Butler vs Florida

[MADXSTER]

Who will win??

Vote today as the poll will close

[X Factor]

I'l go with Florida due to their inside game with Tyus, Macklin, and Young. I had them beating BYU for the same reason and Tyus had a huge game. Butler does play way better defense than BYU though.

I'm a Florida Gator fan on Saturday.

Can't wait for Howard and Shelvin Mack to leave.

[danaandvictory]

Butler wins. It doesn't matter if Florida is better at every position. Butler will ugly the game up beyond all recognition and win the foul shooting war, just like they've done every game for the last two years.

[gladdenguy]

Come on Gators. Boynton and Walker have to play well.
I've been amazed how much Walker has improved over the last 2 years.

GO GATORS!!!!

[xudash]

Butler had two remarkable victories to get things going, then frustrated a flat-looking Whisky team.

Butler's luck has run out.

The Florida Gator's get up and go to Houston.

[XUglow]

Florida better shoot better at the FT line if they want to advance. They worked hard to keep BYU in the game.

[SkyWalker]

Florida wins by double digits.

[Muskie]

Sitting at Jake Melnicks watching the game in chicago

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums (http://developer.palm.com/appredirect/?packageid=com.newnessdevelopments.forums)

[xsteve1]

It's amazing Butler gets key contributions from their freshmen. X got nothing from theirs this year. Big reason why we were 1 and done.

[xavierj]

Yeah but Xavier's best freshman was not eligible to play. The Van Zant guy for Butler has hardly played this year.

[LA Muskie]

Gawd...2 for 1...math isn't that hard!

[xsteve1]

I fully expect Butler to make a big play to win this.

[xsteve1]

Marshall, Marshall, Marshall. Where does Butler find these guys?

[Kahns Krazy]

I wonder if the geniuses on this board that think Butler would not be a good addition to the A-10 are going to stick with that argument now.

[xsteve1]

We are Butler's bitch. We better make a serious run soon.

[X-Fan]

We are Butler's bitch. We better make a serious run soon.

Eh, I wouldn't go that far...especially considering we beat them this year. Kinda nice that X has a win over a Final 4 team this year. They simply have some good players with experience, X will have that luxury next year.

I certainly am happy for Butler. To me it's good for Xavier that they made two straight Final 4's. Now recruits can see you don't have to go to a Big school to both go deep in the tourney and make the NBA.

[danaandvictory]

They are either the luckiest or most clutch team in the history of basketball. I'm thinking it's about 20/80.

[kyxu]

I wonder if the geniuses on this board that think Butler would not be a good addition to the A-10 are going to stick with that argument now.

Or that Butler's attendance and antiquated facility is not conducive to long-term success...

[BlueX]

Apparently Florida schools don't know how to play in the final seconds. FSU twice can't get off a shot, then UF decides to shoot two 3's while the score is tied and down one. The second 3 coming out of a timeout and both well behind the 3 point line.

[X Factor]

The tournament is all about match-ups and some luck along the way. Just look at Butler's path this year. Credit to them, but it couldn't have worked out any better for them.

Sucks, but they did it again.

Why can't Xavier ever crash through and make a Final Four?

[Snipe]

Bulldogs!

Two Straight Final Fours!

[OTRMUSKIE]

I use to think this was bad for Xavier and it still might as far as recruiting kids in Indy. However this is soooo fun to watch and really helps the non BCS schools. It is true you can go to a non big 6 school and play for NC. The only thing that sucks for Butler is this might be their last run for awhile. No way they keep Stevens much longer, he will be making Millions soon. But who knows, I thought there was no way Butler could repeat and they proved me wrong. Hell Butler might become the new Duke. Unbelievable!!!

[SixFig]

I bow to Butler.

It sucks, but true. We have to break on through soon. Is it november yet?

[Snipe]

I don't think this sucks at all. Go Bulldogs!!!

[golfitup]

Or that Butler's attendance and antiquated facility is not conducive to long-term success...

That was always the dumbest argument to begin with.

But yeah, we really have no leg to stand on anymore when it comes to who has had more success. Any argument we could present would be met with, "2 straight final fours." And they walk away with a smile and we'd be left with the proverbial tails between the legs...

[kmcrawfo]

To me it's good for Xavier that they made two straight Final 4's. Now recruits can see you don't have to go to a Big school to both go deep in the tourney and make the NBA.

This is pretty far from the truth.... To think that Butler run to 2-straight final fours will have anything but a negative impact on Xavier's recruiting is wishful thinking. Butler is competing for many of the same recruits as X.

If a players has their heart set on IU, Purdue, Kentucky, etc Butlers run won't make a difference. If they are considering X vs. Butler it certainly could....

Butler deserves respect for the last 2 years. I, however, still do not think it is sustainable based on their budget, facilities, attendance, conference, etc.

I am not a Butler fan and believe their success is no way helpful to X in any way. Quite the contrary from a media exposure and recruiting perspective.

[kmcrawfo]

That was always the dumbest argument to begin with.

But yeah, we really have no leg to stand on anymore when it comes to who has had more success. Any argument we could present would be met with, "2 straight final fours." And they walk away with a smile and we'd be left with the proverbial tails between the legs...

I don't consider a 2-year run to be "long term success". I think this is more of a lightning in a bottle situation. A month ago Butler was sliding off the bubble and needed to win their league tourney to even make the NCAAs. I still think Butler will fade as soon as their coach bolts. They don't have the financial means to keep him.

[xsteve1]

This is pretty far from the truth.... To think that Butler run to 2-straight final fours will have anything but a negative impact on Xavier's recruiting is wishful thinking. Butler is competing for many of the same recruits as X.

If a players has their heart set on IU, Purdue, Kentucky, etc Butlers run won't make a difference. If they are considering X vs. Butler it certainly could....

Butler deserves respect for the last 2 years. I, however, still do not think it is sustainable based on their budget, facilities, attendance, conference, etc.

I am not a Butler fan and believe their success is no way helpful to X in any way. Quite the contrary from a media exposure and recruiting perspective.

We very rarely recruit against Butler. They recruit a different style of player than us. The only player I can think of is Matt Howard.

[gladdenguy]

im 31 years old and xavier will most likely never go to 2 final fours in my lifetime....idont care if its lightning in a bottle....give me some of that.....im so jealous its not even funny.
regardless id rather have 2 final fours then have more people in our arena night in and night out...
also stevens wont leave unless its a top job...hes not leaving for any of the jobs opened this year....he has never interviewed for any job but butler...why wouldnt he be happy...he can win titles at butler....its amazing

[SixFig]

Brad Stevens has now reached as many Final Fours as John Calipari has had vacated.

[Porkopolis]

Regardless of my negative feelings towards Butler, I've found myself cheering for them again during this tournament. They have elevated their program to an elite level and it is good for teams outside the power conferences. Butler's most recent run of success tops anything we've ever done, but doesn't erase years of Xavier operating at a higher level. I think they have become our peer but whether or not they sustain it determines whether they become Gonzaga/Xavier or fall off the face of the planet and become George Mason/Loyola Marymount.

I'll say this, though: that man can flat out coach. Impressive.

[xavierj]

To be honest Xavier and Butler don't recruit against each other as much as some might think. Xavier did not offer any of the 3 guys who committed to Butler last year and they are not really recruiting anyone the same for 2012 either. On Butler's current roster the only guy Xavier offered was Matt Howard. Butler also does not recruit the east or the south where Xavier recruits.

[Blue Blooded-05]

2 straight Final Fours and a young coach that won't leave. Not to mention Indy has a consistantly good NFL team and a vibrant downtown that hosts Super Bowls and Final Fours...

I hate myself for saying this, but...
Dayton is to Xavier what Xavier is to Butler

[waggy]

Butler might win a national championship.

Just sayin'

[GuyFawkes38]

2 straight Final Fours and a young coach that won't leave. Not to mention Indy has a consistantly good NFL team and a vibrant downtown that hosts Super Bowls and Final Fours...

I hate myself for saying this, but...
Dayton is to Xavier what Xavier is to Butler

Indianapolis is meh. ok. But I prefer Cincy much more.

[GuyFawkes38]

Butler might win a national championship.

Just sayin'

They will be 10 point dogs to Kansas, right?

[muskienick]

Or that Butler's attendance and antiquated facility is not conducive to long-term success...

Hinkle is old but not in bad shape. Furthermore, their average home attendance would place them in the top 4-6 in the A-10. That's not too shabby!

[waggy]

They will be 10 point dogs to Kansas, right?

10 points is a lot. Butler will get some respect for how they are able to keep games close, and you can throw out their numbers prior to the tourney because they are obviously playing much better now.

But Kansas has to get by VCU first.

[X4LIFE]

Congrats Bulldogs!!! It's great to see a non bcs team in the final four. I just don't understand the hate by some on both boards. I could care less how many final fours they make. It takes nothing away from our program. When we get to the final four I would hope Butler fans would be happy to see another non bcs team get there. Good luck Butler.

[golfitup]

im 31 years old and xavier will most likely never go to 2 final fours in my lifetime....idont care if its lightning in a bottle....give me some of that.....im so jealous its not even funny.
regardless id rather have 2 final fours then have more people in our arena night in and night out...
also stevens wont leave unless its a top job...hes not leaving for any of the jobs opened this year....he has never interviewed for any job but butler...why wouldnt he be happy...he can win titles at butler....its amazing

Would have repped you but won't let me. My thoughts exactly.

[Snipe]

Xavier should worry about Xavier and not Butler. If Florida makes the Final Four would it hurt us? No. And Butler making the Final Four doesn't hurt us either. It only matters if you are concerned about being taunted by "Fired Up Karen". I say more power to Karen. I love when the little guy wins. We play home and homes with Butler. This can help get those games on ESPN. In that way it helps us. Not every school will play us. UK, Louisville, IU, Ohio State are not coming to the Cintas. Butler will and we have an old rivalry. This helps to elevate that rivalry. I think it is good for us.

I want them to win the whole thing. And I am not worried if VCU makes the Final Four either. It is ok to want what Butler has and be a bit jealous, but it isn't a threat to our program and it doesn't hurt us. We are going to be very good next year.

Go Bulldogs!

[GuyFawkes38]

Snipe, you just don't understand the situation. This 2nd appearance to the Final Four by Butler is a disaster for the X program. We probably won't recover.

[OTRMUSKIE]

What happens to the t-shirts they print out for the winner who didn't win? X has been to two elite 8's which means there should be t-shirts out there that say final four. Do they burn them or give them to the poor?

[GuyFawkes38]

What happens to the t-shirts they print out for the winner who didn't win? X has been to two elite 8's which means there should be t-shirts out there that say final four. Do they burn them or give them to the poor?

They are in Africa.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Not sure why I feel this way....but I'm not jealous. I'm just really impressed. Should I be jealous? Maybe...but I'm not. I'm just really really impressed.

[X4LIFE]

Give me a break. Butler fans were probably saying the same thing two years ago. Heck, it was a pipe dream two years ago. X has been knocking on the door twice. It's not as far as you might think. And as for the dayton is to xavier what xavier is to butler comment. Didn't dayton make a final four thirty five years ago and look where they are now;)

[HuskyMuskie]

Anyone who is rooting for, pulling for, thinking about, or even smiling when looking at Butler making it to another Final Four, as a Xavier fan, needs to have a brain examination.

We are, by the most pure definition of the word, NOT the "force to be reckoned with" in the "little guy" conferences anymore. Butler is. We don't have tournament success anymore. Butler does. We can't claim to have the experienced, more success-prone coach. Butler can. Hell, we can't even say that our coaches will STAY if not offered an extra dollar onto their swelling paycheck from other schools. Butler can say that too.

We quite literally do not have leg to stand on anymore when it comes to having any sort of edge on Butler. Coming from an Indianapolis native, I have to say that I am a fan of the university, but I can not STAND the arrogant meanderthals that are fans there.

I want MY university to be the best, not an eerily similar imitation. And to the "fired up karen" comment, Butler becomes increasingly easier to loathe when you live with thousands of Karens. Not to mention, their university twitter is currently talking shit about Xavier on their feed, as we speak. Why? Because now they can.

Sickening.

[cinskyline]

I understand everyone's concerns, but Xavier needs to worry about Xavier. We have absolutely no control over what Butler does anyway.

I will say that I am completely puzzled by their run though. The have had some really good players but also some really good luck. Whenever X plays for a chance to go to the Final Four, they go up against teams with 3 or 4 potential NBA players on the opposing roster.

[LA Muskie]

Anyone who doesn't give Butler (and Stevens) a ton -- and I mean a TON -- of credit is a sore loser. It's really that simple. We get excited about 3 straight sweet 16's. They're looking at 2 straight Final Four's. I don't give a crap if Hinkle sucks. This is the most impressive small school run (Big 6 or not) that I've seen in my lifetime.

And anyone who thinks it will end abruptly with graduation of a few seniors has his head in the stand. We talk about the Xavier way. Well, they've developed their own. And it's a damn good system/program in its own right.

Give credit where credit is due. And they deserve a boatload of it.

[X4LIFE]

I hope this banter is tongue in cheek. Butler is talking trash about X because X matters. If IU were doing well they'd talk trash about them. Every fan base has another team to talk about. And Butler/X is turning into a good rivalry. Let's hope the series continues.

[LA Muskie]

Whenever X plays for a chance to go to the Final Four, they go up against teams with 3 or 4 potential NBA players on the opposing roster.
This board is replete with threads about how disrespected we are. Yet we can't seem to respect those others who are in similar positions when they succeed. I'm sorry, but this is just pathetic. It takes some luck for anyone to get to the Final Four, but attributing their 2nd consecutive run to luck is insulting to them, and it should be embarrassing to us.

[pizza delivery]

Anyone who is rooting for, pulling for, thinking about, or even smiling when looking at Butler making it to another Final Four, as a Xavier fan, needs to have a brain examination.

We are, by the most pure definition of the word, NOT the "force to be reckoned with" in the "little guy" conferences anymore.

Who cares? Were we ever the definitive "force to be reckoned with"? Butler's been good for a while now, they deserve respect. But you know what doesn't define them? What other people say. It doesn't, never has, at XU either.


Butler is. We don't have tournament success anymore.

Wrong.


Butler does. We can't claim to have the experienced, more success-prone coach. Butler can.

Wrong.


Hell, we can't even say that our coaches will STAY if not offered an extra dollar onto their swelling paycheck from other schools. Butler can say that too.

Wrong.


We quite literally do not have leg to stand on anymore when it comes to having any sort of edge on Butler.

Wrong.


Coming from an Indianapolis native, I have to say that I am a fan of the university, but I can not STAND the arrogant meanderthals that are fans there.

I want MY university to be the best, not an eerily similar imitation. And to the "fired up karen" comment, Butler becomes increasingly easier to loathe when you live with thousands of Karens.

I guess I feel sorry for you, but you're still wrong.


Not to mention, their university twitter is currently talking shit about Xavier on their feed, as we speak. Why? Because now they can.

They can talk shit to whoever they want, period.

Like many have noted, we don't really recruit that often vs Butler, so I don't get the hand wringing. I enjoy the 'friendly' competition every year with Butler, right now we own the scoreboard and have the better team coming back next year.

[GoMuskies]

I'm jealous. But in a good way. I'm cheering for them, but I wish it was us and not them. Good for them.

Doesn't affect us a bit, though.

[pizza delivery]

this board is replete with threads about how disrespected we are. Yet we can't seem to respect those others who are in similar positions when they succeed. I'm sorry, but this is just pathetic. It takes some luck for anyone to get to the final four, but attributing their 2nd consecutive run to luck is insulting to them, and it should be embarrassing to us.

reps!

[LA Muskie]

Or that Butler's attendance and antiquated facility is not conducive to long-term success...
Success breeds success. Period. Facilities can be upgraded, and with sustained success the means are there. I would bet that part of Stevens deal to stay is a significant upgrade in facilities. And that was after last year. He has even more leverage this year.

[LA Muskie]

I enjoy the 'friendly' competition every year with Butler, right now we own the scoreboard and have the better team coming back next year.
Let's not get carried away. No one -- NO ONE -- cares who won a single game in December. Hell, we -- probably more than anyone else -- routinely tout the fact that it's all about March. And it is.

They are in the Final Four. We got our asses handed to us in the first round. Right now, for THIS SEASON, they clearly won.

Next year? Another story. But they have proven that they are a PROGRAM that can't be taken lightly. And thinking anything else is just sour grapes.

That, of course, does not have to distract from us. There's plenty of room -- if anything, this year has shown the fallacy of the Big 6. Hell, we may well have a team in the Final Four that Big 6 pundits claimed didn't even belong (and likely wouldn't have been in the tourney if not for the expansion).

[GuyFawkes38]

Success breeds success. Period. Facilities can be upgraded, and with sustained success the means are there. I would bet that part of Stevens deal to stay is a significant upgrade in facilities. And that was after last year. He has even more leverage this year.

Butler has had a lot of success in the past 10 years. Yet, even last year, their attendance sucked.

I don't know if it'll change.

It's really puzzling. I understand that most people in the area are much bigger IU, PU, ND fans. But Butler is roughly the same size as X with a similar alumni base. I don't think we get much support from non alums. But regardless, we have a lot of support. Why doesn't Butler?

[LA Muskie]

Butler has had a lot of success in the past 10 years. Yet, even last year, their attendance sucked.

I don't know if it'll change.

It's really puzzling. I understand that most people in the area are much bigger IU, PU, ND fans. But Butler is roughly the same size as X with a similar alumni base. I don't think we get much support from non alums. But regardless, we have a lot of support. Why doesn't Butler?
I haven't a clue. Until this thread, I had forgotten they were in Indy. Thankfully for them, the attendance numbers in the box scores don't count for anything.

[X Factor]

It is interesting to compare who Xavier played in the Elite Eight to who Butler has played in the Elite Eight the past two years.

In 2004, Duke featured J.J. Reddick, Loul Deng, and Sheldon Williams. In 2008, UCLA featured Darren Collison, Russell Westbrook, and Kevin Love.

Those were very, very good teams.

[xubrew]

I don't consider a 2-year run to be "long term success". I think this is more of a lightning in a bottle situation. A month ago Butler was sliding off the bubble and needed to win their league tourney to even make the NCAAs. I still think Butler will fade as soon as their coach bolts. They don't have the financial means to keep him.

How about an 11 year run then??

2000 - Lost to national runner up florida in the first round on a last second shot...

2001 - Lost in second round to national runner up arizona

2002 - On the bubble, but missed

2003 - Sweet Sixteen. Lost to top seed Oklahoma

2004-2006 (missed all tournaments)

2007 - Sweet Sixteen. Lost to national champion florida in a close game. Florida won back to back championships. No one came closer to beating them in either tournament than butler did.

2008 - Lost in overtime to #2 seed Tennessee in second round

2009 - Lost in first round

2010 - National runner up. Missed last second shot that would have won the game.

2011 - Final Four...and counting.


In the last 11 years, Butler has won 16 tournament games. Xavier has won 13.

If you look at some other teams....

Pitt has won just 14. they've been to just one elite eight. butler has now been to two final fours.

Memphis has won just 14. (nine that weren't vacated)

Louisville has won just 12.

Kentucky has won 20, but has not been past the elite eight in that time period, much less twice.

Florida, believe it or not, has won fewer games since 2001 despite having won two national titles.


There probably aren't ten teams that have won more ncaa tournaement games than butler over the past eleven years. That's not catching lightening in a bottle. that's harnessing lightning and using it on demand. On top of that, they're STILL playing.

To me, expecting butler to quickly fade is like expecting florida to become cold in the summer time. I don't get why the status quo doesn't give butler their due. They're a top ten program right now. Not just now, but for the past eleven years. Name ten teams that have done more in that timespan. You probably can't.

Butler is elite. They don't "come out of nowhere." They're always there.

[LA Muskie]

It is interesting to compare who Xavier played in the Elite Eight to who Butler has played in the Elite Eight the past two years.

In 2004, Duke featured J.J. Reddick, Loul Deng, and Sheldon Williams. In 2008, UCLA featured Darren Collison, Russell Westbrook, and Kevin Love.

Those were very, very good teams.
To get to the Final 4 you have to win the 4 games you are given. There's no magic to it.

PS: Unless you are VCU. Then you have to win 5 to get there.

[GuyFawkes38]

I haven't a clue. Until this thread, I had forgotten they were in Indy. Thankfully for them, the attendance numbers in the box scores don't count for anything.

True. Maybe Stevens isn't a big money guy and will be content with his million dollar salary.

[LA Muskie]

True. Maybe Stevens isn't a big money guy and will be content with his million dollar salary.
That'll be the big question in about 10 days, but I don't see him leaving this year -- nowhere worthy to go. In any event, that coaching tree's not too shabby. Like us, they seem to reload quite well. Hell, if Bobo ever leaves, I wonder if we can lure Barry Collier away?

[pizza delivery]

Let's not get carried away. No one -- NO ONE -- cares who won a single game in December. Hell, we -- probably more than anyone else -- routinely tout the fact that it's all about March. And it is.

They are in the Final Four. We got our asses handed to us in the first round. Right now, for THIS SEASON, they clearly won.

Next year? Another story. But they have proven that they are a PROGRAM that can't be taken lightly. And thinking anything else is just sour grapes.

That, of course, does not have to distract from us. There's plenty of room -- if anything, this year has shown the fallacy of the Big 6. Hell, we may well have a team in the Final Four that Big 6 pundits claimed didn't even belong (and likely wouldn't have been in the tourney if not for the expansion).

I don't mind keeping score in a rivalry. Speak for yourself.

[LA Muskie]

I don't mind keeping score in a rivalry. Speak for yourself.
Down the road the rivalry record will mean more to me. But for now it's hard not to feel like they "won" notwithstanding those results.

[pizza delivery]

Down the road the rivalry record will mean more to me. But for now it's hard not to feel like they "won" notwithstanding those results.

I see what you mean, but we never played them in the tourney.

[stophorseabuse]

What they have done is simply amazing. Failing to concede they are ahead of X is like a UD fan failing to concede X is ahead of them.

They are just masterful. The most improbable 2 year run I have ever seen in sports.

[kmcrawfo]

How about an 11 year run then??

2000 - Lost to national runner up florida in the first round on a last second shot...

2001 - Lost in second round to national runner up arizona

2002 - On the bubble, but missed

2003 - Sweet Sixteen. Lost to top seed Oklahoma

2004-2006 (missed all tournaments)

2007 - Sweet Sixteen. Lost to national champion florida in a close game. Florida won back to back championships. No one came closer to beating them in either tournament than butler did.

2008 - Lost in overtime to #2 seed Tennessee in second round

2009 - Lost in first round

2010 - National runner up. Missed last second shot that would have won the game.

2011 - Final Four...and counting.


In the last 11 years, Butler has won 16 tournament games. Xavier has won 13.

If you look at some other teams....

Pitt has won just 14. they've been to just one elite eight. butler has now been to two final fours.

Memphis has won just 14. (nine that weren't vacated)

Louisville has won just 12.

Kentucky has won 20, but has not been past the elite eight in that time period, much less twice.

Florida, believe it or not, has won fewer games since 2001 despite having won two national titles.


There probably aren't ten teams that have won more ncaa tournaement games than butler over the past eleven years. That's not catching lightening in a bottle. that's harnessing lightning and using it on demand. On top of that, they're STILL playing.

To me, expecting butler to quickly fade is like expecting florida to become cold in the summer time. I don't get why the status quo doesn't give butler their due. They're a top ten program right now. Not just now, but for the past eleven years. Name ten teams that have done more in that timespan. You probably can't.

Butler is elite. They don't "come out of nowhere." They're always there.

Way to skew the statistics with the total wins over 11 years. The 2002, 2004, 2005, and 2006 complete kind of stand out a bit for being a "top-10 program" over the last 11-years.

How many of their 16 tourney wins have come in this 2-year run (which I gave them credit/respect for)? How many at large bids did they receive vs. winning their crappy conference?

If you are going to spout numbers at least try to analyze to whole picture.

Butler has been freaking phenomenal for this 2-year stretch. I still think they are more likely to fall back into a 2002-2006 rut than they are to become an Elite program like Duke, Kentucky, UNC, IU, UCLA, etc.

Let's see what happens over the next 5-years...

[Snipe]

It is nice to have good rivals. It doesn't help Xavier that Dayton is imploding or that Miami has gone in the crapper. It would actually be better for us if the teams we always played had a bit more success.

I admire what Butler has done. I want to go to a Final Four too, it is a dream for all of us. I loved seeing George Mason do it a few years ago. That didn't hurt us either.

I would like to see Brad Stevens stay at Butler and continue to keep them playing at a high level. I want to continue to play them every year. I admire what they have done and I root for them in the tounament. If you let what a random Butler fan on the internet says influence your opinion of the whole university, then maybe the problem is on your end. I root for the Non-Big Six teams. I root for the Butlers, the Gonzagas and the Memphis teams out there. Tomorrow I will root hard for VCU. I would love to see VCU vs. Butler.

We had a great year. At one point it looked bleak, but we turned it around and did the school proud. Do I want more? Sure. Fan is short for fanatic. I won't be satisfied on some level until we win the whole damn thing.

I hope that Butler wins the whole damn thing.

We are fine for the future. Next year looks to be very good, possibly incredible if Mack can find a way to utilize all of the talent that we have on hand. The whole year we were wondering how things could have been different with Redford or Martin or both. I have a great feeling about next year. This will be an exciting off-season because of the high expectations. I think we could be ranked in the pre-season. That doesn't happen very often. I look to win the A-10 for the sixth straight time too. I can't wait.

[xubrew]

Way to skew the statistics with the total wins over 11 years. The 2002, 2004, 2005, and 2006 complete kind of stand out a bit for being a "top-10 program" over the last 11-years.

How many of their 16 tourney wins have come in this 2-year run (which I gave them credit/respect for)? How many at large bids did they receive vs. winning their crappy conference?

If you are going to spout numbers at least try to analyze to whole picture.

Butler has been freaking phenomenal for this 2-year stretch. I still think they are more likely to fall back into a 2002-2006 rut than they are to become an Elite program like Duke, Kentucky, UNC, IU, UCLA, etc.

Let's see what happens over the next 5-years...

You said that you don't consider a two year run to be long term success. They're not on a two year run. t=They're on an eleven year run. I'm not skewing numbers. I'm listing them. If I'm skewing numbers then so are the record books. I did analyze the whole picture. Well, i actually did very little analysis. I just listed it verbatum. An analysis wasn't really necessary.

In all of Butler's tournament appearances, they were seeded better than the last at-large team. Whether they received an at-large bid or not, they were in a position to get one. that's DESPITE their conference, not BECAUSE of it. The Horizon League does them no favors, yet they put themselves in a position to earn an at-large every single time, even in the years where they didn't need it.

Again, all i did was list the numbers. I don't see how any reasonably objective person can look at Butler and say they're not an elite program. They are one of the ten most accomplished programs over the past decade. The two Final Fours are their best accomplishments, but they're not their only accomplishments. Not even close. Calling it a two year run is skewing the numbers.

[danaandvictory]

Tough to say we're even on their level now.

[Snipe]

Butler even has their own Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute (http://f-garvin-mp.buhoops.yuku.com/).

Maybe they have passed us as a program. Even Garvin seems to think so.

I guess I will just be stuck with another year where we are ranked and win the A-10. Sucks to be me.

We keep banging on the door and someday that door is going to burst open. We helped Butler just last year by taking K-State to overtime. K-State came out flat against BU two days later. Without that Final Four perhaps this one doesn't happen either. Butler has taken advantage of their chances and I love to see it. I dream about that for us. I think it will happen. We are a strong program. We are strong every year.

Fred Garvin is a traitor. That is the real news. Fred Garvin is a yellowbelly turncoat, a sunshine soldier. Fred Garvin is a fair weather fan who whores himself out to the Butler BullDogs. Click the link and see for yourself.

[SixFig]

I don't think it's any coincidence that after Fred Garvin reappeared, we lost 2 in a row (Dayton and Marquette).

[PMI]

This is the most impressive small school run (Big 6 or not) that I've seen in my lifetime.


I think UNLV might have something to say about that. Unless you're referring to their actual enrollment, in which case, I think Duke might have something to say about that. What they've done is nothing short of incredible, but let's not get carried away.


It is interesting to compare who Xavier played in the Elite Eight to who Butler has played in the Elite Eight the past two years.

In 2004, Duke featured J.J. Reddick, Loul Deng, and Sheldon Williams. In 2008, UCLA featured Darren Collison, Russell Westbrook, and Kevin Love.

Those were very, very good teams.

No doubt Xavier has had the tougher draws in their "Run" years. Butler's first round games have been as difficult as any of their other tourney games these past two years. They just find ways to make games ugly and they make the important plays at the right times. There's a lot to be said about teams who can do that routinely. They are clutch and they are extremely strong-minded. They are also very lucky and have caught some great breaks. You can't take credit away but you also can't deny facts. But things are what they are, and Butler keeps making history.


To get to the Final 4 you have to win the 4 games you are given. There's no magic to it.


Exactly, and at the end of the say, you are judged on winning those four games, not on who you had to go through in them. I would love to avoid a one seed during one of our "Run" years because I think we could have two final fours under our belt if we could've done so in 04 and 08. That said, we can only boast Elite Eights, and there are no excuses for it. And Butler did beat a top seed last year.

Those guys really are good, but I will still elect to hate them. I fucking HATE them. I don't care if I don't have a better reason than they just piss me off. I'm allowed to hate them. If this were dayton going to their second straight Final Four this whole board would feel the same way, and quite frankly, I view them as rivals just like I do UC and ud. That's my choice. I respect what they've done, but I still hope they lose by 50 in the Final Four, even though they'll probably get every Kansas starter in foul trouble, hit 65% from three, get every loose ball, benefit from a clock issue, and get hit two free throws with 0.01 second left while down 1. It's just the Butler Way.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Butler is not our rival, Butler is our brother and they are doing all non bcs teams a favor. I understand we are going to be recruiting the same players now but they still havnt had the success as long as X has. If stevens leaves they will be rebuilding again and may never recover. The one thing X has going for them is they don't live in Indiana. Butler is hot with the same players minus Haywood. Lets see how they do after these guys are gone and stevens. If they still dominate then maybe we should bow to them. Until then, enjoy this awesome run by Butler, it is sooooo fun to watch these guys. :logo:

[kyxu]

No doubt Xavier has had the tougher draws in their "Run" years.

No doubt? In 2003-04, we beat a 10 seed, a 2 seed and a 3 seed. In 2007-08, we beat a 14, 6 and 7 and got housed by one of the weaker 1 seeds.

In getting to each Final Four, Butler has defeated a 1 and 2. We've never beaten a 1 seed, and only defeated a 2 seed once (Mississippi State in 2004).

The argument that Butler has had a fortuitous path to the Final Four is just ridiculous. Of course, you can only beat the teams you play, but Butler has run the gauntlet and deserve to be where they are.

I am NOT a fan of Butler, but these arguments that take away from what they have done are beyond nonsense. Seriously, if the shoe was on the other foot, and Butler was throwing up these same arguments while we were in a second straight Final Four, you all would be laughing.

[Masterofreality]

A quick review of recent history shows me the following:

-Beaknose is a Butler graduate. He then coached there.
-Beaknose carpetbagged his way to Xavier then whored himself to Oh-ho-ho State ostensibly to give himself a better chance at a National Championship. (I'm sure that money wasn't a factor).
-Other than a raccoon faced coach not calling for a foul and a Ron Lewis heave, Beaknose would have zero Final Fours.
-The major part of the team that Beaknose lucked into his Final Four with was from Indy.
-Butler now has two Final Fours. They, I believe are located in Indy.
-Beaknose still only has one. He is not located in Indy anymore.

Conclusion: Be true to your school. Karma is a bitch.

I'm happy for Butler. They have not lucked into their Final Fours. They have totally earned them, although we did help them against K-State last year. Brad Stevens is one helluva coach and, I believe, schooled Billy Donovan yesterday.

Even better. We get a chance to beat their asses again for the next two years. I'd like to see us sign a 10 year contract. A really nice regional rivalry.

[The_Mack_Pack]

Xavier had their chance against Duke in 03-04 but they just weren't going to beat UCLA. All 4 of those 1 seeds that year were amazing, unfortunately that was when Xavier had a Final Four caliber team.

[Espe]

No doubt? In 2003-04, we beat a 10 seed, a 2 seed and a 3 seed. In 2007-08, we beat a 14, 6 and 7 and got housed by one of the weaker 1 seeds.

In getting to each Final Four, Butler has defeated a 1 and 2. We've never beaten a 1 seed, and only defeated a 2 seed once (Mississippi State in 2004).

The argument that Butler has had a fortuitous path to the Final Four is just ridiculous. Of course, you can only beat the teams you play, but Butler has run the gauntlet and deserve to be where they are.

I am NOT a fan of Butler, but these arguments that take away from what they have done are beyond nonsense. Seriously, if the shoe was on the other foot, and Butler was throwing up these same arguments while we were in a second straight Final Four, you all would be laughing.

Saying UCLA was a weak 1 seed is ridiculous. That team started 4 NBA players and 2 All-Stars. I believe they only lost three games that season.

[kyxu]

Saying UCLA was a weak 1 seed is ridiculous. That team started 4 NBA players and 2 All-Stars. I believe they only lost three games that season.

I said "weaker" not "weak."

[X4LIFE]

I am so tired of reading this crap. It's great for Butler and their fans tnat they have reached two final fours. It's great for non bcs schools. But, it does not reflect on X as a program whatsoever. Our mantra this year is we do what we do, not we do what they do. Butler is having a great run. They recruited playeers who fit their coaches philosophy. They have done a marvelous job. But, we have our own program and our own philosophy and style of play. And we will reach our goals someday. Who cares where Butler is now or in the future.

[American X]

Just finished cleaning up from my head exploding. Those new Brawney paper towels really are more absorbent.

Screw you, Florida. Really, screw you. Outstanding job handing that game to Butler TWICE.

Cross-posting to Pet Peeve thread - tie game, last shot, need one point to win, JUST ONE POINT. So the obvious play is to jack an off-balance three. Why, why, why does this repeatedly happen in college basketball? Drive and draw a foul. Boynton did that first play of OT. Why didn't you do that last play of regulation, moron!?!?!

Again in OT, down 72-71, last shot, so obviously jack a 35 footer with plenty of time on the clock. That was the play two-time national champion Billy Donovan drew up in the time-out?

Unbelievable. Butler simply eliminates stupid plays from their games = difference. Fourteen year-old Bran Stevens may be the best coach in America.

[kmcrawfo]

You said that you don't consider a two year run to be long term success. They're not on a two year run. t=They're on an eleven year run. I'm not skewing numbers. I'm listing them. If I'm skewing numbers then so are the record books. I did analyze the whole picture. Well, i actually did very little analysis. I just listed it verbatum. An analysis wasn't really necessary.

In all of Butler's tournament appearances, they were seeded better than the last at-large team. Whether they received an at-large bid or not, they were in a position to get one. that's DESPITE their conference, not BECAUSE of it. The Horizon League does them no favors, yet they put themselves in a position to earn an at-large every single time, even in the years where they didn't need it.

Again, all i did was list the numbers. I don't see how any reasonably objective person can look at Butler and say they're not an elite program. They are one of the ten most accomplished programs over the past decade. The two Final Fours are their best accomplishments, but they're not their only accomplishments. Not even close. Calling it a two year run is skewing the numbers.

I would have agreed if you would have debated / quoted a 5-year run from 2007-2011 and showed those statistics. However, to argue an 11-year run when the team did not even make the tourney 4 of those 11-years is absurd. That is the team completely missing the tourney at a 40% clip. How can that be an "elite" program?

Over the last 4-5 years has Butler been an Elite program, sure. Over an 11-year period, no-way. Can't completely miss the tourney at that rate and be considered elite.

And... The reason your stats are skewed is because you bulked the missed year into one-line, placed all the wins on separate lines, and didn't comment on the frequency/temporal relationship of their wins over an 11-year period. That resulted in a skewing of the statistics which could be used to show a era of success that does not exist. Based on your reply, I don't the skewing was not intentional, but it is was there.

[xubrew]

I don't think anyone else would look at that and conclude that I was skewing the numbers. Skewing the numbers would be to say that Utah State was one of the best teams because they had one of the best overall records, while completley leaving out who they amassed that record against.

At the very least, Butler is on more than just a two year run, which is what it was originally preferred to. In reality, they entered the 2006-2007 unranked and without a single vote, won the preseason NIT, and have rarely been out of the rankings. In fact, this was probably their weakest regular season since 2006, but I guess making the Final Four offsets that.

So, Butler went on a four year run between 2000 and 2003 where they made three tournaments, barely missed one, and then made the second round and Sweet Sixteen. and then three years later they began their five year run of barely being outside the top 25, making the NCAAs without needing the automatic bid (even in the years they got it they didn't need it), making the Sweet Sixteen, and making the Final Four twice.

Maybe that's a more accurate way of looking at it. Either way, it shows that the notion of it being just a two year run is way off. THAT is skewed. If anything, missing the tournament three straight years shows that they were able to build back up once they dropped off. One can look at that and determine that it is even more of a strength. I just don't see how anyone can look at Butler and conclude that they're on the brink of fading away. Even if their coach bolts, I think Butler will probably look to hire Matt Graves five minutes afterward, and I bet they continue to win at a high clip. That approach has seemed to work for them before. They may not be a Final Four caliber team year in and year out, but neither is Michigan State, Duke, Kentucky or any other elite program. Most consider Kentucky elite, and they haven't been to the Final Four since 1998.

[PMI]

No doubt? In 2003-04, we beat a 10 seed, a 2 seed and a 3 seed. In 2007-08, we beat a 14, 6 and 7 and got housed by one of the weaker 1 seeds.

In getting to each Final Four, Butler has defeated a 1 and 2. We've never beaten a 1 seed, and only defeated a 2 seed once (Mississippi State in 2004).

The argument that Butler has had a fortuitous path to the Final Four is just ridiculous. Of course, you can only beat the teams you play, but Butler has run the gauntlet and deserve to be where they are.

I am NOT a fan of Butler, but these arguments that take away from what they have done are beyond nonsense. Seriously, if the shoe was on the other foot, and Butler was throwing up these same arguments while we were in a second straight Final Four, you all would be laughing.

I never said Butler didn't earn their way there and totally agree that they did. But come on. To say UCLA was one of the weaker one seeds is absolutely and completely false. That is one of the best rosters in college basketball in a long, long time and they played one of their greatest offensive games in the Elite Eight. This Butler team would not have stood a chance in that game and I have no problem saying that. Love and Westbrook took no time to become NBA All-Stars and Darren Collison, Mbah A'Moute (sp?) and Aaron Afflalo are all SIGNIFICANT NBA players. That is one of the strongest one seeds there's been this decade! Duke is Duke. I don't think the roster we lost to in 04 was any weaker than the one they lost to last year. Both games were close and could have gone either way. We had some really unhelpful officiating. I thought Butler has consistently had no rough breaks with the officials, and in the Michigan State game I think they flat out got the majority of the calls. All that said, I never said they had a fortuitous path to the Final Four. There's no such thing. But they did get placed in the weakest region this year, with the biggest choker in basketball history as their one seed, who they beat because of a foul on the floor 93 feet away from the basket, after beating ODU on a buzzer beater, before playing the same Wisconsin team that put up 33 points two weeks previous (not the one that one two games, they are two-faced) and then watched Florida collapse by inexplicably ignoring the inside game that got them their comfortable lead and just jacking up terrible threes the last several minutes.

We can go back to last year too. They snuck out of the first round, played Syracuse in the Sweet 16, whose style ALWAYS has a chance to fail them regardless of how good they are, and then drew a K-State team who we gassed two nights before.

I'm sorry, but if you want to talk about "eye test," I absolutely believe X has had tougher roads in their two Elite Eight years. They deserve everything they've earned without a doubt. Alright, maybe other than the Pitt and Michigan State games, but I think you know where I'm going. They are an excellent team who finds ways to win and who have the balls bounce their way. That's what they are. I wish UCLA would have played the way they played against Texas A&M in the second round or Western Kentucky in the Sweet 16, because we would have won. Butler had that luxury with Syracuse and K-State and Pittsburgh. It works both ways. People on this board all the time talk about how Huggins' Bearcats backed into a Final Four because they didn't play the top seeds. What's the difference what seeds are when you're playing teams who aren't playing nearly up to their seedings? It's a tournament of matchups and that has never been more evident than with Butler the past two years.

Again, fuck Butler.

[PMI]

Just finished cleaning up from my head exploding. Those new Brawney paper towels really are more absorbent.

Screw you, Florida. Really, screw you. Outstanding job handing that game to Butler TWICE.

Cross-posting to Pet Peeve thread - tie game, last shot, need one point to win, JUST ONE POINT. So the obvious play is to jack an off-balance three. Why, why, why does this repeatedly happen in college basketball? Drive and draw a foul. Boynton did that first play of OT. Why didn't you do that last play of regulation, moron!?!?!

Again in OT, down 72-71, last shot, so obviously jack a 35 footer with plenty of time on the clock. That was the play two-time national champion Billy Donovan drew up in the time-out?

Unbelievable. Butler simply eliminates stupid plays from their games = difference. Fourteen year-old Bran Stevens may be the best coach in America.

This. Butler wins by making the fewest mistakes. I thought we made by far the fewest mistakes in the Duke game in 04. The difference? We were Xavier and they were Duke, and the pinstripes knew it. These rules seem to not apply to Butler. Florida absolute gave that game away yesterday by taking horrible shots at the end. Butler runs are both some of the most impressive feats I've ever seen in basketball as well as THE luckiest things I've ever seen in basketball. Go on and rip me for it, but I've watched every one of the games in both runs and it constantly amazes me. We've been lucky before too, but NEVER even close to like this.

[waggy]

Don't know the numbers, but it seems to me that Butler has been kinda hot from the 3 point line in the tourney. I bet their percentages and total scoring are up considerably from the regular season.

[kmcrawfo]

I don't think anyone else would look at that and conclude that I was skewing the numbers. Skewing the numbers would be to say that Utah State was one of the best teams because they had one of the best overall records, while completley leaving out who they amassed that record against.

At the very least, Butler is on more than just a two year run, which is what it was originally preferred to. In reality, they entered the 2006-2007 unranked and without a single vote, won the preseason NIT, and have rarely been out of the rankings. In fact, this was probably their weakest regular season since 2006, but I guess making the Final Four offsets that.

So, Butler went on a four year run between 2000 and 2003 where they made three tournaments, barely missed one, and then made the second round and Sweet Sixteen. and then three years later they began their five year run of barely being outside the top 25, making the NCAAs without needing the automatic bid (even in the years they got it they didn't need it), making the Sweet Sixteen, and making the Final Four twice.

Maybe that's a more accurate way of looking at it. Either way, it shows that the notion of it being just a two year run is way off. THAT is skewed. If anything, missing the tournament three straight years shows that they were able to build back up once they dropped off. One can look at that and determine that it is even more of a strength. I just don't see how anyone can look at Butler and conclude that they're on the brink of fading away. Even if their coach bolts, I think Butler will probably look to hire Matt Graves five minutes afterward, and I bet they continue to win at a high clip. That approach has seemed to work for them before. They may not be a Final Four caliber team year in and year out, but neither is Michigan State, Duke, Kentucky or any other elite program. Most consider Kentucky elite, and they haven't been to the Final Four since 1998.

If anyone else said you didn't skew the data/numbers they would be wrong. I do this sort of thing for a living... Design trials, examine data, publish studies, etc. I don't want to spend any more time debating why your original post was skewed.

As I said in my previous reply, based on the information your provided I agreed that this is more than a 2-year run and would include Butler as an elite program over the last 5-years. Also based on the data you provided, prior to that time period they had too many droughts/absences from the tourney to be considered an elite over the more extended interval you orginally proposed.

The end result:

I was incorrect about the 2-year splash in the pan.

You are incorrect about the proposed 11-year era of dominance/eliteness

The truth lies in the middle with a very impressive/elite 5-year stint.

This is what the statistics bear-out.

[PMI]

Don't know the numbers, but it seems to me that Butler has been kinda hot from the 3 point line in the tourney. I bet their percentages and total scoring are up considerably from the regular season.

Yea, it seems like Shelvin Mack is hitting at about 60%. That kid is a beast. I don't think there's been a more impressive guard during the last two combined tournaments. It's a shame he plays on the same team as Matt Howard, I might have been able to root for him.

[kyxu]

I never said Butler didn't earn their way there and totally agree that they did. But come on. To say UCLA was one of the weaker one seeds is absolutely and completely false. That is one of the best rosters in college basketball in a long, long time and they played one of their greatest offensive games in the Elite Eight. This Butler team would not have stood a chance in that game and I have no problem saying that. Love and Westbrook took no time to become NBA All-Stars and Darren Collison, Mbah A'Moute (sp?) and Aaron Afflalo are all SIGNIFICANT NBA players. That is one of the strongest one seeds there's been this decade! Duke is Duke. I don't think the roster we lost to in 04 was any weaker than the one they lost to last year. Both games were close and could have gone either way. We had some really unhelpful officiating. I thought Butler has consistently had no rough breaks with the officials, and in the Michigan State game I think they flat out got the majority of the calls. All that said, I never said they had a fortuitous path to the Final Four. There's no such thing. But they did get placed in the weakest region this year, with the biggest choker in basketball history as their one seed, who they beat because of a foul on the floor 93 feet away from the basket, after beating ODU on a buzzer beater, before playing the same Wisconsin team that put up 33 points two weeks previous (not the one that one two games, they are two-faced) and then watched Florida collapse by inexplicably ignoring the inside game that got them their comfortable lead and just jacking up terrible threes the last several minutes.

First, my post wasn't really directed at you, but the general notion that Butler had an "easy" path to the Final Four. That is silly, and you know it is.

The whole 2008 UCLA debate is beside the point. The Bruins that year lost to the team, that lost to the national champion. So we lost to the team, that lost to the team that lost to the national champion. Unlike Butler, we weren't exactly knocking on the door. I don't care how many NBA players came from that roster. UCLA was the fourth-best one seed that year. Bruin fans were actually marveling at the game they played against us, claiming it was one of their better-played games of the year after squeaking by Texas A&M and before they lost to Memphis. Really, I don't know how you can say Butler would not have stood a chance against that UCLA team...the same one that barely got by Texas A&M and got trounced by Memphis. Who's to say Butler would not have "uglied up" a game against that UCLA team, winning 55-53 in true Butler fashion?

We all consider that UCLA team good because they destroyed us. While other teams (Western Kentucky, A&M, Memphis) were able to make it a game. If those teams could hang with that almighty UCLA Bruin team, I'm sure Butler could have as well.


We can go back to last year too. They snuck out of the first round, played Syracuse in the Sweet 16, whose style ALWAYS has a chance to fail them regardless of how good they are, and then drew a K-State team who we gassed two nights before.

I'm sorry, but if you want to talk about "eye test," I absolutely believe X has had tougher roads in their two Elite Eight years. They deserve everything they've earned without a doubt. Alright, maybe other than the Pitt and Michigan State games, but I think you know where I'm going. They are an excellent team who finds ways to win and who have the balls bounce their way. That's what they are. I wish UCLA would have played the way they played against Texas A&M in the second round or Western Kentucky in the Sweet 16, because we would have won. Butler had that luxury with Syracuse and K-State and Pittsburgh. It works both ways. People on this board all the time talk about how Huggins' Bearcats backed into a Final Four because they didn't play the top seeds. What's the difference what seeds are when you're playing teams who aren't playing nearly up to their seedings? It's a tournament of matchups and that has never been more evident than with Butler the past two years.

It's funny that we have Xavier fans talking about the "eye test." Don't we decry this test in that it gives too much emphasis on the name of the opponent, rather than their overall quality? What of this test indicates that Xavier had a tougher road going through a 14-seed Georgia (17 losses), a 6-seed Purdue (8 losses) and a 7-seed West Virginia (10 losses), when Butler took down the top 3 seeds (one of which beat us) in their region, in addition to the defending national runner-up (Michigan State)? What kind of NCAA Tournament history does Georgia, Purdue or West Virginia have over those that Butler took down? Do Georgia, Purdue and West Virginia have some history of deep runs that we've slayed, thus giving us the advantage in the all-important eye test?

People keep second-guessing Butler, and they just go out and win. We bitch and moan about the same treatment for our team, yet we don't have the same kind of success. I do not like Butler, but they are where we want to be right now.

[xubrew]

Butler has made two straight Final Fours, and beaten a #1 and #2 seed to get there each year. I've watched it with my own eyes. They have passed the eye test.

In all seriousness, the so-called "eye-test," if there even is such a thing, probably works against Butler because people aren't used to watching a team like that. Butler isn't a highlight reel. What they do that's impressive is that they seemingly get most of their rebounds before the other team even takes the shot. If you watch a lot of teams, even the best ones will have players who stop and watch the ball whenever it is released. For a split second or two, they're mesmerized by the ball the way fans at a tennis match are. They just watch it as it's in the air. As simple of a thing as it is, Butler does not do that. It seems as if the loose balls and rebounds come straight to them, but in reality Butler is just very good, maybe better than anyone else, at that one simple thing that is getting in position to get the ball.

They're not a highlight reel team....at all. But just because they don't look spectacular on a highlight reel doesn't mean that they're not good. Even if they don't pass the eye test, they beat a lot of teams that do. That has to count for quite a bit.

[muskienick]

This. Butler wins by making the fewest mistakes. I thought we made by far the fewest mistakes in the Duke game in 04. The difference? We were Xavier and they were Duke, and the pinstripes knew it. These rules seem to not apply to Butler. Florida absolute gave that game away yesterday by taking horrible shots at the end. Butler runs are both some of the most impressive feats I've ever seen in basketball as well as THE luckiest things I've ever seen in basketball. Go on and rip me for it, but I've watched every one of the games in both runs and it constantly amazes me. We've been lucky before too, but NEVER even close to like this.

Putting yourself in a position to win games because you limit your own mistakes and bring about circumstances when the opposition makes them instead is not LUCK --- it is damn good basketball. Every team experiences luck now and then. Sometimes it's good luck and sometimes it's bad. When we lose because our coach decides to let the opposition have a chance to beat us with a trey instead of commiting a non-shooting foul, we blame the referee for a bad call that he obviously did make (or, in that case, failed to make).

One can only wonder how different things would be now had the Muskies made that Final Four!

Let's not denigrate Butler's achievement by suggesting that an undo amount of good luck played an integral part in their 2 straight trips to the Final Four!

[PMI]

First, my post wasn't really directed at you, but the general notion that Butler had an "easy" path to the Final Four. That is silly, and you know it is.

The whole 2008 UCLA debate is beside the point. The Bruins that year lost to the team, that lost to the national champion. So we lost to the team, that lost to the team that lost to the national champion. Unlike Butler, we weren't exactly knocking on the door. I don't care how many NBA players came from that roster. UCLA was the fourth-best one seed that year. Bruin fans were actually marveling at the game they played against us, claiming it was one of their better-played games of the year after squeaking by Texas A&M and before they lost to Memphis. Really, I don't know how you can say Butler would not have stood a chance against that UCLA team...the same one that barely got by Texas A&M and got trounced by Memphis. Who's to say Butler would not have "uglied up" a game against that UCLA team, winning 55-53 in true Butler fashion?

We all consider that UCLA team good because they destroyed us. While other teams (Western Kentucky, A&M, Memphis) were able to make it a game. If those teams could hang with that almighty UCLA Bruin team, I'm sure Butler could have as well.



It's funny that we have Xavier fans talking about the "eye test." Don't we decry this test in that it gives too much emphasis on the name of the opponent, rather than their overall quality? What of this test indicates that Xavier had a tougher road going through a 14-seed Georgia (17 losses), a 6-seed Purdue (8 losses) and a 7-seed West Virginia (10 losses), when Butler took down the top 3 seeds (one of which beat us) in their region, in addition to the defending national runner-up (Michigan State)? What kind of NCAA Tournament history does Georgia, Purdue or West Virginia have over those that Butler took down? Do Georgia, Purdue and West Virginia have some history of deep runs that we've slayed, thus giving us the advantage in the all-important eye test?

People keep second-guessing Butler, and they just go out and win. We bitch and moan about the same treatment for our team, yet we don't have the same kind of success. I do not like Butler, but they are where we want to be right now.

UCLA the day we played them was not losing to anyone. Certainly not to Butler. It really doesn't matter if UCLA had other close games, which I mentioned as well. They played like the group of NBA stars they are that day and we all saw it. Brew is right that a huge part of Butler's success is their rebounding and hustling. Kevin Love might be the best rebounder in the world. Again, the UCLA team that day was just incredible. All this tournament determines is who the best team is for 60 minutes in each given matchup after all.

As far as I'm concerned, there's absolutely nothing wrong with critically analyzing a team without looking at numbers. I see two possible NBA players on Butler's roster, and they obviously had another one last year. They are really good when they play their best, which they have been. I'm not sure who's second-guessing Butler. I've bet on them as underdogs every game this tournament except for one because I know how they ugly the game up and make the fewest mistakes. And who would doubt that we want to be where they are? Of course we do. But none of that changes the fact that they have has a lot of luck too. They really, really have. We are a program that has had so many bad heart-breaking beats including some downright criminal calls, and they get every fucking ball to bounce their way always. So yes, it pisses me off, and I will continue to hate them, all the while respecting how great they are/boiling at how lucky they are.

I mean did anyone watch the Murray State, Syracuse, Michigan State, Old Dominion, Pittsburgh or Florida games? I'll give them this, that half court shot didn't fall for them against Duke. Tough luck there. Otherwise, they have just had an incredible streak of making excellent plays and getting big breaks. These things balance out and they will. I hope they have an offseason like we seem to have every other year or so.

[Kahns Krazy]

Or that Butler's attendance and antiquated facility is not conducive to long-term success...

You can't possibly still be serious about this argument. They have more success in the last two years than the entire A-10 conference has in the entire history of the conference.


This is pretty far from the truth.... To think that Butler run to 2-straight final fours will have anything but a negative impact on Xavier's recruiting is wishful thinking..

I think the overall impact that the level of success a non-bcs school is having will have an overall positive impact on our recruiting. You can get to the Final 4 at the non-BCS level.



im 31 years old and xavier will most likely never go to 2 final fours in my lifetime....idont care if its lightning in a bottle....give me some of that.....im so jealous its not even funny.
regardless id rather have 2 final fours then have more people in our arena night in and night out...

I don't want to sell our souls, but I tend to agree that I would trade attendance for final fours all day every day.


Brad Stevens has now reached as many Final Fours as John Calipari has had vacated.

Hilarious, repped.


They will be 10 point dogs to Kansas, right?

Not looking that way right now.

[kyxu]

You can't possibly still be serious about this argument. They have more success in the last two years than the entire A-10 conference has in the entire history of the conference.

No, I was actually mocking that argument, smart guy

[GuyFawkes38]

I think Pomeroy, using his predicting stats, said Butler has a 5% chance to win the tourney.

I'm guessing that will go up substantially.

For a while now, I've been hearing about how weak college basketball is this year. Now I believe it.

[GoMuskies]

UCLA the day we played them was not losing to anyone.

Who knows? Xavier was absolutely atrocious that afternoon. If Xavier had pushed the Bruins, there's no reason Xavier couldn't have won that game.