How to Die in Oregon

[golfitup]

Anybody else watch this? I thought it was very moving. Made me cry actually.

[ReturnOfTheMack]

Watched it. That was some powerful shit. Watching Cody's battle and decision to excercise her legal right to death with dignity was about as agonizing and moving television as I'd ever seen.

[GuyFawkes38]

Watched it. That was some powerful shit. Watching Cody's battle and decision to excercise her legal right to death with dignity was about as agonizing and moving television as I'd ever seen.

I caught a trailer for it.

Assisted suicide creeps me out.

I just don't get the "dignity" aspect of it. Letting an illness overcome you seems like a much more dignified way to die than killing yourself.

[waggy]

Some guy hung himself from the highway overpass out here. Right in the middle of town. Battled some illness for a long time. Lots of pain. Had enough. Public display.

No, I have not seen this movie.

[Ledgewood]

I caught a trailer for it.

Assisted suicide creeps me out.

I just don't get the "dignity" aspect of it. Letting an illness overcome you seems like a much more dignified way to die than killing yourself.

It creeps me out, but anything involving death creeps me out. If someone doesn't want to spend their last days in insufferable pain and agony, then they should be able to decide for themselves if they just want to end it. Feeling dignified is up to the individual, and if they are suffering and don't want to be seen like it as they linger on for a few months, then I support their right to do as they please with their own lives. I also don't believe in any slippery slope theory, either. I don't think any pediatrician is going to be snuffing out a child with the flu.

[GuyFawkes38]

It creeps me out, but anything involving death creeps me out. If someone doesn't want to spend their last days in insufferable pain and agony, then they should be able to decide for themselves if they just want to end it. Feeling dignified is up to the individual, and if they are suffering and don't want to be seen like it as they linger on for a few months, then I support their right to do as they please with their own lives. I also don't believe in any slippery slope theory, either. I don't think any pediatrician is going to be snuffing out a child with the flu.

So what about someone who is depressed? They suffer mentally, but are physically capable of living decades longer. Regardless, he or she wants to commit suicide.

Should a doctor be allowed to assist in such a suicide?

What about a depressed college student? There are a surprisingly high number of depressed and suicidal college students. Most often, they seem to grow out of it. Regardless, should a young adult have the right to commit suicide as a result of being in a depressed state?

These issues are not clear cut. There's a lot of grey area which would be exploited in an ugly manner, IMHO.

[golfitup]

It's not like anyone can just say i wanna die and go to a doctor. The law stipulates you must have a terminal illness and be given 6 months or less to live.

The central lady in the film was having a hard time breathing her last week living and was in a terrible amount of pain. Her prescribed amount of morphine per hour was a ridiculous amount. She decided she'd had enough and wanted to die in front of those she loved most.

It's about going out on their terms. The dignity part is up for each patient to decide. There is no shame in holding out till the bitter end or ending things before you lose control of all bodily functions.

The law also stipulates you must be able to take the deadly drug on your own. The doctor can't just kill you on his/her own.

I guess I just don't see what the problem is here. It is all about choice. Nothing more.

[GuyFawkes38]

The six month rule does reassure me a little. But I still have concerns. How much certainty does a doctor have when he declares the patient is in a 6 month window.

I've heard many stories of doctors telling patients that they only have 3 months to live, but the patient goes on to live months or even years longer.

Perhaps some doctors, motivated by cash and the sincere belief that a patient's choice should be honored, might interpret the 6 month window liberally.

yikes, I'm getting soft with age. I used to be a hardcore libertarian on such issues like this. Now I'm not.

Ultimately, I don't trust the individual to decide when he or she wants to die.

[stophorseabuse]

If a person wants to die let them go. I would be pounding illegal narcotics myself.this is the ultimate nobody's fucking business.

[GuyFawkes38]

If a person wants to die let them go. I would be pounding illegal narcotics myself.this is the ultimate nobody's fucking business.

So you think anyone should be able to commit suicide? No restrictions at all. Depressed teens should be able to legally kill themselves.

IMHO, that just doesn't seem like a mature position.

[Snipe]

I think that euthanasia can be a tremendous cost savings for our health care system. It has worked well in the past.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/EnthanasiePropaganda.jpg/250px-EnthanasiePropaganda.jpg

This poster (from around 1938) reads: "60,000 Reichsmarks is what this person suffering from a hereditary disease costs the People's community during his lifetime. Comrade, that is your money too.

Got to give some credit to Government Health Care!

[golfitup]

I think that euthanasia can be a tremendous cost savings for our health care system. It has worked well in the past.



Got to give some credit to Government Health Care!

I'm assuming this is sarcasm?

[madness31]

How is it anyone's business other than the individual and possibly those close to him/her if they want to die? How would you stop them from killing themselves? If you believe in God then let God figure out if the person was justified in their suicide. If you don't believe in God then why do you care? They had enough and wanted to rest.

If you are unwilling to legally allow someone to commit suicide then you are in no way a libertarian.

[GuyFawkes38]

How is it anyone's business other than the individual and possibly those close to him/her if they want to die? How would you stop them from killing themselves? If you believe in God then let God figure out if the person was justified in their suicide. If you don't believe in God then why do you care? They had enough and wanted to rest.

If you are unwilling to legally allow someone to commit suicide then you are in no way a libertarian.

I question if you really believe that.

If your mentally unstable son or daughter was about to commit suicide, wouldn't you use law enforcement to stop him or her?

Would you just think to yourself, "I disagree, but that's my son's right. So be it." I doubt it.

[GuyFawkes38]

Ezekiel Emanuel (yes, Rahm's brother) is a leading medical care expert. He's strongly against legalizing assisted suicide.

This is a great article which I strongly recommend supporters of assisted suicide to read:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1997/03/whose-right-to-die/4641/

I find it alarming so many people instinctively believe that it should be legal. READ THE ARTICLE. It brings up some good points.

[Strange Brew]

If you are unwilling to legally allow someone to commit suicide then you are in no way a libertarian.

ha, neither are you. The champion of the serfdom of the top 1%. Your alias is fitting.

[Kahns Krazy]

Ultimately, I don't trust the individual to decide when he or she wants to die.

What is your basis for this? Is it strictly a faith thing? I really don't know how you can say that you think you are better equipped to make that decision for someone else than they are.

[stophorseabuse]

I think anybody here would agree that you counsel someone you love not to do it if they are suffering from something that will pass. If someone has suffered from severe depression long term though and feel eternal quiet is more desirable (or whatever they believe) I understand it. If they rashly kill themselves I hate to see it by not my decision.

[XUFan09]

Ezekiel Emanuel (yes, Rahm's brother) is a leading medical care expert. He's strongly against legalizing assisted suicide.

This is a great article which I strongly recommend supporters of assisted suicide to read:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1997/03/whose-right-to-die/4641/

I find it alarming so many people instinctively believe that it should be legal. READ THE ARTICLE. It brings up some good points.

Good article

[GuyFawkes38]

What is your basis for this? Is it strictly a faith thing? I really don't know how you can say that you think you are better equipped to make that decision for someone else than they are.

My opinion on this doesn't stem from religion.

I keep on bringing up the mental health aspect of it. I think it's important. Mentally unstable patients shouldn't be given the right to end their own life.

From the article I linked to above (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1997/03/whose-right-to-die/4641/):


Myth No. 3: It is terminally ill patients with uncontrollable pain who are most likely to be interested in physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia. "In the case of a terminally ill adult who ends his life in the final stages of an incurable and painful degenerative disease, in order to avoid debilitating pain and a humiliating death, the decision to commit suicide is not senseless, and death does not come too early" (Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals).

The empirical studies of physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia in the Netherlands (where the practices have long been accepted), the United States, and elsewhere indicate that pain plays a minor role in motivating requests for the procedures. A 1996 update of the comprehensive and rigorous 1991 Remmelink Report on euthanasia practices in the Netherlands revealed that in only 32 percent of all cases did pain play any role in requests for euthanasia; indeed, pain was the sole reason for requesting euthanasia in no cases. A study of patients in nursing homes in the Netherlands revealed that pain was among the reasons for requesting physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia in only 29 percent of cases and was the main reason in only 11 percent. A study of physicians in Washington State who admitted to having received requests for physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia revealed that severe pain played a role in only about a third of the requests. A study of HIV-infected patients in New York found that interest in physician-assisted suicide was not associated with patients' experiencing pain or with pain-related limitations on function. My own recent study of cancer patients, conducted in Boston, reveals that those with pain are more likely than others to oppose physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia. These patients are also more likely to say that they would ask to change doctors if their attending physician indicated that he or she had performed physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia. No study has ever shown that pain plays a major role in motivating patient requests for physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia.

What does motivate requests? According to studies, depression and general psychological distress. The Remmelink Report found that among Dutch patients the leading reason for requesting euthanasia was a perceived loss of dignity. The study of Washington State physicians found that the leading factors driving requests were fear of a loss of control or of dignity, of being a burden, and of being dependent. Among the New York HIV-infected patients the leading factors were depression, hopelessness, and having few—and poor-quality -- social supports. In my own study, patients who were depressed were most likely to discuss euthanasia seriously, to hoard drugs for suicide, and to have read Final Exit, the Hemlock Society suicide manual.

These studies highlight an important conflict between people's actual attitudes and likely medical practice. Many Americans say they would support physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia for patients in pain; they oppose the practices for patients who worry about being a burden, about life's being meaningless, about hopelessness. But patients with depression and psychological distress are most likely to request death; patients in pain are less likely to request it.

[stophorseabuse]

WTF? Everyone has the right to end their life. The only time a Dr. Is needed is in the case of someone so physically bad off they can't do it. Failed suicide is just a cry for attention or help. Asking someone to kill you is too. This should be a non issue for those sound of body. They can do it without any permissions. They don't need to be given any guidance. Just find a tall building. If someone 'fails' that is the same as asking for treatment. Of course--we should treat them.


As long as they have an HMO. :/

[GuyFawkes38]

WTF? Everyone has the right to end their life. The only time a Dr. Is needed is in the case of someone so physically bad off they can't do it. Failed suicide is just a cry for attention or help. Asking someone to kill you is too. This should be a non issue for those sound of body. They can do it without any permissions. They don't need to be given any guidance. Just find a tall building. If someone 'fails' that is the same as asking for treatment. Of course--we should treat them.


As long as they have an HMO. :/

hmmm.

There is so much I disagree with in that short paragraph.

It's a holiday and I'm feeling lazy.

[stophorseabuse]

Guy, I know you disagree. If it was my son I would fight like hell. If it was me leave me alone. I wont need more than one try. There are several scenarios where I would do it too. Those of us that consider this a viable option feel it is only our business.

[Ledgewood]

The laws that are passed and trying to be passed have NOTHING to do with mental health. It's 100% terminal illness with little time to live. Mental health isn't even part of the equation.

I completely agree with all you're saying about keeping this law out of the mentally ill, but they are.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyr6H-1OFWI&playnext=1&list=PL844663EB5E016D08

Bout 4 minutes into the video it starts being a little relevant. That and I just like Adam Carolla.

[GuyFawkes38]

The laws that are passed and trying to be passed have NOTHING to do with mental health. It's 100% terminal illness with little time to live. Mental health isn't even part of the equation.

I completely agree with all you're saying about keeping this law out of the mentally ill, but they are.

I hate to requote what I just quoted, but it's relevant to your argument, so here it is:


Myth No. 3: It is terminally ill patients with uncontrollable pain who are most likely to be interested in physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia. "In the case of a terminally ill adult who ends his life in the final stages of an incurable and painful degenerative disease, in order to avoid debilitating pain and a humiliating death, the decision to commit suicide is not senseless, and death does not come too early" (Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals).

The empirical studies of physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia in the Netherlands (where the practices have long been accepted), the United States, and elsewhere indicate that pain plays a minor role in motivating requests for the procedures. A 1996 update of the comprehensive and rigorous 1991 Remmelink Report on euthanasia practices in the Netherlands revealed that in only 32 percent of all cases did pain play any role in requests for euthanasia; indeed, pain was the sole reason for requesting euthanasia in no cases. A study of patients in nursing homes in the Netherlands revealed that pain was among the reasons for requesting physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia in only 29 percent of cases and was the main reason in only 11 percent. A study of physicians in Washington State who admitted to having received requests for physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia revealed that severe pain played a role in only about a third of the requests. A study of HIV-infected patients in New York found that interest in physician-assisted suicide was not associated with patients' experiencing pain or with pain-related limitations on function. My own recent study of cancer patients, conducted in Boston, reveals that those with pain are more likely than others to oppose physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia. These patients are also more likely to say that they would ask to change doctors if their attending physician indicated that he or she had performed physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia. No study has ever shown that pain plays a major role in motivating patient requests for physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia.

What does motivate requests? According to studies, depression and general psychological distress. The Remmelink Report found that among Dutch patients the leading reason for requesting euthanasia was a perceived loss of dignity. The study of Washington State physicians found that the leading factors driving requests were fear of a loss of control or of dignity, of being a burden, and of being dependent. Among the New York HIV-infected patients the leading factors were depression, hopelessness, and having few—and poor-quality -- social supports. In my own study, patients who were depressed were most likely to discuss euthanasia seriously, to hoard drugs for suicide, and to have read Final Exit, the Hemlock Society suicide manual.

These studies highlight an important conflict between people's actual attitudes and likely medical practice. Many Americans say they would support physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia for patients in pain; they oppose the practices for patients who worry about being a burden, about life's being meaningless, about hopelessness. But patients with depression and psychological distress are most likely to request death; patients in pain are less likely to request it.

So according to Emanuel, even within the 6 month period, pain is secondary. Most patients choose to commit suicide because they are mentally depressed.

I guess you can argue, "of course they are depressed. They are going to die within 6 months. We shouldn't diminish the pain of depression."

Regardless, mental health is still the primary reason, according to Emanuel, why patients in oregon are committing assisted suicide.

[GuyFawkes38]

This is one of those issues which you can't talk someone into a different position on.

Still, it's interesting to hear different perspectives on this. I've learned more. While disagreeing with assisted suicided, it is a little reassuring that the Oregon and Washington laws require a patient to be within a 6 month window.

In the vast majority of the world, assisted suicide is illegal. It's even illegal in liberal and secular countries like Britain, France, Germany, etc. I think there are sound reasons why it's illegal, which don't rely on religion.

[muskienick]

This is one of those issues which you can't talk someone into a different position on.

Still, it's interesting to hear different perspectives on this. I've learned more. While disagreeing with assisted suicided, it is a little reassuring that the Oregon and Washington laws require a patient to be within a 6 month window.

In the vast majority of the world, assisted suicide is illegal. It's even illegal in liberal and secular countries like Britain, France, Germany, etc. I think there are sound reasons why it's illegal, which don't rely on religion.

I agree with Guy (gasp!!!) on this issue. Religion, politics, and ethics are seldom negotiable. It's pretty easy for me to say that I'd never off myself since I have never felt any type of pain or depression that would drive me to that end.

Also, I have witnessed my own Mom go through a decade-long losing battle with Alzheimer's with her faith being her only buffer against any thought of suicide.

I also saw my Dad go through about 7-10 years of steady, diminishing physical capacity which started when he swam, played racketball and tennis, and ran (trotted actually) 10 miles or more each a few times a week at 84 years of age. Following a series of mini-strokes, he eventually was reduced to enjoying life by visits from his family at his home where he watched birds and deer through his back window and Muskie basketball on TV. He never spoke of wanting to die but always saw as good the things that he could still do to make his life worth living until his death at age 94.

[TJMuskie06]

I watched the movie today. It was very sad to see Cody go through what she did. I think some of the arguments for and against assisted suicide have so far been pretty good, but if they watched the film, they would understand why Cody ultimately decided to end her life. She was diagnosed with cancer once and they operated on her and tried to get what they could. It turned out to not be good enough and the mass was so large that there was nothing else they could do for her. They only gave her six months to live and she decided she wanted to end her life at the three month mark. It turns out, when those three months were up, she was still feeling well. She actually lived longer than the six month prognosis. She ended up going from feeling well to feeling like hell in just a few weeks and they tried to give her pain meds and drain fluid from her body. They said she had 3 2 liters worth of fluid pushing on her stomach, lungs, and diaphragm and was in extreme pain. She suffered as long as she could and wasn't able to take the pain anymore. She said that she didn't want to go through more surgeries, have her weight fluctuate again, not be able to eat, lose her hair, and not enjoy life anymore and wanted to die on her terms. I fully support her choice in this matter. She waited as long as she could and pushed herself to be alive for her husband and children as long as she could. She was only 54 years old and was completely competent when she made the decision.

I know that this is a decision that is nearly impossible to sway someone one way or another on, but I feel that if a person is in enough pain and they are only given a few months to live and have no other options, then they should be able to make this decision as long as they are competent and not forced into it. I agree that it is a slippery slope, but I strongly support their right to make their own choice in how they die (in situations like Cody's). Sorry for rambling. Regardless if you agree or not, it was still a good documentary for both sides of the issue.

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

[QUOTE=golfitup;274570]It's not like anyone can just say i wanna die and go to a doctor. The law stipulates you must have a terminal illness and be given 6 months or less to live.

The central lady in the film was having a hard time breathing her last week living and was in a terrible amount of pain. Her prescribed amount of morphine per hour was a ridiculous amount. She decided she'd had enough and wanted to die in front of those she loved most.

It's about going out on their terms. The dignity part is up for each patient to decide. There is no shame in holding out till the bitter end or ending things before you lose control of all bodily functions.

The law also stipulates you must be able to take the deadly drug on your own. The doctor can't just kill you on his/her own. (quote)



The definition of "terminal" is pretty broad. As is the six months to live. The same criteria is required for Hospice care. Any Alzheimer's case is technically terminal. Could see how The Fam might want to expedite things if nothing isn't spelled out in an advanced directive.

I actually side with Obama about having advanced directives discussed with someone in ICU and am appalled by the right that alleges "death panels." If the right really cared about spending then they would look at what we spend on the last year of care.

Studies have shown overwhelmingly that people would prefer to die at home with loved ones. Sadly, the taboo of death means this often isn't discussed because of the discomfort to family and patient.

[Ledgewood]

I hate to requote what I just quoted, but it's relevant to your argument, so here it is:



So according to Emanuel, even within the 6 month period, pain is secondary. Most patients choose to commit suicide because they are mentally depressed.

I guess you can argue, "of course they are depressed. They are going to die within 6 months. We shouldn't diminish the pain of depression."

Regardless, mental health is still the primary reason, according to Emanuel, why patients in oregon are committing assisted suicide.

You GUESS I could argue "of course they are depressed they're going to die in 6 months"?!?!?!!

[GuyFawkes38]

You GUESS I could argue "of course they are depressed they're going to die in 6 months"?!?!?!!

I'm a little confused about the post above.

I think it's an important point. It's not the physical but the mental pain that, according to Emanuel, drives the Oregon patients to assisted suicide.

[Ledgewood]

I'm a little confused about the post above.

I think it's an important point. It's not the physical but the mental pain that, according to Emanuel, drives the Oregon patients to assisted suicide.

So would you be alright with something like a list of signs of physical pain within the 6 months? Or would you just say the whole things wrong at all?

Also, I'm not sure a pain free terminal illness (does one exist?) isn't a good enough reason for someone to end it all if they wanted to... Because I've never had one. And I think it's a bit much for any of us who don't have one to tell any of these people whether or not they should be able to.

[GuyFawkes38]

So would you be alright with something like a list of signs of physical pain within the 6 months? Or would you just say the whole things wrong at all?

Also, I'm not sure a pain free terminal illness (does one exist?) isn't a good enough reason for someone to end it all if they wanted to... Because I've never had one. And I think it's a bit much for any of us who don't have one to tell any of these people whether or not they should be able to.

Emanuel might be wrong.

But if he's right (I think he is), people aren't committing suicide to avoid physical pain. A pain free death isn't the attraction. It's the psychological imbalance of the patient that drives him or her to suicide.

I'm not exactly sure how the study measured a patience's psychological imbalance. But I'd imagine it's scientific (look at the patient's history of depression before the illness, brain scans, family history of depression, etc...).

[madness31]

I question if you really believe that.

If your mentally unstable son or daughter was about to commit suicide, wouldn't you use law enforcement to stop him or her?

Would you just think to yourself, "I disagree, but that's my son's right. So be it." I doubt it.

Of course I would try to help a loved one if they were depressed. It is a personal matter not a legal one. The government has no role in the matter. Doctors shouldn't be forced to assist in a suicide but they shouldn't be prevented either in a terminally ill situation. If a healthy person wants to end things they are on their own.

I'm not even sure how one would reach out to law enforcement to stop a suicide. If you are talking about getting them to take the gun out of the person's hands then that is fine but most likely a family member would be better suited to stop the event than a police officer. Making the incident public will likely only worsen the problems. The only way you can prevent suicide is by 24/7 monitoring or locking the person up. That is why it is silly to make suicide illegal.

The issue with assisted suicide is about the terminally ill and not just randomely depressed people. With the discussions of budget cuts, including medicare/medicaid this issue has another layer to it. Would you rather everyone get less care or allow those that are near death and wanting to quicken the process to be able to do so? A ton of money is spent on prolonging life by very short durations and frequently at a low quality of life. Eventually this will be unaffordable and will stop being a choice. The numbers just don't work.

I just don't see how the government has any role in dictating what someone can do to their own body (not talking about abortion as I know that is the argument made by many on that topic but is far more complex than that simple statement). The economic factors are secondary but will become very relevant in about a decade.

[GuyFawkes38]

I'm not even sure how one would reach out to law enforcement to stop a suicide. If you are talking about getting them to take the gun out of the person's hands then that is fine but most likely a family member would be better suited to stop the event than a police officer. Making the incident public will likely only worsen the problems. The only way you can prevent suicide is by 24/7 monitoring or locking the person up. That is why it is silly to make suicide illegal.


Many states have laws that can arrest and place an individual under surveillance for a set amount of time.

California's is sort of famous because celebrities sometimes are held:

link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_(Involuntary_psychiatric_hold))

Faced with a tough situation, you might use this tool if a family member was close to suicide, right?

That wouldn't mean you support the law (I guess we all sometimes use laws that we don't support). But I think it does help a lot of people.

[Kahns Krazy]

I don't think suicide should be any more illegal than dying of cancer. Maybe if depression and thoughts of suicide weren't so taboo or illegal, those suffering would be open to talking about it, and their loved ones might be able to help.

Have you ever attended the funeral of someone who has committed suicide? You'll lose track of how many times you'll hear "I wish I had known."

[blobfan]

...I've heard many stories of doctors telling patients that they only have 3 months to live, but the patient goes on to live months or even years longer.

Perhaps some doctors, motivated by cash and the sincere belief that a patient's choice should be honored, might interpret the 6 month window liberally.
...
Wow. Docs will kill patients just to make $ off the drugs? They make more by keeping them alive and continuing to treat them. That's just crazy, Guy, even for you. And I suspect the people that last beyond the doctors prognosis are the ones that choose to fight and live as long as they can.

I question if you really believe that.

If your mentally unstable son or daughter was about to commit suicide, wouldn't you use law enforcement to stop him or her?

Would you just think to yourself, "I disagree, but that's my son's right. So be it." I doubt it.
Several people have said the decision should be left up to the individual and those closest yet you keep throwing out the 'if it was your kid' argument. I think a lot of people have problems with laws banning assisted suicide because if it's NOT our kid, we don't feel right butting in. If we don't know the circumstances, should ban it across the board?

I don't like the death penalty, I don't like abortion, I don't like assisted suicide. I think they should be avoided at all costs. But I've been alive on this planet for too long to think they should all be banned outright. Sometimes it's the lesser of two evils. I think these decisions should be made by the people with the most knowledge and most closely affected by the situation.

[GuyFawkes38]

Wow. Docs will kill patients just to make $ off the drugs? They make more by keeping them alive and continuing to treat them. That's just crazy, Guy, even for you. And I suspect the people that last beyond the doctors prognosis are the ones that choose to fight and live as long as they can.

Blobfan, you love being outraged by my posts. Do you really read them?

Did I say that doctors might provide assisted suicides solely for the profit motive? You make it sound that way.

Lets look at the quote again:



Perhaps some doctors, motivated by cash and the sincere belief that a patient's choice should be honored, might interpret the 6 month window liberally.
.

The bold part speaks for itself.


Several people have said the decision should be left up to the individual and those closest yet you keep throwing out the 'if it was your kid' argument. I think a lot of people have problems with laws banning assisted suicide because if it's NOT our kid, we don't feel right butting in. If we don't know the circumstances, should ban it across the board?

You can't have it both ways.

I appreciate that Stophorseabuse is consistent. He said he would do all he could to help his son or daughter if they contemplated suicide. But ultimately it would come down to their choice and their choice should be legally honored.

Are you saying that close family and friends should or shouldn't have the right to place someone they care and love about under observation?

Again, if your son or daughter is close to committing suicide, should you be able to put him or her under forced care?

your avoiding the question by arguing, "Well, it's not my kid or your kid. So you and I can't possibly have an opinion on the matter."

AND PLEASE. READ MY POSTS BEFORE YOU START COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM.

[blobfan]

I read your posts. Perhaps you aren't being as clear as you think you are. Or maybe you are in such a hurry to post that you didn't clearly read and think about mine.

I'm saying that people who have friends and family should involved them in their decision before taking their own life due to a terminal illness. In every case I've heard of, they do. Many die in peace surrounding by those that love them.

And I did not say you presented $ as the sole motivator for doctors but it is absurd you would even consider adding that to the conversation. Not only is it insulting to every doctor involved in end of life decisions but it's completely illogical. As I said, they would make more $ by keeping people alive until the bitter end. The pills that kill you are cheap. It's the ones that keep you alive that cost the big bucks.

[GuyFawkes38]

And I did not say you presented $ as the sole motivator for doctors but it is absurd you would even consider adding that to the conversation. Not only is it insulting to every doctor involved in end of life decisions but it's completely illogical. As I said, they would make more $ by keeping people alive until the bitter end. The pills that kill you are cheap. It's the ones that keep you alive that cost the big bucks.

In Oregon, many doctors refuse to assist in suicides.

Many other doctors accept it, but strictly interpret the 6 month period.

I'd imagine that it's more than possible that a doctor, who believes that it should be a patient's choice, might interpret the 6 month period more liberally.

I think it's undeniable that such doctors could make some cash by gaining new patients. Is the doctor doing it solely for profit. NO. But that might be a small part of the motivation.

Not many doctors perform late term abortions. Do they just do it for the money? Of course not. I think they seriously believe in what they are doing. But they do make a lot of money. It might have played some role in their decision.

[madness31]

I can't imagine using a monitoring service to stop someone from killing themself. I would council them, get them professional help arrange fun activities and do whatever else I could think of to add joy to their life but I can't imagine putting them on suicide watch. If they truly want to commit suicide they will get it done whether on watch or not. I also can't imagine being watched 24/7 is going to convince them life is worth living. I'm sure it has worked for someone somewhere but most likely those going on to live normal lives were never really serious about suicide. I could be wrong but it just doesn't make sense logically. It also doesn't seem to require a law or public funding. If a person wants to hire a private company for suicide watch then have at it but don't legislate suicide.

I actually knew a suicidal person. She had been placed in a mental hospital and saw therapists and psychologists but was still cutting herself years later. I'm not saying those programs don't work as I'm sure they do for numerous people but it depends on the cause of the pain. I couseled her for awhile and when I eventually moved away she was doing well and ended up engaged last I heard. It wasn't so much about anything I did other than taking the time to show that I cared. I'm sure my employer would have taken issue with me couseling an employee rather than reporting it but it was the best thing for her. I have no idea if she would have gone through with it but she was definitely in a bad place psychologically and showed noticable improvement just from someone taking interest in her issues.

[GuyFawkes38]

Jack Kevorkian passed away.

IMHO, this is simply a tasteless promotional stunt by the film's producers. Not impressed.

[waggy]

Not impressed.

I am.

[Snipe]

Two links for this thread:

Suicide and Abortion (http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/06/suicide-and-abortion/)

Dr. Kevorkian’s Victims
By ROSS DOUTHAT (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/06/opinion/06douthat.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

I have said this before. It is my own case for PTSD. I should get a government check!

Interesting reading. My father died at the Cleveland Clinic. The cancer had spread to his brain. To have a chance at life he needed open brain surgery and he would have tubes in him for the rest of his life. He would be bedridden for the rest of his life with tubes coming out of him. He was already failing mentally, because the cancer was eating his brain. That doesn't come back either. After the surgery, you could argue that he wasn't even my father anymore, just the shell of my father.

They gave us the option of morphine vs. the surgery and the tubes. They told us the cancer caused him pain, and that to let him be pain free he could get morphine, but the morphine would hurt his chances and that he would most likely die.

We all chose the morphine. Still kind of haunts me. I didn't like it because I didn't want to see my dad pass. He was my hero. He was a great dad, and the reason I am a dad. I only hope and pray to live up to his standards. He didn't want to live on tubes with his brain already eaten away by the cancer. What life is that?

We have the technology to keep people living past their prime. We keep many people living past the point that they are even realistically even people anymore. It happens, and it costs a bunch. My dad wouldn't have been much of a person if we kept him alive. We chose the morphine, and the doctors told us explicitly that he would pass.

I was so happy that he wasn't in pain anymore. Still to this day I am grateful that when he died he wasn't in pain.

My nightmares revolve around being the last on of five siblings to make it to the clinic that night. He wanted to talk to me to say goodbye. I did most of his care when he had cancer. He still had enough to realize that I wasn't there, and he was asking about me (I was delayed).

I said goodbye to me dad, and I told him I loved him. He said goodbye to me, and then they gave him the morphine and my mom held him all night long until he died.

At some points the cancer had eaten his brain that he couldn't tell you what year it was, and at other points, like in his last calling of me he wanted to say goodbye.

I have fought the whole thing a thousand times over in my mind, and I think we made the right choice. My dad died a painless death, and no reason existed to try to prolong the struggle.

[muskiefan82]

Snipe,

My thoughts and prayers go out to you and your family. I am sure your father is looking down on you, watching over you, and wishing you hadn't said this or that on XH and wishing you had said more about other things.

Sounds like a special man. I am happy you could be there for him and that he got to say his goodbyes.

[bobbiemcgee]

Two links for this thread:

Suicide and Abortion (http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/06/suicide-and-abortion/)

Dr. Kevorkian’s Victims
By ROSS DOUTHAT (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/06/opinion/06douthat.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

I have said this before. It is my own case for PTSD. I should get a government check!

Interesting reading. My father died at the Cleveland Clinic. The cancer had spread to his brain. To have a chance at life he needed open brain surgery and he would have tubes in him for the rest of his life. He would be bedridden for the rest of his life with tubes coming out of him. He was already failing mentally, because the cancer was eating his brain. That doesn't come back either. After the surgery, you could argue that he wasn't even my father anymore, just the shell of my father.

They gave us the option of morphine vs. the surgery and the tubes. They told us the cancer caused him pain, and that to let him be pain free he could get morphine, but the morphine would hurt his chances and that he would most likely die.

We all chose the morphine. Still kind of haunts me. I didn't like it because I didn't want to see my dad pass. He was my hero. He was a great dad, and the reason I am a dad. I only hope and pray to live up to his standards. He didn't want to live on tubes with his brain already eaten away by the cancer. What life is that?

We have the technology to keep people living past their prime. We keep many people living past the point that they are even realistically even people anymore. It happens, and it costs a bunch. My dad wouldn't have been much of a person if we kept him alive. We chose the morphine, and the doctors told us explicitly that he would pass.

I was so happy that he wasn't in pain anymore. Still to this day I am grateful that when he died he wasn't in pain.

My nightmares revolve around being the last on of five siblings to make it to the clinic that night. He wanted to talk to me to say goodbye. I did most of his care when he had cancer. He still had enough to realize that I wasn't there, and he was asking about me (I was delayed).

I said goodbye to me dad, and I told him I loved him. He said goodbye to me, and then they gave him the morphine and my mom held him all night long until he died.

At some points the cancer had eaten his brain that he couldn't tell you what year it was, and at other points, like in his last calling of me he wanted to say goodbye.

I have fought the whole thing a thousand times over in my mind, and I think we made the right choice. My dad died a painless death, and no reason existed to try to prolong the struggle.

Just went thru the same thing last month with my Brother. His immediate family chose the surgery path for 6 more months. He got 3 miserable ones. You did the right thing. God Bless.