Butler's PROGRAM A10 Caliber? Hardly

[xudash]

Visits to other boards, primarily teams we've played or will play, take place with me over the course of the season.

I respect Butler's recent achievements, I've noted before that it would be fair to think that a move to the A10 would help them to grow in terms of key program measures - attendance, etc.

Keep in mind that we showed the A10 sustainable success in the 90's to warrant an invitation. Now read this, if it is of interest to you:

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/6997/Dawg-Pound-and-Students-what-the-hell

The A10 might be okay for Xavier moving forward. It's hard to argue that we've derived a great deal of benefit from it. I still believe the best thing for X is a hoops-centric Big East, where we pick up Gtown and Vnova, etc., enabling us to drop the A10's dead weight. The next best thing is to drop the A10's dead weight.

The KEY thing is to be careful about adding.

[Coogles]

In fairness, before that game Butler was averaging just a tick over 7,200 a game. Hardly stellar, but better than the 5,600 average of all A10 schools last year. A Monday night game against the last place team in conference, almost immediately following three straight losses, is going to depress attendance. We'll see what the crowd looks like tomorrow and Saturday. Both games are against better-known opponents and on national TV, which for whatever reason seems to help with student turnout.

I realize Xavier fans compare Butler against their own program, but they were 78th nationally in attendance last year. In the A10 only Dayton (28th), Xavier (44th), and St. Louis (73rd) had higher average attendance. Next best was Temple at 83rd with ~6,400 per game.

FWIW.

[GuyFawkes38]

At the time SLU and Charlotte joined the A10, I loved the decision. SLU poured a lot of cash into their program. Charlotte had a really good coach and a good history.

Both schools looked more promising than Butler does now.

Now, I'm not sure if SLU and Charlotte were good schools to add. Both schools seem to not like being in the A10. Thus far, they haven't added much in terms of RPI and tourney appearances. The conference now seems way too big.

Butler looks sort of good to add now. But will it in 5 or 10 years?

[CinciX12]

Butler does not have the budget for basketball that we as a conference should be interested in adding. When we see Butler make a drastic increase in funding for the program, build a new f'ing place to play basketball, then maybe. But probably not.

This year is a great example. They are not going to be consistent any time in the near future. Its not a good investment until you see proven results.

[BandAid]

The A-10 is already too big. This is a non-issue (unless one or more teams leave).

Butler is Butler. They're the George Mason of the mid-west. I wouldn't mind having George Mason over say...LaSalle. But it doesn't matter, because it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

[Coogles]

Butler does not have the budget for basketball that we as a conference should be interested in adding. When we see Butler make a drastic increase in funding for the program, build a new f'ing place to play basketball, then maybe. But probably not.

This year is a great example. They are not going to be consistent any time in the near future. Its not a good investment until you see proven results.

Butler's basketball budget last year was $2.82 million (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/110128_college_basketball_budgets&sportCat=ncb), which is plenty big for a conference like the A-10.

The problem is not MBB, it is the non-revenue sports. Chartering flights for the volleyball team or the tennis team probably isn't in the cards, which is why you likely won't see Butler leaving the Horizon for any existing conference configuration, assuming they would at all.

Personally, I'd love to see Butler and SLU head to the Valley. It's been relatively down the last couple years, but considered as a whole, the competitiveness, the tradition, and the passion of its fanbases are about as good as it gets outside the MWC in non-BCS land. Even with two pretty good teams at the top of the conference in Valpo and CSU, Horizon games are completely uninteresting to most (especially casual) fans. I think being in the Valley would give fans a real reason to keep paying attention after January 1 even when the team might not have the best national resume.

As for the "build a new gym" comment...won't happen. This program would lose any mystique and tradition that it has built by tearing down Hinkle. Instead, the plan is to -

-Maintain the external design, except for the awnings at the 4 entrances that may revert to the original since Historic Landmark was not granted until after the current "smoke" awnings installed.
-Make improvements to the interior, starting with the redesign and repurposing of the pool area in the basement for larger locker rooms, study areas, and training rooms.
-Additional concessions and ramp improvements.
-Air conditioning for the west gym.
-Plumbing improvements and better public bathrooms.
-New offices for coaches and administration.
-New seats for the entire lower bowl area with seat backs similar to the current lowest section. Upper area still to be bleachers.

[waggy]

Instead, the plan is to -

-Maintain the external design, except for the awnings at the 4 entrances that may revert to the original since Historic Landmark was not granted until after the current "smoke" awnings installed.
-Make improvements to the interior, starting with the redesign and repurposing of the pool area in the basement for larger locker rooms, study areas, and training rooms.
-Additional concessions and ramp improvements.
-Air conditioning for the west gym.
-Plumbing improvements and better public bathrooms.
-New offices for coaches and administration.
-New seats for the entire lower bowl area with seat backs similar to the current lowest section. Upper area still to be bleachers.

Renovation is the smart move. Of course, the level of renovation is important.

[Juice]

Butler's basketball budget last year was $2.82 million (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/110128_college_basketball_budgets&sportCat=ncb), which is plenty big for a conference like the A-10.

The problem is not MBB, it is the non-revenue sports. Chartering flights for the volleyball team or the tennis team probably isn't in the cards, which is why you likely won't see Butler leaving the Horizon for any existing conference configuration, assuming they would at all.

Personally, I'd love to see Butler and SLU head to the Valley. It's been relatively down the last couple years, but considered as a whole, the competitiveness, the tradition, and the passion of its fanbases are about as good as it gets outside the MWC in non-BCS land. Even with two pretty good teams at the top of the conference in Valpo and CSU, Horizon games are completely uninteresting to most (especially casual) fans. I think being in the Valley would give fans a real reason to keep paying attention after January 1 even when the team might not have the best national resume.

As for the "build a new gym" comment...won't happen. This program would lose any mystique and tradition that it has built by tearing down Hinkle. Instead, the plan is to -

-Maintain the external design, except for the awnings at the 4 entrances that may revert to the original since Historic Landmark was not granted until after the current "smoke" awnings installed.
-Make improvements to the interior, starting with the redesign and repurposing of the pool area in the basement for larger locker rooms, study areas, and training rooms.
-Additional concessions and ramp improvements.
-Air conditioning for the west gym.
-Plumbing improvements and better public bathrooms.
-New offices for coaches and administration.
-New seats for the entire lower bowl area with seat backs similar to the current lowest section. Upper area still to be bleachers.

I just read the other day, can't remember where but I think it was on CBS's college basketball blog, that Butler has raised or was given the money to renovate Hinkle.

[Blue Blooded-05]

I just read the other day, can't remember where but I think it was on CBS's college basketball blog, that Butler has raised or was given the money to renovate Hinkle.

Good. I hope they don't move. I liked the venue a lot last year in terms of a venue for watching basketball. However, the bathrooms and consessions haven't been updated since the Hoover administration and even a 1980's scoreboard for replay would have been nice as the mess unfolded at the end of the game.

Butler is a good program but I don't see their image progressing past "flash-in-the-pan" status until they commit money to their facilities. Seems to me they could do this without compromising the nostalgic feel. I hope they do because I'd personally like to be in the same conference.

Side question: Anyone know if Hinkle is deemed a "historic landmark?" I went to a USC football game at The Coliseum a few years ago and their fans were telling me they couldn't upgrade it -- add luxury boxes, a better pressbox, etc -- because of this. I don't know squat about that kind of stuff but I wonder if Hinkle could fall in the same category.

[xudash]

"Butler's basketball budget last year was $2.82 million..., which is plenty big for a conference like the A-10."

Coogles, I presume you realize we spend over $4 million on basketball per annum.

$2.8 million in this league is insufficient for competing at the top of it.

[Coogles]

"Butler's basketball budget last year was $2.82 million..., which is plenty big for a conference like the A-10."

Coogles, I presume you realize we spend over $4 million on basketball per annum.

$2.8 million in this league is insufficient for competing at the top of it.

Xavier also has the largest budget in the A10 by a significant margin. Xavier is the outlier, not the standard in the conference.

Fact is, a $2.8 million budget would put Butler in the top third of the A10. Temple won a share of the regular season title and won the A10 tournament with their $2.8 million budget. That seems pretty competitive to me.

[LutherRackleyRulez]

Per Huffington Post.....


Matt Howard Bloody Face:
Butler Star Elbowed In The Head Under The Basket (VIDEO)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/09/matt-howard-bloody-injury-video_n_820578.html

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/85243/butler_medium.jpg

[kyxu]

$2.8 million in this league is insufficient for competing at the top of it.

And yet, Butler would be one of the top teams in the conference.

I don't at all see how them spending "just" $2.8 million in basketball would impede them from being a dominant team in the conference, especially with the quality of people they have running their program. Yes, money is important, but you need to have vision, too.

[xubrew]

i was just thinking that it had been at least a couple of weeks since dash went off on some rant about how bad a fit butler would be for the atlantic ten. it's a very strange thing to be fixated on. no one is really talking about why they should be in the atlantic ten, the atlantic ten is not looking to expand, and as far as i know butler isn't looking to leave the horizon to join any conference, much less the atlantic ten. however, you can count on dash to list a bunch of reasons (mainly attendance, which has no impact on shared revenue anyway) as to why something that isn't going to happen, and that no one thinks is going to happen, shouldn't happen.

rhode island leaving for the colonial would be a horrible idea. bad business move and bad fit for the program overall. they just shouldn't do it. sure, they're affiliate members in football, but becoming full members would generate far less tv and postseason revenue. every couple of weeks i'm going to post a bunch of reasons out of the blue as to why rhode island should not join the colonial, even though no one really thinks they will anyway...

[xudash]

It's interesting how we perceive things differently around here.

brew, you come away from the thread, believing that I'm on a crusade or rant, especially against Butler.

I view the conference realignment topic as a 365 day topic; it isn't going away, and something material will happen again that will affect Xavier. I personally believe the next go-around will involve and opportunity for Xavier to really "solve" for the conference affiliation piece of the puzzle, given that we have everything else is excellent shape. So I watch that aspect of the program as I also enjoy the current season. IF something of note comes up, I'll tend to post about it.

I made the post with the link to the Butler thread because I found it very interesting that their own fan base was lamenting poor support from their student section and, by extension, overall bad attendance for the fan base.

As I noted at the beginning of that post, I visit other boards from time to time over the course of the season. The thread was there. I didn't start it. It contained rather damning commentary by Butler fans, regarding an issue that is important to the health of any program. Had the thread not been there, we wouldn't be here now. I'm not looking for problems. I don't have it in for Butler.

However, I've been clear in expressing a major concern I have about Butler with respect to its fan support. The amount of success that program has been able to generate continues to fail to generate a commensurate amount of fan (attendance) support. 7k and change now doesn't cut it, because, if they fall off, the fall off will look like a DC crowd for GW, as one example. That's my opinion.

My PROGRAM benchmark for contemplating a conference affiliation includes Xavier. If anyone believes that $2.8 million is sufficient, so be it. The schools going after the national rankings, national publicity, strong traditions of success and national championships don't put together budgets like that. It costs money to sustain success at the top.

As far as conference realignment is concerned, I believe something will happen, so I chose to chime in about it from time to time. There will be a best case, worst case and some middle scenario that may come from all that. It won't be about jumping on a hot thing or availability combined with groveling. It - I hope - will be about certain schools meeting for the purpose of establishing strong expectations, such that, as any season progresses, RPI rankings and other key measures of success don't degrade simply as a result of playing a conference game.

If Butler were averaging attendance results as we averaged them in the Cincinnati Gardens, this wouldn't be on the radar screen with me.

Frankly, the pivot point right now seems to be in the control of the BE. They're continuing their efforts to solve for football. Villanova is dragging its feet on its decision, conducting more studies and surveys. Nova's fanbase, at least their message board, is furious over a lack of a movement. They see a decline for their basketball program in the event the school doesn't go BCS football.

[GuyFawkes38]

Per Huffington Post.....


Matt Howard Bloody Face:
Butler Star Elbowed In The Head Under The Basket (VIDEO)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/09/matt-howard-bloody-injury-video_n_820578.html

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/85243/butler_medium.jpg





So that's the content that AOL is paying 300 million to get.

[whitesox]

Butler's basketball budget last year was $2.82 million (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/110128_college_basketball_budgets&sportCat=ncb), which is plenty big for a conference like the A-10.

The problem is not MBB, it is the non-revenue sports. Chartering flights for the volleyball team or the tennis team probably isn't in the cards, which is why you likely won't see Butler leaving the Horizon for any existing conference configuration, assuming they would at all.



Have you seen our budget for non-revenue sports? It is pathetic for the most part.

[golfitup]

And yet, Butler would be one of the top teams in the conference.

I don't at all see how them spending "just" $2.8 million in basketball would impede them from being a dominant team in the conference, especially with the quality of people they have running their program. Yes, money is important, but you need to have vision, too.

Wouldn't let me rep you. Who cares about the budget. They produce a good product and are a very good program. Who would you rather have? Butler or the Bonnies, Fordham, Lasalle, or Duquesne?

[Masterofreality]

Butler's crowd tonight is 9,000- their largest crowd of the year.

Xavier gets 9,000 for a scrimmage.

9,000 beats F-m and Lossalle though.