Conference carousel to start spinning again?

[GoMuskies]

I assume you mean St. Mary's College of the WCC and not Southern Methodist University of the....ACC. Yeah, that actually happened.

[MHettel]

I assume you mean St. Mary's College of the WCC and not Southern Methodist University of the....ACC. Yeah, that actually happened.

Don’t rule it out!

(Yeah, st. Mary’s)

[bjf123]

By definition, Hawaii belongs in the Pac-12. Just sayin’.


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[muskiefan82]

By definition, Hawaii belongs in the Pac-12. Just sayin’.


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So you are saying they are bound for the Atlantic Coast Conference?

[bjf123]

So you are saying they are bound for the Atlantic Coast Conference?

Why not! If west coast teams can be in the Big 10, put the Rainbow Warriors in the ACC. They can replace Miami or FSU if they get out somehow.


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[muskiefan82]

If St. Mary's and Gonzaga leave the WCC for the PAC-12, I want Pacific to join the Atlantic Coast Conference in basketball. Just for fun.

[Xville]

So in other words, fsu and Clemson finally realized there was nowhere for them to go. No one wants them.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/41307506/acc-clemson-florida-state-renew-discussions-revenue-distribution-model

[xubrew]

So in other words, fsu and Clemson finally realized there was nowhere for them to go. No one wants them.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/41307506/acc-clemson-florida-state-renew-discussions-revenue-distribution-model

The (attempted) revamped Pac 12 has shown some interest. I wish I was kidding. I'm not.

[GoMuskies]

If done thoughtfully, this Pac-2 has a chance to be a nice "best of the rest" league. They seem to have already extracted most of the best of the MWC (maybe UNLV and New Mexico would still make sense for them), and now they seem to be picking the bones of what used to be the AAC for its top remaining programs. Could give those better programs a chance to bond together and get away from some of the rif raff. A clear step down for Oregon State and Wazzu, but a nice step up for the rest of them if done correctly.

Separately, Wichita State may need to go to the MVC and beg their way back in. The AAC was a nice idea for them when they were riding high under Gregg Marshall and the AAC still had Cincinnati, Central Florida and Houston. But those guys are gone, and now Memphis and Tulane appear to be following them out the door. They had something going and took their shot. They can't really be blamed for that, and they'd still make the MVC better by going back in (and would like regain some identity as a program and improve themselves). I guess the A-10 would also be an option, too, but other than St. Louis sitting 7 hours away, there's no member remotely close to Wichita. It's clear to me that the AAC is definitely NOT the right fit anymore.

[X-band '01]

Memphis, Tulane, South Florida and UT-San Antonio are turning down the revamped Pac-12 to stay in the American.

Meanwhile, other Mountain West schools are basically deciding whether or not to remain loyal and renew their grant of rights. Also hearing that Gonzaga will be joining the Pac-12 and get a full share of revenue even without football.

[X-band '01]

I would also have to think that Hawai'i and UNLV now become primary targets for the Pac-N. Utah State and New Mexico would likely be next in line.

[xubrew]

The PAC 12 should go after Hawaii and UConn as football only members. Those two belong in the same conference!!

[XUGRAD80]

I would also have to think that Hawai'i and UNLV now become primary targets for the Pac-N. Utah State and New Mexico would likely be next in line.

Utah St has accepted an offer to join the PAC

[Xville]

Interesting that Air Force and unlv had pledged to stay in the mountain west for bigger payouts, but now that’s blown up. I assume we will see that unlv accept their pac invitation in a few days.

[xubrew]

Memphis, Tulane, South Florida and UT-San Antonio are turning down the revamped Pac-12 to stay in the American.

Meanwhile, other Mountain West schools are basically deciding whether or not to remain loyal and renew their grant of rights. Also hearing that Gonzaga will be joining the Pac-12 and get a full share of revenue even without football.

Someone must have told them Larry Scott was returning along with the Pac 12. If that's the case, then I don't blame them!

[MHettel]

This is a whole new level of cutthroat at this point.

The MWC could have just ignored the PAC 2 last year and instead decided to save their asses by offering a scheduling agreement. In that Agreement, the MWC locked up an "anti-poaching" clause which I guess made sense. But Frankly the Pac 2 had no path forward. If they wanted to remain, they would need to pick up 6 teams. Didnt the MWC see realize that they would be the target of Pac 2 expansion? They could have let them starve to death with no football opponents.

Then recently, they start discussing "in good faith" the extension of the football scheduling deal. And then the next thing you know, 4 teams jump ship. So why would these teams do that? they KNOW that it takes 8 teams to be a conference. Why jump ship without some assurances? And how did the Pac 2 have these targeted discussions with 4 members of the MWC without arising suspicions of the others? Presumably, assurances were given to Boise et al that there were other members-to-be lined up for the Pac 12.

Then Memphis and some other garbage from the AAC were rumored. But the AAC squashed that. then Air Force was being courted by the AAC. Then it looked like the MWC was going to stick together, but Utah State (of all teams) defected to the Pac 2. My guess is that the Pac 2 wasnt even talking to Utah State, but Utah State realized they would get left behind in a mortally wounded MWC if they did nothing so they approached the Pac 2 and asked to join knowing that the Pac 2 would see that as a death blow to the MWC and would kill their alliance. UNLV is now freed up and looking around for options.

I can IMAGINE how many promises and assurances have been broken. This is like Mafia warfare.

Usually these types of decisions are fully analyzed and methodically decided upon. I assume each University Board has simply delegated the responsibility to make snap decisions to the President and AD. One minute a team is pledging allegence to their existing conference and later that day they are accepted into a different conference.

Absolute CHAOS. I see the Pac 2 grabbing Gonzaga and St Marys (as reported), and then UNLV will commit. Thats all they need (8). Would they make a run at Cal and Stanford? Is Hawaii in the mix (great for TV because all their home games are on at a time when there are no other games and lord knows that the gamblers LOVE to bet on everything)...

[GoMuskies]

Cal and Stanford aren't going back to that unless and until the ACC explodes. And there's zero chance the Pac-2/6/7 is interested in Hawaii.

[xubrew]

This is a whole new level of cutthroat at this point.

The MWC could have just ignored the PAC 2 last year and instead decided to save their asses by offering a scheduling agreement. In that Agreement, the MWC locked up an "anti-poaching" clause which I guess made sense. But Frankly the Pac 2 had no path forward. If they wanted to remain, they would need to pick up 6 teams. Didnt the MWC see realize that they would be the target of Pac 2 expansion? They could have let them starve to death with no football opponents.

Then recently, they start discussing "in good faith" the extension of the football scheduling deal. And then the next thing you know, 4 teams jump ship. So why would these teams do that? they KNOW that it takes 8 teams to be a conference. Why jump ship without some assurances? And how did the Pac 2 have these targeted discussions with 4 members of the MWC without arising suspicions of the others? Presumably, assurances were given to Boise et al that there were other members-to-be lined up for the Pac 12.

Then Memphis and some other garbage from the AAC were rumored. But the AAC squashed that. then Air Force was being courted by the AAC. Then it looked like the MWC was going to stick together, but Utah State (of all teams) defected to the Pac 2. My guess is that the Pac 2 wasnt even talking to Utah State, but Utah State realized they would get left behind in a mortally wounded MWC if they did nothing so they approached the Pac 2 and asked to join knowing that the Pac 2 would see that as a death blow to the MWC and would kill their alliance. UNLV is now freed up and looking around for options.

I can IMAGINE how many promises and assurances have been broken. This is like Mafia warfare.

Usually these types of decisions are fully analyzed and methodically decided upon. I assume each University Board has simply delegated the responsibility to make snap decisions to the President and AD. One minute a team is pledging allegence to their existing conference and later that day they are accepted into a different conference.

Absolute CHAOS. I see the Pac 2 grabbing Gonzaga and St Marys (as reported), and then UNLV will commit. Thats all they need (8). Would they make a run at Cal and Stanford? Is Hawaii in the mix (great for TV because all their home games are on at a time when there are no other games and lord knows that the gamblers LOVE to bet on everything)...

In regards to the sentence that's in bold...

You're joking...right??

[waggy]

Memphis, according to three people close to the discussions, had actually engaged the Big East last week to explore the possibility of joining in basketball and other sports while going to the Pac-12 in football only. But given the quick timeframe, concerns about fit from the Big East side (the league is all private Catholic schools except UConn) and the lack of certainty about Pac-12 money, Memphis had little choice but to recommit to the AAC for now.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/dan-wolken/2024/09/23/pac-12-conference-realignment-aac/75354941007/

[MHettel]

In regards to the sentence that's in bold...

You're joking...right??

I dont get it. Look at the process that Uconn has gone through over an extended period of time trying to get into the B12. And they went so far as to take a vote. Usually if you clearly dont have the votes, then no vote is taken. The fact that they voted and barely missed speaks to the analysis that was done.

what am I missing?

[waggy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GYRj6dWWYAA0-Ak?format=png&name=small

[xubrew]

I dont get it. Look at the process that Uconn has gone through over an extended period of time trying to get into the B12. And they went so far as to take a vote. Usually if you clearly dont have the votes, then no vote is taken. The fact that they voted and barely missed speaks to the analysis that was done.

what am I missing?

I think the biggest thing you’re missing is that it was (for the most part) a tongue-in-cheek comment.

Generally speaking, I think most decisions that are made, especially including those that involve realignment, are poorly and inadequately analyzed to the point to where you wonder if anyone did any actual analysis at all. What’s happening with the PAC 12/2 and MWC may be an even more extreme example than what we normally see, but I don’t have a lot of confidence that the people who make these decisions fully and methodically analyze much of anything. Many of these people are some of the same yo-yos that want a 96 team NCAA Tournament.

[xubrew]

Apparently now Sac State is reaching out to the Pac 12. This is just getting both more sad and more hilarious!!

Everyone could have saved themselves a lot of money and stress had Oregon State and Wazzu just joined the Mountain West as full members. They still owned the rights to the Pac 12. They could have rebranded it the Pac 12 if they really wanted to. Instead, we will end up with two separate conferences, neither of which will be as good as the merged P12/MWC would have likely been.

[X-band '01]

In some ways, it's good that Bill Walton passed away before the Pac-12 became a "truck stop" conference that he always loved to call the mid-major programs. He never got to be a celebrity in locales like Bloomington and Minneapolis in the B1G.

[paulxu]

Zags to the Pac-whatever.

[xubrew]

The Mountain West is now in talks with Tarlton State.

We have now officially reached the 'Tarlton State Phase' of realignment! When you reach this stage, you need to acknowledge that without the interest being generated in college sports from online gambling, there would be virtually no interest at all.

[muskiefan82]

What is a Tarlton? And why do they have a state?

[xubrew]

I'm hearing rumors that the Ivy League has no plans for expansion.

[GoMuskies]

Tarleton is on the list with Stephen F Austin, Houston Baptist, Texas State and UTSA for me as Texas schools with some potential. Probably one of them will "hit", but hard to know which one.

[xubrew]

Tarleton is on the list with Stephen F Austin, Houston Baptist, Texas State and UTSA for me as Texas schools with some potential. Probably one of them will "hit", but hard to know which one.

I agree with three out of those four. Tarlton State actually is putting a lot into athletics, and they do have potential in both football and basketball.

Houston Baptist??? As great as their alternate uniforms are, and as much as I love the massiveness of their arena (both of which are on display in the link below), I can't say I agree that they have any real potential at all...

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/01/the-houston-baptist-basketball-team-wore-hideous-throwback-jerseys

[JTG]

Tarleton is on the list with Stephen F Austin, Houston Baptist, Texas State and UTSA for me as Texas schools with some potential. Probably one of them will "hit", but hard to know which one.

None of those schools are going to hit anything but a brick wall. No one, aside from friends and family give a flying shit about any of those schools

[xubrew]

None of those schools are going to hit anything but a brick wall. No one, aside from friends and family give a flying shit about any of those schools

Three of those schools actually draw pretty well. Not by P4 standards, but certainly by FCS standards and perhaps even G5 standards. UTSA plays in the Alamo Dome, and they actually have a following (although their basketball is shit). SFA has had some really good basketball teams. Texas State is starting to put more into athletics. And Houston Baptist....okay, they are bad even by Southland Standards and would absolutely hit a brick wall.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Tartleston State's coach is Billy Gillispie. He is on his redemption run. I got to see them live play ASU and he is getting the most from what talent he has.

[xubrew]

I just want to say that I was very excited that we got to talk about Tarlton State, Texas State, UTSA, and Houston Baptist (who BTW is now Houston Christian).

[GoMuskies]

I just want to say that I was very excited that we got to talk about Tarlton State, Texas State, UTSA, and Houston Baptist (who BTW is now Houston Christian).

You're welcome!

[X-band '01]

I'm hearing rumors that the Ivy League has no plans for expansion.

Sometime The Onion will report that the Ivy League is in talks with Howard to expand into the DC area. And former soccer official Jack Warner will believe it full stop.

[noteggs]

I agree with three out of those four. Tarlton State actually is putting a lot into athletics, and they do have potential in both football and basketball.

Houston Baptist??? As great as their alternate uniforms are, and as much as I love the massiveness of their arena (both of which are on display in the link below), I can't say I agree that they have any real potential at all...

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/01/the-houston-baptist-basketball-team-wore-hideous-throwback-jerseys

Good gawd, those unis are so bad even in 70’s standards!

[MHettel]

I just want to say that I was very excited that we got to talk about Tarlton State, Texas State, UTSA, and Houston Baptist (who BTW is now Houston Christian).

You’ve probably been to hundreds of their games…

[xubrew]

Good gawd, those unis are so bad even in 70’s standards!

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!!!! THESE ARE THE BEST UNIFORMS IN THE HISTORY OF THE SPORT!!!!

I think they still wear them at least once a year.

[xubrew]

You’ve probably been to hundreds of their games…

Give or take. (Not really, but I do know people who do go to hundreds of their games a year)..

UTSA is hosting the Final Four this year. So the people I know that do go to hundreds of their games a year will have the two FF games and the championship game added to their list of games this year.

[xubrew]

Zags to the Pac-whatever.

So I think we need to talk about the real reason Gonzaga is leaving....

For seemingly forever, they've made it known that they did not want Seattle U in the WCC. Then, the other schools finally decided to vote them in anyway (along with Grand Canyon), and shortly after that happened, Gonzaga decided to leave.

Coincidence?? I THINK NOT!!!

If you are unaware of Seattle U's basketball program, they play in a very small arena, and they have a very obnoxiously large...ummm...statue? (I guess?) of what I think is a Red Hawk inside of it. This has fascinated myself and some friends of mine for years!! LOOK at this thing!!!

https://seattlespectator.com/2022/01/26/redhawks-basketball-winning-as-family/

And we have all kinds of theories as to how this came to be. For starters, there's NO WAY they fit that thing through the doors!! It had to have been there before the arena was built, and they simply built the arena around it!! We think it might even predate the entire Seattle U campus!! It may actually be thousands of years old and have some ancient secret powers or something!!

But, it is understandably a frightening thing!! I don't blame Gonzaga for wanting nothing to do with this giant monstrosity of a hugely oversized bird!

But, it is gonna kinda suck that Grand Canyon, who's REALLY built themselves up and who I think will be in the top 25 by the end of the season this year, won't get to play in the same conference as Gonzaga on a regular basis. They'll have one year together and that's it. I think that series could have ended up being kinda fun.

[nickgyp]

Brew:

Funny stuff. Now, if only Seattle could mechanize that thing to flap its wings the entire game ala the St. Joseph’s hawk which, I recall, flapping at least one wing through the entirety of a 3 OT loss to the Muskies at Schmidt Fieldhouse. FWIW: St. Joe’s finished the game with at most four players on the court as the other players had all fouled out. It was hard not to root for the depleted visitors at the end.

[paulxu]

Looks like a blowup doll.

[GoMuskies]

Looks like a blowup doll.

I didn't have paul down as the site expert on blowup dolls...

[xubrew]

Looks like a blowup doll.

You didn't quite clarify this, but you're obviously talking about the arena and not the bird. I'm pretty sure their arena does just inflate before each game.

[paulxu]

I didn't have paul down as the site expert on blowup dolls...

We gave a life-size to a friend for his 50th birthday many years ago.
It had multiple opening.
We inflated it and drove through the gate on Kiawah. Thought they were going to arrest him.

[bjf123]

Brew:

Funny stuff. Now, if only Seattle could mechanize that thing to flap its wings the entire game ala the St. Joseph’s hawk which, I recall, flapping at least one wing through the entirety of a 3 OT loss to the Muskies at Schmidt Fieldhouse. FWIW: St. Joe’s finished the game with at most four players on the court as the other players had all fouled out. It was hard not to root for the depleted visitors at the end.

I felt sorry for their mascot at that game. His shoulders had to be dead at the end.


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[nickgyp]

The Hawk’s non-stop flapping was easily the best performance on the court that night!

[xubrew]

Texas State to remain in the Sun Belt and not go to the Mountain West.

[GoMuskies]

Texas State to remain in the Sun Belt and not go to the Mountain West.

Maybe the Sun Belt can raid the Mountain West!

[xudash]

We gave a life-size to a friend for his 50th birthday many years ago.
It had multiple opening.
We inflated it and drove through the gate on Kiawah. Thought they were going to arrest him.

I'm having recollections of Dudley Moore in FOUL PLAY with Goldie Hawn in his apartment and the Bee Gee's music blasting away.

BTW, that is hilarious. The Kiawah gatekeeper hopefully had a sense of humor.

[xudash]

On a more serious note, I can't see this aging well for Gonzaga. The long-term appeal of the Pac 12 with this composition just doesn't seem to have enough pop in it. And Gonzaga is aligning itself with mostly second-tier, public football schools.

The irony is that I guess it is a step up in competitiveness, versus what Gonzaga has been able to take advantage of historically with a weak WCC.

On the other hand, if it is true Gonzaga could snag a full football share and that that figure could come in around $11 million per year, then they have to do it:

It is “far too early” in the process to have clarity on the value of a media rights deal for the rebuilt Pac-12, but we “know one of the measuring sticks” for a new deal: $11M per school per year, according to Jon Wilner of San Jose MERCURY NEWS. Any media rights deal in that range “would qualify as a major psychological victory” for Washington State and Oregon State one year after they were “cast adrift” following the departure of 10 schools from the Pac-12. The rebuilt Pac-12 will feature four Mountain West schools with “above-average valuations,” plus WSU and OSU, which “carry far more media value than the Mountain West average.” The list of “interested suitors” to buy those media rights could include ESPN, which might need content for its streaming service as well as West Coast schools for its 7:30pm PT kickoff window. Fox seemingly would view the rebuilt Pac-12 as an “upgrade from its current association with the Mountain West and want to maintain a comparable inventory level.” The CW “could have interest, as well.” The network signed a one-year deal to broadcast WSU and OSU games this season, has a partnership with the ACC and “covets the return-on-investment offered by live sports.” Meanwhile, Turner is moving into the football space and “will need content to replace its NBA inventory.” The sports streamers, Amazon and Apple, “could have interest, as well.” Wilner wrote using the former Pac-12's media deal to determine average annual valuation, an average of $10M per school per year “seemingly approaches the ceiling for the rebuilt Pac-12 unless 1) the demand side of the marketplace changes substantially or 2) the conference adds two schools that further enhance value” (San Jose MERCURY NEWS, 9/12).

There will be an extraordinary amount of pressure on Gonzaga to maintain its success. Its fellow football members will become beyond peaved in the event the Zags fall off while not fielding a football team.

That Spokane, Washington address is just brutal when it comes to landing on a more logical conference solution.

[muskiefan82]

I'm having recollections of Dudley Moore in FOUL PLAY with Goldie Hawn in his apartment and the Bee Gee's music blasting away.

BTW, that is hilarious. The Kiawah gatekeeper hopefully had a sense of humor.

This is one of the funniest movies from when I was much younger. Loved this movie

[xudash]

This is one of the funniest movies from when I was much younger. Loved this movie

How about when the Dwarf bible salesman is mistaken for "The Dwarf" and Goldie Hawn ends up putting him in the hospital.

And of course, there is always: "KOJACK! KOJACK!"

[muskiefan82]

How about when the Dwarf bible salesman is mistaken for "The Dwarf" and Goldie Hawn ends up putting him in the hospital.

And of course, there is always: "KOJACK! KOJACK!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU8qOagfn-E

[xudash]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU8qOagfn-E

Thanks for sharing.

The size of cars back then. Damn.

[paulxu]

I'm having recollections of Dudley Moore in FOUL PLAY with Goldie Hawn in his apartment and the Bee Gee's music blasting away.

BTW, that is hilarious. The Kiawah gatekeeper hopefully had a sense of humor.

The life-size doll’s name was Aspen. She didn’t have any clothes on. The gatekeeper coming to the car thought she was a naked women.
Much fun.

[Xville]

I really think the big East missed a big opportunity with Gonzaga, and I think for the big East to remain viable it’s going to have to expand in this landscape. I don’t think sitting idly by is a good strategy

[xubrew]

I really think the big East missed a big opportunity with Gonzaga, and I think for the big East to remain viable it’s going to have to expand in this landscape. I don’t think sitting idly by is a good strategy

I think the only thing the Big East needs to do to remain viable is for 10 of its members to decide they want to stick together and then agree to do it. That's really it. The only way the league falls apart would be if schools were to start leaving.

[Xville]

I think the only thing the Big East needs to do to remain viable is for 10 of its members to decide they want to stick together and then agree to do it. That's really it. The only way the league falls apart would be if schools were to start leaving.

UConn is gone as soon as they are able and if you think other schools are not going to try to jet as soon as they can, I’d tell you that’s naive. There is strength in numbers in todays landscape and I think the big East needs to play offense

[xuwillie]

UConn is gone as soon as they are able and if you think other schools are not going to try to jet as soon as they can, I’d tell you that’s naive. There is strength in numbers in todays landscape and I think the big East needs to play offense

My opinion, Best hope is for the acc to add bball only schools once Clemson, NC and FSU figure out a way to get out of their contracts. Don’t think big east can survive long term with only 10 teams and if they add I don’t think any teams out there move the needle

[GoMuskies]

UConn is gone as soon as they are able and if you think other schools are not going to try to jet as soon as they can, I’d tell you that’s naive. There is strength in numbers in todays landscape and I think the big East needs to play offense

There's not really any one else worth having. You're just expanding for the sake of expanding at that point. And if someone else leaves, just add Dayton or Saint Louis or whoever then. It's not like they're going to have better options later.

[Xville]

My opinion, Best hope is for the acc to add bball only schools once Clemson, NC and FSU figure out a way to get out of their contracts. Don’t think big east can survive long term with only 10 teams and if they add I don’t think any teams out there move the needle

Probably not move the needle per se but i do think you can get some decent programs. I'd start with SLU, Memphis now that Gonzaga and I assume St. Mary's is gone.

[xudash]

Probably not move the needle per se but i do think you can get some decent programs. I'd start with SLU, Memphis now that Gonzaga and I assume St. Mary's is gone.

This right now is about $7 million and change per year per team.

This right now is about moving forward with UCONN in the stable.

“Right now” equals 6 years, starting next year.

Growth right now from what is available would not be value-added.

Not saying it won’t make sense down the road, but it absolutely does not make sense at this time.

[xubrew]

UConn is gone as soon as they are able and if you think other schools are not going to try to jet as soon as they can, I’d tell you that’s naive. There is strength in numbers in todays landscape and I think the big East needs to play offense

I agree about UConn. As for the rest, having all ten members sign a grant of rights, and/or writing into the agreements that then financial penalties for leaving the conference are substantial can probably be done just as easily as expanding. If all ten teams are worried about the conference falling apart, then they can collectively do something about that other than expanding.

I don't so much agree that there is strengh in numbers as I do that there is a perceived strength in numbers. ESPECIALLY when it comes to basketball. The strongest basketball conferences in the last fifteen years have been the ten team Big 12 and the ten team Big East. The 2019-2020 Big East was the strongest conference I can ever recall. It looked as though eight out of the ten teams were going to make the NCAA Tournament. I remember starting a thread about it. Too bad we never got to see that play out because of COVID.

http://www.xavierhoops.com/showthread.php?34166-The-Big-East-is-REALLY-Good-Maybe-Historically-Good

The data is there, and it is pretty conclusive. The ACC was never stronger as a 12, or 14, or 15 team conference than it was as 9 team conference, and they never sent a higher percentage of teams to the NCAA Tournament.

The Big East, as a 16 team league was never the top rated conference and only once sent more than half the teams. It was consistently better as a 10 team conference.

The Big 12 was never as good with 12 as they were with 10.

Expansion is driven by football and by conference media deals. Speaking in terms of performance, the leagues aren't really any better after they expand. They're usually worse. Stability can be achieved if all the remaining schools agree to keep everything stable. The most stable conference in the country, by far, is the Ivy League, and they only have eight teams.

[Xville]

I agree about UConn. As for the rest, having all ten members sign a grant of rights, and/or writing into the agreements that then financial penalties for leaving the conference are substantial can probably be done just as easily as expanding. If all ten teams are worried about the conference falling apart, then they can collectively do something about that other than expanding.

I don't so much agree that there is strengh in numbers as I do that there is a perceived strength in numbers. ESPECIALLY when it comes to basketball. The strongest basketball conferences in the last fifteen years have been the ten team Big 12 and the ten team Big East. The 2019-2020 Big East was the strongest conference I can ever recall. It looked as though eight out of the ten teams were going to make the NCAA Tournament. I remember starting a thread about it. Too bad we never got to see that play out because of COVID.

http://www.xavierhoops.com/showthread.php?34166-The-Big-East-is-REALLY-Good-Maybe-Historically-Good

The data is there, and it is pretty conclusive. The ACC was never stronger as a 12, or 14, or 15 team conference than it was as 9 team conference, and they never sent a higher percentage of teams to the NCAA Tournament.

The Big East, as a 16 team league was never the top rated conference and only once sent more than half the teams. It was consistently better as a 10 team conference.

The Big 12 was never as good with 12 as they were with 10.

Expansion is driven by football and by conference media deals. Speaking in terms of performance, the leagues aren't really any better after they expand. They're usually worse. Stability can be achieved if all the remaining schools agree to keep everything stable. The most stable conference in the country, by far, is the Ivy League, and they only have eight teams.

By strength I mean the conference not collapsing, not necessarily just on court performance. And frankly I don’t think the past has anything to do with the world we live in today as far as college sports. The ivy is stable but not what I want for x and the big East.


If UConn leaves, I really think it’s naive to not think other schools wouldnt look elsewhere. What would stop the big 12 from taking schools for basketball only etc?

Schools are never going to sign a gor ever again after what certain schools in the acc have gone thru

[GoMuskies]

But if we add Dayton and SLU, those ten schools would all turn down the Big XII?!?

[xubrew]

By strength I mean the conference not collapsing, not on court performance. And frankly I don’t think the past has anything to do with the world we live in today as far as college sports. The ivy is stable but not what I want for x and the big East.


If UConn leaves, I really think it’s naive to not think other schools will look elsewhere. What would stop the big 12 from taking schools for basketball only etc?

Schools are never going to sign a gor ever again after what certain schools in the acc have gone thru

I know. The ten schools that aren't UConn can easily keep it from collapsing if they all really want to. It would be better to just keep those ten IF you knew that none of them were going to look to leave, or couldn't leave due to a grant of rights deal. The Big East won't collapse if the schools can agree not to leave. What I'm suggesting is that rather than expand, I think it'd be better to try and work toward an agreement among all ten schools that basically makes it incredibly difficult for anyone to leave.

[xubrew]

But if we add Dayton and SLU, those ten schools would all turn down the Big XII?!?

I think the Big East should look at adding Alaska Anchorage. It's a big geographic market and they don't have football.

[xubrew]

What programs are actually better because of realignment?? And of those programs that are better, how many of them joined overly bloated leagues??

Not many schools are actually all that much better off. Certainly some are.

-Xavier absolutely is.

-I'd say Louisville was better off when they joined the Big East, and then joined the ACC. So we can even count them twice

-Cincinnati is certainly better in the Big 12.

-So is BYU.

-So is TCU. In fact they've probably been the biggest benefactors of it hands down.

-Rutgers?? In basketball...yeah. I mean they actually finally made an NCAA Tournament (but did little more than that) In football...no.

Am I missing anyone?????

-Maybe Texas A&M? But I'd say they're actually about the same. If anything they seemed to be participants in major bowls back when major bowls meant something more often as Big 8/Big12 members

-Missouri nearly went to the national championship game as a Big12 member. I think basketball wise they were better in the Big 12. If not, then it was clearly a lot more fun.

-Nebraska has never been as strong in the Big Ten as they were in the Big 8 and Big 12. Not even close, really.

-Colorado won a national championship and had more major bowl appearances in the Big 12

-Virginia Tech's best days were in the Big East (although they've had some good basketball teams, that was largely due to Buzz more than anything else)

-So were Miami FL's (although to be fair they've been much better in basketball since joining the ACC, but Jim Larranaga is probably the biggest reason why).

-Syracuse has still been good in basketball, but probably not as good

-BC wasn't really all that good in either confernece, although they did at least have SOME good moments in the Big East

-Maryland was better in the ACC in both sports and had more fun and more interesting rivalry games



I mean...it seems like there is this initial feeling of intrigue and excitement, but once that wears off...MOST programs (not all) are at best the same, and usually worse off. Maryland realized playing Iowa and Minnesota isn't as much fun as playing Duke and Virginia. The "Give a Fuck" factor has gone way down.

Missouri fans don't seem to care as much about Vanderbilt, Georgia, and Florida as they did Kansas and Nebraska. Not even close, really. I remember when their arena was almost always full.

But...schools continue to move. And move. And move. And I really do think that sooner or later people are going to think "Wow...this really was dumb. Things were much better before!"

[Xville]

What programs are actually better because of realignment?? And of those programs that are better, how many of them joined overly bloated leagues??

Not many schools are actually all that much better off. Certainly some are.

-Xavier absolutely is.

-I'd say Louisville was better off when they joined the Big East, and then joined the ACC. So we can even count them twice

-Cincinnati is certainly better in the Big 12.

-So is BYU.

-So is TCU. In fact they've probably been the biggest benefactors of it hands down.

-Rutgers?? In basketball...yeah. I mean they actually finally made an NCAA Tournament (but did little more than that) In football...no.

Am I missing anyone?????

-Maybe Texas A&M? But I'd say they're actually about the same. If anything they seemed to be participants in major bowls back when major bowls meant something more often as Big 8/Big12 members

-Missouri nearly went to the national championship game as a Big12 member. I think basketball wise they were better in the Big 12. If not, then it was clearly a lot more fun.

-Nebraska has never been as strong in the Big Ten as they were in the Big 8 and Big 12. Not even close, really.

-Colorado won a national championship and had more major bowl appearances in the Big 12

-Virginia Tech's best days were in the Big East (although they've had some good basketball teams, that was largely due to Buzz more than anything else)

-So were Miami FL's (although to be fair they've been much better in basketball since joining the ACC, but Jim Larranaga is probably the biggest reason why).

-Syracuse has still been good in basketball, but probably not as good

-BC wasn't really all that good in either confernece, although they did at least have SOME good moments in the Big East

-Maryland was better in the ACC in both sports and had more fun and more interesting rivalry games



I mean...it seems like there is this initial feeling of intrigue and excitement, but once that wears off...MOST programs (not all) are at best the same, and usually worse off. Maryland realized playing Iowa and Minnesota isn't as much fun as playing Duke and Virginia. The "Give a Fuck" factor has gone way down.

Missouri fans don't seem to care as much about Vanderbilt, Georgia, and Florida as they did Kansas and Nebraska. Not even close, really. I remember when their arena was almost always full.

But...schools continue to move. And move. And move. And I really do think that sooner or later people are going to think "Wow...this really was dumb. Things were much better before!"

I’m from Missouri and a Missouri fan. The interest has just switched to football and the revenue is undeniable vs the big 12. Basketball will be back when the team is good. It’s been pretty bad since they joined the sec due to some horrible coaching hires, that’s the reason for the attendance problems, not the switch to the sec.

[xubrew]

I’m from Missouri and a Missouri fan. The interest has just switched to football and the revenue is undeniable vs the big 12. Basketball will be back when the team is good. It’s been pretty bad since they joined the sec due to some horrible coaching hires, that’s the reason for the attendance problems, not the switch to the sec.

I'm sure the revenue is better. But the football itself isn't. There was no overall substantial improvement, and while it would be clearly wrong to say there was a huge drop off, it would not be wrong to say that in the last ten years they were in the Big 12 they had more sustained success than they've had in the SEC. At least that's how it appears when you look at the polls. It is, AT BEST, the same...

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/missouri/index.html

[GoMuskies]

Mizzou got to pretend they were good in football this year due to overhyping in the preseason polls. Probably something to do with being in the SEC.

[MHettel]

Expansion is driven by football and by conference media deals. Speaking in terms of performance, the leagues aren't really any better after they expand. They're usually worse. Stability can be achieved if all the remaining schools agree to keep everything stable. The most stable conference in the country, by far, is the Ivy League, and they only have eight teams.

I dont understand this. "leagues arent better after they expand."

Its not about being "better." Its about existing. The SEC expanded when they raided the B12 years ago. Then they did it again with UT and OU.

The B10 raided the Pac10. Then the Big 12 took a bite of the Pac 12, and then the B10 took another.

The Pac 12 did nothing and it cost them their existence. And now instead of a semi respectable single West coast league made up of the best of the MWC and Pac 12, we have 2 worse conferences that need to supplement their rosters with lower teams that have no business playing at that level.

Expansion and consolidation has ALWAYS been in the cards. Conferences that sat around have paid the price.

I've been talking about BE expansion for probably 5 years or more, with the idea that we need to expand westward and pick up Gonzaga. That ship has sailed. The Big East did nothing, and our top program cant wait to leave.

[XUGRAD80]

How a school does on the field, or on the court, is not as important to the school as how it does financially. Schools are moving to where they can do the best financially. Xavier didn’t move out of the A10 to make their BB team better. Rutgers didn’t move to the B10 with the thought that their football team would be better because of the move. Texas and Oklahoma moved to the SEC for the money. Leagues invite schools because of what kind of financial impact they can have. Schools that already have a quality product that will draw interest, and TV viewers, to leagues are desirable because they will add to the monetary value of TV contracts and thus increase league revenues. So it is a give and take equation. But it’s really all driven by the money, not the competition. Stability is only important to some fans. Leagues, and schools, are far more concerned with doing what is best for them finacially.

[Xville]

I'm sure the revenue is better. But the football itself isn't. There was no overall substantial improvement, and while it would be clearly wrong to say there was a huge drop off, it would not be wrong to say that in the last ten years they were in the Big 12 they had more sustained success than they've had in the SEC. At least that's how it appears when you look at the polls. It is, AT BEST, the same...

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/missouri/index.html

Yes, overall the football isn't better, it is about the same as the last few years in the big 12. However, the interest (in football) and the money have both increased substantially since the move. They have already completed the South End Zone renovation and just announced a 250 million dollar north end zone renovation.

Basketball interest will return once they are stable and good again, the interest has little to do with the move to the SEC, it's that overall they have been really bad since the move. The move has been great for Mizzou overall

[Xville]

How a school does on the field, or on the court, is not as important to the school as how it does financially. Schools are moving to where they can do the best financially. Xavier didn’t move out of the A10 to make their BB team better. Rutgers didn’t move to the B10 with the thought that their football team would be better because of the move. Texas and Oklahoma moved to the SEC for the money. Leagues invite schools because of what kind of financial impact they can have. Schools that already have a quality product that will draw interest, and TV viewers, to leagues are desirable because they will add to the monetary value of TV contracts and thus increase league revenues. So it is a give and take equation. But it’s really all driven by the money, not the competition. Stability is only important to some fans. Leagues, and schools, are far more concerned with doing what is best for them finacially.

Yep, that's why i think adding programs like Memphis and SLU to the Big East in my mind would be a solid move. They are larger markets with a lot of eyeballs. IMO the Big East standing still is not a good move.

[Xville]

I know. The ten schools that aren't UConn can easily keep it from collapsing if they all really want to. It would be better to just keep those ten IF you knew that none of them were going to look to leave, or couldn't leave due to a grant of rights deal. The Big East won't collapse if the schools can agree not to leave. What I'm suggesting is that rather than expand, I think it'd be better to try and work toward an agreement among all ten schools that basically makes it incredibly difficult for anyone to leave.

I hate to use the word never, but IMO that is never going to happen again, not after what the ACC is going thru. Yeah its keep them together for a while, but its also created a whole lot of friction and animosity. Not necessarily healthy for the league.

[GoMuskies]

Yep, that's why i think adding programs like Memphis and SLU to the Big East in my mind would be a solid move. They are larger markets with a lot of eyeballs. IMO the Big East standing still is not a good move.

Explain to me like I'm a child how adding SLU and Memphis (who's never giving up on football, so this is a pipe dream anyway) help make the Big East more stable? UConn is going to leave if they can find a good home for football. We know that. You're aftraid, it seems, that other Big East teams might be interested in an invite from the Big XII or ACC or whatever if they decide to invite basketball only members. I don't see it, but okay. Do you think those teams would choose to stay if Memphis and SLU were in the league? That would sway their decision?

I just don't see what adding anyone who's available right now does for the Big East other than make it weaker.

[Xville]

Explain to me like I'm a child how adding SLU and Memphis (who's never giving up on football, so this is a pipe dream anyway) help make the Big East more stable? UConn is going to leave if they can find a good home for football. We know that. You're aftraid, it seems, that other Big East teams might be interested in an invite from the Big XII or ACC or whatever if they decide to invite basketball only members. I don't see it, but okay. Do you think those teams would choose to stay if Memphis and SLU were in the league? That would sway their decision?

I just don't see what adding anyone who's available right now does for the Big East other than make it weaker.

Slu and Memphis are bigger markets with a lot of eyeballs...have Memphis join as a basketball only member. I think this would only increase revenues in terms of renegotiating a tv contract that to me dollars wise was just ok.

I don't think that adding those teams is going to get the others to stay but if they do, at least we have a few extra teams to keep the conference intact. I wouldn't rule out that if the big 12 does add UCONN one day, that they wouldn't go after a Memphis or another team that would be enticing.

My main point is that with the college sports landscape right now, only having 11 teams with 1 team halfway out the door, is a little scary...especially when there aren't a whole lot of programs left that would be any way shape or form desirable for the Big East.

I don't see how adding either or both of these teams hurts in the Big East in anyway, I'd have to think that would reopen TV negotiations, and revenues would be equal per school or maybe even better.

[GoMuskies]

I guess my point is: on Memphis, they'd never join the Big East, because they care too much about football, and the AAC isn't going to let them hang around for football only. If some other members leave someday, do you not think SLU is going to be available then? Where are they going to go in the meantime that they wouldn't ditch for the Big East? I don't see how adding them now helps, and if you need them later they're going to be there.

[XUMIOH12]

Slu and Memphis are bigger markets with a lot of eyeballs...have Memphis join as a basketball only member. I think this would only increase revenues in terms of renegotiating a tv contract that to me dollars wise was just ok.

I don't think that adding those teams is going to get the others to stay but if they do, at least we have a few extra teams to keep the conference intact. I wouldn't rule out that if the big 12 does add UCONN one day, that they wouldn't go after a Memphis or another team that would be enticing.

My main point is that with the college sports landscape right now, only having 11 teams with 1 team halfway out the door, is a little scary...especially when there aren't a whole lot of programs left that would be any way shape or form desirable for the Big East.

I don't see how adding either or both of these teams hurts in the Big East in anyway, I'd have to think that would reopen TV negotiations, and revenues would be equal per school or maybe even better.

Outside of uconn, what Big East teams do you see having an opportunity to leave for another conference? I have a hard time seeing why any of the other schools would garner interest from any of the football conferences.

[GoMuskies]

Outside of uconn, what Big East teams do you see having an opportunity to leave for another conference? I have a hard time seeing why any of the other schools would garner interest from any of the football conferences.

I agree with that,too. Seems pretty low risk. The Big East was great pre-UConn. UConn was just a bit of a bonus add because of their history with other members and their unique situation with football. If they leave, oh well. Was nice having them.

[Xville]

I guess my point is: on Memphis, they'd never join the Big East, because they care too much about football, and the AAC isn't going to let them hang around for football only. If some other members leave someday, do you not think SLU is going to be available then? Where are they going to go in the meantime that they wouldn't ditch for the Big East? I don't see how adding them now helps, and if you need them later they're going to be there.

Maybe, maybe not. I guess my point is, why take the chance if they are going to be there or not?

[GoMuskies]

Maybe, maybe not. I guess my point is, why take the chance if they are going to be there or not?

In my view, leaving them out there is really low risk. Particularly since they're not really additive today, and the threat related to the 10 members of the league not named UConn is so remote.

[Xville]

Outside of uconn, what Big East teams do you see having an opportunity to leave for another conference? I have a hard time seeing why any of the other schools would garner interest from any of the football conferences.

The big 12 has essentially come out and said they would take basketball only schools for the right fit. All Yomark seems to care about is reach and eyeballs so with that said, a St. John's with the NYC market seems pretty nice. Does Nova have any interest in their football program joining the FBS? Philly is a pretty big market, even with them being like the 7th most popular sports program in the city.

[Xville]

I guess my point is: on Memphis, they'd never join the Big East, because they care too much about football, and the AAC isn't going to let them hang around for football only. If some other members leave someday, do you not think SLU is going to be available then? Where are they going to go in the meantime that they wouldn't ditch for the Big East? I don't see how adding them now helps, and if you need them later they're going to be there.

Disagree. They looked at options. Sounds like it was potentially the Big East that said no.

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/sports/college/memphis-tigers/2024/09/24/memphis-big-east-basketball-pac-12-options/75363166007/

[GoMuskies]

OK, in that unique situation, I'd have taken Memphis, personally. I don't think we're ever likely to see that set of circumstances again, but never say never, I suppose. Seems that ship has sailed. I also suspect this shows that Val is, in fact, being proactive in trying to take advantage of unique opportunities.

But no interest in SLU from me.

[xubrew]

The big 12 has essentially come out and said they would take basketball only schools for the right fit. All Yomark seems to care about is reach and eyeballs so with that said, a St. John's with the NYC market seems pretty nice. Does Nova have any interest in their football program joining the FBS? Philly is a pretty big market, even with them being like the 7th most popular sports program in the city.

I agree with this. I think Yormark DID reach out (or I guess the better way to put it is that he "made inquiries") to as many as six Big East schools.

But...I also can't help but notice that they're all still in the Big East. The school that came the closest to leaving was UConn. They needed 12 votes to be invited to the Big 12 and received 11. I don't think any of the other schools even got to the point of being voted on, and if they did it would not been anywhere close to 12. Now, I could be wrong about that. Maybe you know something I don't or heard something I didn't, but the the only league "making inquiries" to the Big East seems to be the Big 12, and right now they're nowhere near the point of extending any invites to anyone other than UConn. Even if Yormark is interested, the current membership does not seem to be, and he cannot do a damn thing without them.

I mean...isn't it at least worth having the discussion amongst the ten schools and gaging everyone's thoughts of making a strong commitment to stick together?? If stability and survival is everyone's biggest concern, and the ten schools agree to put things in place to keep it stable, then it's stable! This can be accomplished without expansion. It's possible that all ten institutions like the idea of remaining in the Big East and don't want to go to the Big 12 where they have no political influence and where their votes and voices will never really be heard. And, even if they do leave, then schools like SLU will almost assuredly still be available as replacements.

[XUGRAD80]

Although traditionally schools have tried to keep ALL of their sports teams in the same conference, it is becoming more common for schools to move “minor” sports to other conference affiliations when necessary or advantageous. There is no NCAA regulations that prevent this from happening, although in some cases there are league requirements. We already have situations where a school can have certain sports playing at different NCAA levels. It would not surprise me to see this become more common with the BIG sports of football and basketball in the future. Whatever is going to work the best financially for schools is what they are going to move toward. So if it is best financially for Memphis to put their basketball program in the BE, and keep their football team where it is, that’s what they are going to try and do.

When in doubt…..follow the money.

Edit to add: Agreements between schools to remain in leagues are hardly worth the paper they are written on. School presidents and boards come and go and any contract/agreement can be bought out if it makes financial sense.

[xubrew]

Although traditionally schools have tried to keep ALL of their sports teams in the same conference, it is becoming more common for schools to move “minor” sports to other conference affiliations when necessary or advantageous. There is no NCAA regulations that prevent this from happening, although in some cases there are league requirements. We already have situations where a school can have certain sports playing at different NCAA levels. It would not surprise me to see this become more common with the BIG sports of football and basketball in the future. Whatever is going to work the best financially for schools is what they are going to move toward. So if it is best financially for Memphis to put their basketball program in the BE, and keep their football team where it is, that’s what they are going to try and do.

When in doubt…..follow the money.

Edit to add: Agreements between schools to remain in leagues are hardly worth the paper they are written on. School presidents and boards come and go and any contract/agreement can be bought out if it makes financial sense.

Yes! They can be! And that can be worth tens of millions of dollars more than the paper it's printed on!

And, just an FYI on something else you said, if a school is D1 in basketball then they have to be D1 in everything. Otherwise schools can (and do) have different sports playing in different divisions, particularly in lacrosse and hockey.

[XUGRAD80]

Yes! They can be! And that can be worth tens of millions of dollars more than the paper it's printed on!

And, just an FYI on something else you said, if a school is D1 in basketball then they have to be D1 in everything. Otherwise schools can (and do) have different sports playing in different divisions, particularly in lacrosse and hockey.

Currently that is true….but in the future? My point is that if it makes financial sense for schools and conferences to see that changed, it probably will get changed. The NCAA is not the one with the power any longer. The TV networks and the conferences are the ones that will be making the rules moving forward. Once again…..follow the money. It’s the golden rule…..those with the gold make the rules.

[xudash]

A few thoughts / comments:

1. Potential Big East Additions: It's pretty simple as it stands right now (and through the end of this decade) - any addition would have to be able to justify an annual payout to such a school equal to the upcoming new payout to each BE school. Over $7 million per year. That's minimum. It would have to be neutral or accretive financially to the BE membership, because they aren't going to accept dilution.

2. UCONN: May / will / will most likely ... leave as soon as it finds an acceptable all-sports conference solution. With Yormark's latest failure to get them onboard with the Big 12, and with the Big 12 frankly filled up at this point, I don't believe UCONN can rely on that as a solution for the next few years, if not longer. The ACC? It's looking more and more like each and every ACC school is tied to the GOR mast until the middle of the next decade. FSU and Clemson certainly aren't helping themselves this football season with their appeal to the B1G or SEC. UCONN has no place to go - for ???.

3. Yormark and Monetizing Basketball Value: This one gets a little muddy for one very simple reason: The schools that now comprise the Big 12 are almost desperate for additional funding for football, because they are so far behind the B1G and SEC on media payouts. This one is for the media guys to take on, but, while the Big 12 is undoubtedly a strong hoops conference, how much more in media payouts could it offer an existing BE school? I also can't see our eastern seaboard brethren giving up MSG and our existing composition to go play flyover ball all over hell and back. Keep in mind that the C7 pulled away from a hybrid conference for a reason - they wanted basketball driving the decisioning. Any school that would leave the BE for the Big 12 would have to know that football is job one for that conference.

4. Big East Unity: What on God's earth would make anyone here believe that the current membership of the Big East, save for UCONN, isn't fully aligned.


80 has already spelled it out in as clear as terms as possible: the Presidents care about finances and brand.

They absolutely will not grow the conference if that means dilution for the existing members. And think about that for a minute. The market is telling you that your collective value is north of $7 million per school per year. Oh, you want to add SLU or VD? No problem. You're now worth less than $6 million per school to us. Who on earth would think about expanding right now if it isn't otherwise necessary and certainly if it doesn't lead to financial improvement, or at least neutrality?

SLU has no where else to go. VD will never sniff the Big East so long as Xavier is a member of it. And if we ever have to dip into the mid-major well, we'll be looking at a problematic environment for us and the Big East.

AS THINGS STAND, we are operating in a window where the Big East is highly respected, we have the best conference tournament going, $7 million+ per school is strong for hoops, and we have a 6-year window - assuming UCONN doesn't bolt - where we can continue to excel at basketball while football continues to sort itself out. The SEC has 16 teams. The B1G has 18 teams. 34 total. What if they pluck ND and 5 other teams and run off to their own sandbox to crank up NFL Lite, leaving everyone else stranded with respect to their football programs?

[XUGRAD80]

I’ll also point out that if any BE schools was invited to a conference where they stand to double (or more) the money they are currently receiving, they will be gone faster than I can type this sentence. Loyalty is one thing, but it doesn’t pay the bills. I certainly don’t see that scenario happening, but if it did they’d be gone. Including X.

[xubrew]

Currently that is true….but in the future? My point is that if it makes financial sense for schools and conferences to see that changed, it probably will get changed. The NCAA is not the one with the power any longer. The TV networks and the conferences are the ones that will be making the rules moving forward. Once again…..follow the money. It’s the golden rule…..those with the gold make the rules.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you implying that contractual buyouts, obligations, and exit fees may not be binding in the future, or that the so-called "Dayton Rule" will no longer be in play??

I don't see either one of those things changing. The former is an issue of contractual law, and the latter is something that I don't think any school in any of the three divisions wants to see changed. Why would they?? I can't see any financial advantage to allowing schools with D1 resources and D1 revenue that basketball generates to play their other Olympic sports in D2 and D3.

[XUGRAD80]

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you implying that contractual buyouts, obligations, and exit fees may not be binding in the future, or that the so-called "Dayton Rule" will no longer be in play??

I don't see either one of those things changing. The former is an issue of contractual law, and the latter is something that I don't think any school in any of the three divisions wants to see changed. Why would they?? I can't see any financial advantage to allowing schools with D1 resources and D1 revenue that basketball generates to play their other Olympic sports in D2 and D3.

I’m more saying that IF IT MAKES FINANCIAL SENSE for it to happen, we will see cases where a school will be a member of a conference for its basketball/football programs only. The other sports will play in other conferences that make more sense for them to be involved in. BUT the same COULD be true for playing at different division levels for different sports too. In fact, we already see both of these things happening is some individual cases where it makes FINANCIAL sense. If you can’t see why a school might want to keep its expenses for non-revenue sports as low as possible, I don’t know how to explain college finances to you.

Dayton is a perfect example of where their football and basketball programs play at different levels. Oklahoma is moving to the SEC, but its wrestling program (which is one of the most successful college programs 8n D1 history) won’t be able to because the SEC doesn’t have wrestling. I’m not sure exactly what it’s going to do, but it might well be staying in the B12 for wrestling. There are many examples of schools having its teams playing in multiple conferences for different sports.

Schools will do what makes the most FINANCIAL sense for themselves, and the conferences will too. They will write outs INTO the agreements. The current ACC situation will serve as a warning to schools to not agree to contracts that seek to bind a school to a conference with a huge buyout clause.

[xubrew]

Okay, you had mentioned schools playing at different divisions. Sports only conferences exist and are allowed. Schools can be in as many different conferences for as many different sports as what those conferences will allow.

What is not allowed is playing D1 basketball and nonD1 something else. That’s why the PFL exists. It’s a football only non-scholarship league for D1 schools. And, I don’t see that rule ever changing. Nor do I see it ever making financial sense to change it.

[XUGRAD80]

Okay, you had mentioned schools playing at different divisions. Sports only conferences exist and are allowed. Schools can be in as many different conferences for as many different sports as what those conferences will allow.

What is not allowed is playing D1 basketball and nonD1 something else. That’s why the PFL exists. It’s a football only non-scholarship league for D1 schools. And, I don’t see that rule ever changing. Nor do I see it ever making financial sense to change it.

I only said that it COULD happen…if it made financial sense to enough schools to let it happen.

My whole point through this whole thing is that it is all about MONEY and nothing else really matters. History, tradition, what long term fans like, what individual schools want, what the NCAA leadership wants….none of those things matter anymore. TV MONEY is what it is all about from now on. ANYTHING is possible, even if you don’t think it makes financial sense under current conditions or rules. Conditions and rules can change. And probably will.