Food Prices Rant

[bobbiemcgee]

Just back fron the grocery and can't believe I spent $75 on 4 little plastic bags of food. Just the usual staples stuff, and NO Meat this trip. It seems to me, these little trips cost $35-40 like six months ago!!! Just me and the wife, so can't even imagine what it cost to feed a family nowadays. My purchases covered a corner of the counter space. Ridiculous.

Guess I'm gonna go on the "jared" diet and buy a footlong sub everyday and eat half @ each meal. If you tried to buy everything in it at the store, it would probably be close to 20 bucks! Rant over.

[xnatic03]

you ever tried couponing? My sister's one of those crazy coupon people, and although I'm not to the extreme she is, I can usually save a bunch of money doing what I do. It's something to look into.....

[boozehound]

Food prices are going to keep going up. They are heavily dependent on Gasoline to ship products. Crop costs are going up as well, particularly sugar which is at a 30 year high. This is going to be a tough year for the foods industry and consumers.

[GoMuskies]

Corn is a problem as well since we are wasting a good portion of it on ethanol because Iowa's presidential caucuses are first.

[bobbiemcgee]

Corn is a problem as well since we are wasting a good portion of it on ethanol because Iowa's presidential caucuses are first.

Not to mention the shellack blowing up small engines.......

[drudy23]

Just rename the thread "______ prices rant" and we all can fill in the blank. Everything is too expensive.

[Juice]

Corn is a problem as well since we are wasting a good portion of it on ethanol because Iowa's presidential caucuses are first.

And since cows and pigs eat corn as well it affects those prices too. Ethanol is a stupid, stupid idea.

[blobfan]

And since cows and pigs eat corn as well it affects those prices too. Ethanol is a stupid, stupid idea.

Wish thy could capture some of the methane created.

[Porkopolis]

Just rename the thread "______ prices rant" and we all can fill in the blank. Everything is too expensive.

This guy agrees. His rant in the debate a few years ago was absolutely epic.

McMillan for President 2012 (http://www.rentistoodamnhigh.org/)

[waggy]

This guy agrees. His rant in the debate a few years ago was absolutely epic.

McMillan for President 2012 (http://www.rentistoodamnhigh.org/)

All the cool people have gloves. I need to get me a glove.

[LadyMuskie]

I'm a pretty serious couponer, but even I think prices are getting out of control and the coupons are worth less than they used to be. I used to think it was cheaper to eat at home, but I'm starting to think it's cheaper to eat out. Less healthy, but cheaper depending upon where you eat. It's crazy.

[Showrunner]

Obviously, it depends on what you eat. Eating at home is cheaper than eating out everytime you compare apples to apples.

We are a family of 7. We are always on the run and ate out almost every single meal, every single day. We gave up eating out for lent. Since then, I'm flat out amazed at the difference.

For instance; (All these prices were in the last 2 weeks)
Box of pasta at Krogers this week .49
Prego Spaghetti Sauce 1.50
Ground Beef 1.69 lb
Loaf of bread $1
Hot Dogs .99
Turkey/Ham/Beef Lunch meat 9oz packs - 2 for $5
Boneless Skinless Chicken Breasts - 1.90 lb
Potatoes 5lb bag - 1.99
Dozen eggs - 1.29
Fruits and Vegetables Fresh - .20 ear of corn, Peppers and onions 49.lb, grapes .99lb, bananas .54 lb
Frozen Veggies - .50 a bag

Not a hard core couponor, but I did use some, and I have not spent more than $100/wk. I also am not familiar with where prices were previous to lent so I don't have any sticker shock. Bottom line is buy good prices and don't be a picky eater.

Through this little experiment I also found out Walgreens is the greatest store on earth. Never buy at the grocery store what you can get at Walgreens. They basically give stuff away every week with their rewards bucks. Toothpaste, soap, body wash, shampoo, deodorant, all free in the last 6 weeks.

And my favorite.... "Save on toilet paper, never play a home game."

[bobbiemcgee]

Wow. Can't imagine what it would cost to eat out every day with your family of 7. Yes, I would expect significant savings.

[Porkopolis]

Wow. Can't imagine what it would cost to eat out every day with your family of 7. Yes, I would expect significant savings.

I think family size is key. For a two person household like mine eating at home cheaply (and well) can be a challenge. I think it is still usually cheaper but not by as much as it is with a large family.

[delynn10]

Try the Kroger Spaghetti Sauce. It is made locally and always does well in taste tests versus Ragu and Prego.

[Fireball]

There's four of us. We do pretty well eating out with coupons and kids eat free nights and whatnot, but it is absolutely cheaper to eat at home.

My wife is really good at the coupon thing also. Takes some time and preparation for both of us (I cut and she organizes), but we usually save a lot on our grocery bill by doing so.

[boozehound]

Just rename the thread "______ prices rant" and we all can fill in the blank. Everything is too expensive.

The rent is too damn high, too.

[XU-PA]

Guess I'm gonna go on the "jared" diet and buy a footlong sub everyday and eat half @ each meal. If you tried to buy everything in it at the store, it would probably be close to 20 bucks! Rant over.

I did that sub thing way back when I had a one room apartment in corryville. Just around the corner from Adriaticos, they had a 2 for one sub, But it was no diet!!!

Seriously, haven't been shopping in awhile?? Shit is expensive,,,, very expensive. Just consider yourselves lucky if you are in Cincy. With all the grocery competition, and Kroger trying to beat the daylights out of the rest of the market, you are on coupon heaven. Here in Maine, we are a 2 chain state, shaw's and hannaford. Walmart is kind of a player. But mention the phrase double coupon up here and people look at you like your from another planet. The best savings deal here is the store card, so you can get 88 cent fresca 2 liters and a dollar off the 24 roll package of charmin.

[madness31]

There is no comparision between eating at home and in a restaurant unless you are eating off the dollar menu. Prices have gone up and will continue to go up but the key is to buy only what is on sale and preferably with a coupon. Kroger does a great job mailing coupons so that you get $5 off whenever you spend $35 or more. They also give coupons for free food and discounts off other items.

I am still able to get a month's worth of food and drinks for two for under $150. Generics are typically as good as name brands with a few exceptions. Aldi is a great source for many products. Check the adds each week to see if Kroger or Meijer has the better sales and go there or if you have time and the stores are close together go to both. Giant Eagle is almost always more expensive, especially non sale items.

If you pay retail and don't wait for sales you will blow a ton of money. If I ate out everyday I'd probably be broke.

[LadyMuskie]

Last week we bought 3 Sunday papers because of the P&G Supersaver and the Target store coupons. So, I'm one of those crazy coupon people - although I don't stockpile like the people on those shows because I don't have the storage for it. The problem is that those coupons are all for processed foods which are incredibly unhealthy to eat in large quantities. Additionally, I keep a file of what we spend and what value our coupons are and have done so since I became a stay at home mom. Over the last two years, coupon values have dropped dramatically. Coupons that were once save $1.50 on 2 are now save $1.00 on 4 or save $.75 on 2. That's a significant drop.

Moreover, if you like to eat fresh fruits and veggies, that is going to raise your bill right there. I can spend about $60 a week just in produce because we eat a lot of fruit and veggies in our house. In the summer months that bill drops because we plant our own veggie garden, but we still have to get our fruit from somewhere. We do frequent Findlay Market and our local farmer's market, but no local farmer is going to have bananas, grapes, oranges, etc. so I still have to go to a grocer for that and with a preschooler, bananas, grapes and strawberries are a must.

As far as the Kroger coupons, those too have dropped in value. I used to receive coupons once a month from Kroger that were quite good and were store coupons so you could stack them with the manufacturer's coupons. Now, Kroger sends out manufacturer's coupons so no more stacking which is a reduction in savings. I haven't received a save $5 if you spend this amount coupon from them in over a year. And I know I'm not alone because I go to coupon swaps and all of the ladies are complaining about the same thing.

Coupons can save you quite a bit of money, if you want to buy the items for which the coupons are printed. I've already saved over 60% off my bill just by couponing and using the Kroger Plus card. But, our grocery budget has still gone up considerably because of the rising cost of food - even with using coupons like a crazy person. Unfortunately, my fellow couponers are all complaining about the same thing, so coupons are not the sole answer.

[LadyMuskie]

Obviously, it depends on what you eat. Eating at home is cheaper than eating out everytime you compare apples to apples.

We are a family of 7. We are always on the run and ate out almost every single meal, every single day. We gave up eating out for lent. Since then, I'm flat out amazed at the difference.

For instance; (All these prices were in the last 2 weeks)
Box of pasta at Krogers this week .49
Prego Spaghetti Sauce 1.50
Ground Beef 1.69 lb
Loaf of bread $1
Hot Dogs .99
Turkey/Ham/Beef Lunch meat 9oz packs - 2 for $5
Boneless Skinless Chicken Breasts - 1.90 lb
Potatoes 5lb bag - 1.99
Dozen eggs - 1.29
Fruits and Vegetables Fresh - .20 ear of corn, Peppers and onions 49.lb, grapes .99lb, bananas .54 lb
Frozen Veggies - .50 a bag

Not a hard core couponor, but I did use some, and I have not spent more than $100/wk. I also am not familiar with where prices were previous to lent so I don't have any sticker shock. Bottom line is buy good prices and don't be a picky eater.

Through this little experiment I also found out Walgreens is the greatest store on earth. Never buy at the grocery store what you can get at Walgreens. They basically give stuff away every week with their rewards bucks. Toothpaste, soap, body wash, shampoo, deodorant, all free in the last 6 weeks.

And my favorite.... "Save on toilet paper, never play a home game."
What Kroger do you shop? The prices you are listing are incredible. I just emailed your list to a friend who does match ups for ads for a website and she's dying to know which Kroger you shop and so am I. The only two things that had the same price were the bread and the potatoes. The Prego price is particularly incredible. I can't remember the last time I saw Prego below $2 at Kroger. I hope your Kroger is near me!

[waggy]

Brocolli and carrots are my go-to fresh veggies. Healthy, inexpensive, and easy to prepare.

Tomatos are rediculous and have been for a while. I would think anything with a tomato base has got to go up.

Fruits: Whatever is on sale/in season.

The wife gives me coupons to take shopping, but they are hit and miss. One of the better ones, I got a few large local brand supreme frozen pizzas for $3 each one time. And they were good. But most of the time you're better off just waiting for a sale. If you catch the sale and throw in the coupon, then you're starting to save money. But generally I hate fumbling with coupons compared to the savings.

Once you kinda learn prices (I ate out/didnt have to worry about for years) going to multiple stores can save some.

[Showrunner]

What Kroger do you shop? The prices you are listing are incredible. I just emailed your list to a friend who does match ups for ads for a website and she's dying to know which Kroger you shop and so am I. The only two things that had the same price were the bread and the potatoes. The Prego price is particularly incredible. I can't remember the last time I saw Prego below $2 at Kroger. I hope your Kroger is near me!

Prego was at Meijer this week 1.50. Ragu was on sale an Kroger this week 1.42 I think. Prego was 2.12. However Kroger had the Pasta for .49.

I will stop at Meijer or Remke/Biggs when I see something AND if I'm passing it. I will not go out of my way though.

Kroger had the Chicken breasts last week at 1.90 lb. Tyson. Ground Beef was Krogers too. You had to get the 5lb roll to get that price though.

I believe all Krogers in the city run the same specials. My Krogers is Western Hills and Dent, but I will hit the Kenwood or Hyde Park as well since the office is in between them.

[delynn10]

Kroger Spaghetti Sauce > Prego or Ragu.

Try it one time, it is good.

[Kahns Krazy]

Coupons can save you quite a bit of money, if you want to buy the items for which the coupons are printed. .

Ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner. Coupons don't save you anything if you didn't want the product to begin with.

Small savings can add up, but I prefer to get the things I like at the store, as opposed to what the coupon tells me to get. For example, I have found that getting the Boar's Head Turkey instead of the store brand watered down turkey makes me far more likely to pack my lunch.

I do try to be flexible when things that I like are on sale, so I can save there. If I was thinking turkey, but the roast beef is on sale, I'll go that route for a couple bucks a pound. Same thing with veggies. I like a lot of different stuff, so I'll grab what's on sale that week.

I also shop at Sam's Club, even though there's only two of us. We have learned that there are some things we can't get through quick enough (lettuce, for example) from Sam's, but the meat is dramatically cheaper. Their rotisserie chickens are a great substitute for eating out, too. You still need to pay attention to prices, since Sam's isn't always a better deal.

[bobbiemcgee]

Food expected to double by 2030. Why do I feel it will be closer to 2020. I use the Kraft Macaroni and Cheese index. 10 for a buck in my X days, sometimes .09.

[madness31]

They might double a couple times by 2030, maybe even by 2020.

Incomes may drift higher but food costs and the price of most goods will rise dramatically faster. I suggest changing eating habits to take into account sale items and use freezer space to stock up when meats are particularly cheap and pantry for canned, jarred and boxed items. It is still possible to eat for an average cost of about $1 per person per meal.

A few cheap but nutritional meals to make at home are: Tacos, Italian Sausage Speg, Bacon Pasta, Any Chicken Dish, Pork Stir Fry or Fajitas.

Even using healthy amounts of veggies in the above dishes you should be able to eat at an average cost of about $1 per meal. Do that now and save money for when those prices rise. For those thinking you can eat out as cheaply you might want to recheck your math. If you are eating out regularly and you don't have significant savings you are mortgaging your future. If you don't bank the money to do this and still grow your retirement and investment accounts then you should reduce eating out to rare occassions when you want to treat yourself.

Cooking isn't that time consuming if for just one or two people. Cook a couple meals a week and eat left overs the rest of the week. A family of 5 is going to require a lot more effort but will greatly enhance your financial situation.

[smileyy]

Beans are cheap and very good for you.

[BiggieXU]

There is no comparision between eating at home and in a restaurant unless you are eating off the dollar menu. Prices have gone up and will continue to go up but the key is to buy only what is on sale and preferably with a coupon. Kroger does a great job mailing coupons so that you get $5 off whenever you spend $35 or more. They also give coupons for free food and discounts off other items.

I am still able to get a month's worth of food and drinks for two for under $150. Generics are typically as good as name brands with a few exceptions. Aldi is a great source for many products. Check the adds each week to see if Kroger or Meijer has the better sales and go there or if you have time and the stores are close together go to both. Giant Eagle is almost always more expensive, especially non sale items.

If you pay retail and don't wait for sales you will blow a ton of money. If I ate out everyday I'd probably be broke.
Whoa how do you only spend $150 for a month for two? We spend ~$90-110 a week just for food buying generics of pretty much everything at Kroger, although we buy almost no "boxed" dinners and a lot of produce.

[madness31]

Biggie, it is not easy to keep the grocery bill that low but if you stock up during great sales and plan meals around what veggies are cheap it is possible. I buy a lot of store brands but sometimes get name brands cheaper during great sales and with coupons. I typically shop at Meijer or Kroger depending on which has the best sale that week and occassionally do both. I also have certain items I get at Aldi. If neither Kroger or Meijer have good produce sales I'll get that at Aldi too but I'm lucky in that the Aldi near me actually has quality produce, some do not.

If you splurge on steaks or other high end meats the bill will rise quickly. The Kroger $5 off coupons and free cheese, carrots, etc definitely help keep costs down. My Kroger also does manager specials on bread and buns all the time.

I don't do a lot of boxed or processed foods. I do always have a frozen pizza or two available but buy when they are about $2.50 each.

Price Limits:
Pasta .50
Speg Sauce 1
Chips 1
Ground Beef 1.89
Chicken .99
Pork Loin 2.99
Bread .79
sour cream 1
shredded chease 1.79
eggs 1
soda 12 pk 2.25
peppers 1 each
mushrooms 1
onions 1.49 (3 lbs)
carrots 1
asparagus 1.99
brussel sprouts 2.5
beans .99
broccoli 1.50

Meijer often has better prices on produce so if you eat a lot of produce you may want to check there but it does vary from week to week.

[Tu 4 MVP]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/04/27/how_goldman_sachs_created_the_food_crisis

Blame Wall Street.

[smileyy]

Vampire Squid, it's what's for dinner?

[Snipe]

You can buy foodstamps in my neighborhood, the going rate is usually $2 for a $1 cash. I have never done this.

I looked online to see if the State of Ohio or the Federal Government gave any rewards for reporting Food Stamp fraud but I couldn't find anything. Some vendors will cash food stamp cards and give people 50 cents on the dollar. One swipe of the card for $200 gets a welfare participant $100 cash. I know people that have used the service. If they gave an award, I would be glad to try to document it.

I don't think the government cares though. If they don't care, should I care? I could drive a tenant to a store, fill the cart full of steaks and racks of ribs, buy $200 worth of meat and give him $100 on the way home. I wouldn't even be at the register. I have had people offer me this. I have always declined, but it is tempting. With rising food prices and a government that could care less about watching the store it is tempting.

The government is pumping so many food stamps into the system right now that I am sure they are easy to come by.

[X-band '01]

Not quite food, but I'm starting to wonder about SimCity 2000's predictions as it relates to newspapers:

2000 - $1
2050 - $5 (we'll overlook the fact that newspapers may well be extinct at this point)

Too bad they didn't have the capacity to guess on food prices when that game came out.

[Kahns Krazy]

You can buy foodstamps in my neighborhood, the going rate is usually $2 for a $1 cash. I have never done this.

I looked online to see if the State of Ohio or the Federal Government gave any rewards for reporting Food Stamp fraud but I couldn't find anything. Some vendors will cash food stamp cards and give people 50 cents on the dollar. One swipe of the card for $200 gets a welfare participant $100 cash. I know people that have used the service. If they gave an award, I would be glad to try to document it.

I don't think the government cares though. If they don't care, should I care? I could drive a tenant to a store, fill the cart full of steaks and racks of ribs, buy $200 worth of meat and give him $100 on the way home. I wouldn't even be at the register. I have had people offer me this. I have always declined, but it is tempting. With rising food prices and a government that could care less about watching the store it is tempting.

The government is pumping so many food stamps into the system right now that I am sure they are easy to come by.

I think you should switch neighborhoods if you aren't going to take advantage of the perks offered in yours.

[xubball1993]

I'm ashamed to admit this, but anything in a box, can or jar, I buy at Walmart. Yes, my IQ drops just by walking in the store but consider: box of Cheerios: $3.50. Same box at Krogers: $5.29. I still go to Krogers for fresh fish, Amish chicken and veggies and fruit.

[nuts4xu]

I have had people offer me this. I have always declined, but it is tempting.

Next time you get offered, give me a ring. I will give you a list and you can connect me with your "tennant"....cool?

If nothing else, hook your boy up with some of them ribs!!

[xeus]

I still go to Krogers for fresh fish, Amish chicken and veggies and fruit.

What is it that (supposedly) makes "Amish" chicken so special?

[XU-PA]

Used to buy Amish chicken at a place up in Pisgah. the breasts were huge (insert sophomorice jokes here) really!
The whole amish way of farming will give you a much healthier product. Raised with regular feed, a lack of chemicals, more like the free range chicken that some people swear by.

on the food price issue, food prices are higher because transportation costs are higher. In my opinion the price increases we see are higher than the corresponding price increase in fuel. BUT, with that said it's very difficult to get a real handle as an amateur on determining how fuel cost affects food prices at the grocery store. Yoy have to remember that oil adds cost at every stage of farming. The cost of preparing fields, the cost of fertilizer supplied to farmers, the cost of planting, harvesting, costs for labor, shipping he harvested producted. Then all the same levels hit the processor and manufacturing levels. And then of course it hits the distribution and retail stages too.

A partial answer? Buy local. Really, it's the only way to slice some of the massive use of oil out of the cost of your grocery shopping. Do some digging when you pick stuff up at Kroger, Sam's Club, Walmart etc. Those cute little oranges, from spain. Those big juicy prawns, vietnam. Vegetables at best come from the west coast, or they are shipped up from Central and South America. Obviously all your food needs and desires can't be fulfilled by gathering locally grown but much of it can. How many poultry, dairy and beef farms are there in your area? Certainly there are scores of vegetable farms, many with hothouses that grow year round. You folks in the Cincy area have it pretty easy, imagine living up here surrounded by the rocky soil and short growing season of Maine. But, we've got cheap potatoes and blue berries, lots of dairy and chicken farms, and of coure our lobster can be had for $4 a piece along with some of the cheapest scallops, shrimp and haddock any where in the country.

Buy local, support your neighbors, and save some cash!

[Juice]

on the food price issue, food prices are higher because transportation costs are higher. In my opinion the price increases we see are higher than the corresponding price increase in fuel. BUT, with that said it's very difficult to get a real handle as an amateur on determining how fuel cost affects food prices at the grocery store. Yoy have to remember that oil adds cost at every stage of farming. The cost of preparing fields, the cost of fertilizer supplied to farmers, the cost of planting, harvesting, costs for labor, shipping he harvested producted. Then all the same levels hit the processor and manufacturing levels. And then of course it hits the distribution and retail stages too.

I've already stated this in this thread or another but food prices are also up because of the US's ethanol policy. Dems and Republicans are both guilty of this. It's not exactly smart to take a good portion of our corn that could be goign to feed people and animals and then turning it into a fuel.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2011-02-09-corn-low_N.htm

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2048885,00.html

[Porkopolis]

XU-Pa is right on. My wife and I buy most of our produce and fresh meat at Findlay Market. We save money over Kroger and get higher quality ingredients, with the added benefit of seeing the faces that produce our food. Sure, it takes a little extra effort but it is well worth it.

[Kahns Krazy]

I've already stated this in this thread or another but food prices are also up because of the US's ethanol policy. Dems and Republicans are both guilty of this. It's not exactly smart to take a good portion of our corn that could be goign to feed people and animals and then turning it into a fuel.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2011-02-09-corn-low_N.htm

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2048885,00.html

Are we still paying subsidies to people to not grow corn? I don't know. I sure hope not.

[bobbiemcgee]

I'm ashamed to admit this, but anything in a box, can or jar, I buy at Walmart. Yes, my IQ drops just by walking in the store but consider: box of Cheerios: $3.50. Same box at Krogers: $5.29. I still go to Krogers for fresh fish, Amish chicken and veggies and fruit.

Walmart generic Cheerios $2.24. Can't tell the difference myself.

[madness31]

If you are not going to shop for sales Walmart is a great option. Sale prices at Kroger and Meijer usually beat Walmart regular prices but some sales are better than others.

Ethenol is a huge problem. It is not energy efficient and drives up the cost of food.

I believe farmers are still paid to not grow but haven't checked into it recently. Ending the program could result in soil erosion and depletion but you would hope the farmers would take a longer term view and not destroy their land for short-term profits. Could go either way as the Finance industry had no problem going for short-term profits at the expense of the future. Regardless what course of action the farmers take, I strongly support ending the subsidy.

[XU-PA]

Are we still paying subsidies to people to not grow corn? I don't know. I sure hope not.

We pay subsidies to grow corn, to pump oil, to dig up coal, pretty much every business in the US gets a subsidy as long as their big enough to donate serious campaign cash. Handouts result in handouts.
Not much difference in corporate welfare and food stamps.

[XU-PA]

I've already stated this in this thread or another but food prices are also up because of the US's ethanol policy. Dems and Republicans are both guilty of this. It's not exactly smart to take a good portion of our corn that could be goign to feed people and animals and then turning it into a fuel.


First corn subsidies cam decades ago, I think under the Nixon admin possibly earlier, a move to use corn as a trade pawn, and then in the manufacture of the thousands of other non food items that corn is now used for, like high fructose corn syrup and cattle feed.
I recall a couple years ago, when this ethanol-corn issue came up bread makers started hiking their prices claiming that there was a corn shortage (isn't, wasn't) and that was driving up the cost of flour. This depsite the fact that the flour is made of wheat, TV stations loved it as a news item though,,,,,

[bobbiemcgee]

You can't win in Iowa and be anti-ethanol. You have to participate in the Corn love-fest to get the votes. "Emperor's New clothes" scenario. Absurd, of course.

[madness31]

There might not be a corn shortage but inventories are lower than they use to be. The reason corn demand would effect wheat is because as corn demand rises, corn prices also rise. As corn prices rise more farmers want to grow corn and less grow wheat. Wheat inventories fall which cause prices of wheat to rise.

I'm not saying bakeries and other places didn't prematurely use the news as an excuse to raise prices but there is a valid reason why prices would go higher. Ethenol isn't a bad idea but in the case of corn ethenol it is inefficient. The energy required to make it is very similar to the energy it gives off based on numerous studies. Some studies show net negative energy and others show a slight positive. The benefit, if there is one, is too small when you consider the impact on food prices and water resources expended. Sugar cane ethenol on the other hand is very effective.

US energy policy needs to revolve around natural gas as we have tons of supply, it is cheap and clean. The only potential issue is the safety of drilling as some reports claim serious harm to water supply. Some industry leaders claim if done correctly the water supply is not damaged. Considering the water shortages in many areas of the world this issue definitely needs researched.

[GuyFawkes38]

You can't win in Iowa and be anti-ethanol. You have to participate in the Corn love-fest to get the votes. "Emperor's New clothes" scenario. Absurd, of course.

Why would this affect Obama's position now. He is, without a doubt, the DNC nominee. He doesn't need Iowa or Nebraska to win in 2012.

I think it goes beyond the Iowa primary.

[XU-PA]

There might not be a corn shortage but inventories are lower than they use to be. The reason corn demand would effect wheat is because as corn demand rises, corn prices also rise. As corn prices rise more farmers want to grow corn and less grow wheat. Wheat inventories fall which cause prices of wheat to rise.

I'm not saying bakeries and other places didn't prematurely use the news as an excuse to raise prices but there is a valid reason why prices would go higher. Ethenol isn't a bad idea but in the case of corn ethenol it is inefficient. The energy required to make it is very similar to the energy it gives off based on numerous studies. Some studies show net negative energy and others show a slight positive. The benefit, if there is one, is too small when you consider the impact on food prices and water resources expended. Sugar cane ethenol on the other hand is very effective.

US energy policy needs to revolve around natural gas as we have tons of supply, it is cheap and clean. The only potential issue is the safety of drilling as some reports claim serious harm to water supply. Some industry leaders claim if done correctly the water supply is not damaged. Considering the water shortages in many areas of the world this issue definitely needs researched.


Heard the argument about prices shifting what farmers grow, but these were short term moves in the prices. Anything like a planned shift in crop production would take a year or more to happen as farmers change long term plans. It was just small segments of the food industry trying to capitalize and justify price increases in away way they can. The blame game is a sorry way to do business. if you have to raise prices, raise em, if it's justified people will still buy your product, if not your competition will beat the crap out of you till you go back to the lower price.

I've seen alot about the gas supply, and no one talks about the environmental issues, I appreciate that you brought it up. Gas is a good way to go, temporarily, but just like the oil sands in canada, using it will come with a high price. Either the environment around it gets trashed at epic levels, or we pay epic levels to get it out cleanly. There are sooooooooo many other places to look for energy, the renewable industry is just scratching the surface at what can be done, Alternatives to diesel, use of wood waste, burning of garbage, ethanol from non food plants. Those seem to be a better long term answer to energy issues because of the massive number of jobs they create, as well as being a way to get off the teet of every other country in the world.

I think when the production of these alternates gets high enough that main stream use is common, we'll be able to breathe. Look at it this way, when production is high enough that the farm machinery harvesting the crops used to make alternative fuels, are using those alternative fuels, then we'll know we've arrived.

It's funny how it's all one big issue, the food prices, oil, global security, jobs, and politics, it's all one big ball of shit!

[madness31]

PA, most of your alternatives are for electricy generation. Nat gas can be used for autos. I'm not sure the environmental impact would be as bad as you believe. I'm skeptical of what the impact is and will be and believe it needs studied. I read a report claiming state environmental agencies are saying the industry is not causing water problems and those problems are typically caused by coal seems, agricultural run-off, oil spills, etc. The coal seems can be verified because the two gases are very different. Shale gas plays are thousands of feet below the water table so the only instances believed to be problems are when drill bits break and the well has to be shut in. Problems can arise from this if they are not sealed correctly. There was one other type of instance that caused problems but I can't recall what it was.

I have not fact checked this data with the state agencies mentioned in the article or other sources yet but figured I'd pass along the info. My gut instinct is to believe that it is safer than some of the bad press the industry gets but not as safe as the report I read indicates. If environmental damage is limited to times where something goes wrong in the drilling process and these occurances are rare or the percentage of times these problems lead to environmental damage is low then this must be pursued as an energy solution. This industry could produce a ton of jobs and the lower nat gas cost compared to gasoline would be a huge "tax" cut for the American consumer. You could still pursue solar, wind, nuclear, geothermal and the others for electricity. Currently nat gas is the cheapest source of energy but once it became the go to fuel for autos the price would have to rise to make those others competitive.

[XU-PA]

Madness, I'd love to see a link to any info on that topic. It is an interesting one.
I live up here in the frozen northeast where the vast majority of us heat with oil. the really stupid ones use electricity, and most people outside the cities have some sort of wood (I use pellets).
It is important to have many many options so that one portion of the industry can't corner us.
The trouble with natural gas up here is the transportation of it. Gas lines are very very expensive to build, and just out of the price range for non urban areas. Even smaller towns don't have the density to justify the expense. I use bottled gas for my hot water (but I also have an electric water heater as back up) and using it that way is really not very cost effective, but the convenience is better than electric.
I can see a time when houses are built with solar panels, solar hot water, they are hooked to the grid to feed back excess electric, and the heat plant in the house will allow switches between different sources depending on the price, season and availabaility.
Imagine having your PC linked 24/7 to energy prices as well as your utility bill and it will tell your furnace and water heater whether to run on gas if the price is down, electric if you have a nice positive balance from your solar panels, or switch over to bio mass like wood pellets if your comfort zone needs a blast of nice hot air!

[Juice]

PA, most of your alternatives are for electricy generation. Nat gas can be used for autos. I'm not sure the environmental impact would be as bad as you believe. I'm skeptical of what the impact is and will be and believe it needs studied. I read a report claiming state environmental agencies are saying the industry is not causing water problems and those problems are typically caused by coal seems, agricultural run-off, oil spills, etc. The coal seems can be verified because the two gases are very different. Shale gas plays are thousands of feet below the water table so the only instances believed to be problems are when drill bits break and the well has to be shut in. Problems can arise from this if they are not sealed correctly. There was one other type of instance that caused problems but I can't recall what it was.

I have not fact checked this data with the state agencies mentioned in the article or other sources yet but figured I'd pass along the info. My gut instinct is to believe that it is safer than some of the bad press the industry gets but not as safe as the report I read indicates. If environmental damage is limited to times where something goes wrong in the drilling process and these occurances are rare or the percentage of times these problems lead to environmental damage is low then this must be pursued as an energy solution. This industry could produce a ton of jobs and the lower nat gas cost compared to gasoline would be a huge "tax" cut for the American consumer. You could still pursue solar, wind, nuclear, geothermal and the others for electricity. Currently nat gas is the cheapest source of energy but once it became the go to fuel for autos the price would have to rise to make those others competitive.

Natural gas is no worse than oil for the environment, am I to assume correctly?

I also don't understand why natural gas isn't being proposed as the fuel the US uses as it transitions from oil and coal to the other forms that everyone wants but cannot efficiently and economically be used like geothermal, solar, wind, etc. Until these energy forms are improved upon, they really cannot be used on a large scale.

Why nuclear power isn't used in this country astounds me.

[X-band '01]

Why nuclear power isn't used in this country astounds me.

Just the mere possibility of an accident like Chernobyl, Three Mile Island or the power plants in Japan after the tsunami. Plus, you've got to have a place to store low-level radioactive waste; not very many (if ANY) places are keen to have such storage facilities in their backyard.

And that's not even taking into consideration what terrorists could do to power plants near urban areas.

[XU-PA]

Why nuclear power isn't used in this country astounds me.

Besides the obvious safety concerns following what happened in Japan this year, try and find a place for the waste. We have a nuke plant on the coast up here, has been off for five or so years, spent fuel still being stored on site, still monitored, still a danger, and no solution in sight.