Conference carousel to start spinning again?

[LA Muskie]

A Maryland court might recognize this, but will a North Carolina court? And is there sovereign immunity for breach of contract claims? I wouldn't think so.
I don't think the nature of the claim matters. Sovereign immunity doesn't mean you can't sue the State of Maryland. It means you can't sue the State of Maryland anywhere but in a Maryland court. Since North Carolina enjoys similar immunity, and would expect comity, I imagine their courts would enforce this rule just as they would expect Maryland courts to do the same.

[DC Muskie]

I don't think the nature of the claim matters. Sovereign immunity doesn't mean you can't sue the State of Maryland. It means you can't sue the State of Maryland anywhere but in a Maryland court. Since North Carolina enjoys similar immunity, and would expect comity, I imagine their courts would enforce this rule just as they would expect Maryland courts to do the same.

Since the league is based in NC, does that negate any sovereign immunity argument?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

9 FIGURES!

HA!! NFW that happens. That would be suicide on the part of the network(s) delivering it. The advertising revenue potential for that league, post UConn and UL will be seriously reduced. It isn't great now, let alone when those two go walking out the door, after having watched Rutgers walk out.

Seriously, if this happens, it never was about the composition of the league, because it will have been about the desperation of the networks to obtain content. Then, assuming it happens, will their models hold up, or will they lose their shirts.

Bubble market baby.

I'm with you. I don't think it will happen. But I was just stating that even a watered down CUSA v2.0 with the Big East name and college football is more valuable than an all bball league.

People are stating that we should remain in the A10 regardless. But if the hybrid BE calls with an invite and the potential to make millions per year as opposed to $325,000 per year, I think the university needs to seriously look at the invite

But first things first, UC needs to leave the conference

[DC Muskie]

People keep acting like Dayton is some separate media market.

UC in arguments for admissions into the ACC presented this little nugget:

Cincinnati has nine Fortune 500 companies in the area, plus is the 35th-ranked TV market.

What? 34th media market? Don't they know it overlaps Dayton? Why do people keep making this obvious mistake?

[muskienick]

I'm with you. I don't think it will happen. But I was just stating that even a watered down CUSA v2.0 with the Big East name and college football is more valuable than an all bball league.

People are stating that we should remain in the A10 regardless. But if the hybrid BE calls with an invite and the potential to make millions per year as opposed to $325,000 per year, I think the university needs to seriously look at the invite

But first things first, UC needs to leave the conference

I don't ever want to be part of a conference that UC left because it wasn't good enough for them (and they would be right in doing so).

However, if the BB-only 7 dissolve the current hybrid Big East and subsequently combine with the best possible non-FBS BB schools in the eastern half of the US, then I'm all for that!

[XU 87]

I don't think the nature of the claim matters. Sovereign immunity doesn't mean you can't sue the State of Maryland. It means you can't sue the State of Maryland anywhere but in a Maryland court. Since North Carolina enjoys similar immunity, and would expect comity, I imagine their courts would enforce this rule just as they would expect Maryland courts to do the same.

I disagree. Sovereign immunity means the state can do no wrong and can't be sued (it dates back to early England). In some (all?) states, like Ohio, there are many exceptions to this doctrine and in Ohio if you do sue the state on certain claims like a state doctor who commits malpractice you must do so in the Court of Claims in Columbus. Kentucky has the Board of Claims. But I highly doubt there is any state immunity to a breach of contract claim where the state can say "I know we owe you the money but too bad, we're not paying." And while the state of Maryland may say you have to sue the state in some special Maryland court, I'm not so sure a state of North Carolina court will mandate that.

[GoMuskies]

One would imagine (though I suppose one could be wrong) that the ACC by-laws have choice of law and choice of venue provisions that all parties agreed to (thus Maryland would have waived its sovereign immunity with respect to matters related to the by-laws in that particular venue).

[XU 87]

People keep acting like Dayton is some separate media market.

UC in arguments for admissions into the ACC presented this little nugget:

Cincinnati has nine Fortune 500 companies in the area, plus is the 35th-ranked TV market.

What? 34th media market? Don't they know it overlaps Dayton? Why do people keep making this obvious mistake?

Dayton has the 63rd largest market. If Cincinnati and Dayton are considered the same market, they wouldn't be listing them separately.

[GoMuskies]

Sarcasm font, DC. Sarcasm font!

[SM#24]

Nielsen TV markets
http://www.tvb.org/media/file/TVB_Market_Profiles_Nielsen_Household_DMA_Ranks2.p df

or MSA if you prefer (which I do)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Ar eas

[DC Muskie]

Dayton has the 63rd largest market. If Cincinnati and Dayton are considered the same market, they wouldn't be listing them separately.

64th actually. I know that's what I am trying to figure out. They overlap, MH can provide you link that has diagrams and circles that show how they overlap. Please ignore the numerical listing of all the markets though.

[DC Muskie]

Sarcasm font, DC. Sarcasm font!

Actually 90% of what I write is sarcastic, so I would need a "DEAD Serious" font.

[XU 87]

One would imagine (though I suppose one could be wrong) that the ACC by-laws have choice of law and choice of venue provisions that all parties agreed to (thus Maryland would have waived its sovereign immunity with respect to matters related to the by-laws in that particular venue).

That's probably true too. Problem solved.

[Masterofreality]

For the worst guy in the world's punishment, he will be sentenced to read all 327 (so far) pages of this thread.

Holy Cow!

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

For the worst guy in the world's punishment, he will be sentenced to read all 327 (so far) pages of this thread.

Holy Cow!

Haha. If we added the other conference realignment threads, we'd be well over 400!

[XU 87]

64th actually. I know that's what I am trying to figure out. They overlap, MH can provide you link that has diagrams and circles that show how they overlap. Please ignore the numerical listing of all the markets though.

Is it true that Dayton is leaving the state of Ohio and going independent? (Sorry, couldn't resist).

[BBC 08]

For the worst guy in the world's punishment, he will be sentenced to read all 327 (so far) pages of this thread.

Holy Cow!

I have it at 82. You need to up your post per page.

[DC Muskie]

Is it true that Dayton is leaving the state of Ohio and going independent? (Sorry, couldn't resist).

The Independent Division of the SEC yes.

[Masterofreality]

I have it at 82. You need to up your post per page.

IPad, dude.

[GoMuskies]

I've probably read them all. Beats working (barely).

[LA Muskie]

One would imagine (though I suppose one could be wrong) that the ACC by-laws have choice of law and choice of venue provisions that all parties agreed to (thus Maryland would have waived its sovereign immunity with respect to matters related to the by-laws in that particular venue).
I disagree with XU87's take on sovereign immunity. NC would have to recognize it, unless they want to crater the system. But as I pointed out in my initial post, Maryland may well have waived the immunity as part of admission into (or founding) the ACC.

[GoMuskies]

UC tells the ACC "UofL and UConn suck. Look at us bitches!": http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8683593/cincinnati-bearcats-making-strong-push-join-acc-source

[Masterofreality]

UC tells the ACC "UofL and UConn suck. Look at us bitches!": http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8683593/cincinnati-bearcats-making-strong-push-join-acc-source

Riiiiiiiiight.

U and your barely 20,000 on national tv football last week.

[paulxu]

Here's the actual court filing of the ACC. It may answer some venue questions. It's pretty short.

I was struck by the fact that all the rest of the schools authorized the filing against Maryland. Is that sort of a way to figure out how much they would have to pay if they left for another conference?


http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/sports/acc-vs-university-of-maryland-college-park/154/

[xubrew]

I think media markets are the most overrated thing in this whole mess. I'm sure there are a lot of people that don't feel that way, but I just see it as a point of huge overemphasis.

For starters, with services like DirecTV, the whole country is basically one market.

Secondly, it doesn't matter how big a market is if no one in that market gives a shit about a certain team. No one in NYC gives a shit about Fordham. Teams like Syracuse and Pitt, which aren't even located in NYC, undboutedly score bigger ratings in NYC than Fordham does.

On the flipside of that, Norman Oklahoma, Bloomington Indiana and Blackburg Virginia are small TV markets, but teams that will command high amounts of viewers are located there. If media markets are as important as many make them out to be, then IUPUI would be a better choice than Indiana and Fordham would be a better choice than Syracuse.

I also think that having two teams in the same market in the same conference isn't necessarily a bad thing. The reason?? It doesn't split the market in half. Say UCLA and USC were in different conferences and had different TV deals with different networks. Half the city would be watching UCLA on Fox, and the other half would be watching USC on ABC. Since they're in the same conference, the whole city is able to watch both teams on just one network. Since they're both in the same conference and both have the same TV deal, the network basically gets to set up the schedule so the games don't conflict, and essentially double-dip the LA market. To say "well, we don't need USC because we already have UCLA" is to basically surrender half the viewers to a different network. One way allows a network to double dip and get the whole city twice. The other way only allows the network to get half the city once.

This is something that I think hasn't been thought out by the people that matter, but Texas and Texas A&M in the same conference was a good thing. Kansas and Missouri in the same conference was a good thing. Pitt and West Virginia in the same conference was a good thing. The entire geographic area (IE TV market) was interested in both teams AND they were all on the same channel. That's not the case anymore.

UCLA and USC in the same conference is a good thing. The ratings are higher becasue they're both in the same league and on the same channel. If they were on different channels, and not in the same league, and were in competition with one another, the audience would literally be cut in half most of the time.

This is just one of the many reasons that I think conference expansion, and a lot of what is driving it, is actually going to kill TV ratings. Yes, there is big money on the table now, but in ten years when the ratings have declined (and they most likely will) that money won't be there when its' time to renew.

[paulxu]

Ah, so you want us to be in the same conference as sUCks. I get it.

[LA Muskie]

Here's the actual court filing of the ACC. It may answer some venue questions. It's pretty short.

I was struck by the fact that all the rest of the schools authorized the filing against Maryland. Is that sort of a way to figure out how much they would have to pay if they left for another conference?


http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/sports/acc-vs-university-of-maryland-college-park/154/
Interesting on a number of points. No mention of forum selection or choice of law. No mention of waiver of sovereign immunity. And no claim for breach of contract premised on anticipatory repudiation -- it's just a dec relief action. Seems like a rush to to the courthouse to try to secure venue to me.

Incidentally, if this can be construed as a claim by the members against Maryland, this may have to go to federal court. Only federal courts can litigate claims among states.

[DC Muskie]

What exactly does grant of rights mean?

[bjf123]

Edit - Posted in wrong topic.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Muskie]

What exactly does grant of rights mean?
As used by the Big 12 (I believe), it essentially assigns the school's media rights to the conference. Which basically makes the school unmarketable because the media rights stay with the old conference even if the school moves (and of course the new conference doesn't want the school without being able to exploit their media rights).

[DC Muskie]

As used by the Big 12 (I believe), it essentially assigns the school's media rights to the conference. Which basically makes the school unmarketable because the media rights stay with the old conference even if the school moves (and of course the new conference doesn't want the school without being able to exploit their media rights).

Why would you give up your broadcast rights?

That explains why the ACC went around and asked schools to give grant of rights, but all of them declined.

[xubrew]

Ah, so you want us to be in the same conference as sUCks. I get it.

Honestly, I really don't know. I think there are pros and cons to it. I don't necessarily want that.

IN GENERAL, I feel teams in the same "markets" or "areas" or whatever the hell you want to call it, generate bigger ratings when they're in the same conference and on the same station. The reason is simple. People in that area care about both teams, and many will watch both teams.

I'm too lazy to pull up their schedule, but I get the sense that Duke and UNC (and to a degree, NC State) don't play too many conference games at the same time. Perhaps they even play on different nights. They're all very close to one another, and they all have a significant following throughout the state. They're also in the same conference, and have the same tv deal on the same channels. People want to watch both teams, mostly to root for one and root against the other. IF those schools were to suddenly be in different conferences, people would be less prone to do that, ESPECIALLY if they played at the same time on different stations.

So, long story short, I don't think it is good for college athletics that so many teams are leaving their historical, traditional and geographic rivals. I completely understand the thought process. It's that conferences need to expand their markets as much as possible so they can generate huge TV deals. It will generate huge TV deals, in fact it already has. That's all on the front end, though. As time goes on, I really think the ratings are going to drop. People in Syracuse who would watch the Georgetown and UConn games are less likely to follow any particular ACC teams that fervently. That is just one of many examples that I think will result in ratings reductions in the years to come. Pennsylvania is now in the ACC market, at least the way the ACC defines it's market in its TV deal. I have a hard time believing that too many people in Pennsyvania care all that much about the Miami vs Wake Forest game. They won't watch, even though it is available in that market. The ratings will be low.

When it comes time to renew the TV deals, the big money won't be there if the big ratings aren't there, and I don't think they will be. So, while all this madness may make sense on the front end, in the long run I think it's a loser.

The golden age is over. The Dodgers have left Brooklyn. Many long standing conference rivalries are being crushed, and that's not a good thing.

[XU 87]

And the worst part about this chase for money is, where is the money going? Is Maryland or Nebraska or (name the college) going to use the increased revenue to fund their cancer research program or to lower tuition? No. This money will be used to pay the head coach $5 million per year instead of $3 million and the assistants will get $750,000 per year insted of $500,000. And I suppose there may (emphasis on "may") be some more funding/scholarships for some of the minor sports. But even so, this "run for the revenue" will benefit a very, very small population of the colleges.

[paulxu]

Why would you give up your broadcast rights?

That explains why the ACC went around and asked schools to give grant of rights, but all of them declined.

I can see the look on the ND guy's face when they asked him to give up his media rights.

[LA Muskie]

Why would you give up your broadcast rights?

That explains why the ACC went around and asked schools to give grant of rights, but all of them declined.
The only reason would be to shore up the conference. That's why the Big 12 did it. Problem with the ACC and Big East is that they are too far along and everyone thinks that they are the ones who are going to escape. So there's no way in hell they are voting to tie themselves up.

[paulxu]

I think I read that the Maryland guy (and everybody) voted for the ACC buy-out last year in raising it to 12 or 24 or some million.
But I'm assuming he voted against the raise to $50 million. (Along with FSU?)

Wonder if ND is bound by the buy out?

But in reading the court filing, I would think the ACC would have to prove Maryland's departure will hurt them in direct damage by that amount.
That would seem hard to prove.
Of course if the whole damn thing blew up, no one would care. But assuming there is a surviving ACC if the BE implodes, were they hurt that much?

I wish they'd just go to the big 4 and forget all this nonsense.

[xudash]

So, today's Jacksonville paper had a commentary article by its lead sports columnist Re FSU.

The gist of it? That FSU is in serious trouble if it stays in the ACC. The 'noles got their butts handed to them last weekend on their home turf by the Gators. There ranking profile has been a disaster all season; they're really not even on the radar now.

They're about to go into a conference championship game that literally has cheap seats selling on Internet sites for $3.50. No, I didn't miss any zeros in that last sentence - - hey, I'm in Charlotte this weekend, do I want to spring for a Big Mac or go to a game (guy then decides to eat food on Saturday instead).

You have to know that FSU and V Tech, as the more serious football members of the ACC, are really burning the mid-night oil over all this. Everyone will now watch this Maryland litigation, but, fee or no fee, they still absolutely know that they cannot afford to continue in the ACC if legitimate shots at national championships for them is the goal.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

@blauds: Louisville reportedly one vote short of getting approval to come to ACC

mark blaudschun ‏@blauds
@Dgrace75 @Mengus22 Yes that would be 3/4. I can't confirm voted which way. I was told after the vote that Ville needed one more school.

[xudash]

I think I read that the Maryland guy (and everybody) voted for the ACC buy-out last year in raising it to 12 or 24 or some million.
But I'm assuming he voted against the raise to $50 million. (Along with FSU?)

Wonder if ND is bound by the buy out?

But in reading the court filing, I would think the ACC would have to prove Maryland's departure will hurt them in direct damage by that amount.
That would seem hard to prove.
Of course if the whole damn thing blew up, no one would care. But assuming there is a surviving ACC if the BE implodes, were they hurt that much?

I wish they'd just go to the big 4 and forget all this nonsense.

So, Maryland could further argue against the idea of one-off or linear results with respect to damages: "we're not the only party engaged in these transitions, and others will likely follow us from this league." There is no clean way to calculate direct damages, especially as you continue to bring new teams into the conference, which you must defend as value-added additions.

Frankly, I haven't had enough vodka to fully think this one through yet.

[xudash]

http://www.vuhoops.com/big-east/2012/11/27/3697852/big-east-reacts-moving-villanova-closer-to-irrelevance-in-athletics

[DC Muskie]

http://www.vuhoops.com/big-east/2012/11/27/3697852/big-east-reacts-moving-villanova-closer-to-irrelevance-in-athletics

Man, that's depressing to read.

[GoMuskies]

Man, that's depressing to read.

Yeah, those assholes think we're mid-major. F*&k them!

[BMoreX]

Yeah, those assholes think we're mid-major. F*&k them!

Coming from the fanbase whose team just lost to Columbia.

[OTRMUSKIE]

This reported by TD Flyer on udpride.com

From a usual reliable source, the seven basketball schools of the Big East are in discussion about forming a 12 team conference. The other five will be Temple, Xavier, Butler, VCU, and St Louis. I hope this is in the same category as the end of the world prediction, but nevertheless it is most unsettling.

http://udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18751&page=17

Also

http://m.si.com/404038/where-do-they-go-from-here/

And

http://www.accsports.com/blogs/david-glenn/2012112714123/acc-will-vote-on-expansion-wednesday-morning.php

[OTRMUSKIE]

From what I gather ACC to hold 7am conf call to invite Louisville only.

[BBC 08]

The Louisville beat reporters are saying that nothing is definite on Louisville getting an invite but the Louisville administration feel better than they did earlier today.

[GoMuskies]

Hopefully those that planned to vote against Louisville will oversleep.

[GoMuskies]

Have I ever mentioned to you guys how ACC football is totally superior to Big East football?

[BBC 08]

Have I ever mentioned to you guys how ACC football is totally superior to Big East football?

I haven't seen any posts from you that says otherwise and agree completely.

[OTRMUSKIE]

How will this benefit X if Louisville does get an invite? They will still have UCONN and UC. Would that be enough for the BBall schools to break away?

[LA Muskie]

How will this benefit X if Louisville does get an invite? They will still have UCONN and UC. Would that be enough for the BBall schools to break away?
I'm hoping he's wrong, but according to that MHver3 twitter guy, who seems to have contacts inside the Big East, the two basketball-only holdouts for a Big East grant of rights were Georgetown and St. John's (UConn and Louisville also refused). The sense is that UConn and Louisville are as good as gone, and that Georgetown and St. John's are making a full-court press to get into the ACC but if they don't they will double down on the Big East and agree to the grant of rights. If true, that would essentially mean that this realignment doesn't trickle down to us.

[LA Muskie]

How will this benefit X if Louisville does get an invite? They will still have UCONN and UC. Would that be enough for the BBall schools to break away?
UConn has to be gone too. Seems like there's just too much water under the bridge at this point. Plus, the ACC is going to have to replace more than just Maryland in the end.

[GoMuskies]

Brett McMurphy‏@McMurphyESPN

ACC presidents expected to add Louisville Wednesday industry source tells @ESPN http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8685360/acc-expected-vote-add-louisville-cardinals-source-says …

[BMoreX]

Jeff Goodman ‏@GoodmanCBS

CBSSports has confirmed that the ACC has voted to add Louisville to the league.

[bleedXblue]

I'm hoping he's wrong, but according to that MHver3 twitter guy, who seems to have contacts inside the Big East, the two basketball-only holdouts for a Big East grant of rights were Georgetown and St. John's (UConn and Louisville also refused). The sense is that UConn and Louisville are as good as gone, and that Georgetown and St. John's are making a full-court press to get into the ACC but if they don't they will double down on the Big East and agree to the grant of rights. If true, that would essentially mean that this realignment doesn't trickle down to us.

LOts more moves are going to happen.

Why would the ACC add bball only schools when none of the other mega confernces are doing it ?

[coasterville95]

Someone check on the athletic staff at UC. I can't imagine they are in a good mood with UofL getting the nod while they did not. I mean, they put all that effort into that "Why we're better than Louisville" media campaign yesterday.

And so the moves begin. The Big East loses one of its top remainig football properties. Rutgers abandons ship last week. I'm sure Tulane will be a fine replacement for Louisville, or is it Eastern Carolina that is replacing Louisville.

We just need for the Big East to lose their respectaable programs to the Big 4 and the ACC, and pretty soon they will have a league called the "Big East" that is actually worse than the A10. Okay, that may be an exaggeration, and if UC is still party to it, their fans will never see it that way, and thebig East isn't all bad, after all they haven't signed Fordham and LaSalle yet.

[MCXU]

I have created a quick reference guide to help identify Big East teams as of 2015. This is nuts.

Basketball (16)
Temple
Central Florida
Houston
Memphis
SMU
Tulane
Depaul
Georgetown
Marquette
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Villanova
Cincinnati
Connecticut
South Florida

Football (13)
Boise State
Navy
San Diego State
ECU
Temple
Central Florida
Houston
Memphis
SMU
Tulane
Cincinnati
Connecticut
South Florida

[coasterville95]

I thought outside the Big East, fielding a football team was a prerequisiste to joining one of the former Big 6. Then again, the ACC just signed Notre Dame sans Football.

I know it will never happen, and money talks, and all that - but the NCAA needs to sit down with Notre Dame and say - "We encourage you to join a conference, and fight for a bowl spot within those rules. If you inisist on remaining independent, you'll get treated just like any other independent, no special perks. If you go that way, we hope Brian Kelly is as great a coach as you think he is, for your sake"

[Masterofreality]

Brett McMurphy‏@McMurphyESPN

ACC presidents expected to add Louisville Wednesday industry source tells @ESPN http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8685360/acc-expected-vote-add-louisville-cardinals-source-says …

Go's dream has occurred. Orgasm in process.

[muskienick]

LOts more moves are going to happen.

Why would the ACC add bball only schools when none of the other mega confernces are doing it ?

Perhaps because they are as desperate as the Big East and they have failed to see the folly of a hybrid Conference made famous by the on-life-support self-same Big East Conference.

The ACC will soon be eviscerated by the Big 12 and the SEC. The Big 10 may also take its turn at the ACC trough.

The real question is --- are there enough FBS members around to form 3 Conference-USA's (the original, the BE-C-USA, and the ACC-C-USA)?

Perhaps we'll see UC returning to the MAC!!! I believe it has recently had 2 of its teams in the Top 25 while the current Big East has none! HA!!!!!

[xavierj]

Someone check on the athletic staff at UC. I can't imagine they are in a good mood with UofL getting the nod while they did not. I mean, they put all that effort into that "Why we're better than Louisville" media campaign yesterday.

And so the moves begin. The Big East loses one of its top remainig football properties. Rutgers abandons ship last week. I'm sure Tulane will be a fine replacement for Louisville, or is it Eastern Carolina that is replacing Louisville.

We just need for the Big East to lose their respectaable programs to the Big 4 and the ACC, and pretty soon they will have a league called the "Big East" that is actually worse than the A10. Okay, that may be an exaggeration, and if UC is still party to it, their fans will never see it that way, and thebig East isn't all bad, after all they haven't signed Fordham and LaSalle yet.

What special treatment did Notre Dame get? They beat 9 teams who are going to Bowls and two teams that will play in BCS bowls. Who else did that this year? It's not like they played 12 home games against a ton of bad teams and got a free pass. Only way Notre Dame will be in trouble is when Teams like USC, Stanford, Michigan and Michigan St. Refuse to play them.

[MCXU]

Any guesses on who the Big East will vote in to replace Louisville?

My money is on South Dakota State.

Sure they are FCS in Football but I don't think that matters to the Big East anymore.

Also they will lock down the highly coveted Dakota Media Market.

Did anyone else notice that it is only a short 965 mile drive from Boise State to South Dakota State? I smell a Backyard Brawl a brewin!

If scheduling is an issue they can simply admit them as a "Full Time Associate Partial Double Secret Probation Member". This means they participate in all sports in even numbered years that do not include a leap year or that start on Wednesdays and every third year they only participate in basketball and womens indoor tennis.

[Muskied]

Any guesses on who the Big East will vote in to replace Louisville?

My money is on South Dakota State.

Sure they are FCS in Football but I don't think that matters to the Big East anymore.

Also they will lock down the highly coveted Dakota Media Market.

Did anyone else notice that it is only a short 965 mile drive from Boise State to South Dakota State? I smell a Backyard Brawl a brewin!

If scheduling is an issue they can simply admit them as a "Full Time Associate Partial Double Secret Probation Member". This means they participate in all sports in even numbered years that do not include a leap year or that start on Wednesdays and every third year they only participate in basketball and womens indoor tennis.

Only if University of Hawaii turns down the offer.....

[GoMuskies]

The NCAA needs to have a temporary moratorium on its rule about the number of years a group of teams need to be together in a conference to qualify for an auto-bid. At the top level, geography doesn't really matter that much because the money is so good. But at the lower levels, geography should matter a lot. But because schools located close together cannot just redraw the map in a way that makes sense by joining together without losing an auto-bid for five years (which is suidide), we're going to get all kinds of crazy gymnastics to realign without losing that autobid. Denver to the Summit League comes to mind. Does anyone here really think Denver and IUPUI belong in a league together?

[coasterville95]

Sure this year Notre Dame is actually a good team. I was referring to all those years when they put up less than stellar records. I mean, this year, if you can truly say they are one of the top non Big 6 teams, which again this year they seem to be, I'm all for them making a prime Bowl.

But hey, you say Big East is looking for football teams, eh? I think Fordham offers football, don't they? Yeah, they played Big East member Cincinnati this year! I think I see a move a brewing. :) Fordham to the Big East. Sure they have a few issues, but they keep saying they are fully commited to the athletic programs, look they just hired a new men's basketball coach. I'm sure they are a gem in the rough program just waiting to be discovered.

[MCXU]

Does anyone here really think Denver and IUPUI belong in a league together?

The Big East does.

They also think a good name for that league would be "The West Central Alabama Athletic Conference"

[More Cowbell]

If I am the ACC, I just don't see the benefit of adding Cincinnati. Their athletic budget is poor and Cincinnati can't deliver the Ohio market. No one outside of the Cincinnati area would care to see UC play football or have any interest in a possible ACC network. They have had on-field success, but if no one is watching, who cares.

[SM#24]

Go's dream has occurred. Orgasm in process.

Go (and other Louisville fans) are you realy happy about this ?

Granted that right now it's much better than the BE, but it kind of kills the B12 dream doesn't it ?

I'm wondering if they're jumping the gun.

[GoMuskies]

Go (and other Louisville fans) are you realy happy about this ?

Granted that right now it's much better than the BE, but it kind of kills the B12 dream doesn't it ?

I'm wondering if they're jumping the gun.

Of course I'm happy about it. It's still somewhat risky, but it's a going to be better than going down with the Big East basically no matter what. Hell, the Pac 12 may still come along and gut the Big XII at the end of the day, too. Who knows?

[BBC 08]

It wouldn't shock me if what Go just said about the P12 came true. B12 is staying too calm in this and it's shown that only the active will survive the conference realignment.

[LA Muskie]

It wouldn't shock me if what Go just said about the P12 came true. B12 is staying too calm in this and it's shown that only the active will survive the conference realignment.

They are calm because of the grant of rights. And because they are smart enough to know they're no one's #1 choice but plenty if folks' #2 or #3 choices. Even UL would bolt to Big 12 in a nanosecond if they decided to come a-calling....

[SM#24]

Doesn't the grant of rights the B12 agreed to pretty much tie them to each other in the near term ? I can't remember how long the grant was for, but I thought it was 7 years. Not sure how big the Pac12 wants to get anyway. Unless the B12 gutting includes Texas and Oklahoma, I don't really see anyone else that would interest them.

I'm wondering if Louisville was told by the B12 that they are pretty far down the target list.
Also, ACC probably gave them a "we're only adding one and if you don't take it, we'll give the spot to UConn"

[bourbonman]

"Big East bylaws state that the league can be dissolved with a two-thirds majority vote, and dissolution is the only way for each school to avoid the $10 million-$20 million exit fees."

So with Louisville now out, did the BE adding Tulane and ECU yesterday impact the 2/3 majority vote rule? Or maybe Tulane & ECU aren't voting members yet.

[GoMuskies]

So with Louisville now out, did the BE adding Tulane and ECU yesterday impact the 2/3 majority vote rule? Or maybe Tulane & ECU aren't voting members yet.

It's unlikely these guys will want to dissolve. The new Big East is still likely to be their best option financially.

[DC Muskie]

I know this has been asked a million times, but how on earth does anyone pay to watch Tulane and San Diego State play for the Big East title?

Anyone know the ratings for the average CUSA game?

[GoMuskies]

I know this has been asked a million times, but how on earth does anyone pay to watch Tulane and San Diego State play for the Big East title?

Anyone know the ratings for the average CUSA game?

I think the answer, to be honest, is that lots and lots of people bet on college football. Like a lot of people. Those people will watch any college football game they have action on. Some even believe (and a small subset of these folks are right) that they can get an advantage by having knowledge of these "lesser" conferences.

Did I mention that a LOT of people bet on college football?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

@Harry_MiniumVP: Conference USA reacted quickly to loss of ECU and Tulane, adding Middle Tennessee State this morning.

[xudash]

I know this has been asked a million times, but how on earth does anyone pay to watch Tulane and San Diego State play for the Big East title?

Anyone know the ratings for the average CUSA game?

Basically, that is not making inherent sense to anyone. We are - everyone is - looking at match-ups like this across the board, knowing that many of these match-ups will be utterly tuned out in their local markets, and will otherwise have virtually no regional following.

We talk about the components of media that make up television economics: media markets (Nielsen), etc. We talk about an environment that is deemed to be demand driven on the part of sports networking properties starving for content. Yet, when the actual data ratings numbers begin to come in and it is evident these contests are creating black holes over the airwaves, we'll:

[1] Wonder if the media agreement put together for the BE has provisions that allow for ongoing adjustment of the economics, due to the high uncertainty of broadcasting such lower-tier games; and

[2] Wait to see if adjustments actually take place, assuming actual versus projected ratings numbers have material negative variances (adjustments being necessary given the presumption that the an agreement is structured as a multi-year deal, which would be expected given that all these deals are typically structured that way).

Here's what I don't get. I don't understand how the BE will even end up with a media deal, because I would think that it is obvious to anyone and everyone following this stuff that realignment isn't wrapping up just yet. The B12 can't be finished with it, regardless of what Texas wants. Texas is huge in the B12, but Texas is just another power player as far as the SEC and B1G are concerned. Texas has to still think about what is right for its conference. The SEC was making noise last night over the air how rough it is to still have to drive through Atlanta to get to the promised land. They're pissed that the B12 team has no such challenge at present, though it once did.

The B12 is just one example, because I imagine the B1G, in particular, has UNC and maybe UVA in its sights. We know FSU is beside itself in all this, as I noted earlier, given what happened last weekend against the Gators.

How do you complete a media deal in an environment of hyper instability?

How do you complete a media deal that is locally and regionally focused, involving new combinations of teams that have never been matched up before?

In the world of high finance, part of what goes into pricing risk is the degree of uncertainty involved in the overall structure of the transaction. Once upon a time, US Treasury Bills looked like raisins, as far as this goes. This BE media rights deal would be some state fair's winner for largest watermelon.

[xubrew]

Any guesses on who the Big East will vote in to replace Louisville?

My money is on South Dakota State.

Sure they are FCS in Football but I don't think that matters to the Big East anymore.

Also they will lock down the highly coveted Dakota Media Market.

Did anyone else notice that it is only a short 965 mile drive from Boise State to South Dakota State? I smell a Backyard Brawl a brewin!

If scheduling is an issue they can simply admit them as a "Full Time Associate Partial Double Secret Probation Member". This means they participate in all sports in even numbered years that do not include a leap year or that start on Wednesdays and every third year they only participate in basketball and womens indoor tennis.

Bellarmine. Definitely Bellarmine. That way they can hold on to the Louisville market.

Of course, Bellarmine doesn't have football, but I believe Trinity High School, which is also located in Louisville, is one of the top high school programs in the nation. They can bring them in as a football only member. Chances are they'd be able to give Tulane and Memphis a pretty good game.

[BBC 08]

Of course, Bellarmine doesn't have football, but I believe Trinity High School, which is also located in Louisville, is one of the top high school programs in the nation. They can bring them in as a football only member. Chances are they'd be able to give Tulane and Memphis a pretty good game.

Man, FUCK trinity. St. X for life.

[Masterofreality]

Man, FUCK trinity. St. X for life.

Bring back Flaget!!!

[xubrew]

Believe it or not, I'm a St. X alum. The St. X in Louisvile, not the one in Cincinnati. But, Trinity is ranked #1 in the nation, I believe.

Middle Tennessee to Conference USA. That really hurts UC's chances of joining the league. I also doubt that the MAC will look to expand again. They could really be SOL....

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/11/sources-conference-usa-adds-middle-tennessee-state

[bourbonman]

Bring back Flaget!!!

What about St Joe Prep?

[xu95]

What special treatment did Notre Dame get? They beat 9 teams who are going to Bowls and two teams that will play in BCS bowls. Who else did that this year? It's not like they played 12 home games against a ton of bad teams and got a free pass. Only way Notre Dame will be in trouble is when Teams like USC, Stanford, Michigan and Michigan St. Refuse to play them.

I don't think anyone is saying that ND shouldn't be where they are at this year. The "special treatment" they are referring to is that the rules for ND to get to a BCS game is different than the rules for Boise State to get to a BCS game.

[BBC 08]

Believe it or not, I'm a St. X alum. The St. X in Louisvile, not the one in Cincinnati. But, Trinity is ranked #1 in the nation, I believe.

I don't care how good their football program is or how many of my friends went to that god awful school, I will always hate it with a passion.

[xubrew]

I know they're different, but how different are they?? ND needs nine wins and a top twelve finish to get in. I'm pretty sure Boise needs a top twelve finish AND no one from outside the six BCS leagues can be ahead of them.

In other words, if they're #10 and the MAC champion is ranked #9, the MAC champ gets an auto-bid and Boise doesn't.

ND doesn't have that stipulation. They're in regardless. Other than that, there really isn't much of a difference, is there??

To be honest, this changes so often that I can't keep up anymore. I could be way wrong. I like football, but not enough to care about this type of thing.

Having said that, if Kent State wins the MAC title game, gets into the top sixteen and finishes higher in the rankings than the Big East Champion, they'll automatically be in the BCS, and the Big East champ will not be. I don't think Georgia Tech has a chance in hell against Florida State, but lets say they somehow win. We could end up with a Georgia Tech vs Kent State Orange Bowl!!!!! I'm rooting for that.

[danaandvictory]

No post. I'm a moron.

[GoMuskies]

Now it's REAL: http://www.theacc.com/genrel/112812aaa.html

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

This will light up the twitterverse


David Scott ‏@davidscott14
Reports out there today that Middle Tennessee and Florida Atlantic will join Conference USA. #charlotte49ers

[powerofX]

This will light up the twitterverse


David Scott ‏@davidscott14
Reports out there today that Middle Tennessee and Florida Atlantic will join Conference USA. #charlotte49ers

I'm the one person on thi sboard that might care about that... I did some consulting work for them years ago planning for their on campus football stadium. It opened a few seasons ago and is excellent. Was bummed for them when Fl International and their crappy stadium got the nod to Cusa over FAU. Now I can watch the epic Charlotte v FAU battles here in CLT.

[GoMuskies]

Howard Schnellenberger is the man!

[BBC 08]

I don't think this can be stated enough. ACC football has always been great and I have never said anything otherwise.

[powerofX]

Howard Schnellenberger is the man!

And one scary dude to be in a meeting with!

[GoMuskies]

And one scary dude to be in a meeting with!

You should have given him some good bourbon. You'd have been all set. Or MOR could have taught you some old Flaget chants that would have had you on his good side.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Does Temple now stay in the MAC and the A10? Why leave two conferences that are going to be better than the Big East. Big East Basketball is still strong with UC, UConn, georgetown, Memphis, Marquette, Nova, St Johns but honestly their top 7 is on par with our top 7, Xavier, Butler, VCU, St Louis, St Joes, dayton, Umass

[OTRMUSKIE]

Actually their top 7 is probably still better

[Masterofreality]

You should have given him some good bourbon. You'd have been all set. Or MOR could have taught you some old Flaget chants that would have had you on his good side.

Actually, I didn't go to HS in Louisville, my dad's company moved to Nashville and so I went to Father Ryan, but all my male cousins went to St. X. My one cousin was a classmate of Tom Cruise (see Maypother). My dad played football at Male High.

I remember going to those classic Flaget/St. X games though. That was THE rivalry. Trinity was just a wart on an elephant's ass then.

Flaget, for you guys in Cincinnati, was sort of the Elder of Louisville. West side and blue collar, more or less.

[LA Muskie]

Does Temple now stay in the MAC and the A10? Why leave two conferences that are going to be better than the Big East. Big East Basketball is still strong with UC, UConn, georgetown, Memphis, Marquette, Nova, St Johns but honestly their top 7 is on par with our top 7, Xavier, Butler, VCU, St Louis, St Joes, dayton, Umass
Let's not kid ourselves. That Top 7 is still better than ours. (Rather significantly in my eyes.)

[Masterofreality]

Actually their top 7 is probably still better

If you want to believe the New York based press that is probably really pissed that their little cute baby is being drawn and quartered before their eyes. They might actually have to go out and look outside of MSG for other college basketball now.

[BBC 08]

Trinity was just a wart on an elephant's ass then.

Still is.

[Masterofreality]

What is really comical to me is that all of a sudden all of the Eastern based press is coming down on Louisvile's academics. Amazingly, they never, ever did that when U of L was in their vaunted, beloved Big Least. All you heard were glowing comments about the Cards and Quick Rick.

Two faced chumps.

[OTRMUSKIE]

The school name is Flaget? I thought it was a play on words. Thought you were calling St X faggot

[xubrew]

The ACC is what used to be the Big East.

The Big East is what used to be Conference USA.

Conference USA is what used to be the Sun Belt.

Out west, the Mountain West used to be part of the WAC, then it split from the WAC, now it's the WAC again, only it's the Mountain West.

That's progress for you!!

[bourbonman]

The school name is Flaget? I thought it was a play on words. Thought you were calling St X faggot

Named for Bishop Falget.

Flaget was appointed by the Holy See as the first Bishop of the newly-established Diocese of Bardstown on April 8, 1808. This was the largest diocese ever formed in the United States and comprised an area now covering 10 modern states, including Kentucky, Ohio, Tennessee, Michigan, Indiana and others. Today this area includes 35 dioceses. This was the first Diocese west of the Alleghenies.

[xsteve1]

Really surprised the Big East chose East Carolina and Tulane over UMass.

[BMoreX]

Really surprised the Big East chose East Carolina and Tulane over UMass.

I wouldn't be surprised if UConn tried to block them.

[GoMuskies]

Really surprised the Big East chose East Carolina and Tulane over UMass.

They probably didn't. They probably just got the paperwork done sooner for ECU and Tulane.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Bash me if you want, but at what point does the A-10 start kicking out Fordham/St. Bonaventure/URI and start inviting Georgetown, Villanova, and Marquette.

Charlotte is gone right after next year to Conference USA. UMass presumably will leave for a football conference. That leaves quite a few schools without football teams or DII/crappy football teams. Why not just replace those that leave with football teams by asking schools that don't that are better quality. Does the conference leadership really know that Georgetown would absolutely say no? Honestly if I was Georgetown I wouldn't jump on it but I wouldn't say no right away either.

Big East basketball is not going to be fantastic in 2014 and beyond. Why not leave for the A-10 assuming they kick out some of the dregs.

Georgetown/UConn would top the league with Temple/sUCk/Marquette/SDSU in the middle and a bunch of bottom feeders. ECU, Boise, Depaul, Nova, South Florida, these are bottom feeding teams. Nova can claw it's way back but is a bottom team right now.

[BBC 08]

I'll give everyone three guesses as to who wrote this UC slurpfest. Two don't count.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2012-11-28/acc-expansion-louisville-cincinnati-uconn-big-east

[GoMuskies]

So....UK has a substantial portion of the Louisville market, but no mention of Ohio State in Cincinnati?!? Seems legit.

[_LH]

I'll give everyone three guesses as to who wrote this UC slurpfest. Two don't count.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2012-11-28/acc-expansion-louisville-cincinnati-uconn-big-east

UC fans, including those that have a column in the Sporting News, continue to be completely out of touch with reality. Cincinnati the city does not follow UC football. They follow B10 and ND before UC. Louisville might have a smaller market but they have way more people watching and attending their games in both football and bball. For Mike to think the B12 wants UC is also just really out of touch. UC offers them nothing.

[Masterofreality]

The ACC is what used to be the Big East.

The Big East is what used to be Conference USA.

Conference USA is what used to be the Sun Belt.

Out west, the Mountain West used to be part of the WAC, then it split from the WAC, now it's the WAC again, only it's the Mountain West.

That's progress for you!!

And SucKS is in no man's land.

Suck it Borecat fan.

[Masterofreality]

So....UK has a substantial portion of the Louisville market, but no mention of Ohio State in Cincinnati?!? Seems legit.

Typical Mike DeCoursey, who for some unknown reason, since he's from Pittsburgh and used to write in Memphis, worships at the porcelain commode that is SucKS. No, the Borecats do not dominate the fan base in Cincinnati. Look at their impressive attendance, which Mike conveniently leaves out.

[DC Muskie]

58,000 came to see the football team play someone who doesn't play in the ACC.

Good argument.

What would be bold is if UC fans actually showed up at the Shoe on a regular basis.

Xavier can sell out playing LaSalle over the years, but I should be impressed they came out to see Oklahoma once? That's a trend?

Please.

[paulxu]

If the ACC takes Louisville to replace Maryland, what does that do to their lawsuit in terms of calculating the buyout value?

[Nigel Tufnel]

My random thoughts on this epic thread:

1. I listened to WLW tonight for about 5 minutes (about as much as I can handle) and heard Lance McAllister talking about why the ACC chose Ville over UC. One thing he said is that Louisville sells out a 21,000 seat Arena (Yum Center...which is very nice) every home game. In UC's first 4 home games, they barely sold more than 21,000 tickets. I actually looked it up and he was pretty close. That's pretty hard to believe for a state university with a ranked basketball team. They had between 5,500 and 5,900 for their first four games. Pretty pathetic.

2. That Decoursey article was ridiculous. Most people I know in the Cincinnati area are OSU football fans. Those that root for UC football went to UC....everyone else couldn't care less....at least that's my observation from living in the area for quite some time.

3. I have an unhealthy obsession with this thread.

[XU 87]

Typical Mike DeCoursey, who for some unknown reason, since he's from Pittsburgh and used to write in Memphis, worships at the porcelain commode that is SucKS. No, the Borecats do not dominate the fan base in Cincinnati. Look at their impressive attendance, which Mike conveniently leaves out.

Mike Decourcey has also written in the past many good things about Xavier. He even picked X to go to the Final Four before West's senior year. He used to post on the old MM giving us some recruiting info (Justin Doellman for example) until people insulted him.

[BBC 08]

3. I have an unhealthy obsession with this thread.

Oh good. I'm not the only one.

[wkrq59]

Observations:
UC is stuck in the Big Least for the time being even if they were to get an invitation from ACC which is the only other conference that would have them, despite their AD's former Big12 connections. Know why? Where the hell are they going to get the $50-million exit fee for leaving Neo-CUSA, aka Big Least???????
Hell, they don't even have the money to pay their existing debts now.
Xavier is in the best position conference-wise now than it has ever been. Even with defections of Templa and Charlotte, friends, the A10 strategically for basketball is in the best position it has ever been. It has its tournament in the self-styled media center of the known world. It has a participating team in Fordham. Sooner of later in the Least, teams like Seton Hall, St. Johns, Villanova, and maybe even Georgetown are going to start looking for relief from the CUSA expatriates and maybe there will be room for them and maybe not. I know this, UC is lucky football season is ending, because they would draw fewer people to their games in that new football setup of the Least than ever.
Might be interesting to watch that UC-UConn football game Saturday to find out how pissed the people up in Stoers are about the comments being made about them by UC people and fans these days.
:slapfight::laugh::chainedup:

[GoMuskies]

The Big East exit fee is a lot less than $50 million.

[coasterville95]

It's the ACC that has the 50 million exit fee.

I like the supposed comment about from the ACC. We only need one team right now, so well only take one. Besides its not like they have anywhere else to go until we need them. :).

So Saturday is the Big East Disgruntled Teams Bowl.

Great timing for the Why We Are Better Than uConn campaign.

[X-band '01]

Observations:
UC is stuck in the Big Least for the time being even if they were to get an invitation from ACC which is the only other conference that would have them, despite their AD's former Big12 connections. Know why? Where the hell are they going to get the $50-million exit fee for leaving Neo-CUSA, aka Big Least???????
Hell, they don't even have the money to pay their existing debts now.
Xavier is in the best position conference-wise now than it has ever been. Even with defections of Templa and Charlotte, friends, the A10 strategically for basketball is in the best position it has ever been. It has its tournament in the self-styled media center of the known world. It has a participating team in Fordham. Sooner of later in the Least, teams like Seton Hall, St. Johns, Villanova, and maybe even Georgetown are going to start looking for relief from the CUSA expatriates and maybe there will be room for them and maybe not. I know this, UC is lucky football season is ending, because they would draw fewer people to their games in that new football setup of the Least than ever.
Might be interesting to watch that UC-UConn football game Saturday to find out how pissed the people up in Stoers are about the comments being made about them by UC people and fans these days.
:slapfight::laugh::chainedup:

Does this mean that we won't see "Big East" in all caps in future UC press releases now?

I'd have to believe that UConn, UC and South Florida were nothing more than to give the ACC leverage in order to let Louisville into the conference. UConn burned a lot of bridges with the ACC (specifically Boston College) a few years back when BC bolted.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

The Dude of WV ‏@theDudeofWV
B12 makes play for 4 from ACC.

Tad Taylor ‏@net0man
@theDudeofWV humor me with specifics pls.

The Dude of WV ‏@theDudeofWV
@net0man Later.. about 1 pm.

[paulxu]

I wonder if Louisville is one of them?

[GoMuskies]

I wonder if Louisville is one of them?

That would take us into bizarro world, would it not?

[bleedXblue]

ACC is going to be the new Big East

B12 is going to pick the plum ACC schools.......UNC, Fla State, Clemson and ???

[SM#24]

I don't know what to call a lot of these schools anymore, are Syr, Pitt, UL Big East teams or ACC teams ?
So many lame ducks now that we may see more TCUs (a MW team that was an announced Big East team that ended up a Big XII team).

[paulxu]

Duke to keep them together?
GT to have a Georgia presence for recruiting?
VA to expand the footprint?

[SM#24]

How much of plum is Clemson really ? What do they really bring other than a cool game day atmosphere ?

[paulxu]

That would take us into bizarro world, would it not?

They're counting on you and BBC to help them pay 2 exit penalties at once.

[GoMuskies]

UNC is not going to the Big XII. That much is certain. SEC or Big Ten? Maybe.

[xudash]

Observations:
UC is stuck in the Big Least for the time being even if they were to get an invitation from ACC which is the only other conference that would have them, despite their AD's former Big12 connections. Know why? Where the hell are they going to get the $50-million exit fee for leaving Neo-CUSA, aka Big Least???????
Hell, they don't even have the money to pay their existing debts now.
Xavier is in the best position conference-wise now than it has ever been. Even with defections of Templa and Charlotte, friends, the A10 strategically for basketball is in the best position it has ever been. It has its tournament in the self-styled media center of the known world. It has a participating team in Fordham. Sooner of later in the Least, teams like Seton Hall, St. Johns, Villanova, and maybe even Georgetown are going to start looking for relief from the CUSA expatriates and maybe there will be room for them and maybe not. I know this, UC is lucky football season is ending, because they would draw fewer people to their games in that new football setup of the Least than ever.
Might be interesting to watch that UC-UConn football game Saturday to find out how pissed the people up in Stoers are about the comments being made about them by UC people and fans these days.
:slapfight::laugh::chainedup:

Before getting to q's post, allow me to help Nigel and BBC 08 feel a little better about this: "I have an unhealthy obsession with this thread." I can assure you that I probably make you two appear perfectly sain when it comes to this thread, so, by all means, keep posting!

q, I agree with you that Xavier presently is in the best position its ever been conference-wise, Of course, we're talking about going from independent status to the MCC to the A10. Nonetheless, given the additions of Butler and VCU, and given the conference's track record of multiple bids and good performance in conference rankings based on conference RPI's, I agree that it has been a serviceable home. I also like the move to Brooklyn. That's the kind of move that can provide very positive perceptions of the league, helping it to increase in stature moving forward, assuming the venue is embraced (i.e. has people show up in reasonable numbers to watch the games).

BUT, here's the rub: the A10 has failed repeatedly to address its underperforming members. More to the point, and especially now with all this realignment activity going on, the A10 leadership, including its best-positioned, most successful members, should define what constitutes the make-up of a viable A10 member. Were that work to be completed, LaSalle would find itself on a street corner with no underwear. Fordham would get tossed. Notwithstanding the Brooklyn venue, that needs to happen. So those two have to go. The next two make for tougher decisions. Duquesne would be a hard decision, because of its raw potential, distant past, and ability to compete with the right coach (remember 10k in Pittsburgh for Xavier's game against the Dukes a few years ago). The problem with Duquesne is that it is demonstrating that it can't make it back; how much time do you give a program to get a clue? SBU is SBU: an overachiever and a prideful program, but its size and location preclude it from truly being taken seriously for where things are headed. Perhaps only two should be jettisoned, for now. Some believe all four should be found new homes. What we do know is that it is a fact that that mix of problems cause real and perceived damage to the A10.

If you want the A10 to really be the horse we ride for years to come, it has to be trimmed at the bottom. We don't need a crap, third wheel in Philly that has no money to fix its hideous bandbox. We don't need a Jesuit University in NY that doesn't appreciate the value of athletic programs to an institution and probably couldn't manage its way well in athletics if it did understand the value.

Otherwise, with large student population public schools like UConn, UC, Temple, and Memphis - all having a good to solid standing in hoops - the A10 will continue to be perceived to be a notch below the BE, especially when you throw in Georgetown, Marquette and Villanova.

If I'm planning for it, the goal becomes: Transition to a Hoops-Centric Conference That is Positioned as the Strongest Basketball Conference Outside of the B4. It's that simple. That's where we ultimately want to be. That technically will be hard to achieve, because, assuming that the 4x16 model comes to fruition, there will still be an ACC containing the remnants of leftover former BCS schools, possibly including the likes of Duke, Wake, UC, UConn, etc. Either way, we need to continue to strive for that, aligning ourselves with institutions like Georgetown, not LaSalle.

What I do believe - long story shortened - is that the A10 has been serviceable, but it isn't the vessel to take us where we should be with respect to conference affiliation.

[coasterville95]

Maybe bizarro, and I don't think they will make the move for Louisville as they were probably not an ACC member when the deal went down.

But even if it is or isn't - if its true the Big XII is going to announce 4 ACC members as new members - that will surely help get this carousel up into 5th gear. Forget this one here, one there, when you grab 4 at once, thats a big gaping hole the ACC will fill. It will be very telling to see how they fill it. The Big East answer seeems to be "Do you play scholarship football? Great, come join us!", while the ACC seems to be trying to maintain its pride through this and still sticking to its principles in selecting new members. they question becomes how many quality footbal programs are availalbe that meet whatever their critieria is. (And of local interest, how much shot does UC really have in that regard?)

[paulxu]

Dash, the challenge I see with your analysis above is that there's really only one place to go...a BigEast basketball only conference.
We're not going to get in the Big4, and the ACC will still mostly be football.

For the schools you mentioned in our conference who aren't pulling their weight...they are still "inside the walls" as you described other makeups.
Unless they leave on their own accord, perhaps for some lower tier football opportunities, they probably can't be kicked out.

Which leaves us right back where we started a few years ago. Hopeful that the BE BB schools form a conference with us in it, or that the BE implodes to such an extent that what's left doesn't generate enough football $ for them to stay on board.

[RealDeal]

So I'm not an expert on this as many on this thread are, but I remember Jay Bilas and Dick V expressing concern 6 or so months ago that the Big 4 conference setup would destroy the NCAA tourney as these conferences would have their own tournament. Is this still out there?

[xudash]

Dash, the challenge I see with your analysis above is that there's really only one place to go...a BigEast basketball only conference.
We're not going to get in the Big4, and the ACC will still mostly be football.

For the schools you mentioned in our conference who aren't pulling their weight...they are still "inside the walls" as you described other makeups.
Unless they leave on their own accord, perhaps for some lower tier football opportunities, they probably can't be kicked out.

Which leaves us right back where we started a few years ago. Hopeful that the BE BB schools form a conference with us in it, or that the BE implodes to such an extent that what's left doesn't generate enough football $ for them to stay on board.

Paul,

Allow me to clarify a couple things.

Firstly, I'm not trying to get us into a B4 conference; I know that's not happening. What I want for Xavier is for it to be in that next or second next best conference position to the B4, and be there by a mile. I want for Xavier to be in a BE basketball only conference with the right mix of teams, which should result if the 7 BE hoops schools ride out the hybrid until it is dead, watching the remaining BE (C-USA at best) football schools exit for some other solution at the point where a television package for the BE becomes untenable.

So, from a pecking order point of view, the basketball landscape would include:

- The Big4 conferences.
- The new ACC comprised of former BCS schools left behind, plus others (e.g. Wake, BC, UConn, UC, Syracuse, Pitt, etc.).
- The BE Basketball conference (e.g. Xavier, Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, etc.).

After that group of 6 conferences (hey, how about that, a kinda BCS 6 revisited) can come the distant C-USA, MWC, WCC, A10, etc. Such positioning could set up that new BE hoops conference for success and a unique, strong perception in the sport.

Absent an ability to effect that, I don't buy the already "inside the walls" argument for our deadwood. I don't believe it has to be a malicious process. But it should be a sober, realistic process; it should be clear to certain existing members of the A10 that they don't belong and that it's time to help them move along.

If a conference can vote in a $50 million dollar exit fee for itself (that one will go down into history as a truly remarkable play) then conferences can vote to change their by-laws to include minimum requirements for sustained membership in the conference. This always should be about like-minded institutions, committing resources to an area they deem to be strategic in order to strengthen their overall position. Set it up where LaSalle and Fordham can't make the cut, then, rather than violently tossing them out the door, work with them and for them to get them transitioned to something that will work for them. I suspect the CAA would take one or both in a heartbeat at this point. Perhaps Fordham could go back to the Patriot League and die a quiet death, similar to Holy Cross.

Change is raging all around us. I don't buy for a second that the A10 is precluded from doing what it should do for its strategic best interests and for what is best for its most desired, productive programs. Are there enough votes, you might ask? Assuming a two thirds majority is required, I think so:

No Vote:
- Temple
- Charlotte

Yeah:
- Xavier
- Dayton
- St. Louis
- UMass
- URI
- St. Josephs
- GW
- Richmond
- Butler
- VCU

Nay:
- LaSalle
- Fordham
- SBU
- Duquesne

10/14; 71.43% = Passed. Assuming a 3/4 vote is required, someone quietly calls the Presidents of SBU and Duquesne to let them know that this is about giving the conference, as it now exists, sans Temple and Charlotte, a shot at long-term survival, in which they'll be able to participate. Otherwise, instability will continue to be the watchword. On that basis, assuming those to convert to "yeah's" you have a 12/14; 85.71% vote (Passed).

BTW, managing the PR aspects of this would be so easy it would be funny. LaSalle, in particular, would not dare pursue sour grapes in the media. They'd get blown out of the water, based on their track record, Gola, third wheel status and attendance figures. Fordham would be looking at the same issue. More to the point, by pursuing all this on a mutually acceptable basis, including helping to find homes for them, everyone could step to the podium and simply state that these changes were best for all parties concerned, etc.

[MHettel]

It's literally impossible to make any sense of anything. If one year ago you told every sports fan in the country to predict the membership plans for the "big 6"conferences as of 11/29/2012 there would be zero winners.

So, just jump ahead all of the moves. The big 4 remaining power football conferences will have 64 teams at most. Not sure how it all would work out, not sure I care. But I'd really love to see this scenario work out. I believe at this point it's a "best Case" scenario for an XU outcome.


Assume Syracuse, UofL, UConn and UC are all left out of the Big 4. So are Duke, Wake and BC. Thats 7 football teams. Add Temple to get to 8. GTown, Nova, ND, St. Johns, Marquette, XU, Seton Hall, Providence are 8 bball members. (I dont care if you tinker with Seton Hall or Providence and instead add Butler and Depaul- whatever).

Point being, if you arent invited to the select group of 64 (and there will be many schools which are not), then you BETTER start thinking about preserving your basketball status by surrounding yourself with the deepest group possible. thats a POWERHOUSE league, potentially better than what any of the Big 4 would look like....

[MHettel]

Paul,

Nay:
- LaSalle
- Fordham
- SBU
- Duquesne

10/14; 71.43% = Passed. Assuming a 3/4 vote is required, someone quietly calls the Presidents of SBU and Duquesne to let them know that this is about giving the conference, as it now exists, sans Temple and Charlotte, a shot at long-term survival, in which they'll be able to participate. Otherwise, instability will continue to be the watchword. On that basis, assuming those to convert to "yeah's" you have a 12/14; 85.71% vote (Passed).


Just so I'm clear on what you mean here. The four votes against throwing out 4 particular teams were cast by those teams. So the plan is to call 2 of them and have them change their mind on the premise that it increases the long term survival likelihood of a conference that they wont be a part of.

Is that right?

If you and I are ever on a plane which is low and gas and we're miles from an airport, I'd like to have a short discussion with you about our options for dumping weight.

[chico]

I don't think I'll ever get my head around all of this until it settles, so if someone has brought this up I apologize. With Notre Dame in the ACC, aren't they going to have an odd number of teams for either football or basketball unless they take another basketball only school? Does this even matter? If it does matter - and they want an even number - I wonder if they would look at one of the Big East schools or possibly X as a non-football school to even things out.

[chico]

Just so I'm clear on what you mean here. The four votes against throwing out 4 particular teams were cast by those teams. So the plan is to call 2 of them and have them change their mind on the premise that it increases the long term survival likelihood of a conference that they wont be a part of.

Is that right?

If you and I are ever on a plane which is low and gas and we're miles from an airport, I'd like to have a short discussion with you about our options for dumping weight.

My reading Dash's of post is that in this scenario he's only talking about dumping LaSalle and Fordham.

[xu95]

I don't think I'll ever get my head around all of this until it settles, so if someone has brought this up I apologize. With Notre Dame in the ACC, aren't they going to have an odd number of teams for either football or basketball unless they take another basketball only school? Does this even matter? If it does matter - and they want an even number - I wonder if they would look at one of the Big East schools or possibly X as a non-football school to even things out.

I think Xavier would be a perfect fit in the ACC, but unfortunately I don't see it happening. We could be Louisville's travel partner though.

[xudash]

Just so I'm clear on what you mean here. The four votes against throwing out 4 particular teams were cast by those teams. So the plan is to call 2 of them and have them change their mind on the premise that it increases the long term survival likelihood of a conference that they wont be a part of.

Is that right?

If you and I are ever on a plane which is low and gas and we're miles from an airport, I'd like to have a short discussion with you about our options for dumping weight.

No, that isn't right, but perhaps I wasn't careful enough to spell it all out in that post.

If a core group of institutions can come to agreement on the need for addressing the conference's weak bottom, then they first have to define what constitutes that bottom. They then have to brush up on the by-laws to see how voting works for material decisions to understand how many votes would be needed to effect the change.

This obviously assumes that some nasty work has to go on behind the scenes. As an example, Xavier and programs x, y and z - programs the conference perceives it really cannot afford to lose - first come to firm agreement on pursuing this as that core group. They then quietly call the next, likely aligned group to gain their commitment. Considering everything involved, including acting upon 4 versus 2 teams, SBU's recent and historical success, the Pittsburgh market, etc. they collectively probably could only swallow the idea of moving on the bottom two teams anyway.

If it's a 2/3 voting proposition, they know they'll not need SBU and Duquesne's votes to pass it, but they include them in the final discussions prior to the formal vote, because those schools will continue to be conference mates and blindsiding them wouldn't exactly be a great idea at that point. However, if the voting is a 3/4 threshold deal, then they absolutely have to be brought into it, with a commitment being made to them that the conference will not make any more composition related moves for, let's say, 60 months. Five years would be deemed plenty of time by Duquesne for getting its ship in order. SBU would simply plan on finding a way to get back to the Tournament on an occasional basis to help its cause.

Otherwise, all this is done or not done in relative short order. Xavier and the others would quickly learn of the various programs' appetites for pursuing such a move. If the aggregate agreement comes together, the meeting is held, the motion is presented and passed and all involved begin to work out the details for making a smooth transition for landing LaSalle and Fordham elsewhere.

Otherwise, I'll help you to the door of the plane.

And I've waisted too much time on this notion as it is, because Xavier can sit back for now and continue to watch the realignment process unfold, knowing that, even if things now settle down, following the UL announcement, realignment most likely isn't finished, and that will continue to potentially drive Xavier to an opportunistic decision.

[xudash]

It's literally impossible to make any sense of anything. If one year ago you told every sports fan in the country to predict the membership plans for the "big 6"conferences as of 11/29/2012 there would be zero winners.

So, just jump ahead all of the moves. The big 4 remaining power football conferences will have 64 teams at most. Not sure how it all would work out, not sure I care. But I'd really love to see this scenario work out. I believe at this point it's a "best Case" scenario for an XU outcome.


Assume Syracuse, UofL, UConn and UC are all left out of the Big 4. So are Duke, Wake and BC. Thats 7 football teams. Add Temple to get to 8. GTown, Nova, ND, St. Johns, Marquette, XU, Seton Hall, Providence are 8 bball members. (I dont care if you tinker with Seton Hall or Providence and instead add Butler and Depaul- whatever).

Point being, if you arent invited to the select group of 64 (and there will be many schools which are not), then you BETTER start thinking about preserving your basketball status by surrounding yourself with the deepest group possible. thats a POWERHOUSE league, potentially better than what any of the Big 4 would look like....

That only works if two things happen:

1. The football schools can live with a hybrid format, which will not be an easy sell for the former ACC schools that probably frowned on the BE because of it; and

2. Those same schools can find a way to make such a hybrid work for their Olympic Sports, knowing that the basketball schools cannot field as many teams as do they.

I get the idea of optimizing for basketball if you've otherwise been subordinated for football, but the above issues would find their way into the decisioning process at some point.

The best case for Xavier is for the B4 to pursue the 4x16 model. That is perfectly clear, because that will have the effect of gutting the ACC, which will have the further effect of virtually killing the BE as a hybrid conference. I'm still waiting to see if the BE CAN get to a TV deal, not how much such a deal could generate.

[DC Muskie]

You think GW and SJU would be able to meet any sort of required standards?

Hell you can't pick up a GW game on the radio here outside of Foggy Bottom.

[paulxu]

I'm sticking with the Paul Plan when Georgetown discovers it's got to pay the plane fare to ship it's rowing skulls to San Diego State for a little swim in the Pacific.

[DC Muskie]

What's the timetable for the BEUSA Conference television deal?

Is it like the chicken or the egg thing?

Like they won't get a good deal if BSU, SDST aren't in, but on the other hand would BSU and SDST be stuck in a bad TV deal with enormous travel costs now?

[xudash]

You think GW and SJU would be able to meet any sort of required standards?

Hell you can't pick up a GW game on the radio here outside of Foggy Bottom.

"Criteria x: an investment in facilities within the last y years of a minimum of z dollars (make it $10 million) that served to better position the program for success........"

I didn't say it would be easy, but it can be set up. It will be obvious that it's about flushing LaSalle and Fordham, but it can be done.

[MHettel]

I understand all three points. Even if faced with compromising on all of them, I cannot imagine they wouldn't for the sake of their BBall programs.

Point one in particular has reasoning that is outdated. The BE had a hybrid model that presumably was frowned upon and didn't work for a number of reasons. But that was during a whole different set of conditions. The shifting landscape requires that teams reconsider what was once thought to be unreasonable or unworkable as an option.

[GoMuskies]

Boise's travel costs won't change all that much. They're only in the Big East for football. That's three or four games a year with extra travel, and it's not like most of their MWC foes are right next door.

[xudash]

What's the timetable for the BEUSA Conference television deal?

Is it like the chicken or the egg thing?

Like they won't get a good deal if BSU, SDST aren't in, but on the other hand would BSU and SDST be stuck in a bad TV deal with enormous travel costs now?

That's my point. How do you get to a deal in this environment? How can you price something out that you know is most likely going to change before the ink dries on the agreement?

I would think the TV people are at the point of running some models to be ready, given certain scenarios, but why spend airfare to hash out details of an agreement that could be DOA at any time?

[xudash]

I understand all three points. Even if faced with compromising on all of them, I cannot imagine they wouldn't for the sake of their BBall programs.

Point one in particular has reasoning that is outdated. The BE had a hybrid model that presumably was frowned upon and didn't work for a number of reasons. But that was during a whole different set of conditions. The shifting landscape requires that teams reconsider what was once thought to be unreasonable or unworkable as an option.

I agree with that, but, assuming there are enough football programs out there to fill their dance card, they probably go in that direction. At least they probably will look to solve it on that basis before concluding that fully optimizing for basketball by bringing hoops schools into the fold is the way to go.

[Masterofreality]

Good commentary by Gregg Doyel here.

GTown, Nova and others gotta take control of their situation and quit their arrogance that they will be kow-towed to.

http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/21188646/big-easts-basketball-schools-are-in-danger-of-being-run-over-by-realignment

[LA Muskie]

Good commentary by Gregg Doyel here.

GTown, Nova and others gotta take control of their situation and quit their arrogance that they will be kow-towed to.

http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/21188646/big-easts-basketball-schools-are-in-danger-of-being-run-over-by-realignment

This is exactly what I have been saying. I know they want the $$$ but clinging to the short-term cash (which won't be all that great) will lead them to being utterly irrelevant very soon. It is a very short-sighted strategy, and not enough short-term upside to make it worth it.

[xudash]

Good commentary by Gregg Doyel here.

GTown, Nova and others gotta take control of their situation and quit their arrogance that they will be kow-towed to.

http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/21188646/big-easts-basketball-schools-are-in-danger-of-being-run-over-by-realignment

Truly worst case scenario:

Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, Seton Hall, DePaul, Marquette, Uconn, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, BC, Duke, Wake Forest, Miami, Louisville, USF, Cincinnati, Memphis, Temple.

[LA Muskie]

Truly worst case scenario:

Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, Seton Hall, DePaul, Marquette, Uconn, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, BC, Duke, Wake Forest, Miami, Louisville, USF, Cincinnati, Memphis, Temple.

It would be a bummer for me as a Xavier basketball fan who wants to see us step up to the next level. But after I got past the disappointment I'd really like that league as a college basketball fan.

[xudash]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/big-east-needs-to-return-to-basketball-roots-rather-than-chase-football-crumbs/2012/11/28/9de56016-3975-11e2-8a97-363b0f9a0ab3_story_1.html

I like how Feinstein sees it:

So, what should happen? The remaining members from the group that made the conference famous — Georgetown, St. John’s, Villanova, Providence and Seton Hall — should join with Marquette and DePaul and try to lure Xavier, Dayton and Saint Joseph’s from the 16-team Atlantic 10 to form a new conference called “The Real Big East.”

None of those nine schools plays top-level football. They are all great basketball schools that have had major success in the past and, in most cases, have strong programs today. No, they’re not all in the East, but at least no one is west of the Central time zone. They would get a big-time basketball-only TV contract from someone, and because none of them plays big-time football, their costs are a fraction of those fielding 85-scholarship teams.

And they would be a real league: round-robin play could come back and, if the conference didn’t want to pay to play at Madison Square Garden, it could move the conference tournament to the Barclays Center or (even better) the Palestra, the cradle of the college game in the best college basketball city in the country. Yes, it is smaller (about 9,500 seats) but it would be packed and tickets would be at a premium.

[coasterville95]

I'm kind of hoping that twitter rumor about the Big XI holding a press conference today to announce they are poaching 4 ACC programs is true.

Because that will be like pushing the first domino - Big XII raids the ACC, I have to think the ACC responds by raiding whatever in Big East has any kind of merit, which leaves the Big East with all the filler programs it added in the last year or so purely for the sake of numbers, but none of the meat. Hmm, All-Fillers, that's healthy. Unless the Big East gets smart - and who in their right mind would sign a deal with the Big East at the current time unless they were desperate for a percieved upgrade, they will be forced to add even more filler at which point you would have a truly crappy football leage.

At that point I have to think the basketball only schools will FINALLY get the picture that they are red headed step children in all of this and start to go shopping for other options. At which point the A10 open house can commence. Sure we only went to 16 for this year to accomodate not letting VCU and Butler get manhandled by their former conferences, we could say 16 works, allow uMass to leave for football aspirations, that gives us three openings to accept defecting Big East teams. if XuDash can swing his deal to constructively uninvite Fordham and Lasalle, that's 5 slots for quality Big East basketball only programs. Just sit back and imagine what that could look like, Just be sure either St. Johns and/or Seton Hall is in the mix and you still have a NYC presence and Barclays still makes sense.

[coasterville95]

XU Dash - you keep finding even better ideas. Even the Palestra idea has marketing potential all over it. Imainge marketing it as the conference that is brining college basketball BACK to its roots. Imagine the ESPN tournament coverage "Coming at you from the Historic Palestra.."

[SM#24]

"The Big East knows what it wants to be, but doesn't realize it'll never get there. And so it becomes weaker. Every few days, it seems, another relevant school leaves or another irrelevant school joins. The Big East is a haphazard collection of useless junk. It started out as a designer boutique of basketball; now it's Kmart. "
I think this is the only thing Gregg Doyel has ever written I agree with.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Dan Wolken ‏@DanWolken
RT @ruscoop: Not directed at anyone, but if you think BE hoops schools should split, A10 TV contract is 350k a year. http://bit.ly/ODgEmO

Dan Wolken ‏@DanWolken
@NationWideNolan A 10-team hoops league or whatever offers networks a very small package of TV inventory, none of which is very valauble...

Dan Wolken ‏@DanWolken
Said it before, but worth saying again. C-USA football champ game had better TV rating last year than UNC/UK hoops in same timeslot.

Dan Wolken ‏@DanWolken
I'm not saying Big East hoops schools won't ever break off. But proponents of such a move aren't fully considering the economic dynamics.

[DC Muskie]

XU Dash - you keep finding even better ideas. Even the Palestra idea has marketing potential all over it. Imainge marketing it as the conference that is brining college basketball BACK to its roots. Imagine the ESPN tournament coverage "Coming at you from the Historic Palestra.."

I love the Pelstra, but man having a tournament there would be like being back in 7th grade.

[xudash]

Dan Wolken ‏@DanWolken
RT @ruscoop: Not directed at anyone, but if you think BE hoops schools should split, A10 TV contract is 350k a year. http://bit.ly/ODgEmO

Dan Wolken ‏@DanWolken
@NationWideNolan A 10-team hoops league or whatever offers networks a very small package of TV inventory, none of which is very valauble...

Dan Wolken ‏@DanWolken
Said it before, but worth saying again. C-USA football champ game had better TV rating last year than UNC/UK hoops in same timeslot.

Dan Wolken ‏@DanWolken
I'm not saying Big East hoops schools won't ever break off. But proponents of such a move aren't fully considering the economic dynamics.

What clarity of thought. He's truly caught onto something with those press-stopping statements.

I don't think we think they should split.

I presume most here are simply wondering what the tipping point is for understanding that going hoops-centric is in their best interests. How many more schools, such as UConn, have to be lost to the ACC until BE vC-USA can't deliver sufficient television dollars? That last question assumes that any further losses like UConn would trigger the western schools to stay home by joining the MWC.

Having noted that, I still believe a top-flight hoops-centric model really hasn't been tested yet. Assuming the A10 can now command $315k per school, what would an optimized hoops conference command, understanding that part of those economics would come from a partially gutted A10? What would that look like per school, $500k? $750K?. If it is already believed that the newly configured BE is looking at approx. $1.06mm per hoops school at the low end, knowing that all that would come with continued major-league poor alignment and instability, is it worth it at the margin, especially if you kick your gate receipts in the teeth, rather than work to build true hoops rivalries over time?

And on it goes.............

[xudash]

XU Dash - you keep finding even better ideas. Even the Palestra idea has marketing potential all over it. Imainge marketing it as the conference that is brining college basketball BACK to its roots. Imagine the ESPN tournament coverage "Coming at you from the Historic Palestra.."

I hate to sound vindictive, but I like the Palestra idea because I foresee LaSalle graduates working as ticket takers and concession personnel for the tournament.

[SM#24]

ESPN's Scott Van Pelt today:
Tonight we have Louisville against Rutgers in the ACC-Big Ten challenge for the Big East title.

[XUglow]

ESPN's Scott Van Pelt today:
Tonight we have Louisville against Rutgers in the ACC-Big Ten challenge for the Big East title.

...and yet... no one really cares. OK, Go cares ...and Becky Quick cares... but outside of Go and Becky, there is very little interest.

[GoMuskies]

...and yet... no one really cares. OK, Go cares ...and Becky Quick cares... but outside of Go and Becky, there is very little interest.

No one other than fans of the participating teams cares about 99% of college football games. No one really cares about FSU/GT for the ACC title either. And no one really cares about K-State/Texas for the Big XII title. This isn't exactly a Big East specific issue or a Rutgers/Louisville issue.

And for all you bettors, I don't think Teddy Bridgewater is playing much or at all for Louisville tonight. That means Louisville is probably starting a midget former walk-on from BBC's favorite school (Trinity) at QB. Plan accordingly.

[BMoreX]

Just as a general point about realignment, what every school should do is have a conference for football, a conference for basketball, and a conference for all non-revenue sports.

The non-revenue sports conferences would be primarily centered geographically. That way, travel costs are at a minimum. Football and basketball conferences can stretch the nation to maximize exposure, TV markets, and competition.

[DC Muskie]

Didn't Rutgers sell out their stadium?

Man basketball is screwed if 52,000 people can show up for football and not even care.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Random blog musings:


Just like I have heard from the Austin side of things, he is hearing it on the East Coast - the Big 12 and the ACC football schools are talking. Behind the scene arrangements are being made on how to help them with exit fees. The Big 12 is being generous. It would be a surprise to this journalist, and to me, if some current ACC schools aren't in the Big 12 when the 2014 season kicks off. Interestingly enough, while these schools are in a wait & see mode, they aren't waiting on finding out Maryland's exit fee. They are waiting on.....

*.....the Big 10. Every journalist on the East Coast has a different source telling them that the Big 10 will SOON add 2 more ACC schools. BC is being talked about but UNC, Ga Tech are the primary candidates. I'm sure that doesn't surprise you. What may surprise you is that Ga Tech may very well be on the top of the list. Who the Big 10 selects will have a trickle down effect on the SEC and the Big 12, regarding available teams, so things are in limbo for the moment....but it shouldn't last long.

* The most interesting aspect of this drama is how this is playing out at FSU. Not so much their communications with the Big 12 (intermediaries {rich alumni} are regularly used in roles like this to offer deniability to University Presidents and ADs) but the communication between FSU board members. Most public universities can take board meetings into executive session where no written record is kept. That makes talking about realignment rather easy. Not so with FSU.....the Sunshine Laws in the State of Florida prohibit this. In fact, if 2 board members discuss state business anywhere under any circumstance, there is a legal requirement for a written record. As you can imagine, college realignment talk between board members has to be carried out in interesting ways through creative back-channels to cover everyone's ass. We are talking some James Bond **** here. It takes a little longer for FSU to process information and to react because of these shenanigans, and this has consequences for many entities in realignment. FSU is the blue ribbon addition for the Big 12, and Clemson and Miami are likely to follow the lead of the Seminoles. We are all going to have to be patient.

I know a lot of Big 12 fans are worried about the conference being only at 10 members right now. I have always felt this concern was ill-founded. The Big 12 has the Grant of Rights, the Sugar Bowl tie-in with the SEC and 2 of the top 7 college football programs of all-time. Even the Big 12's most desired asset, Texas, is politically hand-cuffed to Baylor and Texas Tech and the LHN would make any transition all the more difficult. If that doesn't pacify you then I hope this post does. Some heavy-hitter additions are coming to the Big 12. The 2014 season will be something very special.


http://tuxedoyoda.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-cloak-dagger-side-of-conference.html

More rumblings about GT and the Big 12

http://www.eersauthority.com/expansion-update-georgia-tech-on-the-clock-the-big-12-makes-a-push/?doing_wp_cron=1354224178.4183919429779052734375

[Masterofreality]

Meanwhile,

No body wants SucKS.......


........for now.

[muskienick]

Just as a general point about realignment, what every school should do is have a conference for football, a conference for basketball, and a conference for all non-revenue sports.

The non-revenue sports conferences would be primarily centered geographically. That way, travel costs are at a minimum. Football and basketball conferences can stretch the nation to maximize exposure, TV markets, and competition.

That is a good (but not original) idea. There is also a caveat to the "good" aspects of that idea. The coordination and logistics of such a plan would be a huge obstacle. Furthermore, there are actually some conferences that already, for the most part, have most of the characteristics already needed. The MAC, the MAAC, the Patriot, the Ivy, the Northeast, the MVC, the Horizon, and the MEAC come immediately to mind (minus a couple of associate or otherwise newer members of the MAC like UMASS and maybe Buffalo). Their clustering in the eastern half of the Country would possibly adversely affect the creation of geographically logical conferences for the "Olympic Sports" since the aforementioned Conferences may simply want to maintain their current structure due to both geographical convenience and long-standing tradition. Who else would form the Conference for the Olympic Sports teams of UD, Butler, Xavier, NKU, Duquesne, & UC or would they all just play each other 2-4 times each season?

A number of us here have always claimed that the A-10 has the potential to be a great Conference if only contraction were given some serious consideration. We simply do not need the likes of Fordham, LaSalle, Duquesne and St. Bona's among our number (and it pains me to include the Bonnies in this list given how well they have come back from their death sentence). With Temple and Charlotte leaving and UMass probably lusting after a full all-sports Conference membership (in the Big-C-USA-EAST?), we'd be down to 9 quality members and that would leave us with seven spots to fill to get to the mega-conference level of 16 (if that were deemed either necessary or advantageous).

When UConn and UC bolt for the ACC (following its further poaching by the B1G and SEC), the remaining BB-7 will learn that the FB remnants of the Big East will not be able to command the TV Contract that the former Big East did and they'll also find themselves with hat-in-hand sitting fore-lornly in a waiting room in Connecticut languishing there while an ESPN exec erases some zeroes from his earlier (rejected) contract proposal for Big East sports programming. Those seven would then, perhaps, see the wisdom of coming on board with those 9 A-10 schools to re-create the excitement and wealth of "Monday Night with The Big East on ESPN"! (We'll let 'em keep the Conference name when they join us.)

[Cheesehead]

Meanwhile,

No body wants SucKS.......

........for now.

their facilities aren't helping. Really outdated compared to the majority of BCS caliber schools. The Shoe sucks and Nippert is very small.

[paulxu]

The Shoe sucks and Mick is very small

FTFY

Wonder if the canadian spam bot shoe fetish guy who posts here all the time is a disgruntled bearcat.

[SM#24]

Nick,
If it does happen, I do not see the BE7 coming to the A10 with hat in hand; I see them approaching select A10 schools. That way, Gtown, PC, Nova are not saddled with market dups (GW, RI, St Joe's). Just can't see those three agreeing to share a conference with neighbors they (and pretty much everyone else) perceive as inferior.

[xudash]

Perspective from Omaha:

http://www.omaha.com/article/20121128/BLUEJAYS/711289843/1070#shatel-switching-leagues-wouldn-t-be-easy-call

A former president of St. Joseph's in Philadelphia, Lannon has contacts in the Atlantic 10 Conference and Big East. He's playing his comments straight down the middle, as he should.

“I talked with some of the presidents of the Atlantic 10 and some in the Big East, and my comment to them was if there is a change or opportunity, that we would have an interest, at least in talking to them,” Lannon said.

Gee, I wonder if Father Graham was involved.........

[xudash]

Random blog musings:



http://tuxedoyoda.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-cloak-dagger-side-of-conference.html

More rumblings about GT and the Big 12

http://www.eersauthority.com/expansion-update-georgia-tech-on-the-clock-the-big-12-makes-a-push/?doing_wp_cron=1354224178.4183919429779052734375

He is absolutely spot-on about the Florida sunshine laws. You don't mess with them.

[xudash]

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/dukenow/duke-ad-kevin-white-on-expansion-louisville-clearly-was-the-best-option

From South Bend to Durham: Kevin White on adding L'ville.

He also thinks it will all settle down now. Poor bastard.

[vee4xu]

It is beginning to look like the A-10 is actually on a road to basketball respectability while the Big East is struggling for basketball identity. Ironic.

[DC Muskie]

I'm into lists, so when I read that Big 12 has 2 of the top 7 teams of all time...what I come up with (in no particular order)

1. Texas
2. Oklahoma
3. Ohio State
4. Michigan
5. Notre Dame
6 USC
7. Alabama

Thoughts?

[ballyhoohoo]

1089

[DC Muskie]

Lawyer people why is this bad for the ACC?

It gets worse if the courts determine the ACC buyout is punitive (a widely held belief) and Maryland gets off paying less than the $52 million.

[BMoreX]

Lawyer people why is this bad for the ACC?

It gets worse if the courts determine the ACC buyout is punitive (a widely held belief) and Maryland gets off paying less than the $52 million.

Not a lawyer, but Im pretty sure that will entice other ACC schools to leave the conference because they know that they wont have to pay the full exit fee.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

[LA Muskie]

Lawyer people why is this bad for the ACC?

It gets worse if the courts determine the ACC buyout is punitive (a widely held belief) and Maryland gets off paying less than the $52 million.

It would mean the exit fee is not a constraint on mobility. But I don't think that case can have as much impact as people think -- it won't be decided by a court soon enough. The most that case can do is set precedent by the conference via settlement. (Just as what happened with the Big East and its 27-mo notice provision).

[MHettel]

I'm into lists, so when I read that Big 12 has 2 of the top 7 teams of all time...what I come up with (in no particular order)

1. Texas
2. Oklahoma
3. Ohio State
4. Michigan
5. Notre Dame
6 USC
7. Alabama

Thoughts?

possibly Nebraska? wonder if Florida and Miami or FSU would break the top 10?

[DC Muskie]

But specifically the punitive part. Of course it's punitive, that's the point right? How can something you agree to be punitive and then have it ruled that because of it, it now works in your favor? Meaning Maryland agrees to the punitive exit fee by remaining members before it leaves, only to have a court rule that the entire exit fee is punitive?

And what's the difference of paying $50 million or less than that amount, if the exit fee itself is ruled punitive?

[waggy]

The argument will be that the amount is punitive. The will look at the exit fees of other conferences as a comparison. For example, I don't think the SEC even has an exit fee.

[DC Muskie]

The argument will be that the amount is punitive. The will look at the exit fees of other conferences as a comparison. For example, I don't think the SEC even has an exit fee.

Oh okay that makes sense. Reps.

[xudash]

But specifically the punitive part. Of course it's punitive, that's the point right? How can something you agree to be punitive and then have it ruled that because of it, it now works in your favor? Meaning Maryland agrees to the punitive exit fee by remaining members before it leaves, only to have a court rule that the entire exit fee is punitive?

And what's the difference of paying $50 million or less than that amount, if the exit fee itself is ruled punitive?

Maryland voted "No" on that matter.

[DC Muskie]

This might be out of left field, and I'm no lawyer, but say I sat on a city council on laws that I don't not agree to, but if I break them, does the punishment mean I don't have to abide by it?

Like if I voted a pro open containers law but didn't win and the council votes against open containers and I get arrested for my 40, does the fact I voted for it mean I don't have to pay a fine?

It's a little bit of a reserve argument, but I don't understand how Maryland can vote against something and then not be expected to pay. I know we discussed this earlier so it might be moot.

[LA Muskie]

DC, the reason Maryland will argue that the exit fee is punitive in nature is that most states don't permit an award of liquidated damages (which is to say not actual, proven damages for breach of contract that are punitive in nature. Liquidated damages for breach of contract are permitted only where it would be extremely difficult to ascertain and prove actual damages, and where the liquidated damages a a reasonable approximation of what actual damages would be suffered as a result of a breach.

Thus, for example, if I put a $10 million liquidated damages provision in my contract with my dog walker, I likely won't be able to enforce it if he breaches even if he voluntarily agreed to the provision.

[wkrq59]

Dash, just one tiny thought. I doubt Xavier will make any move to join anybody unless the $$$$$$$$$$$ are there and they can afford it. Like the Mafia, they'd rather eat their young than part with money. I still like that line from Prizzi's Honor. And I think it appropriate. Fear of being fined caused the appointment of the damned board that lost Dez, and numerous other decisions have been made for many other reasons but were really caused by money. And right now, Xavier does not have the money to go charging into the rarified air of the ACC and for that matter I suspect neither do a lot of Catholic schools, including Notre Dame.

[X-band '01]

The argument will be that the amount is punitive. The will look at the exit fees of other conferences as a comparison. For example, I don't think the SEC even has an exit fee.


Oh okay that makes sense. Reps.

To be specific, Florida State wants to know what the exit fee will be before they possibly bolt to the Big 12.

[DC Muskie]

DC, the reason Maryland will argue that the exit fee is punitive in nature is that most states don't permit an award of liquidated damages (which is to say not actual, proven damages for breach of contract that are punitive in nature. Liquidated damages for breach of contract are permitted only where it would be extremely difficult to ascertain and prove actual damages, and where the liquidated damages a a reasonable approximation of what actual damages would be suffered as a result of a breach.

Thus, for example, if I put a $10 million liquidated damages provision in my contract with my dog walker, I likely won't be able to enforce it if he breaches even if he voluntarily agreed to the provision.

So the difference between liquidated damages and proven damages is basically things that you think will happen rather than what actually has happened?

Like Maryland leaving will hurt our television contract and hurt us financially, rather then say, Maryland came to our campus and burned it to the ground?

[Pluto]

I'm into lists, so when I read that Big 12 has 2 of the top 7 teams of all time...what I come up with (in no particular order)

1. Texas
2. Oklahoma
3. Ohio State
4. Michigan
5. Notre Dame
6 USC
7. Alabama

Thoughts?

Penn State
Texas A&M?

[SM#24]

possibly Nebraska? wonder if Florida and Miami or FSU would break the top 10?
Nebraska yes; Fla schools, not even close (Fla 23, Miami 49, FlaSt 93).

Top 30 based on all-time wins through 2011 (removes "vacated" wins including 112 for Penn St, 29 for Alabama; all other schools vacated wins were in the 1-18 range)
per Wikipedia

1 Michigan 900
2 Texas 858
3 NotreDame 853
4 Nebraska 851
5 OhioState 825
6 Oklahoma 821
7 Alabama 814
8 Tennessee 794
9 SouthernCalifornia 779
10 Georgia 747
11 LSU 733
12 Auburn 718
13 PennState 715
14 WestVirginia 701
15 Syracuse 691
16 VirginiaTech 689
17 GeorgiaTech 687
18 TexasA&M 681
19 Arkansas 680
20 Pittsburgh 677
21 Colorado 674
22 Washington 670
23 Florida 669
24 Miami(OH) 664
25 Clemson 657
26 Navy 656
27 California 655
28 Army 652
29 Minnesota 646
30 NorthCarolina 646

[GoMuskies]

Florida and Miami both had bad programs until the '80s. Howard Schnellenberger saved Miami's program, and Steve Spurrier came along from Duke and turned sleepy Florida's program into a powerhouse. FSU was pretty lousy until Bobby Bowden came around, too.

[paulxu]

FSU was pretty lousy until Bobby Bowden came around, too.

That happens when you are an all girls school.

[GoMuskies]

True, but they had men and played football for 30 years before Bobby showed up.

[SM#24]

FlaSt's first season was not until 1947.

[GoMuskies]

And Bowden's first year was 1976.

[paulxu]

This thread has had 155,000 views.
I wonder if that is some sort of a record?

[GoMuskies]

This thread has had 155,000 views.
I wonder if that is some sort of a record?

5-6 people probably account for about 145,000 of those views.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Lots of GT to the Big10 rumors starting up again. If Maryland settles this exit fee with the ACC in the 20mil range, we could see a mass exodus

Ohio State Football ‏@TheShoeAtOSU
Several sources say Big Ten has approved #GeorgiaTech to the BIG. They will be number 15 #B1G #B1Ghaters

Lamont Broadus ‏@TheSportologist
Sources say #GeorgiaTech maybe the latest team to join the #BigTen #College #Sports #followme #follow #lates http://instagr.am/p/SpuuOJFivQ/

VTScoop247 ‏@VTScoop247
#Hokies rumors that the B1G (Big 10) has approved Georgia Tech for membership. Get ready for some fireworks if true...


@Snide_Remarks: Reports now Georgia Tech joining Big 10. Get two more and Loh can call it ACC division of Big 10 and not pay $50M

The Dude of WV ‏@theDudeofWV
@theDudeofCU they are. But GT to B1G sets off the mass exodus.

The Dude of WV ‏@theDudeofWV
@superpeen45 no. ACC knows they are gone.

The Dude of WV ‏@theDudeofWV
@Dgrace75 What? You don't read do you. I broke GT yesterday.

The Dude of WV ‏@theDudeofWV
The ACC just changed the exit fee to match the song the 12 days of Christmas. They're hoping a partridge in a pear tree will be hard to find

MHver3 ‏@MHver3
I'm being told Jimbo Fischer was assured by FSU that the Seminoles will be in either the SEC or the B12 by 2016

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Also found this.

"University of Virginia President Teresa Sullivan is warning students and faculty of the potential cuts that could come from the looming fiscal cliff.

UVA faces millions of dollars in possible cuts to federal financial aid and research if lawmakers on Capitol Hill fail to reach a deal by the end of the year"

http://www.nbc29.com/story/20211163/uva-fiscal-cliff

This would help explain the Virginia Big10 talk rumors from earlier.

[XUglow]

Didn't Rutgers sell out their stadium?


No, they didn't. Biggest population market in the US. Big East title on the line. Lot's of empty seats in the upper deck.

If they do well in the Big Ten, they might pack the stadium and expand. If they are a 0.500 team or worse, they will play to a half-empty stadium like Indiana does.

Some of the moves these conferences are making don't make much sense. Tulane to the Big East for football? 5,000 people in the Superdome for football must impress someone. I don't get it.

[Masterofreality]

So, if GTech and another soon to be named school exit the ACC, guess who's gonna get bailed out in this whole thing?

Probably SucKS! Dammit!!! They don't have the money to play, though.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20121130/NEWS/311300027

That and Xavier's situation are the only two things I really care about through this whole messy maze.

[GoMuskies]

I think Rutgers had 52,000.

BTW, they were vast swaths of empty seats in Athens last week for Georgia/Georgia Tech. And that was an in-state rivalry with Georgia playing to keep its national championship hopes alive. Again, the attendance/interest issues aren't exactly unique to current Big East members.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I think Rutgers had 52,000.

BTW, they were vast swaths of empty seats in Athens last week for Georgia/Georgia Tech. And that was an in-state rivalry with Georgia playing to keep its national championship hopes alive. Again, the attendance/interest issues aren't exactly unique to current Big East members.

That's weird. In my first ever visit to Atlanta, I witnessed a fist fight between a Georgia and Georgia Tech fan in the bathroom. Can't believe it wouldn't sell out at Georgia with the kind of year Georgia is having and the the average year GT is having.

CLEMSON 247 @Tim_Matty247: Sources are indicating that the #B1G has approved #GT as its 15th member. Stay tuned...

[MHettel]

Nebraska yes; Fla schools, not even close (Fla 23, Miami 49, FlaSt 93).

Top 30 based on all-time wins through 2011 (removes "vacated" wins including 112 for Penn St, 29 for Alabama; all other schools vacated wins were in the 1-18 range)
per Wikipedia

1 Michigan 900
2 Texas 858
3 NotreDame 853
4 Nebraska 851
5 OhioState 825
6 Oklahoma 821
7 Alabama 814
8 Tennessee 794
9 SouthernCalifornia 779
10 Georgia 747
11 LSU 733
12 Auburn 718
13 PennState 715
14 WestVirginia 701
15 Syracuse 691
16 VirginiaTech 689
17 GeorgiaTech 687
18 TexasA&M 681
19 Arkansas 680
20 Pittsburgh 677
21 Colorado 674
22 Washington 670
23 Florida 669
24 Miami(OH) 664
25 Clemson 657
26 Navy 656
27 California 655
28 Army 652
29 Minnesota 646
30 NorthCarolina 646

To me, a list of wins is not necessarily the same as a list of the most successfull teams of all time. Below, people mention that FSU didn't have a team until 1947, so right there Harvard had a 47 year head start. But Bowden arrived in 1976 apparently, and he's got 300+ wins (not sure where he was prior to FSU and how many wins he had when he got there). Anyway, interesting list but just misses the mark a little bit. Florida is one spot above Miami (OH)...

[outsideobserver11]

hmm...now that Louisville is off the table, UC to the Big 12 is starting to gain some legs again since the Big 12 wants in this market and thought they had Louisville on the back burner.

[XUglow]

I think Rutgers had 52,000.

BTW, they were vast swaths of empty seats in Athens last week for Georgia/Georgia Tech. And that was an in-state rivalry with Georgia playing to keep its national championship hopes alive. Again, the attendance/interest issues aren't exactly unique to current Big East members.

Rutgers announce 52,700. Stadium capacity is 52,400. People must have been jammed up in the lower decks.

For UGA, student seating is sold to students and cannot be transferred to others. During Thanksgiving, most schools see a huge drop in student attendance when the game doesn't get the students' attention. The game was to keep UGA in the national title run, but no one really believed that GT was going to put up much of a fight, and they didn't.

Louisville is a much better sports school than Rutgers. The Big Ten wants the NYC area, but if Rutgers sucks in B1G play, the NYC crowd won't care.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

hmm...now that Louisville is off the table, UC to the Big 12 is starting to gain some legs again since the Big 12 wants in this market and thought they had Louisville on the back burner.

My opinion on this is that the Big 12 could have had Louisville at any point in the last year. Louisville was begging them for an invite and they didn't get it. If UL didn't get an invite I don't see how UC will get an invite especially with potential teams like Clemson, FSU, BYU, Miami, etc in the mix

[SM#24]

To me, a list of wins is not necessarily the same as a list of the most successfull teams of all time. Below, people mention that FSU didn't have a team until 1947, so right there Harvard had a 47 year head start. But Bowden arrived in 1976 apparently, and he's got 300+ wins (not sure where he was prior to FSU and how many wins he had when he got there). Anyway, interesting list but just misses the mark a little bit. Florida is one spot above Miami (OH)...

I don't disgaree, but I think the initial comment of the Big XII having 2 of the top 7 was in reference to all-time wins.

Also, however you want to measure "all-time" success, I don't see the top 10 including the Florida schools. there was a lot of football played before 80s.

[GoMuskies]

A couple of my personal favorite college football attendance pics from this season:

http://media.kentucky.com/smedia/2012/11/03/16/18/wK5WH.AuSt.79.jpeg

http://media.kentucky.com/smedia/2012/11/03/16/18/1qWPbL.AuSt.79.jpeg

Kentucky to the Big East?

[outsideobserver11]

A couple of my personal favorite college football attendance pics from this season:

http://media.kentucky.com/smedia/2012/11/03/16/18/wK5WH.AuSt.79.jpeg

http://media.kentucky.com/smedia/2012/11/03/16/18/1qWPbL.AuSt.79.jpeg

Kentucky to the Big East?

Nothing but respect for that poor fella. He bought a ticket for that seat, so he is going to sit in it!

[xudash]

My opinion on this is that the Big 12 could have had Louisville at any point in the last year. Louisville was begging them for an invite and they didn't get it. If UL didn't get an invite I don't see how UC will get an invite especially with potential teams like Clemson, FSU, BYU, Miami, etc in the mix

I Agree.

My first reaction to the last number of threads - especially your threads - is that the rumors about GTech to the B1G appear to be coming from so many different places that they must have some validity. I never really bought into the "island" problem. We have things called airplanes now that travel more quickly than stagecoaches and trains; who cares, particularly in this crazy athletic arms race if one member of a midwestern league (now + mid-Atlantic) comes from the South, especially when another southern school will probably be following them. Besides, adding the Atlanta market would be huge for the B1G.

With UL going to the ACC - that feels like transferring from the Lusitania to the Titanic to me right now - and assuming GTech to the B1G becomes true, I would think the flood gates at that point would only be held up by a crumbling Maryland exit fee.

[XUglow]

Kentucky to the Big East?

...and yet they beat a team that is probably going to play in a BCS Bowl by 33 pts. Imagine if GT beats FSU, and they pit GT vs Kent State in The Orange Bowl.

UK fans went out of the way to get Barnett's attention. I haven't read any fan reaction to Mark Stoops' hire, but they have got to be underwhelmed.

[SkyWalker]

This thread has had 155,000 views.
I wonder if that is some sort of a record?

Tweets Ya Gotta Love has more than 400,000 views.

[_LH]

So, if GTech and another soon to be named school exit the ACC, guess who's gonna get bailed out in this whole thing?

Probably SucKS! Dammit!!! They don't have the money to play, though.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20121130/NEWS/311300027

That and Xavier's situation are the only two things I really care about through this whole messy maze.

I want UC to get screwed in this whole thing but best case for UC is they end up in the the new ACC which by the time UC is added will be the BE from 2005. UC will never be a major player in college football.

[paulxu]

With UL going to the ACC - that feels like transferring from the Lusitania to the Titanic to me right now - and assuming GTech to the B1G becomes true, I would think the flood gates at that point would only be held up by a crumbling Maryland exit fee.

Do you think the UL looked down the road, and decided that the best basketball in the country might be played in the new ACC and that's not a bad place to land? I guess that's probably dumb because of all the $ in football, so it probably makes more sense that the Big 12 told them they were never going to be a candidate, so they just left the ugliness that is Bigeast football.

[bigdiggins]

Wow Tennessee @ 8. Were they mentioned in the how quick a program can fall apart thread?

[GoMuskies]

...and yet they beat a team that is probably going to play in a BCS Bowl by 33 pts.

Not sure what's relevant about that (especially since Kent is probably going to lose to NIU despite the fact that I prefer going to the Sugar over going to the Orange).

Kentucky would be a perfect fit for the Big East, though they'd struggle in football.

[xudash]

Do you think the UL looked down the road, and decided that the best basketball in the country might be played in the new ACC and that's not a bad place to land? I guess that's probably dumb because of all the $ in football, so it probably makes more sense that the Big 12 told them they were never going to be a candidate, so they just left the ugliness that is Bigeast football.

That's how I'm reading it.

And I wonder if the B12 now has the same look on its "face" as Belushi did when Otter told him he was right about it not being over.

[xudash]

A rather creative piece of thinking from the Georgetown board:

It's cold here in SoCal but the guys on the bench met again as usual. Allow me to summarize the suggestion. A few pages ago on this thread, someone suggested bundling the Basketball schools and selling the bundle to one of the conferences. Let's give that some thought. Big East football remains as is or not. A new league is formed with Basketball only schools. Ten, twelve schools, Big East members, add X. or Butler, or whatever, but instead of trying to get a network deal we sell the TV rights of the bundle as a whole to one of the major conferences. What would the B1G, for example, pay the new league to have the rights to televise their games in DC, NYC, Philly, Cinci, Memphis, etc.? If you live in NYC and want to watch the old Big East go at each other, you have to subscribe to the B1G network. There can be games bwn the two leagues. The ACC with Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Pitt, Ville, and all will be a great Hoops league, but Indiana, tOSU, Wisc, Sparty, Georgetown, Nova, UConn, X, Butler, won't be far behind. What does the B1G get out of it: increased cable subscribers, exposure of their brand into major markets, opening up areas to B1G sports, and the opportunity to renegotiate a better deal with a major network? I bet we can get more $ in this scenario, than going it alone. In a few years, when the contract runs out, we will have made our own bed. If we provide great enterntainment, our price goes up, if we don't we have only ourselves to blame.
--vagrant

[paulxu]

The Dude weighs in:

http://www.eersauthority.com/acc-goes-boom/

NB: If UL ends in Big 12 = shortest conference affiliton ever

This would leave ACC as mostly a basketball league

[xudash]

More of the obvious insights:

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/11/conference_realignment_the_acc_big_east_and_big_te n_are_all_failed_experiments.html

[GoMuskies]

The Dude makes stuff up. And then when people repeat his fantasies, he uses that to confirm there's something to the stories. The GA Tech to the Big 10 thing from this morning, for example.

[paulxu]

If your name was "the Dude" you'd probably make stuff up too.

There's a guy at the local health club whose personalized license plate is "TheGuy." Needless to say, he's a very, very strange individual.

Then again, my plate says XU; but down here they all think I'm flipping 'em off...which is OK too.

[DC Muskie]

A rather creative piece of thinking from the Georgetown board:

It's cold here in SoCal but the guys on the bench met again as usual. Allow me to summarize the suggestion. A few pages ago on this thread, someone suggested bundling the Basketball schools and selling the bundle to one of the conferences. Let's give that some thought. Big East football remains as is or not. A new league is formed with Basketball only schools. Ten, twelve schools, Big East members, add X. or Butler, or whatever, but instead of trying to get a network deal we sell the TV rights of the bundle as a whole to one of the major conferences. What would the B1G, for example, pay the new league to have the rights to televise their games in DC, NYC, Philly, Cinci, Memphis, etc.? If you live in NYC and want to watch the old Big East go at each other, you have to subscribe to the B1G network. There can be games bwn the two leagues. The ACC with Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Pitt, Ville, and all will be a great Hoops league, but Indiana, tOSU, Wisc, Sparty, Georgetown, Nova, UConn, X, Butler, won't be far behind. What does the B1G get out of it: increased cable subscribers, exposure of their brand into major markets, opening up areas to B1G sports, and the opportunity to renegotiate a better deal with a major network? I bet we can get more $ in this scenario, than going it alone. In a few years, when the contract runs out, we will have made our own bed. If we provide great enterntainment, our price goes up, if we don't we have only ourselves to blame.
--vagrant

The only problem with this theory is...the BIG 10 already has all of the markets from the new bb only schools.
Right?

[xudash]

The only problem with this theory is...the BIG 10 already has all of the markets from the new bb only schools.
Right?

Already have the markets, yes.

Would this represent additional content, absolutely.

Would the B1G want such content, I have no idea.

[Masterofreality]

The only problem with this theory is...the BIG 10 already has all of the markets from the new bb only schools.
Right?

Sounds like another Hoya arrogant post that they would be so damn valuable in this post re-alignment world.

Yeah. I think that New York (Rutgers) DC (Maryland) Cincy (Ohio State) are covered. Philly? Uh, whatever. Memphis? Who the F cares about that riverrat infested, Gawdforesaken place?

[XUglow]

Not sure what's relevant about that (especially since Kent is probably going to lose to NIU despite the fact that I prefer going to the Sugar over going to the Orange).

Kentucky would be a perfect fit for the Big East, though they'd struggle in football.

UK would be a good fit for the ACC. Basketball heavy with lower football requirements.

[GoMuskies]

UK would be a good fit for the ACC. Basketball heavy with lower football requirements.

Like I said, the Big East (which is what the ACC is obviously becoming). But the ACC already has the Kentucky market. :smile:

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Some Villanova fan created a thread, said Xavier is going to the Big East, and then listed absolutely no sources.

http://villanova.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1159&tid=160411943&mid=160411943&sid=1000&style=2

The rumor mills are officially out of control

[GoMuskies]

Some Villanova fan created a thread, said Xavier is going to the Big East, and then listed absolutely no sources.

http://villanova.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1159&tid=160411943&mid=160411943&sid=1000&style=2

The rumor mills are officially out of control

I'm basically repulsed by the idea of joining the Big East at this point anyway. Conference games against USF, Houston, SMU, Central Florida and Tulane?!? Yippee.

[xudash]

Some Villanova fan created a thread, said Xavier is going to the Big East, and then listed absolutely no sources.

http://villanova.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1159&tid=160411943&mid=160411943&sid=1000&style=2

The rumor mills are officially out of control

Those guys are funny in that they love to sometimes make rumors look official, then they discuss them for a while.

They truly love the idea of teaming up with Xavier. For that matter, any Georgetown fan who has become convinced that a hoops-centric approach is the way to go feels the same way.

Overall, and it's no surprise, Xavier is at the top of virtually anyone's list as the first addition to the BE Hoops 7.

[boozehound]

You have to think something is going to give at some point with the Big East hoops schools. The only way for schools with good basketball and no football to truly control their own destiny would be to form a conference where basketball was king. Anything else and they are just along for the ride while the football schools determine their fate. How about the increased travel costs across all sports for schools like Nova and Georgetown because the BE adds schools like SMU and Houston. They can't be happy about that.

That is one positive for Xavier about being in the A-10 right now. It is clearly a basketball league which lends some stability to the conference. We could definitely do worse than where we are, but I would love to see the best of the A-10 join forces with programs like Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, and even Seton Hall and Providence who are better than the lower tier A-10 teams we currently have like LaSalle and Fordham.

[BMoreX]

In actual realignment news, College of Charleston will join the CAA.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

[JTG]

Those guys are funny in that they love to sometimes make rumors look official, then they discuss them for a while.

They truly love the idea of teaming up with Xavier. For that matter, any Georgetown fan who has become convinced that a hoops-centric approach is the way to go feels the same way.

Overall, and it's no surprise, Xavier is at the top of virtually anyone's list as the first addition to the BE Hoops 7.

Except former UCONN coach Calhoun, who suggested "Ugh" Dayton to be added to the Big East bball only schools.

[GoMuskies]

http://blogs.ajc.com/georgia-t...big-ten-rumors/




UPDATED: Tech denies Big Ten rumors
3:20 pm November 30, 2012, by Ken Sugiura

Amidst rumors and reports that Georgia Tech has applied and been approved for membership into the Big Ten, the school denied their veracity.

“There is no truth to the rumors,” Institute spokesman Matt Nagel said in an e-mail Friday afternoon.

In his conversations with school president G.P. “Bud” Peterson, acting athletic director Paul Griffin said that Peterson “has told me there’s been no communication (with the Big Ten), nor does he expect any.”

Griffin spoke from Charlotte, N.C., where Tech will play Florida State for the ACC football championship Saturday. Griffin said in addition he was not aware of any communications between Tech leadership and the Big Ten or any other conference.

Wednesday, on a teleconference with news media following the ACC accepting Louisville as a member, commissioner John Swofford said that the nature of conversations he had had with Peterson in the past 10 days regarding Tech’s future “has been emphatic in terms of their commitment to the ACC and Georgia Tech’s future.”

[paulxu]

If ND has to play 5 ACC schools per year, they could be playing:
Wake
Duke
Louisville
BC
Syracuse

Nice schedule.

[LA Muskie]

If ND has to play 5 ACC schools per year, they could be playing:
Wake
Duke
Louisville
BC
Syracuse

Nice schedule.
Not if it wants a chance at the Final 4.

[GoMuskies]

Not if it wants a chance at the Final 4.

Why not? They played Wake and BC this year. They played Pitt, who is worse than Syracuse. They played BYU who is, if not worse, much lower rated than Louisville. And they played Purdue and Navy, both likely worse than Duke. And here they are at BCS #1.

[Muskie1000]

I think the NCAA just needs to say - the hell with all these conferences. We are disbanding with all of them and everyone has 1 month to create new ones. Couldn't be more of a mess than it is now. Seriously, the next few years are going to be such a nightmare trying to remember who is with what conference. Sounds like a fun project that someone on this board might want to do. Maybe a seperate thread for listing the conferences and who actually belongs to who and when they will move.

[paulxu]

I have absolutely no idea where all this is going. But if you think that the big boys have already agreed on a 4 team playoff for the national championship, then it seems one of two scenarios is likely:

1 - There are more than 4 conferences considered, which means you have to have some sort of computerized system, or selection process made up of neutral (?) people to select the 4 participants

2 - There are really no more than 64 football teams with a shot at the national championship...in which case it makes sense to organize into 4 conferences, have a monster conference game which pits 2 divisions in each conference for their own championship...and take the 4 winners on to the playoffs/NC

The latter makes so much sense, that even if one of the conferences had more than 16 members (18 or 20) and another had less (12 or 14), you would have to think that's where this is all going. Plus all the $ generated with playoffs at both levels. And eventually even ND will have to join one of them.

Which means the ACC as a major football conference will eventually die, just like the BE. And instead of 120 D1 programs, they'll be 64-68 or so. The CUSA and others might organize something above the current 2nd tier.

[GoMuskies]

I can't imagine the SEC ever agreeing to your setup #2 paul. They have to think they're going to have more than one of the four best teams pretty often. Just look at this year and think about all the SEC teams that would get jumped by friggin Nebraska or Wisconsin (and to a lesser extent Oregon and maybe Oklahoma if K-State loses). Don't see it.

[DC Muskie]

Already have the markets, yes.

Would this represent additional content, absolutely.

Would the B1G want such content, I have no idea.

I would have to guess that a conference network would not add content of another conference, and another conference wouldn't dilute their brand.

[paulxu]

I can't imagine the SEC ever agreeing to your setup #2 paul. They have to think they're going to have more than one of the four best teams pretty often. Just look at this year and think about all the SEC teams that would get jumped by friggin Nebraska or Wisconsin (and to a lesser extent Oregon and maybe Oklahoma if K-State loses). Don't see it.

On the surface I would agree, but things go in cycles. The SEC knows that. They'd hate to have a year when they had no one in the 4 at all.
I see the other 3 conferences saying "this is how it is" and going from there.

[LA Muskie]

Why not? They played Wake and BC this year. They played Pitt, who is worse than Syracuse. They played BYU who is, if not worse, much lower rated than Louisville. And they played Purdue and Navy, both likely worse than Duke. And here they are at BCS #1.
That's what I get for talking out of turn -- I know even less about college football than I thought just a few hours ago. My bad.

[xudash]

I have absolutely no idea where all this is going. But if you think that the big boys have already agreed on a 4 team playoff for the national championship, then it seems one of two scenarios is likely:

1 - There are more than 4 conferences considered, which means you have to have some sort of computerized system, or selection process made up of neutral (?) people to select the 4 participants

2 - There are really no more than 64 football teams with a shot at the national championship...in which case it makes sense to organize into 4 conferences, have a monster conference game which pits 2 divisions in each conference for their own championship...and take the 4 winners on to the playoffs/NC

The latter makes so much sense, that even if one of the conferences had more than 16 members (18 or 20) and another had less (12 or 14), you would have to think that's where this is all going. Plus all the $ generated with playoffs at both levels. And eventually even ND will have to join one of them.

Which means the ACC as a major football conference will eventually die, just like the BE. And instead of 120 D1 programs, they'll be 64-68 or so. The CUSA and others might organize something above the current 2nd tier.

Exactly how I see it.

Also:

1. Screw what the SEC thinks now, because things do go in cycles. Win in the regular season and advance; and

2. Recall the low number of programs that actually generate positive cash flow. It is more than likely that 120+ programs at this level is unsustainable.