You want speculation?

[waggy]

You got it.

Big East thinking about expanding... Again (http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-college-basketball/2011/04/big-east-thinking-about-expanding-again.html)

[waggy]

And the most interesting quote from the Boston Globe article linked in the above Chicago story is:

And how does Big East basketball absorb new schools? The answer is that it doesn’t.

Expansion would probably force the seven non-football basketball members of the Big East — DePaul, Marquette, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence, and St. John’s — to consider breaking off into their own conference. According to sources within the conference, however, that would be a last resort.

[XUFan09]

"Let's hope it doesn't come to it, but know that the possibility is still looming out there."

Let's hope it does come to it :D

There's a lot of dreaming of Xavier being part of a better conference, but this is the only near-future scenario that is actually plausible. The A-10 has worked well for X, but such a move could be good. Football does drive collegiate sports, so we'll see what (if anything) happens.

[xubrew]

From the article.....



That new conference would need another team to be a viable NCAA Division I basketball conference. It might attract a look from Xavier, Dayton or St. Louis - or even all three, but it would probably first have to convince the NCAA to pull off a WAC/MWC sort of move and waive the waiting period for an automatic bid.

Just a clarification....The MWC did not receive a waiver for the waiting period. It wasn't until 2001 that it earned an automatic bid. That was why they added an extra team to the NCAA Tournament and we suddenly had the play in game.

Also, there would be no waiting period necessary because that league would meet the requirements for an automatic bid. It would contain seven programs that have been div1 for eight years. That's all that is required now. That is why the WAC will not lose thier status as an automatic qualifier.

If Xavier would want to get a serious look, I would strongly recommend adding another sport or two, and increasing the number of scholarships in the non-revenue sports that they currently have. Just my opinion...

[dc_x]

And the most interesting quote from the Boston Globe article linked in the above Chicago story is:

And how does Big East basketball absorb new schools? The answer is that it doesn’t.

Expansion would probably force the seven non-football basketball members of the Big East — DePaul, Marquette, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence, and St. John’s — to consider breaking off into their own conference. According to sources within the conference, however, that would be a last resort.

If Nova goes 1A in football, there's not a lot of basketball quality left. It's basically Marquette and Georgetown. It doesn't seem to me like a huge step up in conferences.

[pizza delivery]

Just add Gtown, Villanova, Marquette and St. Johns, then toss out Fordham, throw a huge fuckin party, then throw out Lasalle and pass out.

[xudash]

If I had to guess at this point, I'd say that Nova isn't going to be able or allowed to make the jump, primarily because of the facilities solution they've been forced to pitch: a pro soccer stadium that is off campus and only seats 18.5k.

Ironically, Temple is in the catbird seat on this specific issue, as they entered into an exclusive lease for the Linc. Otherwise, Penn's place isn't available; Penn still plays football. And Radnor Township won't let Nova add one seat to its existing crappy on-campus stadium.

So imagine you're the AD at Pitt, WVU or UL. Your home stadium solution seats at least 50k. Your president walks up to you and asks you if the program would suffer any negative rep by playing away games in Philly in a small soccer stadium involving a new conference mate that might be pleased to average 20k to 30k in home gate - with your alumni traveling to help with that number, of course.

[xudash]

Just add Gtown, Villanova, Marquette and St. Johns, then toss out Fordham, throw a huge fuckin party, then throw out Lasalle and pass out.

May we force Fordham's and LaSalle's ADs to mud wrestle, then throw them out at the same time, then pass out?

[xubrew]

If I had to guess at this point, I'd say that Nova isn't going to be able or allowed to make the jump, primarily because of the facilities solution they've been forced to pitch: a pro soccer stadium that is off campus and only seats 18.5k.

Ironically, Temple is in the catbird seat on this specific issue, as they entered into an exclusive lease for the Linc. Otherwise, Penn's place isn't available; Penn still plays football. And Radnor Township won't let Nova add one seat to its existing crappy on-campus stadium.

So imagine you're the AD at Pitt, WVU or UL. Your home stadium solution seats at least 50k. Your president walks up to you and asks you if the program would suffer any negative rep by playing away games in Philly in a small soccer stadium involving a new conference mate that might be pleased to average 20k to 30k in home gate - with your alumni traveling to help with that number, of course.

I thought Franklin Field was one of the options they were looking at. I didn't know that had been ruled out. I know Penn still plays there, but they could still share it. Besides, half of the Big East schedule is during the week anyway.

That would make tons more sense than sharing a soccer stadium. It isn't common that two teams share the same field, but it's not unheard of either. Florida International and Miami shared the Orange Bowl for a time, and USC and UCLA shared the Rose Bowl at one time. If they're willing to give Penn a game as a Big East team, Penn would probably be all for it. It seats over 50k people, and is way better than a soccer stadium...

[DC Muskie]

I don't think Franklin Field has lights. Could be a problem to play week day night games.

[xudash]

From everything I've read, Franklin Field is not an option, period, end of story.

They've been fussing with the soccer stadium almost from the get go. That is what they presented as their solution to the BE.

I'm not here to spread rumors. This stuff is coming from articles and from the rather remarkable "banter" that finds its way onto Nova's Rivals message board.

[waggy]

Dash,

What is the prevailing reaction/feeling of Nova fans about the BE's last minute about face?

I think I agree with you about Temple - in that they are the only viable Philly option.

[xudash]

Dash,

What is the prevailing reaction/feeling of Nova fans about the BE's last minute about face?

I think I agree with you about Temple - in that they are the only viable Philly option.

The bottom line feeling, from what I've read, is that many Nova hoops fans believe they need the BCS jump to protect their basketball program. As a result, they're between panicked and livid that the soccer stadium solution received a late "you know, we're not sure about this" reaction from schools like Pitt, WVA and Rutgers.

I agree with the Pitt faction. If I'm staging home games in a 50k plus NFL arena, I don't want to have a conference mate staging theirs in an 18.5k capacity pro soccer stadium. I think I would get laughed at by other BCS conferences.

Overall, Nova is going to come out on this like Montgomery came out with Operation Market Garden - it was a bridge too far for the Allies and it's going to be too few fans, not enough start-up capital, and an insufficient facilities solution for Nova.

The BE cannot afford to dilute its football product further and that's what will happen if they let Nova in, IMO. UCF and Houston (for TCU) would seem to be the next logical two if expansion is truly necessary.

[waggy]

Okay this is what I want:

Duquesne
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John’s
Villanova

Butler
DePaul
Marquette
Notre Dame
Saint Louis
Xavier

It doesn't have to be called the Big East, and it probably wouldn't be. And games don't have to be at MSG (and they probably wouldn't be), because you have a bunch of great options for a conference tourney.

[XUFan09]

Okay this is what I want:

Duquesne
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John’s
Villanova

Butler
DePaul
Marquette
Notre Dame
Saint Louis
Xavier

It doesn't have to be called the Big East, and it probably wouldn't be. And games don't have to be at MSG (and they probably wouldn't be), because you have a bunch of great options for a conference tourney.

Yeah, like Atlantic City! Oh...wait...

That's 7 out of 12 teams that will regularly go to the tournament, with some potential off-years here and there, and a few other teams that are capable of good years. Nice balance. The article mentioned Dayton instead of Duquesne, but really the Pittsburgh market of 3 million people is just better than what Dayton can offer (even if Pittsburgh is a football/hockey town).

[xubrew]

I don't think Franklin Field has lights. Could be a problem to play week day night games.

I didn't realize that. I guess that would be an issue.

[xubrew]

Yeah, like Atlantic City! Oh...wait...

That's 7 out of 12 teams that will regularly go to the tournament, with some potential off-years here and there, and a few other teams that are capable of good years. Nice balance. The article mentioned Dayton instead of Duquesne, but really the Pittsburgh market of 3 million people is just better than what Dayton can offer (even if Pittsburgh is a football/hockey town).

If we have learned anything from Fordham and Duquesne, it should be that the size of the market is far less important than the presence within that market. Robert Morris is also in Pittsburgh. That doesn't mean it would be wise to invite them to join the conference.

Dayton offers more than Duquesne. They have a bigger fanbase, better facilities, and an athletic budget that is actually on par with the rest of the teams listed. If the only thing a team can really offer is the market they're in, then they don't offer that much.

[jdm2000]

Based on the TV deal the Big XII just got with Fox Sports for their "secondary" deal, it seems like that conference is not going to implode after all. So the movement will have to come elsewhere.

[STL_XUfan]

If we have learned anything from Fordham and Duquesne, it should be that the size of the market is far less important than the presence within that market. Robert Morris is also in Pittsburgh. That doesn't mean it would be wise to invite them to join the conference.

.

Agreed, just look at the University of Cincinnati. Decent sized market and they can't seem to get anyone to go their games.

[xubrew]

Based on the TV deal the Big XII just got with Fox Sports for their "secondary" deal, it seems like that conference is not going to implode after all. So the movement will have to come elsewhere.

It will help, but I think the problem most schools had was that the conference wasn't so much the Big Twelve, as much as it was Texas and CO. Their revenue sharing is all messed up. For some reason (I'm not sure why) Texas ended up with a larger share than the rest of the league, and was basically more powerful within the inter-workings of the league. On top of that, Texas was always looking to leave, or start their own network and not inlcude the rest of the league, or things like that.

In order to keep the league together, they actually agreed to give Texas an even BIGGER share and say than what they had before. So, what was frustrating the other institutions before is even more prevalent now.

[xubrew]

Here is a little more on the discussions of whether or not Nova should join....

http://www.nunesmagician.com/2011/4/13/2107119/the-octonion-villanova-big-east-football-tcu-syracuse-uconn-louisville-pitt#storyjump

[dc_x]

If we have learned anything from Fordham and Duquesne, it should be that the size of the market is far less important than the presence within that market. Robert Morris is also in Pittsburgh. That doesn't mean it would be wise to invite them to join the conference.

Dayton offers more than Duquesne. They have a bigger fanbase, better facilities, and an athletic budget that is actually on par with the rest of the teams listed. If the only thing a team can really offer is the market they're in, then they don't offer that much.

YES! This is the lesson Linda Bruno never learned.

[_LH]

Okay this is what I want:

Duquesne
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John’s
Villanova

Butler
DePaul
Marquette
Notre Dame
Saint Louis
Xavier

It doesn't have to be called the Big East, and it probably wouldn't be. And games don't have to be at MSG (and they probably wouldn't be), because you have a bunch of great options for a conference tourney.

Tastes like the MCC.

Replace Richmond for Duquesne. Rhode Island for Providence. Temple for Seton Hall. dayton for DePaul (makes me vomit to write that). UMASS for SLU.

[xudash]

Keep in mind that the BE hoops schools would keep the BE name and MSG lease were a split to occur.

It's safe to say that the value of the TV contract for a hoops-centric BE would go down, especially with the loss of the state schools, but you also could argue that ESPN could then sink its teeth into building up the hoops league from there.

They did it once; they could do it again. It's what we hate them for anyway - why not join in and reap the benefits on the second wave.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Tastes like the MCC.

Replace Richmond for Duquesne. Rhode Island for Providence. Temple for Seton Hall. dayton for DePaul (makes me vomit to write that). UMASS for SLU.

I disagree about Depaul. That Chicago market would be appealing for sure. That's why they are included. Providence instead of URI is fine with me. Temple would be nice, but with their football program on the rise they are probably heading towards BCS status

[Muskie]

Here is a little more on the discussions of whether or not Nova should join....

http://www.nunesmagician.com/2011/4/13/2107119/the-octonion-villanova-big-east-football-tcu-syracuse-uconn-louisville-pitt#storyjump


I thought that was hysterical at the end.

[XUFan09]

I disagree about Depaul. That Chicago market would be appealing for sure. That's why they are included. Providence instead of URI is fine with me. Temple would be nice, but with their football program on the rise they are probably heading towards BCS status

Agreed, especially since Depaul should be improving under Purnell to at least the point of respectability.

[xudash]

Here is a little more on the discussions of whether or not Nova should join....

http://www.nunesmagician.com/2011/4/13/2107119/the-octonion-villanova-big-east-football-tcu-syracuse-uconn-louisville-pitt#storyjump

Thanks for that. Too funny.

The Bearcat calls dibs on "Steve."

[_LH]

I disagree about Depaul. That Chicago market would be appealing for sure. That's why they are included. Providence instead of URI is fine with me. Temple would be nice, but with their football program on the rise they are probably heading towards BCS status

I disagree about DePaul. ND would carry the "Chicago Market". Does anyone in Chicago watch DePaul basketball? Taking teams based on TV markets (Fordham) that no one watches in that market (DePaul) is not wise.

Why Providence over URI? Not saying which is better but why would you take Providence.

Temple's only shot for football in the BCS would be the BE and they kicked them out once.

[xubrew]

I disagree about DePaul. ND would carry the "Chicago Market". Does anyone in Chicago watch DePaul basketball?

Yeah, but only when they're playing Notre Dame or Illinois.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I disagree about DePaul. ND would carry the "Chicago Market". Does anyone in Chicago watch DePaul basketball? Taking teams based on TV markets (Fordham) that no one watches in that market (DePaul) is not wise.

Why Providence over URI? Not saying which is better but why would you take Providence.

Temple's only shot for football in the BCS would be the BE and they kicked them out once.

EDIT: Ok, I see your point with Depaul and with Providence/URI basically being a coin flip. In regards to Temple, I think temple is a prime candidate for the BE. But due to principle, I have to always disagree with you at some point. So here it goes:

Mark McGwire used roids

[_LH]

Ok, I see you point with Depaul. Providence URI is basically a coin flip.

In regards to Temple, I think temple is a prime candidate for the BE

If its a coin flip, I'd rather take URI with their newer 9,500 seat arena and pretty decent program but this is all just silly speculation afterall.

I'd be surprised to see the BE invite Temple back after kicking them out but I guess their are only so many "big time" football programs that would jump at a BE invite at this point, so the BE may not have better options and Temple would go back in a heart beat.

If Temple would not be an option, I'd bring back SLU.

[Mrs. Garrett]

I disagree about DePaul. ND would carry the "Chicago Market". Does anyone in Chicago watch DePaul basketball? Taking teams based on TV markets (Fordham) that no one watches in that market (DePaul) is not wise.

Why Providence over URI? Not saying which is better but why would you take Providence.

Temple's only shot for football in the BCS would be the BE and they kicked them out once.

I watch DePaul basketball, since I was 5 and they made the Final 4 in 1979. They will be more than respectable in a couple years. Purnell has made nice with the Mac Irvin Fire AAU program. This AAU team traditionally has the best players in the Chicago area. Signed a couple of kids off that team in his first year.

He already has Billy Garrett Jr. for 2013 - son of DePaul assistant Billy Garrett Sr. He Played with Wayne Blackshear one of the top players in the nation headed to Louisville. Garrett is a top 60 recruit in many rankings. A lot of people think he will attract not only players for 2013, but also 2012.

The key is to get in good with the Chicago high school and AAU programs, Wainwright couldn't do it, Purnell did it in about a month. It might take a long time for DePaul to recover from what Wainwrong did to the program, but Purnell is moving it in the right direction.

By the time this conference actually comes together (if it ever does) DePaul will be much better than they are today.

Note: DePaul - ND could potentially be a big rivalry game like it was when the Meyers/ Phelps coached the teams and the were independents.

[_LH]

I watch DePaul basketball, since I was 5 and they made the Final 4 in 1979. They will be more than respectable in a couple years. Purnell has made nice with the Mac Irvin Fire AAU program. This AAU team traditionally has the best players in the Chicago area. Signed a couple of kids off that team in his first year.

He already has Billy Garrett Jr. for 2013 - son of DePaul assistant Billy Garrett Sr. He Played with Wayne Blackshear one of the top players in the nation headed to Louisville. Garrett is a top 60 recruit in many rankings. A lot of people think he will attract not only players for 2013, but also 2012.

The key is to get in good with the Chicago high school and AAU programs, Wainwright couldn't do it, Purnell did it in about a month. It might take a long time for DePaul to recover from what Wainwrong did to the program, but Purnell is moving it in the right direction.

By the time this conference actually comes together (if it ever does) DePaul will be much better than they are today.

Note: DePaul - ND could potentially be a big rivalry game like it was when the Meyers/ Phelps coached the teams and the were independents.

Good for DePaul but I have heard similar things about their program over the last decade so they don't make the cut in my mythical new conference. ;)

[Mrs. Garrett]

Good for DePaul but I have heard similar things about their program over the last decade so they don't make the cut in my mythical new conference. ;)

Really? Because ever since the day Jerry Wainwrong was hired, DePaul fans knew the program wasn't going anywhere. So doubt you'd been hearing the program was going anywhere.

The previous coaches both took them to post season (NCAA and NIT). So it is possible and hasn't been that long. All it takes is a coach who can recruit the city, which Purnell can, the Public League coaches love him. So good luck to Bruce Weber, there's been a lot of chatter about some of the Chicago guys down there being unhappy.

Chicago is the third largest market out there so they really would be better served with both ND and DePaul. Plus, the ND football fan base doesn't really translate into basketball here, alot of the ND alums I know don't even really follow basketball in comparison to football.

[xubrew]

My experience is a little different. Most of the Notre Dame football fans I know never actually had anything to do with the University. They didn't attend as undergraduates or graduates, they never worked there, and never even lived in the vicinity of the school. Having said that, just about everyone I know who actually DID attend the university supports the basketball team. In other words, it's a big deal to people who actually went there. It's just that a large percentage of ND football fans aren't actually alumni.

[jdm2000]

I have three ND alums in close family (an uncle and two cousins). I follow ND basketball more closely than they do (and I don't follow them any more than any other generic college team). But they are there for every football game.

[XUFan09]

My experience is a little different. Most of the Notre Dame football fans I know never actually had anything to do with the University. They didn't attend as undergraduates or graduates, they never worked there, and never even lived in the vicinity of the school. Having said that, just about everyone I know who actually DID attend the university supports the basketball team. In other words, it's a big deal to people who actually went there. It's just that a large percentage of ND football fans aren't actually alumni.

This is part of the reason that ND football fans annoy me. That and the mystique surrounding the place in general.

[_LH]

Really? Because ever since the day Jerry Wainwrong was hired, DePaul fans knew the program wasn't going anywhere. So doubt you'd been hearing the program was going anywhere.

The previous coaches both took them to post season (NCAA and NIT). So it is possible and hasn't been that long. All it takes is a coach who can recruit the city, which Purnell can, the Public League coaches love him. So good luck to Bruce Weber, there's been a lot of chatter about some of the Chicago guys down there being unhappy.

Chicago is the third largest market out there so they really would be better served with both ND and DePaul. Plus, the ND football fan base doesn't really translate into basketball here, alot of the ND alums I know don't even really follow basketball in comparison to football.

Yes, really. I can remember hearing how DePaul is a sleeping giant for years and years. Still waiting... Actually, I really don't care either way but DePaul would not make my mythical conference as they bring nothing on the court and little off it that ND wouldn't already bring.

[muskienick]

Okay this is what I want:

Duquesne
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John’s
Villanova

Butler
DePaul
Marquette
Notre Dame
Saint Louis
Xavier

It doesn't have to be called the Big East, and it probably wouldn't be. And games don't have to be at MSG (and they probably wouldn't be), because you have a bunch of great options for a conference tourney.

I'd like Waggy's suggestion even better with one change in each of the two divisions...

Substitute Richmond for Duquesne because Richmond has proven over time that it is better for a Conference than Duquesne is from both a competition and a fan base perspective (not to mention their comparative home playing venues).

Replace ND with UD (I know --- yuch!) because it is folly to think that ND would not get a better deal to stay with the Big East even without commiting to a football membership and even "folly-er" to believe that ND wouldn't agree to stay as they are (unless they finally decide to go to a better FB Conference than the Big East like the Big 10).

[muskienick]

I disagree about DePaul. ND would carry the "Chicago Market". Does anyone in Chicago watch DePaul basketball? Taking teams based on TV markets (Fordham) that no one watches in that market (DePaul) is not wise.

Why Providence over URI? Not saying which is better but why would you take Providence.

Temple's only shot for football in the BCS would be the BE and they kicked them out once.

We (meaning the schools that are not current members of the Big East) aren't going to decide who will be members of such a Conference as Waggy describes. Providence will be there. So will Seton Hall and DePaul. Like it or take your basketballs and go play in the Horizon League or beg for membership in the CAA or MVC.

[muskienick]

In addition to the fact that DePaul is likely to get better now that they have a decent coach, the other reasons that it makes sense to have them in a BB-driven Metro Conference:

No chance for them to leave for a FB Conference
Great City to visit --- food, bars, muskienick's relatives, plenty to do
Even in a completely horrible year, they averaged over 8,200 fans/game at Allstate Arena
Great area for recruiting HS and AAU kids
They need the change as badly as we need it!

[XUFan09]

In addition to the fact that DePaul is likely to get better now that they have a decent coach, the other reasons that it makes sense to have them in a BB-driven Metro Conference:

No chance for them to leave for a FB Conference
Great City to visit --- food, bars, muskienick's relatives, plenty to do
Even in a completely horrible year, they averaged over 8,200 fans/game at Allstate Arena
Great area for recruiting HS and AAU kids
They need the change as badly as we need it!


Wow, that surprised me. That's probably higher than UC's average lol

[xudash]

We have to get to the best conference solution possible, because we have to get to the best TV deal possible.

The TV deals that came out recently and continue to come out - the Big XII's in this case - show how important it is to want us to fix the A10, whatever that could mean, or get to a BE hoops conference that then has the good fortune of having ESPN nurture it, albeit not on the same level as it did when it had large state schools in the mix.

Our basketball program is in good shape and should continue to be in good shape. It's the Olympic sports that would benefit from higher levels of funding, and that would enhance the overall appeal and perception of the school.

[principal]

We have to get to the best conference solution possible, because we have to get to the best TV deal possible.

The TV deals that came out recently and continue to come out - the Big XII's in this case - show how important it is to want us to fix the A10, whatever that could mean, or get to a BE hoops conference that then has the good fortune of having ESPN nurture it, albeit not on the same level as it did when it had large state schools in the mix.

Our basketball program is in good shape and should continue to be in good shape. It's the Olympic sports that would benefit from higher levels of funding, and that would enhance the overall appeal and perception of the school.

I am quoting xudash but this question is for everyone. Suppose that the BE splits and the basketball schools go there own way. Suppose further that they begin looking around for schools to join them. They look at Temple, Dayton, whomever else, and they look at XU. Suppose further that our "other sports" are not as well funded, scholarshipped, etc. as they would like. Assuming we are an attractrive draw due to our television market, basketball success (men's and women's), and committmen to athletics, are the decision makers for this hypothetical conference going to dismiss us on the basis our other sports are lacking or is it more likely they would come to us and say "Hey, we really want you, we like what you've done with basketball, we want your TV market, we love your rivalry with UC, we love that you are willing to spend money, and we want you to join us, but we need you to committ to spending "x" amount of dollars on your "other sports"? I would have to guess the latter. That being the case, wouldn't we be willing to spend the money to join a league that would be less brutal than the Big East but far superior to the A10, and would almost certainly ensure we would get a huge chunk of that money back almost instantly from TV deals and indirectly from exposure, recruiting advantage (which brings more money eventually), etc?

It seems to me that we are an obvious and attractive enough of an option that we would be approached and asked to committ the dollars. It is hard for me to imagine we would not be willing to spend the money.

principal

[XUFan09]

I am quoting xudash but this question is for everyone. Suppose that the BE splits and the basketball schools go there own way. Suppose further that they begin looking around for schools to join them. They look at Temple, Dayton, whomever else, and they look at XU. Suppose further that our "other sports" are not as well funded, scholarshipped, etc. as they would like. Assuming we are an attractrive draw due to our television market, basketball success (men's and women's), and committmen to athletics, are the decision makers for this hypothetical conference going to dismiss us on the basis our other sports are lacking or is it more likely they would come to us and say "Hey, we really want you, we like what you've done with basketball, we want your TV market, we love your rivalry with UC, we love that you are willing to spend money, and we want you to join us, but we need you to committ to spending "x" amount of dollars on your "other sports"? I would have to guess the latter. That being the case, wouldn't we be willing to spend the money to join a league that would be less brutal than the Big East but far superior to the A10, and would almost certainly ensure we would get a huge chunk of that money back almost instantly from TV deals and indirectly from exposure, recruiting advantage (which brings more money eventually), etc?

It seems to me that we are an obvious and attractive enough of an option that we would be approached and asked to committ the dollars. It is hard for me to imagine we would not be willing to spend the money.

principal

Yeah, I think we would be considered and probably approached with that request in this scenario.

[xudash]

principal, I think we're already at the top of everyone's list when it comes to the BE hoops schools.

I also believe we have a good core of competitive key sports now: men's and women's hoops, men's golf, tennis on both sides, volleyball and baseball.

Maybe we add LAX and something else; that is something that will come out of any due diligence process that takes place. It's a good insight on your part to bring it up - Xavier seems to run a compact, tight ship when it comes to programs offered so as not to dilute the flagship.

[jdm2000]

And it's not as if Providence, Seton Hall, etc. are juggernauts in the other sports, either (at least not as far as I am aware).

[_LH]

EDIT: Ok, I see your point with Depaul and with Providence/URI basically being a coin flip. In regards to Temple, I think temple is a prime candidate for the BE. But due to principle, I have to always disagree with you at some point. So here it goes:

Mark McGwire used roids

I never said he didn't.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I never said he didn't.

http://www.xavierhoops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13012&page=22&highlight=Steroids

[bleedXblue]

My simple wish (and maybe this is already happening and we just dont know about it) is that X and Bobinski and being very open and exploring new opportunities that may be out there. It just seems really simple to me. Look to improve where you can. Look to make sure that basketball is the absolute primary focus of any and all schools that we may look to partner with. Lastly, make sure that you can go to ESPN etc. with a better product than what you have today.

XU
Butler
DePaul
Dayton
Richmond
Villanova (Temple will move to BE)
URI/Providence
UMASS
St. Louis
Charlotte
Marquette
St. Johns
Georgetown

Any combination of the above to make up a 10 team conference would be vary marketable.

[_LH]

http://www.xavierhoops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13012&page=22&highlight=Steroids

Thanks. Proves me right that I never said he didn't use steroids.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Thanks. Proves me right that I never said he didn't use steroids.

XU87 to you "So let me get this straight. You believe that there is no evidence that McGwire used steroids but there is evidence that Griffey used steroids?"

You respond "That's not what I said" (even though its clearly what you said)

XU87 to you "You have repeatedly argued that there was evidence that McGwire used steroids. But now you're arguing that Griffey's production during the steroid era is evidence that he used steroids.

So yes, that is what you said."

You just can't admit you are ever wrong. So you don't want the Chicago market represented in the new league?

[_LH]

XU87 to you "So let me get this straight. You believe that there is no evidence that McGwire used steroids but there is evidence that Griffey used steroids?"

You respond "That's not what I said" (even though its clearly what you said)

XU87 to you "You have repeatedly argued that there was evidence that McGwire used steroids. But now you're arguing that Griffey's production during the steroid era is evidence that he used steroids.

So yes, that is what you said."

You just can't admit you are ever wrong. So you don't want the Chicago market represented in the new league?

I'm simply not wrong. I never said McGwire didn't use steroids and your link does not prove otherwise.

I think ND would carry as much of the Chicago TV market as DePaul would and see no reason to add DePaul to a league that already had ND in it.

Nice try.

[xu95]

Tastes like the MCC.

Replace Richmond for Duquesne. Rhode Island for Providence. Temple for Seton Hall. dayton for DePaul (makes me vomit to write that). UMASS for SLU.

Here we go again.

xu95

[_LH]

Here we go again.

xu95

Here we go again...what?

[xu95]

I'm simply not wrong.

EVER.

xu95

[xu95]

Here we go again...what?

I am just waiting for the argument that the A10 is better for us than the Big East.

xu95

[_LH]

I am just waiting for the argument that the A10 is better for us than the Big East.

xu95

Who made that argument?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I'm simply not wrong. I never said McGwire didn't use steroids and your link does not prove otherwise.

I think ND would carry as much of the Chicago TV market as DePaul would and see no reason to add DePaul to a league that already had ND in it.

Nice try.

I don't understand how you're not wrong for the words you type that say "McGwire didn't use steroids". That baffles me.

As for ND. Sure, itd be nice to have ND. But as a backup option I'd rather have Depaul than no Chicago market at all

Bad try

[_LH]

I don't understand how you're not wrong for the words you type that say "McGwire didn't use steroids". That baffles me.

As for ND. Sure, itd be nice to have ND. But as a backup option I'd rather have Depaul rather than no Chicago market at all

Bad try

I never said McGwire didn't use steroid. Not once. That is how I'm right. I may have said there was no evidence that he did back when it was discussed but that is not the same as saying HE DID NOT.

I never said I don't want any presense in the Chicago market.

It was a bad try by you.

[xu95]

Who made that argument?

I don't know......just some guy name _Luxottica Hooker.

http://www.xavierhoops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17333

xu95

[_LH]

I don't know......just some guy name _Luxottica Hooker.

http://www.xavierhoops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17333

xu95

Nope. Just read the thread and I did not make that argument but nice try.

[wkrq59]

I am quoting xudash but this question is for everyone. Suppose that the BE splits and the basketball schools go there own way. Suppose further that they begin looking around for schools to join them. They look at Temple, Dayton, whomever else, and they look at XU. Suppose further that our "other sports" are not as well funded, scholarshipped, etc. as they would like. Assuming we are an attractrive draw due to our television market, basketball success (men's and women's), and committmen to athletics, are the decision makers for this hypothetical conference going to dismiss us on the basis our other sports are lacking or is it more likely they would come to us and say "Hey, we really want you, we like what you've done with basketball, we want your TV market, we love your rivalry with UC, we love that you are willing to spend money, and we want you to join us, but we need you to committ to spending "x" amount of dollars on your "other sports"? I would have to guess the latter. That being the case, wouldn't we be willing to spend the money to join a league that would be less brutal than the Big East but far superior to the A10, and would almost certainly ensure we would get a huge chunk of that money back almost instantly from TV deals and indirectly from exposure, recruiting advantage (which brings more money eventually), etc?

It seems to me that we are an obvious and attractive enough of an option that we would be approached and asked to committ the dollars. It is hard for me to imagine we would not be willing to spend the money.
principal

Any conference, especially one for basketball,that has UC as a member will NEVER have Xavier as a member. UC would block it. The BE would not seek Xavier for an all-hoops conference because even though it might hold Xavier in high regard, there would be too many objections. Right now their attitude is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and that attitude will stay for the foreseeable future.
:logo::shield::sword:

[waggy]

Right now their attitude is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and that attitude will stay for the foreseeable future.

I basically agree with this because the BCS association the non-football schools enjoy has a huge advantage in perception. On the other hand most of them are getting buried anyway. This mini-fiasco with Villanova indicates everyone may not be on the same page. There is obviously a contingent that wants to expand/strengthen football. If everyone is in agreement is one question. And what are the bball only schools willing to sacrifice to maintain that BCS association is another.

[xudash]

Any conference, especially one for basketball,that has UC as a member will NEVER have Xavier as a member. UC would block it. The BE would not seek Xavier for an all-hoops conference because even though it might hold Xavier in high regard, there would be too many objections. Right now their attitude is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and that attitude will stay for the foreseeable future.
:logo::shield::sword:

q, I believe we're all in agreement regarding a BE that still has UC in it - any scenario involving UC in the BE means that there would be no opportunity for Xavier to become a member in the BE. Of course, any such scenario means that the football and hoops schools agree to stick together.

As far as their current attitude is concerned, there is a faction within the BE football schools that want to solve for football. Whether they believe the current hybrid BE is broken or not, they do understand that the BE is getting left in the dust financially as a result of what the other conferences are now accomplishing with TV rights, especially given what the Big XII just announced. More to the point, it may not be broken as a hybrid conference, but it isn't optimal as a football conference.

At present, it appears that Nova has lost its chance. There certainly is less pressure to deal them in now that TCU has joined. And Nova would not be regarded as a powerful addition were the BE agree to let them in; Nova's facility solution is a joke when considered against other BCS venues.

Frankly, I used to take the position that I would be okay with the A10 if the A10 would handle its deadwood. I don't believe that anymore, especially now that collegiate sports media rights are becoming more aligned with their true value.

We need to optimize Xavier's position in all this. Getting to a BE hoops-centric league would do that, especially given that ESPN would have a vested interest in managing that property up, even if the overall contract value goes down due to the loss of UConn, Syracuse, etc.

Now I'll be blunt, if LaSalle weren't already bad enough on the court, it isn't doing anything worthy to warrant its continued affiliation with Xavier off the court - the following is funny, but it isn't really funny:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/12/jack-rappaport-la-salle-u_n_847916.html?icid=main|htmlws-main-w|dl6|sec3_lnk2|209582

[Professor X]

Okay this is what I want:

Duquesne
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John’s
Villanova

Butler
DePaul
Marquette
Notre Dame
Saint Louis
Xavier



SLU bitches about travel in the A-10 right now. Not sure if throwing them Butler, DePaul, ND, Marquette, Xavier is gonna be enough of a Midwest presence for them. If this were to come about, it would probably be as part of mutliple conference shakeups, and I would see them leaning toward finding a home that is less geographically spread out. MVC and SLU have had eyes for each other for some time now...

That said, who knows? I mean that puts about half the conference in a reasonable range, and it would be higher profile than either the A-10 or the MVC so maybe it would be a perfect fit.

[Professor X]

Also, even though I'm late to the party, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents on DePaul...


I disagree about DePaul. ND would carry the "Chicago Market". Does anyone in Chicago watch DePaul basketball? Taking teams based on TV markets (Fordham) that no one watches in that market (DePaul) is not wise.

I don't really think it's fair to compare them to Fordham. They are the biggest Catholic school in the country, historically their program is decent. There ARE DePaul fans in Chicago, and if they fielded even a mediocre team, Chicago would probably follow them. They have the resources to compete, and it really wouldn't take much to turn that into a halfway decent, program. Give them a mediocre team, a few local rivalries or higher profile games (Northwestern, ND, Illinois?) at the United Center, nab a couple local recruits and voila! And if they were smart they'd couple this minor rise with a local marketing program similar to what Northwestern did recently with football, coinciding with their game vs Illinois at Wrigley Field (Northwestern: Chicago's Big Ten team). Northwestern hasn't really had much to brag about as a program either but they have a pretty good local fan base. Okay, okay, they also have football and are obviously more notable academically, but you could see a similar attempt to build local support working at DePaul. The question is, if they haven't attempted something similar already, how committed are they to the sport as an administration? Or are they just satisfied with taking their little slice of the Big East pie every year without doing anything notable themselves?

[waggy]

SLU bitches about travel in the A-10 right now.

More accurately, Majerus bitches about travel. And there is some belief that it stemmed from losing charted flights that were originally promised, but dropped due to the economy. SLU would happily accept that conference.

[Mrs. Garrett]

Also, even though I'm late to the party, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents on DePaul...



I don't really think it's fair to compare them to Fordham. They are the biggest Catholic school in the country, historically their program is decent. There ARE DePaul fans in Chicago, and if they fielded even a mediocre team, Chicago would probably follow them. They have the resources to compete, and it really wouldn't take much to turn that into a halfway decent, program. Give them a mediocre team, a few local rivalries or higher profile games (Northwestern, ND, Illinois?) at the United Center, nab a couple local recruits and voila! And if they were smart they'd couple this minor rise with a local marketing program similar to what Northwestern did recently with football, coinciding with their game vs Illinois at Wrigley Field (Northwestern: Chicago's Big Ten team). Northwestern hasn't really had much to brag about as a program either but they have a pretty good local fan base. Okay, okay, they also have football and are obviously more notable academically, but you could see a similar attempt to build local support working at DePaul. The question is, if they haven't attempted something similar already, how committed are they to the sport as an administration? Or are they just satisfied with taking their little slice of the Big East pie every year without doing anything notable themselves?

I think the $2 mil per year DePaul is throwing at OP is a sign they are committed. All it takes is a little success and the Allstate Arena will be packed.

[XULucho27]

I think the $2 mil per year DePaul is throwing at OP is a sign they are committed. All it takes is a little success and the Allstate Arena will be packed.

It would also help if they played near campus. Going out to O'Hare for games has to be a pain in the ass.

[Professor X]

More accurately, Majerus bitches about travel. And there is some belief that it stemmed from losing charted flights that were originally promised, but dropped due to the economy. SLU would happily accept that conference.

Very true. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Mrs. Garrett]

It would also help if they played near campus. Going out to O'Hare for games has to be a pain in the ass.

I totally agree. One of the reason I gave up my season tickets.

Based on the real estate situation in Lincoln Park, it will probably be a long time before that happens. They blew it when they built McGrath arena and the Ray Meyer center. They could have built an on campus facility similar to the Cintas Center, easily accessible to the CTA. Instead they wound up with a gym that only sits around 3k and a fitness center.

But when they are winning the Allstate is packed.

[Professor X]

I think the $2 mil per year DePaul is throwing at OP is a sign they are committed. All it takes is a little success and the Allstate Arena will be packed.

No argument there. I think OP could have the program looking up in years to come. That said, playing in Allstate has never made sense to me. This might be a chicken/egg type thing, but IMO a bigger sign of commitment might be upgrading facilities aka not playing in a venue that wasn't a bitch to get to. They are a city university and basically play in the suburbs. Loyola, UIC and even Chicago St. all have on-campus arenas. I understand they've played there for 30 years, so I obviously don't see this changing anytime soon but it just seems to me there has to be a better way of doing things.

[Professor X]

I totally agree. One of the reason I gave up my season tickets.

Based on the real estate situation in Lincoln Park, it will probably be a long time before that happens. They blew it when they built McGrath arena and the Ray Meyer center. They could have built an on campus facility similar to the Cintas Center, easily accessible to the CTA. Instead they wound up with a gym that only sits around 3k and a fitness center.

But when they are winning the Allstate is packed.

JW, have they ever tried playing any higher-profile games at the UC?

[Mrs. Garrett]

JW, have they ever tried playing any higher-profile games at the UC?

Yeah. When I had season tickets, it was the Q. Richardson, Bobby Simmons era. I remember playing Duke and Kansas there. Problem with the UC is they already have the Bulls and Blackhawks. And although closer to campus than Allstate, it's still pretty far off campus. Much further than the Gardens were from X.

I've heard some sites mentioned for a new facility, but unless they can get a deal the land alone could cost $10 -20 million in that neighborhood (if not more). I say build over the soccer/softball field at the Fullerton L stop, but it won't happen.

[XUFan09]

More accurately, Majerus bitches about travel. And there is some belief that it stemmed from losing charted flights that were originally promised, but dropped due to the economy. SLU would happily accept that conference.

From an academic perspective, I think he makes a fair argument. Extensive travel (complicated further by a lack of charter flights) makes for a tough situation to handle academically, something that you have to give the big oaf credit for caring about.

[muskienick]

SLU bitches about travel in the A-10 right now. Not sure if throwing them Butler, DePaul, ND, Marquette, Xavier is gonna be enough of a Midwest presence for them. If this were to come about, it would probably be as part of mutliple conference shakeups, and I would see them leaning toward finding a home that is less geographically spread out. MVC and SLU have had eyes for each other for some time now...

That said, who knows? I mean that puts about half the conference in a reasonable range, and it would be higher profile than either the A-10 or the MVC so maybe it would be a perfect fit.

In Waggy's 2-division, 12-team Conference with a definite West and a definite East, SLU would only have to make three eastern trips per season. That shouldn't be a problem at all.This season they made six trips to a coast: 5 to the east coast (including their Duke game) and 1 to Portland Oregon. Four of those to the east coast were league games. So the Waggy-type league would actually make sense for SLU if travel was their big problem!

[xudash]

I don't like being okay on the A10. I'm not sure what that means, but I'm afraid of what it could mean in the long-term for X and its athletic programs.

TV PACKAGE FOLKS! TV PACKAGE!!

http://espn.go.com/blog/bigeast/post/_/id/19319/report-says-big-east-begins-tv-negotiations

[waggy]

TV PACKAGE FOLKS! TV PACKAGE!!

http://espn.go.com/blog/bigeast/post/_/id/19319/report-says-big-east-begins-tv-negotiations


ESPN’s offer has created a division among the conference’s schools. Some want to rebuff ESPN’s offer and take the conference’s media rights to the open market. The reason: The amount of potential bidders in the market has helped other leagues increase their media rights more than they initially expected.

You have to wonder what the motivation is of anyone who is against putting the package out on the open market.

[xubrew]

You have to wonder what the motivation is of anyone who is against putting the package out on the open market.

I've always wondered the same thing. I just don't get why everyone seems to be so enamoured with ESPN. I guess the motivation would be that if they take it to the open market, they may wind up someplace other than ESPN. I for one don't see what's wrong with that, but apparently I'm in the minority.

[muskienick]

I've always wondered the same thing. I just don't get why everyone seems to be so enamoured with ESPN. I guess the motivation would be that if they take it to the open market, they may wind up someplace other than ESPN. I for one don't see what's wrong with that, but apparently I'm in the minority.

Look what ESPN did for the Big East over the last 30+ years! And the formative years of the ESPN-Big East pact was when there was only one ESPN channel. If a new Waggy-type Conference or a new Big East were born as a collection of highly respected basketball-driven universities with good home playing venues, wide media appeal, nearby international airports, and somewhat strong fan bases, ESPN (or another similar family of sports channels, like FOX) could be waiting on the doorstep with a lucrative contract that would make the new league an instant hit.

Consider...

East
Georgetown
Providence
Richmond
St. John's
Seton Hall
Villanova

West
Butler
Creighton (or Dayton?)
DePaul
Marquette
St. Louis
Xavier

The A-10 could return to its 10-team roots or (if Creighton were the choice in the West instead of UD), it could possibly pick up a VCU, ODU, GMU, Boston U, Siena, Detroit, Valpo, Loyola (IL), Cleveland St. or Canisius to make a 12-team, 2-division Conference that would be more balanced (scheduling-wise) than the current 14-team setup.

[xudash]

The following response was made by a UConn fan on Marquette's board to the ESPN article about ESPN/BE TV negotiations:

"UConn fan here.

I tend to agree with you. Also, this story leaked today. ESPN's opening offer was $110-130MM annually for the league, and they came to the Big East with this over 2 years before the last deal was going to expire. From a negotiated standpoint, ESPN basically gave up. You might as well turn your cards over and then start bluffing. If the next media package comes in less than $150 million, I will be shocked. I think it will get close to $200 million per year, including Tier 2 rights, syndication, and CBS. Those are STAGGERING numbers for a league that is currently living off a $36MM/year deal with ESPN and about $8MM/year from CBS.

$200MM/year means that the all-sports schools are probably getting around $15MM/year and the basketball schools are getting about $8MM/year. That is a lot of freaking money, even by college athletics standards. And $250 million is on the table if Comcast gets desperate. Once the next media deal or deals are inked, they will be very long-term, and they will be way too rich for anyone to ever walk away from.

My theory on Villanova is that Donoghue was looking for a way out of the upgrade once he saw ESPN's opening bid, because he knew the league was never splitting, and if it wasn't there was no need to spend $30+ million to upgrade the football program. So he gave the Big East an offer they couldn't accept, and everyone got to move on."

Imagine a league arrangement where basketball schools are getting $8 million per year. Yes, Providence and Seton Hall, to name an obvious two, cruising along with fat paycheck after fat paycheck, benefiting from being in a good association.

Why on God's earth do we tolerate the likes of LaSalle and Fordham if we think we're going to be stuck in this league? Good luck convincing me that "stuck" is the wrong word in light of all the various BCS TV negotiations that are going on out there.

It's not that it's the end of the world. It is about opportunity cost - what could have been for Xavier as an institution overall. This is about perception and market position, among other things. Those people who don't believe rankings are important don't understand that. Those people who don't care about the "mid-major" tag don't get it.

It's the difference between Xavier being associated with a Georgetown versus Xavier being stuck with a LaSalle.

[wkrq59]

Once and for all can we please forget about the new leagues, quit bashing
Fordham and LaSalle and start living in the present and looking toward a bright future? Please?
For the last five or six years I have read the woeful, whistful comments on what life would be like if Xavier were in the Big East. We moaned about the horrible programs of Fordham , LaSalle, Duquesne and St. Bonaventure. In the past two or three years two of those schools, Duquesne and St. B have upgraded their programs to respectability.
Seriously, it's time to stop sleeping with the Maybe Sisters, Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda and Mighta who never got l..ed, or achieved anything. The A10 is what it is and can be. It has served Xavier well and continues to do so. And should in the future.
Let's face another fact. We continue to get our panties in a bunch because some UC troll or other calls us Mid-Major. At last look, two mid-majors, who have been part of the "Bracket Busters" for several years played each other in the NCAA Final Four. And the likes of George Mason, Northern Iowa, and others have acquitted themselves well in the past few years.
For now and the foreseeable future, the BE is going to remain the BE, without Xavier or any of the other teams in the Pipe Dream Conference, the All-Catholic League of Legendary teams.
While there is nothing wrong with dreaming and wondering what it would be like to be in the Big 6, 7, 8, 9, conferences, to constantly live there and besmirch the A10 is just plain silly.
People, we've got a lot to be proud of, especially in Xavier's five regular season titles. Why can't we act like it?
Damn it, "We are Xavier." And a major force in the A10. Critics of our league envy our success. Let's stop agreeing with them and celebrate our achievements and those of our conference.
Oh, and Go Muskies.
:logo::shield::sword:

[xavierj]

The following response was made by a UConn fan on Marquette's board to the ESPN article about ESPN/BE TV negotiations:

"UConn fan here.

I tend to agree with you. Also, this story leaked today. ESPN's opening offer was $110-130MM annually for the league, and they came to the Big East with this over 2 years before the last deal was going to expire. From a negotiated standpoint, ESPN basically gave up. You might as well turn your cards over and then start bluffing. If the next media package comes in less than $150 million, I will be shocked. I think it will get close to $200 million per year, including Tier 2 rights, syndication, and CBS. Those are STAGGERING numbers for a league that is currently living off a $36MM/year deal with ESPN and about $8MM/year from CBS.

$200MM/year means that the all-sports schools are probably getting around $15MM/year and the basketball schools are getting about $8MM/year. That is a lot of freaking money, even by college athletics standards. And $250 million is on the table if Comcast gets desperate. Once the next media deal or deals are inked, they will be very long-term, and they will be way too rich for anyone to ever walk away from.

My theory on Villanova is that Donoghue was looking for a way out of the upgrade once he saw ESPN's opening bid, because he knew the league was never splitting, and if it wasn't there was no need to spend $30+ million to upgrade the football program. So he gave the Big East an offer they couldn't accept, and everyone got to move on."

Imagine a league arrangement where basketball schools are getting $8 million per year. Yes, Providence and Seton Hall, to name an obvious two, cruising along with fat paycheck after fat paycheck, benefiting from being in a good association.

Why on God's earth do we tolerate the likes of LaSalle and Fordham if we think we're going to be stuck in this league? Good luck convincing me that "stuck" is the wrong word in light of all the various BCS TV negotiations that are going on out there.

It's not that it's the end of the world. It is about opportunity cost - what could have been for Xavier as an institution overall. This is about perception and market position, among other things. Those people who don't believe rankings are important don't understand that. Those people who don't care about the "mid-major" tag don't get it.

It's the difference between Xavier being associated with a Georgetown versus Xavier being stuck with a LaSalle.

Why would ESPN shell out so much money for a glorified MAC football conference? Basketball does not make any money around the country anyway so it would seem they would just be throwing away money. Football powers are the only money makers. Texas makes more money on football then just about all college basketball teams combined.

[Masterofreality]

Once and for all can we please forget about the new leagues, quit bashing
Fordham and LaSalle and start living in the present and looking toward a bright future? Please?
For the last five or six years I have read the woeful, whistful comments on what life would be like if Xavier were in the Big East. We moaned about the horrible programs of Fordham , LaSalle, Duquesne and St. Bonaventure. In the past two or three years two of those schools, Duquesne and St. B have upgraded their programs to respectability.
Seriously, it's time to stop sleeping with the Maybe Sisters, Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda and Mighta who never got l..ed, or achieved anything. The A10 is what it is and can be. It has served Xavier well and continues to do so. And should in the future.
Let's face another fact. We continue to get our panties in a bunch because some UC troll or other calls us Mid-Major. At last look, two mid-majors, who have been part of the "Bracket Busters" for several years played each other in the NCAA Final Four. And the likes of George Mason, Northern Iowa, and others have acquitted themselves well in the past few years.
For now and the foreseeable future, the BE is going to remain the BE, without Xavier or any of the other teams in the Pipe Dream Conference, the All-Catholic League of Legendary teams.
While there is nothing wrong with dreaming and wondering what it would be like to be in the Big 6, 7, 8, 9, conferences, to constantly live there and besmirch the A10 is just plain silly.
People, we've got a lot to be proud of, especially in Xavier's five regular season titles. Why can't we act like it?
Damn it, "We are Xavier." And a major force in the A10. Critics of our league envy our success. Let's stop agreeing with them and celebrate our achievements and those of our conference.
Oh, and Go Muskies.
:logo::shield::sword:

Q. In many ways I agree with you, but Xavier, or the other 11 productive or semi-productive members of the A-10 should not have to continue to be saddled with the LaSalle and Fordham anchors who do nothing but take money from the accomplishments of others and have not contributed one single dime to the proceeds- now for over 15 years. I'm even OK with Olean Welding. They at least get 5,000 a game to their building and have been to some tournament over the last decade. Duquesne has promise.

I'm sorry. LaSalle and Fordham have lousy facilities, lousy athletic administrations and add NOTHING. No one in New York or Philly even know they exist. They have had adequate time to build up to a respectable level and they are either unable or unwilling to do so. Enough. send them to the MAAC where they really belong.

Xavier staying in the A-10? I'm Ok with it, but kick those pikers out. OUTZEE!!!!!

[xudash]

q, this is an area that we'll just have to disagree on.

The fact of that matter is that things do change. The A10 was a wonderful opportunity for us when it came along in the mid-90's. By around that time, plus a couple years, we were reading about the A10 giving the BE at that time a run for its money. It has served us well. But things change.

What is changing is the valuation of sports properties in the media. More to the point, the market is beginning to more accurately value the broadcast rights for collegiate revenue sports - football and basketball. The market is having its hand forced by the BCS conferences, especially by the BTN - a JV between the conference and Fox. As a result, we've had a rather steady stream of announcements regarding the SEC's package, the Pac Ten's deal, the ACC's better but less than stellar response to the SEC deal, Texas's standalone deal, and now the Big XII announcement.

This isn't about Duquesne or SBU turning it around, specifically. The latter school, particularly because of its size and location, will have a limit to its potential anyway. This should become about moving in a direction to do what Xavier needs to do for itself to maximize its brand.

I believe in continuous improvement. The A10 can be improved, period, end of story. And the stakes have gotten higher because of the dollars that are floating around out there now.

j, that was a UConn fan's response. He'll be a little more than jaded, given that he supports a very mediocre, unaccomplished program that has only been playing big boy football for about a decade now. Nonetheless, there will be upward pressure on the BE's contract value. We'll have to see how all that plays out.

Otherwise, I'm not sure about your statement, regarding basketball not making any money. It is pretty obvious that Xavier makes a lot of money on basketball.

[xudash]

Change IS constant:

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/extras/colleges_blog/2011/04/umass_moving_to.html?p1=Upbox_links

It's a matter of time until they go all sports with this move.

By all means, let's hang around with LaSalle while UMass positions itself for an eventual exit.

[xubrew]

The only way to not hang around with La Salle would be to leave the conference. They're full members. It's virtually impossible to remove them. People who advocate for kicking fordham and La Salle out need to realize that it's kind of like saying the state of Ohio should kick Cleveland out. They can't. I understand wanting to disassociate with them, but it isn't as simple as people seem to think.

[xavierj]

Otherwise, I'm not sure about your statement, regarding basketball not making any money. It is pretty obvious that Xavier makes a lot of money on basketball.

Yes Xavier makes about 4 to 5 million a year which is awesome. Xavier is in the minority in college basketball that is making much money and compared to football it is not even close. TV wants football, not basketball. Louisville makes the most in basketball, roughly 16 million a year. As a whole the 338, or however many teams now make up division 1 mens basketball, net a profit of around $100,000,000 which looks great, but when it gets broken down not so much.

Now look at football. Just a few teams; Texas $60 million, Nebraska $50 million, Penn St. $50 million and Notre Dame $40 million. That is $200,000,000 in profits from 4 teams and that does not even include teams like Ohio St. LSU, USC, Alabama, Michigan and Florida who you know rake it in. Yikes.

See what I mean? It's a football world and the big football money makers don't play in the Big East so why would anyone shell out so much money for their TV rights? It doesn't sound like smart business.

[xudash]

The only way to not hang around with La Salle would be to leave the conference. They're full members. It's virtually impossible to remove them. People who advocate for kicking fordham and La Salle out need to realize that it's kind of like saying the state of Ohio should kick Cleveland out. They can't. I understand wanting to disassociate with them, but it isn't as simple as people seem to think.

I don't think it's simple at all. They would be gone already had it been simple to do.

An organization can change. Via some form of collective, democratic process, a majority can form and demand material upgrades for the good of the conference. That can take place in one of two ways:

1. Constructive approach: make the demands high for the purpose of forcing the school to come up to par with other programs in the conference that actually do invest; or

2. Formality approach: make the demands so high that the targeted school can't comply, giving cause to remove them.

Example of the first approach - spend $15 million like St. Joe's to upgrade Gola.

Example of the second approach - you're the third wheel in town, you need a Cintas Center, that you have to commit to now, constructed in 36 months, or get out.

Xavier has done everything it could possibly do to maximize the value of its basketball program, including moving to the A10 originally. All of what it has accomplished is reflected and partially evidenced by the Forbes ranking the program carries with respect to its value. I'm not about pushing a panic button here; I want for Xavier to be able to respond within relative reason on this specific issue. We can't do that at present.

The stakes are increasing. There is no way around it. I hope for some amount of value-added change in the area of Xavier's television broadcast revenue instead of being content with the A10 "as-is" while the Brinks trucks roll towards a bunch of BCS schools.

[xudash]

Yes Xavier makes about 4 to 5 million a year which is awesome. Xavier is in the minority in college basketball that is making much money and compared to football it is not even close. TV wants football, not basketball. Louisville makes the most in basketball, roughly 16 million a year. As a whole the 338, or however many teams now make up division 1 mens basketball, net a profit of around $100,000,000 which looks great, but when it gets broken down not so much.

Now look at football. Just a few teams; Texas $60 million, Nebraska $50 million, Penn St. $50 million and Notre Dame $40 million. That is $200,000,000 in profits from 4 teams and that does not even include teams like Ohio St. LSU, USC, Alabama, Michigan and Florida who you know rake it in. Yikes.

See what I mean? It's a football world and the big football money makers don't play in the Big East so why would anyone shell out so much money for their TV rights? It doesn't sound like smart business.

I agree with you completely on the football issue. I hope the UConn guy is fooling himself. I agree with you that broadcast rights for Rutgers versus the BE's Florida directional school isn't going to rank up there with Ohio State versus Penn State, etc., let alone The Game.

What could keep the BE together as a hybrid is that the combination of football and basketball money to that conference will be the best it can do as a hybrid. If the football schools in the BE add a Houston, etc. and go to the networks with that kind of scenario, perhaps they get enough football revenue, still like the basketball dollars associated with that deal, and blow out hoops schools from the basketball denominator.

It may be wishful thinking on my part, but I don't believe the shifting is over yet.

[xudash]

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2011/04/18/Media/ESPN-Big-East.aspx

[muskienick]

Once and for all can we please forget about the new leagues, quit bashing
Fordham and LaSalle and start living in the present and looking toward a bright future? Please?
For the last five or six years I have read the woeful, whistful comments on what life would be like if Xavier were in the Big East. We moaned about the horrible programs of Fordham , LaSalle, Duquesne and St. Bonaventure. In the past two or three years two of those schools, Duquesne and St. B have upgraded their programs to respectability.
Seriously, it's time to stop sleeping with the Maybe Sisters, Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda and Mighta who never got l..ed, or achieved anything. The A10 is what it is and can be. It has served Xavier well and continues to do so. And should in the future.
Let's face another fact. We continue to get our panties in a bunch because some UC troll or other calls us Mid-Major. At last look, two mid-majors, who have been part of the "Bracket Busters" for several years played each other in the NCAA Final Four. And the likes of George Mason, Northern Iowa, and others have acquitted themselves well in the past few years.
For now and the foreseeable future, the BE is going to remain the BE, without Xavier or any of the other teams in the Pipe Dream Conference, the All-Catholic League of Legendary teams.
While there is nothing wrong with dreaming and wondering what it would be like to be in the Big 6, 7, 8, 9, conferences, to constantly live there and besmirch the A10 is just plain silly.
People, we've got a lot to be proud of, especially in Xavier's five regular season titles. Why can't we act like it?
Damn it, "We are Xavier." And a major force in the A10. Critics of our league envy our success. Let's stop agreeing with them and celebrate our achievements and those of our conference.
Oh, and Go Muskies.
:logo::shield::sword:

q,

Musing about a new league for Xavier is not only fun but also a form of raising the ante --- you don't make improvements in your circumstances without first setting your sights higher.

Furthermore, I fail to see why suggesting that Fordham and LaSalle go away or that the present A-10 isn't the best it could be is silly. As a matter of fact, the A-10 would be markedly better by contracting down to its best 12 or 10 members. Time will do some contracting but, unfortunately, it'll be the likes of Charlotte, UMass, Temple, St. Louis, and/or Xavier that will likely move on to what they perceive is "greener pastures." The dregs of the League will likely hold onto their memberships for as long as possible to reap the financial benefits they receive through the efforts of other league programs like XU, Temple, Richmond, etc.

You also suggest that by aspiring toward membership in a better conference, we who do so are "dissing" the A-10. I don't once recall any person like Waggy, xudash, or muskienick decry our move to the A-10, belittle our series of League Championships, or complain of how little it has done for our image. Instead, I feel that such posters merely want to promote the Muskies to an even higher level of respect within the D-1 College Basketball scene. Like it or not, as long as we (the A-10 generally speaking and Xavier in particular) are tied to the likes of Fordham (with its horrible facilities and despicable history as a member of the A-10) and LaSalle (with its third-rate - at best - status in Philly among League members, its failure to seriously challenge for any A-10 team honors during its tenure in the League, and its poor home playing facilities), we will never receive the level of respect we otherwise deserve.

By aspiring to a higher level of Conference play, I see us trying to fulfill "The American Dream." Frankly, sitting back and being content with our situation is somewhat a cop-out and bowing to complacency. We have what many believe to be among the best AD's in the Country. It is partly because of Mike Bobinski being our AD that I have realistic hopes for Xavier to eventually be a proactive "player" in assembling a conference of like-minded, high-achieving mix of Eastern and Midwestern universities whose athletics are driven by top-level D-1 Basketball.

Sometimes, what seems doable, sensible, and most beneficial for a group of such colleges in the long-run is just that. That sentiment applies to the 9 to 12 colleges that eventually will form the Big East Football Conference as well as to the "best" 9-12 basketball-driven universities in the east and midwest (with "best" meaning a combination of location, facilities, commitment, media, and potential).

[xu95]

THe point is, we can pontificate (like that word), all we want about the awesome conferences we can form. It won't do one bit of good. I highly doubt the ADs and Presidents of the A-10 schools are reading the Xavier messageboard and saying "you know what, I never thought about it but that Fordham sucks" and Mike Bobinski is not reading this thread and saying "wow, I never thought about how awesome it would be to form a conference with Georgetown".

Honestly they get tired. I know it is the off season and we are bored, but we are not switching conferences. It doesn't matter how many different scenarios we think of and how many different forms of divisions we come up with. It isn't happening. I like most of you guys (and gals) but each off season it is "how great would it be for us to be in the same conference as the Lakers, Hornets, and the Harlem Globetrotters".

As for kicking teams out, besides Temple in the BE (who was only a conditional member) please name me the last time a full member of a conference got kicked out. It hasn't happened and it won't happen in the A-10.

xu95

[muskienick]

THe point is, we can pontificate (like that word), all we want about the awesome conferences we can form. It won't do one bit of good. I highly doubt the ADs and Presidents of the A-10 schools are reading the Xavier messageboard and saying "you know what, I never thought about it but that Fordham sucks" and Mike Bobinski is not reading this thread and saying "wow, I never thought about how awesome it would be to form a conference with Georgetown".

Honestly they get tired. I know it is the off season and we are bored, but we are not switching conferences. It doesn't matter how many different scenarios we think of and how many different forms of divisions we come up with. It isn't happening. I like most of you guys (and gals) but each off season it is "how great would it be for us to be in the same conference as the Lakers, Hornets, and the Harlem Globetrotters".

As for kicking teams out, besides Temple in the BE (who was only a conditional member) please name me the last time a full member of a conference got kicked out. It hasn't happened and it won't happen in the A-10.

xu95


We are not "pontificating" (although I like the term also); we are musing, daydreaming.
I agree that AD Bobinski and other AD's don't visit this and other boards for tips on how to do their jobs or how to think. But I can't help but believe that he and his peers aspire to some of the same things that we simple fans express in some of these threads. And I also have to think that our AD spends a little time occasionally trying to devise ways to make them happen.
And I can't speak to the motivation or suggestions made by others on improving the League by contraction, but my take on it has been to create a situation where the traditional "bottom feeders" like LaSalle and Fordham want, on their own, to relocate to a Conference in which they can actually experience some success on the floor and move on to the post season every once in a while. I used the term "go away" rather than "kick them out."

[xudash]

THe point is, we can pontificate (like that word), all we want about the awesome conferences we can form. It won't do one bit of good. I highly doubt the ADs and Presidents of the A-10 schools are reading the Xavier messageboard and saying "you know what, I never thought about it but that Fordham sucks" and Mike Bobinski is not reading this thread and saying "wow, I never thought about how awesome it would be to form a conference with Georgetown".

Honestly they get tired. I know it is the off season and we are bored, but we are not switching conferences. It doesn't matter how many different scenarios we think of and how many different forms of divisions we come up with. It isn't happening. I like most of you guys (and gals) but each off season it is "how great would it be for us to be in the same conference as the Lakers, Hornets, and the Harlem Globetrotters".

As for kicking teams out, besides Temple in the BE (who was only a conditional member) please name me the last time a full member of a conference got kicked out. It hasn't happened and it won't happen in the A-10.

xu95

You're right. Nothing ever changes in college sports. Nothing never, ever changes.

The Big Ten will always have ten tea....oh, well that has changed a little.

The ACC always has been and always will be about basketba...uh, football; well, as far as now and the past is concerned, nothing has changed: the ACC is about football.

The ancient, never changing BE is a picture of calm and stability.

.................................................. ................

Xavier will not be in the same conference as LaSalle within 60 months.

BTW, pontificate is a great word, but that isn't what has been going on around here. We may all care deeply about Xavier and the well being of our favorite sports team, but some of us believe we see a dangerous trend on the business side of the sport that X needs to find a way address.

[xu95]

Nick and Dash, I agree with some of the points both of you have made. I do believe Xavier will not be where it is now, 60 months from now. It will not be however because a school was kicked out of a league.

Nick, I am positive that Bobinski has floated some ideas to other ADs about what it would take to make the A-10 better. I think he has even implied that before in speeches he has given. However, it will be nearly impossible to get enough votes to make any kind of substantial changes to the bylaws of the conference. Hell, St. Bonaventure walked away from their last two games and they didn't even get a slap on the wrist.

Northwestern has been sucking it up in the Big 10 for about 758 years, yet not an ounce of talk about kicking them out.

Hell, Vanderbilt doesn't even have an athletic department anymore. Their football and basketball teams have been lumped in with the rec sports for normal students. Not a single conversation about them getting kicked out of the SEC.

Conferences add schools all the time. THey don't get rid of any of them.

xu95

[principal]

This may be a dumb question, but what prevents X getting together with a few other universities, some current A10 members and some outside the conference, and forming a new league? I know it would not be easy, but why can't it be done? You don't invite Fordham and Lasalle to the new league and bam, you have your new and improved A10, it just goes by a different name. Is this sort of idea feasible? If it fails or is found out, what is the worst thing that could happen? Is the only downside losing the autobid? Or would it soil our reputation altogether? It sounds like the A10 wouldn't kick us out, or would that change under such a scenario?

EDIT: I guess such a conference would initially have zero TV contracts, but couldn't that be worked out rather quickly, or not?

[LA Muskie]

This may be a dumb question, but what prevents X getting together with a few other universities, some current A10 members and some outside the conference, and forming a new league? I know it would not be easy, but why can't it be done? You don't invite Fordham and Lasalle to the new league and bam, you have your new and improved A10, it just goes by a different name. Is this sort of idea feasible? If it fails or is found out, what is the worst thing that could happen? Is the only downside losing the autobid? Or would it soil our reputation altogether? It sounds like the A10 wouldn't kick us out, or would that change under such a scenario?

EDIT: I guess such a conference would initially have zero TV contracts, but couldn't that be worked out rather quickly, or not?

31.3.4.2 Requirements—National Collegiate Championship.

To be eligible for automatic qualification in National Collegiate Championship, a member conference must meet the following general requirements: (Adopted: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/06)

(a) Have at least six active members that sponsor the applicable sport in any division (note: a provisional member in the process of becoming an NCAA member cannot be used to meet the requisite number);

(b) The six active members must have conducted conference competition together for the preceding two years in the applicable sport;

(c) There shall be no waivers of the two-year waiting period; and

(d) Any new member added to a conference that is eligible for an automatic bid shall be immediately eligible to represent the conference as the automatic qualifier.

[xudash]

It's not a dumb question.

LA provided a primary reason.

Another primary reason is the revenue sharing formula that exists in some fashion for the conference. More to the point, there are ongoing NCAA Tournament Units monies, much of which Xavier generated through its tournament success, that flow over multiple years. I suspect that, should a conference member decide to leave, it would forfeit its rights to its share of such distributions. In addition to that, exit fees may be involved.

We paid to get in. We would have to pay to get out. And we would lose some of the revenue we would otherwise be entitled to were we to leave. Other than that, it is a less than great deal financially.

[Masterofreality]

Northwestern has been sucking it up in the Big 10 for about 758 years, yet not an ounce of talk about kicking them out.

Hell, Vanderbilt doesn't even have an athletic department anymore. Their football and basketball teams have been lumped in with the rec sports for normal students. Not a single conversation about them getting kicked out of the SEC.

Conferences add schools all the time. THey don't get rid of any of them.

xu95

Northwestern has been to Football Bowl Games. Vanderbilt makes continual NCAA Basketball Tournaments and, I believe, won an NCAA Baseball championship. They even went to a couple of football bowl games.

All these things have occurred since Dezmine Wells was born.

LaSuck and F-m? Uh, nothing. Nada, zilch, zero.

[Juice]

Northwestern has been to Football Bowl Games. Vanderbilt makes continual NCAA Basketball Tournaments and, I believe, won an NCAA Baseball championship. They even went to a couple of football bowl games.

All these things have occurred since Dezmine Wells was born.

LaSuck and F-m? Uh, nothing. Nada, zilch, zero.

Plus Vanderbilt pulls up the academic rates for the rest of the SEC, and God knows they need the help.

[xu95]

Northwestern has been to Football Bowl Games. Vanderbilt makes continual NCAA Basketball Tournaments and, I believe, won an NCAA Baseball championship. They even went to a couple of football bowl games.

All these things have occurred since Dezmine Wells was born.

LaSuck and F-m? Uh, nothing. Nada, zilch, zero.

Everybody can pick and choose why a school deserves to be in a conference. I'm sure both Fordham and Lasalle have a good underwater basketweaving team or something. Bottom line is that Fordham and Lasalle could go 0-30 for the next 15 years and there is a 0% chance that they will get kicked out of the A10. It just isn't going to happen, no matter how much you would like it to.

xu95

[xudash]

Everybody can pick and choose why a school deserves to be in a conference. I'm sure both Fordham and Lasalle have a good underwater basketweaving team or something. Bottom line is that Fordham and Lasalle could go 0-30 for the next 15 years and there is a 0% chance that they will get kicked out of the A10. It just isn't going to happen, no matter how much you would like it to.

xu95

95, we're all entitled to our opinion and I respect yours. God knows that, at this point, all evidence appears to side with you on the topic of a program getting kicked out of a conference.

But I'll offer two thoughts, one based on your earlier post where you essentially cite crappy BCS teams as examples of teams that don't get kicked out of their conference, and the other based on your response in this post:

1. I think you need to consider that you can have a strong/stable conference, a strong/stable program in such a conference, or a less than competitive program in such conference (e.g. Vanderbilt in the SEC or Nwestern in the B10). The point is that there is less friction and virtually no calls for eliminating such weaker programs in BCS confernces like the SEC and the B10, because they're already wealthy, well-established entities. Each school in those conferences receive an eight digit distribution annually.
There is nothing to fix with them.

2. As for "could go 0-30 for the next 15 years and there is a 0% chance that they will get kicked out of the A10." I don't believe it for a minute. I know it's an extreme example - not too far off though, in the case of those two crap programs - but performance at that level would cause some kind of action with 3 to 5 years given the utter destructive influence both those teams would have on the other A10 program's RPI's, etc.

All evidence is with you at this point, in terms of the utter lack of wiggle room Xavier is afforded in working to address its conference affiliation problem. And we do have a problem, especially with respect to positioning for better television packages.

Before I get jumped again, the A10 has been good to Xavier. But it isn't the mid-90's anymore. Xavier continues to deliver its end with very solid success. The question is whether the league can deliver as well. It's in the hands of the Presidents of the schools.

[X-band '01]

Northwestern has been to Football Bowl Games. Vanderbilt makes continual NCAA Basketball Tournaments and, I believe, won an NCAA Baseball championship. They even went to a couple of football bowl games.

All these things have occurred since Dezmine Wells was born.

LaSuck and F-m? Uh, nothing. Nada, zilch, zero.

South Carolina would have been a better comparison - baseball is the one sport where they've consistently excelled and they finally broke through with a College World Series crown last year.

And for all the Cinderella talk that basketball gets, nobody ever mentions Fresno State when it comes to Cinderella champions. Their win a few years back would have been the equivalent of a 13 seed (or 14, 15, or 16 based on how the seeding went in the CWS) winning the NCAA Basketball tournament.

[xu95]

Dash, I am with you 100% that I want Xavier to be in a better conference. I just don't get too excited about all of the possibilities because

a) there will be no major conference shake-ups this offseason as far as basketball is concerned, and
b) teams just do not get kicked out of conferences

xu95

[_LH]

I know it was in a different sport and that Temple was only a member in the BE for football but how exactly did the BE kick Temple out.

For the record, I don't see the A10 kicking anyone out.

[xu95]

I know it was in a different sport and that Temple was only a member in the BE for football but how exactly did the BE kick Temple out.

For the record, I don't see the A10 kicking anyone out.

Temple was only a conditional member of the Big East. They didn't even have any voting rights.

xu95

[_LH]

Temple was only a conditional member of the Big East. They didn't even have any voting rights.

xu95

They were still a member and then kicked out. How did that happen?

[XULucho27]

They were still a member and then kicked out. How did that happen?

If I remember correctly they had conditional status only. A condition of that status was that the presidents of the other member Universities could vote on Temple's status.

In February 2001, the presidents of the universities held a meeting to address Temple's conditional status and ended up voting them out of the Big East.

At least that's what Google and my hazy memory tell me.

[_LH]

If I remember correctly they had conditional status only. A condition of that status was that the presidents of the other member Universities could vote on Temple's status.

In February 2001, the presidents of the universities held a meeting to address Temple's conditional status and ended up voting them out of the Big East.

At least that's what Google and my hazy memory tell me.

Thanks. I wish the A10 had only offered conditional status to LaSalle and Fordham back in 1995. Check that, I wish they wouldn't have offered any kind of membership to either.

[xubrew]

31.3.4.2 Requirements—National Collegiate Championship.

To be eligible for automatic qualification in National Collegiate Championship, a member conference must meet the following general requirements: (Adopted: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/06)

(a) Have at least six active members that sponsor the applicable sport in any division (note: a provisional member in the process of becoming an NCAA member cannot be used to meet the requisite number);

(b) The six active members must have conducted conference competition together for the preceding two years in the applicable sport;

(c) There shall be no waivers of the two-year waiting period; and

(d) Any new member added to a conference that is eligible for an automatic bid shall be immediately eligible to represent the conference as the automatic qualifier.

This statute has recently changed, and by recently I mean within the past two months. Now, all a conference needs to automatically qualify for championships is seven institutions that have been full members for eight years.

In other words, hypothetically if Xavier, Butler, Marquette, Creighton, Holy Cross, Belmont and Western Kentucky all banded together to form their own conference, they would have an automatic bid right away as of roughly two months ago.

Also, hypothetically, if a team like Northern Kentucky moved up to the Ohio Valley, they would be eligible for an automatic bid as soon as they completed the four years of transitional status. The reason is because the conference would have seven schools that have been full members for eight years.

Also hypothetically, if eight or nine div2 teams opted to move up and form their own conference, first all would have to complete the four year transitional status to become full members. Then all would have to be full members for eight years before earning an automatic bid. In short, if an entire div2 conference decided to move up to div1, it would be twelve years before they had an automatic bid. That is what the new Great West Conference is facing. They're two years into the twelve year transition. It would have to stay together for that long to earn a bid. I'm not holding my breath.

In other news, the moratorium ends after this athletic year, and shockingly the statutes for moving up are pretty much the same as they were before. If anything, they're even more lax. The exploratory year is gone. They can move right into the transitional period and start playing div1 schedules right away. Conference affiliation is not necessary. Teams can move up as independents. They could do this in the past, but I was certain that would not be the case after the moratorium. I guess I was wrong. The fee to move up is roughly $1.4 million. That's only about $100k more than it was before.

Essentially, they inacted the moratorium to slow down the number of teams that were transitioning to div1. One of the reasons so many schools were doing it was because it was very easy to do. A team like NJIT could move up, be indpendent play buy games, get creamed, and count their money. After four years, they've changed virtually nothing. If anythign, it is easier now. Nice work NCAA. Expect sub .500 teams to move up and do what NJIT and the like have been doing.

[xubrew]

Temple was only a conditional member of the Big East. They didn't even have any voting rights.

xu95

The technical term is affilate member, not conditional member. Affiliates are not really members at all. They're basically non-members who are allowed to play a conference schedule in a certain sport because the full members say it is okay. In Conference USA, for instance, Kentucky and South Carolina are affiliate members for soccer, but they have no say in anything the conference does. I believe Kansas State is an affiliate member for rowing.

In other words, as you've already said, Temple was never really in the Big East. They were just affiliate members in football, and were allowed to play a conference schedule becdause the full Big East members agreed to let them. So, they really weren't kicked out. They were never in. That's not the case with La Salle and Fordham.

[xubrew]

This may be a dumb question, but what prevents X getting together with a few other universities, some current A10 members and some outside the conference, and forming a new league? I know it would not be easy, but why can't it be done? You don't invite Fordham and Lasalle to the new league and bam, you have your new and improved A10, it just goes by a different name. Is this sort of idea feasible? If it fails or is found out, what is the worst thing that could happen? Is the only downside losing the autobid? Or would it soil our reputation altogether? It sounds like the A10 wouldn't kick us out, or would that change under such a scenario?

EDIT: I guess such a conference would initially have zero TV contracts, but couldn't that be worked out rather quickly, or not?

I'm game!! Lets do it!!

As far as TV contracts, if we allign with the right teams we could get a good TV deal, especially now that sports affiliate networks appear to be popping up everywhere.

[Masterofreality]

I'm game!! Lets do it!!

As far as TV contracts, if we allign with the right teams we could get a good TV deal, especially now that sports affiliate networks appear to be popping up everywhere.

As long as a piker like DePuke gets an easy $8 million from the Big Greased performances in the NCAA tournament and their share from ESPN TV rights while doing nothing, and Xavier who actually made the tournament winds up netting about $700,000 after sharing with dregs like LaSuck, there will be no break-up. DePuke made more than 3 times as much as Xavier did just from the NCAA Tournament without contributing a thing.

B-Espn continues to feed the monster- and it's a pipe dream that somebody like Georgetown, Seton Hall, Providence or Marquette will leave that league.

Forget it. Just find a way to make the A-10 stronger. Dump the flotsam and have performance standards.

[xubrew]

Forget it. Just find a way to make the A-10 stronger. Dump the flotsam and have performance standards.

I thought that is kind of what he was suggesting.

It's going to be difficult to impliment performance standards because in order to do that, everyone has to be on board, and the teams that will struggle to mee performance standards won't be on board, so it isn't likely to pass.

What he was asking is that we leave the league and start from scratch with a handful of Atlantic Ten teams, and a handful of others. I don't think it would ever happen because of the financial hit we'd take on the front end, but I'm not opposed to the idea.

[LA Muskie]

This statute has recently changed, and by recently I mean within the past two months. Now, all a conference needs to automatically qualify for championships is seven institutions that have been full members for eight years.

In other words, hypothetically if Xavier, Butler, Marquette, Creighton, Holy Cross, Belmont and Western Kentucky all banded together to form their own conference, they would have an automatic bid right away as of roughly two months ago.

Also, hypothetically, if a team like Northern Kentucky moved up to the Ohio Valley, they would be eligible for an automatic bid as soon as they completed the four years of transitional status. The reason is because the conference would have seven schools that have been full members for eight years.

Also hypothetically, if eight or nine div2 teams opted to move up and form their own conference, first all would have to complete the four year transitional status to become full members. Then all would have to be full members for eight years before earning an automatic bid. In short, if an entire div2 conference decided to move up to div1, it would be twelve years before they had an automatic bid. That is what the new Great West Conference is facing. They're two years into the twelve year transition. It would have to stay together for that long to earn a bid. I'm not holding my breath.

In other news, the moratorium ends after this athletic year, and shockingly the statutes for moving up are pretty much the same as they were before. If anything, they're even more lax. The exploratory year is gone. They can move right into the transitional period and start playing div1 schedules right away. Conference affiliation is not necessary. Teams can move up as independents. They could do this in the past, but I was certain that would not be the case after the moratorium. I guess I was wrong. The fee to move up is roughly $1.4 million. That's only about $100k more than it was before.

Essentially, they inacted the moratorium to slow down the number of teams that were transitioning to div1. One of the reasons so many schools were doing it was because it was very easy to do. A team like NJIT could move up, be indpendent play buy games, get creamed, and count their money. After four years, they've changed virtually nothing. If anythign, it is easier now. Nice work NCAA. Expect sub .500 teams to move up and do what NJIT and the like have been doing.

Well I'll be. Thanks for the correction!

[SlimKibbles]

...Forget it. Just find a way to make the A-10 stronger. Dump the flotsam and have performance standards.

I actually e-mailed A-10 Commish McGlade a couple of weeks ago with some ideas of making the league stronger. I suggested the additions of schools like Butler, Old Dominion, Belmont, or Fairfield. They're all in good markets and have some natural rivalries with other league members. I also added that if expansion wasn't in the cards then they need to get rid of Fordham and La Salle. A last suggestion was moving the tournament to Pittsburgh, which is an idea that originated on XH and I thought it was a pretty good one. She just thanked me for my comments and my great support of X and the A-10. It's cool that she responded but I have no idea if anything I said made her think at all. I don't normally write e-mails to people like that. I usually just go with the flow. But I felt compelled to say something. I want the A-10 to be stronger, damnit!

[LA Muskie]

I actually e-mailed A-10 Commish McGlade a couple of weeks ago with some ideas of making the league stronger. I suggested the additions of schools like Butler, Old Dominion, Belmont, or Fairfield. They're all in good markets and have some natural rivalries with other league members. I also added that if expansion wasn't in the cards then they need to get rid of Fordham and La Salle. A last suggestion was moving the tournament to Pittsburgh, which is an idea that originated on XH and I thought it was a pretty good one. She just thanked me for my comments and my great support of X and the A-10. It's cool that she responded but I have no idea if anything I said made her think at all. I don't normally write e-mails to people like that. I usually just go with the flow. But I felt compelled to say something. I want the A-10 to be stronger, damnit!
She thanked you and promptly deleted your message without giving it another thought. The same as if some stranger emailed you to tell you how to do your job. (If you even thanked him or her.)

[xudash]

I actually e-mailed A-10 Commish McGlade a couple of weeks ago with some ideas of making the league stronger. I suggested the additions of schools like Butler, Old Dominion, Belmont, or Fairfield. They're all in good markets and have some natural rivalries with other league members. I also added that if expansion wasn't in the cards then they need to get rid of Fordham and La Salle. A last suggestion was moving the tournament to Pittsburgh, which is an idea that originated on XH and I thought it was a pretty good one. She just thanked me for my comments and my great support of X and the A-10. It's cool that she responded but I have no idea if anything I said made her think at all. I don't normally write e-mails to people like that. I usually just go with the flow. But I felt compelled to say something. I want the A-10 to be stronger, damnit!

LA Muskie might be right, but good for you. Besides, she is in a "public" position, so to speak; public enough that sports fans who care about their school are free to take a shot at offering constructive ideas for improving her product.

Otherwise, I hope everyone took a minute for MOR's numbers - DePaul's BE take versus Xavier's take - to sink in.

I know we've been through all this before. We go through it every year. So what. Chalk it up to therapy perhaps. We're pages into it again. If it drives you crazy, then stay out of the thread. If you want to joke about it, have at it. If you have ideas for making things better, offer them up. Who know who might be reading this site. Well, we know no one from LaSalle and Fordham is reading any of this, but I digress.

Can the A10 change itself? Isn't it up to the Presidents? Does it take a majority vote? Does that mean 8-6?

Who wants improvement - who is well positioned to want it? Obvious core group:


Xavier
Dayton
St. Louis
Temple
UMass
URI
Richmond
Charlotte

...................

Who also is positioned to vote for it?

This crew should be on the same page as the above group:


Duquesne
St. Joe's (they didn't renovate effectively, but they put money into their program)
GW


The schools that should want change vastly outnumber the idiots who can't afford or refuse it.

[xubrew]

HER SECRETARY thanked you and promptly deleted your message without giving it another thought. The same as if some stranger emailed you to tell you how to do your job. (If you even thanked him or her.)

Fixed it...

[xubrew]

Can the A10 change itself? Isn't it up to the Presidents? Does it take a majority vote? Does that mean 8-6?

I'm not entirely sure how it works in the Atlantic Ten, but it depends on what they're voting on. If it is a vote to dissolve the league entirely, I think it's simply a majority vote. If it's a vote to add or change a bylaw, in most conferences you need more than 75% of the league. In this case that would be 11 out of the 14 votes.

Exactly what are some things that you want to change?? If it's getting rid of a few teams, that essentially can't happen unless they can somehow be compelled to leave on their own.

If it is how revenue is shared, what's tough is that I get the feeling that there are certain schools in the league that feel it is safer just to share everything equally because they don't want to put themselves in a position of receiving less than everyone else the majority of the time (or for that matter at any time).

If it's the TV deal, in most cases that's really the job of the league office to negotiate. If I were them I'd be pitching the league to networks like NBC, who has no college basketball and who's affiliates barely have any at all, and even Turner, who may be interested in picking up some regular season games now that they have the NCAA Tournament. Maybe the league office did this and those networks just weren't interested.

Yeah, the Atlantic Ten can change. Having said that, if there is a collective direction that the league wants to go in, I have no idea what it is. It appears to be more of a cluster of teams of all shapes and sizes rather than an actual conference that has an actual collective mindset. The Patriot League is a small conference, but at least it has a collective mindset. So does the Missouri Valley. So does the MAC. So does the Big East, Big Ten and ACC. The Atlantic Ten, you've got Fordham and La Salle, and you've got Xavier and Dayton. Most of the games don't even feel like conference games. When we play GW, we may as well be playing George Mason. When Holy Cross plays Bucknell, you it feels like a conference game. Same with the MAC games. Same with the ACC and most of the Big East games. There is an extra intensity and definite identity in the air. As for Xavier, Butler feels more like a conference game than many of our actual conference games. Outside of Dayton, Temple and maybe one or two others, it's hard to tell the difference between that and most OOC games.

That's my theory anyway. I could elaborate a lot more, but essentially the reason I don't see the Atlantic Ten changing much is because there isn't a collective sense among the full members as to what they want it to be. It's not a conference. It's a cluster.

[muskienick]

I'm not entirely sure how it works in the Atlantic Ten, but it depends on what they're voting on. If it is a vote to dissolve the league entirely, I think it's simply a majority vote. If it's a vote to add or change a bylaw, in most conferences you need more than 75% of the league. In this case that would be 11 out of the 14 votes.

Exactly what are some things that you want to change?? If it's getting rid of a few teams, that essentially can't happen unless they can somehow be compelled to leave on their own.

If it is how revenue is shared, what's tough is that I get the feeling that there are certain schools in the league that feel it is safer just to share everything equally because they don't want to put themselves in a position of receiving less than everyone else the majority of the time (or for that matter at any time).

If it's the TV deal, in most cases that's really the job of the league office to negotiate. If I were them I'd be pitching the league to networks like NBC, who has no college basketball and who's affiliates barely have any at all, and even Turner, who may be interested in picking up some regular season games now that they have the NCAA Tournament. Maybe the league office did this and those networks just weren't interested.

Yeah, the Atlantic Ten can change. Having said that, if there is a collective direction that the league wants to go in, I have no idea what it is. It appears to be more of a cluster of teams of all shapes and sizes rather than an actual conference that has an actual collective mindset. The Patriot League is a small conference, but at least it has a collective mindset. So does the Missouri Valley. So does the MAC. So does the Big East, Big Ten and ACC. The Atlantic Ten, you've got Fordham and La Salle, and you've got Xavier and Dayton. Most of the games don't even feel like conference games. When we play GW, we may as well be playing George Mason. When Holy Cross plays Bucknell, you it feels like a conference game. Same with the MAC games. Same with the ACC and most of the Big East games. There is an extra intensity and definite identity in the air. As for Xavier, Butler feels more like a conference game than many of our actual conference games. Outside of Dayton, Temple and maybe one or two others, it's hard to tell the difference between that and most OOC games.

That's my theory anyway. I could elaborate a lot more, but essentially the reason I don't see the Atlantic Ten changing much is because there isn't a collective sense among the full members as to what they want it to be. It's not a conference. It's a cluster.

brew,

I agree with you on the Patriot, MAC, MVC, Big 10, and the ACC. But I believe the Big East (especially) is just as diverse among its members (or more so) as the A-10. That has been especially true since the creation of the Big East Football Conference. I see your point as far as BB games between Syracuse and Georgetown or Syracuse and Villanova. But I don't see the same "feelings" existing in Villanova vs WVU or Georgetown and UC or Marquette vs Pitt or DePaul vs just about any other Big East member. The main difference between the A-10 and the Big East is the amount of media income and Tournament share money. The dregs of that league (like DePaul, Seton Hall, and Providence) will remain with their FB Big East buddies for as long as they are willing to share those $'s with them. In similar manner, the likes of LaSalle, Fordham and Duquesne will leave the A-10 kicking and screaming if going to a lesser Conference like the America East or MAAC would place them into a position where they would actually be expected to help acquire the Conference's income instead of sitting back and just waiting for "Dole-Day."

The hybrid nature of the Big East will eventually cause it to split and greed will be its undoing. I simply cannot see Villanova overcoming the many obstacles there are to it resurrecting its football program back to the high D-1 level in order to stay with UConn, Syracuse, WVU, Pitt, etc. Georgetown won't either. Neither the money, fan base nor facilities would be available for that type of move to be realistic for either program. But human nature is blind when it comes to turning one's back on what is now seen as a sure thing, oppulence, and ease to face the stark reality of risking all that for a longer-range assurance of affiliation with more like-minded institutions steeped in a basketball tradition of excellence and no interest is big football.

Time will tell.

[SlimKibbles]

She thanked you and promptly deleted your message without giving it another thought. The same as if some stranger emailed you to tell you how to do your job. (If you even thanked him or her.)


Fixed it...

I don't doubt that. It was a little more wordy than the response I once got from "Coach Martelli" which came from his secretary's e-mail address and just said, "Thanks." I usually don't e-mail people in positions like that solely because I doubt they'll even answer but I have done it a couple of times.

[xudash]

.................

Exactly what are some things that you want to change?? If it's getting rid of a few teams, that essentially can't happen unless they can somehow be compelled to leave on their own.

...................

I would prefer to have Fordham and LaSalle gone now - at least five years ago.

You're probably right.

So I yap/write about this for therapy, absolutely astounded that the better presidents of the schools in this conference don't understand your fundamental point about "cluster."

I've noted a number of times that schools that form a conference such as this should be aligned; the member schools should have consistency in their expectations of one another and for what the conference should strive to achieve.

The Big Ten took it to the next level, tying in AAU research resources, etc.

The BE basketball side of the conference is an anomaly thanks to its long standing relationship with ESPN. We weren't ready for it under Tay Baker and probably couldn't have made it anyway due to geography. We haven't made it into it since and may never will, especially if the BE football side of the equation actually:

1. Ends up in a better position financially from its cut of basketball revenue; and

2. Performs at a sufficient level to maintain its AQ status within the BCS.

Xavier is in a cluster. Everything else we could control we controlled magnificently. The A10 has been beneficial to Xavier over the years, but it is time for it to keep up. Too bad that isn't going to happen.

[Snipe]

Kicking teams out is tough, but I think that is the best road ahead for us. I love the A-10 and I think it is the best league for us, I just wish it didn't have an unworkable 14 teams. I really love the A-10.

I want a 9 or 10 team league. I want 16 or 18 conference games and I want to play every league rival twice every season. That is basketball. Conferences are about rivalries. If the A-10 was 12 teams we could switch back to the divisional format and at least have some more rivals. Our only conference rival is Dayton in a true sense. The others all rotate and we don't play them home and home every year. That sucks. Even with divisions we had 5 rivals. Those GW games were something back in the day. Duquesne still is a burr in our side. I love rivalries and I love to have rivals. I love to hate other teams. We play URI at home once every two years, so it is right that people think that Butler is more of a rival.

The math on kicking people out is tough as well for a number of reasons. I am not sure what the A-10 number is to kick out an institution. It could be 75% or just 2/3rds (66%). I am sure it is not a simple majority. Even then it gets complicated.

If it is 75% as Brew suggested, it would take 11 teams to vote for it. But think about that vote if you are the 10th or 11th team. You are signing your own death warrant. The day after that vote is taken you have 11 A-10 teams. And of all the teams that just banded together to vote someone out, they would only have to find 9 votes now to vote you out. If it is just 2/3rds you would only need 8 to vote you out. So the 10th and 11th teams will tend to vote for the 12th, 13th, and 14th teams just because it gives them security.

Nobody knows who the teams are past LaSalle and Fordham, which are obvious choices. Nobody knows if they will be on the chopping block next. The Bonnies would never vote anyone out, because of their market and isolation and the fear of having to be next on the chopping block if we all decide that Fordham and LaSalle must go. So if it is 75% you would have to get everyone to vote for it other that LaSalle, Fordham and SBU.

Would Duquesne vote for such a proposal? They are big rivals with the Bonnies and they aren't on the strongest footing despite recent success (which doesn't even involve an NCAA bid). Would SJU vote for it? They don't have great facilities and recently they have turned in poor results. What about GW? Crappy facilities and suckjob performance. Any of these schools could imagine that they were next on the chopping block, and for any of them to vote to exclude other teams could possibly lead to their own expulsion.

It is hard to get the votes for such things.

That said, I wouldn't mind if we got the best 9 or 10 teams from the A-10 and just formed a new league. It appears we would still have an automatic bid if we did this. If we had 9 teams we might even be able to keep the name. Maybe we could buy them out.

I love the A-10. It has been great for us. I would like to make it better.

Charlotte is moving toward D-1 football, which means they are moving away from us. They never liked the league anyway. You can't have them in your final answer because they don't want you. They have never played well in the league, and they generally blame the league. I had high hopes for them too, but it has been a disaster. We would have been better off without them.

Same football point can be said for Temple, except they are an A-10 power. They have been begging for a D-1 football league. I wouldn't mind just sending them to the MAC. F them and their piss poor attendance. Let's see how well they draw in the MAC.

I think that UMass might have D-1 aspirations as well. UMass has also been somewhat mediocre in basketball with some good years and plenty bad since Calipari. Their attendance is an embarrassment. I wouldn't boot them out, but they aren't special.

SLU? Their coach is constantly talking about geographic options. That situation is not stable.

This is not a stable league. And if I wasn't a Xavier fan, I would write that Xavier and Bobinski have probably accepted every call when it comes to a new conference. We wanted to be Big East when they expanded. We were actually a candidate for awhile in the press but DePaul and the Chicago market (and the UC blackball) nixed us out. We would bolt this league in a New York minute if it served our best interests.

I want Fordham and LaSalle gone and back to two divisions. That is the first step. We could agree to a 10 year moratorium to voting teams out of the league after that, so the fringe teams don't get the heebee jeebies. We won't vote them out the next day. It would be a better A-10 and a stronger A-10. It would still have 12 teams, so when defections came with the end of the Big East they would still have enough teams to keep the conference as an automatic bid.

As for what I really want, I wouldn't mind a revamped MCC. We all dog the MCC and I do too, but Butler, Marquette, Saint Louis, Duquesne & Dayton were in the MCC. Add us and that is six teams. Butler has done well since we left them. Marquette has done much better than when we were last conference mates as well. I think Dayton is solid and that Saint Louis and Duquesne are on the rise. None of those teams are bad teams. Could them make up the western division of the new Big East Basketball Conference, with the Big East basketball teams making up the division? Or what if we just added three to four teams to that list?

One good reason to trim the A-10 would be so we can add select Big East teams if we were streamlined. If Nova does want to go D-1, then what does the Big East have to offer besides Georgetown and St. John? Does Georgetown really care that much about bringing Seton Hall along with them, or playing Providence vs. URI? I would rather play URI, and I like them better. Streamlining this conference could help the remaining players a good deal in future negotiations.

I can't see the future. I would like to have Fordham and LaSalle gone as a starting bid. I discussed why that won't happen. I wouldn't mind buying them out of just banding together with the rest of the conference to form a new league and letting them have the money.

Come to think of it, that may be the best way of getting SBU to vote them out. Tell them they can stay with Fordham and LaSalle and share the NCAA revenue (which will instantly diminish once the other 11 teams leave), or come with us and boot them out. The revenue share of SBU will be enhanced (two less teams to share) and we could give them a set number of years that we agree not to boot them out, like 10. In that time, the A-10 will probably change anyway due to the constant shuffling. The A-10 hasn't gone a decade without it yet, it has consistently be rearranged. SBU could feel safe in voting them out in those circumstances, and we could rid the league of the two worst programs and go back to division play.

Just my banter. Feel free to point out any flaws. You know Bobinski has thought about all of our options and as long as we have Michael we are in good hands.

.

[xu95]

It's not tough Snipe, it is impossible.

xu95

[muskienick]

Kicking teams out is tough, but I think that is the best road ahead for us. I love the A-10 and I think it is the best league for us, I just wish it didn't have an unworkable 14 teams. I really love the A-10.

I want a 9 or 10 team league. I want 16 or 18 conference games and I want to play every league rival twice every season. That is basketball. Conferences are about rivalries. If the A-10 was 12 teams we could switch back to the divisional format and at least have some more rivals. Our only conference rival is Dayton in a true sense. The others all rotate and we don't play them home and home every year. That sucks. Even with divisions we had 5 rivals. Those GW games were something back in the day. Duquesne still is a burr in our side. I love rivalries and I love to have rivals. I love to hate other teams. We play URI at home once every two years, so it is right that people think that Butler is more of a rival.

The math on kicking people out is tough as well for a number of reasons. I am not sure what the A-10 number is to kick out an institution. It could be 75% or just 2/3rds (66%). I am sure it is not a simple majority. Even then it gets complicated.

If it is 75% as Brew suggested, it would take 11 teams to vote for it. But think about that vote if you are the 10th or 11th team. You are signing your own death warrant. The day after that vote is taken you have 11 A-10 teams. And of all the teams that just banded together to vote someone out, they would only have to find 9 votes now to vote you out. If it is just 2/3rds you would only need 8 to vote you out. So the 10th and 11th teams will tend to vote for the 12th, 13th, and 14th teams just because it gives them security.

Nobody knows who the teams are past LaSalle and Fordham, which are obvious choices. Nobody knows if they will be on the chopping block next. The Bonnies would never vote anyone out, because of their market and isolation and the fear of having to be next on the chopping block if we all decide that Fordham and LaSalle must go. So if it is 75% you would have to get everyone to vote for it other that LaSalle, Fordham and SBU.

Would Duquesne vote for such a proposal? They are big rivals with the Bonnies and they aren't on the strongest footing despite recent success (which doesn't even involve an NCAA bid). Would SJU vote for it? They don't have great facilities and recently they have turned in poor results. What about GW? Crappy facilities and suckjob performance. Any of these schools could imagine that they were next on the chopping block, and for any of them to vote to exclude other teams could possibly lead to their own expulsion.

It is hard to get the votes for such things.

That said, I wouldn't mind if we got the best 9 or 10 teams from the A-10 and just formed a new league. It appears we would still have an automatic bid if we did this. If we had 9 teams we might even be able to keep the name. Maybe we could buy them out.

I love the A-10. It has been great for us. I would like to make it better.

Charlotte is moving toward D-1 football, which means they are moving away from us. They never liked the league anyway. You can't have them in your final answer because they don't want you. They have never played well in the league, and they generally blame the league. I had high hopes for them too, but it has been a disaster. We would have been better off without them.

Same football point can be said for Temple, except they are an A-10 power. They have been begging for a D-1 football league. I wouldn't mind just sending them to the MAC. F them and their piss poor attendance. Let's see how well they draw in the MAC.

I think that UMass might have D-1 aspirations as well. UMass has also been somewhat mediocre in basketball with some good years and plenty bad since Calipari. Their attendance is an embarrassment. I wouldn't boot them out, but they aren't special.

SLU? Their coach is constantly talking about geographic options. That situation is not stable.

This is not a stable league. And if I wasn't a Xavier fan, I would write that Xavier and Bobinski have probably accepted every call when it comes to a new conference. We wanted to be Big East when they expanded. We were actually a candidate for awhile in the press but DePaul and the Chicago market (and the UC blackball) nixed us out. We would bolt this league in a New York minute if it served our best interests.

I want Fordham and LaSalle gone and back to two divisions. That is the first step. We could agree to a 10 year moratorium to voting teams out of the league after that, so the fringe teams don't get the heebee jeebies. We won't vote them out the next day. It would be a better A-10 and a stronger A-10. It would still have 12 teams, so when defections came with the end of the Big East they would still have enough teams to keep the conference as an automatic bid.

As for what I really want, I wouldn't mind a revamped MCC. We all dog the MCC and I do too, but Butler, Marquette, Saint Louis, Duquesne & Dayton were in the MCC. Add us and that is six teams. Butler has done well since we left them. Marquette has done much better than when we were last conference mates as well. I think Dayton is solid and that Saint Louis and Duquesne are on the rise. None of those teams are bad teams. Could them make up the western division of the new Big East Basketball Conference, with the Big East basketball teams making up the division? Or what if we just added three to four teams to that list?

One good reason to trim the A-10 would be so we can add select Big East teams if we were streamlined. If Nova does want to go D-1, then what does the Big East have to offer besides Georgetown and St. John? Does Georgetown really care that much about bringing Seton Hall along with them, or playing Providence vs. URI? I would rather play URI, and I like them better. Streamlining this conference could help the remaining players a good deal in future negotiations.

I can't see the future. I would like to have Fordham and LaSalle gone as a starting bid. I discussed why that won't happen. I wouldn't mind buying them out of just banding together with the rest of the conference to form a new league and letting them have the money.

Come to think of it, that may be the best way of getting SBU to vote them out. Tell them they can stay with Fordham and LaSalle and share the NCAA revenue (which will instantly diminish once the other 11 teams leave), or come with us and boot them out. The revenue share of SBU will be enhanced (two less teams to share) and we could give them a set number of years that we agree not to boot them out, like 10. In that time, the A-10 will probably change anyway due to the constant shuffling. The A-10 hasn't gone a decade without it yet, it has consistently be rearranged. SBU could feel safe in voting them out in those circumstances, and we could rid the league of the two worst programs and go back to division play.

Just my banter. Feel free to point out any flaws. You know Bobinski has thought about all of our options and as long as we have Michael we are in good hands.

.

You probably won't like this, Snipe, but I agree with every last damn thing you have said in the above post!

[Snipe]

We had 12 teams and two divisions and we offered Charlotte and SLU a place to stay. That hasn't worked out. I thought that it would at the time and I praised the league. I was wrong.

14 teams is too many teams. Imagine if the Big East does break up, and that we offer Georgetown and SJU (with Nova going D-1 Football). Why would they want to join us? They wouldn't want to join us. Marquette and DePaul are also healthy targets. DePaul wins just by positioning alone in Chicago, and I bet Purnell gets them back to respectability. We should perhaps have more repsect for that man. He brought Dayton back from the oblivion and made Clemson ranked and respectable. So he can't get over the hump? He makes his living reviving programs. That is a talent. Seriously. I expect that he will do the same at DePaul. He won't ever win the big one, but he will put your program on the right track. That might be a genius hire for them. And who knows, maybe he will bust out one day and win loads of games.

I know this is an exersize in futilitiy, but why not just band together to rid ourselves of our worst two teams. At least it is a start. We could provide monetary incentives for this to happen, and give the remaining teams a working period where they would not have to worry about being cast away.

Two Division A-10

Xavier
Dayton
Duquesne
Saint Louis
St. Bonaventure
Richmond


Temple
UMass
URI
St. Joes
George Washington
Charlotte

That would be one way to look at it. It would be a stronger league and we would have stronger rivals.

We may need 11 votes to get rid of 2 teams, but 11 votes could also get rid of three teams, so lets get rid of Charlotte too. Fordham, LaSalle, and Charlotte would be expelled. Then we add the Butler Bulldogs.

Looks like this:

Two Division A-10

Xavier
Butler
Dayton
Duquesne
Saint Louis
St. Bonaventure

Temple
Richmond
URI
UMass
St. Joes
George Washington


That league would rock compared to what we have today. Take the best 11 teams to vote out 3 teams, then add Butler and go to two divisions. I think this could be done, and you could grant every team that votes for it a free ride for a decade so they don't have to worry about being voted out tomorrow.

We can wish for the Big East breakup, and dream about the new conference with Notre Dame. I am not against those dreams. It wouldn't be hard though to make this conference better. We can do this. Charlotte is only going to be here on a temporary basis and they hate us. Fordham and LaSalle never should have been let in the first place.

Time to take out the trash.

[xubrew]

Snipe, I am almost certain that the Atlantic Ten cannot vote a team out. The 75% figure that I referred to was in reference to changing the conference bylaws, not dismissing a team, and even that is a guess. That's what it is for most conferences, and I'm just guessing that is the case with the Atlantic Ten.

One option, maybe, is to come to some sort of settlement to compel them to leave....like paying them a lot of money, and letting them keep their tournament revenue for the next six years, and agreeing to play them at home for the next few years. Really, I think Fordham would be better off in the Patriot League. They look, act, and play like a Patriot League institution. They would even have natural rivals within that league. That doesn't mean they want to be in that league, though.

Saint Bonaventure and La Salle look like Metro Atlantic teams in regards to the types of institutions (catholic) the types of facilities (small), the types of overall athletic departments, and the location. Most people don't remember this, and it is very hard to believe, but when La Salle was in the Metro Atlantic, they were a good team. They had a couple of seasons where they were ranked in the top 25, they went to a few tournaments, and even made the second round once. They were better off in the MAAC, and most likely would be again. They would also have natural rivals in that league. Same with the Bonnies.

I'm not disagreeing with you when you say the league would be better off if it slimmed down. I'll go further than that, Fordham would be BETTER OFF in the Patriot League, even if they don't realize it. Playing Holy Cross, Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, American, and schools like that, and actually having a chance to be successful would boost that program. Same deal with Saint Bonaventure and La Salle in the Metro Atlantic.

It won't happen, though. I don't want to say that it CAN'T happen. It can. It just won't. I don't think they want to leave, and they really can't be made to.

I wouldn't mind seeing Xavier venture out on their own and try to charter a new league, especially now that we could do so and be automatic qualifiers right away. Xavier, Butler, Dayton, Saint Louis, Western Kentucky (may sound odd, but I like their FCS TV deal and the potential it has), Richmond. That's six. We could add two or three more. I'd like to see Temple in there because they are a name team in a notable market, and they're succesful. I like Rhode Island too, although they're on quite the NCAA Tournament drought.

Having said that, I don't see that happening either. I think we're in the Atlantic Ten in its 14 team format.

[xudash]

Your taking this in the wrong direction. They don't deserve money to leave. They have caused damage; it's time to damage them.

The conference should charge them. The A10 should provide St. Joe's an exemption, based on its screwed up $15mm renovation, and then agree to charge Fordham and LaSalle $50k or more per year until they DELIVER a facilities solution that is conducive to the A10.

Obviously, that would come in addition to a ZERO distribution from any A10 revenue sharing pool.

You don't allow the A10 to be held captive by these tools; you turn their captivity around on them and make them pay until they beg for mercy to leave.

[muskienick]

Snipe, I am almost certain that the Atlantic Ten cannot vote a team out. The 75% figure that I referred to was in reference to changing the conference bylaws, not dismissing a team, and even that is a guess. That's what it is for most conferences, and I'm just guessing that is the case with the Atlantic Ten.

One option, maybe, is to come to some sort of settlement to compel them to leave....like paying them a lot of money, and letting them keep their tournament revenue for the next six years, and agreeing to play them at home for the next few years. Really, I think Fordham would be better off in the Patriot League. They look, act, and play like a Patriot League institution. They would even have natural rivals within that league. That doesn't mean they want to be in that league, though.

Saint Bonaventure and La Salle look like Metro Atlantic teams in regards to the types of institutions (catholic) the types of facilities (small), the types of overall athletic departments, and the location. Most people don't remember this, and it is very hard to believe, but when La Salle was in the Metro Atlantic, they were a good team. They had a couple of seasons where they were ranked in the top 25, they went to a few tournaments, and even made the second round once. They were better off in the MAAC, and most likely would be again. They would also have natural rivals in that league. Same with the Bonnies.

I'm not disagreeing with you when you say the league would be better off if it slimmed down. I'll go further than that, Fordham would be BETTER OFF in the Patriot League, even if they don't realize it. Playing Holy Cross, Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, American, and schools like that, and actually having a chance to be successful would boost that program. Same deal with Saint Bonaventure and La Salle in the Metro Atlantic.

It won't happen, though. I don't want to say that it CAN'T happen. It can. It just won't. I don't think they want to leave, and they really can't be made to.

I wouldn't mind seeing Xavier venture out on their own and try to charter a new league, especially now that we could do so and be automatic qualifiers right away. Xavier, Butler, Dayton, Saint Louis, Western Kentucky (may sound odd, but I like their FCS TV deal and the potential it has), Richmond. That's six. We could add two or three more. I'd like to see Temple in there because they are a name team in a notable market, and they're succesful. I like Rhode Island too, although they're on quite the NCAA Tournament drought.

Having said that, I don't see that happening either. I think we're in the Atlantic Ten in its 14 team format.

Brew,

WKU does not inspire the feeling of instant credibility for a Conference that is needed to get a new great one started. The others 5 that you suggest are right there. So that means that we need 4 more members if you are going to get Snipe and me to back your idea with enthusiasm (if not big bucks). Assuming that the Big East eventually breaks apart aling FB/BB lines, that may free up at least Georgetown, Marquette, St, John's and DePaul. That gets us to the requisite nine members. Now if Villanova wakes up in time to spurn the Big East's FB overtures to save themselves an endless series of years where their athletic programs lose them $Millions annually, we could get to nine members of a Super Conference by including the Wildcats instead of the Blue Demons. However, if Villanova falls victim to the lure of big FB (and the stench of $millions of losses each year), then I'd say we accept DePaul because of its great media and recruitment market and use Notre Dame, Creighton, or the best CAA program not in Richmond to serve as the fall-back member of the Conference in place of one of the others who opt out.

Screw UMASS, Temple, Charlotte and the rest of the Football dreamers.
Screw St. Joe's, LaSuck, GW, St. Bona's, Fordamn, URI, and Duquezknee for their failure to strive for big-time basketball prominence.

That would leave us with Xavier, Dayton, Butler, Marquette, Georgetown, Richmond. St. John's, DePaul, and either Villanova, Notre Dame, or the best non-Richmond CAA school available.

There is definitely no better Conference outside the Big Six boys top to bottom than this one. Furthermore, this one could almost certainly rank better than at least one or two of the Big Six boys on an annual basis. I could see this group easily get 5-6 teams in the NCAA Tourney on an annual basis (I believe seven of the nine would have been in this year).

Administrators have to start getting the guts to be proactive and look five or 10 years down the line before they figure the 2 or 3 reasons why this might not be advantageous for them. We'd be at nine great basketball members. All would have fine home playing venues (or immediate access to it). Where do they see any "weak sisters" or lousy media centers? Even if they have to turn their backs on guaranteed Tourney Units already earned in their current Conferences, wouldn't they be able to see how quickly they could recoup those temporary losses by the immediate successes their new Conference would gain?

But then we are only fans seeing things from outside the forest. The power-brokers are trying to visualize things from looking at the forest through the trees.

To them I say, "Good luck"!

[xubrew]

The one thing WKU does have is a way above average TV deal for a team outside a major conference. They also have facilities and a decent fanbase that is better than the average atlantic ten team. I think they would be an asset to a league that didn't suck as bad as the Sun Belt.

Having said that, they wouldn't be as good as any of the Big East non-football schools. The thing is, I just don't see any sort of an allignment with them to be all that likely. Call it a hunch.

You mentioned being proactive. I think if Xavier wanted any chance at all of looking attractive to those schools, they would have to improve their facilities for non-revenue sports. They would also have to increase the number of scholarships, and most likely the number of sports as well. Georgetown has 23 sports. Nova has 22. Notre Dame has more than that. Xavier has just 13. I think they would need at least 18. Not only that, they would have to pump money into them. Basketball wise we're as good or better than the Big East non-football schools, but as an overall athletic department, XU doesn't match up. That's a problem if we ever want to affiliate with them. Marquette doesn't have much outside of basketball, but the difference between us and Marquette is that Marquette is already in. They have Notre Dame to thank for that.

If Notre Dame does start their own network, and it is an affiliate of NBC, then that is reason enough for the non-football schools to want to continue to remain affiliated with each other. I can honestly see them being happy as a league of eight. They would have 14 conference basketball games, and 15 OOC games. That's perfect for a league that likes playing buy games. It also allows them to keep fixture games on the schedule and yet still have enough OOC dates. Nova would continue playing the Big Five. Marquette would continue playing Wisconsin and UW Milwaukee. Notre Dame may actually start playing Indiana, Purdue, Michigan and Michigan State again.

Long story short, I think the Big East non-football schools are happy with each other, and aren't too anxious to let anyone else in. If they do, I don't think it will be Xavier. Again, call it a hunch.

[xubrew]

Your taking this in the wrong direction. They don't deserve money to leave. They have caused damage; it's time to damage them.

The conference should charge them. The A10 should provide St. Joe's an exemption, based on its screwed up $15mm renovation, and then agree to charge Fordham and LaSalle $50k or more per year until they DELIVER a facilities solution that is conducive to the A10.

Obviously, that would come in addition to a ZERO distribution from any A10 revenue sharing pool.

You don't allow the A10 to be held captive by these tools; you turn their captivity around on them and make them pay until they beg for mercy to leave.

In principal I agree with you, but that won't happen.

Besides, $50k is typically less than the going rate for a buy game. Fordham and La Salle wouldn't miss it. They'd just schedule one less home game.

[xudash]

In principal I agree with you, but that won't happen.

Besides, $50k is typically less than the going rate for a buy game. Fordham and La Salle wouldn't miss it. They'd just schedule one less home game.

I know it sounds nice and that it probably wouldn't happen, but it should.

I just threw that number out there. Were this something that could be done, the number would have to really hurt. In the case of those two programs, make that "really, really."