Butler

[xudash]

Butler's game attendance was 6,825 for the banner hanging event. That is flat out embarrassing. Then again, Butler considers itself a mid-major so it may as well act like one.

Butler's margin for error, as far as its basketball program goes is as thin as a razor. It's budget is too small - middling by A10 standards - and a combination of losing Stevens, at some point, and IU coming back will begin the process of squeezing them.

From a strategic/business point of view, Butler doesn't look attractive as a prospective conference mate for the long term. They have a solid resume and last year's run was commendable - certainly a solid ROI given my point about resources - but sustainability is the issue with them.

Championship Game and they can only put 7k'ish in the stands? Damn.

And allow me to pro-actively shoot down a comment that I trust will be forthcoming: Their attendance is better than many A10............. WHO CARES, THAT ISN'T RELEVANT TO ULTIMATELY IDENTIFYING THE RIGHT MIX OF SCHOOLS IF THINGS CHANGE.

[waggy]

Temple may even have worse attendance Dash. Is Temple not considered a great program? Butler has been good/great for a long long time. Frankly, it's more important how many people will stop and watch on TV than it is how many sit in the stands, and Butler carries some weight in that area in my opinion.

[Masterofreality]

Let us not forget Coach T "Steal" ripping recruits out of the State of Indiana like they were husks of corn.

[xudash]

Temple may even have worse attendance Dash. Is Temple not considered a great program? Butler has been good/great for a long long time. Frankly, it's more important how many people will stop and watch on TV than it is how many sit in the stands, and Butler carries some weight in that area in my opinion.

waggy, I'm looking at this from a "strategic/business point of view" and not from a performance point of view. I also noted that it wasn't necessary to note lacking attendance figures owned by other A10 programs. Otherwise, I can't imagine that general television viewers could be that substantial if the fan base that cares about the program the most won't even fill up their building on a consistent basis, especially on a specific night where they're celebrating an F4 banner. That is truly embarrassing.

In fact, you are helping me make my point. I agree that Butler has been "good/solid" for a long time now, and I would be proud of all of it were I a Butler fan. However, I would also be concerned about the program's overall potential. I don't know what Butler's building holds, but I do know that it is north of 10k. They're not exactly demonstrating that they have the elasticity to grow much.

Is this attendance news important? Absolutely. Gate receipts, TV appeal, etc. The ability to build a Cintas Center and sell seat licensing and suits, etc. Xavier's program has the Forbes ranking, the Learfield deal and the Nike deal because, as a program, it has established itself at a high level. I have no doubt that we'll continue to succeed and that a F4 is in our near future through the A10 or something hopefully better. It's the difference between being well positioned for sustainability and being in a position of not having much room for error.

Butler can continue to dominate the HL, assuming Stevens sticks around for a while, or assuming he leaves and they find a way to reload. They just wouldn't be high on my list for potential conference mates, unless they really step up their commitment.

It's a simple, telling point: to only have less than 7k show up for as special event as hanging that banner demonstrates small-time to me. Yes, they've done well on the court and they draw better than more than a few A10 teams, but their hoops budget is too small and their attendance isn't remotely close to the kinds of teams we would want to hook up with should change occur.

[wkrq59]

One more thing in support of Dash.
Xavier really had no chance to reach or even hope to reach national prominence until it left the MCC and joined the A10. Look at Xavier today---reputation as a MAJOR basketball program on a national stage, playing against big-time competition in a league that while far from perfect offers a chance to earn an NCAA tournament berth each year and to advance in that tournament once we make it.
That reputation has earned Xavier the consideration of four and five star recruits and has each year provided the program with a chance to attract players like Justin Martin, Jay Canty, Jordan Latham, and before them Brad, Kenny, Tu and Dante. And does anyone even think Xavier would have a chance at Desmine Wells, Dee Davis and Jalen Reynolds, and 2012 Devontes Smith-Revera. and to even be considered by Elijah Macon, Jeremy Hollowell, A.J. Hammons, Rodney Purvis and Gary Harris?
I'm not saying Xavier has passed Butler, but re facilities Xavier surely has. Re national exposure Xavier has. Point is, it would be a step backwards to pull Butler into the A10 or whatever conference would be forthcoming from a crazy reshuffling. As a perfect example, I cite University of Evansville. Once with Xavier a kingpin in the MCC, now in the MVC. How many NCAA tournaments have they been to?
I have nothing against UE (Xavier leads in the series between the two schools 25-14) but I use them as an example of the leap Xavier has made and the relative static of both UE and Butler. Also IMHO that the Horizon (nee MCC) League is a step below the MVC and the MAC.
Point, Xavier can not afford to take any backward steps.:eek:

[waggy]

I wouldn't mind being in the same conference as them. I'd still want it to have at least a 50% east coast exposure, but Butler has proven to me at least that they will never totally suck.

I think a substantially better conference situation for X is not going to happen. Slightly improved? Maybe, but Providence, Seton Hall, St. Johns... They are buoyed right now by their association with the BCS moniker. Take that away and they lose luster imo, and maybe some resolve internally. X will never get into the BCS hybrid either. The A10 hasn't held X back much if at all. We can get there from here. What more is necessary?

[xubrew]

wow. that could possibly be the most narrow, incomplete and non-money-making agenda oriented examination of revenue that i have ever seen.

you wanna read a really piss poor examination of butler's POTENTIAL in regards to revenue?? two years ago, butler didn't even have 4000 fans at their first game. this year, they more than doubled that. butler doubles their attendance in season openers every two years!! in six years, they'll be selling out lucas oil stadium!!!
yeah, i'd say that comes close to matching how narrow the initial examination was...but not quite.

you wanna read an examination that is even more piss poor about how butler does NOT have potential in regards to revenue?? scroll up.


there are 31 div1 conferences, and NONE of them share the revenue off of ticket sales. in other words, whatever tickets butler doesn't sell is their loss, not the league's. from a strategic/business point of view, it is stupid to even consider ticket sales at home games.

you want to know what revenue source you should consider?? television. butler is on it all the time. they have thirteen games on NATIONAL television. not local satellite affiliates, but NATIONAL television. that is not counting the bracket buster, which will almost assuredly make it fourteen. that is four more games than xavier, and that comes without the aid of an intriguing national schedule. you know what that means?? butler IS THE INTRIGUE!!! not their opponents. that is more money and more exposure for the conference. from a business/strategic point of view, they're worth adding for that reason alone.

you want to hear another revenue source that should be considered?? tournament games played. butler's success has been sustained. since 2003, they've been to five ncaa tournaments, and only worn the visiting jerseys in the first round once, which means they have the respect of the selection committtee. they've also been to three sweet sixteens and one national title game, which brings up the issue of tournament revenue sharing. they have generated tons of it, and have demonstrated that it is a norm for them to do so. because tournament revenue is shared within the conference, adding them makes great business sense.

butler's ticket sales are trending up, not down. they've already sold more than they ever have before, and it is only mid-november. but that isn't even relevant from a business point of view, because they don't share that with the conference.

i don't live anywhere close to cincinnati or indianapolis. the brand name of butler is far more recognizable and marketable than any team in the atlantic ten, including xavier. adding them makes great business sense.

anyone that thinks butler is bad for business is either a complete moron or a fan that so jaded they can't get over it. in dash's case, i'm going to go with the latter. the mere suggestion that butler would not be an asset to any conference is completely assinine.

i know people don't like butler, but don't say that they wouldn't be an asset. just keep it simple and say you don't like them. they would be a HUGE asset, financially, and otherwise....

[GuyFawkes38]

wow, 6,825????!!!!!

I'm sure Butler is very proud of their TV schedule. And they have every right to be. But Butler's average attendance does have a serious impact on revenue.

I know they've struggled for a while now to put up the meager funds necessary to modestly remodel Hinkle (sort of a catch-22 thing....remodeling Hinkle would help with attendance, but they need more funds from increased attendance to remodel it)..

[Muskie1000]

So you're saying having Butler with us in a league is a step back? A step back from what? They bring in more exposure than most of the teams in our current league. They have more in attendance than at least half of the teams in our league. And bringing the Richmond Spiders in was a step up. I have nothing against Richmond and slowly they have been improving... but they had much less to bring to the table when they joined the A-10. I think you bring a team like Butler in, they would just continue to go up and increase exposure for any league.

[Juice]

So you're saying having Butler with us in a league is a step back? A step back from what? They bring in more exposure than most of the teams in our current league. They have more in attendance than at least half of the teams in our league. And bringing the Richmond Spiders in was a step up. I have nothing against Richmond and slowly they have been improving... but they had much less to bring to the table when they joined the A-10. I think you bring a team like Butler in, they would just continue to go up and increase exposure for any league.

If say the A-10 loses SLU to another conference (based on their whining about the distances they have to travel) or Charlotte to the CUSA (based on them getting football) does the A-10 offer Butler a spot and does Butler accept it?

I personally think its a perfect fit. It's a better conference for them, they don't have 1-A football, and though they would be far from a lot of schoools, it is not as far as SLU is. Unless they like being the single big dog in a conference.

[xubrew]

wow, 6,825????!!!!!

I'm sure Butler is very proud of their TV schedule. And they have every right to be. But Butler's average attendance does have a serious impact on revenue.

I know they've struggled for a while now to put up the meager funds necessary to modestly remodel Hinkle (sort of a catch-22 thing....remodeling Hinkle would help with attendance, but they need more funds from increased attendance to remodel it)..

it has ZERO impact on revenue. none whatsoever. revenue from ticket sales is not shared revenue. xavier is not making any money for the atlantic ten when they sell out the cintas center. they're simply making money for themselves. they're not sharing it with the conference.

[ballyhoohoo]

I could care less how many people watcha team play, I was teams in the A10 that will make us better by playing them, elevate the A10 in the vision of the slection committee and media by scheduling tough and winning non con games. Butler (even though they cheat) do that.

speaking to attendance, I was at IU last night, ASSembly hall was only 2/3 full but they still have passionate fans and man that place gets loud.

[Xman95]

it has ZERO impact on revenue. none whatsoever. revenue from ticket sales is not shared revenue. xavier is not making any money for the atlantic ten when they sell out the cintas center. they're simply making money for themselves. they're not sharing it with the conference.

Good point. Xavier's ticket revenue does nothing for the rest of the A-10.

However, if Xavier isn't making money off the Cintas tickets it would mean there's less that they can put back into the program. So, if that revenue stream suffers, the program could suffer as well. If this were the case it would obviously have a negative effect on the conference.

[xudash]

Where to begin:

1. Shared ticket revenue.

"there are 31 div1 conferences, and NONE of them share the revenue off of ticket sales. in other words, whatever tickets butler doesn't sell is their loss, not the league's. from a strategic/business point of view, it is stupid to even consider ticket sales at home games."

That stupid thought, as you put it, addresses the program's overall ability to generate revenue. That isn't stupid. If you don't understand that, I can't help you. Worse yet - for Butler - they have little to know seat licensing and no suits, etc. to market. I was going to let it go with the FACT that their attendance figure for that game and event was embarrassing, but, you managed to motivate me to point out the other key problem with their ability to generate critical revenue from gate receipts. BTW, who on God's earth said anything about gate receipts being shared with conference members?

2. Butler trend line for attendance:

"you wanna read a really piss poor examination of butler's POTENTIAL in regards to revenue?? two years ago, butler didn't even have 4000 fans at their first game. this year, they more than doubled that. butler doubles their attendance in season openers every two years!! in six years, they'll be selling out lucas oil stadium!!!"

Oh, sure they will. They've been good for a while now - since at least 2003 as you put it. Seven years into the mission, at least, with last year's run and they draw less than 7 grand to hang a banner, with some healthy part of that number being students. Sure, they'll sellout Lucas Oil Stadium in six years.

3. Exactly where you don't understand what you're yelling about.

"butler's ticket sales are trending up, not down. they've already sold more than they ever have before, and it is only mid-november. but that isn't even relevant from a business point of view, because they don't share that with the conference."

Explain to me how any source of program revenue isn't relevant, especially for a member of a conference that doesn't take a large conference distribution.

4. The classic anecdotal line
"i don't live anywhere close to cincinnati or indianapolis. the brand name of butler is far more recognizable and marketable than any team in the atlantic ten, including xavier."

Well then it must be the case, because you have written it as fact.

5. One or the other, or not

"anyone that thinks butler is bad for business is either a complete moron or a fan that so jaded they can't get over it. in dash's case, i'm going to go with the latter. the mere suggestion that butler would not be an asset to any conference is completely assinine."

I don't consider myself a moron, so I'll rule that one out. I do envy Butler's run - certainly wish it would have been X; we certainly helped them to get there by exhausting ourselves and K-State along the way - but I don't envy Butler's program as compared to that of Xavier.

In summary, it was a pretty easy post to make, but I'll add a couple facts and a little perspective:

1. The attendance figure for that very special event was embarrassing and there is no other way to look at it if you care to look at it from the vantage point of how major programs would handle such a thing, period, end of story.

2. Butler has issues with attendance. Their fans have discussed the issue openly. A couple years ago, they were fretting about the effect on attendance of raised ticket prices, and that's just raised ticket prices, not licensing, etc. (at least that was my quick read of the situation; again, I don't believe they have seat licensing in their building). If you feel compelled to suggest that Butler is going to be selling out Lucas Oil in 6 years, that is your business.

3. Butler's basketball budget was something less than $2mm last year. I believe they may have just raised it - to something around a little over $2mm.

SO, what all this means is that Butler has an excellent program and has found a way to dominate the HL the way that we came to dominate the MCC. Butler, with a little luck with its coaching, like any other program, including our program, can certainly continue to rack up success and national recognition by doing what they've been doing.

HOWEVER, if we are talking about aligning with them at some point, and if that alignment is based on a vision for a MAJOR conference make-up outside of so-called BCS schools, THEN they'll have to make some adjustments. They'll have to increase their hoops budget - remember that they have the added pressure of fielding football. Increasing their hoops budget will require, dare I mention it, more revenue, which, low and behold, will have to come, at least in part, to some moronic degree, from gate receipts, which we'll insist they don't share with anyone, since that isn't done today.

[GoMuskies]

With all their limitations (and Butler does have some), I would trade them for Fordham yesterday (actually, I wish we had made that trade 14 years ago).

And I do agree with 'dash in that Butler is fine, and is set up to do just fine going forward, but they do not have the infrastructure ready to compete at the same level as the Xaviers and Gonzagas of the non-power conference world long-term.

[kyxu]

And I do agree with 'dash in that Butler is fine, and is set up to do just fine going forward, but they do not have the infrastructure ready to compete at the same level as the Xaviers and Gonzagas of the non-power conference world long-term.

I guess I see the merit in this thought process, but winning can do a lot for a program. We can talk about all the pieces that go into place -- administratively and athletically -- for making a Final Four run and competing for a national championship, and we can talk about how our program is building on this, yet despite Butler's "infrastructure", they just went out and did it. They may not pack the house for their games, but they're not George Mason. They've put up a lot of wins over the past few years and are more than just one magical run.

We can all talk about the means to the end, but Butler has reached that end. I don't see their success as short-lived by any stretch. There's more than one way to succeed in college basketball, and possibly Butler is doing it a different way.

[xubrew]

dash, you completely missed the point of my lucas oil stadium comment. i even said that it was a stupid outlook to have. actually, the phrase i used was "piss poor examination." it is not my assertion that they would actually do it. it was just to demonstrate how ridiculous a conclusion you can come to if you look at things so narrowly. they won't sell out lucas oil stadium...ever. but, to imply that they would not an asset to the overall conference revenue is equally as insane as saying that they'll sell out lucas field for their season opener.

after pointing out their attendance, you said this...


From a strategic/business point of view, Butler doesn't look attractive as a prospective conference mate for the long term

that is just completely crazy. from a strategic/business point of view, the money made off the ncaa tournament and television is way more of an asset than poor attendance in november is a detriment. poor attendance in november (or at any point) doesn't even have a direct impact on the overall conference revenue. last year off of the tournament alone they made close to $7.5 million for their conference. that doesn't even begin to include any of their television money. from a strategic/business point of view that looks VERY attractive. all the teams in the atlantic ten put together didn't make that much for the league . they are regulars in the ncaa tournament, regulars in the top 25, and regulars on tv. all of that generates revenue for the conference. i honestly don't see how anyone could look at them and not see what an asset they would be from both a financial and competitive standpoint.

[GoMuskies]

I guess I see the merit in this thought process, but winning can do a lot for a program. We can talk about all the pieces that go into place -- administratively and athletically -- for making a Final Four run and competing for a national championship, and we can talk about how our program is building on this, yet despite Butler's "infrastructure", they just went out and did it. They may not pack the house for their games, but they're not George Mason. They've put up a lot of wins over the past few years and are more than just one magical run.

We can all talk about the means to the end, but Butler has reached that end. I don't see their success as short-lived by any stretch. There's more than one way to succeed in college basketball, and possibly Butler is doing it a different way.

Butler has obviously done well and capitalized on their opportunities. I just feel a lot more comfortable about Xavier's and Gonzaga's ability to continue to compete at a high level over the long term than I do about Butler's. And a lot of that has to do with the "infrastructure" that won't go away with one or two bad seasons (like Butler's current goodwill).

[wkrq59]

With all their limitations (and Butler does have some), I would trade them for Fordham yesterday (actually, I wish we had made that trade 14 years ago).
And I do agree with 'dash in that Butler is fine, and is set up to do just fine going forward, but they do not have the infrastructure ready to compete at the same level as the Xaviers and Gonzagas of the non-power conference world long-term.

Go,
Very little chance the A10 will trade or even consider trading Fordham for Butler. Yes, Fordham has been told by the A10 powers (whoever the hell they are)? to upgrade their budget and provide a competitive program. But the A10 will not move from the TV market potential and reality that Fordham holds. It won't happen.
There may be many compelling reasons for bringing Butler into the A10, but I can't think of one that would counter balance the image loss for such a move. A one game visit to the Final Four and national title game does not eliminate the stigma of being a bracket buster or a mid-major. Look how long it took Xavier to shed it.
And having that low attendance for the hanging of a national runner-up performance in the NCAA finals does even less for the image of the school and the Horizon League (nee MCC).
Simply put forget Butler. Think any number of schools before Butler.
:logo::shield::sword:

[GoMuskies]

If the A-10 admin thinks Fordham being in the conference is a net positive, they're even dumber than I already imagine them being.

[Kahns Krazy]

Butler is in better shape today than X was when X joined the conference. I'm not sure why their attendance lags, but they certainly have more potential than the bottom rungs of the A-10 ladder. Adding Butler would be an improvement to the conference.

[GuyFawkes38]

]Butler is in better shape today than X was when X joined the conference. I'm not sure why their attendance lags, but they certainly have more potential than the bottom rungs of the A-10 ladder. Adding Butler would be an improvement to the conference.

Butler is definitely in better shape now than X was in terms of success on the court.

But when X joined the A10 their attendance was better and X was beginning the long and ambitious process of building a new arena (might be part of the reason why the A10 jumped for SLU instead of Butler).

Yes, attendance doesn't directly affect the conference. But I have a bad feeling about a school which has experienced a lot of success in the past 10 years having such average attendance figures and not being able to put up modest cash to remodel their dilapidated stadium.

What happens if Butler hires a couple bad coaches? Will attendance drop back in the 3,000 range?

That all being said, I would love to lock Butler into our schedule for the next 5 years. If only they could become a short term member.

[xudash]

............................that is just completely crazy. from a strategic/business point of view, the money made off the ncaa tournament and television is way more of an asset than poor attendance in november is a detriment. poor attendance in november (or at any point) doesn't even have a direct impact on the overall conference revenue. last year off of the tournament alone they made close to $7.5 million for their conference. that doesn't even begin to include any of their television money. from a strategic/business point of view that looks VERY attractive. all the teams in the atlantic ten put together didn't make that much for the league . they are regulars in the ncaa tournament, regulars in the top 25, and regulars on tv. all of that generates revenue for the conference. i honestly don't see how anyone could look at them and not see what an asset they would be from both a financial and competitive standpoint.

brew, I believe if you look up Butler's attendance figures FOR THE ENTIRE SEASON you will find that they average approx. 7k+. That's for the season; not just November. I don't care how that compares to any existing A10 program. It doesn't matter. It is a suspect level of performance, especially given what they've achieved over the last decade. I can't help you if you don't recognize that reality, and I certainly can't help you if you don't understand the effect that has on Butler's budget.

I'll have to ask you to explain the $7.5 million figure you pitched above to me. The tournament includes a unit earning scale: for each game a team plays up to the finals it earns one “unit.” A team that makes it to the finals earns five units. In all, 126 units are awarded each year, and each unit is roughly worth $220k. They didn't earn that much for this one tournament, and their cumulative units aren't sufficient to get them to $7.5 million, so, again, you need to explain that figure.

Otherwise, I believe your logic is simply off. You are arguing on behalf of their accomplishments as they exist and have been generated VIA THEIR EXISTING LEAGUE AFFILIATION. They would not come into the A10 and own it the way they own the crappy HL.

That gets me back to my point - again. Butler has a great program. There is no denying that; there is no reason for me, personally, to deny that. In fact, I've noted on more than one occasion that their ROI in basketball has been extraordinary. The problem with Butler - the problem you are having - is that you are extrapolating Butler's success in the HL to what it you think it would be in the A10.

In my opinion, in order for them to come in and be positioned to BE SUCCESSFUL AND SUSTAIN THAT SUCCESS IN THE FACE OF STIFFER COMPETITION, Butler's budget would have to be increased. If they were to be admitted and then not adjust their budget, they would be in the lower end of the A10 in terms of financial commitment. Perhaps they could make that work for a while, but I doubt they could make it work long-term.

Their fan support is suspect, period. I can argue, on your behalf, that their attendance may improve if they replace, as examples, Cleveland State with Temple and Valpo with Xavier. Nonetheless, it is suspect "as-is" and they certainly haven't followed Xavier's trend line in growing attendance over the years.

I was truly rather shocked to see the attendance figure for their banner hanging evening. It reminded me that any future conference arrangement for Xavier that could involve Butler would have to be handled with caution. They may be a slam dunk in the HL, but that doesn't mean they would automatically be a slam dunk in the A10, given that their program is run at a mid-major level

[DoubleD86]

Otherwise, I believe your logic is simply off. You are arguing on behalf of their accomplishments as they exist and have been generated VIA THEIR EXISTING LEAGUE AFFILIATION. They would not come into the A10 and own it the way they own the crappy HL.

That gets me back to my point - again. Butler has a great program. There is no denying that; there is no reason for me, personally, to deny that. In fact, I've noted on more than one occasion that their ROI in basketball has been extraordinary. The problem with Butler - the problem you are having - is that you are extrapolating Butler's success in the HL to what it you think it would be in the A10.

In my opinion, in order for them to come in and be positioned to BE SUCCESSFUL AND SUSTAIN THAT SUCCESS IN THE FACE OF STIFFER COMPETITION, Butler's budget would have to be increased. If they were to be admitted and then not adjust their budget, they would be in the lower end of the A10 in terms of financial commitment. Perhaps they could make that work for a while, but I doubt they could make it work long-term.

Couldn't it also be argued that the increased revenue that Butler would receive from being in the Atlantic-10 would allow Butler to then improve their budget and build off of that base that they would be bringing with them?

Frankly, what you are saying about Butler could be said about Xavier moving to a conference such as the Big East, yet many believe that with the move we could continue to grow and succeed and that would be reinvested in the BBall program to continue to develop the success. So why can't the same be said for Butler? The problem I have is you are looking at Butler as it is now in the Horizon League and ignoring any changes that could be created by a move to a more prestigious conference. Sure, you say IF they improve, but you then act as if it is impossible. With entrance into the A-10, it is likely attendance goes up (both traveling fans and better schedule), the conference sharing they would receive would also increase. Due to these two factors alone could lead to an increased budget for the basketball program. If you take Butler + A-10 improvements + budget increases that would then be possible (yes I know they are assumed but I believe it would happen) I think you get an obviously beneficial conference partner. I just don't see any way they don't either improve the A-10 or serve as a valuable conference member when we move on.

[Kahns Krazy]

brew, I believe if you look up Butler's attendance figures FOR THE ENTIRE SEASON you will find that they average approx. 7k+. That's for the season; not just November. I don't care how that compares to any existing A10 program. It doesn't matter. It is a suspect level of performance, especially given what they've achieved over the last decade. I can't help you if you don't recognize that reality, and I certainly can't help you if you don't understand the effect that has on Butler's budget.

I'll have to ask you to explain the $7.5 million figure you pitched above to me. The tournament includes a unit earning scale: for each game a team plays up to the finals it earns one “unit.” A team that makes it to the finals earns five units. In all, 126 units are awarded each year, and each unit is roughly worth $220k. They didn't earn that much for this one tournament, and their cumulative units aren't sufficient to get them to $7.5 million, so, again, you need to explain that figure.
....

Their fan support is suspect, period. I can argue, on your behalf, that their attendance may improve if they replace, as examples, Cleveland State with Temple and Valpo with Xavier. Nonetheless, it is suspect "as-is" and they certainly haven't followed Xavier's trend line in growing attendance over the years.
...

1) What team with better attendance would you suggest over Butler?
2) I think the units pay out for more than just one year. I'd have to look into it more, but you're suggesting that a championship game appearance is worth just $1.1 million? I don't think that's right.
3) You could probably find some stats that show that Butler is growing their attendnace more than X is, primarily because X is near capacity.

[xudash]

Couldn't it also be argued that the increased revenue that Butler would receive from being in the Atlantic-10 would allow Butler to then improve their budget and build off of that base that they would be bringing with them?

Frankly, what you are saying about Butler could be said about Xavier moving to a conference such as the Big East, yet many believe that with the move we could continue to grow and succeed and that would be reinvested in the BBall program to continue to develop the success. So why can't the same be said for Butler? The problem I have is you are looking at Butler as it is now in the Horizon League and ignoring any changes that could be created by a move to a more prestigious conference. Sure, you say IF they improve, but you then act as if it is impossible. With entrance into the A-10, it is likely attendance goes up (both traveling fans and better schedule), the conference sharing they would receive would also increase. Due to these two factors alone could lead to an increased budget for the basketball program. If you take Butler + A-10 improvements + budget increases that would then be possible (yes I know they are assumed but I believe it would happen) I think you get an obviously beneficial conference partner. I just don't see any way they don't either improve the A-10 or serve as a valuable conference member when we move on.

I don't recall "acting" one way or another. I expressed a concern about their budget, having originally expressed a concern about their attendance.

In fact, In my prior post I mentioned that attendance could - should - improve with an upgrade in conference.

That leaves budget. And based on the same logic, I believe it could be as you wrote it: that increased revenue could be applied towards the budget. Good and fair point.

The concern remains would it be enough, given that their budget is approx. $2mm now and given that they field football, and given that they seem to operate comfortably the way they're positioned now: top dog in a true mid-major league.

Also keep in mind that, in addition to increased budget pressure, they would have a multi-million dollar down-stroke facing them in order to gain acceptance to the A10.

I get that Butler would be better than a number of existing programs that soil the A10 now, assuming Butler could come into the league and do well, which they certainly would be positioned to do now and for at least a couple/few years to come. That isn't debatable.

The issue is would they have the wherewithal to sustain that success, assuming they would be willing to make the increased financial commitment to a stronger league.

And don't compare Butler moving to the A10 with Xavier moving to the BE. Xavier can make the BE jump financially without a problem. We have one of the most financially valuable collegiate hoops programs in the nation. Those seat licenses, suit revenue, etc., etc. make for a very different revenue model for Xavier. The Forbes ranking actually is meaningful. And Xavier doesn't carry football.

[xudash]

1) What team with better attendance would you suggest over Butler?
2) I think the units pay out for more than just one year. I'd have to look into it more, but you're suggesting that a championship game appearance is worth just $1.1 million? I don't think that's right.
3) You could probably find some stats that show that Butler is growing their attendnace more than X is, primarily because X is near capacity.

1. I"m not suggesting any team over Butler at this point. Sustainability is a big factor with me; not what things look like right now. It's about - hopefully at some point it's about an opportunity for Xavier to be a part of a high-major non-BCS hoops league. That means facilities, budgets, etc. SUSTAINED for continuing success. Combine that with good coaching staffs and some luck and any program having all those elements in place should be in the picture on a consistent basis. Does Butler look good right now? Absolutely. Might they trip up if their coach leaves? Probably at a higher risk of that happening because of their league and the level of their existing commitment to the sport.

2. I mentioned the cumulative units point in my post - you are right about the fact that cumulative units are part of the picture, but I'll have to go back to see how that works, unless someone beats me to it here. Otherwise, what I typed for the number of units per tournament and the average value per unit is correct. Perhaps brew's $7.5 million figure is the go-forward value of the cumulative units from their run this year, but I can't say for sure that that is the case.

3. How? Butler has been good for a long time and they're still bubbling along at less than 8k. We had the Gardens rocking by the early 90's didn't we - pre A10, etc.

[xubrew]

I'll have to ask you to explain the $7.5 million figure you pitched above to me. The tournament includes a unit earning scale: for each game a team plays up to the finals it earns one “unit.” A team that makes it to the finals earns five units. In all, 126 units are awarded each year, and each unit is roughly worth $220k. They didn't earn that much for this one tournament, and their cumulative units aren't sufficient to get them to $7.5 million, so, again, you need to explain that figure.

multiply the units by six. it's not $7.5 million all at once. you get it over the course of six y ears. essentially, each tournament game generates $1.2 million over the course of six years.


Otherwise, I believe your logic is simply off. You are arguing on behalf of their accomplishments as they exist and have been generated VIA THEIR EXISTING LEAGUE AFFILIATION. They would not come into the A10 and own it the way they own the crappy HL.

another way to look at it is that the horizon league handcuffs them more than it helps them. i don't think they'd own the atlantic ten, but i do think they'd bring more of a spotlight to it.

let me say this....i'm sorry that i spouted off like i was on a drunken rant in some bar. to be honest, i was on a drunken rant. i should have just stated it like this....

butler does have attendance issues. to be honest, i'm actually NOT shocked by the 7k fans at the first game. however, from a business perspective, that does not directly effect the conference. the things that do, such as tv and tournament revenue, butler has generated more of than anyone else in recent years. butler vs xavier, butler vs dayton, butler vs temple, butler vs richomond, etc, would become marketable tv games for the league. i can't think of anyone else that would bring as much to the table as they would that isn't already happily affiliated. MAYBE western kentucky, but that is largely due to the fact that they have their own tv contract that is similiar to xavier, and even then i think butler is way ahead of them.

[GoMuskies]

I'd LOVE to have Fordham and LaSalle fall away and Butler and WKU join. I think WKU would be a better addition. 'brew thinks Butler would be a better addition. It sure would be nice if we could find out who's right!

[xubrew]

I'd LOVE to have Fordham and LaSalle fall away and Butler and WKU join. I think WKU would be a better addition. 'brew thinks Butler would be a better addition. It sure would be nice if we could find out who's right!

how about this?? split the league in half and just add two more teams. the atlantic ten is bloated as it is.

xavier, dayton, slu, butler, wku, richmond, temple, saint joe's, and one other a-10 team (really don't care who).

i'm a much bigger fan of the hybrid model than i am the bloated model. nine teams, sixteen conference games, eight home-and-homes, decent travel partners (which helps the non-revenue sports) marketable tv, and the potential for some really good tournament revenue. four of those nine teams made the ncaa tournament, and i think that a reasonable expecation is that half the league makes the dance. i'm in favor.

it won't ever happen, but i'm in favor.

[xudash]

multiply the units by six. it's not $7.5 million all at once. you get it over the course of six y ears. essentially, each tournament game generates $1.2 million over the course of six years.



another way to look at it is that the horizon league handcuffs them more than it helps them. i don't think they'd own the atlantic ten, but i do think they'd bring more of a spotlight to it.

let me say this....i'm sorry that i spouted off like i was on a drunken rant in some bar. to be honest, i was on a drunken rant. i should have just stated it like this....

butler does have attendance issues. to be honest, i'm actually NOT shocked by the 7k fans at the first game. however, from a business perspective, that does not directly effect the conference. the things that do, such as tv and tournament revenue, butler has generated more of than anyone else in recent years. butler vs xavier, butler vs dayton, butler vs temple, butler vs richomond, etc, would become marketable tv games for the league. i can't think of anyone else that would bring as much to the table as they would that isn't already happily affiliated. MAYBE western kentucky, but that is largely due to the fact that they have their own tv contract that is similiar to xavier, and even then i think butler is way ahead of them.

Thank you for your response.

We're either in disagreement about "business perspective" or you are missing my point. By my way of thinking, the sum is only as good as the strength of each of its parts - in this case parts = programs. A program's strength can be evaluated on the following key criteria:


Administrative support
Administrative talent
Strong coaching
Facilities
Budget - full major commitment to recruiting budgets, private charters, etc.
Then the above breeds winning: - NCAA success, Conference success, etc.
And that breeds fan support, tradition, etc.
Which bring along TV Appeal


They're interconnected, but discreet enough to be evaluated and measured on their own.

With my focus being on "A HIGH MAJOR NON-BCS MIX" and not the A10, per se, I believe Butler rates out well in all but the attendance and budget categories. An average of less than 8k in home attendance, especially given all Butler has achieved, and a budget of about $2mm for basketball is at least cause for concern.

It isn't "no damn way do they belong"; it's about cause for concern. Were they to decide to move up, they would understand the need for an increased commitment and respond accordingly, and I suspect additional attendance would follow. But make no mistake about it, Butler's attendance and the configuration of its facility (i.e. ticket sales only; no seat licensing, suits, etc.) affects its overall budget, which affects its ability to sustain its competitiveness within the conference.

As everything stands today, Butler would certainly be a great addition to the A10, especially if the A10 could lose LaSalle in the process. I still believe Butler would have to increase its commitment to sustain its competitive level. The NCAA Tournament that sits at the end of the conference season obviously is the same, but the road to get there through the A10 is much different than the road through the HL.

On that note, I'll say thanks again for your response, and once again shut down my "contributions" to the land of conference mate conjecture.

[xubrew]

it's kind of hard to argue for butler after last night. the game was borderlined unwatchable. i'm glad i wasn't watching in real time because by the second half i couldn't take it anymore and just sped through most of it.

i know that ugly basketball is a staple of games played prior to thanksgiving......but that was UGLY basketball. louisville looked athletic, but not all that cohesive and overall mediocre at best, and they blew out butler.

...and for the record, i don't think it set butler's program back at all, but my god that was a crappy game. people all over america were undoubtedly changing the station.

[CinciX12]

Enjoy that week you were ranked biatches. You looked very average last night.

Granted we looked below average, but still. Screw Butler.

[Muskie]

Enjoy that week you were ranked biatches. You looked very average last night.

Granted we looked below average, but still. Screw Butler.

Probably should mind our own house first? We haven't played well.

[xudash]

As a side note, I don't understand why they kept fouling when it was essentially over.

It got to the point where the Louisville crowd got increasingly pissed off about it and were booing loudly after each succeeding foul took place.

[CinciX12]

Probably should mind our own house first? We haven't played well.

I said we looked worse?