Conference carousel to start spinning again?

[chico]

Which when you dig deeper it’s not bad and hopefully they get a bump with the next deal. People talk about how much football media deals bring in but they also spend a ton more than basketball. So a $4 million basketball deal is probably comparable to a $40
million football media deal. Ohio State spent over $225 million dollars on athletics last year. By comparison, Creighton, who doesn’t have football, spent just over $26 million on all of their athletic programs last year. Xavier basketball I think turns a profit of over $6 million a year, maybe more, where as most football programs outside the top group, lose money. Football is super expensive.

That's not really a fair comparison. OSU has the largest athletic budget, and it's not even close. They're like the Mets when it comes to spending money
(insert joke about having the same results). Yes football is expensive but OSU fields many, many more teams in more sports than a school like Creighton does.

It also looks like OSU is one of the most profitable as well. https://thesportsdaily.com/news/college-sports-finances-top-10-most-profitable-ncaa-d1-athletic-departments-in-public-schools-in-2022/

[JTG]

Which when you dig deeper it’s not bad and hopefully they get a bump with the next deal. People talk about how much football media deals bring in but they also spend a ton more than basketball. So a $4 million basketball deal is probably comparable to a $40
million football media deal. Ohio State spent over $225 million dollars on athletics last year. By comparison, Creighton, who doesn’t have football, spent just over $26 million on all of their athletic programs last year. Xavier basketball I think turns a profit of over $6 million a year, maybe more, where as most football programs outside the top group, lose money. Football is super expensive.

I read last week that even WITH BIG 10 money, Rutgers Athletic Dept is $250 million in debt.

[waggy]

This Stanford-ACC thing is wild. If Stanford is hellbent on going there (regardless of the reasons), how much could they be shook down for???

Obviously not as valuable as a pro franchise seat, but the exclusivity principle is the same.

[xudash]

Which when you dig deeper it’s not bad and hopefully they get a bump with the next deal. People talk about how much football media deals bring in but they also spend a ton more than basketball. So a $4 million basketball deal is probably comparable to a $40
million football media deal. Ohio State spent over $225 million dollars on athletics last year. By comparison, Creighton, who doesn’t have football, spent just over $26 million on all of their athletic programs last year. Xavier basketball I think turns a profit of over $6 million a year, maybe more, where as most football programs outside the top group, lose money. Football is super expensive.

You are spot on about this.

Three simple things:

1. It's about the INCOME STATEMENT, it's not just about REVENUE. It amazes me how casual some fans are with respect to how they view all of this.

2. MHETTEL raises a valid point: a certain amount of accounting gymnastics is played in this area.

3. Regardless of Point #2, it is true that there are a comparatively small number of FBS schools that post positive "earnings" year in and year out.


Now, $4 million (hoops) may equate to $40 million (all sports) or it may not, but there is no doubt that the expense base for an FBS program is substantially larger than what it is for a "hoops school." But it's worse than that, because there has been an ongoing arms race in collegiate athletics for over two decades now. CAPEX has primarily centered on football, but basketball venues and other sports stadiums, such as for soccer and baseball, have been involved, too.

Look what we've been able to accomplish with the Cintas Center since it opened in 2000. Our baseball stadium has been improved (frankly, I think it's a very nice setting). We have a golf practice facility that rivals any program's practice facility. And the Champions Center is now open for business. That's our small, private school operating with a $4 million media deal and a basketball venue that acts like a cash register.

It gets much, much uglier for a major FBS school when it comes to capital projects. Football stadiums eat money; they require bond issues most of the time. And we all know that football means carrying many additional sports due to Title IX requirements. And don't forget the marching band thing.

What's coming? Linear, and its better margins, may (will) give way over time to streaming, at least to some degree. People are talking in terms of this round of media agreement negotiations as being the last full dip into the well for these larger media deals. Things will probably be very different and in different ways for different programs as we move in the '30's. The Ohio State's and the Alabama's will simply move forward on a well off basis given their brands, student populations and alumni networks. Perhaps that will be the basis of the next seismic shift: who truly drives eyeballs and value and who is and has been along for the ride, primarily due to old, dusty, collegial relationships? What say you Boston College and Wake Forest? How do you feel about all this, other than to be relieved at this point thanks to the shackles of the ACC GOR?

With all this noted, I have a sneaking suspicion that there will be room for a premier basketball centric conference - The Big East. The 2013 reboot has proven to be successful, probably beyond a number of people's expectations. Thank God for Fox and good timing. MSG for the BET is simply a strategic asset. We have solid brands, with key ones in NYC and D.C. about to wake up. AND we happen to be in geographical locations that soak up a substantial amount of U.S. population - that can't be a bad thing, regardless of how things work moving forward.

I wish I could find it again, but I read an article that identified the Big East as being a top brand, or one of the very top brands in college basketball. Think about that and about keeping UCONN, and maybe learning of a surprise expansion move as we move into our next media agreement.

I focus on this stuff more than I do our recruiting, as if you probably couldn't tell. Long-term brand viability for Xavier is job one for me. What does that mean for here and now? It means that I PRAY TO GOD THAT OUR NEXT MEDIA AGREEMENT LEADS TO NO LESS THAN $8 MILLION PER SCHOOL. That would be a major win. That would be a major signal to the collegiate hoops universe.

[MHettel]

This Stanford-ACC thing is wild. If Stanford is hellbent on going there (regardless of the reasons), how much could they be shook down for???

Obviously not as valuable as a pro franchise seat, but the exclusivity principle is the same.

Is there some recent news on this? Last I saw, the ACC didn’t have the votes to add Stanford and Cal. Presumably FSU and 3 others are holding those votes back as leverage to get more of the revenue pool.

Has that situation changed or evolved?

[XU_Lou]

"Here's the caveat: The Big East's powers-that-be know that just because the Big 12 is occupied for now, that doesn't mean the UConn matter is truly done-done. After a few years of running a 16-team conference, if Yormark is happy staying on as commissioner of the Big 12, there is a chance he'll circle back with his presidents and push once more for basketball schools. Beyond that, of course UConn is monitoring the odd situation in the ACC, wherein Florida State has blasted out its unhappiness with its standing in that league. Should the ACC lose a school or two or four in the next stage of realignment, there is a chance that league could come calling for UConn."

Did not even consider this as a possibility, but if the ACC gets raided at some point, they could come after schools in the BE.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/big-12-leaving-uconn-gonzaga-behind-in-conference-realignment-will-prove-best-for-both-in-long-run/

[Xville]

Maybe far fetched but I think by the '30s or '40s there probably won't be conferences anymore at least for football and probably basketball. I don't know why there would be.

[XUGRAD80]

AAC to disband and teams will merge with the remaining PAC schools to form an eighteen team conference that goes coast to coast…PAC 18. 2 separate divisions….east and west.

It’s on Twitter so it must be true.

[MHettel]

AAC to disband and teams will merge with the remaining PAC schools to form an eighteen team conference that goes coast to coast…PAC 18. 2 separate divisions….east and west.

It’s on Twitter so it must be true.

Can’t tell if you are joking…

What a debacle if true.

Although Memphis and Stanford have similar academic profiles…

[waggy]

Is there some recent news on this? Last I saw, the ACC didn’t have the votes to add Stanford and Cal. Presumably FSU and 3 others are holding those votes back as leverage to get more of the revenue pool.

Has that situation changed or evolved?

This AP report earlier today said that Stanford has offered to go the ACC for ZERO dollars for 5 years, and partial share for a few years following that. I think the original report has been altered, but it's still claiming a reduced share. SMU has offered to play for free as well. And supposedly Cal is in for at least reduced share. Widely discussed on many forums today. https://apnews.com/article/pac12-stanford-acc-conference-realignment-oregon-washiington-0722c523671cd2e4ac8b42151000bf48

[Xavgrad08]

"Here's the caveat: The Big East's powers-that-be know that just because the Big 12 is occupied for now, that doesn't mean the UConn matter is truly done-done. After a few years of running a 16-team conference, if Yormark is happy staying on as commissioner of the Big 12, there is a chance he'll circle back with his presidents and push once more for basketball schools. Beyond that, of course UConn is monitoring the odd situation in the ACC, wherein Florida State has blasted out its unhappiness with its standing in that league. Should the ACC lose a school or two or four in the next stage of realignment, there is a chance that league could come calling for UConn."

Did not even consider this as a possibility, but if the ACC gets raided at some point, they could come after schools in the BE.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/big-12-leaving-uconn-gonzaga-behind-in-conference-realignment-will-prove-best-for-both-in-long-run/

The Big East could definitely get poached at some point. On the Syracuse and Pitt boards it is mentioned making a run at UConn, Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's. This would occur after certain members leave the ACC. Some posters on here have mentioned the Big East adding Syracuse and BC after the ACC implodes. It might be equally probable for the ACC to pick certain BE teams. Money talks in college athletics. The next TV contract for the Big East will be very important.

I found this quote from the CBS article very interesting. "When the Big 12's rights are up in 2030-31 and Yormark can look to separate basketball and football, hell yes, they will go after Gonzaga and other basketball-only schools," one commissioner told CBS Sports.

If you can separate basketball and Football some basketball only schools would be very attractive. Especially in the streaming sports age. Yormark has been clear that he thinks basketball has been undervalued. The only constant in College athletic conferences is change. Will be interesting to see what this looks like 15 years in the future.

[waggy]

Thing is the BE was only 3 W's from having 3 of 4 Final 4 teams. And the conference is getting better. There's good money getting a lot of teams in the dance and having some advance. And compared to the football conferences the BE has fewer mouths to feed. Lean and mean. Round robin.

[profson]

The Big East could definitely get poached at some point. On the Syracuse and Pitt boards it is mentioned making a run at UConn, Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's. This would occur after certain members leave the ACC. Some posters on here have mentioned the Big East adding Syracuse and BC after the ACC implodes. It might be equally probable for the ACC to pick certain BE teams. Money talks in college athletics. The next TV contract for the Big East will be very important.

I found this quote from the CBS article very interesting. "When the Big 12's rights are up in 2030-31 and Yormark can look to separate basketball and football, hell yes, they will go after Gonzaga and other basketball-only schools," one commissioner told CBS Sports.

If you can separate basketball and Football some basketball only schools would be very attractive. Especially in the streaming sports age. Yormark has been clear that he thinks basketball has been undervalued. The only constant in College athletic conferences is change. Will be interesting to see what this looks like 15 years in the future.

Having basketball only schools with football schools is precisely what blew up the conference in the first place. Why would the BE do that again. The BE has largely been spared the recent commotion because it is a basketball league but for UCONN. It is no surprise tbat UCONN would want to leave if a football opportunity arose.

[D-West & PO-Z]

That data is suspect. Been through this before. Accounting gymnastics

Yep. I don't trust any of these schools when they claim they are losing money. Not for a second. What they are doing is equivalent to one of us taking money from our checking account (athletics dept) and moving it to our savings account (school itself) and claiming we lost money.

[xudash]

Found this interesting perspective on the UCONN board:

The elephant in the room is Basketball schools are completely getting shafted in their association with the NCAA tournament and there is no outcry .
The men’s basketball tournament earns a billion dollars yet
the distribution pool for participating conferences is about $175,000,000 or less than 20% . By comparison the power football schools keep over 80% of their playoff money
Last year the Big East earned 15 units @$338,000 per unit or about $5,000,000 a year for 6 years or $30,000,000 and The Big East is thrilled .
Yet that number per unit at 80% is about $1,500, 000 per unit
would have been $22,000, 000 or $132,000,000 over six years
The Big East could be dividing $80,000,000 to $100,000,000 annually varying with tournament success .
That‘s without changing the tournament and all 32 D1 conference’s participation.
That’s not Power conference money but it makes Basketball a much more important player .
Huggins in a one of his rants indicated this and I ran the numbers
The question is why basketballs schools allow themselves to be exploited ?
Those that think the chief beneficiary is the NCAA corporate office are mistaken . They distribute half the sum $500,000,000 to 1200 member schools for no apparent reason
They also help finance multiple championship , however many are partially covered by a $35,000,000 a year deal with ESPN that includes the NIT, Baseball, Softball , The men’s tournament overseas rights and the gem , the women’s Basketball tournament that is currently valued at about $80,000,000 as a stand alone which turns that tournament as a nice profit maker. The current deal expires this coming year and should at least triple .
It turns out BB is a pretty lucrative sport however the schools that make the money aren’t compensated equitably.
The huge impact of getting $7,000,000 a year for each Big East team is significant and makes a BB school much more attractive in CR . Excluding conferences that earn one or even two units annually is also totally unnecessary . The benefits out weight the cost .

[X-band '01]

You'll hear bloody murder if and when Big East schools don't get a bump in media revenue for the next TV deal. We'll see just how important the conference is when you take into account the enhanced XII and B1G conferences on Fox (although the Pac-12 is now out of the equation).

[sirthought]

I'd be surprised if BE schools get $9 million. Small schools playing a bunch of games that mean little to most casual fans mean modest ratings.

But going to another conference won't really change that equation. They'll do well to stick together and focus on a good product. And doubling what they have now is quite respectable. They just have to live within their means and ride the PR train to keep their profile up in the media.


I could see the Big 12 going for FSU or Duke before UCONN, given what we know about the AAC's contentment. They'll have UCF and other schools on that side of the country and somewhat of a track record of setting up deals that make sense for building into the future. And those schools look more attractive for football than UCONN.

Basketball is undervalued, but programs combined with football will still make bigger media deals, so the focus on those additions still makes sense.

[paulxu]

Each SEC school gets $50 million. With their bloated football programs and the associated costs, I wouldn’t think their MBB programs gets anymore than we do in the BE.

[xudash]

I'd be surprised if BE schools get $9 million. Small schools playing a bunch of games that mean little to most casual fans mean modest ratings.

But going to another conference won't really change that equation. They'll do well to stick together and focus on a good product. And doubling what they have now is quite respectable. They just have to live within their means and ride the PR train to keep their profile up in the media.


I could see the Big 12 going for FSU or Duke before UCONN, given what we know about the AAC's contentment. They'll have UCF and other schools on that side of the country and somewhat of a track record of setting up deals that make sense for building into the future. And those schools look more attractive for football than UCONN.

Basketball is undervalued, but programs combined with football will still make bigger media deals, so the focus on those additions still makes sense.

Florida State recently was yelling, screaming, and kicking about wanting to get out of the ACC conference. As you probably are aware, they engaged JP Morgan to take a look at what they could do on a private equity basis. The bottom line is that they are facing a number approaching $500 million in order to get out of the ACC now - exit fee plus breaking the GOR.

FSU has otherwise been told to pound salt with respect to an imbalanced distribution arrangement within the ACC.

[Masterofreality]

I'd be surprised if BE schools get $9 million. Small schools playing a bunch of games that mean little to most casual fans mean modest ratings.

It’s more than that. BE games provide CONTENT to networks that are starving for it in the cold winter months. The NBA and NHL are locked up. And there is a comparison then between BE games and any alternative programming like Curling in the winter.
There are LOTS of hours to fill on Sports TV.

[sirthought]

It’s more than that. BE games provide CONTENT to networks that are starving for it in the cold winter months. The NBA and NHL are locked up. And there is a comparison then between BE games and any alternative programming like Curling in the winter.
There are LOTS of hours to fill on Sports TV.

I've written about this myself here in the past. But that was the case when FS1 was brand new. If another conference with larger schools can be substituted for BE games in those same time slots, I wouldn't doubt that FS1 would look forward to it.

I'm sure the network people are all scrambling to figure out who might go where. It's still smart money to go with a conference that usually produces good performers, but that doesn't really mean as much to advertisers if they think a larger program's game is worth more to back.

The ratings numbers for BE games improved over the time of their contract. But even with top 25 teams up and down from year to year, the numbers were small compared to other conferences. The BE was lucky that they had such a strong brand, despite being smaller schools.

[xudash]

https://painttouches.com/2022/08/05/big-east-financials-how-have-tv-ratings-performed/

I’d say we should see some amount of increase.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I've written about this myself here in the past. But that was the case when FS1 was brand new. If another conference with larger schools can be substituted for BE games in those same time slots, I wouldn't doubt that FS1 would look forward to it.

I'm sure the network people are all scrambling to figure out who might go where. It's still smart money to go with a conference that usually produces good performers, but that doesn't really mean as much to advertisers if they think a larger program's game is worth more to back.

The ratings numbers for BE games improved over the time of their contract. But even with top 25 teams up and down from year to year, the numbers were small compared to other conferences. The BE was lucky that they had such a strong brand, despite being smaller schools.

A couple questions:

1. Were the BE numbers smaller compared to other conferences on FS1? Or do you mean on other networks? And if other networks are ESPN, doesn't that make sense given the popularity of sports fans just causally flipping on ESPN? If compared to other conferences on FS1 then I see that as an issue.

2. When it comes to networks starving for content, what other options does the BE have other than FS1? Is ESPN looking for more? If not, who else is there? Like a CBS for CBS sports network? If there really isn't any other great options than Fox doesn't want to bid against themselves.

I hope we get a good deal with Fox done. I love all the games being on actual TV as opposed to having to find them on an obscure network or on ESPN+, etc.

[D-West & PO-Z]

https://painttouches.com/2022/08/05/big-east-financials-how-have-tv-ratings-performed/

I’d say we should see some amount of increase.

That seems to answer my 1st question above. But, not surprising that the Big 10 would draw much bigger numbers than the Big East given the size of their fan bases.

[sirthought]

Yeah, that link paints part of the picture. I mean, everything might work out great for BE, but there's a lot of evidence that stacks against them, despite their good performance on the court. And this is all because they are smaller schools that a national audience doesn't get too excited about compared to others.

Big East draws far fewer viewers on FS1 than other conferences they work with now, which going forward means FS1 have a choice to make: go with an okay performer of Big East ratings with lots of games, or another conference with more viewers and fewer games. And we're also competing against other sports besides college hoops, which may be performing as well or better than BE hoops. FS1 is branching out to make themselves different.

But if they wanted to stick with a higher quantity of college games at a cheaper price tag, plenty of leagues like A-10, MAC, C-USA, etc would take that deal for less than the BE wants. Or they could add on more Big Ten games to go with the slate of Big 12 games they've already committed to.

Either way, BE is likely to see fewer of the prime game slots we've enjoyed on FS1.

On FS1 in 2022:
16 BE games topped 200K viewers. We had around 40 games, so fewer than half. This doesn't help them.
29 Big Ten games topped 200K viewers. They had 30 games.

Games on the big FOX do much better, so if they decide to stick with a Big East contract, we'd hope for more of those games to build the brand.

My take:
The Big East will be extremely lucky if FOX/FS1 offer them a similar number of games package. Around $8 million per school would be very good in their position. They should take it and jump for joy.

ESPN might offer the same, or maybe even more money, but it would be a whole lotta ESPN+ because BE just won't draw the desired viewers on the network outside of a handful of games. Games on ESPN 1 or 2 might do better than on FS1, but not enough for them to care a great deal. But if they can boost ESPN+ subscriptions, they'll love that. Same situation as what the AAC had been dealing with.

CBS and NBC don't seem to pony up this kind of major money except for the bigger conferences, even if it's a handful of games. Who knows if they make a play with all these changes. Seems like they've put more sports on cable networks like USA, which for folks who still enjoy cable would be ideal.

A streamer like Prime, Apple, etc. could be a factor if they offer more money.

[sirthought]

I read that there could be a chance that TNT loses their NBA contract. If that's the case, they might look towards college basketball. They didn't want to spend what it took to win college football.

[waggy]

FOX has been very good for the BE. They've overpaid really, and honestly saved the conference. FS1 was pretty new at the time, so the BE helped them with good content. People know where to find FS1 now. They are in more homes than ESPN. I hope the BE stays with FOX unless they're offer is extremely low. I think the BE's viewership numbers will continue to grow. This is a big year for the BE. Would be great if St. Johns is top 5.

[sirthought]

Part of why the BE ratings are so low is that they were on FS1.

Even though I prefer FS1, they would have likely done much better on ESPN because it was established. And FS1 is attracting it's highest rated shows F1 racing, NASCAR, soccer, and some baseball like the world baseball classic. College football is also really strong for them. It's kind of a different sports fan tuning in.

FS1 makes our games feel like a big-time conference with the famous announcers and major time slots, but BE numbers haven't been very different from A-10 on CBSSports. Other mid majors do about the same. I could see CBSSports viewing the BE as an upgrade for their cable network and if we got games on the big CBS on weekends it would be a very good thing. In 2022, for example, CBS had the highest average college basketball rating of 1.25 million.

So the contract ends after the 2024-25 season. So much has changed in the landscape. UCON (both men and women's teams) will be a very valuable component for Fox. Schools like SJU and GU HAVE to get better these next two seasons.

This season the Big Ten will not be on ESPN for the first time in forever, being spread to Fox, CBS, and NBC. UCLA and USC joining the Big Ten will be so big for FS1, we won't see the BE heavy focus.

ESPN is losing the Big Ten/ACC challenge and the SEC/Big 12 challenge. There's serious talk that Apple could buy ESPN from Disney. It would quickly change the sports media landscape. Unknown if ABC would be included, but it might be. Verizon could be a partner in this.

Prime has exploded subscriptions with Thursday Night Football and the WNBA is a growing thing for them. They are starting to develop standalone sports streaming apps in countries like Brazil.

[drudy23]

Part of why the BE ratings are so low is that they were on FS1.

.

Is this true?

There's no way the ratings are the same as when we were in the A10.

[xavierj]

Is this true?

There's no way the ratings are the same as when we were in the A10.

I am not sure how the ratings in 2022, FS1 and the A10 have anything to do with each other? Maybe I am missing something.

[xavierj]

Is this true?

There's no way the ratings are the same as when we were in the A10.

I am not sure how the ratings in 2022, FS1 and the A10 have anything to do with each other? Am I am missing something?

[xudash]

FS1 was obviously a new channel when we got going with it.

Our numbers have grown organically and on a sound basis with the channel.

Yes, we can’t compare with B1G fan bases and their viewership numbers.

The channel (Fox) has done a great job in strategically increasing and improving its content array.

The Big East claims 3 NC’s since its reboot. It will retain UCONN (for now). It now has Pitino in NYC and Georgetown rebuilding. We primarily operate in the Eastern time zone.

IMHO, our next media deal will not remain at $4 million per school, or less.

I see us re-upping with Fox. >/= $7 million (hopefully 8+).

Like now, some of it gets farmed out to other channels.

An important issue - as we all know - is time slots/exposure. It won’t be like it has been, but I’m not expecting Armageddon either.

I imagine Val’s whiteboard looks like an LA ROADMAP. And she is going to have to come up with the best deal possible based upon the facts as we know them now. That includes understanding that the ACC is either “safe“ through 2036, or that it begins to fall apart a few years before then.

That includes what appears to be an obvious realization that expanding via the A10 pool is a nonstarter.

Gonzaga? We will either be surprised with this news within the next six or seven months, or I doubt it will happen at all.

So many moving parts. Nonetheless, sometime between now and probably in the mid 30s, a further tightening of the screws will take place. That is because rich linear television deals will begin to give way to a combination of linear and streaming. That is when the rubber will really hit the road in terms of which football brands are the most valuable.

Through all of this, I believe there is a way for the Big East and its members to maintain a high-level of performance and stature within the sport of college basketball.

Onward we go with our slowly developing jigsaw puzzle.

[xudash]

BTW, I believe the A10 viewership discussion is primarily in regards to their championship game versus the BE’s championship game. Their viewership numbers are higher for that, but that is because they are on main CBS just prior to the selection show. I’m not terribly worried about the A10’s television exposure, as their overall television package is terrible in every respect.

[xudash]

Finally, an interesting article:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/candid-coaches-is-it-better-for-uconn-to-stay-in-the-big-east-or-try-to-join-the-big-12-or-acc/

[paulxu]

Dash, interesting.
Wonder when people will start saying Power 4.

[UCGRAD4X]

Dash, interesting.
Wonder when people will start saying Power 4.

You just did.

See what you started!

As far as UCONN having an identity associated with Big East - that whole notion of historical conference connection went out the window when USC and UCLA left the PAC10.

[xudash]

Back to the notion of the high likelihood that conference realignment has at least one more major reiteration to get through - meaning that the screws will tighten again based on whether or not a particular program is a major viable brand (e.g. Ohio State) or a program that has been riding the coattails of such a brand (e.g. Rutgers). In other words, football will become its own "College NFL'ish thing with, say the top 40 or so programs, and we'll otherwise see some level of sanity creep back into the mix for basketball and Olympic sports.

Nebraska's AD weighs in on this:

https://journalstar.com/sports/huskers/football/amie-just-trev-alberts-on-realignment-angst-future-plans-schedule-conflicts/article_e4e9413e-c06a-5e06-ab15-14b5ab34f245.html#tracking-source=mp-homepage

I truly see a path thru for Xavier now. It is based on this next media agreement coming through with good optics: a dollar amount per school that says, "yes, Big East, you deserve a pay raise. At the very least, the Big East is established as and will remain THE premier basketball centric conference GOING INTO this next round of final "linear to streaming" resetting.

What does that mean COMING OUT OF that next round, when schools #41 and down have to make a decision about their athletic departments; about certain schools not having enough funding to play at the highest level? This is where it gets very complicated. Will it be the top 40 or top 60? Top 40 means that a conference like the B1G, that is more than just about playing football (i.e. AAU research dollars and arrangements, etc.) would have to make hard decisions about schools like Northwestern and maybe Indiana, after already having punted Rutgers, Maryland, Oregon and Washington, or some combination of them. Top 60 means that only programs that are truly pretenders in a relative sense now get the boot - Wake Forest, BC, etc. Final thought on this: there are 32 NFL teams now. How much money will be available based upon the brand strength driving the funding pool? Bottomline: it may be closer to 40 than to 60 when the reset comes.

There may end up being some combination of schools outside of the top schools that find a way to keep their alumni happy by continuing to play football against like minded institutions without financially bleeding to death. Perhaps a new "NCAA Division" is formed for them. Perhaps they possibly find it more attractive to park their basketball and olympic sports in a conference like the Big East regardless of what solutions arise for their football programs. Maybe. Not a given, but a possibility. I would be the first to agree with you that the logical first scenario to look at for them would be to solve for all sports. We'll just have to see how it shakes out, based upon what dollars will be available to support a particular athletic funding strategy.

Interestingly, I recently came across an opinion piece on a message board that was posted by a Duke fan who was suggesting that the Big East could become a viable landing spot for Duke. Yes, Duke. I've read this same sentiment on the Syracuse board, though you also find a number of head knockers over there who act like they could or should find their way into the B1G. Of course, fan delusion doesn't factor into what will or will not eventually happen.

It's going to look like one thing if programs find a way to keep it all together. It's going to look like another thing if programs find a way to effectively bifurcate it.

The Big East has to keep doing Big East things: 6+ teams into the NCAAT every year, a packed BET at MSG. Great games. Pitino waking up SJU. Georgetown coming back to life. Keeping UCONN for now is a blessing, even though it means putting up with their cranky fan base.

I see a path through for Xavier because I see a path through for the Big East, and because I trust that Sean Miller will keep the passion and fire burning inside of him for the next 10 to 15 years. And now is as good a time as any to count our blessings. Xavier earned its way into the Big East with the C7. I can't imagine being on the outside looking in at this point, or remaining on the outside with no relief in sight.

[UCGRAD4X]

Duke's football is getting more competitive. They would need to go indie.
The onerous ACC grant of rights makes that very unlikely.

The one thing keeping NCAA from approaching an NFL model - the NCAA does not have a draft.

[waggy]

I'm not optimistic Dash. If there is a true separation of say 48 programs (ie, a P2), the left behind football programs are going to go hunting for brands and audience. NYC, Philly, DC, UConn. And if you look at it from those 4 programs perspective, they would be leaving to be joined with programs with larger fan bases than the other BE programs. And given streaming that's going to be uber important. My hope is that they aren't able to force Notre Dame into the B1G or SEC. As long as they're not in one of those conferences a true P2 can't be achieved, and stops all the other dominos.

[X-band '01]

Duke's football is getting more competitive. They would need to go indie.
The onerous ACC grant of rights makes that very unlikely.

The one thing keeping NCAA from approaching an NFL model - the NCAA does not have a draft.

I wonder how many schools it would take to amend the ACC Grant of Rights clause; is it possible that 2 or 3 schools are the ones gumming up the works and essentially locking up Florida State and Clemson in the process?

[xudash]

I'm not optimistic Dash. If there is a true separation of say 48 programs (ie, a P2), the left behind football programs are going to go hunting for brands and audience. NYC, Philly, DC, UConn. And if you look at it from those 4 programs perspective, they would be leaving to be joined with programs with larger fan bases than the other BE programs. And given streaming that's going to be uber important. My hope is that they aren't able to force Notre Dame into the B1G or SEC. As long as they're not in one of those conferences a true P2 can't be achieved, and stops all the other dominos.

Waggy, I certainly see your point. It is a reasonable possibility.

Maybe I cannot see the hurricane coming in from the left or the avalanche coming in from the right. We’ll see. What will football look like for teams 49 and up? What will the tv (streaming/linear mix) look like for those schools? Wake and Duke and BC and Syracuse aren’t going to be subsidizing via student fees.

Again, who knows. But, I like that we’ll have 6 or so years to continue to build our brand and for the Big East brand to build overall. It could be a problem having a football program if you’re outside of the club. Finally, maybe true alignment of interests will still be worth something - private, Catholic schools which hoop.

[sirthought]

How do you get six years? The contract ends in two.

And now that Big 10 and Big 12 are larger, they'll have more games filling inventory on Fox and CBS (and ESPN for Big 12). The next two seasons should be interesting to see if an emphasis changes or remains on FS1. Maybe more games will be aired on FS2.

The Big East is going to get a deal from someone. They won't be in the cold. But no home run in this big money landscape. It's going to be a different kind of exposure profile that will effect recruiting moving forward. The coaches. The name recognition based on history. Those things might help us for a bit, but not for the long haul.

The prime networks won't need to fill their Tuesday evening with a Butler/Seton Hall game that no one wants to see other than their own fans. That's going to end up on a streaming outlet. No proof of that, but it's my feeling.

[xudash]

How do you get six years? The contract ends in two.

And now that Big 10 and Big 12 are larger, they'll have more games filling inventory on Fox and CBS (and ESPN for Big 12). The next two seasons should be interesting to see if an emphasis changes or remains on FS1. Maybe more games will be aired on FS2.

The Big East is going to get a deal from someone. They won't be in the cold. But no home run in this big money landscape. It's going to be a different kind of exposure profile that will effect recruiting moving forward. The coaches. The name recognition based on history. Those things might help us for a bit, but not for the long haul.

The prime networks won't need to fill their Tuesday evening with a Butler/Seton Hall game that no one wants to see other than their own fans. That's going to end up on a streaming outlet. No proof of that, but it's my feeling.

I'm well aware of when the current media agreement ends. My "six years" comment is about the next agreement, insofar as I hope it's at least that long. I would like to see the Big East enter into the 30's under what will hopefully be a stable, respectable media deal.

Yes, the B1G and the Big 12 are getting bigger. But the last time I checked, USC, UCLA, Oregon and Washington are still located on the left coast and their time zone isn't changing. Arizona, ASU, Colorado and Utah also won't be sliding into a bunch of eastern time zone slots either. I should clarify that this holds for when they're playing their home games. When they come east to play marquee games, then, yes, I agree with your concern. Ohio State versus USC in basketball where before perhaps a Butler v Seton Hall tilt would have made FS1's schedule. Overall, net new competition isn't what this is about, insofar as we have football schools leaving one conference to join another conference. And scheduling for those two conferences isn't going to be a slam dunk.

At least the Big East's viewership numbers are certainly trending the right way, notwithstanding the fact that we can't feed average student body populations of 30k+ at them to goose them up more. The BIG EAST conference is highly respected in the sport. MSG is a major asset that we've signed back up for a while. And UCONN, Pitino, etc. are the other factors that improve our position.

Val Ackerman is very sharp. She knows how to negotiate these deals. Yes, we will get a deal from someone. It should increase from its present amount per school. We get to sit around now, waiting to see whether or not it turns out to be a single, double, triple or homerun.

Last thing: It appears very clear that bigtime college football will do whatever it is going to do to arrive at its true market value. It will do that at the expense of tradition and it will do that at the expense of the student-athlete (yeah, right, in this case). In other words, more hell will break loose next decade as streaming really begins to factor into the media equation. However, I do see the NCAAT remaining intact. It will continue to get harder for mid-major and low-major conferences to get teams into it that are other than their conference champions, but I just don't see the tournament getting wrecked over moves caused by football.

If and when the ACC implodes from its current form, it will at the very least lose UNC, Florida State, Clemson and Miami. It could very well lose UVA, G-Tech and Duke. Maybe the remnants move to a hybrid structured Big East rather than backfilling the ACC with UCONN and...? This isn't over by a long shot. At some point, certain athletic departments are going to be fully exposed, because they'll no longer be operating under a "P5" media deal subsidy. Football won't be a strength at that point; football will be a problem to resolve somehow, especially if some new type of division is formed where there no longer is any access to the CFP. Schools like Washington State and Oregon State are getting burnt now. It's not unreasonable to think that such a fate is waiting down the road for programs like NC State, Iowa State and Kansas State, let alone Wake, BC, etc. At that point, they won't be solving for football, because there won't be viable solutions for that sport at those schools.

[MHettel]

I follow realignment, but dont know the details on TV money, viewership, networks, contract lengths, etc...

So, simple question. When I hear that "each team in the Big Whatever conference is getting 30M a year" is that JUST for football (conference games only I assume?) or does that included Basketball as well (conference games only I assume).

I'm interested, because I hear these BEast Numbers like $8M per year which is obviously BBall only. So I assume a conference like the Big Whatever would value the basketball portion of their payout at around the same amount (or more), so does that mean that football is accounting for 22M per year?

I would think that FB would generally be worth 3-4 times more than BBall. Although typical conference schedules for BBall include usually 16+ games and football is usually about 7-8 games. So, double the programming for 1/3 of the money.

Am I thinking about this right?

[sirthought]

I'm assuming there won't be a gap between the end of the current media agreement and the next one. The Big East is as much about the union as it is any given school and the members know that. Negotiations are probably happening on some level already.

Media outlets have roadmaps for what technology improvements they are working towards, and are talking the conferences about what possibilities exist with what fanbase.

Companies like Prime, Apple, Google, and ESPN are strategizing how they can best package a subscription to be compelling in this evolving landscape. Fox, CBS, and NBC need to figure out if they'll start to archive games like ESPN or just stream.

But something like a league pass will likely become a constant in college sports.

[sirthought]

I follow realignment, but dont know the details on TV money, viewership, networks, contract lengths, etc...

So, simple question. When I hear that "each team in the Big Whatever conference is getting 30M a year" is that JUST for football (conference games only I assume?) or does that included Basketball as well (conference games only I assume).

I'm interested, because I hear these BEast Numbers like $8M per year which is obviously BBall only. So I assume a conference like the Big Whatever would value the basketball portion of their payout at around the same amount (or more), so does that mean that football is accounting for 22M per year?

I would think that FB would generally be worth 3-4 times more than BBall. Although typical conference schedules for BBall include usually 16+ games and football is usually about 7-8 games. So, double the programming for 1/3 of the money.

Am I thinking about this right?

No those dollars are for all sports with the school. WBB. Volleyball. Basebase. Softball. Swimming. Etc.

It's up to the school how they allocating those resources.

[UCGRAD4X]

I'm well aware of when the current media agreement ends. My "six years" comment is about the next agreement, insofar as I hope it's at least that long. I would like to see the Big East enter into the 30's under what will hopefully be a stable, respectable media deal.

A lot can happen between this year and the next. My guess is that FS1 will wait and see what else changes. I am hoping there will be a lull after the recent tsunami. Who the f knows?

I can even see, down the road when the upper echelon schools start demanding a bigger slice of the pie. As the also-rans' portions shrink, and sniffing any postseason is nil, even lower tier bowls because they will struggle to qualify - there might be a backlash. Getting a slot as a crappy conference champ, or even a playoff spot with no chance of getting anywhere past the first round, is better than total obscurity.

I can't see this happening anytime soon.

Who the f knows?

These times they are a changin'.

[waggy]

So much of what might happen depends on ND. If you say that when the ACC gets raided 7 schools are for sure gone... Both FLA's, both VA's, Both NC's and Clemson... That leaves them with Wake, Duke, BC, Cuse and 'Ville. If ND stills has a good separate contract with NBC, can they work with that? Could the ACC then maybe add a few B12 schools? Also, does UNC then even leave the ACC? They seem pretty stubborn, and don't seem to GAF about leaving for the P2. Then the other consideration is how big does the SEC go? It doesn't look like there are really 8 more teams that would suit them. Still just a ton of permutations that need to get figured out.

[UCGRAD4X]

So much of what might happen depends on ND. If you say that when the ACC gets raided 7 schools are for sure gone... Both FLA's, both VA's, Both NC's and Clemson... That leaves them with Wake, Duke, BC, Cuse and 'Ville. If ND stills has a good separate contract with NBC, can they work with that? Could the ACC then maybe add a few B12 schools? Also, does UNC then even leave the ACC? They seem pretty stubborn, and don't seem to GAF about leaving for the P2. Then the other consideration is how big does the SEC go? It doesn't look like there are really 8 more teams that would suit them. Still just a ton of permutations that need to get figured out.

Not sure how so much hinges on Notre Dame. If they can get even close to SEC / B1G money - $75 mill say, They will remain independent. If so many teams leave the ACC, ND will have a great case for leaving as well without swallowing a huge chunk of do-re-mi. Either the conference will die on the vine or there may even be some litigation. There may even be some clause in the conference by-laws that addresses the raping and pillaging that will have taken place.

[waggy]

If they can get even close to SEC / B1G money - $75 mill say, They will remain independent. If so many teams leave the ACC, ND will have a great case for leaving as well without swallowing a huge chunk of do-re-mi.

This makes no sense. Where are they going to leave to? If they have an independent contract, they need an "independent" conference association. The B1G isn't going to take their Olympic sports without the football program.

[MHettel]

This makes no sense. Where are they going to leave to? If they have an independent contract, they need an "independent" conference association. The B1G isn't going to take their Olympic sports without the football program.

Yeah I can’t think of any conference with solid Olympic sports and BBall and doesn’t have football.

[MHettel]

No those dollars are for all sports with the school. WBB. Volleyball. Basebase. Softball. Swimming. Etc.

It's up to the school how they allocating those resources.

You misunderstand the question. It’s not how the schools use the money that I’m asking about. It’s about how the networks value basketball vs football

[MADXSTER]

Are they now working to have a different governing body? Is that what I'm seeing?

[waggy]

Yeah I can’t think of any conference with solid Olympic sports and BBall and doesn’t have football.

Yes I've thought of it as well of course. Not impossible, but I think the chances are really low.

[Xville]

I think we can put the nd in whatever conference talk to rest. There is zero reason for them to outside of the college football playoff saying you have to join a conference or else!

Otherwise they are going to get 60 or more million a year with their next contract and get to the playoff most of the time and not have to share that money with others in a conference.

I think zero conferences is more likely than nd football ever joining a conference.

[sirthought]

If ND doesn't get onboard with someone in the next round I think everyone else is going to tell them to take a flying F and die trying to survive.

NBC can't keep spending on that boat anchor at the risk of having no other assets.

[D-West & PO-Z]

If ND doesn't get onboard with someone in the next round I think everyone else is going to tell them to take a flying F and die trying to survive.

NBC can't keep spending on that boat anchor at the risk of having no other assets.

I feel like I have been hearing this for a couple decades.

[Xville]

I feel like I have been hearing this for a couple decades.

Yeah considering they are certainly top ten if not top five in viewership, don’t think they have an issue. If nbc doesn’t win the rights, someone else will. I’m no notre dame fan but their brand is hard to deny.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I think the thought of one conference missing out on ND football while another gains them would be enough for not everyone to get on board on making ND join a conference.

Like ND is not joining the SEC. What advantage would they have to forcing ND's hand? None.

And it isn't like the top of the SEC is threatened by ND's money meaning more success than them. So I don't see why the other power teams or conferences would force ND into a conference. Makes no sense.

[MHettel]

Yeah considering they are certainly top ten if not top five in viewership, don’t think they have an issue. If nbc doesn’t win the rights, someone else will. I’m no notre dame fan but their brand is hard to deny.

Is that the chicken or the egg?

NBC and ND are aligned. They benefit from each other. Who else benefits from NBC? Who else benefits from ND?

College football will be just fine with NEITHER. Lets say the Big 4 decide to box out ND and make them ineligible for the NC. Well, some fans will be pissed. And those fans watch NBC, so who gives a fuck? The Big 4 don't suffer AT ALL.

So which is it? Is Notre Dame that important that they get special treatment? Or does Notre Dame's special treatment make it seem as if they call the shots?

Think about that.

They are the Emperor with no clothes.

[Xville]

Is that the chicken or the egg?

NBC and ND are aligned. They benefit from each other. Who else benefits from NBC? Who else benefits from ND?

College football will be just fine with NEITHER. Lets say the Big 4 decide to box out ND and make them ineligible for the NC. Well, some fans will be pissed. And those fans watch NBC, so who gives a fuck? The Big 4 don't suffer AT ALL.

So which is it? Is Notre Dame that important that they get special treatment? Or does Notre Dame's special treatment make it seem as if they call the shots?

Think about that.

They are the Emperor with no clothes.

Again, no fan of notre dame but they are a gigantic brand. There is no denying that. I really don’t see the conferences doing that. Why would they? It makes zero sense. Join a conference or else!!! Ok they join the big 10 for example. How’s that benefit any of the other three conferences?

[MHettel]

Again, no fan of notre dame but they are a gigantic brand. There is no denying that. I really don’t see the conferences doing that. Why would they? It makes zero sense. Join a conference or else!!! Ok they join the big 10 for example. How’s that benefit any of the other three conferences?

Chicken or the egg?

[Xville]

Chicken or the egg?

It doesn’t matter. If it’s not nbc, it’s going to be another media deal and they will still be just as big. Yes back in the day when there were three channels, nbc probably helped notre dame’s stature. At this point, notre dame stands on its own imo

[D-West & PO-Z]

Chicken or the egg?

Both, either, neither......doesn't matter. ND ain't going anywhere.

[D-West & PO-Z]

College football will be just fine with NEITHER. Lets say the Big 4 decide to box out ND and make them ineligible for the NC. Well, some fans will be pissed. And those fans watch NBC, so who gives a fuck? The Big 4 don't suffer AT ALL.




This will not likely ever happen because if the Big 4 did this it would force ND's hand to join a conference and in that scenario all 4 would be clamoring for ND. The biggest of the Big 4 would have almost a 0% chance of landing ND. So why would they enrich their competitors?

Again, as I said before, it makes no sense. Unless you are of the belief that ND would be boxed out, want to join and none of the 4 would be interested in ND, which makes even less sense.

[sirthought]

My contention is that if there's not a natural offer/acceptance that happens with them they'd just shut them out. Scheduling with the top three or four conferences has to happen for ND to survive.

And it's pretty easy to see what they'd gain. Either one of them gets a program with a great brand. Or the top conferences don't have to worry about a network paying them valuable resources that could go elsewhere and the school shrinks into a fallen story.

[UCGRAD4X]

Pete Bevacqua is the incoming AD and comes from NBC as their Sports President. Swarbrick has always said, as long as they are fiscally competitive and have a path to the NC, they will remain independent. How much that changes with the NBC connection should be interesting. NBC has also partnered with the B1G to show one primetime game on Saturdays. ND will play USC every other year in prime time at home. They finish with Ohio State this year. They play Purdue in 25 and Michigan St. in 26. They don't play most of their home games in prime time otherwise.

[UCGRAD4X]

Their schedule next year is not going to be as impressive, so there won't be much clamoring for Northern Illinois or Miami of Ohio. They do play Purdue next year too but in W. Lafayette.

[D-West & PO-Z]

My contention is that if there's not a natural offer/acceptance that happens with them they'd just shut them out.

And it's pretty easy to see what they'd gain. Either one of them gets a program with a great brand.

You second sentence, and specifically the bolded part, is why the first sentence won't ever happen.

[xavierj]

Their schedule next year is not going to be as impressive, so there won't be much clamoring for Northern Illinois or Miami of Ohio. They do play Purdue next year too but in W. Lafayette.

They also play Texas A&M, Stanford, Florida State and USC. USC and A&M are on the road.

[JTG]

This makes no sense. Where are they going to leave to? If they have an independent contract, they need an "independent" conference association. The B1G isn't going to take their Olympic sports without the football program.

The Big East, of course!!!!

[D-West & PO-Z]

They also play Texas A&M, Stanford, Florida State and USC. USC and A&M are on the road.

Ha, minor details!

[GoMuskies]

They also play Texas A&M, Stanford, Florida State and USC. USC and A&M are on the road.

I remember way back when those used to be good teams. USC still has a good team occasionally. Maybe Bobby Petrino helps A&M to finally fulfill their promise.

[UCGRAD4X]

They also play Texas A&M, Stanford, Florida State and USC. USC and A&M are on the road.

Right. As far as the conflict with prime-time it only applies to B1G. They play every other year at home against USC. That is not as likely to be a conflict since it is a B1G team (it will take some time to get used to that). The away games will not be an issue because the home team determines the broadcast making the NBC deal not as much of an issue. The home games against non B!G opponents are the issue. ND does not often schedule games in that slot anyway. That will further restrict them from doing so.

[xavierj]

Right. As far as the conflict with prime-time it only applies to B1G. They play every other year at home against USC. That is not as likely to be a conflict since it is a B1G team (it will take some time to get used to that). The away games will not be an issue because the home team determines the broadcast making the NBC deal not as much of an issue. The home games against non B!G opponents are the issue. ND does not often schedule games in that slot anyway. That will further restrict them from doing so.

I get what you are saying, Florida state will likely be a top 10 team at home and in Prime time in 2024. I was just responding to the post that their 2024 home schedule didn’t include anyone of value.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I remember way back when those used to be good teams. USC still has a good team occasionally. Maybe Bobby Petrino helps A&M to finally fulfill their promise.

Current AP Rankings
USC #6
FSU #8
A&M #23

[xavierj]

Current AP Rankings
USC #6
FSU #8
A&M #23

Exactly and they are bringing in top recruiting classes as well. A&M had the #1 class in 22, 15 in 23 and currently 7th for 24. They are loaded with money and pouring it into football. Florida State has the 5th ranked 24 class after top 20 classes in 22 and 23.

[GoMuskies]

Current AP Rankings
USC #6
FSU #8
A&M #23

What were they ranked preseason last year?

Texas A&M was #7. Lol

[UCGRAD4X]

I get what you are saying, Florida state will likely be a top 10 team at home and in Prime time in 2024. I was just responding to the post that their 2024 home schedule didn’t include anyone of value.

Got it. Just meant to say it wasn't as competitive. Then again, when you have THE OSU and Clemson (as well as a resurgent USC per usual)....

Not to shabby having NCSt, Tennessee and Pitt - only because they always give the Irish fits.

[D-West & PO-Z]

What were they ranked preseason last year?

Texas A&M was #7. Lol

Yes preseason rankings, I get it, but the original post mentioning these teams was in response to a post that was talking about the insignificance of ND's schedule. ND has teams expected to be very good on the schedule, they can't control if the other teams shit the bed.

[D-West & PO-Z]

What were they ranked preseason last year?

Texas A&M was #7. Lol

But FSU was unranked and finished 11th and USC was ranked 14th and finished 12th.

[GoMuskies]

They're good names, but they've all been tire fires recently. USC may have finally turned things around. I'll believe it when I see it from FSU and A&M.

[JTG]

Got it. Just meant to say it wasn't as competitive. Then again, when you have THE OSU and Clemson (as well as a resurgent USC per usual)....

Not to shabby having NCSt, Tennessee and Pitt - only because they always give the Irish fits.
ND is having big problems selling tickets to their game with Tenn State. First they offered seats for $50. When that didn't work they offered 2 tickets for $100 and free parking (a $40 value). Since that failed to work, this week they are offering 2 tickets for $100, plus free parking, plus 2 18 hole rounds of golf. By next week it might be unlimited concessions.

[UCGRAD4X]

They're good names, but they've all been tire fires recently. USC may have finally turned things around. I'll believe it when I see it from FSU and A&M.

All three have been recruiting at a pretty high level. The talent is there. Using that talent consistently remains to be seen.

[xavierj]

They're good names, but they've all been tire fires recently. USC may have finally turned things around. I'll believe it when I see it from FSU and A&M.

A&M a tire fire? They have one losing season in the toughest conference in the country since they joined the league 12 years ago. They went 9-1 in 2020 and finished 5th in the country. Not sure how that’s a tire fire. Last year was their worst year in a very long time. They should be good this year.

[sirthought]

ACC is pushing towards adding Cal., Standford, and SMU.

[UCGRAD4X]

ND is having big problems selling tickets to their game with Tenn State. First they offered seats for $50. When that didn't work they offered 2 tickets for $100 and free parking (a $40 value). Since that failed to work, this week they are offering 2 tickets for $100, plus free parking, plus 2 18 hole rounds of golf. By next week it might be unlimited concessions.

Since they don't serve beer at ND stadium, the concession deal is not much of a concession.

[sirthought]

Sounds like Notre Dame is having ticket sales issues with more than just the TN ST game. I don't get the popularity of driving to South Bend to see a game.

https://www.onefootdown.com/2023/3/27/23657292/notre-dame-football-attacking-the-attendance-problem-stadium-green-out-home-south-bend-nd-news-irish

[xu82]

Sounds like Notre Dame is having ticket sales issues with more than just the TN ST game. I don't get the popularity of driving to South Bend to see a game.

https://www.onefootdown.com/2023/3/27/23657292/notre-dame-football-attacking-the-attendance-problem-stadium-green-out-home-south-bend-nd-news-irish


I would love to see a game there, but I’ve been to South Bend once (for rugby), and I’m not in a hurry to return. It’s sort of like the Masters located in little old Augusta, except colder.

[X-band '01]

ACC is pushing towards adding Cal., Standford, and SMU.

More like Cal, Stanford and SMU are desperate to join enough to the point where they'll accept very little (or even no) media revenue for the foreseeable future.

[UCGRAD4X]

More like Cal, Stanford and SMU are desperate to join enough to the point where they'll accept very little (or even no) media revenue for the foreseeable future.

One of the reasons ND is for this, besides the $$$, their commitment to play 5 ACC teams each year (avg) would, in essence, be only 4 since they play Stanford every year already. This gives them another option to potentially play a B1G or SEC opponent.

[X-band '01]

Notre Dame is for it, but you also have to lobby holdouts like FSU/Clemson along with North Carolina and NC State to get on board. These are the 4 schools that previously said no to expansion.

[JTG]

Sounds like Notre Dame is having ticket sales issues with more than just the TN ST game. I don't get the popularity of driving to South Bend to see a game.

https://www.onefootdown.com/2023/3/27/23657292/notre-dame-football-attacking-the-attendance-problem-stadium-green-out-home-south-bend-nd-news-irish

Then you must have never been there. A ND/Mich, or ND/USC , or ND/OSU game are all electric atmospheres.

[JTG]

Sounds like Notre Dame is having ticket sales issues with more than just the TN ST game. I don't get the popularity of driving to South Bend to see a game.

https://www.onefootdown.com/2023/3/27/23657292/notre-dame-football-attacking-the-attendance-problem-stadium-green-out-home-south-bend-nd-news-irish

That article didn't take into account the change in game times. It used to be all their games kicked off at 1:30. That made for an easy day trip from Indy, Chi, Det, Milw, and some other towns. Now with 3:30 games or night games, the day trip is out of the question. Back in the day US 31 from Indy to So Bend would be a parade of cars on Sat morning, same with the Indiana Toll Rd from Chicago or Det, or Northern Oh. Also they mentioned hotel prices. There are a number of hotels within 45 minutes of So Bend that are very affordable. And other than the secondary market their tickets are nowhere near NFL prices. You no longer have to be an Alum to buy tickets. Anyone can buy season , partial, or single game tickets.

[bobbiemcgee]

My buddies dad was a prominent Lawyer in Indy. We loaded up his woodie every Friday and headed North after stopping at McD's for bags of fish sandwiches.

[Xuperman]

World record....92,000 pay to see Lady Huskers volleyball match!

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/38294591/nebraska-volleyball-sets-world-record-attendance-women-sporting-event

[UCGRAD4X]

World record....92,000 pay to see Lady Huskers volleyball match!

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/38294591/nebraska-volleyball-sets-world-record-attendance-women-sporting-event

Volleyball

Lincoln Nebraska (which they call the penis of the prairie)

Did not make my bingo card for most attended women's sports event.

[bleedXblue]

World record....92,000 pay to see Lady Huskers volleyball match!

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/38294591/nebraska-volleyball-sets-world-record-attendance-women-sporting-event

Why honestly. Sounds contrived to me.

Unless you have a kid, friend or relative playing it makes no sense to me

[XUGRAD80]

Why honestly. Sounds contrived to me.

Unless you have a kid, friend or relative playing it makes no sense to me

Read the article…..that’s PAID attendance too. Adults $25 and HS students $5. Nebraska is a 5X National Championship school and already held the record for an indoor match. They also have over 300 straight sellouts for volleyball. Seriously popular sport there. Goes way beyond just watching because you have a personal relationship with a player. Kind of like wrestling in Iowa or track and field in Oregon. There are areas of the country that embrace the so called minor sports in a big way.

[muskiefan82]

There are areas of the country that embrace the so called minor sports in a big way.

Like Dayton and Flyer basketball?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Like Dayton and Flyer basketball?

Ha, public reps, the man is holding me down.

[Xville]

Read the article…..that’s PAID attendance too. Adults $25 and HS students $5. Nebraska is a 5X National Championship school and already held the record for an indoor match. They also have over 300 straight sellouts for volleyball. Seriously popular sport there. Goes way beyond just watching because you have a personal relationship with a player. Kind of like wrestling in Iowa or track and field in Oregon. There are areas of the country that embrace the so called minor sports in a big way.

Women’s volleyball is huge here in Louisville as well. Not to the point of Nebraska, but they pretty routinely play in the yum center and fill up at least the lower bowl which is around 14-15k.

They said on sportscenter that it’s surpassed basketball as the most popular women’s sport

[MHettel]

Women’s volleyball is huge here in Louisville as well. Not to the point of Nebraska, but they pretty routinely play in the yum center and fill up at least the lower bowl which is around 14-15k.

They said on sportscenter that it’s surpassed basketball as the most popular women’s sport

I think when a place like Lincoln Nebraska or Louisville can sell out a womens volleyball game, it says alot more about the town than the sport.....

[bleedXblue]

I think when a place like Lincoln Nebraska or Louisville can sell out a womens volleyball game, it says alot more about the town than the sport.....

Exactly

[94GRAD]

I think when a place like Lincoln Nebraska or Louisville can sell out a womens volleyball game, it says alot more about the town than the sport.....


Exactly

Didn't realize you two are misogynists.

[bjf123]

Like Dayton and Flyer basketball?

Well played!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MHettel]

Didn't realize you two are misogynists.

Oh, and i didnt realize you were so fragile.

Whay doesnt New York City, with 18 MILLION People, sell out womens college volleyball games? Cause there is other shit to do! Does that mean there are 18 Million misogynists in NYC?

[xudash]

Like Dayton and Flyer basketball?

If you’re going to bring those bumbling idiots into it, then it would be “embrace, but fail at” - only VD could have a fan base that is loyal to a second rate basketball program.

[GoMuskies]

Oh, and i didnt realize you were so fragile.

Whay doesnt New York City, with 18 MILLION People, sell out womens college volleyball games? Cause there is other shit to do! Does that mean there are 18 Million misogynists in NYC?

I mean, people basically do the same shit everywhere. It's just more expensive and harder to get to in NYC.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I think when a place like Lincoln Nebraska or Louisville can sell out a womens volleyball game, it says alot more about the town than the sport.....


Exactly

"I have no interest in women's volleyball, therefore anyone who does must live in a shitty place....."

Quite the take.

[Xville]

I think when a place like Lincoln Nebraska or Louisville can sell out a womens volleyball game, it says alot more about the town than the sport.....

Wow. Get out of your apparent bubble once in a while. There’s a whole world out there you’re missing.

You have any clue what women’s event is now second ever in attendance? A women’s champions league match in Barcelona.

There’s probably not much to do in Barcelona though. Amirite

[MHettel]

"I have no interest in women's volleyball, therefore anyone who does must live in a shitty place....."

Quite the take.

Is that your interpretation of what I said? Cause that isn't MY interpretation of what I said.

[MHettel]

The Nebraska VolleyBall Story is even BETTER when you dig into it.

- They played Volleyball powerhouse Omaha (never heard of it).
- It was actually a double header with D2 Wayne State playing Nebraska-Kearney
- $25 face value tickets were selling for $400.
- The prior attendance record for Womens Volleyball was 18,755.

other interesting fact not included in the ESPN Article.
- nebraska has 1.961 million people. so about 4.7% of the state's population was there.

[sirthought]

They also had a concert from a country music star after the game. I'm guessing for a certain number of attendees the volleyball was just the warm up act, but why not because they can say they were at a record breaking event.

I applaud the schools for trying to get more fans in front of the sport. It can be exciting at times. I don't think this is sign of a trend in volleyball in any way.

[Xville]

Almost a year old now but some stats on the rise of women’s volleyball. I dunno about anyone else but I’d much rather watch this sport than women’s basketball or soccer for instance. To each their own.

https://www.axios.com/2022/12/07/womens-volleyball-boom-ncaa

[X-band '01]

You look at the Big East, for example, Creighton and Marquette (both Top 20 teams last year) are a country mile above the rest of the league. Xavier is at least in a position where they're competing for 3rd in volleyball versus women's basketball right now where they can't get out of the cellar.

[Masterofreality]

The Nebraska VolleyBall Story is even BETTER when you dig into it.

- They played Volleyball powerhouse Omaha (never heard of it).
- It was actually a double header with D2 Wayne State playing Nebraska-Kearney
- $25 face value tickets were selling for $400.
- The prior attendance record for Womens Volleyball was 18,755.

other interesting fact not included in the ESPN Article.
- nebraska has 1.961 million people. so about 4.7% of the state's population was there.

Plenty of time for people in Nebraska right now.
It’s not corn harvesting season yet.
BTW. I love women’s volleyball.

[Masterofreality]

You look at the Big East, for example, Creighton and Marquette (both Top 20 teams last year) are a country mile above the rest of the league. Xavier is at least in a position where they're competing for 3rd in volleyball versus women's basketball right now where they can't get out of the cellar.

Steve Wolf’s daughter Stevie is a prime player for X.

[GoMuskies]

They also had a concert from a country music star after the game. I'm guessing for a certain number of attendees the volleyball was just the warm up act, but why not because they can say they were at a record breaking event.

I applaud the schools for trying to get more fans in front of the sport. It can be exciting at times. I don't think this is sign of a trend in volleyball in any way.

They sold out before the act was even announced.

[MHettel]

They also had a concert from a country music star after the game. I'm guessing for a certain number of attendees the volleyball was just the warm up act, but why not because they can say they were at a record breaking event.

I applaud the schools for trying to get more fans in front of the sport. It can be exciting at times. I don't think this is sign of a trend in volleyball in any way.

This is actually a key omission from the report. Its a country music concert in NEBRASKA. Tickets were going for a 16X markup.

I get that 90K people showed up. But did they show up for the Volleyball, or for the headline event?

I could play a wiffle ball game in the parking lot of a Taylor Swift concert and claim that 5K people came to watch me....

By they way, yes, womens volleyball is impressive at the highest levels.

Just sayin, when 5% of the state shows up.....there aint much happenin in that state.

[MHettel]

They sold out before the act was even announced.

Skeptical....

[noteggs]

Anyone who had a kid play HS or club volleyball knows what a great sport it is. These girls or guys are true athletes regardless of their position.

The one thing I appreciate about the sport is the net height difference between men and women. I really don’t think it would be as enjoyable watching women playing with a net 7 inches higher IMO.

[GoMuskies]

Skeptical....

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/38271128/nebraska-volleyball-record-crowd-memorial-stadium

Omaha is a great city, by the way. Lincoln is a fine college town. Otherwise, yeah, not a whole lot out there other than our food supply.

ESPN says 82k tickets sold in three days with no musical act announced.

[MHettel]

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/38271128/nebraska-volleyball-record-crowd-memorial-stadium

Omaha is a great city, by the way. Lincoln is a fine college town. Otherwise, yeah, not a whole lot out there other than our food supply.

ESPN says 82k tickets sold in three days with no musical act announced.

Sigh….just read the article. It literally says they needed the musical act to sell the tickets. But whatever

[X-band '01]

Interesting - Spectrum just yanked all the ESPN channels off the air at 8 PM tonight.

Good to see they're tired of football as well.

EDIT: All the Disney/ESPN channels currently off the air.

[Xville]

Sigh….just read the article. It literally says they needed the musical act to sell the tickets. But whatever

Uh no read it again. That’s not anywhere close to what was said. It said 1.) 82k tickets were sold before an act was announced and 2.) the volleyball coach said he would only agree to play at the stadium if a musical act was part of it because he personally was worried that tickets wouldn’t sell. And it’s Scotty mcrerry for f sake. Not like it’s Kenny chesney or luke Bryan. It’s a b lister at absolute best.

[GoMuskies]

Almost a year old now but some stats on the rise of women’s volleyball. I dunno about anyone else but I’d much rather watch this sport than women’s basketball or soccer for instance. To each their own.

https://www.axios.com/2022/12/07/womens-volleyball-boom-ncaa

College volleyball is pretty cool. Not as cool as, say....college gymnastics, of course, but pretty cool.

[MHettel]

Uh no read it again. That’s not anywhere close to what was said. It said 1.) 82k tickets were sold before an act was announced and 2.) the volleyball coach said he would only agree to play at the stadium if a musical act was part of it because he personally was worried that tickets wouldn’t sell. And it’s Scotty mcrerry for f sake. Not like it’s Kenny chesney or luke Bryan. It’s a b lister at absolute best.

You make my point. They had to have a headliner to draw that crowd. The coach said as much.

It doesn’t matter that they didn’t say WHO the headliner would be.

And also, I have no idea ho Scotty McReary is. But I also bet Lincoln Nebraska isn’t a normal stop for ANY top touring groups. It coulda been a Kenny Rodgers tribute band and it woulda drew.

[Masterofreality]

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/38271128/nebraska-volleyball-record-crowd-memorial-stadium

Omaha is a great city, by the way. Lincoln is a fine college town. Otherwise, yeah, not a whole lot out there other than our food supply.

ESPN says 82k tickets sold in three days with no musical act announced.

All of this is true. Omaha is great and I have a cousin who lives in Lincoln. I have a family cemetery out in the middle of a cornfield outside of Lexington in Dawson County. It truly is a superb college town.

[Xavgrad08]

Sounds like Cal, Stanford and SMU are heading to the ACC.

[MHettel]

Sounds like Cal, Stanford and SMU are heading to the ACC.

SMU not receiving ANY TV revenue for 9 years. How desperately did they want to move?

Also, looks like the vote was NOT unanimous. In most of these situations, the ugly discussions happen behind closed doors and then the vote is taken and its "unanimous" to avoid any appearance that not everyone is on the same page. this 12-3 vote very clearly shows that not everyone is on the same page....

It doesnt really make sense to me. Clemson, UNC and Florida State are the biggest football properties in the conference and were basically ALREADY annoyed with the ACC and then the ACC decides to expand despite their objections. This will only aggravate them further.

The whole idea of the ACC expanding was to ADDRESS the unrest of FSU, UNC and Clemson and they end up doing it even though those teams voted against it?

Does the ACC realize they might have just traded FSU, UNC and Clemson for Cal, Stanford and SMU? this is just dumb.

i expect FSU to lead the way OUT of the ACC and casue even MORE chaos.

[Fireball]

I find women's basketball boring. I find women's volleyball anything but. That may have something to do with the fact that I've had a daughter play club volleyball for the last 6 years, but I do really like the sport.

Honestly, I'm glad for that sport to get some deserved pub.

[Xville]

SMU not receiving ANY TV revenue for 9 years. How desperately did they want to move?

Also, looks like the vote was NOT unanimous. In most of these situations, the ugly discussions happen behind closed doors and then the vote is taken and its "unanimous" to avoid any appearance that not everyone is on the same page. this 12-3 vote very clearly shows that not everyone is on the same page....

It doesnt really make sense to me. Clemson, UNC and Florida State are the biggest football properties in the conference and were basically ALREADY annoyed with the ACC and then the ACC decides to expand despite their objections. This will only aggravate them further.

The whole idea of the ACC expanding was to ADDRESS the unrest of FSU, UNC and Clemson and they end up doing it even though those teams voted against it?

Does the ACC realize they might have just traded FSU, UNC and Clemson for Cal, Stanford and SMU? this is just dumb.

i expect FSU to lead the way OUT of the ACC and casue even MORE chaos.

Florida state already has one foot out the door. Clemson probably as well but they are being more quiet about it. This is more about keeping the acc together after they leave, not trying to keep them. There’s really nothing the acc can do to keep Clemson and Florida state unless the rest of the league kisses their ring and take unequal shares.

[Masterofreality]

The PAC 12 is now the PAC 2. Oregon State and Washington State.
May as well just put a directional notation at the front of the school name.

[GoMuskies]

The PAC 12 is now the PAC 2. Oregon State and Washington State.
May as well just put a directional notation at the front of the school name.

It's actually a great opportunity for the MWC to shed some of their dead weight by "moving" all the schools they want to keep together over to the Pac-12.

[MHettel]

Florida state already has one foot out the door. Clemson probably as well but they are being more quiet about it. This is more about keeping the acc together after they leave, not trying to keep them. There’s really nothing the acc can do to keep Clemson and Florida state unless the rest of the league kisses their ring and take unequal shares.

so, the agitated group led by FSU would be even MORE agitated with this move and it likely further motivates them to leave. Is that the premise?

But then explain Notre Dame's logic. They must have been one of the teams that voted FOR the expansion. And that vote may lead to FSU, Clemson and UNC leaving the ACC. And those are the best football teams in the ACC. And ND has a commitment to play like 5 games a year against ACC teams. So the ACC will not only be losing their best 3 teams, but the rest of the league will suffer as well without the opportunity to grab any marquee wins. So the rest of the ACC would amount to a mid-major conference. So, how could that be good for ND? to have half of their schedule playing mid-majors? It really makes no sense for ND to do anythuing that weakens the ACC Football profile.

Confusing to me.

[xavierj]

so, the agitated group led by FSU would be even MORE agitated with this move and it likely further motivates them to leave. Is that the premise?

But then explain Notre Dame's logic. They must have been one of the teams that voted FOR the expansion. And that vote may lead to FSU, Clemson and UNC leaving the ACC. And those are the best football teams in the ACC. And ND has a commitment to play like 5 games a year against ACC teams. So the ACC will not only be losing their best 3 teams, but the rest of the league will suffer as well without the opportunity to grab any marquee wins. So the rest of the ACC would amount to a mid-major conference. So, how could that be good for ND? to have half of their schedule playing mid-majors? It really makes no sense for ND to do anythuing that weakens the ACC Football profile.

Confusing to me.

I don’t see any of them leaving any time soon. Clemson and FSU want to get to the football playoff and they have a better road not having to play the gauntlet that is the SEC.

[Xville]

so, the agitated group led by FSU would be even MORE agitated with this move and it likely further motivates them to leave. Is that the premise?

But then explain Notre Dame's logic. They must have been one of the teams that voted FOR the expansion. And that vote may lead to FSU, Clemson and UNC leaving the ACC. And those are the best football teams in the ACC. And ND has a commitment to play like 5 games a year against ACC teams. So the ACC will not only be losing their best 3 teams, but the rest of the league will suffer as well without the opportunity to grab any marquee wins. So the rest of the ACC would amount to a mid-major conference. So, how could that be good for ND? to have half of their schedule playing mid-majors? It really makes no sense for ND to do anythuing that weakens the ACC Football profile.

Confusing to me.

Fsu is going to leave anyways. As far as Notre dame, they don’t care since they aren’t a football member and can play Clemson, Florida state when they leave the league anyways. Notre dame can make their own schedule outside of the 5 acc games and make them as tough or as easy as they want. Teams aren’t turning down notre dame. Plus they play Stanford most years so that can just now be one of their acc games.

This is a win-win for notre dame. They don’t have to be in what may turn out to be a meh league but make even more money off it in the short term.

[UCGRAD4X]

I think (maybe) the FSU threat might have been a bit of a negotiating point. They can get the benefit of increased revenue and still vote against and to not seem to flip-flop.

I also agree ND's advantage is added revenue and an opportunity to keep Stanford on the schedule and only have 4 ACC teams to play each year. The 5 teams a year deal was stupid IMHO. I can't wait for them to be free of that deal. Unfortunately I have a long wait.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Aren't the ACC schools locked into the ACC for a while anyway?

SMU gets NO revenue for 9 years and Cal and Stanford I think get a 25% share for 9 years and the ACC gets more money from ESPN? Doesn't seem terrible for the ACC even though the schools make no sense geographically. That ship sailed long ago though.

Current ACC Football teams only has to go to bay area every other year commissioner said. Wonder about the other sports though.

Brady Quinn said on the radio today that SMU is swimming in donor money and they basically don't want to be left behind in the long run so the move made sense for them. Not sure if he's exaggerating or that really is true donor money wise.

[X-band '01]

Yeah, I get a feeling they'll be able to scratch a check to the American for the exit fee like it's laundry change for them.

To me, another interesting aspect is what happens to the Pac-12 NCAA Tournament credits (granted, there's not much there compared to other major conferences). If all other 10 schools leave it behind, do Oregon State and Washington State split it among themselves if they remain independent?

[xudash]

Aren't the ACC schools locked into the ACC for a while anyway?

SMU gets NO revenue for 9 years and Cal and Stanford I think get a 25% share for 9 years and the ACC gets more money from ESPN? Doesn't seem terrible for the ACC even though the schools make no sense geographically. That ship sailed long ago though.

Current ACC Football teams only has to go to bay area every other year commissioner said. Wonder about the other sports though.

Brady Quinn said on the radio today that SMU is swimming in donor money and they basically don't want to be left behind in the long run so the move made sense for them. Not sure if he's exaggerating or that really is true donor money wise.

The SMU information is a little misleading insofar as they have agreed to pass on the media distribution (ESPN) money for nine years. However, they get to participate in the other conference income streams. And, as you noted, it’s a very well healed school: the boosters are going to run wild there.

Also, yes to your point about FSU, in particular, as well as Clemson, UNC and Miami being locked in for a while. The GOR is the real deal. We know that now, especially given that FSU attempted to engage JP Morgan to help them with a private equity financing structure to exit the ACC. They couldn’t make that work.

In my opinion, this is a disaster for that conference. Yes, there is some extra money as a result of forcing ESPN’s contractual hand about expansion, but it still is not going to materially close the gap between the ACC and the two behemoth conferences.

Once again, I believe we are seeing the table set for the next stage of realignment to take place in the next decade. The schools that matter will survive and thrive. The pretenders are headed to the backseat in some fashion. And tradition and a number of rivalries will mostly be toast.

[waggy]

My spitball of the total exit cost for an ACC member in 2030... $350M. By then B1G annual payouts will be pushing $100M per year. The B1G would bring in FSU at full member rate, but other than them? Clemson? IDK. You almost have to get full share to pay off the exit fees.

Really interested in the length of Notre Dame's next media deal.

[UCGRAD4X]

ESPN has a clause to renegotiate the ACC deal if the membership falls below a certain number. Adding the three schools ensures that remains in place if three others bolt.

[X-band '01]

I should make a correction to something I posted a couple of days ago - it was actually Disney/ESPN who pulled their channels off Spectrum late Thursday night. From what I read, one of the major sticking points is Spectrum trying to get a discounted ESPN+/Disney+ tier in for their customers, but Disney is playing hardball on that front. So now Spectrum is playing hardball in that they're floating the idea of making this separation permanent.

This would be the first major cable provider I could think of that would just tell ESPN to shove it when it comes to current contract renegotiations. You'd still be able to watch ESPN+ content if you simply had the ESPN/Disney bundle, but you'd have to scramble for another TV provider if you were to give up on Spectrum entirely.

[JTG]

My spitball of the total exit cost for an ACC member in 2030... $350M. By then B1G annual payouts will be pushing $100M per year. The B1G would bring in FSU at full member rate, but other than them? Clemson? IDK. You almost have to get full share to pay off the exit fees.

Really interested in the length of Notre Dame's next media deal.

The only thing that could mess with ND's football independence is the collapse of the ACC. They have manageable travel for non-revenue sports and basketball with the ACC. They have some football games to plug into their schedule, and a partial money stream. And an independent money stream from NBC. And when the current NBC contract runs out they will just negotiate a new one.

[noteggs]

Interesting take from Norlander on what it might mean for ACC basketball

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/acc-adding-stanford-cal-and-smu-means-the-conferences-days-of-being-an-elite-basketball-league-are-over/

[UCGRAD4X]

The only thing that could mess with ND's football independence is the collapse of the ACC. They have manageable travel for non-revenue sports and basketball with the ACC. They have some football games to plug into their schedule, and a partial money stream. And an independent money stream from NBC. And when the current NBC contract runs out they will just negotiate a new one.

I disagree. I think the collapse of the ACC would give Notre Dame an opportunity to plant its olympic sports in the Big East and not have the football program saddled to 5 ACC teams every year.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Interesting take from Norlander on what it might mean for ACC basketball

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/acc-adding-stanford-cal-and-smu-means-the-conferences-days-of-being-an-elite-basketball-league-are-over/

Good article, thanks for posting.

[MHettel]

I disagree. I think the collapse of the ACC would give Notre Dame an opportunity to plant its olympic sports in the Big East and not have the football program saddled to 5 ACC teams every year.

Yup

The deal that ND struck with the ACC looked pretty good AT THE TIME, when there were 5 “major” conferences and only 4 spots for the National Championship. The 5 conferences could all claim to have at least 2 and I’m some cases more that 2 nationally relevant football teams. The Texas and Oklahoma went to the SEC (that can now claim upwards of 6 “National brands”, and then USC and UCLA to the Big 10 ( who can claim 4 if not 5), then the aftershock moves that are largely insignificant individually, but on a whole resulted in the PAC 2 being launched.

Now there are 4 “major” conferences with 2 of them clearly on top. ND is now affiliated with one of the second tier conferences that seemingly just got weaker by adding some dead weight.

And the NC playoffs is now 12 teams.

So what looked like a good deal when they signed is certainly less than ideal now. I still don’t know why ND agreed to this recent expansion, knowing it further distances FSU and Clemson from the ACC. Maybe they have an out in their deal somewhere…but need something to happen to trigger it.

I’ve LOOONG predicted ND to the Big East and Fox using that as an entry point to steal ND football from NBC
I hate ND football. But honestly would kind of adopt them as the BE representation for major football if they joined

[sirthought]

Think back to when SMU was in Conference USA, then the American, and even though they had coaches like Larry Brown and his disciples, they were just sort of average. The ACC might be in flux, but it's a big jump for them. And it wasn't like they weren't investing in their program, but this conference switch could mean positive things for them.

[X-band '01]

I prefer to think back to when Dave Bliss was head coach in the 80s. SMU had a couple of NCAA Tournament teams back then, but it turns out Bliss was involved in paying a few players on the side. They were never sanctioned because the NCAA was too busy nuking their football program back into the Stone Age.

[sirthought]

The Matt Norlander opinion piece is an interesting take. Lots of good points on how these moves make little sense. And maybe the ACC is done as we know it. But if adding these three schools screw the teams traditionally at the top, why is the Big 10 and SEC not having the same hand wringing?

I think from a basketball perspective Big 12 is going to really take off, but we have a lot transition to still see how recruiting is effective. ACC still have great media exposure, great facilities, and a lot of recruiting advantages. As long as they keep winning at the top, that might not hurt them nationally. And these new teams could rise up to meet the new challenge too.

[MHettel]

The Matt Norlander opinion piece is an interesting take. Lots of good points on how these moves make little sense. And maybe the ACC is done as we know it. But if adding these three schools screw the teams traditionally at the top, why is the Big 10 and SEC not having the same hand wringing?

I think from a basketball perspective Big 12 is going to really take off, but we have a lot transition to still see how recruiting is effective. ACC still have great media exposure, great facilities, and a lot of recruiting advantages. As long as they keep winning at the top, that might not hurt them nationally. And these new teams could rise up to meet the new challenge too.

I don’t understand the hand wringing comment. The SEC is adding Oklahoma and Texas. That’s a plus.

The Big 10 added the 4 biggest brands from the PAC 12. Why would they hand wring about that?

The ACC has internal strife and then adds new dead weight. That’s when the hand wringing comes in.

[JTG]

Do I like College Football? Yes, Will I watch any game just because it's on? No. I need some type of personal interest in a game. Chances are I'll watch a USC game, or maybe UCLA, but I'll probably never watch Oregon or Wash, just like I'll probably never watch Rutgers, Maryland, Illinois, Nebraska.

[xavierj]

The Matt Norlander opinion piece is an interesting take. Lots of good points on how these moves make little sense. And maybe the ACC is done as we know it. But if adding these three schools screw the teams traditionally at the top, why is the Big 10 and SEC not having the same hand wringing?

I think from a basketball perspective Big 12 is going to really take off, but we have a lot transition to still see how recruiting is effective. ACC still have great media exposure, great facilities, and a lot of recruiting advantages. As long as they keep winning at the top, that might not hurt them nationally. And these new teams could rise up to meet the new challenge too.

I think basketball will take a big hit as they get too big. There will be years where you don’t even play members of your conference and travel will be awful. In the Big 12 there will also been dead weight at the bottom and rivalries will be tough to come by. Fan interest will decline.

[UCGRAD4X]

I think basketball will take a big hit as they get too big. There will be years where you don’t even play members of your conference and travel will be awful. In the Big 12 there will also been dead weight at the bottom and rivalries will be tough to come by. Fan interest will decline.

Interesting take. As fan interest declines, big dollar media deals may also begin to wane.

This all does give one the sense that this whole manic pendulum swing will eventually necessitate a gravitation pull in the other direction.

[JTG]

BIG 12 and ACC dropped some turds yesterday. N Ill. beat BC, and collected $1million. TCU lost to Col & Baylor lost to Tx State (Who?).

[X-band '01]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEbN6Vnr1g8

Have you never heard of the Texas State Fighting Armadillos?

[MHettel]

Can’t wait for those 4 pm start times for the UW basketball games out here in Seattle

[xavierj]

BIG 12 and ACC dropped some turds yesterday. N Ill. beat BC, and collected $1million. TCU lost to Col & Baylor lost to Tx State (Who?).

Texas Tech lost to Wyoming as well.

[D-West & PO-Z]

They're good names, but they've all been tire fires recently. USC may have finally turned things around. I'll believe it when I see it from FSU and A&M.

FSU with a statement win early on. Only 1 week, but heck of a start for them.

[xu82]

FSU with a statement win early on. Only 1 week, but heck of a start for them.

They stole LSU’s lunch money, and there was nothing LSU could do about it. I missed the early part while out to dinner, but late in the game it must have been painful if you are an LSU fan. Nothing is worse than them telling you they are going to run all over you, then doing it with little hope of you stopping them. It looked like Men vs boys late in the game a few times. Maybe I just got an odd impression? Let’s see how things play out but I did not expect that blowout.

[GoMuskies]

Jordan Travis was in Bobby Petrino's last class at Louisville. How is he still playing college football?

[nickgyp]

Jordan Travis was in Bobby Petrino's last class at Louisville. How is he still playing college football?

Blutarski’s seven years of college plan it would seem; and probably not that much closer to a degree.

[UCGRAD4X]

They stole LSU’s lunch money, and there was nothing LSU could do about it. I missed the early part while out to dinner, but late in the game it must have been painful if you are an LSU fan. Nothing is worse than them telling you they are going to run all over you, then doing it with little hope of you stopping them. It looked like Men vs boys late in the game a few times. Maybe I just got an odd impression? Let’s see how things play out but I did not expect that blowout.

Top 10 matchup? Big Game "We're gonna beat the heck outa Florida State" Brian Kelly (in his best Cajun accent) shits the bed again. 3 - 10 in top ten match-ups.

Includes a win against a depleted Clemson at when he decided Notre Dame could never get HIM over the top and a loss to the #7 Borecats at home in 2021.

He was good at beating the teams he was supposed to win, which is why he broke Knute's records for wins.

[paulxu]

This is a thoughtful look at the current landscape in college sports, by a former Chancellor at a local university hear in Spartanburg.
I think he does a good job of laying out the challenges facing all schools.

https://open.substack.com/pub/olinsansbury/p/college-sports-v-televisions-seductive?r=17qngs&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

[JTG]

This is a thoughtful look at the current landscape in college sports, by a former Chancellor at a local university hear in Spartanburg.
I think he does a good job of laying out the challenges facing all schools.

https://open.substack.com/pub/olinsansbury/p/college-sports-v-televisions-seductive?r=17qngs&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

Reading the article, were the NIL in place in the 80s would X have made it to where it is today? Would Hill, Larkin, Grant, West have all headed for greener pastures? I'm guessing most would have left, not to mention numerous others. We were blessed with coaches who could find and coach up diamonds in the rough.

[xudash]

This is a thoughtful look at the current landscape in college sports, by a former Chancellor at a local university hear in Spartanburg.
I think he does a good job of laying out the challenges facing all schools.

https://open.substack.com/pub/olinsansbury/p/college-sports-v-televisions-seductive?r=17qngs&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

What I am about to share from that article should boggle your minds:

Top salary for football coaches in 2022 went to Alabama coach Nick Saban, nearly $11 million. The next five were all $9 million and up.

Dabo Swinney at Clemson and Kirby Smart at Georgia barely trailed Saban, but both have greater job security. Buying out Saban would cost Alabama only $43,200,000, while to dismiss Swinney, Clemson would have to pay him $64,000,000. Getting rid of Smart would be the most expensive discharge fee---a tidy $103,104,167.

The buyouts are not wild estimates. The Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics reported in October 2022 that institutions in the Power 5 conferences (ACC, Big Ten, Big 12, PAC 12 and SEC) paid out over the 2012-2021 decade $530 million in severance to football coaches and assistants alone.

Who needs a solid library, or better labs. A half a billion to coaches for leaving. Damn.

[MHettel]

Reading the article, were the NIL in place in the 80s would X have made it to where it is today? Would Hill, Larkin, Grant, West have all headed for greener pastures? I'm guessing most would have left, not to mention numerous others. We were blessed with coaches who could find and coach up diamonds in the rough.

This is correct. And its why I dont like the NIL. There will be no way to go from average to great. You wont be able to "get rich", but the rich will get richer.

There will be extreme seperation in D1 Mens BBall. Cinderella, the clock has struck midnight

[xudash]

Quoted from the Gonzaga board:

Matt Norlander
@MattNorlander
Made some calls on Gonzaga/Big 12. The biggest reason this is now A Thing again: Brett Yormark—who is 100% driving this—is seeking the most loaded basketball league imaginable so he can take the Big 12 to market at the end of the decade and have separate media deals for football and basketball.

Yormark still has pushback and caution from some Big 12 presidents and ADs. (There are also some who are all-in on the move and support it.) Yormark is trying to get this done ASAP but the feeling amongst some is: Gonzaga probably isn't going anywhere, why not wait a few years?
​
Huge financial questions—the stuff that matters most to people running athletic departments and universities—are still not answered re: adding the Four Corner schools that will officially join next year. The ESPN and Fox deals for the 16-team Big 12 are still being ironed out.

From what I've been told, Big 12 leaders had a laundry list of Qs for Yormark last week and tasked him to bring back those to Gonzaga. With that, I think there's still some terms/negotiating points that Gonzaga might not be thrilled with that could cause it to pause and evaluate.

Big 12 needs 75% yes vote to clear Gonzaga. That doesn't exist right now. If a vote happened before June 30, 2024, nine out of 12 would have to be yeas. (No votes for OU, UT.) Four Corner schools have a voice but don't have a vote until 7.1.24 — then it has to be 12 out of 16.

This has to be vetted again at AD level before it gets to the presidents. My read: It seems a long shot to get a vote in favor of GU in near-future. One source said it would be “a grievous error to push this through right now.” Another: "It makes no sense to do this right now."

Smoke, but no fire yet, perhaps.

One aspect of this is the same as the Big East's attitude towards expansion as it relates to existing bball-only schools: they have nowhere else to go right now, so leave them be.

[GoMuskies]

Current AP Rankings
USC #6
FSU #8
A&M #23

Well, FSU turned out to actually be good. Maybe. Hard to tell when the ACC is so bad. USC and A&M continue being in the dumpster fire business.

[MHettel]

Gotta think FSU is beside itself right now having been left out of the football playoff. Undefeated season, and they get snubbed in favor of TWO teams with a loss. All their gripes seem pretty valid right now.

The sting should only hurt for one year, though. They get the auto bid next year, and might just get it every year going forward in a weak ACC. Silver lining…

[paulxu]

Where do you think they would hope to land? The SEC?


Florida State is now in unprecedented territory. No school has ever challenged a grant of rights in court.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/39167937/florida-state-sue-acc-grant-rights-withdrawal-fee

[MHettel]

Where do you think they would hope to land? The SEC?



https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/39167937/florida-state-sue-acc-grant-rights-withdrawal-fee

Shocking. Who could have predicted sucha thing?

Honestly, why WOUNDN'T they sue the ACC? If you lose, you're right back where you started before you sued them. And if you win, well you win.

Would the ACC "settle" this somehow to avoid the risk of a judgement that neuters the GOR? I would assume that their membership would have to vote to settle, and probably about 3-4 other teams in the membership would actually WANT the GOR to be removed. The ACC may be headed down a similar path that the Big East went down 12+ years ago. The "football" schools vs the "Basketball" schools in what may end up as an inevitable split. If this happens, I assume the BE will be sucked into the mix. Either through expansion of the BE, trying to grab some ACC properties or from the ACC trying to grab some BE teams.

Chaos.

[UCGRAD4X]

Where do you think they would hope to land? The SEC?
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/39167937/florida-state-sue-acc-grant-rights-withdrawal-fee

The SEC already has a presence in Fla. The B10 would probably like to have. B12 might be more likely to make this kind of move as well.

[Xville]

It’s funny to me that Florida state thinks they are this important. Sec has zero desire nor needs to add them and I don’t think the big ten wants to expand. They may end up in the big 12 which eventually they will have the same “problem” there.

I don’t think the size of some of these conferences are sustainable. At some point, I think someone is going to start bitching that they should get a bigger piece of the pie because of who they are. I.e Texas, usc whoever.

[xudash]

Where do you think they would hope to land? The SEC?


https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/39167937/florida-state-sue-acc-grant-rights-withdrawal-fee

The SEC not only doesn't need them, but would probably find them to be a negative value-add, especially when looking at it through a Gator lense or even a Georgia or Bama lense. Geographical dilution.

The B1G? Does FSU have the wherewithal to justify the media bump? Does the B1G want to invade SEC territory that badly? Is FSU even an institutional fit with respect to AAU and the other things that matter to the B1G leadership? I kind of doubt it.

FSU's legal position, in so many words: "You should have seen the SEC and B1G increases coming and you locked all of us in for too long a period" - The university alleges "chronic fiduciary mismanagement and bad faith" in the way the ACC has handled its multimedia rights agreements and undermined its members' revenue opportunities.

Can you seek damages from someone based on hindsight/based on the other party's failure to read the future tea leafs more accurately?

- - - - - - -

Xavier will be directly affected by this if FSU is successful. Please humor me here - I'm going to take a shot at a possible waterfall outcome:

1. FSU succeeds, and leaves, even if leaving means leaving without a firm destination. They can argue free agency if Notre Dame is otherwise allowed to play on that basis, with respect to having a path to the CFP. Can they coddle together a good football schedule and enough media money to make it work? Who knows, but that's their problem. They wouldn't be going down this road if they didn't see some form of landing pad for them.

2. At the very least, UNC, Miami and Clemson clamor to pull the trigger themselves, especially if the two behemoths - the B1G and the SEC - say that maybe going to 20+ ain't such a bad idea after all.

3. Comically (I did ask you to humor me) Yomark and the Big 12 soil themselves and run to the restroom puking as they realize that having Oklahoma State as the conference football flagship is like standing on the bridge of the Bismark with the rudder already knocked out by a torpedo. Yes, they could pick up some of the lessor ACC football members, but at what "cost" to the media distribution figures.

- - - Now, at this point, material movement and anarchy only really is possible IF the B1G and SEC decide to expand club membership. Let's say they do - - -

4. The ACC is as close to being mortally wounded as possible with the defections of FSU, Clemson, UNC and Miami. Perhaps UVA also, given the brand. NC State? V Tech? In the grand scheme of things, who cares, except for certain politicians in those states who risk having their homes egged if they don't try to do something. With all due respect, calling up Marshall and Appalachian State isn't going to cut it from a go-forward media payout basis for what would constitute the ACC at that point.

Here's my bottomline with my thinking: at the point where all this actually happens, if it all happens, there will not be enough good back fill to hold the ACC together as a legitimate "power" (it really isn't one now) football conference. Forget Washington State and Oregon State. Hell, Stanford and Cal may stay home on some basis rather than continue with this mess. SMU? They'll still think they've made it to the promised land and will make sure that a sufficient number of oil wells keep pumping to subsidize them forward.

What does that mean for Xavier? Here's where it gets tricky. There isn't one remaining ACC school that will put basketball in front of football at this point. Too much pride. Too much alumni concern over it. Just simply too much athletic department infrastructure and alumni funding risk to throw in the towel. Yet, they truly will not be able to fortify THE ACC CONFERENCE sans the primary lost football schools. Again, calling up Marshall and Appalachian State isn't the answer financially.

Can they find a hybrid solution? The ACC front office isn't going to like being put out of work, but can the remaining ACC football schools pull a UCONN?

If they can find a way to go independent or lobby the NCAA to allow for a football break off with other sports allowed to comprise conference centric sports, then the Big East could possibly be sitting pretty, or prettier. So, they go independent, or they're allowed to coddle together a football only conference that still has access to the CFP.

Let them solve for football as best they can, while maximizing the value of their basketball programs. Duke, Syracuse and Pitt join the Big East to take us to 14 and we hold there, with all that happening with a nice bump to the existing $4 million per school.

One can dream. It's going to be dizzy and fluid for a little while longer.

[paulxu]

I wonder if the ACC presidents got together, and faced with a possible conference implosion as the case winds its way along, decide that maybe an "unequal" sharing of media $ (more to teams like FSU) just to keep the conference from disintegrating would be an option.

[Xville]

I wonder if the ACC presidents got together, and faced with a possible conference implosion as the case winds its way along, decide that maybe an "unequal" sharing of media $ (more to teams like FSU) just to keep the conference from disintegrating would be an option.

That ship has sailed. The other university presidents are basically telling fsu to piss off

[xudash]

I wonder if the ACC presidents got together, and faced with a possible conference implosion as the case winds its way along, decide that maybe an "unequal" sharing of media $ (more to teams like FSU) just to keep the conference from disintegrating would be an option.

Since i've already blabbered enough above, I'll keep this one short. You have made me think of the inverse - sort of - of your thought: what if FSU is willing to accept a lower distribution than other members of the B1G in exchange for membership there? Ditto Clemson, as they would both join the B1G as a package deal, or ditto UNC if they're deemed to be more valuable to the B1G.

Of course, the media figure payout they would agree to would certainly be more than what they're locked into with the ACC for the next decade+.

Then we could watch Florida State in Columbus, Ann Arbor, Happy Valley or Madison in November from time to time. That alone might be fun.

[paulxu]

Dash, isn't that the case with new members joining conferences now?
Don't they often take a lesser share for a few years as a kinda price of admission?

[xudash]

Dash, isn't that the case with new members joining conferences now?
Don't they often take a lesser share for a few years as a kinda price of admission?

Yep. But thought I would toss the point in here to show that FSU may have options with the big two.

Why pull the trigger on this now unless you’ve thought it all the way through.

[paulxu]

If it's merely a $, maybe they can squeeze more out of the ACC with an enhanced revenue sharing.
But I'd guess not.
And I agree they must have a landing spot picked out, and I'd think some idea that it's viable

[X-band '01]

Meanwhile, Oregon State and Washington State are going to be an "affiliate" member of the WCC for the next 2 years for sports outside of football. They already have a scheduling agreement in place with the Mountain West on that front.

[Seven Eighths]

Two Major Conferences:

Big

Michigan
Ohio State
Penn State
Maryland
Michigan State
Indiana
Rutgers
Purdue
Illinois
Iowa
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Nebraska
Northwestern
UCLA
USC
ND
UNC
Virginia
Kansas
Oregon
Iowa State
Washington
Stanford

SEC

Georgia
Tennessee
South Carolina
Kentucky
Florida
Missouri
Vanderbilt
Alabama
LSU
Miss St. .
Mississippi
Arkansas
Auburn
Texas A&M
Texas
Oklahoma
Clemson
Florida State
Miami
Georgia Tech
Oklahoma State
Arizona
Texas Tech
Kansas State

New ACC

Boston College
UCONN
Duke
Houston
Louisville
NC State
Pitt
Syracuse
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest
Temple/UC/UCF/USF/Memphis (just one of them)

Utah, Cal, Colorado, ASU, BYU and Baylor could be invited if each Big 2 goes to 30 along with some from the new ACC.

I’m not saying it will be exactly like this but we are closing in on something like this in the next 5-10 years if not sooner.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Holtman replacement odds

Lamont Paris +250
Sean Miller +400
Dusty May +500
Chris Mack +700
Buzz Williams +800
Wes Miller +900
Greg McDermott +1000
Scoonie Penn +1300
Anthony Grant +1500
Nate Oats +1700
Eric Musselman +1800
Josh Schertz +2000
Pat Kelsey +2000

[drudy23]

I bet Mack has some interest.

But you're always a DISTANT #2 to football at OSU.

[paulxu]

I could be a distant #16 for $5 million a year.

[paulxu]

UMass leaving the A10.

[X-band '01]

and joining the MAC. Good rational decision purely driven by foosball.

At least we'll get to see Angry Frank lay down a beating on Travis/Miami now.

[xudash]

UMass leaving the A10.

Wow.

So, how many arenas will there be in the A10 that have over 5k seats after UMAA leaves - that don't look like high school gyms?

[X-band '01]

Virtually everywhere west and south of Pennsylvania.

(except the bandbox at GW)

[paulxu]

Clemson joins FSU in suing the ACC to get the hell out.

[xubrew]

Missouri State from MVC to CUSA. They will be moving their football up to FBS. The thing is they weren’t really all that good at the FCS level, so it may be a tough landing.

Grand Canyon and Seattle U from the WAC to the WCC in 2025. I think that takes the WCC out to 13 if Wazzu and Oregon State remain in the league. Gonzaga seemed pretty adamant that they did not want Seattle U in the conference. At least that was the rumor. I guess things change.

[Masterofreality]

and joining the MAC. Good rational decision purely driven by foosball.

At least we'll get to see Angry Frank lay down a beating on Travis/Miami now.

Angry Frank being a coach in the Mid American Conference is amazing. WOW.

[xubrew]

I really like the MAC. I also really like Frank Martin and think UMass has a lot of potential to grow as a program.

But...the two don't really seem to go together. UMass is not a MAC school.

[GoMuskies]

UMass needs to bring back their women's gymnastics program so that I can take a trip up to Amherst.

[xubrew]

UMass needs to bring back their women's gymnastics program so that I can take a trip up to Amherst.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone make this statement before.

[X-band '01]

I really like the MAC. I also really like Frank Martin and think UMass has a lot of potential to grow as a program.

But...the two don't really seem to go together. UMass is not a MAC school.

They were an afiiliate member for football at one point, so it's not completely far fetched.

Now I wonder what the UMass-Buffalo rivalry would be like; that's the closest school in the MAC to Amherst.

[xubrew]

They were an afiiliate member for football at one point, so it's not completely far fetched.

Now I wonder what the UMass-Buffalo rivalry would be like; that's the closest school in the MAC to Amherst.

I remember. They had to play four OOC basketball games a year against MAC teams, and two had to be on the road.

[GoMuskies]

Does UMass still play home football games in Foxborough, which is almost 100 miles from campus?

[Xville]

Sounds like the ACC is living on borrowed time and will blow up id assume within the year. News coming out of North Carolina that their BOT wants out.

TV Contracts have ruined a lot of what made college football great.

[GoMuskies]

TV Contracts have ruined a lot of what made college football great.

I'd say they're ruining college sports in general. Football is just driving the bus off the cliff.

[xubrew]

Sounds like the ACC is living on borrowed time and will blow up id assume within the year. News coming out of North Carolina that their BOT wants out.

TV Contracts have ruined a lot of what made college football great.

North Carolina has wanted out for a while. They wanted to go to the Big Ten when Rutgers and Maryland were added.

[xubrew]

I'd say they're ruining college sports in general. Football is just driving the bus off the cliff.

I would not disagree with anyone who says TV contracts and football have ruined college sports. But, at the end of the day, I also strongly believe that college sports ruined college sports. The collective leadership ultimately failed. Over and over and over again.

[JTG]

North Carolina has wanted out for a while. They wanted to go to the Big Ten when Rutgers and Maryland were added.

Rutgers to the B1G is quite possibly the dumbest thing they ever did, at least until they added Wash & Oregon. Actually the B1G should show Rutgers, and Maryland the door. They add nothing. One would think the Admins and Network folks would know that College Football is not a big deal on the East Coast.

[XUGRAD80]

I would not disagree with anyone who says TV contracts and football have ruined college sports. But, at the end of the day, I also strongly believe that college sports ruined college sports. The collective leadership ultimately failed. Over and over and over again.

I’d say greed more than lack of leadership. Every school (including X for that matter) has done what is best for THEM and THEIR bottom line. I’d probably be doing the same, but NOBODY has really been interested in how their actions will affect the schools they leave behind. No leadership can overcome that.

[XUGRAD80]

Rutgers to the B1G is quite possibly the dumbest thing they ever did, at least until they added Wash & Oregon. Actually the B1G should show Rutgers, and Maryland the door. They add nothing. One would think the Admins and Network folks would know that College Football is not a big deal on the East Coast..

Is it the dumbest thing from a RUTGERS point of view? Probably the biggest money windfall Rutgers could have ever expected.

[waggy]

Don’t the conference sports years end summer-fall? It’s going to get interesting…

[xubrew]

Rutgers to the B1G is quite possibly the dumbest thing they ever did, at least until they added Wash & Oregon. Actually the B1G should show Rutgers, and Maryland the door. They add nothing. One would think the Admins and Network folks would know that College Football is not a big deal on the East Coast.

Rutgers to the Big Ten was perhaps dumb. Rutgers to the Big Ten NETWORK wasn't dumb at all. $0.59 per month per subscriber. That's what the Big Ten gets. If the Big Ten Network is suddenly included on a basic cable tier, which it is in NYC because of Rutgers, then the Big Ten gets $0.59 per month per person that has the network as part of their cable/satellite package. Even if said person doesn't turn on the channel at all for an entire year, they're still paying the Big Ten 59 cents every month. That's a lot of people.

That's the only reason Rutgers got in, and they delivered exactly what the conference was looking for. A windfall of cash.

Not many people realize this, but a pivotal change in college athletics happened in 2007. It was the first game of the season. I think it was actually the first ever telecast of the Big Ten Network. Appalachian State beats Michigan. As the game was being played, people all over the country were calling cable and satellite providers to add the BTN so they could see the end of the game. By the end of the day, the Big Ten had made a fortune. They got the $0.59 for every person that called, and it was literally millions of people. That's when everyone sort of sat back and thought "Hmmm....you can REALLY make a lot of money with these conference networks!" It's ironic, but true. Michigan lost to what was then an FCS team, but it was arguably one of the most important and pivotal days in the history of the Big Ten conference. They were on top of the world after that, and everyone realized the Big Ten had a major revenue stream that at the time no one else had.

[xubrew]

Don’t the conference sports years end summer-fall? It’s going to get interesting…

July 1

[MHettel]

As much as I hate the current state of college sports, I dont think the ACC blowing up would be a good thing.

Miami, FSU, Clemson, UVA and UNC seem like they would be sought after by the SEC or B1G. Teams like GT, NCST, UofL, Pitt, Syracuse, & VTech seem like they would need to sweet talk their way into relevance.

Then the teams like Duke, BC & Wake seem like they are destined to get screwed.

ND is always a wild card.

I have to assume that if the ACC blows up, then the Big East will be impacted as well. Maybe we expand....maybe we get raided. I'm not looking forward to all the permutations of that.

[JTG]

ND hops on over to the Big East, and we all live happily ever after.

[MHettel]

ND hops on over to the Big East, and we all live happily ever after.

I've been speculating on that for years. You think FOX would be interested in that ND football TV Contract? ND to the BE for all sports (except FB) would be a great start....

[X-band '01]

As much as I hate the current state of college sports, I dont think the ACC blowing up would be a good thing.

Miami, FSU, Clemson, UVA and UNC seem like they would be sought after by the SEC or B1G. Teams like GT, NCST, UofL, Pitt, Syracuse, & VTech seem like they would need to sweet talk their way into relevance.

Then the teams like Duke, BC & Wake seem like they are destined to get screwed.

ND is always a wild card.

I have to assume that if the ACC blows up, then the Big East will be impacted as well. Maybe we expand....maybe we get raided. I'm not looking forward to all the permutations of that.

North Carolina would give the SEC a new market to enter, so they're the only ones ideally suited to jump ship should they find a way out of the Grant of Rights. FSU, Miami and Clemson would not provide that (not to mention they'd be vetoed on contact).

[MHettel]

North Carolina would give the SEC a new market to enter, so they're the only ones ideally suited to jump ship should they find a way out of the Grant of Rights. FSU, Miami and Clemson would not provide that (not to mention they'd be vetoed on contact).

you dont think the SEC would play a little defense by keeping the B1G out of Florida?

i get the idea of new markets, but arguably the SouthEast US is the most talent rich region for college football. The SEC could basically lock it down from Virginia to Florida to Texas.

[Xville]

Markets don’t matter anymore, just eyeballs. But North Carolina is a brand so yeah they would be wanted. In that same vein, Miami would also be wanted. FSU probably as well, but Florida may veto that.

[paulxu]

Wouldn’t you think FSU and Clemson would have secured a landing spot before they sued the ACC?

[MHettel]

Markets don’t matter anymore, just eyeballs. But North Carolina is a brand so yeah they would be wanted. In that same vein, Miami would also be wanted. FSU probably as well, but Florida may veto that.

I’m not positive, but I believe Texas A&M had an actual veto against Texas joining. And yet Texas is now in the SEC. I don’t think Florida has a unilateral veto like that. My guess is that the majority of SEC teams see the value of FSU and ALSO see that keeping them out of the B1G is equally important.

The SEC could be actually fairly geographically adjacent if they were to pickup Miami, FSU, UNC, UVA & Clemson. Way better than the cliusterfuck that is the B12 and B1G

[XUGRAD80]

When teams can fly coast to coast on private jets in 4 hours geography means much less than it did when it took 4 days on a train. It started with professional sports leagues moving into divisions and having to figure out where to put expansion teams. Once the powers that be figured out that it really didn’t have to depend on geography and that fans would adjust the doors opened to all kinds of possibilities. The teams will still sell out their stadiums with home fans, they don’t need to rely on visitors, and since most of the money is from TV that’s not even as important as it once was. You can also blame some of it on Notre Dame because they were able to create rivalries with teams no where near them geographically starting with games against east coast and west coast teams back 80 years ago that were written about in newspapers, covered in newsreels, and have become part of the lore of college football. They showed that belonging to a league wasn’t necessary in order to create a national presence or become a national power. TV and media, and the money they create, are the driving forces in movement, not geography.

[Xville]

I’m not positive, but I believe Texas A&M had an actual veto against Texas joining. And yet Texas is now in the SEC. I don’t think Florida has a unilateral veto like that. My guess is that the majority of SEC teams see the value of FSU and ALSO see that keeping them out of the B1G is equally important.

The SEC could be actually fairly geographically adjacent if they were to pickup Miami, FSU, UNC, UVA & Clemson. Way better than the cliusterfuck that is the B12 and B1G

Yeah A&M did, then the rest of the league told them to shut up, because they are little brother compared to Texas and their brand.

Florida has a veto, but it will come down to money. The SEC does seem to do things a lot more strategically and with purpose than what the Big 10 is doing. Personally, I'll be surprised if the Big 10 is able to hold all of that together 5-10 years down the road.

[GoMuskies]

Does Florida State really have a brand anymore? They kind of suck at everything now. Sure, they had a pretty good football team (for once) last year, but even that turned out to be pretty embarrassing for them.

[Xville]

Does Florida State really have a brand anymore? They kind of suck at everything now. Sure, they had a pretty good football team (for once) last year, but even that turned out to be pretty embarrassing for them.

Certainly not the brand of Texas, and honestly probably not even North Carolina. North Carolina football is not really relevant but their brand is there. You see UNC apparel everywhere, it's rare to see Florida State apparel.

I do think Florida State has an inflated sense of self, that doesn't really fit with reality.

[MHettel]

I do think Florida State has an inflated sense of self, that doesn't really fit with reality.

The irony….

[xubrew]

Markets don’t matter anymore, just eyeballs. But North Carolina is a brand so yeah they would be wanted. In that same vein, Miami would also be wanted. FSU probably as well, but Florida may veto that.

It's actually both. Power Conferences are really looking at two things...

1) How can we maximize the distribution of our conference network? (This is where the markets come in)

2) How can we maximize the number of events (typically football games) that exceed the 10 million viewership mark? (this is where the eyeballs come in)

[Xville]

It's actually both. Power Conferences are really looking at two things...

1) How can we maximize the distribution of our conference network? (This is where the markets come in)

2) How can we maximize the number of events (typically football games) that exceed the 10 million viewership mark? (this is where the eyeballs come in)

What I have been told from experts on this is that distribution doesn’t matter anymore due to the slow death of traditional cable

[xubrew]

What I have been told from experts on this is that distribution doesn’t matter anymore due to the slow death of traditional cable

Oh it still matters! I can assure you that the experts were not conference commissioners, AD's, or league officials from those conferences. The Big Ten, SEC, and ACC still receive a set amount of money for everyone who can access their network whether they watch it or not. If you have the Big Ten Network, the Big Ten is getting $0.59 per month from you even if you never turn it on. That's why markets matter. If cable providers include it with their basic package in a big market, it is still a huge cash windfall.

[Xville]

Oh it still matters! I can assure you that the experts were not conference commissioners, AD's, or league officials from those conferences. The Big Ten, SEC, and ACC still receive a set amount of money for everyone who can access their network whether they watch it or not. If you have the Big Ten Network, the Big Ten is getting $0.59 per month from you even if you never turn it on. That's why markets matter. If cable providers include it with their basic package in a big market, it is still a huge cash windfall.

Yeah completely understand that’s the case with cable. but you’re still talking legacy cable. People still have legacy cable?

[xudash]

When teams can fly coast to coast on private jets in 4 hours geography means much less than it did when it took 4 days on a train. It started with professional sports leagues moving into divisions and having to figure out where to put expansion teams. Once the powers that be figured out that it really didn’t have to depend on geography and that fans would adjust the doors opened to all kinds of possibilities. The teams will still sell out their stadiums with home fans, they don’t need to rely on visitors, and since most of the money is from TV that’s not even as important as it once was. You can also blame some of it on Notre Dame because they were able to create rivalries with teams no where near them geographically starting with games against east coast and west coast teams back 80 years ago that were written about in newspapers, covered in newsreels, and have become part of the lore of college football. They showed that belonging to a league wasn’t necessary in order to create a national presence or become a national power. TV and media, and the money they create, are the driving forces in movement, not geography.

Public reps.

Gonzaga is a fascinating case. Just the ability and/or luck to retain one coach for such a long time for stability and continuity is a thing of its own. That in and of itself typically ends up being the trigger point on opinions as to whether Gonzaga would be worth it long term. There are two sides to that argument:

1. When Few leaves, then Gonzaga could easily fall off a cliff; and

2. Gonzaga has such a rep that it should be able to transition to more success under the next coach, obviously assuming they pick the right guy.

Mark Few is 61 years old. What is his energy level? What is his general disposition towards working? How is he dealing with the new world order of NIL and the portal? I could see him being gone within 5 years.

Frankly, it's going to be about picking the right guy - that's obviously true for every program - but especially for Gonzaga if they remain in the WCC. Look at what happened to Nova after Jay Wright said "that's it." And that's Villanova - 2 NCs under Jay, the Big East, Philadelphia, etc. If Gonzaga gets it wrong after Mark Few and they're still stuck in a remote mid-major conference, then watch out. The WCC and Spokane offer very little comparatively speaking.

I have to believe that the leadership at Gonzaga has already commissioned a deep dive into what it would mean and look like to operate as a member of the BE. I have to believe that analysis says "GO!" and as soon as possible. The Big East has to have already looked at it from our end. I believe very quiet meetings have taken place between Val and FOX about what it would mean to onboard the Zags. The Big XII option has sailed on them. It's stay home or move to the Big East for Gonzaga, as I see it.

I agree with those who take the position that the Big East is solid with the 11 members we have now. I hope that any material dismantling of the ACC would not lather up Stupid UCONN II - "hey, let's go join the ACC after FSU, Clemson, Miami and UNC check out so that we can save our football team." The 11 members we presently have and the round robin are solid.

However, if we can add strength and if adding strength means goosing the media agreement even more per school, then I can't see how the Big East wouldn't pull the trigger on Gonzaga.

If the Big East doesn't pull the trigger on Gonzaga, it could be because it's watching developments with the ACC. UNC's AD submitted an athletic department budget that reflects a $17 million deficit for this upcoming year, and UNC's cumulative athletic budget deficit is said to be $100 million. UNC sees its $40mm per year from the ACC media deal as being boat raced by the B1G and SEC's $70'ish million per school per year. They are not in a sustainably competitive position.

We - the Big East and Xavier - have to get through this next media deal successfully and, if that happens well and before any additional conference shuffling occurs, we get to see what that means with respect to staying at 11 or adding some interesting names.

My feeling is that any expansion of the Big East will come from Gonzaga or a program like Syracuse (I type this knowing that football is very important to Syracuse). I truly believe that expansion will not come from the mid-major ranks.

[JTG]

Public reps.

Gonzaga is a fascinating case. Just the ability and/or luck to retain one coach for such a long time for stability and continuity is a thing of its own. That in and of itself typically ends up being the trigger point on opinions as to whether Gonzaga would be worth it long term. There are two sides to that argument:

1. When Few leaves, then Gonzaga could easily fall off a cliff; and

2. Gonzaga has such a rep that it should be able to transition to more success under the next coach, obviously assuming they pick the right guy.

Mark Few is 61 years old. What is his energy level? What is his general disposition towards working? How is he dealing with the new world order of NIL and the portal? I could see him being gone within 5 years.

Frankly, it's going to be about picking the right guy - that's obviously true for every program - but especially for Gonzaga if they remain in the WCC. Look at what happened to Nova after Jay Wright said "that's it." And that's Villanova - 2 NCs under Jay, the Big East, Philadelphia, etc. If Gonzaga gets it wrong after Mark Few and they're still stuck in a remote mid-major conference, then watch out. The WCC and Spokane offer very little comparatively speaking.

I have to believe that the leadership at Gonzaga has already commissioned a deep dive into what it would mean and look like to operate as a member of the BE. I have to believe that analysis says "GO!" and as soon as possible. The Big East has to have already looked at it from our end. I believe very quiet meetings have taken place between Val and FOX about what it would mean to onboard the Zags. The Big XII option has sailed on them. It's stay home or move to the Big East for Gonzaga, as I see it.

I agree with those who take the position that the Big East is solid with the 11 members we have now. I hope that any material dismantling of the ACC would not lather up Stupid UCONN II - "hey, let's go join the ACC after FSU, Clemson, Miami and UNC check out so that we can save our football team." The 11 members we presently have and the round robin are solid.

However, if we can add strength and if adding strength means goosing the media agreement even more per school, then I can't see how the Big East wouldn't pull the trigger on Gonzaga.

If the Big East doesn't pull the trigger on Gonzaga, it could be because it's watching developments with the ACC. UNC's AD submitted an athletic department budget that reflects a $17 million deficit for this upcoming year, and UNC's cumulative athletic budget deficit is said to be $100 million. UNC sees its $40mm per year from the ACC media deal as being boat raced by the B1G and SEC's $70'ish million per school per year. They are not in a sustainably competitive position.

We - the Big East and Xavier - have to get through this next media deal successfully and, if that happens well and before any additional conference shuffling occurs, we get to see what that means with respect to staying at 11 or adding some interesting names.

My feeling is that any expansion of the Big East will come from Gonzaga or a program like Syracuse (I type this knowing that football is very important to Syracuse). I truly believe that expansion will not come from the mid-major ranks.

You rightfully stated that if Gonzaga gets it wrong replacing Few, that they are screwed. I know that there are people who think this is nonsense. But ACC implosion, and the ability of the BE to team with Fox and dangle a big tv contract for ND football, and their inclusion in the BE is the much safer play. Gonzaga is the hot chick at the bar who 6 or 7 years from now is big & lazy.

[MHettel]

You rightfully stated that if Gonzaga gets it wrong replacing Few, that they are screwed. I know that there are people who think this is nonsense. But ACC implosion, and the ability of the BE to team with Fox and dangle a big tv contract for ND football, and their inclusion in the BE is the much safer play. Gonzaga is the hot chick at the bar who 6 or 7 years from now is big & lazy.

I feel like if Gonzaga were to join the BE, it would likely help them remain relevant after Few leaves. Otherwise, staying in the WCC could eventually lead to their irrelevance if they had a couple coaches turnover.

[XUGRAD80]

I feel like if Gonzaga were to join the BE, it would likely help them remain relevant after Few leaves. Otherwise, staying in the WCC could eventually lead to their irrelevance if they had a couple coaches turnover.

Agreed. They will need to somehow stay in the bright lights or they could easily fade away. If anything they will be overshadowed by the larger schools on the west coast even more now that those others are in the B10. It was quite easy for 2/3rd of the nation to ignore the western coast schools when they spent most of their time playing each other, but now that they will be playing midwestern and eastern schools on a regular basis throughout the year, they will garner much of the public’s notice. Much more so than before. If Zaga can’t find a way to remain a threat to the top programs in the country, what is their appeal? I’d even say that if UCLA can’t compete in the B10 that their stock will be falling quickly too.

[xudash]

Agreed. They will need to somehow stay in the bright lights or they could easily fade away. If anything they will be overshadowed by the larger schools on the west coast even more now that those others are in the B10. It was quite easy for 2/3rd of the nation to ignore the western coast schools when they spent most of their time playing each other, but now that they will be playing midwestern and eastern schools on a regular basis throughout the year, they will garner much of the public’s notice. Much more so than before. If Zaga can’t find a way to remain a threat to the top programs in the country, what is their appeal? I’d even say that if UCLA can’t compete in the B10 that their stock will be falling quickly too.

That's a great point.

Even more pressure to act.

[JTG]

Agreed. They will need to somehow stay in the bright lights or they could easily fade away. If anything they will be overshadowed by the larger schools on the west coast even more now that those others are in the B10. It was quite easy for 2/3rd of the nation to ignore the western coast schools when they spent most of their time playing each other, but now that they will be playing midwestern and eastern schools on a regular basis throughout the year, they will garner much of the public’s notice. Much more so than before. If Zaga can’t find a way to remain a threat to the top programs in the country, what is their appeal? I’d even say that if UCLA can’t compete in the B10 that their stock will be falling quickly too.

As for UCLA, they just received their Golden Ticket. Once you're in the SEC or B1G, you don't leave. Vandy in the SEC, and IUs horrendous football history are cases in point.

[xudash]

You rightfully stated that if Gonzaga gets it wrong replacing Few, that they are screwed. I know that there are people who think this is nonsense. But ACC implosion, and the ability of the BE to team with Fox and dangle a big tv contract for ND football, and their inclusion in the BE is the much safer play. Gonzaga is the hot chick at the bar who 6 or 7 years from now is big & lazy.

Love your idea with ND.

It would be wild if the BE snagged them. They would be tough in Olympic sports, but I would enjoy watching us beat them in basketball.

[XUGRAD80]

If the ACC falls apart because of some of the schools migrating to the SEC or B10, there are going to be some schools left out in the cold. The BE would be the natural landing spot for their basketball programs and possibly some of their other sports. I wonder though…do you suppose that any of the 7 current members of the BE that were charter members of the old BE still bear a grudge about the football schools leaving? LOL I’d guess that the right kind of money could make that a moot point. I also wonder if the ACC folds, can the B12 be far behind? Will we end up with just 2 super football conferences eventually?

[xudash]

The ACC will add three schools -- Stanford, Cal and SMU -- beginning in the 2024-25 school year, bringing the conference to 18 members.

FSU, Clemson, Miami and UNC want out in order to go to either the B1G or SEC. WHEN - not if - they eventually get their way, that will drop the ACC to 14 members. Let's assume at that point that Stanford and Cal will call it a day and go home in some way, shape, form or fashion. SMU will hold onto anything at that point - they hang on - but without any media funding participation (i.e. the cost of their entry).

So, for giggles in this argument and scenario, let's say the ACC deflates to the following cast of characters:

Boston College
Duke
Georgia Tech
Louisville
NC State
Pitt
SMU
Syracuse
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest
-------------
Notre Dame


Now, imagine putting together a media agreement for that for football (ND being below the line for football). Let's say that each of the 4 long term member departing schools have to cough up $100 million each as an exit fee - a $400 million kitty to subsidize the forgotten 10 (remember: SMU agreed to no media money for years, and I imagine they're restricted from other "revenue streams" like exit fees as well).

Each B1G and SEC school are raking in around $70 million per year, per various published reports. Let's say a media partner is willing to go up to $20 million per school per year for that group. That exit fee bucket and monies from NCAAT units simply are not going to make up the gap in any meaningful way and for a sufficient amount of time.

The ACC, if it ends up going in this direction, will be in a very difficult position.

I don't see Big East basketball schools being stupid enough to go in that direction.

Would the Big East possibly be willing to add some of those schools should things break in that direction? We all recall what the C7 went through to get us all where we are today. Before we conclude that the C7 - that the Big East - would now not look at expansion of this kind, everyone needs to consider that times have changed even since 2012/2013. Figure out a mutually beneficial structure and paper it accordingly. The Big East probably would only want a few of these schools anyway, assuming they become available.

[xubrew]

The soon to be new normal?? Teams from the same conference scheduling OOC home-and-homes in football. Do one or both schools hope/plan to leave? Or do they just want to assure they'll play each other in the event that the league office does not schedule the two of them??

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/40151499/virginia-nc-state-play-non-acc-home-home-football-series

[paulxu]

Sure wish they had done the 4 X 16 re-alignment a while back.
Could have preserved some semblance of old rivalries, geography (I know there are short plane rides now) and a great way to set up playoffs.
Would be something like the NFL alignments.
Oh well.

[murray87]

Quite a high stakes battle:

https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaas-settlement-proposal-facing-strong-objection-from-big-east-194238228.html

[waggy]

The BE is getting boned in this deal.

[xubrew]

Quite a high stakes battle:

https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaas-settlement-proposal-facing-strong-objection-from-big-east-194238228.html


The BE is getting boned in this deal.

Ya think!!??

The whole premise is flawed. The vast majority of NIL money is related to P5/P4 level football. Not all of it, but the vast majority of it. Yet, the model for paying it back is based on basketball distribution. So the Big East, that doesn't even have football at any level, is stuck paying back as much as any of power conferences are.

I agree. The Big East is getting boned pretty good in this one.

[Xville]

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/41226997/sources-boise-state-four-schools-set-join-pac-12

Pac whatever they wanna call it now has 6 members, they have to get to at least 8 before their two year exemption ends to be considered a conference. Not sure of the stipulations, but I wonder if they try to grab Gonzaga and St. Mary's as non-football members?

If not, curious who they try to go after outside of just raiding more MTW teams?

[xubrew]

I seem to be the only one that thinks this is totally insane.

Why??

Why do this??

Who looks at the Pac 12 and thinks "Now, THERE is something we would like to emulate!!"?

Was naming the conference the Hindenburg League also kicked around??

[Xville]

I seem to be the only one that thinks this is totally insane.

Why??

Why do this??

Who looks at the Pac 12 and thinks "Now, THERE is something we would like to emulate!!"?

Was naming the conference the Hindenburg League also kicked around??

Why do you think it’s insane? There’s a market out there to capture so why not give it a go? All the schools added have pretty decent enrollment numbers with pretty decent sized alumni bases. Granted, outside of Boise, they don’t have much football tradition if any, but it’s worth a shot. I don’t know if it’s going to work, but I applaud wazzu and Oregon state for trying when they have been left at the altar.


Or are you saying its insane for the four schools to join what could be a sinking ship? I can see that, but maybe the name recognition means something more in terms of dollars than the mountain west? I dunno.

Granted, there were a lot more members at the time still there, but many probably thought the new Big East was kind of an insane idea at the time.

[GoMuskies]

The fact that it doesn't include UNLV is certainly insane. All four of the others have had good football programs here and there, but Las Vegas is the one with the market and Allegiant Stadium. Also, UNLV might win the MWC this year.

Grab UNLV and the Zoomies and call it a day.

[GoMuskies]

I think there also might be another Texas team or two that possibly might be worth mining out of the Southland or the United Athletic. Good luck picking the right one, but it feels like one of Tarleton State, Abilene Christian, Incarnate Word or Stephen F. Austin could turn into something worth having in a league lilke that over the next 5-10 years.

[Xville]

The fact that it doesn't include UNLV is certainly insane. All four of the others have had good football programs here and there, but Las Vegas is the one with the market and Allegiant Stadium. Also, UNLV might win the MWC this year.

Grab UNLV and the Zoomies and call it a day.

I agree with unlv. I’m assuming they went after them…maybe unlv will be next now that the rest have agreed?

Not saying it’s going to happen because the money is probably too good but I just wonder if some of these former pac 12 members start to have buyers remorse after a few years.

[MHettel]

Pretty crazy but it makes sense. You can’t just let the PAC-12 Brand die off. It might be diminished, but it has value. This was always going to end with WSU and OSU joining with some or all of the MW schools.

It didn’t make that much sense for them to just join the MW. It always made sense to do a “reverse merger” and re-populate the PAC-12. But cut some dead weight in the process.

Grabbing these 4 teams first makes the MW not viable. Even if they were previously hesitant, the remaining teams would now jump at an offer to be in the PAC-12. UNLV, Nevada, New Mexico St, Utah st, Air Force…..(skip wyoming, Hawaii, and San Jose st). Grab 3 of those teams and get to 9. Play everyone in football (8 games). Definitely grab Gonzaga and SMU for Ball. Add on more BBall only team as well (Seattle?).

Viola! PAC 12