Singapore: Awesome or Barbaric [Archive]

GoMuskies

10-21-2010, 02:08 PM

XUglow

10-21-2010, 02:14 PM

I have friends that live in Singapore, and they love it. If you don't do bad things, you have no need to fear the authorities. Period.

boozehound

10-21-2010, 02:20 PM

I have a relative that has spent a fair amount of time in Singapore and they said it was pretty nice. You know what not to do, and you don't do it, and you are fine.

It's funny how in America we talk about how the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime, but it seems to be working in Singapore.

PM Thor

10-21-2010, 02:24 PM

My fiancee' recently visited Singapore, and she said it was beautiful and pretty awesome. Only problem was that the pack of gum I slipped into her luggage did not go over well at their customs.

I HATE dayton.

Kahns Krazy

10-21-2010, 02:46 PM

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/fsu-seminoles/os-kamari-charlton-fsu-caning-singapore,0,5865307.story

On the one hand, they have basically no crime and maybe the highest standard of living in the world. On the other hand, they summarily execute drug traffickers and cane for petty vandalism.

Not sure I want the USA to be like Singapore, but I do think this is awesome:

"Earlier this year, Oliver Fricker of Switzerland was sentenced to five months in jail and three cane strokes for breaking into a train depot with an accomplice and spray painting subway cars.

Fricker later appealed his sentence and a judge added two months to his jail term."

That is freakin awesome. I would love if the appeals process in this country carried the risk of a potential increased punishment.

I had a high school health teacher that used this philosophy. If you felt you had a question incorrectly scored, he was willing to review it, but he would also review every other question as well, and you could well wind up with a lower score.

smileyy

10-21-2010, 05:02 PM

If you don't do bad things, you have no need to fear the authorities. Period.

Well, that's the first step on the way down to authoritarianism.

Woodburn

10-21-2010, 05:29 PM

I would love if the appeals process in this country carried the risk of a potential increased punishment.

In criminal matters, it does (at least in Indiana).

Snipe

10-21-2010, 07:02 PM

Cleanest place in the world. When you cane people and whip their ass for littering, people get the message quick. Then you virtually never have to worry about litter again.

Great point about the death penalty being an actual deterrent Booze. Right on target there.

Killing people for pot is extreme, but if you know the rules don't play that game I guess. It is their country.

When I was in Japan our high school played in an international basketball tournament in Hong Kong. The story came through that an American was caught with some pot at the Singapore American School. The dropped everything and took him to the air base and took him out on a military jet. Right after the Jet took off and they left Singapore airspace the American Embassy offered an apology for the incident and reported the crime.

Some American family would have had there school child in jail or dead were it not for some fast thinking. It would have been a diplomatic nightmare. My parents used to search all of our luggage to make sure we weren't smuggling pot. I had never ever seen pot at the time, but they were paranoid as hell. In Japan they lock you up and deport you and you can never come back again. My mom told me a million times that if I got caught with pot they would shave my head, put me in jail for six months and then my father would lose his job.

Tough laws do work. I am not sure I want to live in that type of society, but it does show you what strict enforcement would do. There are trade offs. I wouldn't mind if we caned people for littering today. That is one law I do like. Spray paint ~ Cane his ass! Littering ~ Cane his ass. It would clean up this town quick. I wonder what the cost of littering is to society.

boozehound

10-21-2010, 07:06 PM

OK. Who's the hippie who voted barbaric???

Snipe

10-21-2010, 07:16 PM

This is just for the city of Baltimore (http://www.cleanergreenerbaltimore.com/cleaner/costOfLitter.aspx):

http://www.cleanergreenerbaltimore.com/images/cleanerCostbanner.png

Litter is not only ugly, it’s expensive. The Bureau of Solid Waste spends more than $5,000,000* annually on litter clean up.

How much does litter clean up really cost?

A $1,000 dollar clean up can purchase:

City Services:
181 pothole repairs
6 Police Officers on patrol for one, eight-hour shift

Resources:
100 flu vaccines
2 new public trash cans

Parks:
100 park bench repairs
29 trees
5 ball field repairs

Schools:
53 school textbooks
Playground Equipment:
50 adult swings
16 baby swings

Help us keep Baltimore clean – call 311 and report littered sites.

*This figure does not include the costs incurred by other agencies of the City including those associated with water contamination, soil contamination and other threats to public health such as rodent infestation.

Not only could you save a boatload of money, the quality of life would shoot up. Something civilized about a clean place.

Broken Windows

The broken windows theory of urban environments says that taking care of things like broken windows and litter actually has an impact on crime.

One broken window encourages kids to break more if it doesn't get repaired. When people see litter on the street they are more likely to throw some down themselves. When criminals enter a neighborhood and see broken windows and litter the get the feeling that this is a place that they can do business because nobody cares.

I have been organizing street cleanups and picking up litter for years. My wife once got stuck with a needle picking up a napkin. Their wasn't enough blood in it to test for HIV. She took one month of the HIV drug because they say it can help after the initital injection if the needle was HIV positive. The emergency room was hundreds. The clinical tests were hundreds. The HIV drug was around $1,500 for one month. Man did picking up litter that day set us back thousands!

I hate litter. I say Cane those sons of bitches!

It also made me think about the company that charges $1,500 a month for AIDS medication. The last thing they want to see is a cure for AIDS. If they had one and were greedy, they would wait until their patent ran out. What a perverse incentive. I think we should offer a $10 billion dollar reward for anyone who comes up with a cure for AIDS.

X-band '01

10-21-2010, 07:41 PM

I remember some kid from the Dayton area wound up on the national news stations for a couple of weeks in the mid-90s because he was accused and later convicted of vandalism (spray-painting) while in Singapore. He was sentenced to be flogged and, after several days of negotiations, he ended up being flogged anyway. (One of the funny products that David Letterman pitched as a result of this was Caning Strength Bufferin.)

It sounds harsh, but you've got to familiarize yourself with local laws if you're going abroad.

GoMuskies

10-21-2010, 07:55 PM

T I think we should offer a $10 billion dollar reward for anyone who comes up with a cure for AIDS.

If any company finds a cure for AIDS, that patent will definitely be worth $10 billion. So I believe the market has already set that bounty.

GoMuskies

10-21-2010, 07:56 PM

Porkopolis and smileyy should be caned.

Porkopolis

10-21-2010, 09:22 PM

Porkopolis and smileyy should be caned.

Oooh, that sounds kind of fun...nevermind, Singapore is awesome.
:cool:

bourbonman

10-21-2010, 09:24 PM

The dude should have been caned in the states for his treatment of women here. What is it with sports figures and girls?

coasterville95

10-22-2010, 08:41 AM

Kahns Krazy

10-22-2010, 10:20 AM

A $1,000 dollar clean up can purchase:

City Services:
181 pothole repairs
6 Police Officers on patrol for one, eight-hour shift

Uh, shenanigans.

The fully loaded cost of pothole repairs in Boston is $5.52?
The fully loaded cost of police officers in Boston averages $20.83 per hour?

The City of Boston 2011 police budget is $270,000,000. The projected staffing is 2,171 police officers. Municipal operating budgets exclude capital items like police cars, communications networks, etc, so even the $270m number isn't truly fully loaded. I can't really even tell if that budget includes healthcare and pensions, or if those are handled separately in the municipal budget. Even at that rate though, the average cost to put a police officer on the street for 1 hour is about $60. More if you want him to have a radio and a car.

Snipe

10-22-2010, 10:28 AM

More from Singapore -

Overstay your 90 day toursit visa, prepare to take your swats. We have another American in line to be flogged in Singapore.

Of course, per the article, he may not be a role model - he is also charged with other nice things like phone scams and the like while over there.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/10/22/1886058/singapore-charges-american-over.html

As a friend of mine used to say "A few laws, strictly enforced...."

(And in my experience, countries do check to see if you have overstayed your welcome, its not that hard, when they apply the exit stamp in your passport, they place it right next to the entry stamp, a quick glance can tell them what they need to know)

Cane people for being here illegally. Sign me up for that one too. That and litter enforcement could literally clean things up.

Uh, shenanigans.

The fully loaded cost of pothole repairs in Boston is $5.52?
The fully loaded cost of police officers in Boston averages $20.83 per hour?

The City of Boston 2011 police budget is $270,000,000. The projected staffing is 2,171 police officers. Municipal operating budgets exclude capital items like police cars, communications networks, etc, so even the $270m number isn't truly fully loaded. I can't really even tell if that budget includes healthcare and pensions, or if those are handled separately in the municipal budget. Even at that rate though, the average cost to put a police officer on the street for 1 hour is about $60. More if you want him to have a radio and a car.

I didn't really check out the stats, I just googled and put up the City of Balitomore's propaganda effort. Had I realized they played fast and loose with facts and were pushing propaganda I wouldn't have posted it. I guess I should always assume that.

boozehound

10-22-2010, 10:36 AM

More from Singapore -

Overstay your 90 day toursit visa, prepare to take your swats. We have another American in line to be flogged in Singapore.

Of course, per the article, he may not be a role model - he is also charged with other nice things like phone scams and the like while over there.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/10/22/1886058/singapore-charges-american-over.html

As a friend of mine used to say "A few laws, strictly enforced...."

(And in my experience, countries do check to see if you have overstayed your welcome, its not that hard, when they apply the exit stamp in your passport, they place it right next to the entry stamp, a quick glance can tell them what they need to know)

I don't understand why you would leave the U.S. to commit a crime in Singapore. Talk about stupid. If I was going to a foreign country, particularly a country with strict laws, I would make it a point to familiarize myself with the laws prior to going over there, so that I did not accidentally get myself in trouble.

It's kind of like the Americans they always have on that "Locked up Abroad" show that end up agreeing to smuggle drugs out of foreign countries that have notoriously strict drug policies. It becomes difficult to feel sorry for them.

Kahns Krazy

10-22-2010, 11:04 AM

I didn't really check out the stats, I just googled and put up the City of Balitomore's propaganda effort. Had I realized they played fast and loose with facts and were pushing propaganda I wouldn't have posted it. I guess I should always assume that.

I didn't think it was yours. I'm always amazed how loose people play with numbers when they are verifiable. I guess it's because the vast majority of people never question numbers.

coasterville95

10-22-2010, 11:18 AM

I don't have my passport with me right now - but I think it has a clause somewhere in the fine print that says something to the effect that you are subject to the laws of whatever nation you choose to visit.

It's one of those common sense things that seems to have gone to the wayside.

Regarding cleanliness - I just got back a few weeks ago from visiting, amongst other things, the Oktoberfest in Munich. One of the things i noted was how clean the grounds were desipte the number of people.

(Maybe I need to take this over to the Beer thread, seeing as I had 11 different beers over in Europe this time around.)

ETA: But Kahn's didn't you know that 86% of statistics are made up, and that number dramatically increases when told via an internet forum? It is pretty bad when a little simple math and common sense reveal you are loking at Shinola.

Snipe

10-22-2010, 11:29 AM

Regarding cleanliness - I just got back a few weeks ago from visiting, amongst other things, the Oktoberfest in Munich. One of the things i noted was how clean the grounds were desipte the number of people.

Go to a Tea Party rally and check it out after the people leave. I went to a rally in Washington with hundreds of thousands of people. We left the place spotless.

Our mostly catholic SAY Soccer league my kids play in has probably over a thousand people on the Armleader fields every weekend. Teams bring halftime fruit snacks, and treats and drinks for after the game. After the last game on the fields on Sunday the fields are spotless. Nobody has left anything. All that trash has been taken home. Nobody has to clean up and when people show up for practice the next day the fields are good as new and ready to go.

It is about culture, upbringing and good breeding.

coasterville95

10-22-2010, 02:49 PM

Go to a Tea Party rally and check it out after the people leave. I went to a rally in Washington with hundreds of thousands of people. We left the place spotless.

Our mostly catholic SAY Soccer league my kids play in has probably over a thousand people on the Armleader fields every weekend. Teams bring halftime fruit snacks, and treats and drinks for after the game. After the last game on the fields on Sunday the fields are spotless. Nobody has left anything. All that trash has been taken home. Nobody has to clean up and when people show up for practice the next day the fields are good as new and ready to go.

It is about culture, upbringing and good breeding.

Absolutely its about upbringing, which is what saddens me when I see certain parts of our land so badly littered on a routine basis that at first you think maybe the garbase truck had an accident and dumped some of its load.

XUglow

10-22-2010, 03:09 PM

Well, that's the first step on the way down to authoritarianism.

Being a good person is a step towards authoritarianism? How so?

smileyy

10-22-2010, 03:49 PM

Being a good person is a step towards authoritarianism? How so?

My comment was in response to:

If you don't do bad things, you have no need to fear the authorities. Period.

The attitude behind that comment runs contrary to the spirit of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. If you don't have anything to hide, why don't you mind if the police search your house every day?

We might be talking about slightly different things here -- public acts vs. private -- but the notion that the authorities are something to be feared by the general public is not a society I want to live in.

Edit: I'll take that back -- we should live in fear of the authorities. That is, constant fear that they shall overstep their bounds. And we should keep vigilant that they do not, and restrain them if they do.

Kahns Krazy

10-22-2010, 04:16 PM

http://sharetv.org/images/guide/358882.jpg

It's simple. The mediators pick one punishment zone per day. Since nobody knows where that punishment zone will be, nobody risks death.

XUglow

10-22-2010, 05:24 PM

My comment was in response to:

The attitude behind that comment runs contrary to the spirit of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. If you don't have anything to hide, why don't you mind if the police search your house every day?

We might be talking about slightly different things here -- public acts vs. private -- but the notion that the authorities are something to be feared by the general public is not a society I want to live in.

Edit: I'll take that back -- we should live in fear of the authorities. That is, constant fear that they shall overstep their bounds. And we should keep vigilant that they do not, and restrain them if they do.

What a stretch. What attitude is there behind the statement that there is zero chance of getting in trouble if you don't do anything wrong. If I have a piece of trash, I put it in a waste bin. I do that here. I would do that if I were in Singapore. I would have no concerns about the punishment applied to litterbugs because I am not a litterbug. They don't randomly assess littering punishment here or in Singapore.

Porkopolis

10-22-2010, 07:26 PM

What a stretch. What attitude is there behind the statement that there is zero chance of getting in trouble if you don't do anything wrong. If I have a piece of trash, I put it in a waste bin. I do that here. I would do that if I were in Singapore. I would have no concerns about the punishment applied to litterbugs because I am not a litterbug. They don't randomly assess littering punishment here or in Singapore.

The point being made by smileyy is not a stretch at all. In an authoritarian society you are only one givernment decision away from being "bad." It is very easy to support policies that fit your values; it is a different matter entirely when someone decides your values are wrong.

BandAid

10-22-2010, 09:18 PM

Porkopolis

10-22-2010, 09:30 PM

Then don't move to Singapore...crisis averted.

I think that kind of misses the point smileyy made. Unless you are saying those in Singapore don't deserve the same rights as human beings everywhere?

chico

10-22-2010, 10:17 PM

I think that kind of misses the point smileyy made. Unless you are saying those in Singapore don't deserve the same rights as human beings everywhere?

I am reminded of the words of Plato, or maybe Sammy Davis, Jr., who said "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

I must admit I do not keep up on the happenings in Singapore but I do not see many people seeking asylum here based on any violation of human rights. The folks there seem to be okay with the laws they way they are.

Porkopolis

10-23-2010, 07:23 AM

I am reminded of the words of Plato, or maybe Sammy Davis, Jr., who said "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

I must admit I do not keep up on the happenings in Singapore but I do not see many people seeking asylum here based on any violation of human rights. The folks there seem to be okay with the laws they way they are.

Statements like that are why I am terrified for the future of my country. Our constitution exists to protect the people from the government; do you not believe everyone is entitled to such protections? Or are Americans somehow special? Our system is based on the belief the the creator has endowed all men with certain inalienable rights, but I guess that idea is no longer fashionable. All men would include those born in another country. When we start deciding some folks deserve protection and others don't, we are setting ourselves up for totalitarianism. Americans used to try to spread our values...unfortunately I fear we still do but the values have changed.

XUglow

10-23-2010, 07:45 AM

The point being made by smileyy is not a stretch at all. In an authoritarian society you are only one givernment decision away from being "bad." It is very easy to support policies that fit your values; it is a different matter entirely when someone decides your values are wrong.

Here is why it is a stretch. I am talking about reality. I gave an account of how my friends that actually live in Singapore view things. The reality is that Singapore is a good place to live. They invest in their people because the people are their only major asset. For example, 20% of their GDP is invested in education. By contrast, 2% of the US GDP is invested in education. It is clean, safe, and people are happy.

The technical term for what you guys are doing is "making shit up." You don't know anything about Singapore other than their no-nonsense approach to punishment of crimes, and you are extrapolating this tiny amount of knowledge into making Singapore something that it is not.

Porkopolis

10-23-2010, 07:54 AM

Here is why it is a stretch. I am talking about reality. I gave an account of how my friends that actually live in Singapore view things. The reality is that Singapore is a good place to live. They invest in their people because the people are their only major asset. For example, 20% of their GDP is invested in education. By contrast, 2% of the US GDP is invested in education. It is clean, safe, and people are happy.

The technical term for what you guys are doing is "making shit up." You don't know anything about Singapore other than their no-nonsense approach to punishment of crimes, and you are extrapolating this tiny amount of knowledge into making Singapore something that it is not.

I am not saying Singapore is bad; I am saying that the situation is such that totalitarian oppression could easily sprout. Let me give you an example of a "civilized" nation where this happened. I am of English ancestry, and am a protestant. I assume most on this board to be catholic. At one time my supposedly freedom loving ancestors decided, you know, those silly catholics don't deserve any rights. That was reality and thousands of people were killed for their beliefs. It has been repeated time and again throughout history and will be again because so many like you are willing to say "but everything is fine right now." The first step in resisting authoritarianism is constant vigilance against any chipping away of liberty, however small it may seem at the time. Today's anti-litter law is tomorrow's anti-christian law.

BandAid

10-23-2010, 09:48 AM

The description of the persecution of Catholics in Victorian England actually reinforces the statements that others have said in this thread. Some Catholics moved away, many apostatized, a lot went underground, and then there were few who boldly fought the power, and they paid for it with their lives. They still chose what their fates may be. Just like how litterers and pot-dealers in Singapore choose what could be their potential fates. Sts. Edmund Campion and John Southwell in England decided it was worth getting quartered and hanged for God and the Church. The apostates decided it was not. Litterers in Singapore decide it is worth getting caned so they can throw garbage on the ground. Most others decide it is not.

pizza delivery

10-23-2010, 12:45 PM

I would change the poll to

-Effective!

-Barbaric

1.
bar·bar·ic/bärˈbarik/Adjective
1. Savagely cruel; exceedingly brutal.
2. Primitive; unsophisticated. More »
Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary

►
It is barbaric. The only awesome part about it is how effective fear of punishment is. Another example I've heard of is the DUI laws in Germany. They love beer, but you are screwed if you drink and drive there. Now, not FLOGGED screwed, but you're sorry for sure.

pizza delivery

10-23-2010, 12:56 PM

Here you go Snipe, out here in Washington:

http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/roads/images/litter%20control/litter10.jpg

chico

10-24-2010, 02:34 PM

Statements like that are why I am terrified for the future of my country. Our constitution exists to protect the people from the government; do you not believe everyone is entitled to such protections? Or are Americans somehow special? Our system is based on the belief the the creator has endowed all men with certain inalienable rights, but I guess that idea is no longer fashionable. All men would include those born in another country. When we start deciding some folks deserve protection and others don't, we are setting ourselves up for totalitarianism. Americans used to try to spread our values...unfortunately I fear we still do but the values have changed.

I'm not sure where I said people should be denied rights. What I did say is that if a crime is committed then expect to be punished for it. Now, you may want to argue on cruel and unusual punishment grounds if you like, but your argument abut unalienable rights really doesn't make sense. Do you expect the US to impose its will on every nation that does not follow our form of government? Was it then fine to invade Iraq because of its long and storied history of abuse? What do we do - ask people nicely to change their ways if we don't like them, or force countries to adopt a democratic form of government?

Also, like I said, I do not hear any outcry from the people of Singapore to change their way of government. If they are fine with it, who are we to go change it. Isn't that a fairly arrogant view?

Porkopolis

10-24-2010, 04:30 PM

NM. Time for me to bow out of this one.

Snipe

10-24-2010, 05:23 PM

I am not sure it is a human rights issue. I tend to side with Chico. It is their country and none of our business. You couldn't kill people for pot here. I wouldn't want those rules. I think we should legalize it anyway. But Singapore isn't my country so I don't have a say. It does show you how effective a tight ship can be if you enforce the rules of society.

Imagine if you got transferred to Singapore and enrolled your child at the American school. He just turned 18 and got caught with a half ounce of pot. You might not like the Singapore system as much as the poll results if that happened to your kid. You have to wonder what the police are thinking when they bust someone. Am I going to take someone's life away?

Drug trafficking
Narcotics laws established by the Misuse of Drugs Act are very strict.

Anyone caught with more than or equal to 2 g of heroin or 15 g of cannabis faces mandatory capital punishment, as they are deemed to be trafficking in these substances. The stated quantities are the net weight of the substances after they have been isolated by laboratory analysis. Between 1991 and 2004, 400 people were hanged in Singapore, mostly for drug trafficking, one of the highest per-capita execution rates in the world.

"Mandatory Capital Punishment" does mean that they kill you for 15 grams of pot.

Like I said, I would hate to be a policeman and catch some young person with 15g of pot. I don't think I would be able to turn him in. And that might make me worthy of "Mandatory Capital Punishment". You have to think that kids from connected or well established families would have more of a chance at getting a pass, and people that are viewed as undesirable would be strictly enforced. You also wouldn't want to piss off the police, as planting 15g of pot on your person would be enough for a death sentence.

So no, I wouldn't want to live in that society. Maybe visit, but not live. That is just a bit too much for me.

But what about caning for trash and vandalism? I love the thought of that. Try to perfect it so you don't paralyze them but give them a good swift kick in the ass. I would be all over that. If parents don't teach their children basic civilized values than maybe the cane should. Cane for litter. Cane for spray-paint. Cane for overstaying your Visa or sneaking into the country. Cane for being a Dayton fan. My list goes on and on. Break out the cane!

I don't think that you would have to cane too many of them. Put it on TV and people would get the picturce real quick.

I always wondered if you made a fake movie about ramping up border enforcement. If you showed US soldiers policing the border and firing weapons and showed body bags coming back to Mexico I bet you could cut the illegal immigration without ever even firing a shot.

PM Thor

10-27-2010, 02:12 AM

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs286.snc3/27971_388571213434_674368434_4229890_5316397_n.jpg

I HATE dayton.

pizza delivery

10-27-2010, 03:30 PM

Here you go Snipe, out here in Washington:

http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/roads/images/litter%20control/litter10.jpg

The point is, Snipe, you don't have to actually wound people.

Amendment 8 - Cruel and Unusual Punishment. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

C'mon people!

Kahns Krazy

10-27-2010, 03:36 PM

I get sidetracked a lot when I read Pizza Delivery's posts because I'm thinking about ordering a pizza.

Snipe

10-27-2010, 05:53 PM

The point is, Snipe, you don't have to actually wound people.

C'mon people!

They used to tar and feather people. "Cruel and unusual punishment" and its meaning may have changed over time. Now we have to give prisoners cable tv and an excersize room.

pizza delivery

10-27-2010, 06:39 PM

They used to tar and feather people. "Cruel and unusual punishment" and its meaning may have changed over time. Now we have to give prisoners cable tv and an excersize room.

In a world where littering a coke can on the ground can get your back eviscerated, what then is "cruel and unusual"? Pouring acid in one's eyes? Driving a stake through one's forearm?

BandAid

10-27-2010, 06:59 PM

I just want to point out that you are superimposing a United States law upon a different nation and culture...

And I know my last statement could lead to a number of forseeable rebuttals:

What about the Nazis, that was a different culture, should we not have imposed on them?

But on the other hand:

What about Iraq, that was a different culture, should we have imposed on them?

Obviously one of the two we should have imposed on and other we shouldn't have (and please let us not have a back and forth on the legitimacy of the Iraq war). So what should and can we do (if anything) about Singapore's caning of literers? Just throwing it out there...

GuyFawkes38

10-27-2010, 07:33 PM

A dutch worker in Singapore was arrested and executed for possession of pot in the mid 90's. This via the NYtimes:

The family released a copy of the bluntly worded telegram that they received from Singapore prison officials last week: "Death sentence passed on Johannes Van Damme will be carried into effect on 23.9.94. Visit him on 20.9.94. Claim body on 23.9.94. Signed Superintendent, Changi Prison, Singapore."

I'm surprised by the poll result on this thread. Do posters really not find Singapore a little barbaric?

Snipe

10-27-2010, 07:40 PM

Obviously one of the two we should have imposed on and other we shouldn't have (and please let us not have a back and forth on the legitimacy of the Iraq war). So what should and can we do (if anything) about Singapore's caning of literers? Just throwing it out there...

Can I use the tactic in arguments in the future? I really like the dictatorial style.

I am obviously right on all my points, it is obvious (and please no back and forth the matter is settled).

I think the Iraq occupation cost way too much money. Taking out Sadaam wasn't all bad. I could think of an alternate history where he is allowed to remain in power where things don't go so well.

We didn't have to be in WWII either. We could have given up on imperialism in the Phillipines and left Asia. We could have not cut off Japan's supply of oil. They wouldn't have attacked us if we stayed friendly. Same with Hitler and the Germans. We didn't have to be involved if we didn't want too. We didn't go to war because Hitler was putting Jews in concentration camps either, and we set up some concentration camps ourselves.

Would the world have been that much worse if we didn't enter WWII? Communism shut off the eastern block and the Soviet Union after WWII, and Communism shut off China. Those communist regimes killed more people than Hitler ever did. Hitler would have crushed communism. Would the Axis powers be able to control all of their gains? It seems like they bit off more than they could chew anyway.

Alternate histories are both fun and useless. We did what we did and we had our reasons.

Snipe

10-27-2010, 07:45 PM

A dutch worker in Singapore was arrested and executed for possession of pot in the mid 90's. This via the NYtimes:

I'm surprised by the poll result on this thread. Do you people really not find Singapore a little barbaric?

I didn't vote in the poll because I have mixed feelings. I like the idea of canning people for littering. I don't think that have to do it often. The threat is quite a deterent. As for the death penalty for pot I would not sign on in support of that but it is their country.

Singapore has demographic problems. Their women barely have over 1 child these days. That is well below replacement rate. A demographic bomb is going to go off all over the world.