Gabrielle Giffords

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Congresswoman from Arizona, was shot today. The shooter is in his '20's' and was tackled after allegedly shooting 12 people.

The DNC Western US Political Director Ed Espinoza, Giffords district director, and Press secretary were also shot.

Awful awful news

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/gabrielle-giffords-shot-c_n_806211.html

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/08/arizona-congresswoman-reportedly-shot-public-event/

UPDATE: At least 6 people killed

[Porkopolis]

Terrible news. A member of Congress doing exactly what a member of Congress is meant to do--listening to constituents--is needlessly gunned down and others are wounded with her. What a horrible tragedy.

[Xavgrad08]

My thoughts and prayers are with her family.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Apparently they have retracted the statement of her death at the moment, but she is in critical condition. She was shot point blank in the head.

Espinoza says that the shooter "called out names of people as aiming at targets."

[BBC 08]

I'm not dead yet. I think I'll go for a walk. I feel happy. /Monty Python'd /shows self door for joke in poor taste.

[GoMuskies]

Nevermind. Already covered.

[STL_XUfan]

And disturbing political twist to this awful story:

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/08/congresswoman-gabrie.html

Thoughts are with the family members of the victims.

[vee4xu]

I absolutely am praying for Congresswoman Giffords, but am praying more for our country. I have so many things going through my mind that I would love to post here, but it would be disrespectful to this woman and her family to go there. I just hope that those who perpetrated this event look at themselves in the mirror and get right with God. Not the God of divisiveness, but the merciful and loving God that created us all to live in a country that espouses freedom of expression without fear of retribution.

God forbid this woman dies or is unable to serve, I will be watching very closely how she is replaced and with whom.

[xsteve1]

Shooting people over politics, ridiculous. Execute that bastard who shot her and the others ASAP.

[golfitup]

Shooting people over politics, ridiculous. Execute that bastard who shot her and the others ASAP.

I hope Arizona has the death penalty.

[GuyFawkes38]

And disturbing political twist to this awful story:

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/08/congresswoman-gabrie.html

Thoughts are with the family members of the victims.

yep, I had a feeling that some in the left would blame Sarah Palin.

[XULucho27]

I hope Arizona has the death penalty.

They do, and I think killing government officials usually makes a crime death penalty eligible regardless of mitigating circumstances. This dude is going down.

[BBC 08]

yep, I had a feeling that some in the left would blame Sarah Palin.

Not really blaming, more pointing out she has lead with what some would call violent rhetoric.

[GuyFawkes38]

Not really blaming, more pointing out she has lead with what some would call violent rhetoric.

from what I've read, this guy is a sick, sick person. He sounds much more like an anarchist against Washington in general (has some strange writing about how the government is trying to control his mind and how he's combating that with sleepwalking techniques). One of his favorite books is the communist manifesto. He believes that the American constitution should be rejected.

It's just shallow to argue that he was in anyway inspired by the american right.

[The_Mack_Pack]

I'm wondering how a guy with a gun is able to get close enough to a congresswoman to shoot her point blank and then go on to shoot 12 other people before being tackled, what kind of security is that? Just a terrible tragedy.

[Benxman]

Those who would equate Sarah Palin with this violent act are as sick as the actual perpetrators! Come on people, use your head. Sarah Palin was using a common analogy. If her website had anything at all to do with this/these wackos shooting up a town meeting, and I am sure it did not, I am sure Mrs. Palin would be more horrified than anyone else.

Let's not let our political bias and animosity get in the way of logical thinking. After all, most of us, if not all, took logic at X. For heaven's sake use it!

GO MUSKIES!


:logo:

[GuyFawkes38]

Here's a good site that describes his insane beliefs:

http://xpostfactoid.blogspot.com/2011/01/jared-lee-loughton-fallenasleep.html

[bobbiemcgee]

Sarah has taken both the sites down now.

[GuyFawkes38]

Sarah has taken both the sites down now.

Of course, that logically means that she inspired the shooter, right?

[vee4xu]

Nut jobs are at times inspired by some lofty personality that makes the act. Mark David Chapman killed John Lennon for his delusional love for Jodie Foster. The gunman in Arizona today may be a nut case, but he, like Chapman needs some nudge from his jumping place to commit this crime. Who knows if Ms. Palin provided the nudge to this nut, but she at least has to be on the list of candidates.

[GuyFawkes38]

Nut jobs are at times inspired by some lofty personality that makes the act. Mark David Chapman killed John Lennon for his delusional love for Jodie Foster. The gunman in Arizona today may be a nut case, but he, like Chapman needs some nudge from his jumping place to commit this crime. Who knows if Ms. Palin provided the nudge to this nut, but she at least has to be on the list of candidates.

This is just a lazy paragraph.

Really read about his beliefs:

http://xpostfactoid.blogspot.com/2011/01/jared-lee-loughton-fallenasleep.html

Does that sound like someone "nudged" by Sarah Palin?

[bobbiemcgee]

Of course, that logically means that she inspired the shooter, right?

No, just means she corrected her poor taste in advertising. Guess if she felt there was nothing wrong with it she would have left it up. Anyway, she'll get a couple hundred grand to say why she took it down, so all is good.

[SixFig]

May the congresswoman rest in peace.

This could be a controversial statement, but maybe this will be a turning point in the gun movement. Let's hope some good comes of this.

[GuyFawkes38]

May the congresswoman rest in peace.

This could be a controversial statement, but maybe this will be a turning point in the gun movement. Let's hope some good comes of this.

This sort of thing almost never happens (really, I can't recall the last assassination attempt on a congressmen). I hope that people don't overreact.

Just stay calm and carry on. Gun laws shouldn't be blamed. Sarah Palin shouldn't be blamed. Video games shouldn't be blamed. Violent movies shouldn't be blamed.

It's just a nutcase.

[vee4xu]

This is just a lazy paragraph.

Really read about his beliefs:

http://xpostfactoid.blogspot.com/2011/01/jared-lee-loughton-fallenasleep.html

Does that sound like someone "nudged" by Sarah Palin?

Unless you are a psychiatrist I am not going to put any stock into how you think a psychotic may think. I also can care less about your critique of my writing. Frankly, I read your stuff and don't take any of it seriously. In fact, I have no idea why I am engaged with your nonsense on this topic. I must be borderline psychotic to be doing so. So, I'll quit doing so.

[GuyFawkes38]

Unless you are a psychiatrist I am not going to put any stock into how you think a psychotic may think. I also can care less about your critique of my writing. Frankly, I read your stuff and don't take any of it seriously. In fact, I have no idea why I am engaged with your nonsense on this topic. I must be borderline psychotic to be doing so. So, I'll quit doing so.

Vee, I just think that was a lazy argument. Don't take it so personal.

You said that Sarah Palin might have "nudged" him or she might have not "nudged" him. That's not very insightful.

You refused to look into his belief system (which there happens to a lot of evidence of, thanks to youtube, myspace, etc...this guy wanted his message out there before he died).

[Benxman]

SixFig

"This could be a controversial statement, but maybe this will be a turning point in the gun movement. Let's hope some good comes of this."

I guess that depends on your definition of good.

The constitution guarantees the right to carry fire arms.
Having said that, the other day I got a call from some guy with the NRA, asking for donations. I told him I think he and his group are a bunch of nuts. I guess that puts me somewhere in the middle. I don't want to ban guns, but really, does everybody really need to be running around armed all the time. That is kind of like the old west. I don't think any of us wants or needs to go back to that mentality.

Here is the problem IMHO:
Our current "Nanny State" mode makes it almost a sure thing that the moment something happens that someone can blame on an inanimate object (ie. guns, cell phones, cigarettes, etc.), the kneejerk reaction is to ban the cause of the problem. (Of course the source of the problem is the inanimate object, right? Wrong! It is people caused, not object caused.)

Go ahead and have your arguement, I have more important things to do, like take a whiz.

GO MUSKIES!

:logo:

[xavierj]

Nut jobs are at times inspired by some lofty personality that makes the act. Mark David Chapman killed John Lennon for his delusional love for Jodie Foster. The gunman in Arizona today may be a nut case, but he, like Chapman needs some nudge from his jumping place to commit this crime. Who knows if Ms. Palin provided the nudge to this nut, but she at least has to be on the list of candidates.

How about we just blame the nutcase himself? Why does it always have to be someone else's fault? Fuck the nut and put him where he belongs. Just hold the people who do stupid stuff accountable and stop trying to place blame on other people.

[ConfusedBulldog]

This could be a controversial statement, but maybe this will be a turning point in the gun movement. Let's hope some good comes of this.

Every time there's a incident with a gun people harp on gun rights. Politicizing and using this tragic event to further your own beliefs (or anyone's for that matter) is a myopic and rash decision. Equally ignorant was the near-immediate jump to claim that Sarah Palin, or for that matter any political party, was a factor in this event. Imprudent and aggressive rhetoric is all too common in the media and news. Google "crosshairs" and you'll find many articles on celebrities to athletes who are in the "crosshairs" or have been "targeted." No one is implying they should be hurt and no one should use that rhetoric in a Chapman-esque fashion to justify violence.

I do think the good that will come from this event is tightened security for our elected officials and more cautious use of violent rhetoric by politicians (or at least, the Tea Party and Palin.)

(Kicks away soap box )

[Benxman]

XavierJ, Amen, brother. At last someone got it right!

GO MUSKIES!

:logo:

[mohr5150]

This guy was a nutjob. If you read any of the drivel he had written on the web, most of it didn't make any sense. He deserves to be locked away for the rest of his life. To kill him is just an easy out for him. Let's all pray the Congresswoman can heal and live some type of productive life. I could see this become something similar to when Brady was shot and it led to his spending the rest of his life fighting for gun control of some sort. Very unfortunate, indeed. My prayers are with the family members of those who lost their lives today and for those who were injured.

[GuyFawkes38]

Just to note, the last congressmen assassinated was Leo Ryan in 1978 by Jim Jones and his followers in South America.

That was quite an odd situation. Visiting a cult in the middle of a jungle that was about to commit mass suicide is quite a different situation than the shooting in Tucson.

I've heard Glen Beck on the radio blaming the left for Jim Jones and his group. That's just as mind boggling shallow as those blaming Sarah Palin and the Tea Party right now.

Anyways, this happens very, very rarely. Very sad.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

There is another suspect they are actively pursuing.

This is not over yet. This will put a swift end to "Town Hall" like meetings in the future and other things of that nature without intense security.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Vee, I just think that was a lazy argument. Don't take it so personal.

You said that Sarah Palin might have "nudged" him or she might have not "nudged" him. That's not very insightful.

You refused to look into his belief system (which there happens to a lot of evidence of, thanks to youtube, myspace, etc...this guy wanted his message out there before he died).

I don't believe in any way Palin helped this psycho - and I am not a Palin fan by any means. But you have to admit that having targets on politicians on a website(including the one shot) and calling to "take them out" does not bode well for her 2012 run.

However, the political rhetoric on both sides of the political spectrum is out of hand. The right calls the left Marxists or Communists at a moments whim while the left calls the right Nazis or fascists. It's out of control. Both parties are so far from those political spectrums that its even absurd to attach those names to either. The centrists and the common sense majority has got to step up and come together.

Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, speaking about Arizona:

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. And, unfortunately, Arizona I think has become sort of the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry.

"It's not unusual for all public officials to get threats constantly, myself included. And that's the sad thing of what's going on in America. Pretty soon, we're not going to be able to find reasonable, decent people who are willing to subject themselves to serve in public office."

[vee4xu]

Vee, I just think that was a lazy argument. Don't take it so personal.

You said that Sarah Palin might have "nudged" him or she might have not "nudged" him. That's not very insightful.

You refused to look into his belief system (which there happens to a lot of evidence of, thanks to youtube, myspace, etc...this guy wanted his message out there before he died).

I was just cranky at the time when I typed that. Sorry about that. Who knows why the guy did what he did. We can all agree it's tragic and we pray for the victims and their families.

[GuyFawkes38]

I was just cranky at the time when I typed that. Sorry about that. Who knows why the guy did what he did. We can all agree it's tragic and we pray for the victims and their families.

Definitely. My tone was too acerbic. I apologize.


I don't believe in any way Palin helped this psycho - and I am not a Palin fan by any means. But you have to admit that having targets on politicians on a website(including the one shot) and calling to "take them out" does not bode well for her 2012 run.

However, the political rhetoric on both sides of the political spectrum is out of hand. The right calls the left Marxists or Communists at a moments whim while the left calls the right Nazis or fascists. It's out of control. Both parties are so far from those political spectrums that its even absurd to attach those names to either. The centrists and the common sense majority has got to step up and come together.

Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, speaking about Arizona:

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. And, unfortunately, Arizona I think has become sort of the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry.

"It's not unusual for all public officials to get threats constantly, myself included. And that's the sad thing of what's going on in America. Pretty soon, we're not going to be able to find reasonable, decent people who are willing to subject themselves to serve in public office."


But, IMHO, intense political rhetoric doesn't have a thing to do with it.

Again, look at his beliefs. In many ways they are the opposite of the tea party. He calls for the rejection of the Constitution and the complete overthrow of the US government. He lists the Communist Manifesto as one of his favorite books.

I visit the AZ forum site sometimes to see what they think about Miller.

Right now many are quite embarrassed by their sheriff blaming the state of Arizona (http://forum.goazcats.com/showthread.php?t=106681&page=26).

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Definitely. My tone was way too acerbic.

But, IMHO, "intense political rhetoric" doesn't have a thing to do with it.

Again, look at his beliefs. In many ways they are the opposite of the tea party. He calls for the rejection of the Constitution and the complete overthrow of the US government. He lists the Communist Manifesto as one of his favorite books.

.
He likes the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf. He claimed that the government was imposing "mind control and brainwash on the people" and called for a return to the gold standard. In one video, which contained a series of text set to music, he made reference to revolution and told viewers: "You don't have to accept the federalist laws".

I don't think he's a representative of any party in the US. He's just a young POS. He rambles about unconstitutionalism one minute and then argues for the removal of it the next. The kid is all over the map

[GuyFawkes38]

He likes the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf. He claimed that the government was imposing "mind control and brainwash on the people" and called for a return to the gold standard. In one video, which contained a series of text set to music, he made reference to revolution and told viewers: "You don't have to accept the federalist laws".

I don't think he's a representative of any party in the US. He's just a young POS. He rambles about unconstitutionalism one minute and then argues for the removal of it the next.

definitely. My fault. I didn't mean to say he was influenced more by the left. He's just insane.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

definitely. My fault. I didn't mean to say he was influenced more by the left. He's just insane.

Nah I understand where your coming from. No need to apologize. I didn't clarify my post enough either.

Regardless, we'll find out a lot more after this 50 year old is captured.

[Snipe]

http://www.hypebeast.com/image/2007/10/death-of-president-neighborhood.jpg

A book was written about killing George Bush. A play was performed on stage killing George Bush, and of course the movie above was about killing George Bush. These were all separate liberal-artsy things. It wasn't the same book that inspired the play and the play was an entirely different venture from the movie. They were all different creative endeavors. I watched the movie pictured above just for a good laugh. Then I watched the bonus coverage on the DVD.

I couldn't imagine seeing it at the time it was in cinemas or was on the new release wall. I didn't want to give them my money. I chuckled at Blockbuster when I rented it for 99 cents because I could only imagine what would happen if a conservative made an identical movie today.

After watching it I feel the same way. It wasn't poorly done but I think it could have been better. It was slow. I would not recommend it. It did win some awards. I doubt a movie about killing Obama would win any awards.

The director was interviewed in the bonus section of the DVD and he was so excited when they came up with the idea of killing George Bush. Imagine how a conservative would be portrayed if he acted with glee at the notion of making a realistic film showing Obama's death.


"Kill George Bush" on Bing.com gets 108 million results.

"Kill Barack Obama" gets 268 thousand results.

http://static.binscorner.com/d/death-threats-against-bush-at-protests-i/125107024036.jpg

That caption ran on the CBS Network, on Craig Kilborn's show. Imagine if we substituted Mr. Obama.

I am glad that the left is so concerned about the vitriol and harsh rhetoric in politics these days.

[Strange Brew]

Interesting site with a lot of info on the man in custody. (Fair notice the author has a right leaning bias). But the screengrabs of the accused now scrubbed MySpace page and tweats from High School classmates give interesting insight into this "person"

http://hillbuzz.org/2011/01/08/my-congresswoman-voted-against-nancy-pelosi-and-is-now-dead-to-me-eerie-daily-kos-hit-piece-on-gabrielle-giffords-just-two-days-before-assassination-attempt-on-her/


Prayers to the family of all the victims. I'd like nothing better than for the Congresswoman to make a full recovery.

[Porkopolis]

I am saddened--though not surprised--by how quickly this has been made into a political issue where each side is blaming the other. Everything that is wrong with american politics is being put on display.

[xavierj]

I am saddened--though not surprised--by how quickly this has been made into a political issue where each side is blaming the other. Everything that is wrong with american politics is being put on display.

and it is all about getting votes and money. What a joke and what a bunch of scum bags and that goes for about 90% of those in politics. No wonder our country is a mess.

[DC Muskie]

It's really amazing to me. A woman was shot in the head, a federal judge was killed a 9 year old girl lost her life, but Snipe wants us to know there were more bing hits on killing George Bush than Obama.

Seriously. A woman is battling for her life, and Snipe wants to pontificate on what if conservatives made a movie about killing the current president.

We can't take this one moment for prayers, for catching anyone else who was associated with this act, and find out the reasons why this happened.

Nope we have to read how Snipe took a night to watch a movie about killing George Bush, and wonder how the entire country would act if they made the same thing about Obama.

I mean really. Great point Snipe.

My prayers to the family who were effected by this real life, actual tragedy.

[Emp]

"Politicize" is not a dirty word unless you don't like the politics. Congress is politicizing the Constitution on the floor of the House. The NRA is politicizing Concealed carry in bars and restaurants in Ohio. It's the first amendment, I have no problem with these tactics, even if I question the underlying point of view.

I do have a problem with equating opposition to crosshair targeting. From any side. The Bush movie was disgusting and idiotic. I also have a problem with mob shoutdowns and gun toting at town meetings. I also have a problem with gun-toting intimidation outside polling places in Philly.

Discussions of whether Palin is to blame in this particular instance is ludicrous and misses the wider point, which is that cumulative demonizing and hate rhetoric IS going to influence some people at the margins, demented or otherwise, to take violent action. Until people on the opposite sides of issues stop deliberately demonizing the people on the other side of an issue, and separate policy differences from the real persons who represent the opposite side, we are going to continue a downward spiral.

While the distinction between a fatwah on a Pakistani politician who finds anti-blaspemy laws anti-democratic and crosshair targeting of a congress woman seems real to you and me, the fervor of a motivated and passionate assassin is in both cases stirred and spurred by the same basic pschology: the Devil must be killed. Aiding and abetting, encouraging and providing hateful motivation to kill is simply wrong, and should stop.

[STL_XUfan]

Discussions of whether Palin is to blame in this particular instance is ludicrous and misses the wider point, which is that cumulative demonizing and hate rhetoric IS going to influence some people at the margins, demented or otherwise, to take violent action. Until people on the opposite sides of issues stop deliberately demonizing the people on the other side of an issue, and separate policy differences from the real persons who represent the opposite side, we are going to continue a downward spiral.

+1

[bobbiemcgee]

Yes - lots of hate, anger, recriminations, bitterness, bad blood - you name it. Could get even uglier.

[spazzrico]

I do have a problem with equating opposition to crosshair targeting. From any side. The Bush movie was disgusting and idiotic. I also have a problem with mob shoutdowns and gun toting at town meetings. I also have a problem with gun-toting intimidation outside polling places in Philly.

Discussions of whether Palin is to blame in this particular instance is ludicrous and misses the wider point, which is that cumulative demonizing and hate rhetoric IS going to influence some people at the margins, demented or otherwise, to take violent action. Until people on the opposite sides of issues stop deliberately demonizing the people on the other side of an issue, and separate policy differences from the real persons who represent the opposite side, we are going to continue a downward spiral.


Whether or not Palin's influence can be linked to this is anyone's guess that we can't know at the moment, or may never know. That said, she will be linked in the public mind regardless due to the cross-hairs website. It is very, very damaging to her reputation; especially if she intends to run for POTUS.

[XUOWNSUC]

I have no problem w/ Snipes comments. You got stupid articles and comments like these out there:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/08/giffords-had-history-with-palin-tea-party/#comments

Snipe is merely pointing out that it goes both ways.

[Snipe]

It's really amazing to me. A woman was shot in the head, a federal judge was killed a 9 year old girl lost her life, but Snipe wants us to know there were more bing hits on killing George Bush than Obama.

Seriously. A woman is battling for her life, and Snipe wants to pontificate on what if conservatives made a movie about killing the current president.

We can't take this one moment for prayers, for catching anyone else who was associated with this act, and find out the reasons why this happened.

Nope we have to read how Snipe took a night to watch a movie about killing George Bush, and wonder how the entire country would act if they made the same thing about Obama.

I mean really. Great point Snipe.

My prayers to the family who were effected by this real life, actual tragedy.

She was in my prayers the moment I heard of the shooting. Her aide, the Judge, the child and all the others too. It is horrific stuff. I posted 12 hours after this thread started, in the 40th post. Sarah Palin was brought up within an hour. You may have missed this in your hyper rush to sneer. I don't know what it is, but the reflexive part of liberalism is immediately taking the moral high ground and looking down on your opponents. Maybe the is one of the problems of our politics.

Maybe you missed the other posts:


And disturbing political twist to this awful story:



the God of divisiveness


Not really blaming, more pointing out she has lead with what some would call violent rhetoric.


Who knows if Ms. Palin provided the nudge to this nut, but she at least has to be on the list of candidates.


No, just means she corrected her poor taste in advertising. Guess if she felt there was nothing wrong with it she would have left it up. Anyway, she'll get a couple hundred grand to say why she took it down, so all is good.



This could be a controversial statement, but maybe this will be a turning point in the gun movement. Let's hope some good comes of this.


you have to admit that having targets on politicians on a website(including the one shot) and calling to "take them out" does not bode well for her 2012 run.

...

Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, speaking about Arizona:

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. And, unfortunately, Arizona I think has become sort of the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry.

"It's not unusual for all public officials to get threats constantly, myself included. And that's the sad thing of what's going on in America. Pretty soon, we're not going to be able to find reasonable, decent people who are willing to subject themselves to serve in public office."

I mean really. Great point DC.

Paul Krugman didn't take long to blame Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin. The left jumped all over this from a political standpoint right off the bat.

Oklahoma City was a saving grace for the Clinton Administration. It turned his numbers around and he actively worked the effort to his benefit. Dick Morris has had some candid accounts of that since he was working for Clinton at the time. Never let a crisis go to waste as they say. And surely you can't but help to use this time to personally attack me DC. I would expect no less. Well played.

[Snipe]

I am saddened--though not surprised--by how quickly this has been made into a political issue where each side is blaming the other. Everything that is wrong with american politics is being put on display.

Are both sides really to blame? Did one side come right out and blame the other right off the bat? If you look at the blogosphere and the Paul Krugmans of the world, or sites like Memeorandum.com it appears to me that this was made into a political issue by the left to tar the right with. Look at the chronology and the time-line.

To make this into a political issue without knowing the facts is not a good thing, but if you want to throw blame around for that I would look at the left. It was used to attack Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and the Tea Party.

Bill Clinton used Oklahoma City in the same way to outstanding effectiveness. This is part and parcel of the Democratic Party game-plan. It doesn't matter if the guy lists the Communist Manifesto as one of his favorite books or that he was clearly a mental patient in the making.

I wouldn't blame both sides equally for this display. Try to look at it objectively.

[Strange Brew]

Krugman needs to stick to econonics (although he's been dining out on New New Trade Theory for far too long now). Personally, I want him to refund my money for the text book written by him that I was forced to buy last semester. He is a dolt on anything other than NNTT.

[Titanxman04]

I did not read this whole thread, so I apologize for posting something repetitive ahead of time.

I watched the story on the news last night and I was stunned. It's a terrible thing whenever anyone is shot, but the thing that upsets me most was the death of that 9 year old girl.

I cannot imagine (and I am thankful I can't) how anyone can shoot at someone so young. Perhaps the idea of killing or injuring is the same no matter the age of the individual down your sights, or perhaps it takes a different mindset to shoot a child and an adult. I do not know. But to shoot at a child is unbelievable. This selfish asshole does not deserve the death penalty. That would be far too generous.

Its a terrible thing to see someones life snuffed out before they truly have a chance to live it. Its the right and privilege for everyone to live out their lives to the fullest, and even with kids in college and high school, they have at least had the opportunity to experience love, anger, and so many other emotions and have the ability to comprehend it with some maturity at least. However, as a 9 year old, I could remember experiencing such feelings but not always understanding them. Its a shame that this little girl will never be able to do such a thing.

Anger is something that is so easily thrown out in our lives, and especially on a message board such as this one. Conflicts with fellow posters that involve myself and those that involve others on this board come off as trivial and immature when paired with such a tragic incident. Frustration will always be there, but its these kind of things that make one being angry after a basketball game seem childish and a waste of emotions.

I pray for the families. I pray for the victims. And I pray that there can be some semblance of peace and hope through this terrible event.

[DC Muskie]

Snipe-

You don't live in reality. People are dead. That's reality. What exactly is the point of when you rushed to your keyboard to make sure everyone here knew about dumbass movie you decided to watch and wonder what the left would say if another dumbass movie was made discussing the killing of the current president?

Who cares how long you took to make your dumbass point? You certainly didn't come here to tell everyone that you are praying for people who are actually dead. You made the point about how the left would react if someone, somewhere, made a movie about killing Obama.

And now you want to make up something about me. Again, not reality.

This is just hilarious:

I don't know what it is, but the reflexive part of liberalism is immediately taking the moral high ground and looking down on your opponents

That's all you ever do on this site Snipe. For years. This statement about you make about the liberal left. You act like some voice of reason, some semblance of reality. Good for you for waiting for 40 posts to come up before you you tell us how something that never happened, how hypocritical the reaction would be. How do you compete with that? That's just top notch.

A woman who I know you don't agree with politically Snipe is battling for her life. The only person to blame is the guy who pulled the trigger. It's not about blaming others like Beck, or Rush, or Palin.

So carry on Snipe. You are the voice of reason.

[DC Muskie]

try to look at it objectively.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha.

[Snipe]

On a side note, anyone remember after 9/11 when people were urged to not say "the bomb" during NFL games? I was thinking about that. It is again OK to throw "the bomb" on NFL Sunday. I think that is a good thing. Some of that was out of sensitivity to 9/11 victims. I don't understand why they would have been offended. I doubt they would have been. But once that starts you are a bad guy if you say "the bomb". And some of that is the politically correct sentiment that our language encourages violence, and that saying "the bomb" in the NFL actually encourages violence (as Emp would say) "at the margins".

I am generally against killing people if they are innocent, unless they are a threat to the life of the mother. I am all for killing the guilty. I heard that Father Fred Phelps of Westboro Baptist Church will be protesting the funeral of the 9 year old girl that was killed yesterday at this mass shooting. My first thought was that if I was dying of cancer I would love to take him out.

Is it bad to say that? I wouldn't cry if he was dead. I think society would be better off. But what if somebody reads what I say and thinks it is a good idea? What if they kill him for the benefit of all of us. Am I to blame? Is my harsh rhetoric to blame?

I don't think that he should be killed, but my first thought was that I hope that son of a bitch gets a taste on of these days. I at least wish the media could ignore him so I never had to read about him. His act is so tired. He hurts people. Maybe we should frame him on charges for something and throw him in jail for 4 or 5 years. We could spend a little time in purgatory for that but I think it would be worth it.

[DC Muskie]

Snipe is merely pointing out that it goes both ways.

And that's not the point.

The point is not to say, "Well look both sides act like idiots."

We know that.

The point is six people are dead and one woman who represented her constituents is fighting for her life.

And one or two men are responsible.

[Snipe]

DC, I didn't start the discussion. I did not politicize the discussion, it was already politicized. I didn't hijack the tread or turn it in a new direction. I did not rush to the board to talk about it. I did pray for those involved.

Given the other posts on this thread, I do not think my post was out of line in anyway. I thought that I contributed to the flow of conversation and gave my opinion. Sorry to get your panties in a bunch.

I think you are over reacting and you could use a chill pill.

[DC Muskie]

Snipe , what can I say...you live in your own reality.

You brought up something that had absolutely nothing to do with the current situation. You had to make sure your eternal bogey man the left, would be hypocrites, if someone made a movie about killing Obama.

I'm not sure what that has to do with yesterday's event. But you contributed. In your mind.

[Snipe]

Maybe you didn't read the thread then.

Peace.

[Titanxman04]

Maybe you didn't read the thread then.

Peace.

Did he foul out?

[DC Muskie]

Okay Snipe, if that's your position. I'll be sure to read more posts from you about what bad things the Democratic Party is doing. Or did. And how none it matters to the current situation.

Just remember the reality is one of their members in laying in a hospital bed.

[ConfusedBulldog]

Just remember the reality is one of their members in laying in a hospital bed.

And a judge appointed by Bush is dead.

Political affiliation doesn't matter regardless of if the shooter was a member of the GOP, DEM or Green et al parties. The people who were killed died because of an "unstable" young man, not because of their political ideologies.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter who said what and what rhetoric was used. Shift the focus back to the shooter and victims and away from the pointless politics of it all.

[Snipe]

People use violent rhetoric in sports and politics all the time.

We just played the "Crosstown Shootout" for heavens sake. It is all over football and hoops and other sports. How many times is a game "gonna be a war"?

Happens in politics too. Reporters covering politics use it to describe campaigns. Politicians use it during their campaigns. Our government uses it to describe it's own policies. We have a "War on drugs" or a "War on poverty". People accuse the other side of a "Class war", a "war against the middle class", or the poor or even the rich. Everybody is at war. The war on cancer. The war on Christmas. The bloodletting will never end!


Other uses of the phrasing

* The War on Crime, the campaign in the 1930's by J. Edgar Hoover's Federal Bureau of Investigation against gangsters.
* War on Want is an anti-poverty charity based in Great Britain.
* The War on Terra, a pun off the name War on Terror, is a term popularized by The Daily Show to describe environmentally destructive policies of the United States.
* The concept is parodied in the Australian comedy series The Chaser's War on Everything.
* Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism is a documentary film critical of Fox News Channel.
* The Republican War on Science is a book which argues that the Republican Party is playing politics with science.
* The War on Britain's Jews? is a documentary film about antisemitism.
* The War on Democracy is a documentary film critical of U.S. policies in Latin America.
* War on War is a 2002 single by the American band Wilco from their album Yankee Hotel Foxtrot.
* War on Liquids refers to the ban and limitations on liquids and gels on commercial airline flights by the United States Transportation Security Administration.
* The War On The War On Drugs is a 2002 anti-propaganda documentary that uses satire and the propagandist style to poke fun at certain absurdities in old anti-drug films.


I said, war, huh
Good God, y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again


Who ever said "Make Love, Not War"? It appears what we love to do is make more war!

And we have "war criminals" too...

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/hangbushringo.jpg

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/bushdeadoralive.jpg

[DC Muskie]

And a judge appointed by Bush is dead.

Political affiliation doesn't matter regardless of if the shooter was a member of the GOP, DEM or Green et al parties. The people who were killed died because of an "unstable" young man, not because of their political ideologies.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter who said what and what rhetoric was used. Shift the focus back to the shooter and victims and away from the pointless politics of it all.

Confused Bulldog indeed.

I have not suggested this is a right or left thing.

But someone wants to continue to point out how the left is hypocritical, then I'm going to point out that in reality, one of the left is laying in a hospital bed.

[Snipe]

George Carlin on Baseball & Football:


Baseball is a nineteenth-century pastoral game.
Football is a twentieth-century technological struggle.

Baseball is played on a diamond, in a park.The baseball park!
Football is played on a gridiron, in a stadium, sometimes called Soldier Field or War Memorial Stadium.

Baseball begins in the spring, the season of new life.
Football begins in the fall, when everything's dying.

In football you wear a helmet.
In baseball you wear a cap.


Football is concerned with downs - what down is it?
Baseball is concerned with ups - who's up?

In football you receive a penalty.
In baseball you make an error.

In football the specialist comes in to kick.
In baseball the specialist comes in to relieve somebody.

Football has hitting, clipping, spearing, piling on, personal fouls, late hitting and unnecessary roughness.
Baseball has the sacrifice.


Football is played in any kind of weather: rain, snow, sleet, hail, fog...
In baseball, if it rains, we don't go out to play.

Baseball has the seventh inning stretch.
Football has the two minute warning.

Baseball has no time limit: we don't know when it's gonna end - might have extra innings.
Football is rigidly timed, and it will end even if we've got to go to sudden death.

In baseball, during the game, in the stands, there's kind of a picnic feeling; emotions may run high or low, but there's not too much unpleasantness.
In football, during the game in the stands, you can be sure that at least twenty-seven times you're capable of taking the life of a fellow human being.

And finally, the objectives of the two games are completely different:

In football the object is for the quarterback, also known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his receivers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! - I hope I'll be safe at home!

Somebody dig up George and tell him to stop the warmongering!

[DC Muskie]

I'm glad Snipe finds this funny.

[ConfusedBulldog]

But someone wants to continue to point out how the left is hypocritical, then I'm going to point out that in reality, one of the left is laying in a hospital bed.

Does her affiliation even matter? How about a human being, an American, a public servant, is fighting for her life?
Rhetoric on both sides has been acerbic. Truth is that many people erroneously made it a political issue when it was was not. Someone, apparently he-who-must-not-be-named, is countering what everyone else has posted (before he made his post.) Their point was made and so was his. Does it matter that someone keeps refudiating ... err repudiating him or anyone else? He's not really saying anything different from each post, so it's more like playing racquetball and not expecting the ball to come back each time you hit it.
Violent rhetoric is used on both sides , let's put it that way. People have called Bush and Obama a hitler figure or some regime leader. It's nothing new.

[Snipe]

Just remember the reality is one of their members in laying in a hospital bed.



But someone wants to continue to point out how the left is hypocritical, then I'm going to point out that in reality, one of the left is laying in a hospital bed.

A woman is laying in a hospital bed. She was a blue dog Democrat, which means she was a conservative democrat. And she was put there by a guy who lists among his favorite books "The Communist Manifesto" by Karl Marx. The first reaction is to blame Sarah Palin. That makes sense. Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and the Tea Party too.

Some of his high school classmates have gone on twitter saying that the shooter was a lefty. Maybe she was killed for her conservatism by the left. That would make more sense than blaming Sarah Palin. I think it is silly to blame anyone, but liberals jumped on this in an effort to blame the right. I can't see it any other way. And as Oklahoma City shows, you can make big political gains off of something like this.

I read an article that mentioned some of his favorite books. "Animial Farm", "The Communist Manifesto" and "Mein Kampf". Orwell was a socialist who joined a foriegn army to fight against fascism in Spain. Orwell was a socialist who hated both fascism and communism. Adolf Hitler was a National Socialist and a fascist. The Nazi party stood for National Socialism. He fought communists too. And Karl Marx isn't just a Marxist, he is the original article. He isn't just a communist, he invented the term.

Now I think Orwell is brilliant. I have read his stuff. Hitler was a ruthless socialist fascist. And Karl Marx never killed anyone that I know, but no man has killed more people through his ideology. If I could go back in history and kill one man, that man would be Karl Marx.

If I could bet money, I would bet our shooter is not a registered republican. I bet he was not a Sarah Palin fan, and that she didn't encourage this shooting from her oh so horrible rhetoric. If I had to venture a guess, those bullets came more from the left than from the right. The guy certainly has nothing to do with the Tea Party, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin or the Republican Party.

[Snipe]

Whether or not Palin's influence can be linked to this is anyone's guess that we can't know at the moment, or may never know. That said, she will be linked in the public mind regardless due to the cross-hairs website. It is very, very damaging to her reputation; especially if she intends to run for POTUS.

Isn't that the point of all the bluster, to use this woman's tragedy to score political points? They are just going by the play book.

[DC Muskie]

Does her affiliation even matter? How about a human being, an American, a public servant, is fighting for her life?
Rhetoric on both sides has been acerbic. Truth is that many people erroneously made it a political issue when it was was not. Someone, apparently he-who-must-not-be-named, is countering what everyone else has posted (before he made his post.) Their point was made and so was his. Does it matter that someone keeps refudiating ... err repudiating him or anyone else? He's not really saying anything different from each post, so it's more like playing racquetball and not expecting the ball to come back each time you hit it.
Violent rhetoric is used on both sides , let's put it that way. People have called Bush and Obama a hitler figure or some regime leader. It's nothing new.

Jesus Christ. I must be speaking fucking Chinese.



If I could bet money, I would bet our shooter is not a registered republican. I bet he was not a Sarah Palin fan, and that she didn't encourage this shooting from her oh so horrible rhetoric. If I had to venture a guess, those bullets came more from the left than from the right. The guy certainly has nothing to do with the Tea Party, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin or the Republican Party.


This is the shit I can't stand. Don't blame the right, but if I had to guess it came from the left. I'm sure Confused will be in complete agreement.

Seriously, guys have fun going off on all your ridiculous tangents.

[Firehose]

I'm not going to comment on what's been said before - I don't have the personal cachet or rapport with other members to have that level of back and forth.

That being said, this stuck with me. Really, it more than stuck with me; it haunts me:

"Pretty soon we're not going to be able to find reasonable, decent people who are willing to subject themselves to serve in public office."

By all accounts, Gabbi Giffords was trying. Entering into her third term as a Representative, she had established her positions and held herself as an admittedly left-leaning moderate with situational conservative beliefs. She is 41 years old - old enough to have political experience (She worked in both houses of Arizona's state legislature from 2001 to 2006 when she became a US Representative), but young enough to seem approachable to all of her constituents. It should go without saying that I don't know her motivations for going into politics, but I'm given to hope that when someone actually does go through the statehouse first, they are doing it for the right reason. Gabbi Giffords probably took campaign contributions from one organization or another, but since she never came up on anyone's radar for "suspicious contributions", I can honestly say that I had never heard of her before this incident.

I make the leap of faith from this information that Gabrielle Giffords was trying to be a citizen leader, working with and for the community that raised her.

This month, I turn 26 years old and when I left Xavier a few years ago, I left with political aspirations. Some of my friends and peers took more immediate steps, positioning themselves in the offices of Governors, Congressmen, and Senators, but for myself, I always liked the idea of being a statesman more than a power-broker. I'm a fan of money, but I always thought that if someone held office, they would make more money in the long run if they didn't sell out in their first term and actually did their damn job. It's an old-school idea for a new-school ethic.

I have friends on here who may argue in all directions about my qualification, but I used to believe that I could be one of those "reasonable, decent people willing to subject themselves to public office." I believed that I had the sort of personality that might be attractive to constituents and that I could run a reasonably successful campaign by stating my positions on issues and keeping mudslinging to the professionals in the press. I would like to think a lot of things about what could have happened, but they will not happen. Not anymore.

I could speculate and pontificate about what's wrong with our society - I think a lot of somethings are, in fact - but I won't. I'm young enough to want to change the world but old enough to have had that dream crushed out of me.

[GoMuskies]

I have friends on here who may argue in all directions about my qualification, but I used to believe that I could be one of those "reasonable, decent people willing to subject themselves to public office." I believed that I had the sort of personality that might be attractive to constituents and that I could run a reasonably successful campaign by stating my positions on issues and keeping mudslinging to the professionals in the press. I would like to think a lot of things about what could have happened, but they will not happen. Not anymore.

I could speculate and pontificate about what's wrong with our society - I think a lot of somethings are, in fact - but I won't. I'm young enough to want to change the world but old enough to have had that dream crushed out of me.

Hopefully not because of yesterday. People get senselessly shot by crazy people all the time. I hope you're not overreacting to one crazy person's actions.

[Snipe]

From the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09shooter.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all):


Another former high school classmate said that Mr. Loughner may have met Representative Giffords, who was shot in the head outside the Safeway supermarket, several years ago.

“As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy,” the former classmate, Caitie Parker, wrote in a series of Twitter feeds Saturday. “I haven’t seen him since ’07 though. He became very reclusive.”

“He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was ‘stupid & unintelligent,’ ” she wrote.

Maybe it wasn't Sarah Palin after all.

FAIL!

[Firehose]

Hopefully not because of yesterday. People get senselessly shot by crazy people all the time. I hope you're not overreacting to one crazy person's actions.

If I'm going to be shot by some nutjob, I would rather be a teacher than a politician. At least that way, most people wouldn't be trying to hold me up as a shining example of what happens if THEY win. I would rather that my family be left in relative peace as I coalesce or die, and I would rather be mourned as a human being than as a vote. I would rather that friends tell stories about what an asshole I could sometimes be than have my party leader describe me as "a model American".

[BBC 08]

From the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09shooter.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all):



Maybe it wasn't Sarah Palin after all.

FAIL!

You are absolutely right, Snipe. It is not Palin's fault Giffords was shot. It is her fault though that she is stupid enough to lead with rhetoric that people would call violent. She has told Republicans to 'Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!' She thought it was a good idea to have a map of the United States with crosshairs targeting Reps that didn't go with what she believed in.

What Palin should be blamed for is just being stupid thinking these words and images were a good thing.

[Snipe]

More on the blame game:

Politico (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47294_Page2.html)


One veteran Democratic operative, who blames overheated rhetoric for the shooting, said President Barack Obama should carefully but forcefully do what his predecessor did.

“They need to deftly pin this on the tea partiers,” said the Democrat. “Just like the Clinton White House deftly pinned the Oklahoma City bombing on the militia and anti-government people.”

Another Democratic strategist said the similarity is that Tucson and Oklahoma City both “take place in a climate of bitter and virulent rhetoric against the government and Democrats.”

Looks like they went right with the standard play book.

[Titanxman04]

If I'm going to be shot by some nutjob, I would rather be a teacher than a politician. At least that way, most people wouldn't be trying to hold me up as a shining example of what happens if THEY win. I would rather that my family be left in relative peace as I coalesce or die, and I would rather be mourned as a human being than as a vote. I would rather that friends tell stories about what an asshole I could sometimes be than have my party leader describe me as "a model American".

Sometimes? First off, friend... I tell people NOW that you're an asshole. Second, I think the word "sometimes" is being generous. But hey, its why we love you.

[Snipe]

You are absolutely right, Snipe. It is not Palin's fault Giffords was shot. It is her fault though that she is stupid enough to lead with rhetoric that people would call violent. She has told Republicans to 'Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!' She thought it was a good idea to have a map of the United States with crosshairs targeting Reps that didn't go with what she believed in.

What Palin should be blamed for is just being stupid thinking these words and images were a good thing.

Images like this from a lefty site targeting her?

http://patterico.com/files/2011/01/Markos-2-600x452.jpg

Or images like this from the DLC?

http://www.verumserum.com/media/2010/03/DLC-Targeting-map.gif

Or how about this from the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee: link (http://www.verumserum.com/?p=13647)

http://www.verumserum.com/media/2010/03/DCCC-target-map.jpg



Vicious Lies and Contemptible Politics

A salient argument that I would advance to you BBC, it was made by Glenn Reynolds (http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/112816/):


Let me be clear, as a great man says: If you’re using this event to criticize the “rhetoric” of Sarah Palin or others with whom you disagree, then you’re either asserting a connection between the “rhetoric” and the shooting — which based on evidence to date would be what we call a vicious lie — or you’re not, in which case you’re just seizing on a tragedy to try to score unrelated political points, which is contemptible. So which is it?

So why push Palin for this? Vicious lie or contemptible politics? Take your pick.

Either way the argument is lame.

In related news, here (http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/06/14/obama-if-they-bring-a-knife-to-the-fight-we-bring-a-gun/)is an old quote from the winner of the Nobel Prize for Peace (brilliant thread) (http://www.xavierhoops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11714&highlight=obama+prize):


“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” ~ Barack Obama

Talk about the audacity of hope!

That is change we can believe in. Bring the Gun Barack! BE THE CHANGE!

[waggy]

Sorry for this lady, the other victims, and their families.

[GuyFawkes38]

"Pretty soon we're not going to be able to find reasonable, decent people who are willing to subject themselves to serve in public office."

The sheriff in Tucson said that. He's an elected official and apparently wanted to score some political points. But I think it's a little tacky. His number one job at a press conference should be keeping the public aware of the facts.

But that being said, I think he's wrong and your wrong for being so intimated by this isolated action. The last congressman to be assassinated was Leo Ryan by Jim Jones and his insane cult in South America. That was back in 1979.

It's an awesome job that good and brilliant people will always want.

I have to say, I love the intensity of political rhetoric in the US. We all know we are protected by the 1st amendment and are willing to say what's on our minds.

If you are a male in your late teens or early 20's and your lonely and mentally disturbed, bad things happen. Intense political rhetoric didn't set him off. The same forces that set off the Va tech killer set off this guy.

[DC Muskie]

Sorry for this lady, the other victims, and their families.

Very nice article about the 9 year old who died.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/09/AR2011010902186.html?hpid=topnews

It seemed she had a great sense of duty. And how it began on the day of her birth on 9/11.

I hope we can learn more about the victims. Maybe Snipe can look up stuff about who else died rather the incessant ramblings about how horrible the Democratic Party is. Because it is getting pretty pathetic.

Or maybe Guy can chime in on how tacky the sheriff is.

[Strange Brew]

Very nice article about the 9 year old who died.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/09/AR2011010902186.html?hpid=topnews

It seemed she had a great sense of duty. And how it began on the day of her birth on 9/11.

I hope we can learn more about the victims. Maybe Snipe can look up stuff about who else died rather the incessant ramblings about how horrible the Democratic Party is. Because it is getting pretty pathetic.

Or maybe Guy can chime in on how tacky the sheriff is.

DC, in all fairness. I think that Snipe repsonded to others baselessly mentioning Palin in this thread.

I agree with you though, it would be nice to hear more about the victims than the political ramblimgs of the monster.

[smileyy]

I hope that this doesn't put a stupid security-state bubble around Representatives, politicians who really do need to have access to and be accessed by their constituents. We need less of a bubble in Washington and around the nation, not more of one.

[waggy]

I hope that this doesn't put a stupid security-state bubble around Representatives, politicians who really do need to have access to and be accessed by their constituents. We need less of a bubble in Washington and around the nation, not more of one.

Good post. Besides, we need to be able to shoot them when warranted.

[DC Muskie]

DC, in all fairness. I think that Snipe repsonded to others baselessly mentioning Palin in this thread.

In fairness, it seems he is railing against the wind.

If you keep mentioning a political party, you can't forget which party the victim is a member.

He says we shouldn't be blaming the right, but of course he has NO PROBLEM blaming the left.

But I understand, you and him can't have a discussion unless we all know that the Democratic party is pretty bad.

So whatever. Mention Palin, mention 1995, mention Clinton. People are dead. This nine year old was able to figure out what it meant to be called to serve.

Here? We are called to make sure we are still partisan, while telling people we shouldn't be.

[smileyy]

Part of the fallout of this sort of event is that it lets you know who to ignore in the aftermath.

[waggy]

Here? We are called to make sure we are still partisan, while telling people we shouldn't be.

This is not meant to be acerbic, but from my point of view you come across as partisan.

[Strange Brew]

In fairness, it seems he is railing against the wind.

If you keep mentioning a political party, you can't forget which party the victim is a member.

He says we shouldn't be blaming the right, but of course he has NO PROBLEM blaming the left.

But I understand, you and him can't have a discussion unless we all know that the Democratic party is pretty bad.

So whatever. Mention Palin, mention 1995, mention Clinton. People are dead. This nine year old was able to figure out what it meant to be called to serve.

Here? We are called to make sure we are still partisan, while telling people we shouldn't be.

DC, I never mentioned '95, Clinton or Palin. I stated what I thought that Snipe was responding to in this thread.

BTW, using your rhetoric. What party the was the murdered Federal Judge who was appointed by H.W. Bush?

The point is DC blaming this on the rhetoric of a particular party is petty and stupid. That said however, the Left has been dying to pin this on the Tea Party since the story broke. That is baseless and incorrect as is trying to pin this on the Left. I would assume that you would agree that those on MSNBC, CNN and in the NYT should issue a public apology for their horrendously reckless and uniformed statements that the shooter was a Right Winger?

[DC Muskie]

This is not meant to be acerbic, but from my point of view you come across as partisan.

How? I never blamed this on anything on the right. Not once. Am I partisan because I think I don'[t agree with the fact that Snipe is posting about what a former schoolmate said about the shooter may have met the Congresswoman and thought he had left minded thoughts? Is that the definition of partisan-ism now?


DC, I never mentioned '95, Clinton or Palin. I stated what I thought that Snipe was responding to in this thread.

BTW, using your rhetoric. What party was the murdered Federal Judge who was appointed by H.W. Bush?

The point is DC blaming this on the rhetoric of a particular party is petty and stupid. That said however, the Left has been dying to pin this on the Tea Party since the story broke. That is baseless and incorrect as is trying to pin this on the Left. I would assume that you would agree that those on MSNBC, CNN and in the NYT should issue a public apology for their horrendously reckless and uniformed statements that the shooter was a Right Winger?

Snipe doesn't need you to defend him Brew.

You want to come to his defense, simply because you agree with his politics. You completely ignore the fact I said nothing about the right being responsible for this.

But go ahead and list your left leaning national news services. I have no idea what this idiot was thinking when he pulled the trigger. But you are the second person who feels the need to bring up the federal judge. That's what I'm talking about. Who gives a shit? You have no idea what this murderer was thinking. Neither does his high school classmates.

But Snipe needs to point out that the left is awful. Great fantastic. And you come in to assume that I think what MSNBC thinks.

And someone I'm the one who is partisan.

I need a break from this thread. Because whatever it is I write, you guys will assume what you want. And you wonder why this country has problems.

[waggy]

How? I never blamed this on anything on the right. Not once. Am I partisan because I think I don'[t agree with the fact that Snipe is posting about what a former schoolmate said about the shooter may have met the Congresswoman and thought he had left minded thoughts? Is that the definition of partisan-ism now?

A single thread wouldn't necessarily reveal ones partisanship. It's your body of work. I don't think you have any room calling out the board for promoting partisanship. I've stated on numerous occassions that all of DC bends us over - the only difference being which constituency the cash gets funneled to.

[DC Muskie]

A single thread wouldn't necessarily reveal ones partisanship. It's your body of work. I don't think you have any room calling out the board for promoting partisanship. I've stated on numerous occassions that all of DC bends us over - the only difference being which constituency the cash gets funneled to.

Oh I see, I'm partisan no matter what.

At least I know the rules now.

Sorry, wags, that response is just sad.

Here's some more information on the victims. I hope me reminding everyone about the victims isn't too partisan.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/blog-post/2011/01/arizona_shooting_victims_the_f.html?hpid=artslot

[PM Thor]

The way that this tragic event has been turned into yet another political fight sickens me, both sides should be ashamed.

And yet, I am not in the least surprised. It is quite telling of where we are as a country politically.

I'm praying for a speedy recovery for all those hurt by this lunatic (who hides behind supposed political views) and I will pray for the souls of those lost at his hands. It's a sad, sad day.

I HATE dayton.

[waggy]

Oh I see, I'm partisan no matter what.

No, you're partisan if you are. Ie, pot meet kettle.

[Snipe]

The way that this tragic event has been turned into yet another political fight sickens me, both sides should be ashamed.



Why should both sides be ashamed? Which side made it into a political fight? Please.

Why should I be ashamed that the left tries to use something like this to advance itself politically?

Should I be ashamed for pointing out the shameful behavior of the left?

[PM Thor]

Why should both sides be ashamed? Which side made it into a political fight? Please.

Why should I be ashamed that the left tries to use something like this to advance itself politically?

Should I be ashamed for pointing out the shameful behavior of the left?

You state exactly why you should be ashamed. Ignore the side that politicizes it, but you just can't. Learn to rise above. Both sides made it a political fight, and if you can't see that, I don't know how to respond to you.

It's being dragged into the gutter by people who want to fight over politics, when this isn't a political issue. Blame any leftie you want Snipe, but some people on the right are just at fault for engaging the rhetoric. If you truly believe it's shameful behavior, it shouldn't be acknowledged with a response.

It's sickening, the "he said, she said" bullshit. And yeah, it's bullshit. Typical politics, and it seems most politicos overlook the tragedy simply to forward their own belief.

I mean, take this for example, a leftie says that this tragedy says there should be more gun laws. A rightie says that the liberal media blames the tea party for this tragedy.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

I HATE dayton.

[smileyy]

I'm not taking the "rise above" lesson from this. I'm taking the "shoot people who disagree with me in the face" lesson. You have been warned.

</bad-taste>

[GuyFawkes38]

You state exactly why you should be ashamed. Ignore the side that politicizes it, but you just can't. Learn to rise above. Both sides made it a political fight, and if you can't see that, I don't know how to respond to you.

It's being dragged into the gutter by people who want to fight over politics, when this isn't a political issue. Blame any leftie you want Snipe, but some people on the right are just at fault for engaging the rhetoric. If you truly believe it's shameful behavior, it shouldn't be acknowledged with a response.

It's sickening, the "he said, she said" bullshit. And yeah, it's bullshit. Typical politics, and it seems most politicos overlook the tragedy simply to forward their own belief.

I mean, take this for example, a leftie says that this tragedy says there should be more gun laws. A rightie says that the liberal media blames the tea party for this tragedy.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

I HATE dayton.

I like the intention of this post. Lets all rise above this sad action.

But ultimately, thor, parts of your post strike me as a little naive. When a politician is shot and almost killed, is politics really not involved? Would this thread be here if five random people were killed in Tucson.

I think it's completely natural for the left to see this instinctively as a political act. And it's completely natural for the right to object.

Politics is part of the picture. That's just a reality when a politician is almost assassinated.

[DC Muskie]

No, you're partisan if you are. Ie, pot meet kettle.

Perfect, I'm glad we can just keep the status quo.

Is this where I should blame the right? I would hate to missing out on some meaningless mudslinging. Because if I read it correctly, the left is the one that is wrong.

[Juice]

I like the intention of this post. Lets all rise above this sad action.

But ultimately, thor, parts of your post strike me as a little naive. When a politician is shot and almost killed, is politics really not involved? Would this thread be here if five random people were killed in Tucson.

I think it's completely natural for the left to see this instinctively as a political act. And it's completely natural for the right to object.

Politics is part of the picture. That's just a reality when a politician is almost assassinated.

This makes sense because the shooter's motivation probably came from his political. I am not saying its the left's or right's fault because there are whackos on both sides. But when the shooter's political views most likely motivated him to do this, politics will play a part.

[XU 87]

A former classmate of the shooter refers to him as a "left wing pothead." That said, I hope no one one the right blames the Democratic party or the left wing for this shooting.

[chico]

A former classmate of the shooter refers to him as a "left wing pothead." That said, I hope no one one the right blames the Democratic party or the left wing for this shooting.

Yep. There are crazies on the left and right. This guy, though, was just crazy outside of any political leaning. It's only political because the intended victim was a politician. This guy, from all appearances, had not agenda that you could classify as pertaining to any political party. He is plain and simple a very disturbed individual.

[ConfusedBulldog]

Yep. There are crazies on the left and right. This guy, though, was just crazy outside of any political leaning. It's only political because the intended victim was a politician. This guy, from all appearances, had not agenda that you could classify as pertaining to any political party. He is plain and simple a very disturbed individual.

Completely agree with this post

[Snipe]

Why should both sides be ashamed? Which side made it into a political fight? Please.

Why should I be ashamed that the left tries to use something like this to advance itself politically?

Should I be ashamed for pointing out the shameful behavior of the left?


You state exactly why you should be ashamed. Ignore the side that politicizes it, but you just can't. Learn to rise above. Both sides made it a political fight, and if you can't see that, I don't know how to respond to you.

It's being dragged into the gutter by people who want to fight over politics, when this isn't a political issue. Blame any leftie you want Snipe, but some people on the right are just at fault for engaging the rhetoric. If you truly believe it's shameful behavior, it shouldn't be acknowledged with a response.

It's sickening, the "he said, she said" bullshit. And yeah, it's bullshit. Typical politics, and it seems most politicos overlook the tragedy simply to forward their own belief.

I mean, take this for example, a leftie says that this tragedy says there should be more gun laws. A rightie says that the liberal media blames the tea party for this tragedy.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

I HATE dayton.

Those are the actual quotes, here is the shorter version:




Should I be ashamed for pointing out the shameful behavior of the left?

Your answer is an emphatic "YES":


You state exactly why you should be ashamed. Ignore the side that politicizes it, but you just can't. Learn to rise above...

...some people on the right are just at fault for engaging the rhetoric. If you truly believe it's shameful behavior, it shouldn't be acknowledged with a response.

I mean, take this for example, a leftie says that this tragedy says there should be more gun laws. A rightie says that the liberal media blames the tea party for this tragedy.


The Tea Party was implicated by a lot of media. Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and the Tea Party were the usual suspects rounded up right after this woman was shot.

I go to Tea Party events. I consider myself a Tea Party patriot. The Tea Party had nothing to do with this. That is just malicious slander for political gain. Pointing that out or defending my reputation with the TP now makes me just as bad as the people using malicious slander for political gain? I reject that Thor. Someone here is to blame, and it isn't me. I did not make this a political issue.

Thor, you don't like Sarah Palin. It is no secret. You are not alone. Many people don't like Sarah Palin. That is fair enough as we all don't like plenty of people collectively.

Right after this woman got shot people started blaming Sarah Palin. What are your feelings about that Thor? I think the numbers were 19 shot with 6 dead so far, including a conservative Democratic Congresswoman, a Republican Judge and an adorable little 9 year old girl. And Sarah Palin is to blame? That is reprehensible political rhetoric, and it was coming from the left. Pointing that out does not make me equal to them.

Let's say someone came on this forum and stated that you had sexual relations with your own mother. If you defended yourself and the honor of your mother, would that be descending to his level? I don't think so. I think sometimes it is easy to spot who the real motherfucker is, and blaming both parties for something that the left went out and did is a ball of crap. This is coming from your side. They are slandering Sarah Palin and using these deaths for political gain and you can't bring yourself to even denounce it. And for pointing it out you included me with the same people that would use a tragedy like this for political gain.

I object to that. I am a Tea Party Patriot loud and proud. Tea Party backed candidates did well in the recent elections We aren't shooting anyone. We are winning. We have influence. Of all the social currents in the last year ended I would think the Tea Party movement was the most significant. We should have been Time's "Man of the Year" in my opinion. I went to Washington and I think we had half a million people or more. People that oppose the movement obviously don't like us. They call us racist and ever other name. Now some of them try to pin this mass murder on us for political gain. And your take is that if I respond I am just as guilty as they are. That is crap.

Sometimes there is actual right and wrong. It isn't always gray. What the left did to politicize this mass murder is wrong. For pointing that out it doesn't make me just as guilty. That is just silly.

[Snipe]

Yep. There are crazies on the left and right. This guy, though, was just crazy outside of any political leaning. It's only political because the intended victim was a politician. This guy, from all appearances, had not agenda that you could classify as pertaining to any political party. He is plain and simple a very disturbed individual.

So shouldn't we condemn people that try to use this act for political gain? Pointing that out isn't the same as trying to use it for political gain. Sarah Palin got blamed for this within an hour of the shots fired.

That is reprehensible behavior. Pointing it out certainly is not. He is plain and simple a very disturbed individual. Who used him and the bodies in the morgue and intensive care for political gain?

[chico]

So shouldn't we condemn people that try to use this act for political gain? Pointing that out isn't the same as trying to use it for political gain. Sarah Palin got blamed for this within an hour of the shots fired.

That is reprehensible behavior. Pointing it out certainly is not. He is plain and simple a very disturbed individual. Who used him and the bodies in the morgue and intensive care for political gain?

I think it's sick that anyone would try to use this tragedy for political gain.

And I think it's pretty obvious that Sarah Palin is a lightning rod and an easy target - as well as a political opportunist. But that's how she wants it, so if she puts herself out there like that you have to know you're going to get hammered by your opposition, rightly or wrongly, at every opportunity.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

So shouldn't we condemn people that try to use this act for political gain? Pointing that out isn't the same as trying to use it for political gain. Sarah Palin got blamed for this within an hour of the shots fired.

That is reprehensible behavior. Pointing it out certainly is not. He is plain and simple a very disturbed individual. Who used him and the bodies in the morgue and intensive care for political gain?

Sarah Palin is not responsible. Most people realize that. But even she realizes her use of crosshair maps and rhetoric is not appropriate, otherwise she wouldn't have had her staff erase hours worth of posts and maps from her facebook site.

Sarah Palin got blamed immediately because of her own stupidity. Putting out a map that features gun sights on districts while saying "Don't retreat, reload" is just stupid. It has nothing to do with this shooting but it is incredibly stupid.

[Snipe]

I think it's sick that anyone would try to use this tragedy for political gain.

And I think it's pretty obvious that Sarah Palin is a lightning rod and an easy target - as well as a political opportunist. But that's how she wants it, so if she puts herself out there like that you have to know you're going to get hammered by your opposition, rightly or wrongly, at every opportunity.

Sarah Palin was implicated in the death of 6 in a mass killing in Arizona. This has happened. Do you think that Sarah Palin deserved this? Do you think that because she voices her opinion she deserves this? If she wasn't a candidate or a public figure she would never have gotten anything. By being alive and making her views known to all she seems to be judged guilty.


I think it's sick that anyone would try to use this tragedy for political gain.


What party used this tragedy for political gain? Let's just open up an say it. Let's be honest about it. Republicans didn't jump on this tragedy for political gain. Democrats did.

Am I wrong? Seriously, am I wrong?

Will anyone from the other side come forward to denounce this strategy? That is the real test. It is reprehensible.

[Porkopolis]

Sarah Palin was implicate in the death of 6 in a mass killing in Arizona. This has happened. Do you think that Sarah Palin deserved this? Do you think that because she voices her opinion she deserves this? If she wasn't a candidate or a public figure she would never have gotten anything. By being alive and making her views known to all she seems to be judged guilty.



What party used this tragedy for political gain? Let's just open up an say it. Let's be honest about it. Republicans didn't jump on this tragedy for political gain. Democrats did.

Am I wrong? Seriously, am I wrong?

Will anyone from the other side come forward to denounce this strategy? That is the real test. It is reprehensible.

Living in Republicanville (aka Cincinnati) I have talked to plenty on the right who are politicizing the matter. The left is doing the same thing and it is disgusting, but not unexpected. "Both" sides are at fault which is why I long ago bolted for the world of third party politics.

[Snipe]

Sarah Palin is not responsible. Most people realize that. But even she realizes her use of crosshair maps and rhetoric is not appropriate, otherwise she wouldn't have had her staff erase hours worth of posts and maps from her facebook site.

Sarah Palin got blamed immediately because of her own stupidity. Putting out a map that features gun sights on districts while saying "Don't retreat, reload" is just stupid. It has nothing to do with this shooting but it is incredibly stupid.

Sarah Palin had nothing to do with this. Pelosi is stupid in my opinion. I haven't blamed it on her. Obama is an idiot that thinks we have 57 states. He really said that. What a moron. I didn't blame him just because he is an idiot. So you think Sarah is stupid. That doesn't make her a killer. She shouldn't be involved in this conversation.

Do you realize the consequences of having your name involved in this conversation? I think the left does, and it is why they advance the argument that Sarah Palin was to blame in this killing. This is not the time to call out Sarah Palin. That is beyond the pale.

The left used this argument to target Sarah Palin. She had nothing to do with this. A guy killed a conservative democrat and a conservative judge and a 9 year old girl among others, and this is the blame of Sarah Palin? This isn't her fault. She may or may not be an idiot, but that isn't the point. Bringing her up and laying the blame upon her is the point. The vitriol given to Sarah Palin is incredible. This is a national tragedy, and thank God we can blame Sarah Palin. And if we don't blame her, we can at least concede she is an idiot. That is how they make points out of this. It is reprehensible and I don't mind pointing it out.

Look at every comment against Sarah Palin in this thread. This should not be about Sarah Palin. It really is that simple. It is unfair. It is wrong on a moral level.

[nuts4xu]

A former classmate of the shooter refers to him as a "left wing pothead." That said, I hope no one one the right blames the Democratic party or the left wing for this shooting.

I hope no one blames the weed....

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Sarah Palin had nothing to do with this. Pelosi is stupid in my opinion. I haven't blamed it on her. Obama is an idiot that thinks we have 57 states. He really said that. What a moron. I didn't blame him just because he is an idiot. So you think Sarah is stupid. That doesn't make her a killer. She shouldn't be involved in this conversation.

Do you realize the consequences of having your name involved in this conversation? I think the left does, and it is why they advance the argument that Sarah Palin was to blame in this killing. This is not the time to call out Sarah Palin. That is beyond the pale.

The left used this argument to target Sarah Palin. She had nothing to do with this. A guy killed a conservative democrat and a conservative judge and a 9 year old girl among others, and this is the blame of Sarah Palin? This isn't her fault. She may or may not be an idiot, but that isn't the point. Bringing her up and laying the blame upon her is the point. The vitriol given to Sarah Palin is incredible. This is a national tragedy, and thank God we can blame Sarah Palin. And if we don't blame her, we can at least concede she is an idiot. That is how they make points out of this. It is reprehensible and I don't mind pointing it out.

Look at every comment against Sarah Palin in this thread. This should not be about Sarah Palin. It really is that simple. It is unfair. It is wrong on a moral level.

Sarah Palin is being unfairly blamed because she put out a target shooting list with Giffords name on there. She came out with the map, she came out with the rhetoric, and she defended her rhetoric despite republicans and democrats ripping on her for it. Then an unrelated shooting takes place of someone coincidentally on her hit list. She is being blamed by people with knee jerk reactions. She is obviously not responsible for this act. Now she is complaining about the interpretation of HER rhetoric after a tragedy. She has no one to blame but herself for putting this rubbish out there in the first place. Had she just campaigned for other politicians like a normal human being, her name would not be mentioned(albeit incorrectly and unfairly) in the same breath as this killer

[chico]

Obviously Sarah Palin had nothing to do with this but to think that people weren't going to use this to criticize her because of her brilliant crosshairs poster you're being naive. I think it's in very poor taste but I also think the same of Sarah Palin.

She's like a monkey throwing feces so is it so difficult to understand when some other monkeys decide to throw some feces back?

[DC Muskie]

Why is it ever acceptable to use language in the political area where you have to clarify that you are not promoting violence?

[Snipe]

Sarah Palin is being unfairly blamed because she put out a target shooting list with Giffords name on there. She came out with the map, she came out with the rhetoric, and she defended her rhetoric despite republicans and democrats ripping on her for it. Then an unrelated shooting takes place of someone coincidentally on her hit list. She is being blamed by people with knee jerk reactions. She is obviously not responsible for this act. Now she is complaining about the interpretation of HER rhetoric after a tragedy. She has no one to blame but herself for putting this rubbish out there in the first place. Had she just campaigned for other politicians like a normal human being, her name would not be mentioned(albeit incorrectly and unfairly) in the same breath as this killer

Let me repeat, Sarah Palin isn't involved in this. You continue to tie her to this mass killing tangentially at least.

She should not be in this conversation, and you make the conversation about her.

Let me give you two different cases:

1) You use her selected words and associations to tie it to this mass killing. In doing so you act like she had a part in this. All evidence suggests that this is wrong and a lie.

2) you use her selected words and associations to make her look bad in light of this mass killing, fully knowing that she had nothing to do with it. You are using this tragedy to smear Sarah Palin politically.

So which is it?

So you don't like her. Good for you. I don't like Paul Krugman. I didn't tie his hateful rhetoric to this mass murder. If I did, I would expect you to call me out, and I would expect common sense conservatives to agree with you. Even though they I don't admire Paul Krugman, I would speak out against people blaming this on his politics. Responsible people are supposed to act responsibly.

[GoMuskies]

Why is it ever acceptable to use language in the political area where you have to clarify that you are not promoting violence?

Agreed, I remember during the health care debate there was this guy that said something like, "If they're bringing knives, then we need to bring a gun." THAT guy has a problem.

[DC Muskie]

Let's say someone came on this forum and stated that you had sexual relations with your own mother. If you defended yourself and the honor of your mother, would that be descending to his level? I don't think so. I think sometimes it is easy to spot who the real motherfucker is, and blaming both parties for something that the left went out and did is a ball of crap.

Who takes this guy seriously on this board whit shit like this?

[DC Muskie]

Agreed, I remember during the health care debate there was this guy that said something like, "If they're bringing knives, then we need to bring a gun." THAT guy has a problem.

God damn it, why in the world when I make one statement, someone has to mention that the president said something wrong as well?

I get it guys. No one needs to point out how bad politicians are to me. I live it out here every day.

And by the way, if you are going to make a point counter-point argument from some general statement, at least get your God damn facts straight.

It's wasn't during the health care debate. It was during the 2008 presidential election.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Let me repeat, Sarah Palin isn't involved in this. You continue to tie her to this mass killing tangentially at least.

She should not be in this conversation, and you make the conversation about her.

Let me give you two different cases:

1) You use her selected words and associations to tie it to this mass killing. In doing so you act like she had a part in this. All evidence suggests that this is wrong and a lie.

2) you use her selected words and associations to make her look bad in light of this mass killing, fully knowing that she had nothing to do with it. You are using this tragedy to smear Sarah Palin politically.

So which is it?

So you don't like her. Good for you. I don't like Paul Krugman. I didn't tie his hateful rhetoric to this mass murder. If I did, I would expect you to call me out, and I would expect common sense conservatives to agree with you. Even though they I don't admire Paul Krugman, I would speak out against people blaming this on his politics. Responsible people are supposed to act responsibly.

I said she is not to blame for this attack. I know you've read that. The blame quote you put in bold is in reference to the interpretation of her map and her words, not of the actual act of her being involved in the shooting or the killer.

I said she is solely to blame for people interpreting(unfairly) her statements incorrectly. She came out with the rhetoric to be interpreted incorrectly. I take it you disagree. It's as simple as that. When you have gun sights on people in certain districts and one of the "targets" gets shot, you are going to get some heat. It doesn't matter who you are. In this case, the shooter had nothing to do with Palin or the map. Does that still make her target list map and rhetoric ok? She obviously doesn't think so since she has removed all posts and maps and quotes about the subject from her facebook page.

I have never once tied her into the guilt along with this mass murderer. I've even defended her in that category. But surely you can see that her own actions and rhetoric is the sole reason she's even being mentioned in the same category as this monster(unfairly).

[GoMuskies]

Sorry. It must be me whose ass you want to kick next.

[Snipe]

Obviously Sarah Palin had nothing to do with this but to think that people weren't going to use this to criticize her because of her brilliant crosshairs poster you're being naive. I think it's in very poor taste but I also think the same of Sarah Palin.

She's like a monkey throwing feces so is it so difficult to understand when some other monkeys decide to throw some feces back?

A monkey throwing feces is an interesting touch. Is Barack Obama is a monkey throwing feces too? Would anyone make that point in light of this shooting? What about his harmful political rhetoric, like bringing a gun when they bring a knife? If Barack a monkey throwing feces when he threatens violence or proclaims we have 57 states?

I don't think Palin should be involved in this conversation. They only reason she is involved is because of the left. People on the left have "targeted" republicans, and some even put the bulls-eye on her as I pointed out earlier.

Democrats should be held to task for blaming this human tragedy on the right.

[DC Muskie]

Let me repeat, Sarah Palin isn't involved in this. You continue to tie her to this mass killing tangentially at least.

She should not be in this conversation, and you make the conversation about her.

Let me give you two different cases:

1) You use her selected words and associations to tie it to this mass killing. In doing so you act like she had a part in this. All evidence suggests that this is wrong and a lie.

2) you use her selected words and associations to make her look bad in light of this mass killing, fully knowing that she had nothing to do with it. You are using this tragedy to smear Sarah Palin politically.

So which is it?

So you don't like her. Good for you. I don't like Paul Krugman. I didn't tie his hateful rhetoric to this mass murder. If I did, I would expect you to call me out, and I would expect common sense conservatives to agree with you. Even though they I don't admire Paul Krugman, I would speak out against people blaming this on his politics. Responsible people are supposed to act responsibly.

So not related to the current situation...are you suggesting she's not responsible for anything she says? Ever?

You're fine with the way she rallies you and other Teabaggers? With words like "salvo" and "take up arms" and "reload?"

Is that the only way to motive you loud and proud patriots? "Don't Tread on Me" and the like?

[GoMuskies]

If I'm ever mugged, Obama has to take the blame for inciting others to kick ass.

[bobbiemcgee]

Sarah Palin is being unfairly blamed because she put out a target shooting list with Giffords name on there. She came out with the map, she came out with the rhetoric, and she defended her rhetoric despite republicans and democrats ripping on her for it. Then an unrelated shooting takes place of someone coincidentally on her hit list. She is being blamed by people with knee jerk reactions. She is obviously not responsible for this act. Now she is complaining about the interpretation of HER rhetoric after a tragedy. She has no one to blame but herself for putting this rubbish out there in the first place. Had she just campaigned for other politicians like a normal human being, her name would not be mentioned(albeit incorrectly and unfairly) in the same breath as this killer

The map was in poor taste initially. Very poor taste after this tragedy. That's why they TOOK IT DOWN. If they still didn't feel it was offensive, they would have left it up. Gun talk and politics didn't seem to work in this case.

[chico]

A monkey throwing feces is an interesting touch. Is Barack Obama is a monkey throwing feces too? Would anyone make that point in light of this shooting? What about his harmful political rhetoric, like bringing a gun when they bring a knife? If Barack a monkey throwing feces when he threatens violence or proclaims we have 57 states?

I don't think Palin should be involved in this conversation. They only reason she is involved is because of the left. People on the left have "targeted" republicans, and some even put the bulls-eye on her as I pointed out earlier.

Democrats should be held to task for blaming this human tragedy on the right.

Now you're just making broad over-generalizations. To the best of my knowledge Obama has not tied the shootings and Palin. It seems to be the usual suspects - Olberman and his crew. Slam those who are tying her, but not the entire party. Just as you cannot slam Republicans for Palin's (who is hardly a sympathetic figure anyway so that's why I don't see people rushing to her aid) poor taste in propaganda. Otherwise I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Snipe]

The map was in poor taste initially. Very poor taste after this tragedy. That's why they TOOK IT DOWN. If they still didn't feel it was offensive, they would have left it up. Gun talk and politics didn't seem to work in this case.

What about Barack Obama's gun talk? Bring a gun when they bring a knife? He said that. Does that matter at all? Why would that be applicable? None of it was applicable to this mass killing. The point in which she is brought up is reprehensible. Either she is part of this murder, which she is not and that would be a lie, or either someone else is using this tragedy for political gain.

It is reprehensible and yet no liberal seems to want to single out the people that are doing it.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I understand what Snipe is saying and agree with him to an extent. In all actuality, what Snipe is saying makes a lot of sense. I think we all condemn the specific democrats in this case trying to pin this killer on Palin to score political points before the facts are out.

The area I disagree with Snipe is his retaliation by demonizing all of the left in response to what a few have said to score political points.

I also disagree with Snipe in his belief that Palin is in no way responsible for this media backlash against her.

[Snipe]

I thought this (http://althouse.blogspot.com/2011/01/our-spirited-political-discourse.html) was brilliant. Even the word Campaign is violent. Let us not have any more political campaigns!



Can you imagine writing about politics without the violent metaphors (and dead metaphors... yikes!)? You'd have to give up words like campaign! From the Online Etymology Dictionary:


campaign

1640s, "operation of an army in the field," from Fr. campagne "campaign," lit. "open country," from O.Fr. champagne "open country" (suited to military maneuvers), from L.L. campania "level country" (cf. It. campagna, Sp. campaña, Port. campanha), from L. campus "a field" ... Old armies spent winters in quarters and took to the "open field" to seek battle in summer. Extension of meaning from military to political is Amer.Eng. 1809. ...

And you know damned well that the people who are calling for the abandonment of violent metaphor are setting themselves up for hypocrisy when they go back to it. It will be so tedious to point it out when the time comes.

"Argument is war" was used as the first example of a metaphor we live by in the book "Metaphors We Live By":


Primarily on the basis of linguistic evidence, we have found that most of our ordinary conceptual system is metaphorical in nature. ...

To give some idea of what it could mean for a concept to be metaphorical and for such a concept to structure an everyday activity, let us start with the concept ARGUMENT and the conceptual metaphor ARGUMENT IS WAR. This metaphor is reflected in our everyday language by a wide variety of expressions:

ARGUMENT IS WAR

Your claims are indefensible.

He attacked every weak point in my argument.

His criticisms were right on target.

I demolished his argument.

I've never won an argument with him.

you disagree? Okay, shoot!

If you use that strategy, he'll wipe you out.

He shot down all of my arguments.

It is important to see that we don't just talk about arguments in terms of war. We can actually win or lose arguments. We see the person we are arguing with as an opponent. We attack his positions and we defend our own. We gain and lose ground. We plan and use strategies. If we find a position indefensible, we can abandon it and take a new line of attack. Many of the things we do in arguing are partially structured by the concept of war. Though there is no physical battle, there is a verbal battle, and the structure of an argument — attack, defense, counter-attack, etc. — reflects this. It is in this sense that the ARGUMENT IS WAR metaphor is one that we live by in this culture; its structures the actions we perform in arguing.

Try to imagine a culture where arguments are not viewed in terms of war, where no one wins or loses, where there is no sense of attacking or defending, gaining or losing ground. Imagine a culture where an argument is viewed as a dance, the participants are seen as performers, and the goal is to perform in a balanced and aesthetically pleasing way.

In such a culture, people would view arguments differently, experience them differently, carry them out differently, and talk about them differently. But we would probably not view them as arguing at all: they would simply be doing something different. It would seem strange even to call what they were doing "arguing." In perhaps the most neutral way of describing this difference between their culture and ours would be to say that we have a discourse form structured in terms of battle and they have one structured in terms of dance. This is an example of what it means for a metaphorical concept, namely, ARGUMENT IS WAR, to structure (at least in part) what we do and how we understand what we are doing when we argue. The essence of metaphor is understanding and experiencing one kind of thing in terms of another. It is not that arguments are a subspecies of war. Arguments and wars are different kinds of things — verbal discourse and armed conflict — and the actions performed are different kinds of actions. But ARGUMENT is partially structured, understood, performed, and talked about in terms of WAR. The concept is metaphorically structured, the activity is metaphorically structured, and, consequently, the language is metaphorically structured.

Moreover, this is the ordinary way of having an argument and talking about one. The normal way for us to talk about attacking a position is to use the words "attack a position." Our conventional ways of talking about arguments presuppose a metaphor we are hardly ever conscious of. The metaphors not merely in the words we use — it is in our very concept of an argument. The language of argument is not poetic, fanciful, or rhetorical; it is literal. We talk about arguments that way because we conceive of them that way — and we act according to the way we conceive of things.

The most important claim we have made so far is that metaphor is not just a matter of language, that is, of mere words. We shall argue that, on the contrary, human thought processes are largely metaphorical. This is what we mean when we say that the human conceptual system is metaphorically structured and defined. Metaphors as linguistic expressions are possible precisely because there are metaphors in a person's conceptual system. Therefore, whenever in this book we speak of metaphors, such as ARGUMENT IS WAR, it should be understood that metaphor means metaphorical concept.

Now, perhaps you think we shouldn't argue anymore and you'd like to deprive us of our war metaphors as a way to make us amiable, uncomplaining citizens in the future. You think that controlling speech would improve the world. But it wouldn't. In fact, it would be... doubleplusungood.

[Snipe]

Obama recently to Latinos:

‘We’re gonna punish our enemies"

[xnatic03]

I'm so fed up with the polarizing and politicizing of everything. Everything is someone on the other side's fault. This tragedy was quite frankly the fault of a f---ed up individual with f---ed
up beliefs. I'm so tired of the finger pointing, especially when there is no need or reason for it. This is exactly why I don't belong to any specific political party. This isn't Obama's fault or Palin's fault or anyone of that nature. This guy was a nut job, plain and simple. Now 6 people are dead, and many others injured and all we can do as Americans is try to assign blame. F---ing pathetic.

[smileyy]

What about Barack Obama's gun talk? Bring a gun when they bring a knife? He said that. Does that matter at all? Why would that be applicable.

Neither defending nor criticizing that statement, but it's a pretty famous Chicago cultural reference, so I'm not hugely surprised Obama made it. It's from The Untouchables:

"You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *Chicago* way!"

Re: Blame, etc, in recent posts:

The new American way is blame and cowardice, rather than accountability and courage.

[Snipe]

I'm so fed up with the polarizing and politicizing of everything. Everything is someone on the other side's fault. This tragedy was quite frankly the fault of a f---ed up individual with f---ed
up beliefs. I'm so tired of the finger pointing, especially when there is no need or reason for it. This is exactly why I don't belong to any specific political party. This isn't Obama's fault or Palin's fault or anyone of that nature. This guy was a nut job, plain and simple. Now 6 people are dead, and many others injured and all we can do as Americans is try to assign blame. F---ing pathetic.

In this case, which party was to blame for doing that? Nobody in the media jumped to blame Obama. Obama didn't kill this woman and I haven't seen that suggested in the media or on the blogs. Right off the bat Sarah Palin was a target. That is a problem, and they need to be called out on that. It is just wrong. It is F---ing pathetic, but lets not confuse who is to blame.

[Snipe]

Neither defending nor criticizing that statement, but it's a pretty famous Chicago cultural reference, so I'm not hugely surprised Obama made it. It's from The Untouchables:

"You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *Chicago* way!"

Re: Blame, etc, in recent posts:

The new American way is blame and cowardice, rather than accountability and courage.

Yes this is a cultural reference. So is getting a target in your sites. See this post above (http://www.xavierhoops.com/forums/showpost.php?p=235811&postcount=128).

People claim Palin was out of line. I don't think she was. I don't think Obama was out of line either. The only reason it is brought up is because people are tearing down Palin for violent rhetoric. We all use violent rhetoric. That excuse to attack Palin is incredibly weak.

[smileyy]

Snipe - I generally agree. They're all pretty common metaphors.

IMO, we'd be a lot better off without violent rhetoric. But given that we're fighting two "wars" that are destroying this country (in order to save it), I don't see that happening.

[Snipe]

Sarah Palin is not responsible. Most people realize that. But even she realizes her use of crosshair maps and rhetoric is not appropriate, otherwise she wouldn't have had her staff erase hours worth of posts and maps from her facebook site.

Sarah Palin got blamed immediately because of her own stupidity. Putting out a map that features gun sights on districts while saying "Don't retreat, reload" is just stupid. It has nothing to do with this shooting but it is incredibly stupid.

Sarah Palin had nothing to do with this. Pelosi is stupid in my opinion. I haven't blamed it on her. Obama is an idiot that thinks we have 57 states. He really said that. What a moron. I didn't blame him just because he is an idiot. So you think Sarah is stupid. That doesn't make her a killer. She shouldn't be involved in this conversation.

Do you realize the consequences of having your name involved in this conversation? I think the left does, and it is why they advance the argument that Sarah Palin was to blame in this killing. This is not the time to call out Sarah Palin. That is beyond the pale.

The left used this argument to target Sarah Palin. She had nothing to do with this. A guy killed a conservative democrat and a conservative judge and a 9 year old girl among others, and this is the blame of Sarah Palin? This isn't her fault. She may or may not be an idiot, but that isn't the point. Bringing her up and laying the blame upon her is the point. The vitriol given to Sarah Palin is incredible. This is a national tragedy, and thank God we can blame Sarah Palin. And if we don't blame her, we can at least concede she is an idiot. That is how they make points out of this. It is reprehensible and I don't mind pointing it out.

Look at every comment against Sarah Palin in this thread. This should not be about Sarah Palin. It really is that simple. It is unfair. It is wrong on a moral level.

[Snipe]

I understand what Snipe is saying and agree with him to an extent. In all actuality, what Snipe is saying makes a lot of sense. I think we all condemn the specific democrats in this case trying to pin this killer on Palin to score political points before the facts are out.

The area I disagree with Snipe is his retaliation by demonizing all of the left in response to what a few have said to score political points.

I also disagree with Snipe in his belief that Palin is in no way responsible for this media backlash against her.

It is not just what a few have said. They ran the Palin connection on CNN and MSNBC and it was in the New York Times. It was all over the blogosphere. I don't think at that point in media exposure you can simply say that is "what a few have said".


I think we all condemn the specific democrats in this case trying to pin this killer on Palin to score political points before the facts are out.


I don't think we have all condemned them. It is a nice statement. i condemn them for sure, but I don't think we all do. Did you read this thread?



I also disagree with Snipe in his belief that Palin is in no way responsible for this media backlash against her.

Sarah Palin is responsible for being targeted in this instance? We are talking about a very specific window here, and Palin is getting a lot of criticism in light of the shooting of a member of the House of Representatives. I think that is crazy and reprehensible, you view it as "media backlash".

Different worlds.

[Snipe]

Paul Krugman's latest in the New York Times:

Climate of Hate (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/opinion/10krugman.html)


When you heard the terrible news from Arizona, were you completely surprised? Or were you, at some level, expecting something like this atrocity to happen?

Put me in the latter category. I’ve had a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach ever since the final stages of the 2008 campaign. I remembered the upsurge in political hatred after Bill Clinton’s election in 1992 — an upsurge that culminated in the Oklahoma City bombing. And you could see, just by watching the crowds at McCain-Palin rallies, that it was ready to happen again. The Department of Homeland Security reached the same conclusion: in April 2009 an internal report warned that right-wing extremism was on the rise, with a growing potential for violence.

I wonder who Krugman is blaming?

You have to give him credit for not backing down, even after we now know the shooter has nothing to do with the right.

His initial reaction is here:

Assassination Attempt In Arizona (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/08/assassination-attempt-in-arizona/)


And for those wondering why a Blue Dog Democrat, the kind Republicans might be able to work with, might be a target, the answer is that she’s a Democrat who survived what was otherwise a GOP sweep in Arizona, precisely because the Republicans nominated a Tea Party activist. (Her father says that “the whole Tea Party” was her enemy.)

Let's hear it for the New York Times!

The woman is still in a hospital bed and the New York Times is making political hay out of this. I can't wait to hear DC Muskie with the takedown.

[Snipe]

Flashsback to November:

Democratic pollster Mark Penn on MSNBC's Hardball:

What Obama really needs is an Oklahoma City moment (http://hotair.com/archives/2010/11/05/dem-pollster-what-obama-really-needs-is-an-oklahoma-city-moment/)


President Clinton reconnected with Oklahoma. And the President right now he seems removed. And it wasn’t until that speech that he really clicked with the American people. Obama needs a similar kind of, yeah.

Obama needs an Oklahoma City? That is really something. Looks like some Dems at least have been hoping and waiting for a tragedy like this to come along so they could blame it on the right and "reconnect".

It really is part of the gameplan. It shouldn't surprise anyone here that Democrats would use this tragedy for political gain. It is straight out of the playbook. And that isn't partisan, that is just fact.

[xeus]

I blame Snipe. Clearly his internet moniker is intended to incite people to violence:

snipe
verb
sniped snip·ing
Definition of SNIPE
intransitive verb
1: to shoot at exposed individuals (as of an enemy's forces) from a usually concealed point of vantage
2: to aim a carping or snide


I find this inexcusable, irresponsible, reprehensible, and altogether unconscionable.

[PM Thor]

.Thor, you don't like Sarah Palin. It is no secret. You are not alone. Many people don't like Sarah Palin. That is fair enough as we all don't like plenty of people collectively.

Right after this woman got shot people started blaming Sarah Palin. What are your feelings about that Thor?

It's not that I don't like Sarah Palin. It's that I find her wholly unqualified, pretty much ignorant on national issues, and I most definitely don't want to be following any, and I mean ANY politician on their Twitter account for a source for their opinions. She is a private citizen, I hope that she stays that way.

As for people blaming Palin, I think it's wholly wrong, and I said that before. It's simple politics, by both sides, taking a tragedy and making it into a political event, when it isn't. It's a murderous act, nothing more.

Is it sparking a debate about the level of anger being thrown about by both sides politically? Yeah, it's morphed into that, but I find it reprehensible. It takes a tragedy to finally start that kind of discussion? Where was the concern before?

Do I blame Palin? Not in the least, I think people are taking advantage of this murderer to forward their own political views, and I think the response is doing exactly the same thing.

Am I being naive? Nope, I know the game, I just guess I am sick of this kind of event being politicized, just wish for people from both sides to stop trying to make the other side look bad and instead focus on doing something right for their constituents. It'll never happen, I guess that's why I am becoming more and more disillusioned with the political parties and the talking heads every day.

I HATE dayton.

[DC Muskie]

So not related to the current situation...are you suggesting she's not responsible for anything she says? Ever?

You're fine with the way she rallies you and other Teabaggers? With words like "salvo" and "take up arms" and "reload?"

Is that the only way to motive you loud and proud patriots? "Don't Tread on Me" and the like?

.......

[DC Muskie]

Snipe, do you think the Republicans took advantage politically of 9/11?

I HATE dayton.

Please don't bring that up. This entire conversation has completely spiraled out of control.

Let Snipe be the one to continue to rail.

And by the way, the NYT sucks. Hope that helps.

[GuyFawkes38]

John stewart is being very classy. Not blaming political rhetoric. "crazy finds a way".

Regardless, says it's an opportunity to be aware of too heated political rhetoric.

[LadyMuskie]

My heart and prayers go out to all the victims of this senseless act of violence. There is NEVER an excuse to kill someone in cold blood the way this lunatic killed and harmed Congresswoman Giffords and the others present at the grocery store.

In addition, I will say that I dislike Sarah Palin - a lot. However, she is no more responsible for this tragedy than Marilyn Manson is/was responsible for the Columbine shootings. Jared Loughner was insane. Now he is criminally insane. Perhaps, some rhetoric spoke to him and "told" him to try to execute a congresswoman, but that doesn't mean that Palin, or anyone else for that matter, is responsible for his mental illness.

If nothing else comes of this tragedy, I hope that one thing will. And that will be that we don't consider those who do not share our political views to be our enemies, but rather that they are simply the opposition. They don't need to be obliterated, or have their asses kicked just because we don't share the best way to make America even greater. We need to start listening to each more and talking less, in both parties. If you want to make a leap and say that someone beyond the lunatic who pulled the trigger is responsible for this violent act, then every person who has engaged in partisan politics is accountable. Every person who has decided that they don't like someone simply because there is an "R" or a "D" behind their name is responsible. Every person who shouted down an other's idea simply because they knew that person to be from the opposite side of the aisle is responsible.

Both parties want the best for America, and just because some one thinks that one way is better than another, does not mean that they are the enemy. This country has very real enemies, and they are not Republicans or Democrats. I'm am so sick of hearing the "us versus them" rhetoric from both parties that I could vomit. It is exactly the reason why I did not vote for McCain or Obama in '08. I may lean more left than right, politically, but I do not consider those who lean more right than left to be my enemies. The talking heads and politicians (and even every day citizens) need to remember that these are actual people they are discussing. We need to start treating each other with more respect and kindness when it comes to politics (among other things). We need to remember that no matter what God you pray to, at the end of days, I can guarantee you that He is not going to care one iota what political party you supported. What is going to be remembered is that you recognized a moral obligation to maintain a certain level of respect, civility, and kindness toward one another - even when we are most at odds.

I really hope that something good can come of these people losing their lives so that they won't have died in vain.

[GuyFawkes38]

Very good comments by Ladymuskie.

I'm sort of a news junkie. It's really heartening to see a backlash building against those members of the media who tried to pin this on the right. The facts just don't support any inspiration from a political source. The truth is coming out.

[MCXU]

Lets just say this guy was a right wing or left wing nut job. In the end would it matter?

I still think anyone who would do this would be crazy and not representative of the group.

Why is the attempt being made to put him in a category, Why would that matter?

[boozehound]

Lets just say this guy was a right wing or left wing nut job. In the end would it matter?

I still think anyone who would do this would be crazy and not representative of the group.

Why is the attempt being made to put him in a category, Why would that matter?

+1. What ever happened to crazy people just being crazy? Whatever his beliefs are, it doesn't matter because he is fu*king batshit crazy.

[Juice]

+1. What ever happened to crazy people just being crazy? Whatever his beliefs are, it doesn't matter because he is fu*king batshit crazy.

I heard this morning (from Fox News so take it FWIW) that Loughner was a registered Independent and did not even vote in the 2010 election. Sounds like he was really influenced by politics.

[xnatic03]

LadyMuskie is spot on. Snipe, I really don't care who pointed the fingers in this case. It happens on both sides. I was raised a by a staunch Republican dad and an Independent (somewhat conservative) mom and consider myself more conservative than not, but it comes from that side too. Maybe not in this case, but it happens a ton.
As many have stated on here, that dude is just plain crazy. It is a tragedy and no one, Republican or Democrat should be pointing fingers or politicizing this.

[Snipe]

I heard this morning (from Fox News so take it FWIW) that Loughner was a registered Independent and did not even vote in the 2010 election. Sounds like he was really influenced by politics.

Maybe we should smear all the independents. He registered and voted in Democratic landslide of 2006. He also voted in 2008. He did not vote in the Republican revival of 2010. Also interesting to find out his Jewish background as some people had claimed this might have been motivated by anti-Semitism.

[Snipe]

If nothing else comes of this tragedy, I hope that one thing will. And that will be that we don't consider those who do not share our political views to be our enemies, but rather that they are simply the opposition. They don't need to be obliterated, or have their asses kicked just because we don't share the best way to make America even greater.

I think we are already there. I don't know anyone who wants to obliterate or physically assault those people who don't share their opinion. I don't think this specific case is a good example of that type of thinking either. I think he was just a whack job. Could people tone down the rhetoric? Sure. For awhile it might be toned down. The differences still persist.

I am not even sure what constitutes harmful rhetoric. Barack Hussein Obama? If someone on the right says Hussein it can be viewed as hate speech from the left, yet someone on the left can say it beaming with pride. Socialist? A lefty rag like Newsweek can say on the cover "We are all Socialist's now" and it is fine, but if someone on the right calls Obama a Socialist then it becomes racist hate speech to some people.

I think this specific case is a good example. A nut job committed a horrible crime and killed people. Some prominent liberals immediately sought to pin the blame on Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and the Tea Party. They did this in an effort to gain a political advantage over people that they don't like. It was both despicable and reprehensible. Liberals often do look for a "teaching moment" in tragedies, and that teaching moment is often to advance their own agenda (as well as assert their moral superiority over others).

A good case in point was Matthew Shepard. (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=277685&page=3) (link from ABC News) He was the gay college student who became the "teaching moment" and the basis of hate crime legislation. He has also been the subject of books, movies and plays all advancing the gay agenda.


Former Laramie Police Detective Ben Fritzen, one of the lead investigators in the case, also believed robbery was the primary motive. "Matthew Shepard's sexual preference or sexual orientation certainly wasn't the motive in the homicide," he said.

"If it wasn't Shepard, they would have found another easy target. What it came down to really is drugs and money and two punks that were out looking for it," Fritzen said.

Shepard was involved in the drug scene. He was a meth user, HIV positive and suicidal. He knew his attackers from the drug scene too.


Another widely held belief about the case is that McKinney and Shepard had never met before their fateful encounter at the Fireside Lounge. But a number of sources tell "20/20" the two were not strangers.

"Everybody knew Matt Shepard was a partier just like Aaron, just like the rest of us," said Bopp.

In fact, Bopp said he had seen Shepard and McKinney together at parties. "Aaron was selling [drugs] and him and Matt would go off to the side and they'd come back. And Matt would be doing some meth then," he said.

This was a robbery gone wrong between two members of the Meth scene. Anyone remember that narrative?


A bartender familiar with the local drug scene, who asked to be identified only as "Jean," says she was friendly with Shepard. She also says McKinney and Shepard knew each other.

When she learned of the beating, she said, she recalls thinking, "It's either money or dope, yeah. He'd be the perfect target especially because Aaron knew him."

You just never hear the stuff that doesn't fit the narrative. After all, we need this case to push liberal hate crimes legislation.


Another Laramie resident, Elaine Baker, says she also saw McKinney and Shepard together in a social situation. Several weeks before the murder, she spent a night on the town in Doc O'Connor's limousine with a group that included both McKinney and Shepard.

"In the back of the limo, there was me, Stephanie, Doc, Aaron, Matthew Shepard," she said.

As word spread of the attack on Shepard, other people who knew him also suspected the drug scene might somehow be involved.

But it even gets more interesting that that. One or both of Matthew Shepard’s attackers may have actually been gay:


Did McKinney Have a Secret Sex Life?

O'Connor had known Aaron McKinney for years. In flush times, McKinney partied in O'Connor's limos, and, in fact, McKinney and his girlfriend lived for a while in an apartment on O'Connor's property.

O'Connor says he never heard McKinney express any anti-gay attitudes. In his interview with Vargas, O'Connor reveals his belief that McKinney is bisexual. "I know of an instance where he had a three-way, two guys and one gal," he said. "Because he did it with me."

O'Connor added, "I know he's bisexual. There ain't no doubt in my mind. He is bisexual."

McKinney's former girlfriend Price says she now believes that as well. "He was always into trying to talk me into having a three-way with one of his guy friends," she said.

So here we have a guy that admits to having sex with Matthew Shepard.

So what are the facts? Do they fit the narrative? Does it matter? Who wants to tell that story? Matthew Shepard was a troubled young HIV Positive and suicidal gay man. He was heavily into the meth drug scene. He was robbed and beaten to death by a friend of his from the drug scene, and that friend was also a homosexual. Who wants to tell the story of gay on gay violent crime, or the story of gay drug use or the spreading of HIV? That is not going to fit the narrative.

No, no no. The facts and the narrative must be fashioned into a cudgel that we can use to repeatedly beat our political opponents with. Liberals needed their "teaching moment" where they can sneer and look down upon the backward masses in Red State America.

In the present case I think the facts mean something. I don't want to pervert this into something it isn't. That the Democrats have tried to use this tragedy for political gain is wrong on a moral level.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edit: LadyMuskie, In my rambling I forgot to add another thought about how we treat each other.

I go toe to toe in political arguments here all the time. Sometimes you might figure that DC Muskie and I are going to hit each other over the heads with clubs. But I respect the humanity of the people that I argue with, and I have met most of them (even had beers!). I have had beers with DC Muskie, PM Thor, Vee and Emp just off this thread and we don't agree on much of anything politically. I consider these people friends of mine.

There are times for sure that the things that we say get heated, of that the rhetoric gets personal and inflammatory. Sometimes I just grabbed a stick and whacked the bees nest just for fun. But it all comes out in the wash. Many of my best friends are liberals.

I don’t think that this incident proves that this country has a problem with tolerance or political rhetoric. I don’t think that political rhetoric killed any of those people, and no evidence exists to really suggest that is at all the case. I think this country has many problems, but I don’t think political rhetoric is a big problem compared to the real problems that present themselves behind the rhetoric.

[Snipe]

LadyMuskie is spot on. Snipe, I really don't care who pointed the fingers in this case. It happens on both sides. I was raised a by a staunch Republican dad and an Independent (somewhat conservative) mom and consider myself more conservative than not, but it comes from that side too. Maybe not in this case, but it happens a ton.
As many have stated on here, that dude is just plain crazy. It is a tragedy and no one, Republican or Democrat should be pointing fingers or politicizing this.

If it happens on both sides you should call out both sides whenever you find them doing it.

You say you really don't care who pointed fingers in this case. If you don't care, and don't care to hold them accountable don't expect crap like this to ever end.

I agree with you that this is a tragedy that no one should be politicizing. That is my point as well. I think it is wrong. I also think they should be held accountable.

[Snipe]

Lets just say this guy was a right wing or left wing nut job. In the end would it matter?

I still think anyone who would do this would be crazy and not representative of the group.

Why is the attempt being made to put him in a category, Why would that matter?

Liberals have attempted to put him into a category to score political points and advance their own interests. They have blamed Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and the Tea Party. They do this because they do not like Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and the Tea Party. They want to advance their own interests at the expense of others, and they are using this tragedy to attempt to do just that.

You are correct though in your first though. If this man wasn't a crazy Jew who loves the Communist Manifesto, and he was a White Christian Tea Partier who loved Sarah Palin it wouldn't matter because whoever would do something like this has something wrong in his head.

[bobbiemcgee]

"Differences of opinion no longer are just that.

They must be the result of evil intent, or moral failure or dark forces."


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/os-mike-thomas-sarah-palin-shooting-020110110,0,3858548.column

[Snipe]

I blame Snipe. Clearly his internet moniker is intended to incite people to violence:

snipe
verb
sniped snip·ing
Definition of SNIPE
intransitive verb
1: to shoot at exposed individuals (as of an enemy's forces) from a usually concealed point of vantage
2: to aim a carping or snide


I find this inexcusable, irresponsible, reprehensible, and altogether unconscionable.

My nickname is Snipe and/or Sniper. It has been since college. What a violent man I must be.

Anyone ever go to Zips and get a beer from Killer? Now that guy obviously has a semantical problem with the new PC America.

[Snipe]

"Differences of opinion no longer are just that.

They must be the result of evil intent, or moral failure or dark forces."


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/os-mike-thomas-sarah-palin-shooting-020110110,0,3858548.column

Nice link. That is a fine article.

[Snipe]

Originally Posted by DC Muskie
So not related to the current situation...are you suggesting she's not responsible for anything she says? Ever?

You're fine with the way she rallies you and other Teabaggers? With words like "salvo" and "take up arms" and "reload?"

Is that the only way to motive you loud and proud patriots? "Don't Tread on Me" and the like?

1) Sarah Palin is responsible for everything that she says.

2) I have never been to a Palin rally. I find the term Teabagger derisive and offensive. I have no problem with the words like "salvo" and "take up arms" and "reload". I don't even take pause when people in Congress talk about the "nuclear option" when they are referring to Congressional voting. I don't mind when they "kill a bill" or if the bill on cap and trade "died" or was "dead on arrival" in the Senate.

We use violent rhetoric in everyday life. We use it here on this message board. We just played the Crosstown Shootout. Do we have blood on our hands? That is absurd and you know it. You are a silly man.

3) Plenty of ways to motivate the masses, and rhetoric is one effective tool.

On a side note, semantics have always interested me. They interest everyone that takes an interest in history, politics, propaganda and rhetoric in general.

Think about the word abortion or the words "capital punishment". We use violent rhetoric over Senate bills, but when we get down to actual violence we use ambiguous words that deny the violence. We kill an innocent child in the womb and we dare not say "killing" or "murder". We don't even call it a child or even acknowledge that it is human. It is a "fetus". A fetus was aborted sounds a lot better than another child was murdered today. It is funny in a way, a sad and tragic way that really isn't that funny at all. We use violent metaphors all the time in everyday speech to describe non-violent events, and we use non-violent semantics to describe actual killing.

[Snipe]

Originally Posted by PM Thor
Snipe, do you think the Republicans took advantage politically of 9/11?

I guess you can make an arugment that they did.

The old Biden joke about Rudy:


Rudy Giuliani... I mean, think about it! Rudy Giuliani. There's only three things he mentions in a sentence -- a noun, a verb, and 9/11

Giuliani did the lecture circut across America and he talked about 9/11. In his defense the people that came wanted to hear him speak about 9/11.

9/11 was also a huge event of national significance. Kind of apples and oranges to this madman on a shooting spree.

[DC Muskie]

1) Sarah Palin is responsible for everything that she says.

2) I have never been to a Palin rally. I find the term Teabagger derisive and offensive. I have no problem with the words like "salvo" and "take up arms" and "reload". I don't even take pause when people in Congress talk about the "nuclear option" when they are referring to Congressional voting. I don't mind when they "kill a bill" or if the bill on cap and trade "died" or was "dead on arrival" in the Senate.

We use violent rhetoric in everyday life. We use it here on this message board. We just played the Crosstown Shootout. Do we have blood on our hands? That is absurd and you know it. You are a silly man.

3) Plenty of ways to motivate the masses, and rhetoric is one effective tool.


1. I'm glad you at least acknowledge that much.

2. I'm not sure what else you call a teabagger other than a teabagger. They are using revolutionary term that celebrates overthrowing a tyrannical government. I think calling yourself A Tea Party Patriot, actually means you don't want to be American. I can't think of anything more derisive and offensive.

3. I don't think people carry guns to the Crosstown Shootout. I do know they carry them to political rallies like the one the teabaggers organize. I'm not sure why. It's their right to do so. Maybe they are afraid the liberal left will come after them.

I agree that we use violent language too much in everyday lingo, but that doesn't make it right. Sure it's fun, but we do stuff all the time that isn't right but man it's fun.

But I will say this...we don't live in vacuum, cocooned inside a shell where what we do and say doesn't effect other people. I think it's wrong to use revolutionary references in political rhetoric, especially when you have no idea what it actually means... I think it's especially wrong to jump to conclusions about someone without having all the evidence, and I think it's also wrong to spend so much time and energy depicting a group of people who don't like or ever liked with the same kind of talk you would not want done to you.

But it will never stop. Not me, not you. Not the bogey man left, or the teabagging right. It will be business as usual. Nothing is going to stop it. And that makes me sad.

[xeus]

3. I don't think people carry guns to the Crosstown Shootout.



You can be sure my man Roy Bright did. (http://www.wlwt.com/sports/4473093/detail.html)

[Strange Brew]

[QUOTE=DC Muskie;236100]
2. I'm not sure what else you call a teabagger other than a teabagger. They are using revolutionary term that celebrates overthrowing a tyrannical government. I think calling yourself A Tea Party Patriot, actually means you don't want to be American. I can't think of anything more derisive and offensive.

you could try tea partier or a person who considers themselves in alignment with the views of the tea party (especially with all of the calls to tone down the rhetoric).

Actually, most Tea Partiers are celebrating a reliance on the individual and a smaller Gov't. But, you're probably right, they don't want to be American. Hey, maybe they want to fundementally transform America (oh wait, that is someone's elses vision which is pretty derisive and offensive) or maybe they would like to have its Federal Government respect the document that its States and People have created and ratified over the years to ensure that the Fed doesn't become the tyannical State that the original Tea Partiers (teabaggers to use your crude connotation) railed against.

[wkrq59]

There is just too damned much rhetoric espousing violence and too many people who should be trying to soften it, are actually espousing and encouraging it by not stepping up. Then, when a tragedy occurs, they're the first to say, "Not me, that's not what I meant." It's like the interviewee who constantly is quoted out of context and isn't. Momma always said, "If you don't mean it, then don't say it."
:(:mad:

[GuyFawkes38]

I was just thinking about Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine".

At one point, Michael Moore discovers that a Lockheed Martin missile research center lies close to Columbine. Furthermore, the US at that time had military forces under NATO in the Balkan peninsula.

Heh, as a result, Michael Moore argues that the Columbine shooters were living in a culture of violence. Surely the shooters thought, because there's a missile research facility nearby, that means we can shoot our classmates.

What a ridiculous and messy argument. I doubt the shooters even knew Lockheed Martin had a research center nearby. And the Kosovo mission, in retrospect, likely saved thousands of lives.

Anyways, it really reminds me of the effort to try to pin this on a culture of violent rhetoric. It just doesn't work.

[pizza delivery]

I can't imagine anything has really come of this thread, and I haven't read since page 4 or something. Knowing Snipe, after he got warmed up he wasn't going to let it rest. :)

But here's what I'd like to add:

This mentally ill man owns whomever finds conflict from what he did:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XLsmYse0MCw/TSujTyY59-I/AAAAAAAACi4/u_pyDopJ_ig/s1600/Jared-Loughner-Gabrielle-Giffords.jpg


"He was a nihilist and loves causing chaos, and that is probably why he did the shooting, along with the fact he was sick in the head," said Zane Gutierrez, 21, who was living in a trailer outside Tucson and met Mr. Loughner sometimes to shoot at cans for target practice.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11012/1117332-84.stm#ixzz1AnxRkPw1

Stop and think about it. It's a non-issue. Pray for the victims, pray for their families, and pray for the shooter and his family too. It's all a shame.

[DC Muskie]

[QUOTE=DC Muskie;236100]
2. I'm not sure what else you call a teabagger other than a teabagger. They are using revolutionary term that celebrates overthrowing a tyrannical government. I think calling yourself A Tea Party Patriot, actually means you don't want to be American. I can't think of anything more derisive and offensive.

you could try tea partier or a person who considers themselves in alignment with the views of the tea party (especially with all of the calls to tone down the rhetoric).

Actually, most Tea Partiers are celebrating a reliance on the individual and a smaller Gov't. But, you're probably right, they don't want to be American. Hey, maybe they want to fundementally transform America (oh wait, that is someone's elses vision which is pretty derisive and offensive) or maybe they would like to have its Federal Government respect the document that its States and People have created and ratified over the years to ensure that the Fed doesn't become the tyannical State that the original Tea Partiers (teabaggers to use your crude connotation) railed against.

You realize the ACTUAL Tea Party wasn't about fundamentally changing an elected government right? The colonists didn't elect King George. I have that correct, don't I? So why in the world do people reference that in today's reality? Couldn't they come up with a reference that actually makes sense?

Teabaggers remind me of American soccer fans. They use the same "Don't Tread On Me" flags and the snake imagery to rally themselves for a game. They have no idea what they are doing in my opinion.

But defend an idea that is fundamentally and factually incorrect. I'm all for promoting smaller government ideas, and holding the elected officials accountable. I might not agree with all of it, but I'm all for citizens promoting their rights. But it's 2011. We actually have a government that replaced the government the ACTUAL Tea Partiers protested. So I'm not sure why, with our system of government that actually protects people's right to protest, reference something that has no basis in reality. But hey, it's not an actual Revolution but a make believe Revolution people are talking about!

[Snipe]

I can't imagine anything has really come of this thread, and I haven't read since page 4 or something. Knowing Snipe, after he got warmed up he wasn't going to let it rest. :)

But here's what I'd like to add:

This mentally ill man owns whomever finds conflict from what he did:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XLsmYse0MCw/TSujTyY59-I/AAAAAAAACi4/u_pyDopJ_ig/s1600/Jared-Loughner-Gabrielle-Giffords.jpg



Stop and think about it. It's a non-issue. Pray for the victims, pray for their families, and pray for the shooter and his family too. It's all a shame.

I agree that the blame should be on the mental-case shooter. This shouldn't have been made into a political issue. The people that are making it into a political issue should be condemned. People tried to tie Sarah Palin to this murder for political gain. That is just wrong.

[Snipe]

Sarah Palin seems to agree:


President Reagan said, “We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” Acts of monstrous criminality stand on their own. They begin and end with the criminals who commit them, not collectively with all the citizens of a state, not with those who listen to talk radio, not with maps of swing districts used by both sides of the aisle, not with law-abiding citizens who respectfully exercise their First Amendment rights at campaign rallies, not with those who proudly voted in the last election.

...

Vigorous and spirited public debates during elections are among our most cherished traditions. And after the election, we shake hands and get back to work, and often both sides find common ground back in D.C. and elsewhere. If you don’t like a person’s vision for the country, you’re free to debate that vision. If you don’t like their ideas, you’re free to propose better ideas. But, especially within hours of a tragedy unfolding, journalists and pundits should not manufacture a blood libel that serves only to incite the very hatred and violence they purport to condemn. That is reprehensible.

[Snipe]

Clyburn: Palin intellectually 'not to be able to understand what's going on here' (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/137411-clyburn-palin-intellectually-not-to-be-able-to-understand-whats-going-on-here)


A House Democratic leader on Wednesday lashed out at Sarah Palin, accusing the former Alaska governor of being intellectually unable of understanding why she's faced criticism related to the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.).

Assistant Democratic Leader James Clyburn (D-S.C.) said that Palin had missed the point by releasing a statement this morning blasting the media for "blood libel" for looking to assign blame in part to her rhetoric after the attempted assassination of Giffords last weekend.

"You know, Sarah Palin just can't seem to get it, on any front. I think she's an attractive person, she is articulate," Clyburn said on the Bill Press radio show. "But I think intellectually, she seems not to be able to understand what's going on here."

It seems like Sarah Palin has a better grasp on the situation than Mr. Clyburn. If a Republican said of Clyburn (who happens to be black) that he is a nice guy, and he is articulate, but intellectually he just doesn't seem able to understand or comprehend the issues at hand the left would scream racism before the print was dry.

For the record Clyburn has a history of calling the Tea Party a bunch of racists. He even alleged that racial slurs were hurled at him and other black congressmen earlier last year. Video tape of the event provided no such evidence. Clyburn is a race-baiting liar and a political opportunist that will use any dirty trick in the book to demonize the other side.

So who looks better in this exchange, Palin or Clyburn?

[pizza delivery]

Clyburn: Palin intellectually 'not to be able to understand what's going on here' (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/137411-clyburn-palin-intellectually-not-to-be-able-to-understand-whats-going-on-here)



It seems like Sarah Palin has a better grasp on the situation than Mr. Clyburn. If a Republican said of Clyburn (who happens to be black) that he is a nice guy, and he is articulate, but intellectually he just doesn't seem able to understand or comprehend the issues at hand the left would scream racism before the print was dry.

For the record Clyburn has a history of calling the Tea Party a bunch of racists. He even alleged that racial slurs were hurled at him and other black congressmen earlier last year. Video tape of the event provided no such evidence. Clyburn is a race-baiting liar and a political opportunist that will use any dirty trick in the book to demonize the other side.

So who looks better in this exchange, Palin or Clyburn?

Clyburn sounds like Ron Burgundy there, he needs to get a grip as well.

It's hard to resist accusing the other side when it was a Democrat that was shot at a political event, so all this speculation is no surprise. Since we're imagining all kinds of things for you Snipe, how about if a white republican Representative, who was known for anti immigration, was shot in LA by a crazy Latino lady that graduated from Berkley? LOL, it's kind of the political inverse of what happened. Glenn Beck's head may actually explode. The media on either side is not pure and they're not supposed to be leaders. Clearly, the left, and much of it's leadership has fallen into a trap the shooter probably relishes.

Secondly, it may also be hard, if you're a politician, to resist the urge to talk about the nasty, dark side of political life - threats, intimidation, violence, hatred, bigotry - so as to call on the public for relief from it all. People thank soldiers who are ready for the ultimate sacrifice, as they should, but politicians are mostly left without thanks (perhaps, as they should be :D). Maybe the volume will get turned down on these things for a while, and that's a good thing, but who can say it will last? It still doesn't excuse Clyburn for dealing in the currency he is right now, it's pretty short sighted.

[DC Muskie]

Sarah Palin is not responsible, but she is also not the victim.

I really do enjoy reading how hypothetically if the shoe was on the other foot, somehow the republicans would sit idly in the corner sucking their thumbs. Each side will use this. Like i said before, nothing will change. Hell nothing has changed on this thread.

I do think Sarah Palin is attractive. Actually I think she is flat out hot. She's got that whole Librarian thing going on. I also think she is super, duper dumb. And yes I said super, duper to describe her, because that's the whiny, sing-songy tone in her voice so annoying.

[Snipe]

It's hard to resist accusing the other side when it was a Democrat that was shot at a political event, so all this speculation is no surprise. Since we're imagining all kinds of things for you Snipe, how about if a white republican Representative, who was known for anti immigration, was shot in LA by a crazy Latino lady that graduated from Berkley? LOL, it's kind of the political inverse of what happened. Glenn Beck's head may actually explode. The media on either side is not pure and they're not supposed to be leaders. Clearly, the left, and much of it's leadership has fallen into a trap the shooter probably relishes.


I don't think that it is the "political inverse". This woman was a conservative. She was a Blue Dog Democrat and well liked in her state. A Republican appointed Judge was also shot. The killer was an athiest Jew. He was an Anti-war "9/11 truther". If this guy had a traditional profile of the right instead of what he has conservatives would have had hell to pay. They are still trying to link it to the right. Newsweek just put out an article that is hysterical.

And to answer your question, I think that Glenn Beck would surprise you and wait until some of the facts came in. Everybody says caution when an American Muslim shoots up Fort Hood. In this instance many in the media, blogs and pundit class leaped to blame the right wing. This isn't a case of both sides doing it, it is a case of one side doing it.

And if Bush was President, the anti-war thoughts of this mental patient would have been played up. If the media liked to do anything back in the day it was blame Bush. I kind of miss blaming Bush for everything, at least for everything that we couldn't blame on global warming.

[DC Muskie]

Seriously if you didn't know anything about reality in America and happen to stumble onto this site and just read Snipe, you would think this country has been dominated by a controlling left wing upper class. Like forever.

Keep going Snipe. Tell me how no one ever blames a Democrat for anything.

[Snipe]

Tell me how no one ever blames a Democrat for anything.

I open the floor up for suggestions!

Can we find an analogous situation to what is happening in Tucson where Democrats were blamed? Conservatives even got blamed for JFK and the "Climate of Hate" in Dallas even though a Communist shot him.

Find me a situation where the media, pundits and the chattering classes rushed to blame a Democrat after any murder, assassination or mass murder.

I am sincerely interested to know if you actually think that both sides do this. I would like to see what examples you can come up with.

[Snipe]

This stuff from Newsweek is really something beyond the pale: the page banner reads "Homeland Security Study Warned of Right-Wing Extremism:


The Missed Warning Signs (http://www.newsweek.com/2011/01/11/homeland-security-study-warned-of-right-wing-extremism.html)
A 2009 study warned that the rise of right-wing extremism could spur violent attacks. But the report was attacked by Republicans, including now-Speaker John Boehner.

Two years before the Tucson massacre, the Department of Homeland Security warned in a report that right-wing extremism was on the rise and could prompt "lone wolves" to launch attacks. But the agency backed away from the report amid intense criticism from Republicans, including future House Speaker John Boehner.

The report, which warned that the crippled economy and the election of the first black president were “unique drivers for right-wing radicalization and recruitment,” described the rise of “lone wolves and small terrorist cells embracing violent right-wing extremist ideology [as] the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the United States,” according to a copy reviewed by The Center for Public Integrity.

In the wake of last weekend’s attempted assassination of Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, which left six dead and 14 wounded, the report’s warning of a lone wolf attack from someone with extremist tendencies seems prescient.

They are still laying this right at the feet of the right. Conservatives need to police themselves of all Anti-war, 9/11 truther Atheist Jews who like to burn the American flag and read the Communist Manifesto. I saw a bunch of those people at the last Tea Party rally. We need to make sure none of those guys is the next lone wolf.

I mean really.

[XU 87]

I was trying to say out of this one but...... I think it is nothing short of disgraceful and shameful that some on the left, including the Arizona sheriff, are using 6 deaths, including the death of a child, to score political points. How low can one go?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

If it happens on both sides you should call out both sides whenever you find them doing it.

I agree with you that this is a tragedy that no one should be politicizing. That is my point as well. I think it is wrong. I also think they should be held accountable.

I think what certain democrats have done jumping the gun, including the sheriff, is wrong. I think they are selfish and morally wrong for their exploitation. I think their initial statements are starting to backfire and they deserve whatever condemnation they get in the press. They deserve to be ridiculed because of what they said and they will eventually. I have no sympathy for them. Even some left leaning websites and newspapers have come out in support of Palin, Angle, and the others for trying to link them to this tragedy.

What is being held accountable to you? Losing their job? Jail time? Fines? Watching reruns of Saved by the Bell the College years for 2 weeks straight? Having to eat Hooters wings? Where does the line of free speech end? What about Sarah Palin's teleprompted response politicizing the fact that she was politicized against during a time of tragedy? Is that a less severe penalty or a penalty at all?

[DC Muskie]

Snipe I really don't want to o down your path of nonsense. But may just point out.

Have you not paid attention to this country especially after 9/11?

Democrats are weak on defense. They caused terrorists to attack us. Bill Clinton was getting a blow job and not paying attention to the Muslims!

What about Waco? Man of man, did the left feel the heat on that one. Totally botched that one.

Should no one have jumped on Cheney when he actually shot someone? In the face? You can't get more conservative than Dick Cheney.

Come to think of it, I think it's funny for you to ask me to compare something that has never happened.

You do understand that conservatives have their entire network of media outlets?

For the past few days you have been railing against one side for doing this for political gain. Do you really not think the right will use this as well? I mean why on earth are you continuing with this? Even better question, why do I keep responding? I have no idea to both.

everybody here knows you hate, absolutely HATE anything to do with the left. It's amazing that you have a computer, a house, a job, or anything. In fact you have done in spite the fact that the left has spent your entire lifetime trying to stop you.

We live in a 24 hour constant news cycle. It doesn't surprise me we jump to any conclusions. What's not surprising is no one is willing to rise above it. Palin blew her chance. Hell she even used the term "blood libel." Holy Cow Batman.

It's funny when talking about guns and violence. The NRA controls the gun conversation in this country. Look up "gun control" on google. You'll find more pro-gun slants on that topic than actual pro gun control. That's amazing since the left seems to want to control everything. Strange.

[DC Muskie]

I was trying to say out of this one but...... I think it is nothing short of disgraceful and shameful that some on the left, including the Arizona sheriff, are using 6 deaths, including the death of a child, to score political points. How low can one go?

There's a definite tit-for-tat comment here. But since I have been trying to point out how ridiculous those responses are...I will just agree with you.

[Snipe]

I was trying to say out of this one but...... I think it is nothing short of disgraceful and shameful that some on the left, including the Arizona sheriff, are using 6 deaths, including the death of a child, to score political points. How low can one go?

It is abhorrent and despicable behavior for sure. It can't afford to go unnoticed.


I think what certain democrats have done jumping the gun, including the sheriff, is wrong. I think they are selfish and morally wrong for their exploitation. I think their initial statements are starting to backfire and they deserve whatever condemnation they get in the press. They deserve to be ridiculed because of what they said and they will eventually. I have no sympathy for them. Even some left leaning websites and newspapers have come out in support of Palin, Angle, and the others for trying to link them to this tragedy.

What is being held accountable to you? Losing their job? Jail time? Fines? Watching reruns of Saved by the Bell the College years for 2 weeks straight? Having to eat Hooters wings? Where does the line of free speech end? What about Sarah Palin's teleprompted response politicizing the fact that she was politicized against during a time of tragedy? Is that a less severe penalty or a penalty at all?

Saved by the Bell would be a good start but I would rather be water-boarded. Largely I believe in freedom of expression though, so I would be more interested in discrediting them and have people from both sides come together and condemn them.

As for Palin, some people were critical that she didn't have an adequate reply earlier. She was insinuated to have caused this mass murder. I think she has every right to speak on her own defense, and I think she has the right to go after the people who made those baseless and reprehensible accusations.

I watched a guy on Morning Joe say that Republicans have dropped the ball by not "turning the other cheek". Like you can be accused of murder and you should just let that stand, be better than that. PMThor advanced the same argument on this thread. How does that work exactly? Someone can just libel you and if you defend yourself it is the dreaded "left-right" politics that we all abhor? This isn't a case of left-right equal culpability, this is the case of leftists going way over the line and using a tragedy for political gain. It is the Oklahoma City playbook all over again.

[pizza delivery]

Assassins' motives have ranged across a wide spectrum. Some have clearly been mentally deranged, like Richard Lawrence or John Schrank, who wounded Theodore Roosevelt as the ex-President ran for a third term in 1912, or John Hinckley, Jr., who shot President Ronald Reagan and three other men in 1981. Schrank claimed the shooting was ordered by President William McKinley's ghost as punishment for Roosevelt's attempt to establish a dictatorship. Hinckley, a jury found, lacked the ability to control his actions because he suffered from a mental delusion involving actress Jodie Foster.

Other assassins had clear political or ideological motives for their crimes but suffered from a paranoid or schizophrenic style of thinking and chose their victim almost at random. Giuseppe Zangara, a 32-year old Italian bricklayer, who shot at President-elect Franklin Roosevelt in 1933 but killed Chicago Mayor Anton Cermak instead, believed that the U.S. government was hostile to immigrant radicals. He originally planned to shoot Herbert Hoover before he read in a Miami newspaper that President-elect Franklin Roosevelt would be in town the next day. Samuel Byck, a 44-year old Philadelphian, was angry at the Small Business Administration when he rushed a gate at Baltimore-Washington International Airport in 1974 and killed a security guard in an aborted attempt to seize an airliner and stage a kamikaze-style attack on the White House.

Only a small number of assassination attempts have been motivated by ideology, such as John Wilkes Booth's assault on President Lincoln in 1865 or anarchist Leon Czolgosz against William McKinley in 1901 (declared Czolgosz, "I don't believe in the Republican form of government and I don't believe we should have any rulers. It is right to kill them").


For more on American history on assassinations go here: http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/assassinations.cfm

Snipe if you want to hash it all out as to who got the blame in each attempt, go for it!

[PM Thor]

It is abhorrent and despicable behavior for sure. It can't afford to go unnoticed.



Saved by the Bell would be a good start but I would rather be water-boarded. Largely I believe in freedom of expression though, so I would be more interested in discrediting them and have people from both sides come together and condemn them.

As for Palin, some people were critical that she didn't have an adequate reply earlier. She was insinuated to have caused this mass murder. I think she has every right to speak on her own defense, and I think she has the right to go after the people who made those baseless and reprehensible accusations.

I watched a guy on Morning Joe say that Republicans have dropped the ball by not "turning the other cheek". Like you can be accused of murder and you should just let that stand, be better than that. PMThor advanced the same argument on this thread. How does that work exactly? Someone can just libel you and if you defend yourself it is the dreaded "left-right" politics that we all abhor? This isn't a case of left-right equal culpability, this is the case of leftists going way over the line and using a tragedy for political gain. It is the Oklahoma City playbook all over again.

That's easy, you don't even engage in the conversation. Come out with a statement that you are praying for the dead, wounded and the families, and move on.

You don't give any semblance of validation by having a conversation with someone who already has their minds made up on an inssue, and this is especially true if you believe that the people making the argument are loony. By arguing so vociferously against the accusation, you give people pause to actually look at it. By not even giving it a second thought, it's a non starter story that won't stay in the news cycle very long at all.

It's akin to arguing with people who don't believe the Holocaust happened or that 9/11 was an inside job (obviously very different scenarios, but it works in this premise). You can argue with them until you are blue in the face, show them facts and survivors and all the evidence that there is, but you will never, ever convince them their supposed belief is wrong. Best thing to do is just ignore the accusations from some people sometimes.

I HATE dayton.

[Kahns Krazy]

That's easy, you don't even engage in the conversation. Come out with a statement that you are praying for the dead, wounded and the families, and move on.

You don't give any semblance of validation by having a conversation with someone who already has their minds made up on an inssue, and this is especially true if you believe that the people making the argument are loony. By arguing so vociferously against the accusation, you give people pause to actually look at it....I HATE dayton.[/COLOR][/B]


Some advice you took very well in the recent city budget discussions on this board. :rolleyes:

[Kahns Krazy]

Snipe I really don't want to o down your path of nonsense. But may just point out.

Have you not paid attention to this country especially after 9/11?.

What is this 9/11 thing you refer to? Never heard of it. You must be so enlightened.



http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071120012139/familyguy/images/thumb/8/8c/FGPadreFamilia.jpg/310px-FGPadreFamilia.jpg

Peter [dressed up in an American flag suit]: Good morning, my American family!
Lois: Peter, where did you get that suit?
Stewie: My God, you look like the Statue of Liberty's pimp. [he and Brian high-five each other]
Peter: This is how a patriot dresses, Lois! Boy, I never knew it would feel this good to love my country. It's like loving God or a step-parent. You never really feel them love you back, but that's OK, because they got other stuff going on and you understand.
Brian: Peter, you do realize there's a difference between loving America and being swept up in post-9/11 paranoia.
Peter: Brian, are you suggesting that 9/11 didn't change everything?
Brian: What? No, I was just...
Peter: 'Cause 9/11 changed everything, Brian! 9/11 changed everything!
Brian: Peter, you didn't even know what 9/11 was until 2004.

[PM Thor]

Some advice you took very well in the recent city budget discussions on this board. :rolleyes:

I'm just a lowly roughneck, not a national political figure. Comparing the two aren't exactly the same thing, to say the least.

I HATE dayton.

[DC Muskie]

Kahns that scene with the American flag suit reminds me of the time I went to a US National team soccer game at RFK back in 1999. My brother who is a Major in Army (An fellow Xavier grad) saw some guy wearing the flag as a cape and basically started yelling at him for disrespecting the flag. I had to remind him that the guy was a soccer dork and had no idea what he was doing.

Well done!

[Strange Brew]

Kahns that scene with the American flag suit reminds me of the time I went to a US National team soccer game at RFK back in 1999. My brother who is a Major in Army (An fellow Xavier grad) saw some guy wearing the flag as a cape and basically started yelling at him for disrespecting the flag. I had to remind him that the guy was a soccer dork and had no idea what he was doing.

Well done!

soccer+dork=redundancy :D

[Kahns Krazy]

I'm just a lowly roughneck, not a national political figure. Comparing the two aren't exactly the same thing, to say the least.

I HATE dayton.

And you were responding to a department being over budget, not being accused of being responsible for a mass murder. It's easy to tell someone else how to react.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

soccer+dork=redundancy :D

Haha. Uh oh, the Russians are not pleased with your comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgEwh3px9hc

[GoMuskies]

Haha. Uh oh, the Russians are not pleased with your comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgEwh3px9hc

Wow, that is the most idiotic thing I've ever seen.

[Porkopolis]

Wow, that is the most idiotic thing I've ever seen.

Just wait until you see the Romans at work. They fight all night long.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5t7M0YK8ac


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3Fad6W0-aQ

[Strange Brew]

[QUOTE=Strange Brew;236236]

You realize the ACTUAL Tea Party wasn't about fundamentally changing an elected government right? The colonists didn't elect King George. I have that correct, don't I? So why in the world do people reference that in today's reality? Couldn't they come up with a reference that actually makes sense? !


I do, President Obama spoke about "Fundamentally Transforming America" in his acceptance speach, not the Tea Party. Yes, the colonist didn't directly elect King George however there was a House of the people i.e. Parlament (they also had no say in that representation) and a law was passed placing an unfair tax on tea. THAT's why those individuals protested. Thus the original tea party was an event not an idealogy or party.

The modern Tea Party came about after the previous Congress and President passed a "Stimulus" Bill without reading it. It began when Rick Santorum (sp) was so upset with its passing that he exclaimed and I'm paraphrasing that there "should to be a Tea Party esque event about this".

This statement ignighted a feeling that has been beaten down in this country for the last 20 years. That feeling is, in a nutshell that the Federal Gov't should limit itself to it's founding document (with ammendments of course) and leave me the heck alone.

[GoMuskies]

It was CNBC's Rick Santelli.

He is obviously to blame for the shooting in Tuscon.

[ConfusedBulldog]

He is obviously to blame for the shooting in Tuscon.

Personally, I'm blaming the gun producers, video game developers, and g-string makers.

[DC Muskie]

[QUOTE=DC Muskie;236262]


I do, President Obama spoke about "Fundamentally Transforming America" in his acceptance speach, not the Tea Party. Yes, the colonist didn't directly elect King George however there was a House of the people i.e. Parlament (they also had no say in that representation) and a law was passed placing an unfair tax on tea. THAT's why those individuals protested. Thus the original tea party was an event not an idealogy or party.

The modern Tea Party came about after the previous Congress and President passed a "Stimulus" Bill without reading it. It began when Rick Santorum (sp) was so upset with its passing that he exclaimed and I'm paraphrasing that there "should to be a Tea Party esque event about this".

This statement ignighted a feeling that has been beaten down in this country for the last 20 years. That feeling is, in a nutshell that the Federal Gov't should limit itself to it's founding document (with ammendments of course) and leave me the heck alone.

There you have it folks. My case is rested.

We have "original" tea party and the "modern" tea party.

Holy cow.

And then to wrap it up, we have the standard "here's what I think the federal government was really founded on" jargon, and people are walking around talking about taking up arms because the people they elected to govern them, are somehow not doing the job they want them to do.

And we wonder why we are screwed up.

[Kahns Krazy]

2. I'm not sure what else you call a teabagger other than a teabagger. They are using revolutionary term that celebrates overthrowing a tyrannical government. I think calling yourself A Tea Party Patriot, actually means you don't want to be American. I can't think of anything more derisive and offensive.
.

Some times you Democrassholes are truly ignorant.

[DC Muskie]

Some times you Democrassholes are truly ignorant.

I'm sorry are you talking about "original" Democrassholes or "modern" Democrassholes?

Being ignorant I just need some clarification.

[Strange Brew]

[QUOTE=Strange Brew;237413]

There you have it folks. My case is rested.

We have "original" tea party and the "modern" tea party.

Holy cow.

And then to wrap it up, we have the standard "here's what I think the federal government was really founded on" jargon, and people are walking around talking about taking up arms because the people they elected to govern them, are somehow not doing the job they want them to do.

And we wonder why we are screwed up.

The only case you've rested is that you have a curious combination of naivety and cynicism.

[X4LIFE]

I know this thread is old but I want to put in my two cents. The fault lies with the nutjob who shot Giffords.Plain and simple. Not the right not the left or any other political agenda. Palin had NOTHING to do with it. She isn't the first to use crosshairs (which by the way have also been used by Democrats!), her rhetoric is not unlike that of former and/or current politicians (Democrats, yes DEMOCRATS, included). And for those on the left, the tea party is a good thing. They are actually giving this country some hope of a better America. It may not be the change YOU want but it is the change a MAJORITY OF AMERICANS want. Part of the problem with the left is that a small number of people with power in politics, in the media, or who have wealth think they know what's best for the "simple-minded masses". Like it or not this country is finally standing up and expressing through their vote what they want. And that's the way it should be.

[Porkopolis]

It may not be the change YOU want but it is the change a MAJORITY OF AMERICANS want.

Would that be the same majority of Americans that voted for Obama in 2008, or a different majority? Just trying to get my "facts" straight. Some evidence to back up your claim of a majority wanting the change pushed by the Tea Party (not just polls showing opposition to Obamacare, but the rest of the t.p. agenda) would be appreciated. And, no, gaining control of the House doesn't prove a majority of anything.

[DC Muskie]

I know this thread is old but I want to put in my two cents. The fault lies with the nutjob who shot Giffords.Plain and simple. Not the right not the left or any other political agenda. Palin had NOTHING to do with it. She isn't the first to use crosshairs (which by the way have also been used by Democrats!), her rhetoric is not unlike that of former and/or current politicians (Democrats, yes DEMOCRATS, included). And for those on the left, the tea party is a good thing. They are actually giving this country some hope of a better America. It may not be the change YOU want but it is the change a MAJORITY OF AMERICANS want. Part of the problem with the left is that a small number of people with power in politics, in the media, or who have wealth think they know what's best for the "simple-minded masses". Like it or not this country is finally standing up and expressing through their vote what they want. And that's the way it should be.

The original Tea Party or the modern Tea Party?

Please make sure you reference which one. It gets to be a bit confusing to us who seem to be naive.

I'm also very happy to learn that now Americans have understood the meaning of "voting for what they want" Just took, what 220 years.

Thanks!

[GuyFawkes38]

I thought it was a little odd that there hasn't been an extensive account of her recovery.

This article today provides that:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/04/24/20110424gabrielle-giffords-medical-condition.html

Here's part of it:


In the early days at TIRR, nurse Poteet says, Giffords said something else: "What is happening to me?" - a phrase she repeated over and over.

It was a good phrase, doctors told the usual crew of family, friends and staffers gathered in Giffords' room. It meant she had become aware of herself and of her limitations.

There were hopeful language signs even on the March day that Giffords learned about the people killed on Jan. 8. She had been told there were more bullets, Kelly says, but she didn't yet know that there were deaths. He was reading aloud to her from the New York Times - a story about Giffords herself. She followed with her eyes over his shoulder, noticed that he skipped a paragraph, and grabbed the paper out of his hand. He hadn't realized how well she could read.

The paragraph told of six dead, many more wounded. Kelly comforted Giffords while she cried. Her grief spread over days and weeks.

"So many people, so many people," Giffords repeated.

Her nurse Poteet would find Giffords with heavy looks on her face, repeating "no-no-no-no-no."

"She was thinking of it like she couldn't believe it," Poteet says. "She kept saying, 'I want so bad,' and she was trying to talk about it. But it was too many thoughts in one."

For that reason, Kelly hasn't told Giffords that the shooting victims included her friends and colleagues Gabe Zimmerman and Judge John Roll, or a 9-year-old girl, and three others, the kind of older constituents she loves to help.

That news will spark a wave of complex, layered questions, and Kelly wants her to be able to process the emotions without fighting so hard for the words.


And that is why I'm in favor of the death penalty.

[Porkopolis]

I thought it was a little odd that there hasn't been an extensive account of her recovery.

Sadly that is the way of the 24 hour news cycle. Once a story is no longer the hot new topic it is discarded no matter how remarkable it might be.

[GoMuskies]

Katie Couric is talking to her space husband at some point this week on the CBS Evening News.

[bourbonman]

Katie Couric is talking to her space husband at some point this week on the CBS Evening News.

And here's a reliable news source.