavier visiting Charles Koch Arena in beautiful Wichita, KS every year or every other year.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Nova one of the 10 teams that applied to the ACC. Can't imagine they would get in...

http://www.zagsblog.com/2011/09/19/report-villanova-applied-to-acc/

[MCXU]

Nova one of the 10 teams that applied to the ACC. Can't imagine they would get in...

http://www.zagsblog.com/2011/09/19/report-villanova-applied-to-acc/

I thought this sounded crazy too, but what if the ACC is holding a spot for ND for everything non football. They could have 16 basketball and 14 football. Just a thought. This would be the only way they would consider Villanova.

[xudash]

I thought this sounded crazy too, but what if the ACC is holding a spot for ND for everything non football. They could have 16 basketball and 14 football. Just a thought. This would be the only way they would consider Villanova.

They're solving for football. Period. End of story. They aren't going to pollywanker-up some convoluted hybrid, which has been the BE's fundamental problem all along.

And Nova being one of ten schools that applied should give you some idea of what Nova's chances are of landing in the ACC.

p.s. I have no idea what it means to pollywanker-up something.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

p.s. I have no idea what it means to pollywanker-up something.

Pollywanker brought me varying results in google:

1) A deviantart website with artist members "illcutyoucunt" artwork entitled 'pollywanker'
http://illcutyoucunt.deviantart.com/art/Pollywanker-207797696

2) A video game profile member on a website called "Steam" seen here
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197971082088

Images brought up actress Polly Walker
http://static.tvfanatic.com/images/gallery/polly-walker-picture.jpg

[bobbiemcgee]

By all accounts, X seems to be in a great position and we sure have the right guy in Bobo to make good things happen. Set up the cots in the AD's office.

[paulxu]

The New York Times guy who broke the Syracuse/Pitt story was interviewed on ESPN radio this afternoon.
He had an interesting thought about Big East football. Had to do with currently holding a place in the BCS slot...not quite sure how that is earned.
Anyhow, his point was that this was a very, very valuable thing, and that they would work really hard to keep it...football wise. Something about needing 6 teams in a conference for at least 5 years or something.

Not sure how that is possible if UConn and Rutgers bail.

[XUglow]

Images brought up actress Polly Walker
http://static.tvfanatic.com/images/gallery/polly-walker-picture.jpg

Atia of the Julii

[muskiefan82]

The New York Times guy who broke the Syracuse/Pitt story was interviewed on ESPN radio this afternoon.
He had an interesting thought about Big East football. Had to do with currently holding a place in the BCS slot...not quite sure how that is earned.
Anyhow, his point was that this was a very, very valuable thing, and that they would work really hard to keep it...football wise. Something about needing 6 teams in a conference for at least 5 years or something.

Not sure how that is possible if UConn and Rutgers bail.

Is it that or 6 teams in a BCS conference for 5 years? If they can steal some of the Big 12 teams, then they could be okay.

[waggy]

He was not happy that ACC commissioner John Swofford, shortly after snagging Syracuse and Pittsburgh, openly discussed moving his league's basketball tournament to Madison Square Garden, where the Big East Tournament has been a staple for 27 years.

"John Swofford and (Boston College AD) Gene DeFilippo, I don't think they intended it, but to mention they want to go to the Garden on the day that Dave Gavitt died to me was so disrespectful," he said. "I don't think either one meant it that way, but it sure came across that way.

"If the ACC wants to come to New York we'll see how it works. We'll see if they're smart enough to handle it correctly and see if it is embraced. But you do know the Big East has a rules and a contract (with the Garden) through 2016."

http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2011/09/former_big_east_commissioner_m.html

[Giacomazzi]

Not sure how that is possible if UConn and Rutgers bail.

Once West Virginia is admitted into the SEC this week, UConn and Rutgers aren't going to want to wait and find out on if it even would be possible.

[pizza delivery]

Tranny from the BE is such a hypocrite, no one benefited more from the BE "Super Conference" in basketball than he did. I'm enjoying see him get trounced by others doing the same thing for themselves, but at his expense. Meanwhile, he can't cry any harder about it.

[LA Muskie]

The NCAA has little control over college football. They do, however, have total control over college basketball and there are a lot more total schools (in D2 and D3, besides D1 basketball only schools) that vote in the NCAA than just the "64" big football schools.

There will be no "opt out" because the NCAA would never allow CBS to do it even if it tried. The contract is with the NCAA. No way the big schools would risk the negativity that would ensue from trying to split away.

Basketball is safe.

I don't see a coup on the horizon. But if CBS doesn't have an "out" in its contract for such a possibility, I would be shocked. SHOCKED I say!

[SixFig]

A truly sad weekend for the Big East (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/6988839/greed-hypocrisy-spell-end-big-east-know-college-basketball)

Funny how only now ESPN is sooooo sad to see their investment fall apart

[GoMuskies]

A truly sad weekend for the Big East


False. Louisville beat Kentucky. That is never part of a sad weekend.

[BBC 08]

False. Louisville beat Kentucky. That is never part of a sad weekend.

Man is holding me down so I can't rep this. But yes, any time Louisville football beats Kentucky it is a great weekend.

[Masterofreality]

The New York Times guy who broke the Syracuse/Pitt story was interviewed on ESPN radio this afternoon.
He had an interesting thought about Big East football. Had to do with currently holding a place in the BCS slot...not quite sure how that is earned.
Anyhow, his point was that this was a very, very valuable thing, and that they would work really hard to keep it...football wise. Something about needing 6 teams in a conference for at least 5 years or something.

Not sure how that is possible if UConn and Rutgers bail.


Is it that or 6 teams in a BCS conference for 5 years? If they can steal some of the Big 12 teams, then they could be okay.

Uh, the Big 12 has a BCS spot too. The only schools left after Rutgers, UCon and WVA bail will be "west" in Louisville and, in mediocre fashion- Cincinnati- along with South Florida. I'd say they'd be more inclined to go with a "Big 12" brand-I know TCU would.

Oh, they could always go ahead and just add Central Florida and East Carolina and Memphis. That is sure an attractive football league. :rolleyes:

[chico]

Uh, the Big 12 has a BCS spot too. The only schools left after Rutgers, UCon and WVA bail will be "west" in Louisville and, in mediocre fashion- Cincinnati- along with South Florida. I'd say they'd be more inclined to go with a "Big 12" brand-I know TCU would.

Oh, they could always go ahead and just add Central Florida and East Carolina and Memphis. That is sure an attractive football league. :rolleyes:

That's just C-USA in sheep's clothing, but UC (and UL) should probably get used to the fact that they are likely heading back home again.

If they keep the Big East name it's kind of like the drummer and bass player for Pink Floyd going on tour as Pink Floyd.

[GoMuskies]

If the Big East leftovers (USF, Louisville, UC) end up with the Big XII leftovers (Kansas, K-State, Iowa State, Baylor....assume Mizzou finds another home), and they add TCU and Boise State, that will definitely be a BCS league. It's a LOT better league than the current Big East.

[Muskie1000]

so seriously... not trying to make a joke. Over on UD Pride and they are convinced that wherever Xavier goes, they go (although why you want your legacy to be decided because of another program is beyond me). I can not for the life of me figure out what Dayton has to offer that another conference would want. (Just like I still can't fathom why any program would want Gregory either). Please enlighten me.

[muethibp]

All this BCS talk assumes that the BCS exists. What is far more likely is that the surviving 4 big conferences make their own deal where, for example, they send their conference champions to a 4 team tournament (1 game, for example, on New Years Day, 1 game on January 10) that the networks would cream their pants to bid on. And then they don't have to whack the money up in so many directions.

The real fear, as it relates to our Musketeers is if those 4 conferences decided they could do the same in basketball and run the money through them instead of the NCAA, obliterating the NCAA tournament in the process and locking the Muskies out. It wouldn't be popular, but it could very well be lucrative enough that the networks at least force the discussion.

[LA Muskie]

A truly sad weekend for the Big East (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/6988839/greed-hypocrisy-spell-end-big-east-know-college-basketball)

Funny how only now ESPN is sooooo sad to see their investment fall apart
I'm sad about it. But then again I grew up in Big East country. The Syracuse v Georgetown games were what college basketball was all about for me until I was 18...

[SixFig]

Gary Parrish's plan to save the big east (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/15606543/pillaged-big-east-can-survive-if-it-follows-this-plan)

could work...wouldn't really be "east" anymore, although it would be BIG

[LA Muskie]

All this BCS talk assumes that the BCS exists. What is far more likely is that the surviving 4 big conferences make their own deal where, for example, they send their conference champions to a 4 team tournament (1 game, for example, on New Years Day, 1 game on January 10) that the networks would cream their pants to bid on. And then they don't have to whack the money up in so many directions.

The real fear, as it relates to our Musketeers is if those 4 conferences decided they could do the same in basketball and run the money through them instead of the NCAA, obliterating the NCAA tournament in the process and locking the Muskies out. It wouldn't be popular, but it could very well be lucrative enough that the networks at least force the discussion.
While this may be what they *want* to do, I don't see it happening. Congress would be threatening antitrust investigations quicker than you can blow a whistle.

[GoMuskies]

Gary Parrish's plan to save the big east (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/15606543/pillaged-big-east-can-survive-if-it-follows-this-plan)

could work...wouldn't really be "east" anymore, although it would be BIG

Skip Memphis and add Boise, and his suggestion makes more sense. This is all about football afterall.

[Aughnanure]

so seriously... not trying to make a joke. Over on UD Pride and they are convinced that wherever Xavier goes, they go (although why you want your legacy to be decided because of another program is beyond me). I can not for the life of me figure out what Dayton has to offer that another conference would want. (Just like I still can't fathom why any program would want Gregory either). Please enlighten me.

Marquette fan here. While the major problem with Dayton is that the conference would be basically doubling-up on a market, the fact that Dayton actually sells its seats and program with a pretty rabid fanbase makes it semi-attractive, because there is a clear desire for the product from alumni and fans. Those programs are going to be few and far between for any future bball-only conference. Duquesne? No. Detroit? No. Possibly St. Joe's/Temple but Nova will block them.

Dayton is not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, but I'd rather pick teams with fanbases that care then simply grab a team to reach a new market. Whatever league this will be it will NEED its fans to care deeply and passionately or it will lose relevance.

[Aughnanure]

Skip Memphis and add Boise, and his suggestion makes more sense. This is all about football afterall.

Memphis is brand name, whatever league this will be will need as many of those as possible. Boise makes some sense, but remove another team besides Memphis to get them in. It wasn't too long ago they were a juco.

Also, I highly doubt Kansas, West Virginia and Louisville will be left out. B1G and SEC will have to get to 16 somehow.

[BMoreX]

Gary Parrish's plan to save the big east (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/15606543/pillaged-big-east-can-survive-if-it-follows-this-plan)

could work...wouldn't really be "east" anymore, although it would be BIG

Wouldn't the problem with this scenario be trying to convince the basketball-only schools to vote to include the Big XII remnants? The basketball schools now have the majority in any vote, and I'm not sure if they'd want to go back to a hybrid conference with 20 hoops teams.

[waggy]

Wouldn't the problem with this scenario be trying to convince the basketball-only schools to vote to include the Big XII remnants? The basketball schools now have the majority in any vote, and I'm not sure if they'd want to go back to a hybrid conference with 20 hoops teams.

You have to view the alternative from their perspective. Right or wrong.

[GoMuskies]

Memphis is brand name, whatever league this will be will need as many of those as possible. Boise makes some sense, but remove another team besides Memphis to get them in. It wasn't too long ago they were a juco.

Also, I highly doubt Kansas, West Virginia and Louisville will be left out. B1G and SEC will have to get to 16 somehow.

But it's all about football, and Boise is about as brand name as you get in football right now. And Memphis is one of the worst 5 programs in I-A.

[Aughnanure]

But it's all about football, and Boise is about as brand name as you get in football right now. And Memphis is one of the worst 5 programs in I-A.

Emphasis on "right now." I think you are forming a conference based on the wrong things. This type of idea is driving some dumb college sports opinions (no offense) - the "If we are good now we will be good in perpetuity" and "if you are bad now you will be bad in perpetuity." Boise is one bad hire away from irrelevance, Memphis has constistently been a winner and has a fanbase that will not go away after a few bad seasons. Boise St is okay, but they should be after Nevada, UNLV, BYU & even Gonzaga.

[GoMuskies]

No, Memphis was awful when Calipari arrived, has ALWAYS been awful in football, and could quickly suck in basketball again, too, with "one bad hire".

Boise has been rock solid in football for 15 years.

[Aughnanure]

No, Memphis was awful when Calipari arrived, has ALWAYS been awful in football, and could quickly suck in basketball again, too, with "one bad hire".

Boise has been rock solid in football for 15 years.

Umm no. If it was all about Football, why are Cuse, Pitt, UConn and Rutgers going to the ACC? And no, Memphis will not suck at basketball anytime soon. This is the same crap people try to throw at Duke, saying Duke was never good before Coach K. Memphis has history, moreso than Boise St. Congrats on winning the Big West in the 90-s, I guess.

Memphis
23 NCAA Tourney appearances
11 Sweet Sixteens
6 Elite Eights
3 Final Fours
2 Runner Ups

[paulxu]

so seriously... not trying to make a joke. Over on UD Pride and they are convinced that wherever Xavier goes, they go (although why you want your legacy to be decided because of another program is beyond me). I can not for the life of me figure out what Dayton has to offer that another conference would want. (Just like I still can't fathom why any program would want Gregory either). Please enlighten me.

I don't think there is any enlightenment for this.
Somehow everyone assumes Dayton would be part of an expanded BE basketball only conference. Maybe there is some deal at the 2 president's level or something that I have no idea about.
To make the strongest conference by adding teams to existing BE bball schools, you wouldn't add Dayton. You'd add X, Butler, Creighton, St. Joe's, Richmond, etc. They all have stronger teams, especially in the last 10 years.
Since our conference expanded to 14, Dayton has only had ONE season with a better than .500 conference record.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

@BearcatLair: Sources tell BearcatLair.com that the SEC has turned down #WVU application for admittance.

[GoMuskies]

Umm no. If it was all about Football, why are Cuse, Pitt, UConn and Rutgers going to the ACC? And no, Memphis will not suck at basketball anytime soon. This is the same crap people try to throw at Duke, saying Duke was never good before Coach K. Memphis has history, moreso than Boise St. Congrats on winning the Big West in the 90-s, I guess.

Memphis
23 NCAA Tourney appearances
11 Sweet Sixteens
6 Elite Eights
3 Final Fours
2 Runner Ups

Sounds like Dayton (ancient history). Yes, Memphis sucked when Calipari arrived. Google Tic Price. And maybe Larry Finch, too, just for fun.

I may have calculated wrong, but I have Boise at 146-32 in 14+ years dating back to Houston Nutt's first season as HC there. He was 5-6 that year, so they're 141-26 since.

Seems like pretty good staying power to me.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

By the way, Oklahoma and Texas presidents were given authority to make "conference decisions" today.

The Oklahomas to the Pac 12 should happen relatively soon. Texas still needs to work out some LHN kinks if they want to join

[Nocalmuskie]

Not good, if true ...

@DanWolken Just hearing it's not their preference RT @Xhoopsmaven:@DanWolken what's your evidence Nova and G'Town are not interested in a Cath league?

[GoMuskies]

Not good, if true ...

@DanWolken Just hearing it's not their preference RT @Xhoopsmaven:@DanWolken what's your evidence Nova and G'Town are not interested in a Cath league?

Of course it's not their preference. They're unlikely to have many better options.

[LA Muskie]

Not good, if true ...

@DanWolken Just hearing it's not their preference RT @Xhoopsmaven:@DanWolken what's your evidence Nova and G'Town are not interested in a Cath league?

Well of course it's not their preference. Preferences were thrown out the window last weekend when SU and Pitt bolted. A&M was the first wave. SU and Pitt created the flood. (Although the real damage hits when TX, OK and their kid brothers announce...)

It's every man, woman and child for itself.

[muskienick]

EAST: Georgetown, Providence, Richmond, Saint John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova
WEST: Butler, DePaul, Marquette, Notre Dame, St. Louis, and Xavier.

This is the best & most realistic option I think I have seen.

If this was the final outcome I would be thrilled

The 7 (ND 8) Big East schools will stick together and look to add basketball only markets that give them a footprint in decent sized TV markets.

Adding the St. Louis, Cincy, Indianapolis and Richmond markets is solid. Throwing in the Dayton market should ND leave, which they likely will after 2 or 3 years.

And there is one non-Catholic "interloper" in each division of that proposed Big East Conference. Those two additions not only eliminate the hated "Papist Conference" critiques but also they add two excellent programs to the mix.

[DC Muskie]

How appealing of league is it from a tv perspective if the following schools form a basketball centric conference:

St. John's
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
Seton Hall
DePaul
Marquette
Xavier
Dayton

As much as I like this league, I don't think there will ever be a nine school conference. And not having Notre Dame, makes it even less appealing.

I think we will see ND join the ACC or the Big Ten. The Big East will be no more especially if UConn and Rutgers join the ACC.

But if we join a conference and it must be 14 teams, I'm afraid it won't garner great tv package.

This all catholic league looks good on paper, but will it get the tv viewers?

Then again, as people suggested, what other options for GTown and Nova are out there?

[GoMuskies]

How appealing of league is it from a tv perspective if the following schools form a basketball centric conference:

St. John's
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
Seton Hall
DePaul
Marquette
Xavier
Dayton


A lot more appealing than the following:

Xavier
Dayton
Charlotte
SLU
Richmond
Duquesne
LaSalle
Temple
St. Joe's
Fordham
GW
URI
St. Bonaventure
UMass

[DC Muskie]

Originally Posted by MCXU:
EAST: Georgetown, Providence, Richmond, Saint John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova
WEST: Butler, DePaul, Marquette, Notre Dame, St. Louis, and Xavier.

I really hate divisions, and I really hate having Xavier in some western focused division.

I doubt ND will want to be in a conference with Richmond and Butler. Just me.

Xavier has spent a lot of time and resources putting itself in a more eastern focused conference.

In this set up, 4 of our division partners would be in a different time zone.

[DC Muskie]

A lot more appealing than the following:

You're still not going to get a huge upgrade...and don't forget most of those members would be going the opposite direction of money.

St. Johns gets a good tv deal because they are in a conference with UConn, Syracuse and Pitt. Those teams leave, all I'm saying, tv people aren't going to be that excited about St. John's and Dayton.

I could be wrong. Just an initial thought.

[LA Muskie]

You're still not going to get a huge upgrade...and don't forget most of those members would be going the opposite direction of money.

St. Johns gets a good tv deal because they are in a conference with UConn, Syracuse and Pitt. Those teams leave, all I'm saying, tv people aren't going to be that excited about St. John's and Dayton.

I could be wrong. Just an initial thought.
For many of the schools, this will be the new reality. It may be a tough transition, but they don't have much of a choice. No, the conference will not garner the same type of deal. But I think it *will* still generate better revenue streams than the A-10.

[Aughnanure]

Sounds like Dayton (ancient history). Yes, Memphis sucked when Calipari arrived. Google Tic Price. And maybe Larry Finch, too, just for fun.

I may have calculated wrong, but I have Boise at 146-32 in 14+ years dating back to Houston Nutt's first season as HC there. He was 5-6 that year, so they're 141-26 since.

Seems like pretty good staying power to me.

Look, I get your point - Whatever conference that this becomes it will need viable football powers. I just don't think you take out one of your premier basketball powers just to get it. Maybe SMU, UCF, USF instead. I just don't get why everyone is willing to throw away Memphis like it adds no value. You can be marginally pretty good with this football setup in this hypothetical conference, but it will absolutely need to be a power in basketball to earn its seat at the big boy table.

This conference will never compete at the level in football of the PAC B1G or SEC will, so basketball is its one chance to become a major influence and name in college sports to slowly rise its football programs over time. Memphis is a better market, fits better geographically and improves recruiting (i.e., more games in cali, the south, Texas and Florida the better. Its pretty much the only reason anyone wants USF or UCF).

I just think out west Nevada, UNLV, BYU, Gonzaga (this is a hybrid conference, as well as the fact that we should look after our "own") should be first. After that, I think Boise, Fresno, New Mexico enter the mix.

If the bball only schools ever have to go it alone, teams like Memphis and UNLV could be huge for the conference (can't get into one of 4X64 football conf, will at least want bball program to compete at highest level).

[xubrew]

The New York Times guy who broke the Syracuse/Pitt story was interviewed on ESPN radio this afternoon.
He had an interesting thought about Big East football. Had to do with currently holding a place in the BCS slot...not quite sure how that is earned.
Anyhow, his point was that this was a very, very valuable thing, and that they would work really hard to keep it...football wise. Something about needing 6 teams in a conference for at least 5 years or something.

Not sure how that is possible if UConn and Rutgers bail.

When the Big East developed it's current format, they only had five teams that had been together for more than five years. Louisville, Cincinnati and South Florida did not come from BCS conferences.

The old rule for being an automatic quialfier and earning an automatic bid to NCAA Championships was that leagues needed six teams that had been affiliated for five years. That may be where he's getting that from, but A) that's no longer the rule, and B) BCS bowls are not NCAA Championship events. The only qualification for having an automatic bid to a BCS Bowl is having the BCS say that your conference automatically qualifies.


Umm no. If it was all about Football, why are Cuse, Pitt, UConn and Rutgers going to the ACC? And no, Memphis will not suck at basketball anytime soon. This is the same crap people try to throw at Duke, saying Duke was never good before Coach K. Memphis has history, moreso than Boise St. Congrats on winning the Big West in the 90-s, I guess.

Memphis
23 NCAA Tourney appearances
11 Sweet Sixteens
6 Elite Eights
3 Final Fours
2 Runner Ups

I agree. It's not about football as much as it is about revenue and TV markets. This sews up the entire east coast for the ACC. The fact that the football teams aren't all that competitive doesn't matter.


@BearcatLair: Sources tell BearcatLair.com that the SEC has turned down #WVU application for admittance.

Like I said before, it's hard to drive an RV there, and it's cold in the late fall.

In all seriousness, I am surprised they were rejected. If nothing else, I thought the SEC would look to bring some balance to the league both geographically and numbers wise, and WVU would certainly qualify. The only thing I can consider is that the SEC has often stated that they're not in the business of breaking up other leagues.

The ACC has no such qualms. They seemingly ARE in the business of breaking up other leagues...particularly the Big East. I mean, this is the second time in ten years teams have run to the ACC and the Big East has had to reformat.


Well of course it's not their preference. Preferences were thrown out the window last weekend when SU and Pitt bolted. A&M was the first wave. SU and Pitt created the flood. (Although the real damage hits when TX, OK and their kid brothers announce...)

It's every man, woman and child for itself.

Having said that, one has to acknowledge that although aligning with them would be Xavier's preference, it doesn't mean it will happen.

The eight non-football schools had a conference call this morning, and Notre Dame was a part of it. One has to assume it was to assess the current situation.

Notre Dame's football schedule has been completed all the way through 2018. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't look at joining a conference in football, but it is worth noting. They certainly don't need to join a conference to aid them in scheduling.

I'm a long way from certain, but it would not surprise me at all if the eight non-football schools went their own way without looking to expand at all. They're aligned with Notre Dame, and could either start their own network, use Notre Dame football and men's basketball as a platform, and affiliate with NBC/Versus, or if not be in a position to negotiate a favorable deal and only have to share it eight ways.

Other revenue streams...home basketball games. an eigth team league would result in 15 OOC games, and these are teams that like to play at home. This gives them more opportunities to do so. It also leaves plenty of room for out of conference fixture games such as Nova v Big Five, Georgetown v Syracuse, ND v teams like Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, IU and other teams that they should be playing, but don't, Marquette v Wisconsin, UWM and UWGB, and the like. Nova and Georgetown would probably look to continue to play Syracuse and UConn. Those are the types of games that would generate more TV revenue.

They really don't need anybody else. The eight of them would be enough. That, and Xavier has no real affiliation with any of them that I can tell. We don't play any of them regularly in basketball, and when we do, it is often in a tournament of some sort. Do we play them in ANY sports??

There are certainly things that Xavier can bring to the table, but that doesn't mean that they'll be seaking X out, or for that matter anyone else out. I'm not saying that it won't happen. Like I said, I'm far from certain. I am saying that I'm prepared for them to not look to add anyone. They may not.

[GuyFawkes38]

First thing first. We need UC to separate from the Big East.

I'm a little concerned about that. A quick glance at the UC board shows that many people believe that UC is too cheap to pay the buyout and switch conferences to save their football program.

Of course, hopefully UC doesn't get a choice in the matter and there's a permanent parting of the ways between the football and bball schools in the Big East.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I could care less about Dayton. Now is the time for X to do what's best for them first and foremost then worry about others.

Joining forces with Marquette, Butler, St Johns, GTown, Nova, Seton Hall, Depaul, etc should be priority number one. Call it a Catholic league, call it the Big East, call it the Nic Cage conference I don't care. But now is the time for the Bball only schools to come together. The A10 was good for awhile but they've demonstrated they will not cut bait with Fordham/Lasalle/St Bony.

If we want to compete at the level of the Duke's/UNC's of the world consistently, we need to upgrade our conference competition.

Yes the Big East without Syracuse/Pitt/Uconn would not be as good but its still better than the A10 financially and in terms of exposure.

[LA Muskie]

First thing first. We need UC to separate from the Big East.

I'm a little concerned about that. A quick glance at the UC board shows that many people believe that UC is too cheap to pay the buyout and switch conferences to save their football program.

Of course, hopefully UC doesn't get a choice in the matter and there's a permanent parting of the ways between the football and bball schools in the Big East.

Just shows what UC fans and alumni know. There's no buyout to pay if the conference is dead.

But I agree, there is no XU in the Big East (or whatever it may be called) so long as UC is there.

[GuyFawkes38]

Just shows what UC fans and alumni know. There's no buyout to pay if the conference is dead.

But I agree, there is no XU in the Big East (or whatever it may be called) so long as UC is there.

It seems like no matter what, the bball schools will want to keep the Big East name. So the Big East will always be around. Not sure if UC would have to pay a buyout to the Big East if it breaks apart. Lots of legal issues.

Somehow we need UC to be separated from Big East basketball basketball schools.

Uggghh. I hate UC. Hopefully they don't ruin this for us.

[STL_XUfan]

Not sure if UC would have to pay a buyout to the Big East if it breaks apart. Lots of legal issues.



.

I think they should do it with a card.

http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/809e9863082f45a78f0fb871ad3e192f.png

[waggy]

There are certainly things that Xavier can bring to the table, but that doesn't mean that they'll be seaking X out, or for that matter anyone else out. I'm not saying that it won't happen. Like I said, I'm far from certain. I am saying that I'm prepared for them to not look to add anyone. They may not.

Excellent post brew.

Personally, I don't think the hybrid is necessarily dead yet either.

Bottom line X fans need to let this play out, and be prepared for staying in the A10. I still think that's a lot more likely than an an association with the BE schools.

And has been pointed out, the potential upgrade such an association might result in, doesn't equal the hype this issue has received on the boards.

[paulxu]

If the SEC turned down WVU, they may be waiting for Louisville.

[X-band '01]

How appealing of league is it from a tv perspective if the following schools form a basketball centric conference:

St. John's
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
Seton Hall
DePaul
Marquette
Xavier
Dayton

As much as I like this league, I don't think there will ever be a nine school conference. And not having Notre Dame, makes it even less appealing.

I think we will see ND join the ACC or the Big Ten. The Big East will be no more especially if UConn and Rutgers join the ACC.

But if we join a conference and it must be 14 teams, I'm afraid it won't garner great tv package.

This all catholic league looks good on paper, but will it get the tv viewers?

Then again, as people suggested, what other options for GTown and Nova are out there?

It would be the top conference for a network like CBS Sports Network and Versus/soon to be NBC Sports Network, but it would be secondary on the Mickey Mouse network once the BCS conferences redo their TV deals and carve out the lion's share of TV revenue.

In other words, it's a lateral move of sorts. It might push the A-10 without Xavier/Dayton/whomever down into MAC territory as far as trying to get TV exposure. At that point the A-10 may as well start making BracketBusters reservations.

[X-band '01]

If the SEC turned down WVU, they may be waiting for Louisville.

Maybe the SEC will go after Ohio State - at least then the Buckeyes would learn how to cheat the right way.

We can all dream, can't we?

[GoMuskies]

If the SEC turned down WVU, they may be waiting for Louisville.

Doubt it. They wouldn't have to wait for Louisville.

[paulxu]

Would someone please explain this infatuation with Dayton to me. I just don't get it.
Are we joined at the hip?
Is there some super-secret deal between the schools that they go everywhere together?

If you were (the BE BB schools) looking to expand to whatever; 10, 12, or 14..and looked at the A-10 for potential members, I get XU.
Top 15 school in the country for basketball according to Forbes.
Dominates the conference in recent years.
25 year track record of growing excellence, and consistent NCAA appearances.

But Dayton is not the second most attractive A-10 school.
They have one year of better than .500 ball in-conference since expansion.
Have one NCAA tournament win in 20 years.

Yes, they have faithful fans. So what? A lot of schools do.
It would seem that Richmond, St. Joe's, URI, St. Louis, Butler, Creighton, etc, etc all have better credentials/reasons for being in an expanded BE.

What the heck am I missing here?

On a really strange note, here is a quote from a post by the editor of UDPride commenting on going to the BE:

However, it will still be better than the current A-10 especially as we would bring Xavier with us and possibly one or two of the other schools.

I need to drink a lot more bourbon to understand this Dayton thing.

[Muskie1000]

I hate sounding negative but I think this is our best opportunity to get out of the A-10 and if not now I'm thinking never. I like the A-10 but I'm so sick of the bottom feeders. In fact I would be more than willing to stay if they just kicked them out. But since that isn't going to happen, we need to get out.

[DC Muskie]

But since that isn't going to happen, we need to get out.

Why do people think this?

How have we been hurt by being in the A-10?

I get there are programs at the bottom that suck...but there are programs like that everywhere.

So why do we have to get out? I don't understand.

[waggy]

Would someone please explain this infatuation with Dayton to me. I just don't get it.
Are we joined at the hip?
Is there some super-secret deal between the schools that they go everywhere together?

If you were (the BE BB schools) looking to expand to whatever; 10, 12, or 14..and looked at the A-10 for potential members, I get XU.
Top 15 school in the country for basketball according to Forbes.
Dominates the conference in recent years.
25 year track record of growing excellence, and consistent NCAA appearances.

But Dayton is not the second most attractive A-10 school.
They have one year of better than .500 ball in-conference since expansion.
Have one NCAA tournament win in 20 years.

Yes, they have faithful fans. So what? A lot of schools do.
It would seem that Richmond, St. Joe's, URI, St. Louis, Butler, Creighton, etc, etc all have better credentials/reasons for being in an expanded BE.

What the heck am I missing here?

On a really strange note, here is a quote from a post by the editor of UDPride commenting on going to the BE:

However, it will still be better than the current A-10 especially as we would bring Xavier with us and possibly one or two of the other schools.

I need to drink a lot more bourbon to understand this Dayton thing.

What do you expect to read on the UD board?

Don't go there.

And if you do, don't drag it here.

[DC Muskie]

Would someone please explain this infatuation with Dayton to me. I just don't get it.
Are we joined at the hip?
Is there some super-secret deal between the schools that they go everywhere together?

If you were (the BE BB schools) looking to expand to whatever; 10, 12, or 14..and looked at the A-10 for potential members, I get XU.
Top 15 school in the country for basketball according to Forbes.
Dominates the conference in recent years.
25 year track record of growing excellence, and consistent NCAA appearances.

But Dayton is not the second most attractive A-10 school.
They have one year of better than .500 ball in-conference since expansion.
Have one NCAA tournament win in 20 years.

Yes, they have faithful fans. So what? A lot of schools do.
It would seem that Richmond, St. Joe's, URI, St. Louis, Butler, Creighton, etc, etc all have better credentials/reasons for being in an expanded BE.

What the heck am I missing here?

On a really strange note, here is a quote from a post by the editor of UDPride commenting on going to the BE:

However, it will still be better than the current A-10 especially as we would bring Xavier with us and possibly one or two of the other schools.

I need to drink a lot more bourbon to understand this Dayton thing.

Simply put there is an agreement that we are a packaged deal.

That's not to say that couldn't change, but we are not going to leave Dayton behind.

And we sure as hell am not following them anywhere.

[paulxu]

What do you expect to read on the UD board?

Don't go there.

And if you do, don't drag it here.

Sorry. Thought it was so ridiculous that it was actually funny.
Still don't know why we are a package deal.

[muskienick]

Why do people think this?

How have we been hurt by being in the A-10?

I get there are programs at the bottom that suck...but there are programs like that everywhere.

So why do we have to get out? I don't understand.

I don't necessarily think we've "been hurt" by our membership in the A-10 either. It a matter of not being able to maximize our potential. And there is no doubt that the gulf between us and the LaSalles, Fordhams, etc. of the A-10 would not exist if we were in a Conference with the BB remnants of the Big East + Butler, Richmond and St. Louis. It would be an immeasurably higher-profile Conference than the A-10 is now. And instead of ever hearing talk of Juan Bid, we'd be wondering if it would be five, six, or seven (or more)! That means more money and more exposure. I'd gladly trade that in for our circumstances in the A-10.

[xubrew]

If the SEC turned down WVU, they may be waiting for Louisville.

Doubtful. Very doubtful. Louisville's athletic department is second to none, but institutionally it has more in common with the typical MAC school than it does with the typical SEC school.

That matters more than you think. It doesn't matter to the SEC as much as it does to the Big Ten and Pac ??, but it still matters.

[muskienick]

Sorry. Thought it was so ridiculous that it was actually funny.
Still don't know why we are a package deal.

I agree (as my previous post points out quite clearly).

[Giacomazzi]

SEC turned down West Virginia (for now) because they are waiting for something bigger to occur. They could be anticipating getting an ACC school if Notre Dame goes ACC. I think that's pretty unlikely, but the SEC is big and strong enough that it can afford to react to the situations as they happen.

Villanova already applied for the ACC as well, if that tells you where their preference lies. The new Big East would be considered a step down for them without Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and UConn. However, the reality is they are not priority number one for the ACC. That is Notre Dame and Texas.

As X fans, we are waiting for the Big 12 to get raided by the Pac 12. That will set the rest of this in motion.

[muskienick]

Doubtful. Very doubtful. Louisville's athletic department is second to none, but institutionally it has more in common with the typical MAC school than it does with the typical SEC school.

Please explain this, brew. Are the SEC universities of lower institutionality than UofL? I ask this because a quick review of its pedigree causes one to be pretty impressed.
Endowment ~ $600,000,000
Student Body ~ 20,000
Masters degrees offered in about 80 fields
Doctorates in over 20 fields
Its College of Business is ranked in the top 7% in the Nation
Its dental school is ranked in the top 10 (quality of admissions)
The Entrepreneurship Dctoral Program is rated as one of the best in the WORLD!
It opened in 1813, became a Municipal University in 1846, and a State College in 1970.

What is the typical SEC university like that causes UofL not to fit?

[T-Time]

From a very reliable source: Kansas and Kansas St. have been invited to join the Big East. If they accept the invitation the conference will stay as it is now. If they decline the basketball only schools will form their own conference and XU WILL be invited along with Butler. They may consider other schools, but XU and BU WILL be invited as the 1st 2 additions.

[GoMuskies]

UofL was a Tier 4 university forever before they got into the Big East and were "miraculously" upgraded to Tier 3. Louisville is a decent enough school, but it sort of is what it is: an urban school with an urban mission to educate basically whoever the local public high schools churn out that have any interest in going to college. They do have some pretty well-respected graduate programs (Law, Medicine, Detistry, MBA), but it's not a highly-regarded undergrad institution (outside of perhaps the engineering school).

SEC schools are the big land-grant schools that attract kids from all over the state, and they are generally higher ranked in their high school classes. Any and everyone who wants in doesn't generally get into most SEC schools (as opposed to UofL).

[Giacomazzi]

If Kansas and Kansas St join the Big East, then the 4 slated to leave the Big XII will CERTAINLY do so immediately. And none of that will stop the UConn, Rutgers, West Virginia train from happening, leaving the Big East and Big XII exactly where they were in the first place.

Oklahoma is the key, as Oklahoma is the SEC's pipe dream to complete the Texas A&M move. If OU goes west, the SEC will accept West Virginia and the Big East Middle is back where it started.

[golfitup]

Great! Thanks for sharing!

[DC Muskie]

I don't see why they wouldn't accept.

Kind of disheartening. Where else does Kansas and Kansas State go?

[GoMuskies]

Where else does Kansas and Kansas State go?

The Missouri Valley Conference seems very appealing.

I move to Boston, and Louisville joins the Big East with football road games in Hartford, CT and Syracuse, NY. I move to Kansas, and it looks like the Cards are going to be joining up with KU and K-State. This is all working out pretty well for me.

[DC Muskie]

I don't necessarily think we've "been hurt" by our membership in the A-10 either. It a matter of not being able to maximize our potential. And there is no doubt that the gulf between us and the LaSalles, Fordhams, etc. of the A-10 would not exist if we were in a Conference with the BB remnants of the Big East + Butler, Richmond and St. Louis. It would be an immeasurably higher-profile Conference than the A-10 is now. And instead of ever hearing talk of Juan Bid, we'd be wondering if it would be five, six, or seven (or more)! That means more money and more exposure. I'd gladly trade that in for our circumstances in the A-10.

Makes sense.

[muskienick]

UofL was a Tier 4 university forever before they got into the Big East and were "miraculously" upgraded to Tier 3. Louisville is a decent enough school, but it sort of is what it is: an urban school with an urban mission to educate basically whoever the local public high schools churn out that have any interest in going to college. They do have some pretty well-respected graduate programs (Law, Medicine, Detistry, MBA), but it's not a highly-regarded undergrad institution (outside of perhaps the engineering school).

SEC schools are the big land-grant schools that attract kids from all over the state, and they are generally higher ranked in their high school classes. Any and everyone who wants in doesn't generally get into most SEC schools (as opposed to UofL).

I doubt that UofL will get the invite to the SEC. That certainly was not my implication. I was just curious what separated it from the typical SEC school.

Since Louisville has now been a State University for over 40 years, one would expect its nature would be closer to that of an SEC school than it was in pre-1970. Certainly, its home sports facilities (Papa John Football Stadium - 55,000 and the KFC Yumi Center for basketball - 22,000) are very BCS-like.

I believe that Louisville, UC, South Florida, and West Virginia are likely to become members of a new Big 12 (or whatever its name would be). I don't see Big East football surviving the next big change in BCS conference structure changes. However, UC may have to make some big concessions before the Big 12 grants it membership. I could see them requiring UC to schedule its Conference games at Paul Brown Stadium. Given UC's financial circumstances, that might be too much to ask. Then, it's UC back to the MAC or CUSA (where it belongs!).

[STL_XUfan]

From a very reliable source: Kansas and Kansas St. have been invited to join the Big East. If they accept the invitation the conference will stay as it is now. If they decline the basketball only schools will form their own conference and XU WILL be invited along with Butler. They may consider other schools, but XU and BU WILL be invited as the 1st 2 additions.

Without revealing your source (since i assume that would never happen anyway), which side of this equation is your source on?

[DC Muskie]

If Kansas and Kansas St join the Big East, then the 4 slated to leave the Big XII will CERTAINLY do so immediately. And none of that will stop the UConn, Rutgers, West Virginia train from happening, leaving the Big East and Big XII exactly where they were in the first place.

Oklahoma is the key, as Oklahoma is the SEC's pipe dream to complete the Texas A&M move. If OU goes west, the SEC will accept West Virginia and the Big East Middle is back where it started.

Wouldn't the conference look like this:

Kansas
Kansas State
Louisville
Cincinnati
South Florida
TCU


It would seem to me, that if the Kansas contingent accepts, then Iowa State and Baylor would come on board and then it would be done.

Why send out an invite to just Kansas and Kansas State if the next steps are not Iowa and Baylor?

[anXUfan]

Excellent post brew.

Personally, I don't think the hybrid is necessarily dead yet either.

Bottom line X fans need to let this play out, and be prepared for staying in the A10. I still think that's a lot more likely than an an association with the BE schools.

And has been pointed out, the potential upgrade such an association might result in, doesn't equal the hype this issue has received on the boards.

Agree

[waggy]

Oklahoma is the key, as Oklahoma is the SEC's pipe dream to complete the Texas A&M move. If OU goes west, the SEC will accept West Virginia and the Big East Middle is back where it started.

What this says is that all the love OU has been giving the PAC12, is a message to Texas. Ie, We will go to the PAC12 with you, but if you don't come, then we are going to the SEC and you are on your own.

[muskienick]

From a very reliable source: Kansas and Kansas St. have been invited to join the Big East. If they accept the invitation the conference will stay as it is now. If they decline the basketball only schools will form their own conference and XU WILL be invited along with Butler. They may consider other schools, but XU and BU WILL be invited as the 1st 2 additions.

I think they'd be crazy to join the Big East. If they hang tough with Baylor and Iowa State they could take in the likes of BYU, Boise State, Air Force Academy, TCU (whom one would imagine is already penning its "Never Mind!" letter to the Big East), Houston, and Colorado State and invite UC, Louisville, South Florida, and WVU (if they aren't scarfed up by somebody else) to make up a decent (although geographically varied) Conference. By joining the surviving Big East Football Schools (of which there would be only 3-4), they would give away their name and possibly their banked Conference shares, and make it likely the Conference would be otherwise stacked with eastern teams instead of the western ones I mentioned that have a decidedly better football pedigree (than East Carolina, Central Florida, Memphis, Florida International, etc.).

[T-Time]

My source is an XU person that is involved in the day-to-day operations of the basketball team.

[bobbiemcgee]

KU and KSU won't jump on a sinking BE FB ship until all the water is bailed. They'll wait to inspect the carnage.

[XUFan09]

I think they'd be crazy to join the Big East. If they hang tough with Baylor and Iowa State they could take in the likes of BYU, Boise State, Air Force Academy, TCU (whom one would imagine is already penning its "Never Mind!" letter to the Big East), Houston, and Colorado State and invite UC, Louisville, South Florida, and WVU (if they aren't scarfed up by somebody else) to make up a decent (although geographically varied) Conference. By joining the surviving Big East Football Schools (of which there would be only 3-4), they would give away their name and possibly their banked Conference shares, and make it likely the Conference would be otherwise stacked with eastern teams instead of the western ones I mentioned that have a decidedly better football pedigree (than East Carolina, Central Florida, Memphis, Florida International, etc.).

I agree with this. The potential scenarios with the remaining Big 12 members poaching Big East teams are better than the other way around. Plus, the Big 12 brand is just much better than the Big East brand, with or without UT/OU. Not to mention that the Big East seems even more prone to future poaching than the Big 12.

[GoMuskies]

I agree with everything other than Colorado State having any sort of football pedigree.

[XUFan09]

I agree with everything other than Colorado State having any sort of football pedigree.

Ah, missed that part lol

[xubrew]

Please explain this, brew. Are the SEC universities of lower institutionality than UofL? I ask this because a quick review of its pedigree causes one to be pretty impressed.
Endowment ~ $600,000,000
Student Body ~ 20,000
Masters degrees offered in about 80 fields
Doctorates in over 20 fields
Its College of Business is ranked in the top 7% in the Nation
Its dental school is ranked in the top 10 (quality of admissions)
The Entrepreneurship Dctoral Program is rated as one of the best in the WORLD!
It opened in 1813, became a Municipal University in 1846, and a State College in 1970.

What is the typical SEC university like that causes UofL not to fit?

They're certainly not lower.

I guess I should preface this by saying I think the US News and World Report rankings are full of crap, but they seem to carry a lot of weight.

Louisville has a tier four classification. Much of that has to do with their admission standards and not the quality of education, but nevertheless it is a tier four. No other SEC school is.

Louisville has approx. $127 million in total research grants. Most SEC schools have way more than double that. I don't know how research money is shared among the SEC members, but in the Big Ten, it is shared to some degree, and that is one of the reasons the university presidents look for schools with huge amounts of research dollars.

That's really all I have.

At the end of the day, though, things like that probably end up mattering more than they should. The university presidents make the decisions, and when you look at the type of institution, it's not a big state school or a flagship school. Athletically it's solid, but institutionally it's probably closer to Cincinnati or Memphis or Marshall or Milwaukee or UAB or places like that. That comes off as more of a knock than what I intend it to be, but in reality I'm just trying to look at this the way the university presidents do.

[GoMuskies]

UC is a lot better school than UofL (at least in this classic ratings sense).

[MHettel]

On the record.

-Texas, Ttech, Ok, OK State to Pac 10, taking them to 16.

-Missouri, KSU, Kansas and Iowa State to the Big 10, taking them to 16.

-UConn & Rutgers to ACC taking them to 16.

-WVU to SEC. SEC Sits at 14 teams.

Displaced: ND (by choice), UC, UofL, South Fla, TCU, BE BB only schools, Baylor.

Next:
The displaced teams with football (Less ND) realize they arent invited to the game and realize they will never be. So, they focus on putting together a Basketball centric conference (still has football) with as strong a basketball presence as they can muster up. They want the perception to be "4 major confernces for Football, 5 for basketball."

New Big East: (football- 8 teams) UC, UofL, Memphis, USF, TCU, Baylor, Temple, Charlotte, (Basketball- 12 teams) GTown, Villanova, St. Johns, ND, Depaul, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall, Xavier, Butler, St. Louis, Richmond.

General Football arrangement: Top 4 conferences have 2 divisions, declare division champs and then play a conference championship game. Coincidentally (or not) there are 4 major bowls (not called BCS anymore) with exactly 8 total positions which is EXACTLY the amount of teams that won a division! It's Winners vs Winners, Losers vs. losers in the 4 major bowls. Then winner vs. winner (new Bowl game, with superbowl level buildup) for the national championship.

Big East basketball Arrangement: remember their objective is to nose into the discussion as a top 5 basketball conference, so things that couldn't happen (like UC and XU in the same conference-) simply are in the realm of possibility. 2 10 team divisions, with unbalanced schedule. I think the max amount of conference games you can play is 18, so play 4 teams in your division home-and-home (8 games), play the reamining division teams once each (5 more games), then play 5 of the 10 teams in the other division once. Thats 18 games, and at minimum you play each team in the other divion at least every other year. Divisions are NOT based on geography.

Division #1- XU, UC, Villanova, Temple, Butler, TCU, ND, St. Louis, USF, SJU

Division #2- Marquette, GTown, Louisville, Memphis, Providence, Baylor, DePaul, charlotte, Seton Hall, Richmond.

Bank on it!

[waggy]

And they can call it the Big CF.

[SixFig]

And they can call it the Big CF.

Is it sad that I immediately recognized what that stood for?

[xubrew]

UC is a lot better school than UofL (at least in this classic ratings sense).

I'll take your word for it. So, with UofL's situation being what it is, and the fact that UK is there, I don't think it is likely that the SEC is courting them.

[waggy]

Is it sad that I immediately recognized what that stood for?

Maybe it's just the thought of 20 teams.

I'd join that conference though.

But I demand an equal share of all football monies!

[paulxu]

Not if you ever served with the Marines.

[T-Time]

I like it, but dump Charlotte and Richmond and make it 18.

[MHettel]

Need Charlotte for football.

[paulxu]

What we really need are less threads about the same topic.

[XUFan09]

What we really need are less threads about the same topic.

This.

And the SEC just recently turned down the WVU application, apparently (which is too bad, really).

[xubrew]

I think they'd be crazy to join the Big East. If they hang tough with Baylor and Iowa State they could take in the likes of BYU, Boise State, Air Force Academy, TCU (whom one would imagine is already penning its "Never Mind!" letter to the Big East), Houston, and Colorado State and invite UC, Louisville, South Florida, and WVU (if they aren't scarfed up by somebody else) to make up a decent (although geographically varied) Conference. By joining the surviving Big East Football Schools (of which there would be only 3-4), they would give away their name and possibly their banked Conference shares, and make it likely the Conference would be otherwise stacked with eastern teams instead of the western ones I mentioned that have a decidedly better football pedigree (than East Carolina, Central Florida, Memphis, Florida International, etc.).

If they go to the Big East, the league will look like this:

Kansas
K State
Louisville
WVU (assuming their rejection from the SEC sticks)
Cincinnati
South Florida
TCU
Possibly Baylor
Possibly Iowa State
-Possibly all the basketball schools as well (Nova, GTown, ND, etc)

If the Big Twelve dissolves entirely, their keep their NCAA Tournament revenue shares, avoid an exit fee, and acquire NCAA revenue sharing and exit fees of schools that are leaving the Big East.

That hardly seems crazy to me. At the very least, it doesn't seem drastically different than staying in the Big Twelve and adding a lot of the teams you suggested. I mean, is it really substantially stronger??

BYU
Colorado State
AFA
Kansas
Kansas State
Iowa State
Baylor
South Florida
Louisville
Cincinnati
West Virginia

I mean, the bulk of the teams are exactly the same either way. If the Big East does remain in tact, then Louisville, UC, etc would be dishing out approx. $5 million bucks and giving up their NCAA Tourney revenue to the likes of Nova, GTown and all the remaining members.

It seems to me that option A is the better option. At the very least, I wouldn't call them crazy for going with that option considering that the overall result is pretty similiar.

[T-Time]

C'mon Paul you can handle it.

[PMI]

I don't see this happening at all. I don't think we'll be in the same conference as any football schools, much less UC. I also don't see us in a conference with Temple if this all shakes up because I think they'll end up in the MAC for everything like they are already for football. I don't understand the sentence about them wanting the perception of being 4 major conferences for football and 5 for basketball. Why would all the football schools in the discussion be so concerned about being in a conference that is only considered big-time for basketball? Football puts the food on the table. It's a creative scenario but I think it's far-fetched. I understand the notion of all the leftovers getting ditched out of the BCS conferences joining with current non-BCS basketball powers and all, but I don't think we'll ever see a conference that includes Xavier, Cincinnati, Baylor, TCU and South Florida.

[Giacomazzi]

This.

And the SEC just recently turned down the WVU application, apparently (which is too bad, really).

SEC is telling WVU to wait a few days to make sure that Oklahoma isn't coming to the SEC.

[GoMuskies]

Option B would add Boise State (probably instead of Colorado State who is awful at everything; why do they keep coming up?). That would seriously improve the football league (even if it's not adding much of a market).

[PM Thor]

Meanwhile, all the Big Greased honks in Bristol, Connecticut- right next door to UCon- are having seizures that their overblown, overhyped baby is going away. At least they're not locked into a big money long term TV contract.

Real smart, Big Least. Turning down a big money deal last year that would have locked ESPN in. Now your league is breaking apart.

Meanwhile, SucKS has no AD and no place to go. Ah, they'll probably wind up in some hybrid with K-State, Kansas, Baylor, Iowa State TCU, S Fla and Louisville. That won't be a Big East brand, though. That is all midwest.

Bye, bye Big East football. You won't be missed- by anyone.

Seriously, who did NOT see the breakup of the BE coming? Everyone with at least half a brain was calling it, with the split between the football and basketball, and the BE trying to add every team available in order to bolster their league stature while ignoring the fact that there was in conference teams pulling in different directions?

I LOVE IT. UC is clueless, with no leadership at the worst time possible, and their fans will still probably say they are in a better league. Ha, who is in the more stable conference? I put money on it that X sits in a better position than UC does right now with the conference alignment stuff...

I HATE dayton.

[xudash]

From a very reliable source: Kansas and Kansas St. have been invited to join the Big East. If they accept the invitation the conference will stay as it is now. If they decline the basketball only schools will form their own conference and XU WILL be invited along with Butler. They may consider other schools, but XU and BU WILL be invited as the 1st 2 additions.

This makes no sense.

And the idea that you heard this from someone within the Xavier camp makes less sense.

But not much of anything is making much sense these days, so who knows.

[xudash]

It looks like we might be sitting around for another week or so to see how the next domino falls:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/sports/ncaafootball/19pac12.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fs ports%2Fncaafootball%2Findex.jsonp

[Nocalmuskie]

Here is the ABSOLUTE LATEST, from Andy Katz

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6993604/big-east-big-12-talking-possible-merger-sources-say

[XUFan09]

SEC is telling WVU to wait a few days to make sure that Oklahoma isn't coming to the SEC.

Ah, that makes me hope. OU/OSU to the Pac XX and then WVU to the SEC? Pretty please...

[XUFan09]

This makes no sense.

And the idea that you heard this from someone within the Xavier camp makes less sense.

But not much of anything is making much sense these days, so who knows.

I don't see how it doesn't make sense. Between the Big 12 and the Big East, one conference survives and one conference collapses (or they both collapse now or down the road). It's not necessarily the Big East that will collapse right now, even with their hybrid system. The Big East seems to trying to survive at the expense of the Big 12, which is good strategy. Now, if KU and KSU turn down this offer, Big East football is done and the Big 12 could still survive.

[XUFan09]

Here is the ABSOLUTE LATEST, from Andy Katz

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6993604/big-east-big-12-talking-possible-merger-sources-say

Sweet, they would most likely follow the logical choice of Big 12 teams absorbing Big East teams instead of the other way around. I wonder if KU and KSU are already in on this decision?

[SixFig]

Sweet, they would most likely follow the logical choice of Big 12 teams absorbing Big East teams instead of the other way around. I wonder if KU and KSU are already in on this decision?

This opens up for the basketball schools to save the Big East name and add our favorite team.

[XUFan09]

This opens up for the basketball schools to save the Big East name and add our favorite team.

Yep, this could be awesome for X. And this conference would be definitely better than the A10:

Georgetown/Villanova > Temple/Richmond
Marquette/Notre Dame/St. John's > St. Joe's/SLU/St. Bon/UD
Seton Hall > GW/Duquesne/Charlotte
Providence > URI/UMass
DePaul > Fordham/Lasalle

And that's without including teams like Butler that might join.

[Roach]

I agree with everything other than Colorado State having any sort of football pedigree.

In the late 90s and early 2000s, CSU was actually decent at football; finished in the top 25 a number of times and won the WAC and/or MWC at least a few times. Moses Moreno, the QB who owns all of their school records, played in the NFL. Joey Porter is also a CSU alum. In the past 20 seasons, CSU has played in 11 bowl games, winning 6 of them. Is this a great "pedigree"? Admittedly, no, but it's not like they're New Mexico State or UNLV ...

[paulxu]

But not much of anything is making much sense these days, so who knows.

True enough, but the K/KU invite from the BE is probably what Thamel was talking about when he said they were going to try and keep that BCS slot as it had so much value.

Funny statement of the week: OK president moaning about not happy with Baylor threatening lawsuit. Hello Ken Starr!

[Founding Father]

I really want WVU to go to the SEC to further weaken the Big East but I have a new concern that I can see playing out that would be terrible in regards to XU.

What if the ACC adds UCONN as a full member and ND, Villnova and Georgetown as bball/other sport members to get to 15 football teams and 18 bball teams, leaving a football spot open for ND?

I don't think Rutgers is all that appealing to the ACC, especially if they think they can get ND down the road.

The new BE is a lot less attractive without Villanova and Georgetown.

[Titanxman04]

ND ISN'T JOINING A FOOTBALL CONFERENCE. Period. They are a dream get for all the conferences, but ND has a dream already.

Play whoever you want.

Get ALL the revenue.

Have special BCS qualifiers already written for them. Thus, having the chance to make it to a BCS game WITHOUT having to win a conference.

THEIR OWN TV NETWORK.

Please...this is all really crazy, but there's ONE certainty throughout all of this. That is that ND is keeping their football team independent. They get to play all over the country throughout the year, and thus, get to market themselves in every corner of college football. With rivalries with Michigan, MSU, USC, Stanford, Purdue, etc... they won't end those anytime soon, and would have to pick and chose once they picked a conference.

ND football is staying put. I don't see why people speculate differently.

[Founding Father]

ND ISN'T JOINING A FOOTBALL CONFERENCE. Period. They are a dream get for all the conferences, but ND has a dream already.

Play whoever you want.

Get ALL the revenue.

Have special BCS qualifiers already written for them. Thus, having the chance to make it to a BCS game WITHOUT having to win a conference.

THEIR OWN TV NETWORK.

Please...this is all really crazy, but there's ONE certainty throughout all of this. That is that ND is keeping their football team independent. They get to play all over the country throughout the year, and thus, get to market themselves in every corner of college football. With rivalries with Michigan, MSU, USC, Stanford, Purdue, etc... they won't end those anytime soon, and would have to pick and chose once they picked a conference.

ND football is staying put. I don't see why people speculate differently.

The ACC could still invite the 4 I listed and play wait and see. New deals will have to be negotiated by the BCS and NCAA when these new conferences are formed. ND want to stay independent but according to the article above, if they are "forced" to join a football league, they prefer the ACC to the B10.

Even if the ACC does not invite ND for bball only, I can still see them adding just Villanova and Georgetown as bball only members along with full members UCONN and Rutgers.

[Founding Father]

http://delcotimes.com/articles/2011/09/20/sports/doc4e781db60618a385909264.txt

If true, this is good news for XU's chances on playing in a conference with Villanova.

[pizza delivery]

My X fandom aside, I am really intrigued by U of L vs Kansas, Syracuse vs UNC, Texas vs. Arizona, etc. The basketball world is going to be, well, a blood bath in conference play. This can only be bad for the mid major conferences, where landing games with these teams just got harder.

It seems XU may have established it's brand JUST on time to avoid being left out of the conversation, although working to improve the A10 or moving to another stronger alignment is paramount right now. I could give a damn about college football, but college basketball is getting drastically more about the haves as well.

Sadly, I think a conference that tries to sell itself as "basketball only" that doesn't actually deliver 2 or more top 10 teams every year will eventually lose respect to these 4 or 5 super conferences, which now contain 'every team that ever won anything ever!' (TM). The bottom of XU's new conference would include crap teams like Depaul, Seton Hall, Providence, heck possibly Dayton, etc. I don't want XU to play those teams any more than St Louis or Charlotte or Duquesne. Bobo has to think hard about where basketball is going. We may be best off just popping a cap in Fordham while all this commotion is going on. :D

[Masterofreality]

True enough, but the K/KU invite from the BE is probably what Thamel was talking about when he said they were going to try and keep that BCS slot as it had so much value.

Funny statement of the week: OK president moaning about not happy with Baylor threatening lawsuit. Hello Ken Starr!

Uh, the Big 12 has a BCS spot too- and there will be more teams left in that league than the decimated Big Least.

I could see SucKS and Louisville being invited to join the Big 12, but I really have a hard time seeing those midwest schools going with a "Big East" name. There will be no more football playing schools in the "East".

Maybe a merge/hybrid between the two leagues, but I cannot see it continuing in any way shape or form with basketball only schools like Providence, St. Johns and Seton Hall. That is way too crazy of a scheduling nightmare for basketball.

[BandAid]

Any word of what's going to happen to Memphis in all of this? I thought the reason of them growing a football program was to be eventually invited to a Big East type conference. If the Big East went all basketball would they downsize their football program to be a part of it? Or are they banking on sneaking a spot into the Big East / Big XII merger?

[GoMuskies]

Any word of what's going to happen to Memphis in all of this? I thought the reason of them growing a football program was to be eventually invited to a Big East type conference.

Memphis football has been around for 70 years. Have you seen it lately? They lost 47-3 to Arkansas State. The "growing" never really happened.

[GoMuskies]

I think a merger needs to look midwest to west, not east. The only decent football playing options you can add to such a league that are currently available (TCU, Boise, maybe Houston and Fresno) are west. There's nothing left in the east. Memphis is a trainwreck. ECU hasn't really matured into anything. UCF is likely to end up on probation soon (and not incoming freshman sleeping on upperclassmen couches probation like Boise).

[xubrew]

Uh, the Big 12 has a BCS spot too- and there will be more teams left in that league than the decimated Big Least.

I could see SucKS and Louisville being invited to join the Big 12, but I really have a hard time seeing those midwest schools going with a "Big East" name. There will be no more football playing schools in the "East".

Maybe a merge/hybrid between the two leagues, but I cannot see it continuing in any way shape or form with basketball only schools like Providence, St. Johns and Seton Hall. That is way too crazy of a scheduling nightmare for basketball.

They will have more schools with football teams, but not more full members. The Big Twelve is much more likely to dissolve than the Big East.

[XUglow]

Memphis football has been around for 70 years. Have you seen it lately? They lost 47-3 to Arkansas State. The "growing" never really happened.

Memphis football used to put a fairly decent product on the field, but they have never had much support from the fan base in attendance or on TV. They charge $50 per ticket when they host an SEC team because they can get it. They sell tickets for $5 each for other games. Calipari hurt the football program badly by alienating Ole Miss. Memphis has played Ole Miss home and home forever in football and basketball. Cal didn't see any gain for playing at Ole Miss at Ole Miss, so he canceled the series. (The Memphis AD had given him full scheduling authority.) Ole Miss said play basketball, or we cancel the football series. Cal wouldn't give in. Ole Miss canceled the football, and Memphis lost a $3M gate football game every other year. Memphis football is weaker with this lost revenue.

Now, everyone smells blood in the water in Memphis. Arkansas never had success recruiting Memphis, and Petrino has 4 commits from the Memphis area this year. Other schools are also hitting Memphis hard. Local kids that used to sign and play locally, now want no part of the stinking pile of poo that is Memphis football. Apparently, no serious conferences want a part of it either.

[GoMuskies]

Article titled "Schools That Could End Up Nowhere" from the WSJ with a big UC flag as soon as you click. Haven't read the article yet, but I certainly enjoyed the start!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904194604576581042205599216.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLE_Video_Third

[BBC 08]

Article titled "Schools That Could End Up Nowhere" from the WSJ with a big UC flag as soon as you click. Haven't read the article yet, but I certainly enjoyed the start!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904194604576581042205599216.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLE_Video_Third

You're gonna hate it then when you see Louisville in the next picture down.

[GoMuskies]

Nah, I knew that was coming. But I actually lauged out loud when I clicked the link and saw the UC flag.

UofL is fu%&ed, I think, which is too bad. If Louisville had only hired someone competent instead of Steve Klownthorpe...

[xudash]

I really want WVU to go to the SEC to further weaken the Big East but I have a new concern that I can see playing out that would be terrible in regards to XU.

What if the ACC adds UCONN as a full member and ND, Villnova and Georgetown as bball/other sport members to get to 15 football teams and 18 bball teams, leaving a football spot open for ND?

I don't think Rutgers is all that appealing to the ACC, especially if they think they can get ND down the road.

The new BE is a lot less attractive without Villanova and Georgetown.

The ACC WILL NOT pursue a hybrid format. It simply won't happen.

The same goes for the B1G, SEC, and PACxx.

The issue is whether the surviving, exhausted football leftovers from the BE and Big XII would be willing to entertain a hybrid at the point of coming together.

I don't believe they will.

Look at it, as just one example, from Kansas' point of view. Kansas, K-State and Mizzou, in particular, will bring a lot to the hoops side of the new conference, dwarfing, in their opinion, what a Georgetown and Nova would bring, especially with the departure of Syracuse (old rivalries). Why fold in the hoops-only schools to a conference that can become all-sports to match what the big four conferences do?

[QueensbridgeMF]

Post seems to think the football and non-football schools will eventually split

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/basketball/split_happens_v4ORm1LyqLJ6sVvqFxjy1J

[GoMuskies]

I think it's a close call on the hybrid for the Big Merged. Basketball is a BIG DEAL to Louisville and Kansas, and keeping Georgetown and Nova would certainly soften the blow of this for them with regards to basketball (especially when KU and Louisville get each other in the deal). They'd probably be able to convince ND to put their other sports in that league as well. On the other hand, they will see a clear example of the "failed hybrid" that just occurred with the Big East.

[GoMuskies]

Schools That Could End Up Nowhere By JARED DIAMOND

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/PJ-BC789_SP_COL_G_20110919185451.jpg

[xudash]

I don't see how it doesn't make sense. Between the Big 12 and the Big East, one conference survives and one conference collapses (or they both collapse now or down the road). It's not necessarily the Big East that will collapse right now, even with their hybrid system. The Big East seems to trying to survive at the expense of the Big 12, which is good strategy. Now, if KU and KSU turn down this offer, Big East football is done and the Big 12 could still survive.

It makes sense that they'll combine with certain BE members somehow, but the timing of the announcement and the fact that other Big XII schools aren't mentioned doesn't make sense.

So your ship is burning and may explode, but you decide right now to jump to another burning, possibly exploding ship?

The timing doesn't make sense. Kansas and K-State are waiting - they almost have to wait - to see what Texas and OU do in terms of staying or leaving to the PACxx.

What if Kansas and KSU left NOW, only to find that Texas and OU decided to stay in the Big XII?

[paulxu]

Count me among the old and tired that thought conferences should have some geographic sense.
I always thought if the SEC expanded they'd look to back fill in the states where they didn't have both schools like they do in Miss, Alabama, Tenn.
So, I thought they might add Louisville, Georgia Tech, Fla St and Clemson.
Well, the $20 million ACC buy-out kills that idea for the near future.

The NYTimes article indicates the BE trying to be the 5th conference, while everyone assumes if Conn/Rutgers go then the Big 12 will be the BCS survivor.

If the latter happens, and the BE is only left with basketball, what is the impact of their 27 month rule? Somehow 27 months has stretched to June 2014 (I can't figure out that math) but will that be cast aside and the new conferences begin play with their alignments earlier than that if 6 become 5...or even 4?

[XUFan09]

It makes sense that they'll combine with certain BE members somehow, but the timing of the announcement and the fact that other Big XII schools aren't mentioned doesn't make sense.

So your ship is burning and may explode, but you decide right now to jump to another burning, possibly exploding ship?

The timing doesn't make sense. Kansas and K-State are waiting - they almost have to wait - to see what Texas and OU do in terms of staying or leaving to the PACxx.

What if Kansas and KSU left NOW, only to find that Texas and OU decided to stay in the Big XII?

I was saying in made sense from the Big East perspective, since they're the ones doing the inviting.

[BBC 08]

UofL is fu%&ed, I think, which is too bad. If Louisville had only hired someone competent instead of Steve Klownthorpe...

Yeah, those 3 years hurt us.

[Founding Father]

The ACC WILL NOT pursue a hybrid format. It simply won't happen.

The same goes for the B1G, SEC, and PACxx.

The issue is whether the surviving, exhausted football leftovers from the BE and Big XII would be willing to entertain a hybrid at the point of coming together.

I don't believe they will.

Look at it, as just one example, from Kansas' point of view. Kansas, K-State and Mizzou, in particular, will bring a lot to the hoops side of the new conference, dwarfing, in their opinion, what a Georgetown and Nova would bring, especially with the departure of Syracuse (old rivalries). Why fold in the hoops-only schools to a conference that can become all-sports to match what the big four conferences do?

From the link I posted, it looks like Villanova was denied acceptance into the ACC but I don't think simply adding 2 bball only schools to get to 18 bball schools would be a "hybrid" conference like the current Big East. It is not going to happen though either way.

[muskienick]

Seriously, who did NOT see the breakup of the BE coming? Everyone with at least half a brain was calling it, with the split between the football and basketball, and the BE trying to add every team available in order to bolster their league stature while ignoring the fact that there was in conference teams pulling in different directions?

I LOVE IT. UC is clueless, with no leadership at the worst time possible, and their fans will still probably say they are in a better league. Ha, who is in the more stable conference? I put money on it that X sits in a better position than UC does right now with the conference alignment stuff...

I HATE dayton.

I called it early because I have half a brain. I never did understand what happened to the other half!

[LA Muskie]

Count me among the old and tired that thought conferences should have some geographic sense.
I always thought if the SEC expanded they'd look to back fill in the states where they didn't have both schools like they do in Miss, Alabama, Tenn.
So, I thought they might add Louisville, Georgia Tech, Fla St and Clemson.
Well, the $20 million ACC buy-out kills that idea for the near future.

The NYTimes article indicates the BE trying to be the 5th conference, while everyone assumes if Conn/Rutgers go then the Big 12 will be the BCS survivor.

If the latter happens, and the BE is only left with basketball, what is the impact of their 27 month rule? Somehow 27 months has stretched to June 2014 (I can't figure out that math) but will that be cast aside and the new conferences begin play with their alignments earlier than that if 6 become 5...or even 4?

27 months gets you to December 2013. That's after fall sports are done and after the start of winter sports. In other words, the assumptions that the switch would not start until the end of that academic year.

That said -- and I know what the BE has said -- there is no way Syracuse and Pitt wait until 2014 to join the ACC when the dust clears. It will not be in anyone's interest to drag this all out, once the realignment is charted out.

[muskienick]

The ACC could still invite the 4 I listed and play wait and see. New deals will have to be negotiated by the BCS and NCAA when these new conferences are formed. ND want to stay independent but according to the article above, if they are "forced" to join a football league, they prefer the ACC to the B10.

Even if the ACC does not invite ND for bball only, I can still see them adding just Villanova and Georgetown as bball only members along with full members UCONN and Rutgers.

The Big East has been on death-watch for 5 years or more due to its hybrid nature. Why would thew ACC want to recreate that situation by creating another hybrid situation. Also, why would Villanova and Georgetown want to subjugate themselves to Big Brother Football partners like that have been doing in the Big East. The only way I see this working for those two universities is if the join as Basketball members only with a promise to develop FBS/BCS Football programs over the next few years. (Villanova's already said "No!" to that suggestion by the Big East and Georgetown is even waaaaaaaay farther away from ever having an FBS/BCS program.

[Founding Father]

The Big East has been on death-watch for 5 years or more due to its hybrid nature. Why would thew ACC want to recreate that situation by creating another hybrid situation. Also, why would Villanova and Georgetown want to subjugate themselves to Big Brother Football partners like that have been doing in the Big East. The only way I see this working for those two universities is if the join as Basketball members only with a promise to develop FBS/BCS Football programs over the next few years. (Villanova's already said "No!" to that suggestion by the Big East and Georgetown is even waaaaaaaay farther away from ever having an FBS/BCS program.

Again it is not going to happen so there is really no point in discussing it since the ACC turned Villanova down but adding only two bball only schools is nothing like the current BE with 8 bball only schools. Obviously Villanova wanted to be in with their old BE mates or they would not have approached the ACC.

[xubrew]

We seem to have some sort of shake-up every seven years or so.

Not necessarily in chronological order.......

-Big Ten expansion
-the bowl coalition
-the collapse of the SWC
-Big East football
-Florida State football to the ACC
-a twelve team SEC
-the Big Twelve
-The Metro/GMW/CUSA musical chairs
-the BCS
-ACC/Big East/CUSA conference realignment
-Now, the superconferences.

That's just in my lifetime, and I'm pretty sure I'm leaving some things out. Every time, it was the end of college sports as we know it. Every five or six years we undergo something that is the end of college sports as we know it.

You know what, though?? At the end of the day, one thing was still pretty much the same. The major programs were still major programs, and the also-rans were still also-rans. It's been that way since the 1940s. The Bowl Coalition didn't change it. The BCS didn't change it. Conference realignment, which is really not a new phenomenon, has never changed it, and really won't change it this time either.

The "Haves" are still the "Haves."

My prediction is that once all the dust settles, a sense of normalcy will once again develop, and things really won't seem all that drastically different.

And in six years, we'll do it again. The next thing that will "forever change college sports as we know it" will be the fallout of the super conferences. They'll split apart and form eight or nine smaller conferences, and people will think that instead of four, we now have eight, and that since it has doubled in size there will be no more room for the "have nots."

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

McMurphyCBS Brett McMurphy

Multiple Big East sources said they have been told by WVU officials that WVU rejected by ACC & SEC

[GoMuskies]

McMurphyCBS Brett McMurphy

Multiple Big East sources said they have been told by WVU officials that WVU rejected by ACC & SEC

Bob Huggins always wanted to go back to C-USA.

[JTG]

The basketball only and some football schools model of the Big East will be dead in a few weeks. All of the new mega conferences are going to be all sports. Not some CF conglomeration like the Big East is now.

[chico]

Bob Huggins always wanted to go back to C-USA.

Of course if the AD would just listen to him they wouldn't be in this mess right now.

[MHettel]

I don't understand the sentence about them wanting the perception of being 4 major conferences for football and 5 for basketball. Why would all the football schools in the discussion be so concerned about being in a conference that is only considered big-time for basketball? .

There are going to be 4 major football conferences, and some teams will get frozen out. These teams will realize that their only chance to stay relevent at all is to focus on basketball. Therefore they will get an alliance with all the best basketball schools available and try to create a national perception that they belong in the discussion with the 4 "major" conferences when it comes to big time basketball. They have no chance in football, so the strategy is basketball focused.

[xubrew]

On the record.

-Texas, Ttech, Ok, OK State to Pac 10, taking them to 16.

-Missouri, KSU, Kansas and Iowa State to the Big 10, taking them to 16.

-UConn & Rutgers to ACC taking them to 16.

-WVU to SEC. SEC Sits at 14 teams.

Displaced: ND (by choice), UC, UofL, South Fla, TCU, BE BB only schools, Baylor.

Next:
The displaced teams with football (Less ND) realize they arent invited to the game and realize they will never be. So, they focus on putting together a Basketball centric conference (still has football) with as strong a basketball presence as they can muster up. They want the perception to be "4 major confernces for Football, 5 for basketball."

New Big East: (football- 8 teams) UC, UofL, Memphis, USF, TCU, Baylor, Temple, Charlotte, (Basketball- 12 teams) GTown, Villanova, St. Johns, ND, Depaul, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall, Xavier, Butler, St. Louis, Richmond.

General Football arrangement: Top 4 conferences have 2 divisions, declare division champs and then play a conference championship game. Coincidentally (or not) there are 4 major bowls (not called BCS anymore) with exactly 8 total positions which is EXACTLY the amount of teams that won a division! It's Winners vs Winners, Losers vs. losers in the 4 major bowls. Then winner vs. winner (new Bowl game, with superbowl level buildup) for the national championship.

Big East basketball Arrangement: remember their objective is to nose into the discussion as a top 5 basketball conference, so things that couldn't happen (like UC and XU in the same conference-) simply are in the realm of possibility. 2 10 team divisions, with unbalanced schedule. I think the max amount of conference games you can play is 18, so play 4 teams in your division home-and-home (8 games), play the reamining division teams once each (5 more games), then play 5 of the 10 teams in the other division once. Thats 18 games, and at minimum you play each team in the other divion at least every other year. Divisions are NOT based on geography.

Division #1- XU, UC, Villanova, Temple, Butler, TCU, ND, St. Louis, USF, SJU

Division #2- Marquette, GTown, Louisville, Memphis, Providence, Baylor, DePaul, charlotte, Seton Hall, Richmond.

Bank on it!

I am not banking on this scenario. I don't find it to be even remotely realistic.

Iowa State and West Virginia are also currently displaced, and Notre Dame's football team really isn't displaced since they aren't looking to join a league anyway.

The Big Ten will never accept Kansas State largely because of their academic classification and their overall research dollars. They would take Kansas, but since the board of regents for both Kansas and Kansas State consists of people on the state legislature, it's unlikely that a move would be approved that resulted in them separating from Kansas State. At the very least, K State to the Big Ten is not something that you can bank on. In all likelihood, K State and Kansas will continue to be displaced as well.

....but all that aside (and that's a lot to just set aside), the football schools would not want there to be twelve schools in the league who don't play football. The basketball conference you proposed would be a monster with or without Xavier, Richmond, Butler and SLU. When the Big East was at sixteen teams before, they never looked at swelling out to twenty teams. I don't see why they'd look to do that now.

[POLLYANNA]

The topic starter has a source he says is involved in the day to day operation of Xavier basketball, informing him that the two Kansas schools are joining the Big East.
Free advice: Get a new "reliable source."
Here is the reality, from media types in the Big 12 area.
1) Texas, Texas Tech. Oklahoma, and Oklahoma State are finalizing their entrance into the Pac 12. Done! Proof is the Board of Regents at Texas and Oklahoma have given their Presidents full authority to "do what is best." Fact: Oklahoma cannot go with out Oklahoma State, nor can Texas go without Texas Tech (State Legs, ya know)
2) The two Kansas schools are not "joining" the Big East. They will be part of the merger of the four orphans (Iowa State and Baylor the other two). Those four will bring aboard Louisville, Cincinnati, Houston, TCU, West Virginia, and Memphis to form a ten team "Big 12" and retain their BCS slot.
3) Missouri will join the SEC. They (the SEC) need one member to be at 14. WVa would love to be that entry, but $$$ dictate it will be Missouri (St Louis and Kansas City TV market and a state population of six million top Huntington, Morgantown, and Charleston and the rest of the hills and valleys by millions.
4) UConn, Rutgers, will be the 15th and 16th teams in the ACC.
5) So, the Big East is left with eight members, all of whom are basketball only. That is where teams join up, and the only question is what number of schools does the Big East want to be at? I think, since for a long time they themselves have mumbled about sixteen being too many, the number will be 12 or 14, the former being the best operative number from a scheduling standout.
6) That brings us to who gets an admission ticket. Xavier and Butler will be the first two choices and unambitiously approved.
7. Who else? Dayton thinks they are "automatic" and that ain't so. The Big East will opt for UMass and URI first (they offset the mid-west Xavier-Butler factor). Charlotte will want to join, but the Big East knows well that it is just a matter of time before Charlotte jumps elsewhere with its new D-1 football program.
8) The Big Ten, smug as it can be, will now regret not getting Rutgers and Missouri in their next go-round with the TV people (numbers matter and the ACC ate 'em up.)
9) I sure hope everything develops as I think ... and that Dayton gets left out of the new Big East. They'll whine and cry, but it will be sweet revenge to say adios just like they screwed us when they jumped to the Great Midwest and in essence killed the MCC.

[Masterofreality]

McMurphyCBS Brett McMurphy

Multiple Big East sources said they have been told by WVU officials that WVU rejected by ACC & SEC

Even more multiples of sources stated that both the ACC and SEC have permanent bans on basketball coaches who puke on cars after being stopped by the police.

[GoMuskies]

Even more multiples of sources stated that both the ACC and SEC have permanent bans on basketball coaches who puke on cars after being stopped by the police.

The SEC probably needs to delve into Andy Kennedy's history a little further, then.

This rule did, in fact, keep Phil Ford out of the UNC job.

It's also why Eddie Sutton had to leave Kentucky.

[Masterofreality]

They will have more schools with football teams, but not more full members. The Big Twelve is much more likely to dissolve than the Big East.

Totally disagree. This is all about football. "Full members" in basketball have no standing.

There will be no hybrid in a new Big 12. SucKS, SFLA and Louisville are Big Greased johnny come latelies with no affinity to the all basketball schools. UCon, Rutgers, and eventually WVA will be elsewhere. It's over Johnny. It's over.

There will be a Big East, but in name only and with basketball as the key sport. UMass, 'Nova, East Carolina, Temple and Charlotte football ain't rescuing that.

[waggy]

The problem the hybrid is facing right now, is determining whether any media is willing (or what they are willing) to pay for it. It seems everyone has to get on the phone with ESPN first. Ultimately, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they actually decide what comes out this.

[Founding Father]

2) The two Kansas schools are not "joining" the Big East. They will be part of the merger of the four orphans (Iowa State and Baylor the other two). Those four will bring aboard Louisville, Cincinnati, Houston, TCU, West Virginia, and Memphis to form a ten team "Big 12" and retain their BCS slot.


If I were in the Big XII I would look to add these schools: TCU, BYU, WVU, Louisville, Houston and Boise St. before adding UC. You could even throw Temple into the mix as well before UC if you go "east"

Not sure this league gets a BCS bid even if they "deserve" it. The current Big East has one and they clearly don't deserve it.

[GoMuskies]

The current Big East has one and they clearly don't deserve it.

Depends on how you define "deserve". The Big East has been plenty strong on the field to justify it (though not last year or this year).

[Founding Father]

Depends on how you define "deserve". The Big East has been plenty strong on the field to justify it (though not last year or this year).

I think only conferences that have programs with a legit chance to send a team to win a national title should have a BCS bid. The current BE is just a renamed CUSA with no national powers.

[MuskieMusk10]

http://twitter.com/#!/McMurphyCBS/status/116175835815350272

[GoMuskies]

I think only conferences that have programs with a legit chance to send a team to win a national title should have a BCS bid. The current BE is just a renamed CUSA with no national powers.

Louisville would have gone in '06 if they beat Rutgers, and WV would have gone in '07 if they beat Pitt (in other words, both had very "legit chances" of going to a title game). That's closer than any ACC team has been in quite awhile. Does the ACC deserve a BCS bid?

[pickledpigsfeet]

I am not banking on this scenario. I don't find it to be even remotely realistic.

Iowa State and West Virginia are also currently displaced, and Notre Dame's football team really isn't displaced since they aren't looking to join a league anyway.

The Big Ten will never accept Kansas State largely because of their academic classification and their overall research dollars. They would take Kansas, but since the board of regents for both Kansas and Kansas State consists of people on the state legislature, it's unlikely that a move would be approved that resulted in them separating from Kansas State. At the very least, K State to the Big Ten is not something that you can bank on. In all likelihood, K State and Kansas will continue to be displaced as well.


I agree that I just can't see K St. or Iowa St. being invited to the Big 10, just too many things they have against the current model of a Big 10 (12) school.

I keep hearing that there are some behind the scenes discussions, although few report on it in any depth that the Big 10 is still talking to Texas and Oklahoma and if they come, it would likely be Missouri and possibly Notre Dame to join them, if ND will get over themselves and join a conference.

[Founding Father]

Louisville would have gone in '06 if they beat Rutgers, and WV would have gone in '07 if they beat Pitt (in other words, both had very "legit chances" of going to a title game). That's closer than any ACC team has been in quite awhile. Does the ACC deserve a BCS bid?

UC almost went as well but they had no legit chance of winning it. Florida showed us that.

The BE has no legit football powers. Because they were granted a BCS bid, they can conceivably make the title game by beating UCONN and Rutgers, etc. and we all know that means very little.

The ACC at least has FSU and Miami as big time powers. The best the BE can claim is WVU.

The BE was lucky they retained their BCS bid when they lost their true power teams and became CUSA with a different name.

[waggy]

I keep hearing that there are some behind the scenes discussions, although few report on it in any depth that the Big 10 is still talking to Texas and Oklahoma and if they come, it would likely be Missouri and possibly Notre Dame to join them, if ND will get over themselves and join a conference.

What a conference that would be.

[GoMuskies]

Louisville was every bit as good as the Ohio State team they would have played in '06 (who Florida treated about as rudely as they treated UC).

If you go by any measure of on-field performance, there's basically no justification over the past 6 years (since USF, Louisville and UC joined) to keep the Big East out of the BCS.

[Muskie1000]

oh I easily suspect this will be over 100 pages by days end...

[Founding Father]

Louisville was every bit as good as the Ohio State team they would have played in '06 (who Florida treated about as rudely as they treated UC).

If you go by any measure of on-field performance, there's basically no justification over the past 6 years (since USF, Louisville and UC joined) to keep the Big East out of the BCS.

BE football sucks. I know you don't want to hear it but the other true BCS conferences know it. There has not been one team in the BE since the ACC raided them the last time that would have won a national title.

It's obvious that I am not going to convince you of this and it does not really matter now as BE football is almost dead.

[GoMuskies]

All I asked was for a single on-field performance indicator that would suggest the Big East doesn't belong in the BCS. You clearly cannot come up with any other than "the Big East sucks". The Big East certainly has not been the worst BCS football conference since the ACC raided in '04. It's basically a statistical fact.

[BBC 08]

Can a BE football fan rep Go for me since the man is holding me down?

If Louisville wasn't down during the Kragthorpe years we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Founding Father]

All I asked was for a single on-field performance indicator that would suggest the Big East doesn't belong in the BCS. You clearly cannot come up with any other than "the Big East sucks". The Big East certainly has not been the worst BCS football conference since the ACC raided in '04. It's basically a statistical fact.

I've watched plenty of Big East football and their programs are not big time football. They have not produced one team capable of winning a national title since they lost Miami and VTech.

Again, you can believe otherwise if you like but the current BE football has 0 national titles and 0 teams capable of winning a title.

[GoMuskies]

And how many such teams have come out of the ACC in the same period? At least the Big East can say they were one play away from having a team in the title game twice during that span (teams that went on to win BCS games over the ACC and Big XII champs by the by).

[waggy]

Someone take the last word, and then end the debate.

On topic: It makes sense that Kansas is a pivot point, since they will be the most significant program remaining after the others depart. Whatever they decide, the remaining B12 programs will follow.

[XUglow]

bmarcello Brandon Marcello
RT @sptwri: Story going up momentarily at Kansascity.com that Missouri has offer from SEC but SEC is willing to wait on implosion of Big 12

I guess this is why WVU was told to sit tight. There will need to be a #16 for them to be considered, I guess.

[GoMuskies]

Someone take the last word, and then end the debate.


Founding Father, if you can come up with your first argument here supported by any actual facts, I'm happy to let your completely wrong side of this have the last word.

[Founding Father]

And how many such teams have come out of the ACC in the same period? At least the Big East can say they were one play away from having a team in the title game twice during that span (teams that went on to win BCS games over the ACC and Big XII champs by the by).

I never said the ACC should have a bid or not. Just talking about the current BE. The current ACC at least has program that can win national titles. The ACC took the best football team from the BE and the BE replaced them with CUSA teams.

[Founding Father]

Back to the topic and edited to make gomuskies happy:

If I were in the Big XII I would look to add these schools: TCU, BYU, WVU, Louisville, Houston and Boise St. before adding UC. You could even throw Temple into the mix as well before UC if you go "east"

[waggy]

Missouri has offer from SEC but SEC is willing to wait

I doubt Missouri is. :D

You offered, no, I distinctly heard you offered...

[GoMuskies]

Would that be the program that lost to JMU last year and then ran the ACC ragged? C'mon, just one factual argument. One.

[GoMuskies]

Temple would sort of be off on an island in that league. If you're going to have a team off on an island, I don't think you want it to be Temple.

[Founding Father]

Would that be the program that lost to JMU last year and then ran the ACC ragged? C'mon, just one factual argument. One.

This is my last on this:

How many National Titles has the current BE conference won?

How many have they played in?

It is just my opinion that the current BE never deserved a BCS bid. It became CUSA with a different name when they added a bunch of CUSA teams and UCONN with its infant football program.

[Founding Father]

bmarcello Brandon Marcello
RT @sptwri: Story going up momentarily at Kansascity.com that Missouri has offer from SEC but SEC is willing to wait on implosion of Big 12

I guess this is why WVU was told to sit tight. There will need to be a #16 for them to be considered, I guess.

Who would be #15?

A&M is #13
Missouri #14

_______#15
WVU #16

[GoMuskies]

I can give you some old C-USA vs. new Big East computer numbers if you like. It's not particularly close. At all.

[BBC 08]

FF, are we just going to ignore the 2006 Orange Bowl?

[BBC 08]

Supposedly the SEC wants Louisville but UK is saying no: http://t.co/yQ0jtEZh

[GoMuskies]

Supposedly the SEC wants Louisville but UK is saying no: http://t.co/yQ0jtEZh

That...would...make....me....very....angry.

[XUglow]

Who would be #15?

A&M is #13
Missouri #14

_______#15
WVU #16

I have no idea. I do know that WVU doesn't seem to be a very popular choice under any circumstances.

[waggy]

I can't believe the SEC would rather have only one institution per state, but make the exception for the state of kentucky.

Unless UK is on someone elses radar...

[paulxu]

Supposedly the SEC wants Louisville but UK is saying no: http://t.co/yQ0jtEZh

Part of my old pipe dream.

Edit: then I go read the link and it's talking about Louisville a possibility if they expand to 16 with the consideration of Clemson and FSU. Guess a $20 million buy-out is no big deal

[Giacomazzi]

Again, the SEC REALLY wants Oklahoma.

But once the mass exodus happens to the Pac 16, Missouri might be willing to come to the SEC. And if they're not, then West Virginia should get in.

[paulxu]

I can't believe the SEC would rather have only one institution per state, but make the exception for the state of kentucky.

Unless UK is on someone elses radar...

Wags, what does that mean? The SEC has a number of states with 2 schools.

[xubrew]

I agree that I just can't see K St. or Iowa St. being invited to the Big 10, just too many things they have against the current model of a Big 10 (12) school.

I keep hearing that there are some behind the scenes discussions, although few report on it in any depth that the Big 10 is still talking to Texas and Oklahoma and if they come, it would likely be Missouri and possibly Notre Dame to join them, if ND will get over themselves and join a conference.

I don't like Notre Dame, but I think they may be the smartest guy in the room. Everyone else seems to think that if you don't have sixteen, you're too small. Nevermind the fact that for a hundred years not having sixteen worked out just fine.

Notre Dame is showing that you don't need sixteen. You don't even need two.

[xubrew]

Wags, what does that mean? The SEC has a number of states with 2 schools.

they have a number of states with two teams that are already in the conference. Current members have veto power of schools that are in the same state who are not members.

[waggy]

Wags, what does that mean? The SEC has a number of states with 2 schools.

You are correct. I thought I read that the SEC preference for any future expansion involved "new territories". But I guess like 99% of what you read on this issue, take it with a spoonful of salt.

[LA Muskie]

You are correct. I thought I read that the SEC preference for any future expansion involved "new territories". But I guess like 99% of what you read on this issue, take it with a spoonful of salt.
You did read that. And you're right that, with everything in this mess, who knows whether it's true or not?

[xubrew]

Totally disagree. This is all about football. "Full members" in basketball have no standing.

There will be no hybrid in a new Big 12. SucKS, SFLA and Louisville are Big Greased johnny come latelies with no affinity to the all basketball schools. UCon, Rutgers, and eventually WVA will be elsewhere. It's over Johnny. It's over.

There will be a Big East, but in name only and with basketball as the key sport. UMass, 'Nova, East Carolina, Temple and Charlotte football ain't rescuing that.

MOR, it's not all about football to schools who don't have football teams, yet still have a vote like the Big East basketball schools do. They played a very big role the last time around, and will do so again.

It's more about media markets and TV contracts than anything else. The ACC did not go after Syracuse and Pitt because of their stellar football teams.

[XUglow]

Apparently Mizzou "leaked" the SEC invite information to try and smoke out an offer from the Big Ten as an option.

[Founding Father]

Apparently Mizzou "leaked" the SEC invite information to try and smoke out an offer from the Big Ten as an option.

I can see why Mizzu would prefer the B10 but the B10 would probably then have to add in team #14 if they invited Mizzu and if the reports are correct that ND would only be interested in joining the ACC if forced to join a conference, who is team #14?

[muskiefan82]

I can't believe the SEC would rather have only one institution per state, but make the exception for the state of kentucky.

Unless UK is on someone elses radar...

Ummmm.......Auburn and Alabama seem to occupy the same state. So do Vanderbilt and Tennessee. Oh, and Mississippi and Mississippi State. I don't think the SEC cares about multiple teams from the same state.

[waggy]

I just want the hybrid to die. While I would prefer to be aligned with the better programs of the BE, I don't think it's that big of a deal if they don't at that point, because I believe the X brand and program are good enough to continue it's success in the A10.

[waggy]

if the reports are correct that ND would only be interested in joining the ACC if forced to join a conference, who is team #14?

I doubt this is really true. The ND AD's quotes upon learning about Syracuse and Pitt to the ACC didn't sound like he was too pleased about it. And in addition to being a better geographical fit, the B10 would mean more dollars too.

[waggy]

Ummmm.......Auburn and Alabama seem to occupy the same state. So do Vanderbilt and Tennessee. Oh, and Mississippi and Mississippi State. I don't think the SEC cares about multiple teams from the same state.

This has been covered.

[LA Muskie]

Ummmm.......Auburn and Alabama seem to occupy the same state. So do Vanderbilt and Tennessee. Oh, and Mississippi and Mississippi State. I don't think the SEC cares about multiple teams from the same state.
They didn't used to care. They care now. And by "they" we really mean the potential in-state competition (i.e., Kentucky, South Carolina, Florida). That said, if the conference goes to 16 those card-carrying schools may well have to grin and bear it.

[LA Muskie]

MOR, it's not all about football to schools who don't have football teams, yet still have a vote like the Big East basketball schools do. They played a very big role the last time around, and will do so again.

It's more about media markets and TV contracts than anything else. The ACC did not go after Syracuse and Pitt because of their stellar football teams.
Well, yes and no. The media money is because of football, not basketball. That's not to say there isn't a share of the spend on basketball, but the real money is paid for the right to broadcast the football games.

As for Syracuse and Pitt, despite their recent results both have programs with a history of success, both have maintained their fan-bases to a large extent, and both bring relatively large media markets. PLUS they are stellar basketball programs added to a conference that probably makes a greater proportionate share of its media money from basketball (but still less so than football).

Syracuse and Pitt were perfect additions to the ACC. And what I like most about the ACC is that it knows what it is, and what it is not. It won't ever be the #1 football conference, but it will be in play. And that basketball league. Wow. Just wow. Adding Syracuse and Pitt (and likely UConn) to that mix? Down the road, they could probably make PPV channel for in-conference games (much like the NFL Sunday Ticket) and make a killing. I'd watch those conference games over just about anything else.

[X-man]

I do think that both Pitt and Syracuse will have to modify their style of play. The ACC has always played a much more refined, and far less physical, brand of basketball than the BE.

[Aughnanure]

I can see why Mizzu would prefer the B10 but the B10 would probably then have to add in team #14 if they invited Mizzu and if the reports are correct that ND would only be interested in joining the ACC if forced to join a conference, who is team #14?

Kansas? It fits their footprint and academic standards, plus if they value the "brand" like the did Nebraska football, Kansas basketball should be worth it. This can develop into an Indiana-Kansas rivalry that could, in theory, rival UNC-Duke.

[Founding Father]

Kansas? It fits their footprint and academic standards, plus if they value the "brand" like the did Nebraska football, Kansas basketball should be worth it. This can develop into an Indiana-Kansas rivalry that could, in theory, rival UNC-Duke.

Kansas football is not very attractive.

[XUglow]

Kansas football is not very attractive.

Kathy Bates is more attractive than Kansas football.

[GoMuskies]

Georgia Tech found their defense VERY attractive.

[GoMuskies]

I do think that both Pitt and Syracuse will have to modify their style of play. The ACC has always played a much more refined, and far less physical, brand of basketball than the BE.

Maybe the ACC teams will have to modify their style of play to match Pitt and 'Cuse.

[pizza delivery]

Well, yes and no. The media money is because of football, not basketball. That's not to say there isn't a share of the spend on basketball, but the real money is paid for the right to broadcast the football games.

As for Syracuse and Pitt, despite their recent results both have programs with a history of success, both have maintained their fan-bases to a large extent, and both bring relatively large media markets. PLUS they are stellar basketball programs added to a conference that probably makes a greater proportionate share of its media money from basketball (but still less so than football).

Syracuse and Pitt were perfect additions to the ACC. And what I like most about the ACC is that it knows what it is, and what it is not. It won't ever be the #1 football conference, but it will be in play. And that basketball league. Wow. Just wow. Adding Syracuse and Pitt (and likely UConn) to that mix? Down the road, they could probably make PPV channel for in-conference games (much like the NFL Sunday Ticket) and make a killing. I'd watch those conference games over just about anything else.

We all think the Big East euphoria was hard to stand, get ready for the new beast, the ACC. Vitale may be running the universe somehow, as adding Syracuse and Uconn to the ACC is a dream come true.

[paulxu]

What's the ideal size if we did end up in a re-shuffled BE?

I know 9 sounds good to play everybody twice. 12 sounds good with 2 divisions, play your guys twice, the others once.

But if football driven conferences like the ACC get to 16, does that become the ideal size for a basketball only conference...TV time, markets, etc.?

[waggy]

What's the ideal size if we did end up in a re-shuffled BE?

I know 9 sounds good to play everybody twice. 12 sounds good with 2 divisions, play your guys twice, the others once.

But if football driven conferences like the ACC get to 16, does that become the ideal size for a basketball only conference...TV time, markets, etc.?

Personally I like 12, but regardless the number the real answer is that the conference has to win it's out of conference games at a clip of at least 70%. So if you are starting completely from scratch you need programs that can bring home the OOC wins.

[paulxu]

Personally I like 12, but regardless the number the real answer is that the conference has to win it's out of conference games at a clip of at least 70%. So if you are starting completely from scratch you need programs that can bring home the OOC wins.

I think I want a supposition of OOC strength for that requirement...or else we'll end up in a conference with UC.

[whitesox]

I don't like Notre Dame, but I think they may be the smartest guy in the room. Everyone else seems to think that if you don't have sixteen, you're too small. Nevermind the fact that for a hundred years not having sixteen worked out just fine.

Notre Dame is showing that you don't need sixteen. You don't even need two.

Agreed.

Every conference would welcome ND, but they don't have to join any conference (at least right now). They're in a pretty strong position.

[waggy]

I think I want a supposition of OOC strength for that requirement...or else we'll end up in a conference with UC.

At the end of the day though, the win is most important, because that forms the foundation of the future "SOS". It's just the way it is. Basically.

[paulxu]

NYTImes guy that broke the Syr/Pitt story has tweeted a report where OU is willing to stay in Big 12 if changes made...new commissioner, Texas backing up on the LHN, etc.

http://newsok.com/article/3605958

What fun!!

[GoMuskies]

Can Louisville and WV still join?