Conference carousel to start spinning again?

[danaandvictory]

St. Mary's really has very little history of competing at a high level. As long as the staff with the Aussie connections is in place it'll be fine, but who knows after that. I'd be very surprised if they ever were able to build a new facility.

That's a good point. Gonzaga has sustained their success long enough that they've got nice facilities and a tight relationship with Nike. SMC does not. BYU is probably the team from that league best equipped in the future given that they play in effectively an NBA building and have a huge, ingrained, global fanbase.

[More Cowbell]

huge, ingrained, global fanbase.

Dumb, Dumb, Dumb?

[DC Muskie]

Also just forget about divisions. Divisions in basketball are a bad idea and the trend over the past five years are to get away from them.

[LA Muskie]

Also just forget about divisions. Divisions in basketball are a bad idea and the trend over the past five years are to get away from them.

I'm not sure trends matter much anymore. We're in a new paradigm. For a basketball-centric conference, it might be the best way to maximize the media money and ensure relevance in the NCAA picture.

[MHettel]

Also just forget about divisions. Divisions in basketball are a bad idea and the trend over the past five years are to get away from them.

Why are they a bad idea?

[DC Muskie]

Why are they a bad idea?

Unbalanced schedules hurt RPI and kill conference tournaments. The only leagues that have divisions are ones like Southland and Southern.

[Masterofreality]

I believe I read that the Orange Bowl is contractually bound to the ACC for 15 years. I know, contracts are made to be broken and all that, but if the ACC can keep some of its core (say it becomes Louisville, Cincinnati, BC, South Florida, Wake, Duke, Miami, NC State, Pitt and Syracuse), they may be able to hold onto that Orang Bowl bid (for dear life).



Dismiss Dayton all you want for whatever reasons. I'd be shocked if we didn't end up as a pair.

Gtown
SJU
Nova
SHU
Providence
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier
Dayton
Richmond

10 league up and down the east coast and Marquette, DePaul as the out-liners. Xavier fits in perfectly.

Temple, Memphis.......wherefore art thou?

[xudash]

Ryan Koslen ‏@Koz_UC
Reports of a 3 p.m. press conference or any announcement are both false and inaccurate.

There's our answer to the credibility of that one guy from Knoxville Tennessee

Yep.

The ACC hasn't even figured out the UConn v. UL thing yet, but somehow UC was supposed to sneak into the conversation all of a sudden as part of a package deal.

When you think too highly of your program, like fans of UC and UD do, you're likely to get hurt when your straw rumors get spinned into dust.

[DC Muskie]

I'm not sure trends matter much anymore. We're in a new paradigm. For a basketball-centric conference, it might be the best way to maximize the media money and ensure relevance in the NCAA picture.

Divisions have nothing to do with media money. The pod system works much better to try and maximize your RPI across the board. That idea isn't going to change and as we see these bigger conferences, the new BE or the A10 will be left behind if they went the division route.

My bet is that you will see a shift to go back to more of a round robin format.

[MHettel]

I love reading stuff like this, whenever conference realignment comes up.

Dayton is too small of a market? And Omaha is decent?

Did you know that Dayton is actually the 64th largest market in the country? Probably not would be my guess. Omaha? 76. It's slightly larger than Paducah - Cape Girardeau - Harrisburg market. You must be one of these people who looks at the electoral college and sees Oklahoma and Kansas covered in red and think that since there is a whole lot of space that must mean there are more people.

Xavier is not going to put itself in a position where more of their games will be played in the Midwest. Anybody noticing that one of the biggest conferences is moving towards the east? All of those people in Ohio are moving to North and South Carolina. They are moving to Virginia, and up and down the east coast. Xavier hates the fact we see less games on the east coast already. They aren't going to want to sign on to fewer.

.

Ok, well lets see. Did YOU know that TV markets overlap? And did YOU know that Daytons market includes the enormous cities of Springfield, and Richmond and Piqua? So basically the ONLY thing attractive about the Dayton market is Dayton itself.

AND, Dayton is actually ALSO included in the Cincinnati market. So basically, if you have Cincy you have Dayton, and if you then get Dayton your net additions are Springfield, Piqua and Richmond. What a bonanza! (except for the fact that Springfield is ALSO in the Columbus market, so I'm guessing you're competing with OSU fans there....) (oh wait, Richmond is actually in Indiana, so my guess is that the rural Indiana kids JUST might be more inclined to root for the Hoosiers than the Flyers....)

Bottom line is simple. A new TV market aint crap unless in brings in NEW viewers that are interested in the product.

With that said, nobody will confuse Omaha with New York, but it's a fairly captive market with limited competition when it comes to College Hoops. A hoops fan can watch Nebraska or Creighton and not much else. Oh, and the surrounding areas, while not as dense as downtown Manhattan, are mostly UNDERSERVED when it comes to college basketball options. So while Daytons market pushes people AWAY from interest in UD, the Omaha markets actually might suck people INTO interest for Creighton (and whoever they are playing).

Also I LOVE the idea that we would never consider this option because were moving towards the east, and that is that! Yeah, I can see it now. The entire landscape of college athletics is shifting and we've got an attractive option but we're "not interested" because a coupel of games might need to get played West of the Mississippi. We'd be much better off sticking in the A10 with Fordham and Rhode Island becasue they are in the East.

Who knows what will happen, but the idea that Dayton is attractive doesnt hold much water...

[MHettel]

I dont understand.

How does it hurt RPI? Because all opponents dont get to play the same teams the same number of times? So while it hurst some, wouldn't it benefit others? So the net result is neutral. Afterall, once conference play begins the only thing that matters is the collective SOS and winning percentage of the member teams in the non-con schedule. It doesn't matter who plays who. Any combination of the same number of games played within a conference schedule will include the EXACT same RPI impact collectively as any other combination.

And I'd like a little more color on the "kill conference tournaments." I'm not making the connection. In what way does it kill them? Have they been cancelled? Are the players wearing blindfolds? Maybe they use a bowling ball instead of a basketball? I'm running out of ideas on how the design of a conference has any impact.

If you want to make a statement that actully CAN be supported with facts, you should start with the idea of playing LESS conference games. Play 16 games at most. Ideally, this is accomplished with a 9 team league where you play 8 opponents home and home. Keeps it simple, keeps it clean. But, in order for this to work, teams need to make sure they are smart at scheduling the extra 2 non-con games they have and collectively win above 50% of them. Gotta schedule wins out of conference. Doesnt even matter who you play, just win. This is what the BE figured out 10 years ago, and it served them well for a while....

[LA Muskie]

Divisions have nothing to do with media money. The pod system works much better to try and maximize your RPI across the board. That idea isn't going to change and as we see these bigger conferences, the new BE or the A10 will be left behind if they went the division route.

My bet is that you will see a shift to go back to more of a round robin format.
I agree that divisions merely for divisions' sake (often because there are too many schools in the conference) don't work. Divisions to account for geographical diversity, which serve the practical purpose of cutting travel costs and fostering natural rivals, can work. What we're talking about is the former. It might be a single conference with two divisions. Or perhaps it is more akin to the previously proposed MWC/Conference USA "affiliation" where 2 separate conferences remain but are marketed jointly and take advantage of cross-conference scheduling opportunities. Frankly, the latter may be the more realistic option. But I still wouldn't be surprised to see an attempt to build a basketball super-conference.

[DC Muskie]

Ok, well lets see. Did YOU know that TV markets overlap? And did YOU know that Daytons market includes the enormous cities of Springfield, and Richmond and Piqua? So basically the ONLY thing attractive about the Dayton market is Dayton itself.

AND, Dayton is actually ALSO included in the Cincinnati market. So basically, if you have Cincy you have Dayton, and if you then get Dayton your net additions are Springfield, Piqua and Richmond. What a bonanza! (except for the fact that Springfield is ALSO in the Columbus market, so I'm guessing you're competing with OSU fans there....) (oh wait, Richmond is actually in Indiana, so my guess is that the rural Indiana kids JUST might be more inclined to root for the Hoosiers than the Flyers....)

Bottom line is simple. A new TV market aint crap unless in brings in NEW viewers that are interested in the product.

With that said, nobody will confuse Omaha with New York, but it's a fairly captive market with limited competition when it comes to College Hoops. A hoops fan can watch Nebraska or Creighton and not much else. Oh, and the surrounding areas, while not as dense as downtown Manhattan, are mostly UNDERSERVED when it comes to college basketball options. So while Daytons market pushes people AWAY from interest in UD, the Omaha markets actually might suck people INTO interest for Creighton (and whoever they are playing).

Also I LOVE the idea that we would never consider this option because were moving towards the east, and that is that! Yeah, I can see it now. The entire landscape of college athletics is shifting and we've got an attractive option but we're "not interested" because a coupel of games might need to get played West of the Mississippi. We'd be much better off sticking in the A10 with Fordham and Rhode Island becasue they are in the East.

Who knows what will happen, but the idea that Dayton is attractive doesnt hold much water...

You actually made two completely different arguments when promoting Creighton over Dayton. Media markets was one, commitment to basketball was the other.

There is no argument that Dayton is committed to their basketball program, which is why I didn't go there. Even you should be able to see that with 13,000 hill jacks sitting in the seats and their other facilities Dayton is pretty attractive. You might not agree, but that's the reality.

I'm not sure where you get your media market information or how Springfield Ohio is in the Columbus district, but it helps if conference lands a tv deal that there will be people who will pick up the phone and call their cable company and tell them to put on the new BE basketball programs. ESPN and CBS both televise the Dayton/Xavier game, because well...people watch it.

I know that you think moving to the east coast and east coast dominated league is less appealing than adding a team in the middle of Nebraska because they have nothing else to do. But then again you also argued once that Xavier should look into being independent. I guess we could have scheduled most of our games west of the Mississippi and have no one watch them, but I'm thinking the people in charge at the school would think that wouldn't be a good idea.

Look, I hate Dayton. But they bring a lot to the table. No matter how you want to argue it or think it otherwise, they are going to be right there. If for some reason they are left out, I ain't gonna cry.

[bleedXblue]

I just dont see X traveling all over the country to play in all sports for the sake of pocketing a few extra million.

I think that there are plenty of good basketball only schools east of Neb-MO to attract a really nice TV deal thats a hell of a lot better than what X gets from the A-10.

Creighton
St Louis
DePaul
Butler
XU
Temple (b/c no one will want them anymore)
Vilanova
GTown
VCU/Richmond (I like VCU and Shaka)
Marquette
UD (regrettably)

[GoMuskies]

Wichita State really should be in the conversation here. They've been to the NCAA Tournament twice in the last 30 years, have a Final Four from two generations ago and have a lot of fans. They totally have staying power when Marshall leaves.

[Masterofreality]

Wichita State really should be in the conversation here. They've been to the NCAA Tournament twice in the last 30 years, have a Final Four from two generations ago and have a lot of fans. They totally have staying power when Marshall leaves.

So stated from a guy with selfish motives....who lives in......wait for it....

Wichita :laugh:

[LA Muskie]

The Dayton thing amuses me. I get why we -- as fans -- would love to leave them behind. It's yet another way to treat them like our red headed step-brother. On the other hand, the national media's adoration for Dayton is no less bemusing. It's as if sports writers are trapped in the 1960's (when Dayton basketball was last relevant). To this day, they get far more unearned respect from the pollsters than any other non-BCS school.

That said, for whatever reason the people who make these decisions seem to think Dayton remains relevant in the college basketball landscape. There is a reason the First 4 games are played there (and it's not just to avoid the conflict of having a host team playing there...). Dayton's inclusion in a new private school, basketball-centric conference is a near certainty. So we might as well get used to that fact, and stop whining that they don't deserve to be there. Neither will Providence, but they'll be there too.

[DC Muskie]

I dont understand.

How does it hurt RPI? Because all opponents dont get to play the same teams the same number of times? So while it hurst some, wouldn't it benefit others? So the net result is neutral. Afterall, once conference play begins the only thing that matters is the collective SOS and winning percentage of the member teams in the non-con schedule. It doesn't matter who plays who. Any combination of the same number of games played within a conference schedule will include the EXACT same RPI impact collectively as any other combination.

And I'd like a little more color on the "kill conference tournaments." I'm not making the connection. In what way does it kill them? Have they been cancelled? Are the players wearing blindfolds? Maybe they use a bowling ball instead of a basketball? I'm running out of ideas on how the design of a conference has any impact.

If you want to make a statement that actully CAN be supported with facts, you should start with the idea of playing LESS conference games. Play 16 games at most. Ideally, this is accomplished with a 9 team league where you play 8 opponents home and home. Keeps it simple, keeps it clean. But, in order for this to work, teams need to make sure they are smart at scheduling the extra 2 non-con games they have and collectively win above 50% of them. Gotta schedule wins out of conference. Doesnt even matter who you play, just win. This is what the BE figured out 10 years ago, and it served them well for a while....

Ummm...

what facts do you want? When you have divisions, like in the SEC, the top four teams received byes in their tournaments. Some of those teams shouldn't have received byes because at the end of the day they were terrible. The winner of the SEC West didn't make the tournament, and that hurts the league. It makes the conference tournament less appealing because it weighs teams in an uneven manner.

It's really not that hard of concept to understand. Want to know why? because they got rid of it. Because what works for football, doesn't work for basketball.

You know the BE got rid of divisions too right? Did you miss that important point? Which is why they went to the pod system, which helps maximize your chances, top to bottom of teams getting into the tournament. Gosh, hey look, even the A10 is doing that!

There is no doubt that you know more than Billy Donovan, or John Calipari when it comes to the benefits and subtractions of divisions. You think a league where Xavier plays Creighton, SLU and Butler 14 times and St Joe's once is good for league.

Let me put it this way....would you rather have the top four teams get byes into your conference tournament, or would you rather have some arbitrary set up where some shit team gets a bye based on the location of the school? If you are unable to come to the correct conclusion on this, please step away from this discussion.

[SkyWalker]

Unbalanced schedules hurt RPI and kill conference tournaments. The only leagues that have divisions are ones like Southland and Southern.

I absolutely agree with DC.

[DC Muskie]

I agree that divisions merely for divisions' sake (often because there are too many schools in the conference) don't work. Divisions to account for geographical diversity, which serve the practical purpose of cutting travel costs and fostering natural rivals, can work. What we're talking about is the former. It might be a single conference with two divisions. Or perhaps it is more akin to the previously proposed MWC/Conference USA "affiliation" where 2 separate conferences remain but are marketed jointly and take advantage of cross-conference scheduling opportunities. Frankly, the latter may be the more realistic option. But I still wouldn't be surprised to see an attempt to build a basketball super-conference.

They solve that with the pod system. Divisions are at the end of the day something that helps with football.

Look at the Big Ten right now, they are not simply drawing a line from left to right on what schools fall into what geographical place. Schools are able to travel and cover the costs. Same thing for programs like us. Majerus wanted SLU out because of "travel" but did you notice his bosses didn't agree? You are not going to increase and build a great program by playing in your own back yard.

[LA Muskie]

I just dont see X traveling all over the country to play in all sports for the sake of pocketing a few extra million.

I think that there are plenty of good basketball only schools east of Neb-MO to attract a really nice TV deal thats a hell of a lot better than what X gets from the A-10.

Creighton
St Louis
DePaul
Butler
XU
Temple (b/c no one will want them anymore)
Vilanova
GTown
VCU/Richmond (I like VCU and Shaka)
Marquette
UD (regrettably)
XU Basketball traveling isn't a problem. They fly charter for nearly all their games. It's all the other sports that's the problem, which necessitates divisions and/or a structured "affiliation" with another conference.

But one thing I'm nearly certain of is that Georgetown and 'Nova come in a package that includes St. John's, Providence, and Seton Hall (as well as Marquette and DePaul). I am also confident that the university would prefer to move east and join those schools, than to expand to the mid-west. If it's a matter of choosing between the east and midwest, I don't think there's any choice there -- the east will win hands-down. The only question in my mind is whether they choose to go with a larger conference that includes the A-10 and MVC midwesterners.

I also don't see any FBS football schools in this league, so you can exclude Temple. They will either return to the MAC as an all-sports member or team up with the Big East cast-offs.

[MHettel]

You actually made two completely different arguments when promoting Creighton over Dayton. Media markets was one, commitment to basketball was the other.

.

Actually, no. I didnt do that. I threw out Dayton becasue of market size. I then included Creighton and listed some reasons why. At no point did I say or imply that Creighton was superior to Dayton in commitment. I commended them for their commitment and noted it as an attraction. Not sure what you read..

[LA Muskie]

They solve that with the pod system. Divisions are at the end of the day something that helps with football.

Look at the Big Ten right now, they are not simply drawing a line from left to right on what schools fall into what geographical place. Schools are able to travel and cover the costs. Same thing for programs like us. Majerus wanted SLU out because of "travel" but did you notice his bosses didn't agree? You are not going to increase and build a great program by playing in your own back yard.
I should clarify. I don't care how they handle basketball -- the costs of travel aren't an issue there. Pods are fine. The divisions were primarily for the benefit of non-revenue sports, to keep costs down.

[Masterofreality]

Actually when it comes to between DC and Hett on the dump vs Creighton deal, this may come down to best perceived market for TV coverage. With XU, you have Southern Ohio covered and the Cryers may not add anything. With Creighton, you pick up the entire Omaha/Council Bluffs metro area.

Creighton is committed, all right. They sell out over 10,000 every game folks.

[DC Muskie]

Actually, no. I didnt do that. I threw out Dayton becasue of market size. I then included Creighton and listed some reasons why. At no point did I say or imply that Creighton was superior to Dayton in commitment. I commended them for their commitment and noted it as an attraction. Not sure what you read..

You were incorrect on market size, and then said this:

I'd go with St. Louis and Creighton. Like minded schools, solid facilities and commitment, and decent markets all things considered.

So when we discount market size, and then arbitrarily promote commitment to basketball, how is that not an argument for Creighton over Dayton? You completely dismiss something that is factually incorrect while on the other hand dismissing Dayton's commitment as an asset.

[DC Muskie]

I should clarify. I don't care how they handle basketball -- the costs of travel aren't an issue there. Pods are fine. The divisions were primarily for the benefit of non-revenue sports, to keep costs down.

You can do divisions for other sports. Nothing is preventing that from happening....look at the difference between basketball and football.

[DC Muskie]

Actually when it comes to between DC and Hett on the dump vs Creighton deal, this may come down to best perceived market for TV coverage. With XU, you have Southern Ohio covered and the Cryers may not add anything. With Creighton, you pick up the entire Omaha/Council Bluffs metro area.

Creighton is committed, all right. They sell out over 10,000 every game folks.

Then why do ESPN and CBS televise the game? Why does the A-10 promote the rivalry if nothing new is added?

[LA Muskie]

Actually when it comes to between DC and Hett on the dump vs Creighton deal, this may come down to best perceived market for TV coverage. With XU, you have Southern Ohio covered and the Cryers may not add anything. With Creighton, you pick up the entire Omaha/Council Bluffs metro area.

Creighton is committed, all right. They sell out over 10,000 every game folks.
I think this is ultimately an interesting debate (and a welcome opportunity to crap on Dayton some more), but it's probably irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. If the conference is going to be east coast centric, Creighton will be on the sidelines. If they contemplate a broader geographic scope with a major midwest presence (i.e., in addition to DePaul and Marquette), SLU and Creighton would have to be part of the solution.

[LA Muskie]

You can do divisions for other sports. Nothing is preventing that from happening....look at the difference between basketball and football.

I never said otherwise. I think we are generally in agreement.

[DC Muskie]

XU Basketball traveling isn't a problem. They fly charter for nearly all their games. It's all the other sports that's the problem, which necessitates divisions and/or a structured "affiliation" with another conference.

But one thing I'm nearly certain of is that Georgetown and 'Nova come in a package that includes St. John's, Providence, and Seton Hall (as well as Marquette and DePaul). I am also confident that the university would prefer to move east and join those schools, than to expand to the mid-west. If it's a matter of choosing between the east and midwest, I don't think there's any choice there -- the east will win hands-down. The only question in my mind is whether they choose to go with a larger conference that includes the A-10 and MVC midwesterners.

I also don't see any FBS football schools in this league, so you can exclude Temple. They will either return to the MAC as an all-sports member or team up with the Big East cast-offs.

Temple is gone, never to return in my opinion.

I just don't see how the BE bb schools look at this and say, "let's get back into a 14 all basketball league." Marquette certainly isn't looking for another Great Midwest league. There is a reason why it failed.

[DC Muskie]

I think this is ultimately an interesting debate (and a welcome opportunity to crap on Dayton some more), but it's probably irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. If the conference is going to be east coast centric, Creighton will be on the sidelines. If they contemplate a broader geographic scope with a major midwest presence (i.e., in addition to DePaul and Marquette), SLU and Creighton would have to be part of the solution.

Does Creighton charter planes? What is the television deal that the MVC have? Their alumni are certainly not going to be happy to travel to Brooklyn for the conference tournament rather than have it in St. Louis. I have a friend whose family makes that trip annually and I have to believe there are more like minded people.

[MHettel]

Ummm...

what facts do you want? When you have divisions, like in the SEC, the top four teams received byes in their tournaments. Some of those teams shouldn't have received byes because at the end of the day they were terrible. The winner of the SEC West didn't make the tournament, and that hurts the league. It makes the conference tournament less appealing because it weighs teams in an uneven manner.

It's really not that hard of concept to understand. Want to know why? because they got rid of it. Because what works for football, doesn't work for basketball.

You know the BE got rid of divisions too right? Did you miss that important point? Which is why they went to the pod system, which helps maximize your chances, top to bottom of teams getting into the tournament. Gosh, hey look, even the A10 is doing that!

There is no doubt that you know more than Billy Donovan, or John Calipari when it comes to the benefits and subtractions of divisions. You think a league where Xavier plays Creighton, SLU and Butler 14 times and St Joe's once is good for league.

Let me put it this way....would you rather have the top four teams get byes into your conference tournament, or would you rather have some arbitrary set up where some shit team gets a bye based on the location of the school? If you are unable to come to the correct conclusion on this, please step away from this discussion.

Stretching it out like that almost gives it some substance, ya know.

I guess now I just want to better understand exactly what you mean by the "top four teams." Is this something that everyone just understands. The top 4 teams are the top 4 in spite of the order that they finished in the league? And, if we REALLY want to get it right then shouldnt we consider the non-con results and SOS as well when making this definitive determination of exactly who the "top four teams" are?

If you really think critially about it, by defintion the top 4 teams should simply win their first round game if they didnt earn a bye, right? And also, how could a "shit team" earn a bye unless the remaining 5 or 6 teams in their division were simply shittier? And at that point, your problems might be a little more serious than whether you have divisions or not.

And by the way, did MLB, NFL, NBA and the NHL all screw this up? Why dont they just have one giant league where they play everyone an equal amount of times and then just have a league tournament?

[GoMuskies]

So stated from a guy with selfish motives....who lives in......wait for it....

Wichita :laugh:

We've been trapped in a league with the Duquesnes of the world for far too long. It's time to get a program that matters. One that defended Dayton's NIT title. One that gave us Austin Carr. One that plays in an arena named for one of the richest men in the world. One that is in one of the fastest growing media markets in Kansas. Opportunities to grab programs like this don't come around that often.

They used to be really good at baseball, too!

[MHettel]

I think this is ultimately an interesting debate (and a welcome opportunity to crap on Dayton some more), but it's probably irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. If the conference is going to be east coast centric, Creighton will be on the sidelines. If they contemplate a broader geographic scope with a major midwest presence (i.e., in addition to DePaul and Marquette), SLU and Creighton would have to be part of the solution.

Agreed, but you have the cart before the horse. They wont just make a decison on the conference being east coast or not. They will CONSIDER these exact things in helping make that decision. Creighton is appealing, and also helps put a net around the midwest...

If we do have the expected conference shakeup at our level, then there are 4 possible outcomes concerning UD and Creighton. Both, neither, one, or the other. I could see both schools (50%) or one (25%) or the other (25%). I dont see a scenario where neither is included...

[LA Muskie]

Temple is gone, never to return in my opinion.

I just don't see how the BE bb schools look at this and say, "let's get back into a 14 all basketball league." Marquette certainly isn't looking for another Great Midwest league. There is a reason why it failed.

If that's the case, then we're talking about the Big East basketball schools adding 2-3 new members. My understanding is that we are Option #1 if we want in (in whatever form the league may take). So the question becomes -- are we better off there? Regardless of who the other 1-2 schools may be, I can't see that not being better for us. In that event, I think it would be us and Dayton for sure. Big question marks after that? VCU would be the biggest east coast name (at least presently), but they would be the only state school in the conference. Same problem for Charlotte. Butler would be expanding in the wrong direction, and has facilities issues. St. Louis? Too far west. Richmond may be the only other viable option out of the A-10...

[LA Muskie]

Agreed, but you have the cart before the horse. They wont just make a decison on the conference being east coast or not. They will CONSIDER these exact things in helping make that decision. Creighton is appealing, and also helps put a net around the midwest...

If we do have the expected conference shakeup at our level, then there are 4 possible outcomes concerning UD and Creighton. Both, neither, one, or the other. I could see both schools (50%) or one (25%) or the other (25%). I dont see a scenario where neither is included...

Let's put it this way, I don't see a basketball conference pushing westward to add Creighton. They are a nice, tasty side dish. But not a main course. I do, however, agree that one or both of UD and Creighton will step up a level in the next stage of realignment. I actually think Dayton is a near certainty, though, so in my mind it's really whether Creighton also gets the call.

[DC Muskie]

Stretching it out like that almost gives it some substance, ya know.

I guess now I just want to better understand exactly what you mean by the "top four teams." Is this something that everyone just understands. The top 4 teams are the top 4 in spite of the order that they finished in the league? And, if we REALLY want to get it right then shouldnt we consider the non-con results and SOS as well when making this definitive determination of exactly who the "top four teams" are?

If you really think critially about it, by defintion the top 4 teams should simply win their first round game if they didnt earn a bye, right? And also, how could a "shit team" earn a bye unless the remaining 5 or 6 teams in their division were simply shittier? And at that point, your problems might be a little more serious than whether you have divisions or not.

Divisions are not created equal. At one point in the east you had Florida, Kentucky, Tennessee and Vandy. In the west you had Miss St and Alabama. I think it was Miss Ste who won the west, but at the end of the day their RPI was crap and they didn't get in. They did however get a bye. So while Vandy, let's say, is a better team, with a better RPI doesn't get a bye, it has to play another game in which they could lose, while Miss State skips to the next round. How is that fair? That's what the coaches of the SEC wanted to know.

Look at the potential new BE. Do you think Gtown will be happy if they had divisions and got stuck playing two extra games, simply because SMU won the west by beating those crap teams? No way. That's why divisions are basically extinct. Rather then having totally arbitray set ups to determine unbalance schedules you have pods which again, allows top to bottom evening out of the RPI.

That's basically the argument Billy Donovan made about four years ago. You notice that the ACC never went to divisions in basketball when it expanded because it understood how messed up that system is.


And by the way, did MLB, NFL, NBA and the NHL all screw this up? Why dont they just have one giant league where they play everyone an equal amount of times and then just have a league tournament?

Is this a serious question? It can't be right?

I guess if I had to answer this without laughing my ass off, is when the professional sports teams expand into hundreds of franchises and use computer systems to determine who should play in the postseason, you might see it move to less divisions.

I really hope that question was a joke.

[LA Muskie]

Does Creighton charter planes? What is the television deal that the MVC have? Their alumni are certainly not going to be happy to travel to Brooklyn for the conference tournament rather than have it in St. Louis. I have a friend whose family makes that trip annually and I have to believe there are more like minded people.
Is your point that Creighton fans have no interest in joining the likes of Georgetown and Villanova, and St. John's? That they prefer the friendly confines of the MVC, watching the games on public access TV when they can't make the drive out to Evansville, Terra Haute, Des Moines or Peoria? If so, then I have nothing to add. They have self-selected.

[DC Muskie]

If that's the case, then we're talking about the Big East basketball schools adding 2-3 new members. My understanding is that we are Option #1 if we want in (in whatever form the league may take). So the question becomes -- are we better off there? Regardless of who the other 1-2 schools may be, I can't see that not being better for us. In that event, I think it would be us and Dayton for sure. Big question marks after that? VCU would be the biggest east coast name (at least presently), but they would be the only state school in the conference. Same problem for Charlotte. Butler would be expanding in the wrong direction, and has facilities issues. St. Louis? Too far west. Richmond may be the only other viable option out of the A-10...


We are in a great position simply because we never attached ourself to football. Charlotte is done. They are going to be the next Marshall (sorry Sash!) and be totally forgotten.

To me they way you set this up, like they did when they started this conference is put the best 9 or 10 basketball schools together and build up the brand that way. We would get the benefits of these schools out of conference rivalries which they don't want to give up, like Duke SJU, or GTwon and Syracuse. Scheduling gets better, conference gets better, tv deal gets better. To me I don't see where adding Creighton to get to 12 or 14 really adds anything other than having 14 teams.

None of these schools are going to leave for another conference because of football. The stability of the conference and the quality of play is really going to sell it.

[DC Muskie]

Is your point that Creighton fans have no interest in joining the likes of Georgetown and Villanova, and St. John's? That they prefer the friendly confines of the MVC, watching the games on public access TV when they can't make the drive out to Evansville, Terra Haute, Des Moines or Peoria? If so, then I have nothing to add. They have self-selected.

I know it sounds crazy, but the few people I know are perfectly happy with what they have. They are more concerned that SIU is terrible right now and that game has lost its intensity then how they shake out in the expansion bubble. And really who could blame them?

[DC Muskie]

Let's put it this way, I don't see a basketball conference pushing westward to add Creighton. They are a nice, tasty side dish. But not a main course. I do, however, agree that one or both of UD and Creighton will step up a level in the next stage of realignment. I actually think Dayton is a near certainty, though, so in my mind it's really whether Creighton also gets the call.

Actually when you think about it when it comes to professional sports, less is more. The ACC knows it sold itself for terrible football and destroyed a more balanced basketball league. Bigger basketball leagues simply creates the opportunity to bitch when you only get seven teams into your tournament, instead of nine.

[LA Muskie]

We are in a great position simply because we never attached ourself to football. Charlotte is done. They are going to be the next Marshall (sorry Sash!) and be totally forgotten.

To me they way you set this up, like they did when they started this conference is put the best 9 or 10 basketball schools together and build up the brand that way. We would get the benefits of these schools out of conference rivalries which they don't want to give up, like Duke SJU, or GTwon and Syracuse. Scheduling gets better, conference gets better, tv deal gets better. To me I don't see where adding Creighton to get to 12 or 14 really adds anything other than having 14 teams.

None of these schools are going to leave for another conference because of football. The stability of the conference and the quality of play is really going to sell it.
I tend to agree with all of this. My only question is whether OOC scheduling gets even more difficult when the Big 4+1 grow and (reportedly) increase their basketball conference slates (for their TV deals).

I also wonder whether we made any commitments to the likes of VCU and Butler to shore up the A-10. I have absolutely no inside info on this, and would be somewhat surprised (but not shocked) if we did.

[LA Muskie]

I know it sounds crazy, but the few people I know are perfectly happy with what they have. They are more concerned that SIU is terrible right now and that game has lost its intensity then how they shake out in the expansion bubble. And really who could blame them?
I'm fine with that if they are. That said, I wonder if their President and AD have the same sensibilities.

[Masterofreality]

Then why do ESPN and CBS televise the game? Why does the A-10 promote the rivalry if nothing new is added?

I'm only referring to determining a conference membership to create the biggest value in market coverage, thereby commanding max dollars.

A rivalry game is only one game and you'll get eyes for that one game, but how many more eyes in total will you see when you have more overall market coverage. Just because X and the Cryers aren't in the same league, doesn't mean that there could not be one game a year set up by a TV network that would get those eyes anyway. But if you have SW Ohio already covered, why not add an ancillary market in Omaha?

As opposed to the A-10, the Big East never had more than one team in a market- that is other than covering New York north, south east and west. They spread it out.

Look. I don't know what the chief criteria will be on what the desired structure of the league, but having a presence in as many good size markets as possible without overlap is usually one of the ingredients- rivalry or no rivalry.

With all of this shifting around, traditional rivalries are not being held in high regard it seems.

[DC Muskie]

I'm fine with that if they are. That said, I wonder if their President and AD have the same sensibilities.

I guess it just depends on what their balance sheets say. Xavier has always been pretty unique with our television contract, maybe their own market wouldn't support such a deal, which is why they don't have one.

I'm always amazed Dayton games don't get more air time. How do we have a deal like we do and they don't? How come Creighton doesn't have a deal like that when they have 10,000 come to watch because their is nothing else to do?

[Masterofreality]

We've been trapped in a league with the Duquesnes of the world for far too long. It's time to get a program that matters. One that defended Dayton's NIT title. One that gave us Austin Carr. One that plays in an arena named for one of the richest men in the world. One that is in one of the fastest growing media markets in Kansas. Opportunities to grab programs like this don't come around that often.

They used to be really good at baseball, too!

I kid because I love. My rep button is crushed under the jackbooted heel of oppression.

Except that Austin Carr went to Notre Dame. You must mean Xavier McDaniel. (Great name).

[DC Muskie]

I tend to agree with all of this. My only question is whether OOC scheduling gets even more difficult when the Big 4+1 grow and (reportedly) increase their basketball conference slates (for their TV deals).

I also wonder whether we made any commitments to the likes of VCU and Butler to shore up the A-10. I have absolutely no inside info on this, and would be somewhat surprised (but not shocked) if we did.

Who had the leverage when these deals were made? Did we sign Butler out of weakness because Temple left? Did VCU join us early because they couldn't get into the tournament without a chance to win their conference tournament?

I have to imagine that Butler could see they needed a conference that would help their RPI so when they have seasons like they did last year they can still get an at large. What expectations would we put out there for them if in fact we didn't need to?

I have no idea but interested to find that out.

[Masterofreality]

I'm always amazed Dayton games don't get more air time. How do we have a deal like we do and they don't?

Because we have an incredible AD who maximizes value and they are a bunch of mouth breathing inbreds living in 1957.

[DC Muskie]

I'm only referring to determining a conference membership to create the biggest value in market coverage, thereby commanding max dollars.

A rivalry game is only one game and you'll get eyes for that one game, but how many more eyes in total will you see when you have more overall market coverage. Just because X and the Cryers aren't in the same league, doesn't mean that there could not be one game a year set up by a TV network that would get those eyes anyway. But if you have SW Ohio already covered, why not add an ancillary market in Omaha?

As opposed to the A-10, the Big East never had more than one team in a market- that is other than covering New York north, south east and west. They spread it out.

Look. I don't know what the chief criteria will be on what the desired structure of the league, but having a presence in as many good size markets as possible without overlap is usually one of the ingredients- rivalry or no rivalry.

With all of this shifting around, traditional rivalries are not being held in high regard it seems.

What other programs are their to take in those markets? Temple? Well they caved on that one. They had three teams covering Chicago. Granted that's Chicago.

I think people need to stop thinking about how this deal will go down on the basketball side with the same eyes that drove this football expansion.

I'd be ecstatic if they put together a nine team league. I wouldn't care who that 9th team would be.

[Masterofreality]

What other programs are their to take in those markets? Temple? Well they caved on that one. They had three teams covering Chicago. Granted that's Chicago.

I think people need to stop thinking about how this deal will go down on the basketball side with the same eyes that drove this football expansion.

I'd be ecstatic if they put together a nine team league. I wouldn't care who that 9th team would be.

Temple was a desperate act for football because 'Nova didn't play it. 3 in Chicago? Where? DePaul, OK. ND is in South Bend and is national. Last time I checked, Marquette was in Milwaukee.

DC. You and I aren't arguing. I'm just giving some options as to what they might think about when inviting schools. I have no idea, man.

[DC Muskie]

Temple was a desperate act for football because 'Nova didn't play it. 3 in Chicago? Where? DePaul, OK. ND is in South Bend and is national. Last time I checked, Marquette was in Milwaukee.

DC. You and I aren't arguing. I'm just giving some options as to what they might think about when inviting schools. I have no idea, man.

That's fine I'm not arguing either.

There are a lot of Marquett alumni in Chicago. And ND is practically based in Chicago.

[DC Muskie]

I dont understand.

How does it hurt RPI? Because all opponents dont get to play the same teams the same number of times? So while it hurst some, wouldn't it benefit others? So the net result is neutral. Afterall, once conference play begins the only thing that matters is the collective SOS and winning percentage of the member teams in the non-con schedule. It doesn't matter who plays who. Any combination of the same number of games played within a conference schedule will include the EXACT same RPI impact collectively as any other combination.

And I'd like a little more color on the "kill conference tournaments." I'm not making the connection. In what way does it kill them? Have they been cancelled? Are the players wearing blindfolds? Maybe they use a bowling ball instead of a basketball? I'm running out of ideas on how the design of a conference has any impact.

If you want to make a statement that actully CAN be supported with facts, you should start with the idea of playing LESS conference games. Play 16 games at most. Ideally, this is accomplished with a 9 team league where you play 8 opponents home and home. Keeps it simple, keeps it clean. But, in order for this to work, teams need to make sure they are smart at scheduling the extra 2 non-con games they have and collectively win above 50% of them. Gotta schedule wins out of conference. Doesnt even matter who you play, just win. This is what the BE figured out 10 years ago, and it served them well for a while....

Just to harp on this, but if you ever wanted to be less knowledgeable about college basketball, reread this about a hundred times. I guarantee you will start to think that being an independent in basketball is a good idea.

[MHettel]

You were incorrect on market size, and then said this:

I'd go with St. Louis and Creighton. Like minded schools, solid facilities and commitment, and decent markets all things considered.

So when we discount market size, and then arbitrarily promote commitment to basketball, how is that not an argument for Creighton over Dayton? You completely dismiss something that is factually incorrect while on the other hand dismissing Dayton's commitment as an asset.

I'm not incorrect on market size at all. Incementally, Dayton's TV markets adds almost nothing to a package that already includes Cincy (which already included Dayton). On the other hand Creighton gets you Omaha.

i dont follow any of the other jibberish.

[MHettel]

That's fine I'm not arguing either.

There are a lot of Marquett alumni in Chicago. And ND is practically based in Chicago.

DC does alot of not arguing on this board.

[Moe82]

I kid because I love. My rep button is crushed under the jackbooted heel of oppression.

Except that Austin Carr went to Notre Dame. You must mean Xavier McDaniel. (Great name).

MOR your Tag Line proves that you are pro-WSU

SHOCK THE WORLD!!!

[DC Muskie]

I'm not incorrect on market size at all. Incementally, Dayton's TV markets adds almost nothing to a package that already includes Cincy (which already included Dayton). On the other hand Creighton gets you Omaha.

i dont follow any of the other jibberish.

Arbitron and pretty much every other media source says you are wrong.

I hope you are able to follow that.

[DC Muskie]

DC does alot of not arguing on this board.

MH provides a lot of humor on this board. And he's not even trying!

[danaandvictory]

I'm always amazed Dayton games don't get more air time. How do we have a deal like we do and they don't? How come Creighton doesn't have a deal like that when they have 10,000 come to watch because their is nothing else to do?

Are UD's games still televised on one of the local network affiliates there?

[MHettel]

Just to harp on this, but if you ever wanted to be less knowledgeable about college basketball, reread this about a hundred times. I guarantee you will start to think that being an independent in basketball is a good idea.

So my first point is mathmatically accurate. The division (or lack of) alignment in a conference has no actual bearing on the overall RPI of the member teams. Unbalanced scheduling may benefit some teams and harm others, but collectively it's neutral. No different that the POD system you recommend.

My second point merely highlights that your opinion that divisions "kill conference tournments" has still not been supported with ANY logic other than "because everyone is doing it."

And my third point is also mathmatically sound, and actually IS A SOLUTION to the giant "problem" that you are attempting to manufacture so you can continue to use your manufactured solution.

[DC Muskie]

Are UD's games still televised on one of the local network affiliates there?

I think so. But in this day and age, how can they not have a cable television deal?

[muskienick]

As long as we are coming up with every Conference idea imaginable, here's one no one has mentioned/imagined yet:

Go to an 18-Member Conference with no divisions in Basketball but geographical divisions in the lesser sports.
WEST (9): Butler, Creighton, Dayton, DePaul, Detroit, Marquette, SLU, Wichita, Xavier
EAST (9): Cleveland State, Georgetown, Providence, Richmond, Seton Hall, St. John's, St. Joseph's, VCU, Villanova
Basketball schedule: 17 games (8 home and 9 away against same teams in even years and the reverse in odd years).
Other sports (who gives a rat's rear end?) --- they'll work it out all right.

I know, it would be quite a jump for Detroit and CSU. But they have a lot to offer in many ways: larger metro/media centers, decent-to-good arenas, and pretty fair on-court histories.

[Masterofreality]

I think so. But in this day and age, how can they not have a cable television deal?

Simple. Cable has not arrived in dayton. Neither has electricity, the telegraph and indoor plumbing.

[DC Muskie]

So my first point is mathmatically accurate. The division (or lack of) alignment in a conference has no actual bearing on the overall RPI of the member teams. Unbalanced scheduling may benefit some teams and harm others, but collectively it's neutral. No different that the POD system you recommend.

My second point merely highlights that your opinion that divisions "kill conference tournments" has still not been supported with ANY logic other than "because everyone is doing it."

And my third point is also mathmatically sound, and actually IS A SOLUTION to the giant "problem" that you are attempting to manufacture so you can continue to use your manufactured solution.

So our RPI doesn't change once we are in conference play? It can't go up or down, it remains what it remains because of non conference scheduling? Okay.

Yes it does. It hurts teams who have higher RPIs but get lower seeds and therefore have to play more games. Of course if everything remains neutral it wouldn't matter. But you are right, there is no evidence that conference tournaments are better off without divisions other than the fact that they are. Miss State you won the SEC West! Enjoy the NIT! Vandy, sorry you didn't get the bye, but it doesn't matter at all.

As for your third point, teams do play 16 conference games and it still mattered who they scheduled out of conference. The BE got killed when other leagues figured this out. It's really not that hard of a concept.

[GoMuskies]

As long as we are coming up with every Conference idea imaginable, here's one no one has mentioned/imagined yet:

Go to an 18-Member Conference with Wichita, Xavier

Brilliant!

[DC Muskie]

As long as we are coming up with every Conference idea imaginable, here's one no one has mentioned/imagined yet:

Go to an 18-Member Conference with no divisions in Basketball but geographical divisions in the lesser sports.
WEST (9): Butler, Creighton, Dayton, DePaul, Detroit, Marquette, SLU, Wichita, Xavier
EAST (9): Cleveland State, Georgetown, Providence, Richmond, Seton Hall, St. John's, St. Joseph's, VCU, Villanova
Basketball schedule: 17 games (8 home and 9 away against same teams in even years and the reverse in odd years).
Other sports (who gives a rat's rear end?) --- they'll work it out all right.

I know, it would be quite a jump for Detroit and CSU. But they have a lot to offer in many ways: larger metro/media centers, decent-to-good arenas, and pretty fair on-court histories.

18 team conference?

I'd rather be independent.

Or maybe we could join the AFC North or the AL East. Professional sports have these division plans DOWN!

[paulxu]

All of those people in Ohio are moving to North and South Carolina.

Exactly. And we are none too happy about it.

On a different note, I was pleased to see that Go brought up Wichita. I was going to say something about moving there...then I noticed he had changed his signature line.
10,000 post club? Perfect. And he's the only member.

As to TV market size, where is Dash to straighten that all out? I thought the cable deals were done on a state basis...not local market size basis.
So football expansion only needs one team in North Carolina, not two.
If that's the case, we don't need Dayton. Creighton would be better. Then you could have a reconfiged BE with a number of midwest teams like us, Butler, St. Louis Creighton.

DC, you are posting enough to soon join the Go West Club. Keep it up.

[MHettel]

Arbitron and pretty much every other media source says you are wrong.

I hope you are able to follow that.

Ok. We desperately need Dayton, because we dont already have Dayton although we have Dayton.

Got it.

http://transition.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/

Feel free to educate yourself a little bit. It's neat. There are pictures which should be perfect for you.

Feel free to browse each market to see it's reach. Note how Dayton is within the Cincinnati market.

By the way, Arbitron doesnt do TV market research anymore, but dont let get in the way of your ficticious argument.

[DC Muskie]

Ok. We desperately need Dayton, because we dont already have Dayton although we have Dayton.

Got it.

http://transition.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/

Feel free to educate yourself a little bit. It's neat. There are pictures which should be perfect for you.

Feel free to browse each market to see it's reach. Note how Dayton is within the Cincinnati market.

By the way, Arbitron doesnt do TV market research anymore, but dont let get in the way of your ficticious argument.

Did you actually read the link, or were you too busy wondering why 347 Division 1 college basketball programs can't work out a playoff system like the NFL?

Just in case you were wondering, in college basketball there are 32 conferences. The same number of NFL franchises.

[DC Muskie]

Ok. We desperately need Dayton, because we dont already have Dayton although we have Dayton.

Actually I never argued that we desperately need Dayton. I merely pointed out that their market is larger than Omaha. That's a fact.

Also, Charlottesville overlaps the DC market, but do you think that is going to stop the Big Ten from adding UVA after they brought in Maryland?

[GoMuskies]

I merely pointed out that their market is larger than Omaha. That's a fact.


And smellier. Also a fact.

[MHettel]

So our RPI doesn't change once we are in conference play? It can't go up or down, it remains what it remains because of non conference scheduling? Okay.

Yes it does. It hurts teams who have higher RPIs but get lower seeds and therefore have to play more games. Of course if everything remains neutral it wouldn't matter. But you are right, there is no evidence that conference tournaments are better off without divisions other than the fact that they are. Miss State you won the SEC West! Enjoy the NIT! Vandy, sorry you didn't get the bye, but it doesn't matter at all.

As for your third point, teams do play 16 conference games and it still mattered who they scheduled out of conference. The BE got killed when other leagues figured this out. It's really not that hard of a concept.

You're a tough one. But if you put your mind to it, you might actually understand some of this eventually.

Read what I wrote. I said that any set number of teams playing a specific number of conference games against each other, whether balanced or imbalanced, would experience the EXACT SAME COLLECTIVE impact to their RPI as those same teams playing any other combination of conference opponents. Same number of teams, same number of games, same exact result. Mathmatically, some will benefit from their conference slate while others will be harmed, but in the end none of it matters. The collective impact is ZERO. NULL. So for every case where you point to a team that got "harmed" by imbalanced scheduling, there is one or more teams that had an equal benefit.

Now, lets go back to point #3, where I'll restate what was previously crystal clear, yet somehow got mangled somewhere between your left ear and your right ear. If you have an 18 game schedule like most teams, then REDUCE it to 16 games, then each team gets 2 more non-con games to schedule. If as a group these teams are successfull in winning more than 50% of the incremental non-con games, then you get an overall benefit to the RPI. If the incremental games are won at a rate of less than 50%, then it's damaging. Do you follow? See, all conference games have just one winner and one loser, meaning the collective record for all conference opponents when they play each other must be 50%. If you remove some of those games and replace them with games where it's not guaranteed to produce exactly one win and one loss for the conference RPI, you start actually having an impact.

Think of it this way. Imagine a world where there are no OOC games, and everyone plays a balanced conference schedule. What is RPI at that point? It's just your own winning percentage. Nothing else matters. Everyone in a conference will have substantially the same OPP-OPP winning percentage, and substantially the same OPP winning percentage except for the fact that they cant face themselves as an opponent. So the only difference in these two RPI contributors is your own winning percentage. Add on your own winning percentage as the third leg of the RPI calculation and you get.....NOTHING except 10 leagues with no ability to measure their relative strength.

[DC Muskie]

You're a tough one. But if you put your mind to it, you might actually understand some of this eventually.

Read what I wrote. I said that any set number of teams playing a specific number of conference games against each other, whether balanced or imbalanced, would experience the EXACT SAME COLLECTIVE impact to their RPI as those same teams playing any other combination of conference opponents. Same number of teams, same number of games, same exact result. Mathmatically, some will benefit from their conference slate while others will be harmed, but in the end none of it matters. The collective impact is ZERO. NULL. So for every case where you point to a team that got "harmed" by imbalanced scheduling, there is one or more teams that had an equal benefit.

Now, lets go back to point #3, where I'll restate what was previously crystal clear, yet somehow got mangled somewhere between your left ear and your right ear. If you have an 18 game schedule like most teams, then REDUCE it to 16 games, then each team gets 2 more non-con games to schedule. If as a group these teams are successfull in winning more than 50% of the incremental non-con games, then you get an overall benefit to the RPI. If the incremental games are won at a rate of less than 50%, then it's damaging. Do you follow? See, all conference games have just one winner and one loser, meaning the collective record for all conference opponents when they play each other must be 50%. If you remove some of those games and replace them with games where it's not guaranteed to produce exactly one win and one loss for the conference RPI, you start actually having an impact.

Think of it this way. Imagine a world where there are no OOC games, and everyone plays a balanced conference schedule. What is RPI at that point? It's just your own winning percentage. Nothing else matters. Everyone in a conference will have substantially the same OPP-OPP winning percentage, and substantially the same OPP winning percentage except for the fact that they cant face themselves as an opponent. So the only difference in these two RPI contributors is your own winning percentage. Add on your own winning percentage as the third leg of the RPI calculation and you get.....NOTHING except 10 leagues with no ability to measure their relative strength.

I find it absolutely hilarious that someone who can't figure out the difference between postseason set up in professional sports and college basketball is trying to lecture me...about anything really.

Take a minute to share a chuckle with me on that one.

Feels good to laugh doesn't it?

Now the entire argument was around why you couldn't figure out what every major college commissioner and college basketball coach could. That divisions do not work.

See...let's go back to the Miss State example. They had to play these teams twice, LSU, Ark, Ole Miss, Alabama, & Auburn. Now let's take Vandy. They had to play at least twice, Kentucky, Florida, Tennessee, and Georgia. If you win the SEC West, but your RPI is still around 70, being SEC West champs doesn't mean squat. So, the SEC coaches determined that is a negative thing. Why? Because conference tournaments are where teams get bids, and if the SEC West champ gets a better seed, they have an easier road to the tournament championship. That is bad. If you are seeding teams like that, the net effect on your RPI is not good. For the conference semi finals, you could have Vandy with an RPI of say 50, lose to Miss State because they played an extra game, and could be bounced to a team that will not make the tournament.

With me?

Pod systems shake that premise up. Have to noticed that our OOC scheduling has improved and our in conference schedule also improved? It's not based entirely on OOC scheduling, but it prevents a Temple from having to play Charlotte more than once and effecting their RPI as much, and more importantly, say it with me now...

It helps the seeding of your conference tournament!

Yeah!

See all of these SEC coaches finally figured out what guys in the Big Ten and ACC had done for years. Abolish the stupid geographical set up that is meant simply for football and play a pod system one conference schedule. And BOOM it worked!

Of course in the ACC Va Tech schedules terribly in OOC, loses, then enters conference and wins some but mostly loses. Winning still matters but just like in OOC play, it matters who you play in conference. That helps with seeding. That in turn helps the teams with good RPI's have a better chance making the playoffs, rather than say having Duke capture the NFC South division and get a first round bye before the Chicago Bears come to play them in the first round of the Stanley Cup playoffs.

There. I hope that it helpful. I look forward to reading your next ridiculous statements regarding how conferences should be set up and how the NFL needs more franchises in Omaha and Bismark to lock down those markets.

[waggy]

I see no way that Dayton gets in over Saint Louis. SLU isn't any farther west than Marquette or DePaul.

Whether they divide the conference into divisions or not, it won't affect my interest.

[LA Muskie]

I see no way that Dayton gets in over Saint Louis. SLU isn't any farther west than Marquette or DePaul.

Whether they divide the conference into divisions or not, it won't affect my interest.

I appreciate that the logic doesn't point to Dayton. But they are still well ahead of Saint Louis in the pecking order.

[danaandvictory]

I think so. But in this day and age, how can they not have a cable television deal?

I don't know. It's kind of bizarre they are still on local TV.

[DC Muskie]

I see no way that Dayton gets in over Saint Louis.

Based on what?

[waggy]

Based on what?

Television market, and precedent.

[waggy]

I appreciate that the logic doesn't point to Dayton. But they are still well ahead of Saint Louis in the pecking order.

Whose pecking order? LA Muskies?

[DC Muskie]

Television market, and precedent.

Oh so not based on any fact, just what you think.

Okay. I like the precedent point. Can only imagine what that could mean.

[DC Muskie]

Whose pecking order? LA Muskies?

As opposed to waggy's?

[GoMuskies]

I don't see how either gets in over Wichita State based on who won the NIT most recently.

[waggy]

Oh so not based on any fact, just what you think.

Okay. I like the precedent point. Can only imagine what that could mean.

It's not a fact that the St. Louis market is larger than Daytons? It's not a fact that SLU, Marquette and DePaul already dumped the dump?

[waggy]

Any pecking order that has Dayton ahead of St. Louis is a phucked up pecking order.

[DC Muskie]

It's not a fact that the St. Louis market is larger than Daytons? It's not a fact that SLU, Marquette and DePaul already dumped the dump?

And the fact the BE didn't want SLU?

[GoMuskies]

The Big East totally chose UD over SLU. Dayton just decided to join the A-10 to be with Xavier.

Either that or the Big East chose neither SLU nor UD. But who can tell?

[DC Muskie]

The Big East totally chose UD over SLU. Dayton just decided to join the A-10 to be with Xavier.

Either that or the Big East chose neither SLU nor UD. But who can tell?

Actually the A-10 made a huge mistake not going after Creighton and that important Omaha media market.

[GoMuskies]

I'd trade Creighton for Dayton. Creighton doesn't suck every year.

[DC Muskie]

I'd trade Creighton for Dayton. Creighton doesn't suck every year.

That's really not a high bar.

But someone needs to be the cellar dweller. SLU and Creighton would be good candidates.

[GoMuskies]

What conference would Creighton be a cellar-dwellar in? The NBA's Western Conference?

[DC Muskie]

What conference would Creighton be a cellar-dwellar in? The NBA's Western Conference?

They're not the Lakers. Let's not think that they will be beating us for tournament bids. A bad year we go to the Sweet 16. They haven't done that since 1974.

[GoMuskies]

Of course Creighton is no Xavier. But they're no Dayton either.

[DC Muskie]

But they're no Dayton either.

Again, not a very high bar.

[DC Muskie]

Of course they could win the BE West division and secure a bye then host the wild card team.

[GoMuskies]

Again, not a very high bar.

Agreed. But that's who we're comparing them to.

And Georgetown totally gets screwed having to go to Creighton just because they're stuck in the east with 18-0 Xavier. Damn you divisions!

[xudash]

I step away for a while and come back to some excellent reading!

Where are we on the reset?

1. We're waiting for the ACC to make a decision on UConn or UL.

2. We could be waiting on the ACC to be more proactive, assuming they already know that they're not finished with taking hits from further raids.

3. #2 seems blatantly obvious at this point; the B12 can't possibly be finished with expansion and the B1G is proving to be very active at present.

4. No television deal for the BE yet, with not a whisper of one even being in advanced stages of negotiation at this point; too much instability for it.

5. Even once UConn is officially lost, any TV agreement would reflect that, probably knocking the hoops schools' take under $1mm per.

6. Couple that with UL dying to get out and the Western schools looking at leaving - further instability - and you come up with timing for striking now.

I agree with the comments made about how the new BE BASKETBALL conference will come together. That will be driven on a program basis, as opposed to TV market basis. The caveat being that the BE 7 hoops schools will form the core of it and will call the shots on the additions. So, all those program attributes we've talked about for years will come into play for each program considered:

o Overall Administrative support - basketball regarded as being a strategic asset to the institution.
o Funding support - institutional financial strength and a commitment to strong budgets for coaching staffs, recruiting, etc.
o Facilities - logical facilities solutions that present the league on a top tier basis (no Gola Arena, no Rose Hill Gym).
o Fan support - a clear indication that a successfully run program can draw proportionate fan interest (Butler's achilles heal).
o Resume - NCAA Tournament success primarily.

Given that we already have 7 schools in the club owning the brand, and given that this is about basketball and not land grant schools with hundreds of thousands of aggregate fans clamoring over football, the additions will be about like-minded schools with strong basketball programs that then also provide appealing TV footprints.

That could mean stopping at 9 schools:

BE Hoops 7 + Xavier + ?

That could mean taking it to 12 teams:

BE Hoops 7 + Xavier + Dayton + Richmond + St. Louis + ?

Anything else is just speculation on my part at this point, but I do have to believe that Father Graham has been in discussions with the Georgetown and Marquette presidents by now. With respect to Dayton versus St. Louis, who knows how the discussions break over Little Brother v. a fellow Jesuit school.

[LA Muskie]

Whose pecking order? LA Muskies?
I assure you my pecking order wouldn't include Dayton. But I'm a realist. There is no desire to head to the midwest. Marquette and DePaul are baggage (albeit in favorable media markets). They are not a destination.

[LA Muskie]

I step away for a while and come back to some excellent reading!

Where are we on the reset?

1. We're waiting for the ACC to make a decision on UConn or UL.

2. We could be waiting on the ACC to be more proactive, assuming they already know that they're not finished with taking hits from further raids.

3. #2 seems blatantly obvious at this point; the B12 can't possibly be finished with expansion and the B1G is proving to be very active at present.

4. No television deal for the BE yet, with not a whisper of one even being in advanced stages of negotiation at this point; too much instability for it.

5. Even once UConn is officially lost, any TV agreement would reflect that, probably knocking the hoops schools' take under $1mm per.

6. Couple that with UL dying to get out and the Western schools looking at leaving - further instability - and you come up with timing for striking now.

I agree with the comments made about how the new BE BASKETBALL conference will come together. That will be driven on a program basis, as opposed to TV market basis. The caveat being that the BE 7 hoops schools will form the core of it and will call the shots on the additions. So, all those program attributes we've talked about for years will come into play for each program considered:

o Overall Administrative support - basketball regarded as being a strategic asset to the institution.
o Funding support - institutional financial strength and a commitment to strong budgets for coaching staffs, recruiting, etc.
o Facilities - logical facilities solutions that present the league on a top tier basis (no Gola Arena, no Rose Hill Gym).
o Fan support - a clear indication that a successfully run program can draw proportionate fan interest (Butler's achilles heal).
o Resume - NCAA Tournament success primarily.

Given that we already have 7 schools in the club owning the brand, and given that this is about basketball and not land grant schools with hundreds of thousands of aggregate fans clamoring over football, the additions will be about like-minded schools with strong basketball programs that then also provide appealing TV footprints.

That could mean stopping at 9 schools:

BE Hoops 7 + Xavier + ?

That could mean taking it to 12 teams:

BE Hoops 7 + Xavier + Dayton + Richmond + St. Louis + ?

Anything else is just speculation on my part at this point, but I do have to believe that Father Graham has been in discussions with the Georgetown and Marquette presidents by now. With respect to Dayton versus St. Louis, who knows how the discussions break over Little Brother v. a fellow Jesuit school.
I can confirm nothing (on the record at least). But you can assume that (i) XU is the #1 choice among the BE Hoops 7; (ii) Dayton is almost certainly choice #2 (and probably a lock to get the league to at least 9); and (iii) conversations have already begun among the powers that be.

[GoMuskies]

i can confirm nothing (on the record at least).

lol

[LA Muskie]

It's a tough balancing act, Go. And I didn't go to the Mitt Romney school of fence-sitting, so I'm not particularly good at it. (Plus it sounds like it would really hurt...)

[paulxu]

Here's a fun little exercise...the BE BB schools with some additions to 12, 6 teams in the East, 6 in the Midwest ...and their RPI from last year. I'd love to think of VCU instead of Richmond, but Richmond fits the profile better. 4 of the 5 teams on the bottom are from the BE. I haven't a clue why this group would have to have Dayton, rather than Butler, St. Louis or Creighton.

Marquette...9
Georgetown...14
Creighton...23
St Louis...28
Xavier...38
Seton Hall...70
Butler...106
Villanova...120
Richmond...131
St Johns...155
Providence...156
DePaul...193

[paulxu]

I think MOR made this tweet:

MHver3‏@MHver3

St Johns and GT Introduced a vote to dissolve the BigEast today. They were 2 votes short of the 2/3 needed. 3 schools were no shows

[DC Muskie]

I think MOR made this tweet:

MHver3‏@MHver3

St Johns and GT Introduced a vote to dissolve the BigEast today. They were 2 votes short of the 2/3 needed. 3 schools were no shows

I wonder if members like Syracuse and Pitt get to vote.

Or which schools didn't show up. You have to imagine that SJU and GTown would have the votes lined up before bringing it to the table, right?

[paulxu]

Or which schools didn't show up. You have to imagine that SJU and GTown would have the votes lined up before bringing it to the table, right?

You sure would think so. That's one screwed up mess going on right now between the ACC/BE and everybody else.
I blame ND. I think the Big10 got mad they wouldn't join, and went to the ACC. So the Big10 said screw that, we and the Big 12 will just kill the ACC.

ND needs to get a life. I'm rooting for any SEC team to beat 'em.
I use to like them when I was a kid, but nowdays I think they are way to arrogant.

[DC Muskie]

You sure would think so. That's one screwed up mess going on right now between the ACC/BE and everybody else.
I blame ND. I think the Big10 got mad they wouldn't join, and went to the ACC. So the Big10 said screw that, we and the Big 12 will just kill the ACC.

ND needs to get a life. I'm rooting for any SEC team to beat 'em.
I use to like them when I was a kid, but nowdays I think they are way to arrogant.

It looks like DePaul and Marquette voted no to disband.


WHY?

[JTG]

It looks like DePaul and Marquette voted no to disband.


WHY?

DePaul has been a steaming pile of turds for years....why do they get off calling the shots, and once again Marquette is a fly in the ointment of XU success.

[paulxu]

It looks like DePaul and Marquette voted no to disband.


WHY?

Maybe they need the money from football more than the other schools.

[xudash]

I think MOR made this tweet:

MHver3‏@MHver3

St Johns and GT Introduced a vote to dissolve the BigEast today. They were 2 votes short of the 2/3 needed. 3 schools were no shows

I'm reading that the tweet was a farce.

[paulxu]

You want some fun, go read his new tweets starting about 1 hour ago. He was going to update the going ons today.

https://twitter.com/MHver3

[muskiefan82]

I'm reading that the tweet was a farce.

Wait a minute. You mean all tweets aren't solid facts!??!? I call shenanigans.

[DC Muskie]

Miami and FSU leading candidates for Big 12 expansion. I think today is going to be crazy.

[Juice]

Miami and FSU leading candidates for Big 12 expansion. I think today is going to be crazy.

I may have missed it, but what happened to Clemson?

[MCXU]

Miami and FSU leading candidates for Big 12 expansion. I think today is going to be crazy.

This.

In fact I think Miami gets the next invite in all this and FSU follows just like Maryland followed by Rutgers.

Then...

See breaking loose - - - all hell.

[DC Muskie]

I may have missed it, but what happened to Clemson?

I think they are in the next round.

So it will be Miami, FSU, then Clempson/Va Tech/GaTech/UNC/NCST combination.

But I guess what will happen is the SEC will move first. could be UNC/NC State/Va Tech combination.

[muskienick]

Here's a fun little exercise...the BE BB schools with some additions to 12, 6 teams in the East, 6 in the Midwest ...and their RPI from last year. I'd love to think of VCU instead of Richmond, but Richmond fits the profile better. 4 of the 5 teams on the bottom are from the BE. I haven't a clue why this group would have to have Dayton, rather than Butler, St. Louis or Creighton.

Marquette...9
Georgetown...14
Creighton...23
St Louis...28
Xavier...38
Seton Hall...70
Butler...106
Villanova...120
Richmond...131
St Johns...155
Providence...156
DePaul...193

I'd take Paul's Pack in a NY second. I especially like his careful omission of overlapping metro/media areas except where it it can bear it (St. John's/Seton Hall). Almost every other college basketball-crazy metro area from the Atlantic to the Missouri River (not "saddled" by a Big 6 school) is covered by a quality program in Paul's plan, either currently or historically! Heck, even DePuke (as some refer to the Blue Demons) would have placed 5th in the A-10 in home attendance last season with their 7,000+ average!

[DC Muskie]

Oh BYU will be in the Big 12 conversation as well. Supposedly they were set to go to the BE until Rutgers bolted.

Crazy.

[muskienick]

This is getting to be more and more fun as the days go on.

Is there truly any way that UC could come up smelling like a rose in this scamble even with their less-than-BCS facilities and fanbases for FB and BB? Could their recent rise in respectability in FB and semi-respectability in BB (despite 5th-3rd Arena and YTG) keep them out of a nouveau C-USA, or will their lower place in the pecking order place them in a league with directional schools (South and Central Florida, East Carolina, etc.), Military Academies nobody else wants (Army, Air Force, or Navy), the castoffs of the old SW Conference (Houston, SMU) and the like?

I'd guess we will learn most of the story by the end of June, 2013.

[blueblob06]

Here's a fun little exercise...the BE BB schools with some additions to 12, 6 teams in the East, 6 in the Midwest ...and their RPI from last year. I'd love to think of VCU instead of Richmond, but Richmond fits the profile better. 4 of the 5 teams on the bottom are from the BE. I haven't a clue why this group would have to have Dayton, rather than Butler, St. Louis or Creighton.

Marquette...9
Georgetown...14
Creighton...23
St Louis...28
Xavier...38
Seton Hall...70
Butler...106
Villanova...120
Richmond...131
St Johns...155
Providence...156
DePaul...193


I'd take Paul's Pack in a NY second. I especially like his careful omission of overlapping metro/media areas except where it it can bear it (St. John's/Seton Hall). Almost every other college basketball-crazy metro area from the Atlantic to the Missouri River (not "saddled" by a Big 6 school) is covered by a quality program in Paul's plan, either currently or historically! Heck, even DePuke (as some refer to the Blue Demons) would have placed 5th in the A-10 in home attendance last season with their 7,000+ average!
That would be great...a 12-team conference with rivalry games. We could play SLU/Butler/Depaul for example twice a year (Goodbye Dayton!) and not have the bottom 4-5 teams pulling our conference's RPI down every year.

[DC Muskie]

Again don't dismiss Dayton.

An interesting article on the research ESPN did in TV ratings for college basketball over the last ten years.

Dayton sits 8th nationally. Not sure why ESPN didn't lump them into the Cincinnati market since MH tells us differently.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/etc/how-many-college-basketball-tv-ratings-does-milwaukee-lay-up-lu7iul7-178492591.html

[GoMuskies]

Again don't dismiss Dayton.


Please do dismiss Dayton. From our lives.

[Masterofreality]

Please do dismiss Dayton. From our lives.

F-em....Really. F-em!

[SM#24]

Is there truly any way that UC could come up smelling like a rose in this scamble

If the ACC is gutted (FlaSt, Clemson, GaTech, UNC, NCSt, VaTech, UVa, etc), I think UC ends up with the leftovers from the BE and ACC (i.e. Wake, BC, Syr, Pitt, UConn, maybe even Duke). Not a bad situation if a few decent schools are left behind.

But, it all depends on how many move to the Big 4.

While I don't think it's going to end up as neatly as 4x16; let's say in some manner there are 64 Big 4 spots. Right now, there are only 50 taken.
Are there 14 more teams to shift that add value ? Who are they ?
From the BE, I see only two - UConn and Louisville
From the ACC, I think these schools definitely add value - FlaSt, GaTech, UNC; I think these schools add some value, or at least breakeven - Clemson, Miami, Duke, NCSt, UVa, VaTech, Pitt, Syr; I'm not sure about BC and I think Wake definitely stays behind.
Who else is out there ? BYU, Boise, ND (doubtful for football),anyone else ?

Fun times

[bleedXblue]

Total CF

They call these institution for higher learning ?

Hogwash

Money grubbing cons if you ask me.

All should be embarressed in how they're slicing and dicing all of this up.

Does ANYONE has the nuts to stand up and say this is ridiculous ?

Do away with the BCS, it's fu&*ed the whole thing up.

[DC Muskie]

I don't see what is so wrong. Football is a product people buy and it helps schools. they are not doing this in a vacuum and pushing it on people.

[muskienick]

If the ACC is gutted (FlaSt, Clemson, GaTech, UNC, NCSt, VaTech, UVa, etc), I think UC ends up with the leftovers from the BE and ACC (i.e. Wake, BC, Syr, Pitt, UConn, maybe even Duke). Not a bad situation if a few decent schools are left behind.

But, it all depends on how many move to the Big 4.

While I don't think it's going to end up as neatly as 4x16; let's say in some manner there are 64 Big 4 spots. Right now, there are only 50 taken.
Are there 14 more teams to shift that add value ? Who are they ?
From the BE, I see only two - UConn and Louisville
From the ACC, I think these schools definitely add value - FlaSt, GaTech, UNC; I think these schools add some value, or at least breakeven - Clemson, Miami, Duke, NCSt, UVa, VaTech, Pitt, Syr; I'm not sure about BC and I think Wake definitely stays behind.
Who else is out there ? BYU, Boise, ND (doubtful for football),anyone else ?

Fun times

The one thing BC would have over Wake, Cincy, and the others would be the Boston market. That might just be too lucrative for one of the Big 4 to overlook, although I'd be hard pressed to know into which one they would best fit! Would BC win out over UC or would the Bearcats get the invitation because of their more geographically-friendly location? If money continues to be the determining factor in all these decisions, then Cincy may wind up on the outside looking in were the 4x16 configuration materialize!

It all might come down to which of the four Conferences is last to "pull the trigger."

[DC Muskie]

Where does ND fit into the 4 x 16 structure?

[xudash]

I don't see what is so wrong. Football is a product people buy and it helps schools. they are not doing this in a vacuum and pushing it on people.

Exactly.

It's the evolution of the sport.

We're long past the days of grainy black and white newsreels of Harvard/Yale.

Cable, digital television with boodles of channels.

Marketing.

Everything that is happening is both logical and unstoppable.

Xavier has done a masterful job of positioning itself to be a player in the second most important collegiate sport out there. From a comical independent to the landlord of the MCC to the Flagship of the A10 and hopefully to exchanging the likes of LaSalle for Georgetown, X is truly positioning itself for long term success in hoops, and the rest of its athletic programs are spinning up with solid results as part of that effect.

[xudash]

Where does ND fit into the 4 x 16 structure?

I'm assuming it would end up as a 64 + 1 format, with the parameters spelled out for ND's inclusion in the playoff structure for any given season, similar to how that's done now.

Kudos to ND if it can pull that off. Otherwise, Delaney, Slive and Company are going to put a hard press on ND, in terms of making those parameters brutal, should ND remain independent.

[DC Muskie]

Exactly.

It's the evolution of the sport.

We're long past the days of grainy black and white newsreels of Harvard/Yale.

Cable, digital television with boodles of channels.

Marketing.

Everything that is happening is both logical and unstoppable.

Xavier has done a masterful job of positioning itself to be a player in the second most important collegiate sport out there. From a comical independent to the landlord of the MCC to the Flagship of the A10 and hopefully to exchanging the likes of LaSalle for Georgetown, X is truly positioning itself for long term success in hoops, and the rest of its athletic programs are spinning up with solid results as part of that effect.

Have you read anything regarding a potential nn only conference and a tv deal with NBC cable sports? I read a rumor NBC might be interested in something like that. NBC just signed a deal with CAA.

[muskienick]

Where does ND fit into the 4 x 16 structure?

Why would they have to fit anywhere in that pecking order? With the Irish's remarkable re-emergence this season, their timing is perfect to maintain their independence in FB while being courted by at least 2 of the four (in the 4 x 16 structure) as a non-football member.

However, if the 4 x 16 play hardball with ND (and the NCAA/BCS!!!), one might surmise that they would likely land in the Big-10 or Big-12.

[DC Muskie]

I can't imagine they would exclude the ratings draw that is ND.

[GoMuskies]

I would imagine ND would have the same deal everyone inside and outside the major conferences would have with respect to the Final Four (the committee can select you), and they'd have their own special deal for access to the other major bowls. Pretty much the same as now.

[DC Muskie]

I would imagine ND would have the same deal everyone inside and outside the major conferences would have with respect to the Final Four (the committee can select you), and they'd have their own special deal for access to the other major bowls. Pretty much the same as now.

I forgot about the committee. Good point. I keep thinking they should just have divisions and be done with it.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

RUMOR ALERT:


Virginia Board of Trustees is meeting to discuss and possibly accept a Big 10 invitation. North Carolina also discussing option


@CFravel247: Virginia having a board of trustees meeting? UVa and UNC targets to B10?
http://clemson.247sports.com/Board/22/900-am-update-North-Carolina-and-Virginia-B10-targets-14390451/1

MHver3 ‏@MHver3
Yeah I can confirm what Fravel is reporting. UVA BOT will meet today to possibly accept B10 offer. Might they sit at 15 or will they go 16?

[DC Muskie]

I thought MHver said later UVA will not vote today on the invite. Do I have that correct?

[LA Muskie]

I thought MHver said later UVA will not vote today on the invite. Do I have that correct?

He said their protocol would be to vote to authorize someone to act (i.e., to delegate their authority) not to vote on the bid itself.

[DC Muskie]

He said their protocol would be to vote to authorize someone to act (i.e., to delegate their authority) not to vote on the bid itself.

I'm stupid...what does that mean exactly? Have the president accept the bid?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

He said their protocol would be to vote to authorize someone to act (i.e., to delegate their authority) not to vote on the bid itself.


I thought MHver said later UVA will not vote today on the invite. Do I have that correct?

To be honest I don't take him too seriously at all. At first I was like "Maybe" and then I realized he's probably full of sh*t at least 75% of the time. No one could have that many sources to know all of what's going on. Even people who are directly involved in negotiations don't know. I just put him on here for entertainment value now. It is fun watching him and the other "realignment figures" go at it

[LA Muskie]

I'm stupid...what does that mean exactly? Have the president accept the bid?

Yes, exactly. It typically means that they authorize the president to do what he thinks should be done. Which is tantamount to approval, because they already know what he thinks. It's basically political separation from the decision but effectively approval.

[bleedXblue]

I don't see what is so wrong. Football is a product people buy and it helps schools. they are not doing this in a vacuum and pushing it on people.

There's no commitment, loyalty etc anymore.

Drop a conference and go elsewhere for more $$$

When will it stop ? No one knows.

Just remember, we're (X) is a VERY small fish in a VERY big pond in all of this.

We will lose the $$ game every time with the big schools.

You don't think the Big 4 are going to try and persuade the NCAA and TV/Cable to build the tournament parameters around themselves ?

Just wait and watch, it's coming. It will be more and more difficult to have a seat at the table in the years to follow.

We may end up in a "better" conference with a buinch of have nots b/c football have to strong a play in all of this.

[BandAid]

There's no commitment, loyalty etc anymore.

Drop a conference and go elsewhere for more $$$

When will it stop ? No one knows.

Just remember, we're (X) is a VERY small fish in a VERY big pond in all of this.

We will lose the $$ game every time with the big schools.

You don't think the Big 4 are going to try and persuade the NCAA and TV/Cable to build the tournament parameters around themselves ?

Just wait and watch, it's coming. It will be more and more difficult to have a seat at the table in the years to follow.

We may end up in a "better" conference with a buinch of have nots b/c football have to strong a play in all of this.

I've even heard doomsday scenarios in which the mega conferences step away from the NCAA all together. Now that would be a huge slippery slope, but if that were to occur everyone else is screwed.

[xudash]

Have you read anything regarding a potential nn only conference and a tv deal with NBC cable sports? I read a rumor NBC might be interested in something like that. NBC just signed a deal with CAA.

Not directly, but it seems clear that is a reality; a few people have commented on seeing it.

[Pluto]

I've even heard doomsday scenarios in which the mega conferences step away from the NCAA all together. Now that would be a huge slippery slope, but if that were to occur everyone else is screwed.

I don't think they will do that and risk losing the tax exempt status the NCAA gets. Big time slippery slope on that side as well.

[coasterville95]

You mean the NCAA tournament, or step away from the NCAA as the governing body for college sports.

That may suit the mega programs just fine to get out from all those burdonsome recruiting and compensation regulations. Then, they can still be NFL farm clubs, but at least they can be open and honest about it beinga business with paid players and the like.

We may even end up in a conference called the "Big East" but make no mistake, it wil have about as much clout as saying A10 does today.

And this is what Muskie aludded to when he said he has a nagging feelign that non football college sports will forever be ruined in this.

[BandAid]

You mean the NCAA tournament, or step away from the NCAA as the governing body for college sports.

That may suit the mega programs just fine to get out from all those burdonsome recruiting and compensation regulations. Then, they can still be NFL farm clubs, but at least they can be open and honest about it beinga business with paid players and the like.


First depart from the NCAA, thus crippling the organization. The opportunity to pay players and sort of sidestep the middleman in other sports were the reasons given. As a result, the basketball tourney would fold. Essentially the idea is that the Power 4 would be large enough and have enough clout to form a monopoly.


I don't think they will do that and risk losing the tax exempt status the NCAA gets. Big time slippery slope on that side as well.

I know. I don't think it's going to happen. But I figured that since everything else is going crazy we might as throw those mashed potatoes against the wall too.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Joe Schad ‏@schadjoe

Tulane will join Big East for all sports



haha

[BMoreX]

Joe Schad ‏@schadjoe

Tulane will join Big East for all sports



haha

Did the hoops schools really agree to this? What a terrible addition.

[outsideobserver11]

Did the hoops schools really agree to this? What a terrible addition.

Lot of stuff out there that Fresno will soon be added as well. The conference had to be notified of schools leaving it seems.

[BMoreX]

And hereeeeeee we go:

Brett McMurphy ‏@McMurphyESPN
East Carolina will join Big East as football only member in 2014, sources told @ESPN

[xudash]

There's no commitment, loyalty etc anymore.

Drop a conference and go elsewhere for more $$$

When will it stop ? No one knows.

Just remember, we're (X) is a VERY small fish in a VERY big pond in all of this.

We will lose the $$ game every time with the big schools.

You don't think the Big 4 are going to try and persuade the NCAA and TV/Cable to build the tournament parameters around themselves ?

Just wait and watch, it's coming. It will be more and more difficult to have a seat at the table in the years to follow.

We may end up in a "better" conference with a buinch of have nots b/c football have to strong a play in all of this.

I have held firm to the position that the Big4 are solving for football and would never be utterly stupid enough to completely pull away (i.e. to blow up the NCAA Tournament as it presently exists).

Why won't they fully separate? I'll give you $2 billion reasons, all existing inside CBS's checkbook. The NCAA Tournament as presently structured has drama and inclusiveness locked into it. Were they to go "club deal" on this gig, it would, IMO, not fall apart, but would materially lose its market appeal. Assume 64 schools with average student population + alumni base of 80,000, or an aggregate of 5,120,000 fans. I don't know if that is a good average number or not, but I have the student component of that at 40k per school, which I believe is conservative.

If they take away the David/Goliath games, the inclusive nature of the tournament, and the interest in brackets (where people who otherwise aren't huge college hoops fans participate), they will create massive ill will, reduced interest and, obviously, viewership. Compare a base of primarily interested fans to the following:

http://fangsbites.com/2012/04/cbs-claims-ratings-victory-for-ncaa-mens-basketball-championship/

Coverage across the four networks of TBS, CBS, TNT and truTV averaged a HH rating/share of 6.1/13 compared to last year’s 6.4/14 and 2010’s 6.0/13 according to Nielsen Fast Nationals. This year’s tournament averaged 9.6 million viewers compared to 10.2 million last year and 9.5 million in 2010.

So, I take the above excerpt to be providing data on the F4 weekend. You can argue less parties to divide the pie up by, but the pie itself would take a hit, and I'm only commenting on the economics of making such a draconian move; the political fallout would be otherwise brutal, IMO.

More to the point, the early round games would be comical, in terms of television market appeal, as compared to the existing tournament.

[DC Muskie]

There's no commitment, loyalty etc anymore.

Drop a conference and go elsewhere for more $$$

When will it stop ? No one knows.

Just remember, we're (X) is a VERY small fish in a VERY big pond in all of this.

We will lose the $$ game every time with the big schools.

You don't think the Big 4 are going to try and persuade the NCAA and TV/Cable to build the tournament parameters around themselves ?

Just wait and watch, it's coming. It will be more and more difficult to have a seat at the table in the years to follow.

We may end up in a "better" conference with a buinch of have nots b/c football have to strong a play in all of this.

What does loyalty have anything to do with it, when the possibility of your athletic department sinking the school, like at Maryland? All terps fans who hate this deal says they are upset about losing a rivalry with Duke. Duke doesn't care about Maryland. If Duke had this deal they would have bolted themselves.

I don't have a problem with football schools leaving the NCAA if they want. It's not like we will somehow become a division 2 school. A football school only tournament for basketball isn't going to somehow supercede what the actual tournament is about...smaller schools performing at a higher stage in March. I doubt the football schools would want to lose that.

[outsideobserver11]

And hereeeeeee we go:

Brett McMurphy ‏@McMurphyESPN
East Carolina will join Big East as football only member in 2014, sources told @ESPN

I'm pretty sure that at this moment the Big East has like 18 football teams and 25 basketball teams.

[xudash]

So how does this voting in the BE work?

Who is this being driven by? UL, UC and UConn, who are all wanting an exit from all this anyway?

7 basketball schools.

UL, UC, USF and UConn (I'm assuming Pitt and Syracuse are out of the voting pool, obviously); ND is out of it.

The new additions can't vote yet.

I'll believe additional football additions from the bottom of the barrel when I read an official (AP Wire) press release about it.

In short, the basketball schools deserve their fate if they're continuing to barnacle themselves onto the hull of what has become a rusted barge.

[paulxu]

Paul's plan for basketball using the Big Least non-football schools assumes Dash's (I think) earlier comment that TV cable markets are done by state.
So no need for Dayton.

As to football...it's a damn shame ND is having such a good year (althought not against a SEC schedule comparison) and will keep them thinking they can remain independent. I still think (stupidly I guess) that they belong in the Big 10.

Take all the ACC schools and BE schools to fill out the Big 12.

[DC Muskie]

In short, the basketball schools deserve their fate if they're continuing to barnacle themselves onto the hull of what has become a rusted barge.

If they get more money out of it, then it won't surprise me. I can't see GTown getting excited about playing SMU and East Carolina, unless they get money from a great TV deal.

By the way, what is the A-10 TV deal again?

[xubrew]

Tulane is joining the Big East as a full member, and East Carolina is joining as a football only member.

We have now officially thrown in the towel on sanity. Tulane. They have a seven game losing streak to Memphis in football, and their average attendance in football and basketball can fit comfortably into most peoples' dining rooms. If you go to a movie on Saturday night, chances are there is a bigger crowd at the movie than there is at a Tulane football or basketball game.

Wow. Just wow. Any ideas or speculations people have about Xavier joining the Big East need to be reassessed. The people that would ultmately make a decision like that just invited Tulane to join as a full member. Also, keep in mind, that that conclusion could not have been reached without the support of the non-football schools. I cannot even begin to imagine what the thought process was.

I've never been a big proponent of joining the Big East, largely because I've always thought it to be an impossibility. You know what?? Have a nice day. I'd rather not be alligned with schools that have displayed such poor stability AND who somehow decided that inviting Tulane was a good idea. No thanks. No way. People are leaving the Big East as fast as they can, and the ones that aren't able to leave just invited Tulane to join them. Forget it. I'm starting to like the Atlantic Ten an awful lot all of a sudden.

[xubrew]

The ONLY think I can think of is that they wanted the New Orleans market in their footprint. The thinking is that it will increase their media market and generate a bigger TV deal. The problem is that no one in New Orleans cares about Tulane.

[paulxu]

If you're the Big East, and you invite San Deigo State to join, which is located just about as far away as you can get from the Big East football schools...Tulane makes sense I guess.

[DC Muskie]

Paul's plan for basketball using the Big Least non-football schools assumes Dash's (I think) earlier comment that TV cable markets are done by state.
So no need for Dayton.

That can't be true for basketball. Especially when ESPN is putting out information saying Dayton is the 8th best market in the nation for ratings.

If the reality is by state, then we might as well put Duquesne on the list because they add Pennsylvania.

[LA Muskie]

If Georgetown would prefer to cash in on crappy football (at a level they don't even play) at the expense of a legitimate basketball slate the dynamic has become absurd. And they can kiss my alumni dollars goodbye.

[LA Muskie]

If you're the Big East, and you invite San Deigo State to join, which is located just about as far away as you can get from the Big East football schools...Tulane makes sense I guess.

Next up...Hawaii???

[paulxu]

If the reality is by state, then we might as well put Duquesne on the list because they add Pennsylvania.

Not if your league already has a team in Pennsylvania.

[MHettel]

That can't be true for basketball. Especially when ESPN is putting out information saying Dayton is the 8th best market in the nation for ratings.

If the reality is by state, then we might as well put Duquesne on the list because they add Pennsylvania.

AGAIN. The markets are defined by city, or more than one city. Markets overlap. The Cincinnati market includes Dayton. Dayton is already captured. Adding Dayon really amounts to adding nothing.

Facts are just facts.

[DC Muskie]

AGAIN. The markets are defined by city, or more than one city. Markets overlap. The Cincinnati market includes Dayton. Dayton is already captured. Adding Dayon really amounts to adding nothing.

Facts are just facts.

Okay. Please call up Bristol and tell them to stop ranking Dayton separately then.

They need you to teach them something they obviously do not understand.

[xudash]

If Georgetown would prefer to cash in on crappy football (at a level they don't even play) at the expense of a legitimate basketball slate the dynamic has become absurd. And they can kiss my alumni dollars goodbye.

Wouldn't the point be that they won't be cashing in on crappy football? At what point does it not become clear that the cash value of the hybrid model is outweighed by what is strategically right for the basketball side of the house?

So, let's play with numbers. I'm assuming, flat out, that the Tulane move is about STABILITY OF THE HYBRID, because it cannot possibly be about MORE TELEVISION REVENUE DUE TO FOOTBALL.

UConn is still most likely leaving. I have to imagine that UL will leave, either to the ACC, should the ACC be raided more, or to the B12. You take those two programs out of the BE alone, and the money caves. It just caves. What already was looking like a < $1mm proposition for the hoops schools due to the loss of Rutgers and most likely UConn begins to look even worse. So this "sustainability" play manages to get you - the BE - back to the table with a network to negotiate a TV deal. OMG. It will be laughable; it will be C-USAesque.

And I haven't even mentioned further B4 raids on the ACC, which will absolutely trigger the losses of UL and UC.

I don't think I'm biased on all this. I think I'm looking at it with sufficient objectivity.

I'll note this however, and I now mean this more than ever: should this come to pass and these poor 7 basketball schools allow themselves to be mapped into this mess, then may they die the slow death they'll die as attendance in their NBA arenas dries up over time.

AND, if this comes to pass, may there no longer be the f'ing patsy attitude that exists within the A10. It will be time to cut the deadwood to truly answer the BE's stupidity. It will be time to vote to cut:

- LaSalle
- Fordham
- Duquesne
- SBU

SBU will deserve the league's help in landing on its feet. LaSalle and Fordham should be made to pay the conference an ineptitude fee. Duquesne can quietly be let go.

If this is going to be the result, the A10 had better do what is in its best interests. Its best interests doesn't include a pathetic 3rd wheel in Philly and a lost at sea school in Brooklyn.

[DC Muskie]

AGAIN. The markets are defined by city, or more than one city. Markets overlap. The Cincinnati market includes Dayton. Dayton is already captured. Adding Dayon really amounts to adding nothing.

Facts are just facts.


Okay. Please call up Bristol and tell them to stop ranking Dayton separately then.

They need you to teach them something they obviously do not understand.

Oh and when you are done talking to ESPN, you can call the A-10 who apparently also doesn't understand that Dayton is not a separate market.

From their press release last month announcing their TV deal:

The A-10 is in seven of the top 25 media markets, including four of the top 10. Beginning in 2013-14, all 14 conference members will be in the top 65 media markets in the country and the Atlantic 10 media footprint will reach over 33 million television households, which is approximately 33 percent of the US television market.

All 14 teams are in the top 65 media markets? How is that? Why didn't they stop at 58 with Richmond? Why did they go to 65? Wait...Dayton is at 64. That's strange. Help me out here please!

[LA Muskie]

Dash, that's the question I think. Why would Georgetown agree to this? They would essentially be sacrificing their trademark sport for football for football's sake. It doesn't add up.

Unless, of course, Georgetown and St. John's had nothing to do with this proposal, and this is the remainder's way of saying that the Big East is going to survive come hell or high water, so they can either rally behind the conference or jump ship. In which case they may have to swallow a bitter pill and join the A-10, which will be better for them basketball-wise at that point, but will nevertheless seem at first blush to be a demotion.

[DC Muskie]

Dash you bring up a good point that I can't understand what the bb only schools are thinking.

Take GTown. How are they going to sell tickets in the Verizon playing against Tulane? What are the ratings for that going to be?

The Dayton/Xavier game alone drills it into the ground.

The Hoyas are going to lose so many marque match ups, I think you are correct. It will be a slow death. No ND or especially Syracuse? Replace them with Houston and SMU? They are going to have to give tickets away.

[LA Muskie]

Dash you bring up a good point that I can't understand what the bb only schools are thinking.

Take GTown. How are they going to sell tickets in the Verizon playing against Tulane? What are the ratings for that going to be?

The Dayton/Xavier game alone drills it into the ground.

The Hoyas are going to lose so many marque match ups, I think you are correct. It will be a slow death. No ND or especially Syracuse? Replace them with Houston and SMU? They are going to have to give tickets away.
I agree with all of this, except that I don't think the death will be slow. This has to mean that something is going on behind the scenes as to Georgetown and St. John's (who reportedly favored dissolution yesterday).

[DC Muskie]

Dash, that's the question I think. Why would Georgetown agree to this? They would essentially be sacrificing their trademark sport for football for football's sake. It doesn't add up.

Unless, of course, Georgetown and St. John's had nothing to do with this proposal, and this is the remainder's way of saying that the Big East is going to survive come hell or high water, so they can either rally behind the conference or jump ship. In which case they may have to swallow a bitter pill and join the A-10, which will be better for them basketball-wise at that point, but will nevertheless seem at first blush to be a demotion.

GTown and GW in the same conference? Man the Hoyas would LOVE that!

[danaandvictory]

All 14 teams are in the top 65 media markets? How is that? Why didn't they stop at 58 with Richmond? Why did they go to 65? Wait...Dayton is at 64. That's strange. Help me out here please!

If we finally hit manifest destiny and go independent we could enter into a scheduling alliance with the other indies -- Cal State Bakersfield, NJIT, Chicago State, Texas-Pan American, and New Orleans. That would give us access to the lucrative LA, NYC, Chicago, Mexico City, and New Orleans TV markets! FREAKING AWESOME.

[DC Muskie]

I agree with all of this, except that I don't think the death will be slow. This has to mean that something is going on behind the scenes as to Georgetown and St. John's (who reportedly favored dissolution yesterday).

Yeah but they voted for Tulane. I would guess GTown and SJU decided to wait and see how much money they could stockpile in exit fees so they could build a 10,000 arena on campus to move into when the whole thing eventually falls apart.

They have to hoping beyond hope that Maryland has to pay $50 million to leave the ACC.

[DC Muskie]

If we finally hit manifest destiny and go independent we could enter into a scheduling alliance with the other indies -- Cal State Bakersfield, NJIT, Chicago State, Texas-Pan American, and New Orleans. That would give us access to the lucrative LA, NYC, Chicago, Mexico City, and New Orleans TV markets! FREAKING AWESOME.

I think I hear a possible podcast topic!!!!!

[LA Muskie]

GTown and GW in the same conference? Man the Hoyas would LOVE that!
I think they are well beyond getting their #1 (or #2) choice. Sadly you've got to take the bad with the good sometimes...

[LA Muskie]

Yeah but they voted for Tulane. I would guess GTown and SJU decided to wait and see how much money they could stockpile in exit fees so they could build a 10,000 arena on campus to move into when the whole thing eventually falls apart.

They have to hoping beyond hope that Maryland has to pay $50 million to leave the ACC.
How do we know they voted for the additions? And how would the $50 million ACC exit fee help either Georgetown or St. John's?

[GoMuskies]

You can follow the Hoya fans' rantings here: http://hoyatalk2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=24720&page=96

I believe they're still in shock, but they appear to prefer the new Big East to the A-10.

[xudash]

I agree with all of this, except that I don't think the death will be slow. This has to mean that something is going on behind the scenes as to Georgetown and St. John's (who reportedly favored dissolution yesterday).

Exactly. NBA arena rent sticks out like a sore appendage very quickly when these facilities become echo chambers during games.

[DC Muskie]

How do we know they voted for the additions? And how would the $50 million ACC exit fee help either Georgetown or St. John's?

MHVER reported it. Don't know if that is true.

If Maryland sets the precedent in court that exit fees are not enforceable, that will have a huge ripple effect. You're a lawyer that makes sense right? Even if they negotiated it down, that will be a problem for others. I'm not off on that thinking am I?

[xudash]

Yeah but they voted for Tulane. I would guess GTown and SJU decided to wait and see how much money they could stockpile in exit fees so they could build a 10,000 arena on campus to move into when the whole thing eventually falls apart.

They have to hoping beyond hope that Maryland has to pay $50 million to leave the ACC.

You would know better than anyone, though I'm very familiar with D.C. and the Georgetown area, but that would be some kind of stockpile; the money they would need to build a 10k arena on campus is virtually unimaginable. Almost as unimaginable as gaining the building permits to do it.

[DC Muskie]

You can follow the Hoya fans' rantings here: http://hoyatalk2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=24720&page=96

I believe they're still in shock, but they appear to prefer the new Big East to the A-10.

I love the people that think Kentucky will leave the SEC for the ACC to get better at football.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

You can follow the Hoya fans' rantings here: http://hoyatalk2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=24720&page=96

I believe they're still in shock, but they appear to prefer the new Big East to the A-10.

A weakened BE with football still makes much more money than a conference with no football.

[GoMuskies]

Kentucky makes a lot more sense from a competitive standpoint in the ACC with Duke and UNC as basketball foils and football that's actually manageable. And obviously that has nothing to do with real life.

[DC Muskie]

You would know better than anyone, though I'm very familiar with D.C. and the Georgetown area, but that would be some kind of stockpile; the money they would need to build a 10k arena on campus is virtually unimaginable. Almost as unimaginable as gaining the building permits to do it.

That was in jest really. Sorry, I just think they want to stockpile the money to pay off the huge amounts of money they will lose in ticket sales.

I have no idea where they would build one, but it's not like GW where the community is against them building anything new outside their parameters. I wouldn't think GTown would face the same obstacles. Maybe they would, who knows. They might have to end up playing more games at McDounough on campus.

[DC Muskie]

Kentucky makes a lot more sense from a competitive standpoint in the ACC with Duke and UNC as basketball foils and football that's actually manageable. And obviously that has nothing to do with real life.


Real life can be a bitch like that sometimes.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Ingram Smith ‏@IngramSmith
@TexasNole not saying it will happen, but watch VT w/ SEC & UVA w/ Big10. if the ACC can keep VA , IMO they can keep conf together

@dukebasketball: The ACC filed a lawsuit against Maryland in North Carolina court Monday http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/acc-files-lawsuit-against-maryland-monday-1 …

[DC Muskie]

A weakened BE with football still makes much more money than a conference with no football.

Until the next round of negotiations and they see no one in New Orleans watched one game.

Without a BE network all they can do is patch something together. Pretty damn funny.

[XU 87]

A weakened BE with football still makes much more money than a conference with no football.

Everybody keeps saying this. But I don't understand how a Conference USA-like football conference benefits the basketball teams. Can someone explain? With all of the Big East teams leaving, how much money are networks paying to show the Tulane v. East Carolina game?

[LA Muskie]

MHVER reported it. Don't know if that is true.

If Maryland sets the precedent in court that exit fees are not enforceable, that will have a huge ripple effect. You're a lawyer that makes sense right? Even if they negotiated it down, that will be a problem for others. I'm not off on that thinking am I?
Well, yes and no (typical lawyer answer, I know...). The problem is that context and venue are everything. With respect to Maryland, the ACC imposed the $50 million exit fee over Maryland's vote and objection. I don't know what the ACC by-laws say, but that seems pretty draconian to me. Typically someone can't spend $50 million of someone else's money, without their consent. Also, bear in mind that the decision will likely rest of the application of state law -- either Maryland state law or the law of the state under which the ACC is organized.

[LA Muskie]

A weakened BE with football still makes much more money than a conference with no football.
That may or may not be true. I just don't know. But regardless, down the road (fairly quickly in fact) Georgetown loses all relevance in basketball, at which point it is dead weight. Then what happens the next time conferences realign? They need to have some foresight. They don't sell the product these conferences sell. They never will. At some point, they have to accept that long-term they are best off with their peers.

[DC Muskie]

Everybody keeps saying this. But I don't understand how a Conference USA-like football conference benefits the basketball teams. Can someone explain? With all of the Big East teams leaving, how much money are networks paying to show the Tulane v. East Carolina game?

Potential due to television sets? That's the only thing I can come up with.

Nobody watches basketball unfortunately. If you can get one more tick on the football side, that's more important then what could happen on the basketball side. If not, the BE would have folded a long time ago.

[LA Muskie]

That was in jest really. Sorry, I just think they want to stockpile the money to pay off the huge amounts of money they will lose in ticket sales.

I have no idea where they would build one, but it's not like GW where the community is against them building anything new outside their parameters. I wouldn't think GTown would face the same obstacles. Maybe they would, who knows. They might have to end up playing more games at McDounough on campus.

If they were looking to stockpile exit fees, they wouldn't have voted yesterday to dissolve (which would have eliminated the fees altogether).

[DC Muskie]

Well, yes and no (typical lawyer answer, I know...). The problem is that context and venue are everything. With respect to Maryland, the ACC imposed the $50 million exit fee over Maryland's vote and objection. I don't know what the ACC by-laws say, but that seems pretty draconian to me. Typically someone can't spend $50 million of someone else's money, without their consent. Also, bear in mind that the decision will likely rest of the application of state law -- either Maryland state law or the law of the state under which the ACC is organized.

The ACC is suing Maryland in North Carolina court. Good points on that, it should be interesting.

[DC Muskie]

If they were looking to stockpile exit fees, they wouldn't have voted yesterday to dissolve (which would have eliminated the fees altogether).

That's why I'm trying to find out what the discussions were with NBC on an all bb conference TV package. Also, if they felt Maryland would win, it would be a moot point to try and stick it out. Who knows.

[Muskie]

I can't believe all of you want to talk about Georgetown this... Big East that... when the real story is Denver leaving the WAC (after one season) for the Summit League.

[xubrew]

AGAIN. The markets are defined by city, or more than one city. Markets overlap. The Cincinnati market includes Dayton. Dayton is already captured. Adding Dayon really amounts to adding nothing.

Facts are just facts.

"Market" is a generic term. It is not universally defined by anything. A neighborhood could be a market. An entire state could be a market.

The "ACC Market" is defined in its TV deal as any state that has an ACC team in it. I'm pretty sure the Big Ten defines it that way as well. If the Horizon League tried to define their media market the same way the ACC does in their TV deal, they would be laughed out of the room.

"Market," in and of itself, is as descriptive as the word "area." You have to specifically define what you're talking about. Yes, markets overlap. So do areas.

I don't want to say for certain, but I THINK ESPN defines markets based on cable providers in certain areas, and local channels. In other words, if the local news in one area is different than the local news of another area, than it is a different market. That wouild make Dayton a different market than Cincinnati, according to ESPN. So, from their perspective, adding Dayton would not amount to adding nothing.

[GoMuskies]

I can't believe all of you want to talk about Georgetown this... Big East that... when the real story is Denver leaving the WAC (after one season) for the Summit League.

That is interesting. One of my clients has a daughter that plays for Denver. I need to impress him with the speed with which I obtained this info.

[Muskie]

That is interesting. One of my clients has a daughter that plays for Denver. I need to impress him with the speed with which I obtained this info.
It likely means the WAC will dissolve. (additional cocktail trivia).

[XU 87]

Well, yes and no (typical lawyer answer, I know...). The problem is that context and venue are everything. With respect to Maryland, the ACC imposed the $50 million exit fee over Maryland's vote and objection. I don't know what the ACC by-laws say, but that seems pretty draconian to me. Typically someone can't spend $50 million of someone else's money, without their consent. Also, bear in mind that the decision will likely rest of the application of state law -- either Maryland state law or the law of the state under which the ACC is organized.

I suspect Maryland will argue that the $50 million is a penalty for leaving, and penalties are generally not enforceable under contract law if they have no relationship to a parties' actual damages. On the other hand, I suspect that the ACC will argue that the $50 million is a liquidated damage which is enforceable.

[Muskie]

I suspect Maryland will argue that the $50 million is a penalty for leaving, and penalties are generally not enforceable under contract law if they have no relationship to a parties' actual damages. On the other hand, I suspect that the ACC will argue that the $50 million is a liquidated damage which is enforceable.

I imagine that it will settle somewhere between 50 million and 0 with a check from Under Armour to cover the bill. Hypothetically of course.

[GoMuskies]

How many lawyers does it take to determine if an exit fee is enforceable?

More than 4.

[DC Muskie]

"Market" is a generic term. It is not universally defined by anything. A neighborhood could be a market. An entire state could be a market.

The "ACC Market" is defined in its TV deal as any state that has an ACC team in it. I'm pretty sure the Big Ten defines it that way as well. If the Horizon League tried to define their media market the same way the ACC does in their TV deal, they would be laughed out of the room.

"Market," in and of itself, is as descriptive as the word "area." You have to specifically define what you're talking about. Yes, markets overlap. So do areas.

I don't want to say for certain, but I THINK defines markets based on cable providers in certain areas, and local channels. In other words, if the local news in one area is different than the local news of another area, than it is a different market. That wouild make Dayton a different market than Cincinnati, according to ESPN. So, from their perspective, adding Dayton would not amount to adding nothing.

I told brew to write this.

Nice post.

The Big Ten Pac 12 and SEC have or will have cable networks. They are different than the A10 network. The A-10 can't look at Pennsylvania the same way that the Big 10 does. It's apples and oranges.

[LA Muskie]

I suspect Maryland will argue that the $50 million is a penalty for leaving, and penalties are generally not enforceable under contract law if they have no relationship to a parties' actual damages. On the other hand, I suspect that the ACC will argue that the $50 million is a liquidated damage which is enforceable.
I think you are right, with the additional wrinkle that Maryland also will argue that it never agreed to the $50 "exit fee" at all, and the ACC will argue that the by-laws permitted amendment by super-majority and Maryland could have left before the new fee went into effect if it did not want to be bound by the amended by-laws.

[DC Muskie]

I suspect Maryland will argue that the $50 million is a penalty for leaving, and penalties are generally not enforceable under contract law if they have no relationship to a parties' actual damages. On the other hand, I suspect that the ACC will argue that the $50 million is a liquidated damage which is enforceable.

In your view who wins that argument? I say Maryland should pay.

[LA Muskie]

How many lawyers does it take to determine if an exit fee is enforceable?

More than 4.
Probably about $10 million worth (cumulative for both sides), would be my guess.

[LA Muskie]

In your view who wins that argument? I say Maryland should pay.
No one wins. It settles -- probably right around halfway between the old exit fee and the new one. But only after spending tons of money on lawyers to get to where I just told you it would end up.

[xudash]

A weakened BE with football still makes much more money than a conference with no football.

Let's actually see if that becomes true with this bunch.

At that point, it will be left to certain individuals to define what is and is not "much more."

I'm now focused on gate receipts as much as the television money, especially for programs that rely upon NBA arenas. I think they're plotting a road to hell. If the glass is half full in that regard, at least it will be a short journey.

[chico]

I imagine that it will settle somewhere between 50 million and 0 with a check from Under Armour to cover the bill. Hypothetically of course.

After, of course, much discovery, depositions, motions, and other things that will keep the billable hours up. Merry Christmas to the firms where this lawsuit landed.

[DC Muskie]

So like $20 million. Gtown is taking a risky gamble thinking they could pocket some money on the next wave of defections.

[GoMuskies]

I can't believe all of you want to talk about Georgetown this... Big East that... when the real story is Denver leaving the WAC (after one season) for the Summit League.

Nice work. My guy didn't even know this yet. Delivering news like this is excellent client service!

[xubrew]

I suspect Maryland will argue that the $50 million is a penalty for leaving, and penalties are generally not enforceable under contract law if they have no relationship to a parties' actual damages. On the other hand, I suspect that the ACC will argue that the $50 million is a liquidated damage which is enforceable.

I think Maryland is going to argue that the $50 million exit fee was an arbitrary change. That wasn't the exit fee when they joined the league. It was not an exit fee that they approved of. Had they known such an exit fee was going to be implimented they never would have joined (which is a lie, but still plausible), and therefore, they should not have to pay it.

[LA Muskie]

At this point, calling the Big East the old Conference USA is unkind to the old Conference USA. I don't see how they get much (if anything) in television revenue when all the dust settles, unless there is a pot of money for ANY football on TV. Since no one watches Div III football on TV (even the national championship), I have to believe there is a point where the money stops flowing. And looking at the league the "Big East" likely will field, if it's not there I don't know where it is.

[GoMuskies]

Probably about $10 million worth (cumulative for both sides), would be my guess.

That's 10,000 billable hours for lawyers with an average billing rate of $1,000/hr. I think you're a bit high.

[xudash]

That's 10,000 billable hours for lawyers with an average billing rate of $1,000/hr. I think you're a bit high.

New York Office.

[Muskie]

New York Office.
If they are taking bids (and don't mind an attorney licensed in Indiana), I'll do it for $750,000.00 (up front of course). This offer expires in 10 seconds.
GO!

[danaandvictory]

At this point, calling the Big East the old Conference USA is unkind to the old Conference USA. I don't see how they get much (if anything) in television revenue when all the dust settles, unless there is a pot of money for ANY football on TV. Since no one watches Div III football on TV (even the national championship), I have to believe there is a point where the money stops flowing. And looking at the league the "Big East" likely will field, if it's not there I don't know where it is.

They would absolutely have to keep BSU and get BYU as well to make it at all interesting to the networks.

[XU 87]

In your view who wins that argument? I say Maryland should pay.

I was just discussing this with someone at work (who went to ND I might add). And I agree, Maryland probably pays, particularly if other schools leave. The argument will be, "As a result of Maryland leaving, we had several schools follow which has greatly damaged the conference."

I really don't know about LAMuskies' points about amending the by-laws. I suspect if enough agreed to it, then it's binding on Maryland, even though they voted against it. (Think Homeowner's Association rules).

But I think the most likely result, as noted above, is they settle.

[GoMuskies]

Even in New York there aren't that many guys billing $1,000/hr.

[LA Muskie]

That's 10,000 billable hours for lawyers with an average billing rate of $1,000/hr. I think you're a bit high.
I was being facetious. I tried to find a copy of the complaint to see who the ACC hired. If a NY firm is prosecuting the claim, the fees (and hours) will be very high. Still it wouldn't hit $10 million total absent a trial -- it's a contract dispute, so there's only so much discovery that can be relevant. But assuming both sides hire big firms, and assuming the immediately go into litigation (vs. settlement) mode, fees and expenses could run about $250k per side per month (a total of $1 million every 2 months and $6 million over the course of a year).

[XU 87]

If they are taking bids (and don't mind an attorney licensed in Indiana), I'll do it for $750,000.00 (up front of course). This offer expires in 10 seconds.
GO!

Note to University of Maryland- I'll do it for $700,000. (Those Indy lawyers are really expensive).

[GoMuskies]

I really don't know about LAMuskies' points about amending the by-laws. I suspect if enough agreed to it, then it's binding on Maryland, even though they voted against it. (Think Homeowner's Association rules).

Do you think the HOA members could force you to pay $100k to sell your house and move out of the hood?

[DC Muskie]

I was just discussing this with someone at work (who went to ND I might add). And I agree, Maryland probably pays, particularly if other schools leave. The argument will be, "As a result of Maryland leaving, we had several schools follow which has greatly damaged the conference."

I really don't know about LAMuskies' points about amending the by-laws. I suspect if enough agreed to it, then it's binding on Maryland, even though they voted against it. (Think Homeowner's Association rules).

But I think the most likely result, as noted above, is they settle.

So Maryland's liable for other schools action?

I would think a more important point was Maryland could have gotten out before the vote was taken. Possible argument?

[LA Muskie]

Even in New York there aren't that many guys billing $1,000/hr.
There aren't. But when you consider that there will likely be 4-6 timekeepers on each team billing -- often with several of them billing at the same time and on the same task (meetings, conference calls, depositions, etc.) -- the effective hourly rate will generally exceed $1,000/hr. Now that's more than 1 billable hour, but it adds up. Quickly. I assure you (as I'm about to head to a depo prep session that will involve 4 lawyers).

[DC Muskie]

They would absolutely have to keep BSU and get BYU as well to make it at all interesting to the networks.

BYU turned the BE down according to Twitter. And if it's on twitter it's true.

[chico]

Even in New York there aren't that many guys billing $1,000/hr.

Probably some women that can bill that much, but of course they aren't providing services that are legal.

[waggy]

Jacking up exit fees was obviously a protectionist action during a period of great change in the industry.

[Muskie]

BYU turned the BE down according to Twitter. And if it's on twitter it's true.

Xavierhoops.com has declined an invitation to join the Big East. They were very interested in our "golf" program in terms of non-revenue sports.

[xudash]

Xavierhoops.com has declined an invitation to join the Big East. They were very interested in our "golf" program in terms of non-revenue sports.

they should be interested in it.

[RealDeal]

So what should Xavier do if the A-10 meets to jack up exit fees tomorrow? That would get interesting.

[muskiefan82]

So Maryland's liable for other schools action?

I would think a more important point was Maryland could have gotten out before the vote was taken. Possible argument?

Could then Maryland argue that they were forced to make a decision between an exit fee they are against or leaving the conference and losing all of their credits? It seems they could argue they were in an impossible position, agree to pay an amount between the old and the new exit fee and then ask for their credits they will lose to be taken off that amount as well.

[xudash]

So what should Xavier do if the A-10 meets to jack up exit fees tomorrow? That would get interesting.

Leave.

[XU 87]

Do you think the HOA members could force you to pay $100k to sell your house and move out of the hood?

No, but they can adopt certain rules that some may not like and would rather not abide by, but still are legally required to.

[XU 87]

So Maryland's liable for other schools action?

I would think a more important point was Maryland could have gotten out before the vote was taken. Possible argument?

I didn't really mean it in that context. I meant in the context of showing how the $50 million exit fee reasonably measures the ACC's damages as a result of the direct, and indirect, consequences of Maryland leaving.

As for your second argument, I like it. Maryland, if you didn't want to abide by it, you should have left sooner.

[GoMuskies]

No, but they can adopt certain rules that some may like and would rather not abide by.

Agree. My only point is that there are limits as to what the rest of the group can enforce on you. I have no idea where that line is in either the HOA or college football buyout context.

[DC Muskie]

I didn't really mean it in that context. I meant in the context of showing how the $50 million exit fee reasonably measures the ACC's damages as a result of the direct, and indirect, consequences of Maryland leaving.

Gotcha. Makes sense.

[chico]

This has to settle. I don't think either side wants a court to decide this and set a precedent. There's just too much money at stake.

[muskienick]

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes37
A weakened BE with football still makes much more money than a conference with no football.

I am not convinced that the word, 'much,' accurately belongs in the above atatement.

The real crux of the matter is: when will the non-FBS Big East schools get to the point where they begin to understand that their FBS Conference mates are actually reducing their ability to blacken their bottom lines? The likelihood is that UofL and UConn will almost certainly follow Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, and ND in jumping from the SS Big East. UC would jump at the chance as well in a NY second. That would leave the 7 traditional BB schools with only Temple and Memphis as respected BB schools that play FBS football. If they were to be able to function together as a 9-member BB Conference, that would be fine. Unfortunately, they will have a bevy of pretty pathetic BB schools that fill out the Big East's FBS Conference (South Florida, Houston, SMU, and Central Florida). I forget if Tulane is coming in for all sports, but if it does, add them to the list. Furthermore, How much more of the total cash pie will the new FB-only schools drain away from the Big East's cash crop? (Boise, ECU, S.D. State, and Navy)?

When will the non-FBS Big East schools get to the point where they understand they are still the ugly step-sisters of their FBS FB Conference Mates? And will they ever get tired of continually being out-voted when it comes to issues that could actually benefit them?

It would seem to me that they could actually be a bit better off in a Conference that would include themselves + members like Xavier, VCU (or Richmond), SLU, Butler, and Creighton to make a solid 9-, 10- or 12-member Conference? (4 of those five are frequent invitees to the NCAA Tourney and 4 among themselves could usually expect invites as well.) That would be a potential of 8 invitees to the NCAA Tourney on a fairly regular basis --- a very lucrative haul to split among only 12 members. How often do we read about Houston, SMU, So. Florida, Tulane, and Central Florida being in contention to add NCAA Tourney money to their respective conferences? And how much less will the eventual Big East members realize from their NCAA Tourney efforts if they also have to share some of that income with their FB-only pals from Navy, Boise, ECU, and San Diego State? Has anybody done that math?

And is there a way of measuring how much it might be worth to have the feeling of permanence and stability? How much is the good feeling worth of not having to look over your back when the next issues are the 4 x 18 and 4 x 20 configurations and realizing that your crappy situation will soon be even worse?

[paulxu]

Why is ACC suing Maryland now? What is their cause of action?

Have they already sent Maryland a bill for $50 million for exiting the conference, it was due withing 10 days, and they are past due?

They aren't officially gone yet I don't think. What if they changed their mind on the Big10?
Nobody has suffered any harm up to this point.

[GoMuskies]

From reading a few other boards today, I think Tulane/ECU is where this round of conference realignment jumped the shark. Serious realignment fatigue out there right now.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes37
A weakened BE with football still makes much more money than a conference with no football.

I am not convinced that the word, 'much,' accurately belongs in the above atatement.



Andy Glockner ‏@AndyGlockner
The fact that the Big East very likely will land a 9-figure TV deal going forward may be the biggest scam in the realignment fiasco.

Andy Glockner ‏@AndyGlockner
And the byproduct is that the bball-only schools remain stuck, b/c the new BE deal will make them more than any bball-only conf deal.




That is ridiculous but shows the relevance of football over basketball...even bad football

[GoMuskies]

even bad football

Wait, I need to find out if Louisville is going to remain in the New Big East to decide whether to agree or start arguing.

[SM#24]

Tulane, really ?
If someone told me at the beginning of the day that Tulane was going to either (1) join the BE in all sports or (2) downgrade football to non-scholarship, I would have bet on #2.

[LA Muskie]

Andy Glockner ‏@AndyGlockner
The fact that the Big East very likely will land a 9-figure TV deal going forward may be the biggest scam in the realignment fiasco.

Andy Glockner ‏@AndyGlockner
And the byproduct is that the bball-only schools remain stuck, b/c the new BE deal will make them more than any bball-only conf deal.




That is ridiculous but shows the relevance of football over basketball...even bad football
I will believe that when I see it. But I agree that if they can land a TV deal with real money, it will be difficult for the BE 7 Hoops schools to leave (although I still think that's a short-sighted decision on their part).

[LA Muskie]

Why is ACC suing Maryland now? What is their cause of action?

Have they already sent Maryland a bill for $50 million for exiting the conference, it was due withing 10 days, and they are past due?

They aren't officially gone yet I don't think. What if they changed their mind on the Big10?
Nobody has suffered any harm up to this point.
I just realized something I hadn't processed before: Maryland is a state school. It almost certainly is entitled to sovereign immunity. I don't think a North Carolina court can enter a money judgment in favor of the ACC against the State of Maryland without Maryland's consent (which I can't fathom it would grant unless it is part of the ACC By-Laws).

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

@KevinMcNamara33: Mike Aresco: "We're not finished. We have other plans for expansion...could go to 16 in football"


Oh boy

[Muskie]

I just realized something I hadn't processed before: Maryland is a state school. It almost certainly is entitled to sovereign immunity. I don't think a North Carolina court can enter a money judgment in favor of the ACC against the State of Maryland without Maryland's consent (which I can't fathom it would grant unless it is part of the ACC By-Laws).

My head just exploded. I haven't contemplated that since law school. Bravo.

[_LH]

I really want XU to be in a bball only conference with Georgetown, Villanova and Marquette. I would even be okay with St. John's. I don't care to be in with Providence, Seton Hall or DePaul.

I would hope XU is thinking about other options besides waiting for the BE to split. I would hope they would think about taking the best of the current A10 and the best of the bbball on BE to form a new league.

On a side note, some schools really need to re-think having D1 football.

[XU 87]

I just realized something I hadn't processed before: Maryland is a state school. It almost certainly is entitled to sovereign immunity. I don't think a North Carolina court can enter a money judgment in favor of the ACC against the State of Maryland without Maryland's consent (which I can't fathom it would grant unless it is part of the ACC By-Laws).

A Maryland court might recognize this, but will a North Carolina court? And is there sovereign immunity for breach of contract claims? I wouldn't think so.

[MHettel]

Oh and when you are done talking to ESPN, you can call the A-10 who apparently also doesn't understand that Dayton is not a separate market.

From their press release last month announcing their TV deal:

The A-10 is in seven of the top 25 media markets, including four of the top 10. Beginning in 2013-14, all 14 conference members will be in the top 65 media markets in the country and the Atlantic 10 media footprint will reach over 33 million television households, which is approximately 33 percent of the US television market.

All 14 teams are in the top 65 media markets? How is that? Why didn't they stop at 58 with Richmond? Why did they go to 65? Wait...Dayton is at 64. That's strange. Help me out here please!

But the facts are the facts. the Cincinnati media market is inclusive of Dayton. You can argue the standalone attributes of the Dayton media market allday long, and I'll continue to point out that you entirely miss the mark. The question is not whether Dayton as a stand alone market has value, but rather what is the incremental value of adding Dayton to a COLLECTION of MARKETS which already includes Cincinnati. The incrmental value of adding Omaha is greater than adding overlapping Dayton. Those are just facts.

With that said, who KNOWS what additional criteria would be used to select the final membership of some theoretical conference, but when it comes down to a situation where XU is already in the fold, Creighton trumps Dayton in terms of media market value.

I'm sure you'll find a way to omit, or twist or just flat out ignore the blunt logic which has been presented to you over and over. Sit, back, enjoy a Twinkie and plot your next move on how to waste more of your workday (oh, you are in DC---nevermind) by incessantly arguing with everyone about everything.

[XU 87]

But the facts are the facts. the Cincinnati media market is inclusive of Dayton.

I don't think that's correct. Dayton is considered a different media market than Cincinnati. We also have separate network tv stations, although I don't know if that means anything.

[DC Muskie]

But the facts are the facts. the Cincinnati media market is inclusive of Dayton. You can argue the standalone attributes of the Dayton media market allday long, and I'll continue to point out that you entirely miss the mark. The question is not whether Dayton as a stand alone market has value, but rather what is the incremental value of adding Dayton to a COLLECTION of MARKETS which already includes Cincinnati. The incrmental value of adding Omaha is greater than adding overlapping Dayton. Those are just facts.

With that said, who KNOWS what additional criteria would be used to select the final membership of some theoretical conference, but when it comes down to a situation where XU is already in the fold, Creighton trumps Dayton in terms of media market value.

I'm sure you'll find a way to omit, or twist or just flat out ignore the blunt logic which has been presented to you over and over. Sit, back, enjoy a Twinkie and plot your next move on how to waste more of your workday (oh, you are in DC---nevermind) by incessantly arguing with everyone about everything.

Man it really pisses you off knowing that I have been spot on correct in this entire argument.

I don't know what else to say. It's like arguing with a Muppet. Maybe you are a Muppet, I have no idea. You think the basketball coaches of the SEC were wrong, that ESPN is wrong, that the A10 is wrong. You put out a link to try and prove your point, but even that link shows that Dayton is a separate market. Everyone is wrong but you.

Divisions? They have them in pro sports!
Media markets? Dayton is a part of Cincinnati!
Independent in basketball? Why not?!
DC twists my arguments around? Eat a Twinkie!

Got anything else? Or are we done? Because you keep repeating yourself and frankly, it's boring. I'm home sick from work, and reading your drivel is not making me feel better. I have other imaginary people who I'm arguing with on this board that I need to get back to.

[xudash]

Andy Glockner ‏@AndyGlockner
The fact that the Big East very likely will land a 9-figure TV deal going forward may be the biggest scam in the realignment fiasco.

Andy Glockner ‏@AndyGlockner
And the byproduct is that the bball-only schools remain stuck, b/c the new BE deal will make them more than any bball-only conf deal.




That is ridiculous but shows the relevance of football over basketball...even bad football

9 FIGURES!

HA!! NFW that happens. That would be suicide on the part of the network(s) delivering it. The advertising revenue potential for that league, post UConn and UL will be seriously reduced. It isn't great now, let alone when those two go walking out the door, after having watched Rutgers walk out.

Seriously, if this happens, it never was about the composition of the league, because it will have been about the desperation of the networks to obtain content. Then, assuming it happens, will their models hold up, or will they lose their shirts.

Bubble market baby.