Improving the Program

[Muskie]

I don't pretend to know the relative health of the Women's program, but what are some of the ways we can get more fans involved? What other ways of improving the program?

I've been a proponent of doing a double header with the Women's team playing a game on Saturday Afternoon followed by the Men's game that night.
__________________

[GuyFawkes38]

Easy question.

More fireworks.

The kids love fireworks.

[Muskie]

Easy question.

More fireworks.

The kids love fireworks.

Gunpowder plot eh?

I don't know if more gimmicks are the answer. I was never a fan of Women's College Ball until my friend's sister starting playing in high school. She now plays for another Division I school, and I absolutely enjoy watching those games. I like the Women's game for different reasons than the men's game. But fundamentally, the game is the same. Both Men and Women are putting an orange ball through an orange hoop.

[xuwin]

Bobbleheads every game. Kids will go anywhere to get a bobblehead no matter who it is. :)

[xu_fan]

The sad thing is I don't know that there is a way. I have tried for years to get people to come with me to games. I've asked co-workers, fellow students, family, etc and nobody ever wants to come! I've even offered to pay for their ticket at times. There is this pre-concieved notion that women's sports are "stupid"/"not sports" ( just some of the things I hear). Most of the time if I was actually able to get a friend through the door they've enjoyed themselves and have come back from time to time.

I wish I had a better answer to this question, but I dont. Literally, when I talk about it at work people laugh at me and say, "who watches women's basketball" blah blah blah blah blah... I try to explain how enjoyable it is but it never works. Personally, I am so entertained by it, its crazy. I am so freakin passionate about it that its hard to understand why people wouldn't be. I just don't know how to spread the word in a productive way.

:(

[BBC 08]

I try and watch Xavier whenever they are on national TV but it's such a boring game of ball (women's basketball as a whole, not just Xavier) that I can't help but change the channel.

[spongebob]

I try and watch Xavier whenever they are on national TV but it's such a boring game of ball (women's basketball as a whole, not just Xavier) that I can't help but change the channel.

This is the precise answer to the originally posed question imo. Change this perception, and you have your golden goose. How to do it, now that's the million dollar question. It is obvious that the "build it they will come" thing i.e. put a winning product on the floor, play an exciting and challenging non-con, win conference championships, go to the tourney, etal hasn't been enough.

[Benxman]

Gunpowder plot eh?

But fundamentally, the game is the same. Both Men and Women are putting an orange ball through an orange hoop.

Truly, the fact that they are both putting an orang ball throuigh an orange hoop, is about the only similarity between the men and women's games.

The women play at a much slower pace and a much lesser athletic ability. They lack the quickness and power that make the men's game so scintilating. Frankly, l love to watch women swim and play tennis, but basketball? Not so much.

Just sayin'.

GO MUSKIES!

:logo:

[STL_XUfan]

This is the precise answer to the originally posed question imo. Change this perception, and you have your golden goose. How to do it, now that's the million dollar question. It is obvious that the "build it they will come" thing i.e. put a winning product on the floor, play an exciting and challenging non-con, win conference championships, go to the tourney, etal hasn't been enough.

There was an article a few years ago that suggested part of the perception issue that women's basketball programs have is the ticket pricing. By placing the ticket prices so much lower than males sports it institutionalizes the perception that women's sports are worth less and therefore it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I don't necessarily agree with it, also I don't think a change this late in the game can really effect the perception much, but it is an interesting thought.

Something that could be interesting to do is make the arena artificially smaller. Maybe drop curtains on the upper deck so it doesn't feel as empty and encourages people to sit closer to the floor. The game would be more exciting with 5k fans packed in the lower bowl, than having 5k fans and you are still looking at 5k empty seats on the second level. Also the curtains could help increase noise in the arena. Finally, it would bring the supply of the tickets a little bit closer to demand.

[xu_fan]

Truly, the fact that they are both putting an orang ball throuigh an orange hoop, is about the only similarity between the men and women's games.

The women play at a much slower pace and a much lesser athletic ability. They lack the quickness and power that make the men's game so scintilating. Frankly, l love to watch women swim and play tennis, but basketball? Not so much.

Just sayin'.

GO MUSKIES!

:logo:


It's so hard for me to even wrap my mind around this because I disagree so much. I do think the game is a little slower, but it never has been an issue for me being totally entertained! It is different for sure but a good different imo...

[XU-PA]

xufan,,,,spongbob. You 2 have hit the nail.

BBC08. no offense to you personally because many people feel the same way, but that feeling being so rampant out there is what makes women in sport feel like second class citizens.

Xavier put a top class product on the floor over the last few years. Complete domination of the conference, into the tourney year after year, bona fide super star players on the floor. Yet they flirt with the 2500 mark in home attendance.
I really feel there's a long standing attitude that womens sport is inferior.
I differ from others in that I think the main stream media feeds that attitude by all but ignoring the teams.
In some areas, like tennessee and connecticut the media covers the teams like a blanket. What came first, the success or the coverage? In our case in Cincinnati the success came, but the coverage never materialized. But that's no different than most other places around the country. Here in Maine one of our colleges got into the D-3 womens lacrosse title game and they were ignored, just brief mention in reporting the score of the game.

I think it has to start at home, in that Xavier alums should come out and support this team, these women are playing for Xavier just like the men are, and despite what many people think, it is an exciting game. Even the students don't really support the team.

I for one will always be there, although living 1000 miles frm Cintas makes it tough to see more than a couple games a year. My support will be through listening to Schmaltzy's broadcast on the web and watching the TV broadcast whenever I can, I'll also pick up those internet broadcasts whenever I can, even if it does cost a few bucks. I support women's basketball up though, besides being the announcer for one fo the states top college teams, I attended about 2 dozen games last season.

[XU-PA]

Just a small note to add, separately since most of you won't read my long rant.
If you really love hoops, embrace the game at all levels. I really learned to love the game when my daughter started playing. I can watch jr high, high school, any level of college ball, even pick up games . Boys, girls, men women, even the seniors. I love it.
And my love for the game has grown even bigger, I am in the midst of certifying to referee at the high school level. Nothing more fun than reffing back to back middle school games!

If you really love the game, get involved in it and you'll start to see that it is exciting at any level!

[xu_fan]

Just a small note to add, separately since most of you won't read my long rant.
If you really love hoops, embrace the game at all levels. I really learned to love the game when my daughter started playing. I can watch jr high, high school, any level of college ball, even pick up games . Boys, girls, men women, even the seniors. I love it.
And my love for the game has grown even bigger, I am in the midst of certifying to referee at the high school level. Nothing more fun than reffing back to back middle school games!

If you really love the game, get involved in it and you'll start to see that it is exciting at any level!


This is exactly how I feel... The more you are connected to the game of basketball the more you appreciate all levels. I'm still a young guy (24), but when I started going to women's games 12 years ago or so I never thought I would be such a regular and travel the country like I have to support the Xavier WOMEN! I just started looking up articles, buying season tickets, traveling, looking up recruiting stuff, etc... just like I did for the men. Before too long I was hooked. I can watch a women's basketball game at 2:30am Hampton vs Delaware St replay on ESPNU. I can watch the high school games they play on ESPN from time to time. I can watch all basketball and just love it. I guess that's why I don't understand why other people can't do the same. Im not even an alumni but I do believe that is where it has to START. If you media knew that people cared then they would come out and do more coverage, and I agree with XU-PA. That has to start with all of us.

[xu_fan]

Something that could be interesting to do is make the arena artificially smaller. Maybe drop curtains on the upper deck so it doesn't feel as empty and encourages people to sit closer to the floor. The game would be more exciting with 5k fans packed in the lower bowl, than having 5k fans and you are still looking at 5k empty seats on the second level. Also the curtains could help increase noise in the arena. Finally, it would bring the supply of the tickets a little bit closer to demand.

Interesting idea, BUT the A-10 tourney was in Char a few years ago and they have that with Halton Arena. A big curtain comes down and makes the facility look a lot smaller. Personally, I didn't really like it, but thats just me. Unfortunately, the arena was still VERY empty looking. That includes the 49er's winning the tourney that year. Pretty sad.

BUT if it brought 5,000 people in the seats I'd be okay with that in a second!

[blobfan]

...I've been a proponent of doing a double header with the Women's team playing a game on Saturday Afternoon followed by the Men's game that night.
__________________
They've done those a couple of times and people just don't stay. It's also a crap-ton of work for the people working their. They'd have to incur overtime costs or work their people even harder.

The sad thing is I don't know that there is a way. I have tried for years to get people to come with me to games. I've asked co-workers, fellow students, family, etc and nobody ever wants to come! I've even offered to pay for their ticket at times. There is this pre-concieved notion that women's sports are "stupid"/"not sports" ( just some of the things I hear). Most of the time if I was actually able to get a friend through the door they've enjoyed themselves and have come back from time to time.

I wish I had a better answer to this question, but I dont. Literally, when I talk about it at work people laugh at me and say, "who watches women's basketball" blah blah blah blah blah... I try to explain how enjoyable it is but it never works. Personally, I am so entertained by it, its crazy. I am so freakin passionate about it that its hard to understand why people wouldn't be. I just don't know how to spread the word in a productive way.

:(
I think the ability to get good seats at a low price is a big selling point. I love sitting 5 rows back center court. I love that I can bring my friend's toddler and the odds of her catching a ball or getting the give-away for the day are 90%.

We just have to hit critical mass with attendance. People just don't expect the womens games to have the exciting environment that the men do, and they are right. It's quieter and there are fewer activities during breaks. Once people start showing up the sponsors will start springing for those activities like they do with the men. We need to keep talking to people and bringing them to games until we get there.

[drudy23]

It's so hard for me to even wrap my mind around this because I disagree so much. I do think the game is a little slower, but it never has been an issue for me being totally entertained! It is different for sure but a good different imo...

What do you disagree with? The game is definitely slower, women are less powerful and athletic (as it compares to male and female college basketball players), the ball is still orange, and the rim is still orange. What exactly did he say that isn't true?

You may enjoy it...but what he said isn't wrong.

[wkrq59]

It is easy to say but the one overall factor in increasing attendance at women's games has been one word--WIN.
There are two factors--coaching and style of play--that have put Connecticut, Tennessee, Texas, Baylor, Rutgers, Duke, North Carolina, Notre Dame , Purdue, Georgia, Louisiana Tech and Stanford on the map as programs that draw big crowds despite having to compete with men's programs which have been hugely successful. With the exception of Rutgers, the men's programs have been of championship calibre.
Gino Aureama, Pat Summit, Gail Gestencours, Kim Mulcahey, Vivian Stringer, Andy Landers and Tara Van derVeer are all either Hall of Fame college coaches or soon will be there.
Toss in the fact that winning and Hall of Fame coaching draw fantastic players such as Maya Moore, Diana Taurasi and the legion of stars at Connecticut, far too many at Tennessee to recount and Griner at Baylor, are just a few.
Bottom line, it takes time. Amber Harris and Tahisa Phillips and their supporting cast certainly were of the level of players previously mentioned, but the style of play was not on a par with the aforementioned. Yeah, Xavier had Stanford on the ropes and lost for a number of reasons including missed layups.
There is no magic formula. I know it isn't popular but I think there as something missing in Xavier Women's basketball the past tree or four years. I really can't put my finger on it, but there seemed to be a lack of pizzaz.
But that is far from the answer. I am equally sure that the highly successful programs I mentioned above each had to start out in obscurity where the only people in the stands were parents and coerced boy friends of players friends.
As far as the men's and women's differences, it's comparing apples to oranges. Women dunking is no longer a novelty. In so many ways, the women's game is more fun to watch because there is less jamming and to a degree, less physical play. There is also more team play and less individualism. And yes, there is more defense. I don't think having mens and womens doubleheaders will be the answer. If you put the women's game first, you're going to have people showing up for the men's game and very small crowds for the women. If you have the women play after the men, the majority will leave when the men's game is over. The MAC tried doubleheaders with men and women traveling in the same bus. It didn't work. They still play some league games that way, but the Joby Wright Miami bus ride of a few years back made that a bad idea.
A few years ago when the women's Final Four was in town, the number of women's programs that were reall good and competitive were few and far between. Today, everyix conference has at least two, sometimes three really good teams and all the other conferences have competitive nits. Look at the Big Least, Connecticut, Rutgers, Louisv[I]lle can play with any league. Colorado, Texas, Texas Tech, and Baylor are all top draer. North Carolina, Duke headline the ACC, Georgia, Florida, Kentucky at times, LSU, Alabama and Auburn have been strong. The West Coast is the same even though Stanford has dominated.
There is no easy solution except winning, which solves most problems.

[xu_fan]

What do you disagree with? The game is definitely slower, women are less powerful and athletic (as it compares to male and female college basketball players), the ball is still orange, and the rim is still orange. What exactly did he say that isn't true?

You may enjoy it...but what he said isn't wrong.

" Frankly, l love to watch women swim and play tennis, but basketball? Not so much."

I guess this is what I was talking about. I just disagree. I think it is just as exciting as men's basketball. It's really that simple. I watch men's and women's basketball all the time and there are differences but i don't see it as night and day as some of you all do.

[drudy23]

" Frankly, l love to watch women swim and play tennis, but basketball? Not so much."

I guess this is what I was talking about. I just disagree. I think it is just as exciting as men's basketball. It's really that simple. I watch men's and women's basketball all the time and there are differences but i don't see it as night and day as some of you all do.

And that's OK...you can continue to go and enjoy.

[X-band '01]

They don't do doubleheaders in a true sense at Xavier - it's logistically impossible when you factor in regular attendance for the men (usually about 95-100% capacity) plus the season ticket base for the women (about 1000-1500). They'll clear the arena out and do a day-night doubleheader for both teams when necessary.

I'd like to think that winning in and of itself will draw fans out, but it doesn't do it alone. McGuff when he was here would schedule some BCS conference teams but rarely would you get a real name team like Georgia or Maryland to come to Cintas. At this point, I don't know if Duke and Stanford are committed to coming in 2011-12; I could see those games getting a few hundred fans that wouldn't normally come to a women's game, but no more.

I don't think it's conference affiliation - UC plays in the Big East (which I do think is now the premier conference in women's hoops) and they can't draw jack because they refuse to commit to that program whatsoever. The Xavier brass does want women's hoops to succeed, but we're a long way off from seeing the program becoming self-sustaining (if ever).

[xuwin]

They don't do doubleheaders in a true sense at Xavier - it's logistically impossible when you factor in regular attendance for the men (usually about 95-100% capacity) plus the season ticket base for the women (about 1000-1500). They'll clear the arena out and do a day-night doubleheader for both teams when necessary.

I'd like to think that winning in and of itself will draw fans out, but it doesn't do it alone. McGuff when he was here would schedule some BCS conference teams but rarely would you get a real name team like Georgia or Maryland to come to Cintas. At this point, I don't know if Duke and Stanford are committed to coming in 2011-12; I could see those games getting a few hundred fans that wouldn't normally come to a women's game, but no more.

I don't think it's conference affiliation - UC plays in the Big East (which I do think is now the premier conference in women's hoops) and they can't draw jack because they refuse to commit to that program whatsoever. The Xavier brass does want women's hoops to succeed, but we're a long way off from seeing the program becoming self-sustaining (if ever).

They brought USC to the Cintas this year and drew 1600 fans. I was there and couldn't believe the turnout.

[Muskie]

I for one will always be there, although living 1000 miles frm Cintas makes it tough to see more than a couple games a year. My support will be through listening to Schmaltzy's broadcast on the web and watching the TV broadcast whenever I can, I'll also pick up those internet broadcasts whenever I can, even if it does cost a few bucks. I support women's basketball up though, besides being the announcer for one fo the states top college teams, I attended about 2 dozen games last season.

The travel is my major hurdle. It's hard making the commitment when I already take time away from work to go to the Men's Games. I could be better about watching online or tv though. Perhaps I should look into that.

How much do Women's Season Tickets cost?

[94GRAD]

The travel is my major hurdle. It's hard making the commitment when I already take time away from work to go to the Men's Games. I could be better about watching online or tv though. Perhaps I should look into that.

How much do Women's Season Tickets cost?

As little as $50

[X-band '01]

They brought USC to the Cintas this year and drew 1600 fans. I was there and couldn't believe the turnout.

USC may have been big when they had Cheryl Miller in the mid-80s, but they're no longer a blue-blood in the women's game like I mentioned. Even traditionally strong schools like Louisiana Tech and Old Dominion have faded away.

[GuyFawkes38]

Just a small note to add, separately since most of you won't read my long rant.
If you really love hoops, embrace the game at all levels. I really learned to love the game when my daughter started playing. I can watch jr high, high school, any level of college ball, even pick up games . Boys, girls, men women, even the seniors. I love it.
And my love for the game has grown even bigger, I am in the midst of certifying to referee at the high school level. Nothing more fun than reffing back to back middle school games!

If you really love the game, get involved in it and you'll start to see that it is exciting at any level!

I concur. I just love bball.

I love to watch the NBA, WNBA, college, foreign. I caught a D league game on tv a couple years ago and watch it.

Basketball is an awesome game. I can't get enough of it.

[Muskie]

As little as $50

I'm trying to decide if I should buy them to support the program (even though I likely won't use 80% of the tickets). I could always donate them to the Boys/Girls club.

I think we need actual people in the seats... not just money pumped into the program.

[bleedXblue]

Same reason why all other female sports (amatuer or professional) get less attendance.

When you have the option of watching more athletic, bigger, faster, stronger players in the male athlete, the time and money are going to be spent there.

The only female sporting event I would even consider watching is professional golf. They are damn good and some are easy on the eyes.....Natalie Gulbis.

[Muskie]

Same reason why all other female sports (amatuer or professional) get less attendance.

When you have the option of watching more athletic, bigger, faster, stronger players in the male athlete, the time and money are going to be spent there.

The only female sporting event I would even consider watching is professional golf. They are damn good and some are easy on the eyes.....Natalie Gulbis.

athletic, bigger, faster, and stronger players don't in my mind necessarily make a better game of basketball. But I'm not a fan of highlight reel dunks every time down the floor either.

[XU-PA]

The Xavier brass does want women's hoops to succeed, but we're a long way off from seeing the program becoming self-sustaining (if ever).

They really do want the women's program to succeed. I was involved with the program a few years back and was in on some of the marketing stuff, they were running the program just like the men's with real marketing efforts, similar stuff during the halftime and timeouts.

As far as being self sustaining, that right now is not a realistic goal, and I suspect XU is fully aware of that. Did you know that even UConn's WBB is not a self sustaining program?

Muskie, I would urge you to become a season ticket holder. Take friends with you, if you have to miss a game give the tickets to a co worker with kids. I think that once people see the product the XU puts on the floor they will become fans, it's just a matter of getting over the tired old "men are better" attitude. That is an insult to the effort these players put forth in the name of XU. I would think that XU alums would be very happy to pay just a couple bucks for the opportunity of quality entertainment and the chance to exhibit pride in the Alma Mater!

[XU-PA]

I concur. I just love bball.

I love to watch the NBA, WNBA, college, foreign. I caught a D league game on tv a couple years ago and watch it.

Basketball is an awesome game. I can't get enough of it.

I've gone to D-league games. We have a team here in Maine. It's run under the Celtics, and was coached by Ainge's son (who was point guard at BYU when XU beat em in the NCAA in 07!)
It's a very exciting product. And who would have thought Maine would turn out for the games, but it's been hosting sellouts for 2 years!
It's not near the product you see on the floor in an NBA game, but it appears to me they do it with some instilled "home town team" pride.
However they do it, it does seem to work.

[blobfan]

athletic, bigger, faster, and stronger players don't in my mind necessarily make a better game of basketball. But I'm not a fan of highlight reel dunks every time down the floor either.

I'm with you Muskie. I like a little finesse in my sports, which is in large part why I don't follow the NBA.

If you go to a women's game expecting it to be like the men, you are going to be disappointed. But if you like basketball, take the time to go to a couple games, get to know the players a little, and see if it offers you something different than the men. It's good entertainment.

[xuwin]

Same reason why all other female sports (amatuer or professional) get less attendance.

When you have the option of watching more athletic, bigger, faster, stronger players in the male athlete, the time and money are going to be spent there.

The only female sporting event I would even consider watching is professional golf. They are damn good and some are easy on the eyes.....Natalie Gulbis.

What's wrong with women's tennis and beach volleyball? :)

[Muskie]

They really do want the women's program to succeed. I was involved with the program a few years back and was in on some of the marketing stuff, they were running the program just like the men's with real marketing efforts, similar stuff during the halftime and timeouts.

As far as being self sustaining, that right now is not a realistic goal, and I suspect XU is fully aware of that. Did you know that even UConn's WBB is not a self sustaining program?

Muskie, I would urge you to become a season ticket holder. Take friends with you, if you have to miss a game give the tickets to a co worker with kids. I think that once people see the product the XU puts on the floor they will become fans, it's just a matter of getting over the tired old "men are better" attitude. That is an insult to the effort these players put forth in the name of XU. I would think that XU alums would be very happy to pay just a couple bucks for the opportunity of quality entertainment and the chance to exhibit pride in the Alma Mater!

I'm with you on supporting X. I'm just face with the possibility that I won't use more than one game's worth of tickets (I live in Indy).

[Muskie]

I'm with you Muskie. I like a little finesse in my sports, which is in large part why I don't follow the NBA.

If you go to a women's game expecting it to be like the men, you are going to be disappointed. But if you like basketball, take the time to go to a couple games, get to know the players a little, and see if it offers you something different than the men. It's good entertainment.

I definitely didn't give the Women's game much of a chance till a Friend's sister starting playing H.S. ball (she played with Brian Thornton's sisters). Anyway, She's plays at a MAC school, and I try to catch her games. I started watching a little more of X's team over the past two years as well.

It's a different game... but that doesn't make it bad.

[XU-PA]

It's a different game... but that doesn't make it bad.

Exactly, and what blobfan said
"If you go to a women's game expecting it to be like the men, you are going to be disappointed."

So many "fans' of basketball are happiest just to watch the end of a game, or the dunk highlights on ESPN. Those fans I think are the same who feel women just don't play the same game as men do. I take my basketball seriously, and I use it as a great social event. Whether I'm at a high school, D-3 or Xavier game, part of the fun is interacting with fellow fans and foes.

Perhaps that's the way to work on building attendance. XU has tried marketing, they've had stars there and they've had winning teams, that has not worked and the winning goes back to around 2000.

The only other thing I see when I look at attendance levels across the country, many of the smaller schools that have high attendance levels, the major thing they seem to do differently is recruit in their local area. Where you see teams like Xavier and others in the top 20 with one local on a team of players from around the country, the smaller schools seem to fill the gyms with fans watching players who were local and state stars. Kind of limits your ability to recruit top players if you only recruit within 100 miles, but if you want to fill the seats that seems to be one way to do it.