Reds Postseason Thread

[gladdenguy]

I have never been this jacked up over a team outside of Xavier.
Tomorrow and Friday I'm going to go to the gym BEFORE work I will be so excited.
During Xavier runs I find myself watching Hoosiers.....this week I started last night watching For Love of the Game (some of you will think thats feminine...I love it).

I will watch the 30 for 30 "Four Days in October" tonight then the baseball playoffs officially begin tomorrow.
LETS GO REDLEGS!!!!!!
Every ESPN analyst picked the Phillies in 3, 4, or 5 games.
Underdogs? So what......steal one in Philly and its on.
October baseball back in Cincinnati......hold on.

[Masterofreality]

Cleanse the Filthys!!!!!!!!

[XU 87]

During Xavier runs I find myself watching Hoosiers.

"Now boys, don't get caught watchin' the paint dry."

[Lamont Sanford]

I'm sure xeus will be watching Glee and High School Musical 2 - 17 in preparation of the first postseason baseball in fifteen years and the first time over .500 in ten seasons.

[Kahns Krazy]

Every ESPN analyst picked the Phillies in 3, 4, or 5 games.
Underdogs? So what......steal one in Philly and its on.


My recollection of the 1990 series with Oakland was that the consensus pick was Oakland in 5. I'm pretty sure that one turned out well for us.

Gametime Sunday is at 7, I hear.

Downtown is going to be freakin crazy on Sunday.

[Lamont Sanford]

Downtown is going to be freakin crazy on Sunday.

Will the streetcar be running between both PBS and GABP?

[cutterX]

Redlegs need to come out and punch Philly in the nose in game 1 much like the 90 team did to the A's in the WS. If that happens they can win this frickin' thing.

Kahn's how reliable a source do you have on gametime? I got a lot going on Sunday and need to know asap to do some rearrangin'

[drudy23]

Redlegs need to come out and punch Philly in the nose in game 1 much like the 90 team did to the A's in the WS. If that happens they can win this frickin' thing.

Kahn's how reliable a source do you have on gametime? I got a lot going on Sunday and need to know asap to do some rearrangin'

THESE ARE OFFICIAL

Wednesday, 5:07 p.m. (TBS)

Friday, 6:07 p.m. (TBS)

Sunday, 7:07 p.m. (TNT) or 8:07 p.m. (TBS), Reds play at 8:07 if Yankees-Twins series ends in three games

Monday, 5:07 p.m. If necessary, TBS (moves to 7:37 if Giants-Braves series ends in three games)

Wednesday, 6:07 p.m. If necessary, TBS (moves to 8:07 if Giants-Braves series ends in four games)

[cutterX]

Thanks for the info Drudy.
I like Volquez to lock down the Philly hitters and the Reds manufacture a couple runs against Halladay to win 2-1

[Nigel Tufnel]

I obviously want the Reds to win, but from my personal perspective, I feel like the Reds are playing with house money at this point. At this point, the Reds need to go out loose, play their hearts out and see what happens.

I like the fact that each starter really only needs to pitch 5 solid innings. After that, the Reds bullpen looks pretty solid. You could get an inning out of Wood (especially against the Phillies), Chapman (again good matchup), Rhodes, Masset and...gulp, The Arm Dangler.

Lets Go REDS!!

[Juice]

I obviously want the Reds to win, but from my personal perspective, I feel like the Reds are playing with house money at this point. At this point, the Reds need to go out loose, play their hearts out and see what happens.

I like the fact that each starter really only needs to pitch 5 solid innings. After that, the Reds bullpen looks pretty solid. You could get an inning out of Wood (especially against the Phillies), Chapman (again good matchup), Rhodes, Masset and...gulp, The Arm Dangler.

Lets Go REDS!!

Fangraphs advocated for Dusty to tell Volquez to pitch at 100% the entire game and then use Homer or Wood in the 6th and 7th and then use Rhodes, Chapman, and Cordero in the 8th and 9th depending on the situation.

They backed this up by saying that the Reds could then use more pinch hitters as well. It was very unconventional but it made a lot of sense.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/nlds-game-one-preview-cincinnati/

[More Cowbell]

Skyline Chili offers free Cheese Coneys in honor of first Cincinnati Reds playoff game

On Wednesday, October 6, Skyline Chili will help Cincinnati Reds fans celebrate the team’s first trip to the playoffs since 1995. All Reds fans who wear their spirit gear (hats, jerseys, outwear, pins, etc.) to their local Skyline chili will receive a free cheese coney with menu purchase.

http://local.cincinnati.com/share/news/story.aspx?sid=172107&cid=100226

[dc_x]

Fangraphs advocated for Dusty to tell Volquez to pitch at 100% the entire game and then use Homer or Wood in the 6th and 7th and then use Rhodes, Chapman, and Cordero in the 8th and 9th depending on the situation.

They backed this up by saying that the Reds could then use more pinch hitters as well. It was very unconventional but it made a lot of sense.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/nlds-game-one-preview-cincinnati/

Makes sense. The Reds advantage is depth. We have a deeper bench and deeper bullpen. Might as well use that advantage and limit pitcher at bats.

[Smooth]

Quote:
Skyline Chili offers free Cheese Coneys in honor of first Cincinnati Reds playoff game

On Wednesday, October 6, Skyline Chili will help Cincinnati Reds fans celebrate the team’s first trip to the playoffs since 1995. All Reds fans who wear their spirit gear (hats, jerseys, outwear, pins, etc.) to their local Skyline chili will receive a free cheese coney with menu purchase.
http://local.cincinnati.com/share/ne...107&cid=100226

How much does a menu cost?

[Masterofreality]

Opening Post Season Game-

No Hitter by Roy Halladay.

That puts a damper on the enthusiasm.

It's still only one loss, however.

[X-band '01]

I'd love to think it's just one loss, but having an off day tomorrow ain't gonna help. First no-no in the postseason in 54 years. Yikes.

[PM Thor]

I want to be upset as a Reds fan, but the baseball fan in me is overruling that feeling. I just witnessed baseball history, saw every pitch. No one is going to remember the first game of a division series, but historically EVERYONE is going to remember the no hitter. Only the second one in 140 years. I'm glad I saw it, never will forget it. Incredible.

I HATE dayton.

[gladdenguy]

I'm so glad Xavier University doesn't include the word "Cincinnati"

[Kahns Krazy]

I want to be upset as a Reds fan, but the baseball fan in me is overruling that feeling. I just witnessed baseball history, saw every pitch. No one is going to remember the first game of a division series, but historically EVERYONE is going to remember the no hitter. Only the second one in 140 years. I'm glad I saw it, never will forget it. Incredible.

I HATE dayton.

Are you kidding me? The Reds just put up the 2nd worst post-season offensive output ever and you're glad you saw it? Weirdo. That was embarrassing.

[Porkopolis]

Are you kidding me? The Reds just put up the 2nd worst post-season offensive output ever and you're glad you saw it? Weirdo. That was embarrassing.

I have to say I agree with PM Thor. It sucks as a Reds fan but as a baseball fan I feel privileged to have watched Halladay's gem. That is the type of performance that comes along once in a generation; no lineup in baseball would have scored on him tonight.

[XU 87]

I'm a little upset the Reds lost. But that was probably the greatest pitched game I've ever watched. Halladay got ahead of just about every batter and hit corner after corner. Then when he got ahead he would throw breakng pitches out of the strike zone, which the Reds would swing at because the pitches started in the strike zone. He had the hitters guessing all game. The Reds had no chance today.

Luckily, they only get one win.

[PM Thor]

Are you kidding me? The Reds just put up the 2nd worst post-season offensive output ever and you're glad you saw it? Weirdo. That was embarrassing.

Give me a break. The Reds offense is statistically the best in the NL, but ran up against the best pitcher in the league, probably the best pitcher in years.

I'm in no way embarassed by the Reds tonight. No one could have hit him. And yeah, I'm glad I saw it because it was a moment in sports history that will most likely not happen again for a half century or so...

I HATE dayton.

[GoMuskies]

I want to be upset as a Reds fan, but the baseball fan in me is overruling that feeling. I just witnessed baseball history, saw every pitch. No one is going to remember the first game of a division series, but historically EVERYONE is going to remember the no hitter. Only the second one in 140 years. I'm glad I saw it, never will forget it. Incredible.

I HATE dayton.

Gross

[THRILLHOUSE]

I'm disappointed, but the 1976 Reds wouldn't have fared much better today. Like Dusty said, Roy was dealin' out there. This was the game I wanted since I don't have a lot of faith in Bronson vs. the Philly left handed bats. Luckily it still only counts as one loss, hope they can put it behind them and steal game 2.

[AdamtheFlyer]

Changed by eating habits a few weeks ago. One of the main principals was no beer. I was perfectly fine with it...until tonight. I could use about 14. Halladay was amazing and I'm sure some day I will look back and understand what it means, but that day is not today. I just want to pout and drink, and I can't do the latter.

[XU 87]

[QUOTE=AdamtheFlyer;214537]Changed by eating habits a few weeks ago. One of the main principals was no beer.
[QUOTE]

Gross

[CinciX12]

Mild depression...

[Pete Delkus]

Thome palying for Minn.
Sabathia playing for NY
Lee playing for the Rangers
Chuck managing the Phils

fast forward to 2014
Votto playing for the Red Sox
Bruce playing for the White Sox
Phillips playing for the Dogers
Cueto playing for the Yankees


MLB baseball...Hell yea I'm jaded!
Oswalt and Hammels next.

Baseball...Yea!
Fun!

[GuyFawkes38]

Mike and Mike on ESPN just made this point. And I've been thinking about it since yesterday.

Shouldn't there be more no hitters in the playoffs (Halladay made it only 2)? The weather is cool. Most team are coming off a break. It seems natural (of course, this year, even more so).

Reds fans can take comfort in the fact the Phillies hitting wasn't too spectacular. Pitching is taking over in the MLB.

[Masterofreality]

Thome palying for Minn.
Sabathia playing for NY
Lee playing for the Rangers
Chuck managing the Phils

fast forward to 2014
Votto playing for the Red Sox
Bruce playing for the White Sox
Phillips playing for the Dogers
Cueto playing for the Yankees


MLB baseball...Hell yea I'm jaded!
Oswalt and Hammels next.

Baseball...Yea!
Fun!

What he said, plus.....

......According to B-Espn and Fox, there are only two teams worthy to be televised in the regular season- Yankees and Red Sox. Everyone else doesn't exist.

[Juice]

Mike and Mike on ESPN just made this point. And I've been thinking about it since yesterday.

Shouldn't there be more no hitters in the playoffs (Halladay made it only 2)? The weather is cool. Most team are coming off a break. It seems natural (of course, this year, even more so).

Reds fans can take comfort in the fact the Phillies hitting wasn't too spectacular. Pitching is taking over in the MLB.

USA Today had an article yesterday talking about how pitchers' numbers improve in the playoffs. It obviously didn't talk about no hitters or perfect games but I think it is similar to what you are saying.

[drudy23]

Dude was hitting all four corners with all four pitches. You got the feeling after about the 2nd or 3rd inning that Roy was going to be pretty untouchable.

FYI...Cabrera blaming the ump....SUPER WEAK

[DC Muskie]

I want to be upset as a Reds fan, but the baseball fan in me is overruling that feeling. I just witnessed baseball history, saw every pitch. No one is going to remember the first game of a division series, but historically EVERYONE is going to remember the no hitter. Only the second one in 140 years. I'm glad I saw it, never will forget it. Incredible.

I HATE dayton.


I have to say I agree with PM Thor. It sucks as a Reds fan but as a baseball fan I feel privileged to have watched Halladay's gem. That is the type of performance that comes along once in a generation; no lineup in baseball would have scored on him tonight.


WHAT THE HELL IS WITH REDS FANS????!!!!!


Holy Mary Mother of God people.

[xsteve1]

Dude was hitting all four corners with all four pitches. You got the feeling after about the 2nd or 3rd inning that Roy was going to be pretty untouchable.

FYI...Cabrera blaming the ump....SUPER WEAK

If Cabrera would have thrown to first in the second inning the phillies also wouldn't have gotten those 3 addittional two out runs which changed the entire complex of the game.

[XU 87]

If Cabrera would have thrown to first in the second inning the phillies also wouldn't have gotten those 3 addittional two out runs which changed the entire complex of the game.

True. And I wonder if Halladay would have pitched a little bit differently if the score was
1-0 as opposed to 4-0. Maybe, just maybe, he would have gotten a little tight.

[GoMuskies]

If Cabrera would have thrown to first in the second inning the phillies also wouldn't have gotten those 3 addittional two out runs which changed the entire complex of the game.

By the same token, Volquez would have stayed in the game and continued to take his beating. So the Phillies would have added on sooner or later anyway.

[Porkopolis]

WHAT THE HELL IS WITH REDS FANS????!!!!!


Holy Mary Mother of God people.

<climbs on elitist high horse> I am a diehard Reds fan, but I'm a baseball fan first. This isn't football, where the mouth breathers scream "we're great, you suck!" to the sheeple next to them. Baseball is different than other sports. To a lot of us it is damn near a religion. But I digress. <climbs off of elitist highhorse>

[XU 87]

By the same token, Volquez would have stayed in the game and continued to take his beating. So the Phillies would have added on sooner or later anyway.

Maybe, maybe not. But he should have been out of the 2nd. That said, after Cabrera's bad play, Volquez gave up a hit to the pitcher, a walk, and then gave up a 3-2 hit.

[Porkopolis]

Maybe, maybe not. But the he should have been out of the 2nd. That said, after Cabrera's bad play, Volquez gave up a hit to the pitcher, a walk, and then gave up a 3-2 hit.

Volquez was beyond awful last night. You could see it from the moment he took the mound. He is either on or off. The reds gambled and lost. As it turns out, it really didn't matter. Anything short of a shutout would have been a loss.

[xsteve1]

By the same token, Volquez would have stayed in the game and continued to take his beating. So the Phillies would have added on sooner or later anyway.

Dusty may still have pulled Volquez anyway as you could tell he didn't have it yesterday as the Phil's would've had Utley and Howard coming up the following inning.
The Phil's shouldn't have even gotten that run in the first if Volquez had his head in the game.
On the bright side the Phillies weren't too impressive at the plate yeaterday either.

[XU 87]

WHAT THE HELL IS WITH REDS FANS????!!!!!


Holy Mary Mother of God people.

Sometimes you can watch a game, be disappointed your team lost, but think, "We lost. But that was one helluva a game I just saw." After this game, a few people thought, "It sucks we lost, but that was a historic game I just saw."

[Cheesehead]

Sometimes you can watch a game, be disapointed your team lost, but think, "We lost. But that was one helluva a game I just saw." After this game, a few people thought, "It sucks we lost, but that was a historic game I just saw."


Your're wasting your time w/ DC. Logic isn't used. However, I agree with what you are saying. Halladay is a stud. 2 no-hitters in one year with one being is his first playoff game ever. Impressive. Now I wait for DC to call me a pussy.

[Kahns Krazy]

Give me a break. The Reds offense is statistically the best in the NL, but ran up against the best pitcher in the league, probably the best pitcher in years.

I'm in no way embarassed by the Reds tonight. No one could have hit him. And yeah, I'm glad I saw it because it was a moment in sports history that will most likely not happen again for a half century or so...

I HATE dayton.

You're in no way embarrassed? Our starting pitcher for the first post season appearance in 15 years got run in less than 2 innings after failing to get a career .123 hitting pitcher out? Dusty says in an in-game interview that he's going to tell his batters to be more aggressive on the first pitch, and Hallady comes out the next inning staying away from the strike zone with his first pitch? Ondrusek damn near throws a ball into the stands on an easy toss from the mound to first? Cabrera can't get the ball out of his glove on a relatively easy ground ball up the middle in the 2nd?

It was a dominating pitching performance, but it was also an embarrassing loss. The fact that it was a no-hitter makes for a distraction that takes some of the sting off the loss, but I think you're deluding yourself.

How would you feel about it if it was a 1-hitter? Say Phillips legs out that last little squibbler and Cabrera whiffs in the next at-bat? Would you still be glad?

[PM Thor]

Kahns, you don't seem to get it. I'm glad I saw sports history last night. If it was a one hitter, then it wouldn't have made history and there would not have been anything to be excited about. I think you are confusing Halladays performance with the Reds loss on this. I'm not embarassed by the Reds performance, sure they made one or two mistakes in the field, but Halladays outing was so far beyond impressive it overlaps every other aspect of the game. It's one of those games where in twenty years I'll be glad to say I saw it, even if it was at the hands of the Phillies over the Reds.

I HATE dayton.

[Kahns Krazy]

No, I don't get it. I understand that it's historic, but I'm still not glad it happened or that I saw it. We got freaking used and abused.

If Dayton beats us 100-2 in the most historic ass whooping in the history of the NCAA, will you be glad you saw it? Will it overlap every other aspect of the game? Will it be so far beyond impressive?

It's not like you were there. You just watched it on TV. You can probably watch it again today.

[Muskied]

Personally...I'm pissed about it. I hated watching the performance, the freaking white towels, the stupid strikeout celebration the OF fans did, and all commentary on the game. However, I have no blame or regrets to identify. I'm not sure if the Reds would have a hit off of Roy through 18 innings last night. I'm not sure if any team would have a hit off Roy last night. No matter who the Reds threw out there or what mistakes, it really doesn't matter....last night was going to happen. The key is to move on, and have short memories, which thankfully is a quality the Reds have demonstrated this year.

[GoMuskies]

I'm glad I saw it

This is the only part I really don't get. Were you cheering for Halladay in the ninth, then? I can understand appreciating Halladay's greatness yesterday, but glad you saw it?!?

Watching this performance made me want to gouge my eyes out.

[Porkopolis]

This is the only part I really don't get. Were you cheering for Halladay in the ninth, then? I can understand appreciating Halladay's greatness yesterday, but glad you saw it?!?

Watching this performance made me want to gouge my eyes out.

Step back for a second and put yourself in the shoes of a neutral fan; how would you feel then? That was one special performance, the kind that made me admire it even as my team was getting mauled. It is so far removed from the 100-2 UD theoretical whipping it is not even funny. To lose that badly in basketball you have to do a lot wrong. Pitcher is the one position in sports that can single handedly destroy you, and that is what Halladay did yesterday. Nothing the Reds did would have mattered...or the Yankees, or the Rays, or the Twins or any other team in the majors. It sucks to be on the receiving end, but the performance was still magnificent to watch. Sometimes you just tip your cap, say "you kicked our rears," and move on.

[kyxu]

Nothing the Reds did would have mattered...or the Yankees, or the Rays, or the Twins or any other team in the majors.

This is an opinion.

Halladay certainly had great stuff yesterday, but to say that other teams would have been equally futile just because the Reds were is not based on anything besides an opinion spurred from your wishful thinking.

I'm not a fan of either team. But if I were a Reds fan, I could not have endured yesterday, and couldn't wait for Game 2 to put that one behind me.

[DC Muskie]

Your're wasting your time w/ DC. Logic isn't used. However, I agree with what you are saying. Halladay is a stud. 2 no-hitters in one year with one being is his first playoff game ever. Impressive. Now I wait for DC to call me a pussy.

Man I really pushed your buttons. Chase Utley had a nice game. He's a sweetie.

The Browns got drilled by the Steelers when they returned. 43-0. It was an absolute disaster. The Steelers worked them over.

I was not impressed. I was not happy. I dislike the Steelers, very much. I didn't sit there and take that ass whipping with a positive experience.

Maybe Red fans are just grateful to be on the filed with better players. Maybe not being able to get Halladay themselves, they should be happy to be sacrificed. Maybe another 15 years can go by before you get to witness your Reds getting worked by Trash Phillie fans.

I'm just glad I'm not you guys. My team loses I'm not slapping backs talking about how impressive it was my team sucked.

[PM Thor]

This is the only part I really don't get. Were you cheering for Halladay in the ninth, then? I can understand appreciating Halladay's greatness yesterday, but glad you saw it?!?

Watching this performance made me want to gouge my eyes out.

No, I wasn't cheering Halladay in the 9th. I wanted every Red that came up to get a hit. Maybe I should have said "In retrospect" I'm glad I saw it.

I think people can't get beyond their emotional attachment to the Reds to see what happened. Halladay became the first pitcher ever to have a perfect game and a no hitter in the regular season and post season. No one would have hit him, I can't name any team that would have either. He never got a 2-0 count the entire game!

It's not like the Reds are a bunch of slouches either, they led the NL in batting, homers and on base percentage, they know how to hit. It just proves how good Halladay was last night. Emotion clouds peoples perception of the game. Reds fans are obviously distraught by the loss, but for me, I'm more impressed with that pitching performance over the loss.


If Dayton beats us 100-2 in the most historic ass whooping in the history of the NCAA, will you be glad you saw it? Will it overlap every other aspect of the game? Will it be so far beyond impressive?

Ok, now that's just crazy talk. Stop it with that craziness.

I HATE dayton.

[DC Muskie]

[B][COLOR="Navy"]but Halladays outing was so far beyond impressive it overlaps every other aspect of the game.

Wow. Just utter wow.

I hope for your sake Thor the Reds never get a hit, or score a run, just to take the emotion of disappointment out of you and replace it with awe.

[drudy23]

I judge it based on how I feel when I'm watching it.

For most no hitters or perfect games, I'll make it an effort to make sure I see the last pitch and generally get excited when one is happening/about to happen.

I didn't feel that way last night.

[DC Muskie]

Step back for a second and put yourself in the shoes of a neutral fan; how would you feel then?

Reds fans are now neutral fans during a series the Red are playing? That's how Red fans are viewing this series?


Nothing the Reds did would have mattered...or the Yankees, or the Rays, or the Twins or any other team in the majors. It sucks to be on the receiving end, but the performance was still magnificent to watch. Sometimes you just tip your cap, say "you kicked our rears," and move on.

I don't think the '27 Yankees could have hit Halladay. Why? Because Joey Votto and Jay Bruce couldn't do it.

I love that.

[PM Thor]

This is an opinion.

Halladay certainly had great stuff yesterday, but to say that other teams would have been equally futile just because the Reds were is not based on anything besides an opinion spurred from your wishful thinking.
I'm not a fan of either team. But if I were a Reds fan, I could not have endured yesterday, and couldn't wait for Game 2 to put that one behind me.

Not exactly true. Statistically the Reds are the best hitting team in the NL. So saying that other lesser hitting teams in the league, or even other equally impressive hitting teams from the AL would not have hit Halladay isn't too much of a stretch.

I HATE dayton.

[PM Thor]

Wow. Just utter wow.

I hope for your sake Thor the Reds never get a hit, or score a run, just to take the emotion of disappointment out of you and replace it with awe.

Nice. In terms of historical context, last night was a once in a lifetime event. I'm glad I saw it, even if you can't appreciate what happened.

I HATE dayton.

[XU 87]

I'm just glad I'm not you guys. My team loses I'm not slapping backs talking about how impressive it was my team sucked.

Alan Grayson, where did anyone say that?

[GoMuskies]

Step back for a second and put yourself in the shoes of a neutral fan;

Why? I wasn't neutral. I was watching my team's first playoff game in 15 years. I'm not glad I saw it. I wish I could erase it from my brain.

[kyxu]

Not exactly true. Statistically the Reds are the best hitting team in the NL. So saying that other lesser hitting teams in the league, or even other equally impressive hitting teams from the AL would not have hit Halladay isn't too much of a stretch.

Again, is that a fact? Is Halladay some unstoppable force of nature that can't be hit by any team in the major leagues, even on a good night? He's a great pitcher, but he's not God.

Saying that there's nothing any team in the majors could have done anything to Halladay last night, simply because the Cincinnati Reds couldn't, is not a fact. It's an opinion.

[DC Muskie]

Alan Grayson, where did anyone say that?

Maury Povich, have you been reading any of Thors or Pork's responses?

[DC Muskie]

Nice. In terms of historical context, last night was a once in a lifetime event. I'm glad I saw it, even if you can't appreciate what happened.

I HATE dayton.

Actually it's twice in the lifetime of your parents.

[PM Thor]

Again, is that a fact? Is Halladay some unstoppable force of nature that can't be hit by any team in the major leagues, even on a good night? He's a great pitcher, but he's not God.

Saying that there's nothing any team in the majors could have done anything to Halladay last night, simply because the Cincinnati Reds couldn't, is not a fact. It's an opinion.

Well ok, I concede that it's an opinion. But it's an opinion that is bolstered by the fact that the Reds are one of the best hitting teams in MLB. (As a team, the Reds haven't been no hit since '71, over 6,000 games)


Actually it's twice in the lifetime of your parents.

No, it's once ever. No pitcher has had a season with a perfect game in the regular season and a no hitter in the post season, so it's an even rarer event than that.

I HATE dayton.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Some key points:


1) Letting Victorino steal third in the 1st. After his double, its almost as if no one on the reds even entertained the idea that a track star would attempt to steal 3rd. Major mental lapse that directly resulted in the Phillies 1st run. Spotting a run to one of the games best pitchers, against one of the games best teams, at one of the toughest places to play in the 1st is far from ideal. Especially given how tough the Phillies are as a team in games when they score first.

2) Cabrera had a brain fart in the 2nd with that defensive play. I don't know if he forgot how many outs there were or if he really thought he could get the ball to second. Maybe he just never got control of the ball from his glove. I understand it was a tough play to make, but that's a play he normally makes. That extended the inning

3) Our overall approach at hitting. Nobody aside from Votto milked the at bats. Nobody aside from Votto tried to get Halladay out of his rhythm. Granted, it probably wouldn't have helped in the grand scheme of things since the stars were aligned with Halladay, but seeing the batting approach over and over was frustrating.

Called strike 1
Swing at a pitchers pitch - Strike 2

0-2 right off the bat in many cases (no pun intended)

Dusty said the gameplan was to take pitches beforehand (which is not a bad gameplan at all). But seeing the unbelievable control Halladay had last night, that first pitch strike was probably the batter's best chance to hit. Instead, the reds batters literally let Halladay dictate the pace, tempo and the feel of the game.

4) The Halladay single was complete BS. I won't delve too much into this but it pretty much shows the stars were aligned that game for him. You have got to get the pitcher out in that situation but kudos to Roy. His swing is the Pauly Shore of swings.

5) Volquez really wasn't that wild last night. Watching the pitch tracker thing in the corner, a ton of his "balls" were very very close to being a strike or in the zone. I realize that's how every baseball game is for the most part, but I honestly didn't think he was THAT bad last night. But when things didn't go his way, you could start to see him unravel emotionally. That's where he started making his mistakes - when things didn't go his way i.e. the meatball pitch to Halladay


On the positive side,

1) Wood and the rest of the relievers were outstanding.

2) Howard/Werth went 0 for whatever. If you were to tell me before the game we could get those two hitless in game one, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

GOOD NEWS: It's only 1-0 Phillies. It counts as 1 win
BAD NEWS: Oswalt has been just as dominant as Halladay if not more since his trade to the Phillies.

[DC Muskie]

Well ok, I concede that it's an opinion. But it's an opinion that is bolstered by the fact that the Reds are one of the best hitting teams in MLB. (As a team, the Reds haven't been no hit since '71, over 6,000 games)

Weren't the Rays no hit twice this year? And they won the AL East. What exactly is the point here?

[PM Thor]

Weren't the Rays no hit twice this year? And they won the AL East. What exactly is the point here?

The point is that you can have a great hitting team, but if you come up against a pitcher who was on like Halladay was, then the pitcher will come out on top.

I HATE dayton.

[DC Muskie]

The point is that you can have a great hitting team, but if you come up against a pitcher who was on like Halladay was, then the pitcher will come out on top.

I HATE dayton.

Well do you think the Reds could have hit Dallas Braden back on Mother's Day? Or was Braden stuff just some weak ass junk that anybody but the Rays could have hit that day?

[eXdrummer]

Weren't the Rays no hit twice this year? And they won the AL East. What exactly is the point here?

FWIW, the Rays this year had the fifth-worst batting average of all time for a playoff team

[DC Muskie]

FWIW, the Rays this year had the fifth-worst batting average of all time for a playoff team

I guess that means the Reds would have done better against Cliff Lee then.

[XUglow]

Dear Reds,

Play-offs started yesterday. Feel free to join us when you can.

Sincerely,

MLB

[eXdrummer]

I guess that means the Reds would have done better against Cliff Lee then.

Better than zero hits? Almost definitely... Better than 1 run? Good chance, yes.

What does it matter? It's moot.

[Porkopolis]

This is an opinion.

Halladay certainly had great stuff yesterday, but to say that other teams would have been equally futile just because the Reds were is not based on anything besides an opinion spurred from your wishful thinking.

Of course it is an opinion; I get so tired of people pointing that out on an internet message board. Heck yeah it's an opinion, we're discussing baseball here not debating on the floor of the US Senate. When did everyone start expecting posts on a message board to be gospel truth? If that were the criteria we might as well shut this place down. Shall we all start prefacing every statement with "imo" to clarify?

My opinion, however, is based in cold, hard stats. The Reds numbers this season speak for themselves. Even the less-potent Cincinnati bats of the past month are as good as any in the National League. If you can name the lineup that would have done better against someone dealing like Halladay was last night, feel free to do so.

[PM Thor]

Well do you think the Reds could have hit Dallas Braden back on Mother's Day? Or was Braden stuff just some weak ass junk that anybody but the Rays could have hit that day?

I don't know, and can't say yes or no to it anyway, didn't see it. It's irrelevant. I can appreciate when I see a gem of a pitching effort, even if it comes against the Reds.

I HATE dayton.

[kyxu]

Of course it is an opinion; I get so tired of people pointing that out on an internet message board. Heck yeah it's an opinion, we're discussing baseball here not debating on the floor of the US Senate. When did everyone start expecting posts on a message board to be gospel truth? If that were the criteria we might as well shut this place down. Shall we all start prefacing every statement with "imo" to clarify?

Then you shouldn't present it as fact, and don't speak about it as something unpreventable when it isn't. It doesn't matter the content of the discussion, but you're charting some "inevitability" as a reason it was ok for the Reds last night. Like as if no one else could do any better, when you know that probably isn't the case.

And stats may indicate Cincinnati has the highest batting average in the national league, but that doesn't make them the best hitting team in baseball (fourth overall in batting average), and it doesn't mean they're the best hitting team in the NL every night they take the field.

Some fans here are making it sound like there's nothing Cincinnati, or anyone else, could have done about last night. And because of that, last night was ok if you're a Reds fan. Like Halladay is some unstoppable force.

Maybe, just maybe, the Reds were also terrible last night.

[Porkopolis]

Then you shouldn't present it as fact, and don't speak about it as something unpreventable when it isn't. It doesn't matter the content of the discussion, but you're charting some "inevitability" as a reason it was ok for the Reds last night. Like as if no one else could do any better, when you know that probably isn't the case.

And stats may indicate Cincinnati has the highest batting average in the national league, but that doesn't make them the best hitting team in baseball (fourth overall in batting average), and it doesn't mean they're the best hitting team in the NL every night they take the field.

Some fans here are making it sound like there's nothing Cincinnati, or anyone else, could have done about last night. And because of that, last night was ok if you're a Reds fan. Like Halladay is some unstoppable force.

Maybe, just maybe, the Reds were also terrible last night.

I agree that the Reds were terrible last night. That doesn't mean Halladay was any less dominant. If you put him on a mound throwing to a catcher with no hitter, he would still pass the eyeball test in a big way. Just so I don't confuse anyone, that is my opinion. It is not a fact. Anything written by me on this particular slice of the internet is my opinion and nothing more.

There, does my disclaimer help out at all? :D

[Kahns Krazy]

I don't know, and can't say yes or no to it anyway, didn't see it. It's irrelevant. I can appreciate when I see a gem of a pitching effort, even if it comes against the Reds.

I HATE dayton.

I guess that's the luxury of being a bandwagon fan.

When Duke executed a near perfect half against the muskies in 2008, were you glad you saw it? When Duquesne shot 81 percent from the field in the first half on the way to snapping a 35 year winless streak against top 10 teams, were you glad you saw it? These were both dominating performances by opposing teams. Did you appreciate those efforts? Were you glad you saw them?

[Porkopolis]

I guess that's the luxury of being a bandwagon fan.

When Duke executed a near perfect half against the muskies in 2008, were you glad you saw it? When Duquesne shot 81 percent from the field in the first half on the way to snapping a 35 year winless streak against top 10 teams, were you glad you saw it? These were both dominating performances by opposing teams. Did you appreciate those efforts? Were you glad you saw them?

And there it is: The "You're Not A Real Fan" insult. Geesh, what is this, UD Pride?

[bobbiemcgee]

A lot of teams could have had Halliday. The Phillies stepped up when others wouldn't and the results have been great.

[kyxu]

I guess that's the luxury of being a bandwagon fan.

When Duke executed a near perfect half against the muskies in 2008, were you glad you saw it? When Duquesne shot 81 percent from the field in the first half on the way to snapping a 35 year winless streak against top 10 teams, were you glad you saw it? These were both dominating performances by opposing teams. Did you appreciate those efforts? Were you glad you saw them?

This is kind of the way I feel about the whole thing, and I'm not a Reds fan.

If I were, last night would've felt like a punch in the gut, with the only thing that I was "glad to see" was the game ending.

[Kahns Krazy]

And there it is: The "You're Not A Real Fan" insult. Geesh, what is this, UD Pride?No, I'm talking to Thor specifically. Thor, who bought season tickets to the Bengals after the 2005 playoff season and now talks about the Bengals as though they are the scum of the Earth after they went 4-11-1. Thor who probably went to 5 or fewer games during the regular season, then dropped over $900 on playoff tickets. Other than about Xavier Basketball, Thor is a bandwagon fan.

He's not alone. I was at the game a week or so before the Reds clinched. In commanding control of the division on a beautiful night, the announced attendance was in the 12,000 range. If there were 10,000 in the park, many of them were hiding in the bathroom. Yet somehow when playoff tickets were on sale for many times the ticket price, they sold out in minutes, with a waiting list.

My point about dominating performances against the Muskies is that when they happen to "your" team, the reaction is rarely to appreciate the quality of the opponent's performance.

I don't care how commanding Halladay was last night. He threw plenty of hittable balls. The Reds just didn't hit them. He certainly threw less mistake balls than most pitchers, but it's not like he threw 81 strikes and we swung and missed at all of them.

[XU 87]

I don't care how commanding Halladay was last night. He threw plenty of hittable balls. The Reds just didn't hit them.

If "couple" means two, and "few" means 3, then "plenty" must mean 4.

[Kahns Krazy]

I'm not going to go rewatch the game to count strikes in the middle of the strikezone, but the Reds were resting some lumber on the shoulder on fastballs down the middle. The first pitch to Phillips in the 9th was a notable example, but by no means the only one.

Here's a stat - 16 of the Reds 28 batters took the first pitch for a strike, including all 3 in 2nd, 4th and the 9th.. In 3 at bats, Rolen took 5 pitches for strikes.

At what point were they going to catch on that Halladay was throwing freaking strikes?

[Cheesehead]

Kahn:

Very good point. Especially when they have guys charting this stuff.

I guess they were fooled badly?

[Smails]

Halladay ALWAYS throws strikes...that's not a revelation. He started 33 games this year and walked 30 batters. Everyone knows he's going to be around the plate. One TV he reminds me of Mariano Rivera. He looks extremely hittable, but nobody squares the ball on him. If my son has the arm to pitch I am going to teach him 2 pitches...the cut fastball and change up.

I was utterly disgusted watching the Reds swing through and foul off good pitches last night. Halladay is a great pitcher, but I now hate his guts and always will. He can lick my taint from here on out.

[Kahns Krazy]

It reminded me of a poker game when one player has picked up on another one's tells. Halladay wasn't playing his hand, he was playing the batter. We were taking strikes and swinging at balls all night. It was a freaking clinic, and we played right into his hand.

[PM Thor]

No, I'm talking to Thor specifically. Thor, who bought season tickets to the Bengals after the 2005 playoff season and now talks about the Bengals as though they are the scum of the Earth after they went 4-11-1. Thor who probably went to 5 or fewer games during the regular season, then dropped over $900 on playoff tickets. Other than about Xavier Basketball, Thor is a bandwagon fan.

He's not alone. I was at the game a week or so before the Reds clinched. In commanding control of the division on a beautiful night, the announced attendance was in the 12,000 range. If there were 10,000 in the park, many of them were hiding in the bathroom. Yet somehow when playoff tickets were on sale for many times the ticket price, they sold out in minutes, with a waiting list.

My point about dominating performances against the Muskies is that when they happen to "your" team, the reaction is rarely to appreciate the quality of the opponent's performance.

I don't care how commanding Halladay was last night. He threw plenty of hittable balls. The Reds just didn't hit them. He certainly threw less mistake balls than most pitchers, but it's not like he threw 81 strikes and we swung and missed at all of them.

Whatever Kahns. I'm not a bandwagon fan, what an asinine argument to come from you. As for me buying Bungles tickets back then, that's when I could afford to do so, and I used to be a fan of the team. I got sick of the kick in the gut from Mike Brown though, over and over and over again, and now I watch NFL only to keep my attention until college basketball season starts.

I don't care if you think I'm a bandwagon fan or not when it comes to the Reds, because it's simply not true. But it's your opinion, even if you are wrong about it.

And for the record, as a Reds fan, I can appreciate what Halladay did and its historic relevance in baseball. Those other instances you pointed to are irrelevant, because none of them come even close to the level of signifigance of what Halladay did.

I've said my peace, feel that you have gotten a little around the bend on this one with the "bandwagon" insult, and so I'll leave it at that.

Respectfully, Mr Bandwagon, PM Thor. (as determined by Kahns)

I HATE dayton.

[XU 87]

At what point were they going to catch on that Halladay was throwing freaking strikes?

He was throwing strikes. But they were almost always painting the corner. The guy threw a no-hitter because he had exceptional stuff yesterday.

[Kahns Krazy]

Ouch. Someone pushed a button. I'm "around the bend" for calling you a bandwagon fan.

How much did you spend on regular season games this year? How much did you drop on post season games? As far as being able to afford to do so, you spent nearly as much on 3 playoff games as a pair of season tickets would cost for the Bengals (which you now affectionately call the "Bungles", Bandwagon fan). You jumped on the Bengals when they went to the playoffs, and now you're jumping on the Reds.

As you like to say, it's my opinion that you are a bandwagon fan, but it's bolstered by the facts.


I got sick of the kick in the gut from Mike Brown though, over and over and over again

Hilarious. That's one over for each year you were a Bengals ticket holder. Yeah, you really stuck that one out.

[PM Thor]

Hmm. I didn't know quitting on the Bungles helps to determine my bandwagoness level of fandom for the Reds. That's good to know. Guess I'll factor that in next time I look to Kahns for determining if I'm a real fan or not. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

What's funny is that you are trying to come up with some quantitative level needed to be spent on the Reds in order to determine if I'm a fan. Let's say I went to 5 games, does that mean I'm a bandwagon fan? Oh but if I went to 6 that means I'm not bandwagon. Who are you to say that someone else isn't really a fan? Is this simply because you can't fathom that a real fan can see a great performance from an opposing player and appreciate the historical relevance of it?
Edit. I forgot to add, I don't hate the Bengals, I hate Mike Brown, and will not give that idiot another penny of my money, ever. If he ever sells off the team, or dies, then I will probably pick up season tickets again.

I HATE dayton.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

He was throwing strikes. But they were almost always painting the corner. The guy threw a no-hitter because he had exceptional stuff yesterday.

Lance has these stats on his website:

Roy Halladay threw 104 pitches Wednesday night...79 strikes/25 balls.
He threw 108.1 pitches per game in regular season.
He averaged 11.5 pitches per inning Wednesday.
He averaged 14.2 pitches per game in regular season.
Of his 104 pitches Wednesday night:
23 called strikes
19 swinging strikes
19 foul balls
18 balls put in play
He faced 28 batters. He threw a first pitch strike to 25 batters.
He is the breakdown of the approach by the Reds on the first pitch seen each at-bat.
Took strike one: 16
Fouled off: 2
Swung missed: 5
Put in play: 2 (Phillips ground out, Bruce ground out)
Took for a ball: 3 (Wood, Votto, Phillips)

As Jonny Gomes said after the game no approach worked.
Brandon Phillips was hacking on the first pitch of the game and grounded out.
Four of the next five batters took the first pitch.....4 called strikes/1 foul ball.
From the 2nd inning through the 5th inning the Reds took the first pitch 9 of 12 at-bats.
From the 6th inning through the 8th inning each leadoff batter swung at the first pitch.
Reds' batters ended the game with four consecutive batters taking the first pitch.all were called strikes.

He had exceptional stuff. I thought the reds could have had better individual approaches like Votto and Bruce to the at bats, but it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game. At the end of the day, its only one game. Coming out of Philly with a 1-1 split is an absolute great scenario for us - but it will be extremely tough. Oswalt has been pitching better than Halladay ever since the trade to the Phillies.

Oswalt has lost 1 game since the trade and has never lost in Philly in his career (9-0, 2 ERA)

[XU 87]

There are probably two reasons the Reds took so many first pitches. The first is that they weren't getting good first pitches to hit. Why swing at the first pitch if it's not a good pitch to hit?

But the second reason is I suspect that the Reds were trying to work Halladay deeper into the count to get his pitch count up and, in turn, get him out of the game earlier. When you're facing a great pitcher like him, that's not a bad strategy and is a strategy straight out of Moneyball.

[Porkopolis]

I'm not going to go rewatch the game to count strikes in the middle of the strikezone, but the Reds were resting some lumber on the shoulder on fastballs down the middle. The first pitch to Phillips in the 9th was a notable example, but by no means the only one.



Here you go. :)

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/HalladayGrab2.jpg

[drudy23]

Here you go. :)

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/HalladayGrab2.jpg

Someone should show this to Cabrera...only one called strike out of the strike zone.

In fact, the opposite can be argued where more strikes were called balls.

[chico]

With a guy you know is throwing strikes, and you still want to work the count, the idea should be to look for a pitch in a certain zone. Once you get to two strikes, though, you need to shorten up and get the ball in play. That's what Victorino did in the first - he slapped an outside pitch to right and got things going with his double.

That being said, the best pitcher in the league had his best stuff last night. Couple that with a 4 run lead after 2 and nobody was hitting that guy.

The Reds have had a tendency to shake things off this year. We'll see if they can do it one more time.

[Kahns Krazy]

Hmm. I didn't know quitting on the Bungles helps to determine my bandwagoness level of fandom for the Reds. That's good to know. Guess I'll factor that in next time I look to Kahns for determining if I'm a real fan or not. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

What's funny is that you are trying to come up with some quantitative level needed to be spent on the Reds in order to determine if I'm a fan. Let's say I went to 5 games, does that mean I'm a bandwagon fan? Oh but if I went to 6 that means I'm not bandwagon. Who are you to say that someone else isn't really a fan? Is this simply because you can't fathom that a real fan can see a great performance from an opposing player and appreciate the historical relevance of it?

I HATE dayton.

No, what's funny is that you aren't answering the question. How many games did you go to during the regular season?

The fact is that you jumped on the Bengals bandwagon when they made the playoffs, then jumped off when they won 4 games. That is a fact. You may have other reasons for the timing of it, but the fact is, those were the seasons you were a season ticket holder. I seriously doubt your claim that you gave up your tickets for any other reason other than they weren't winning. If the Bengals had been to the playoffs for 5 straight years, you'd still be a fan, regardless of how big of an ass that Mike Brown is.

[CinciX12]

How much did you spend on regular season games this year? How much did you drop on post season games? As far as being able to afford to do so, you spent nearly as much on 3 playoff games as a pair of season tickets would cost for the Bengals (which you now affectionately call the "Bungles", Bandwagon fan). You jumped on the Bengals when they went to the playoffs, and now you're jumping on the Reds.



What in the world are you talking about. You could buy 3 games of NLCS tickets out in left field for $45 bucks a piece. Field box seats only cost $75.

[bobbiemcgee]

He was throwing strikes. But they were almost always painting the corner. The guy threw a no-hitter because he had exceptional stuff yesterday.

RH had perfect control. It's not like the Reds hitters didn't know what to expect, it was just that they weren't going to hit a perfectly thrown ball that ends up 2-3 inches from where they were swinging. He has great movement on the ball for strikes that look like balls 3 feet out. Jimenez ball broke like that early in the season. After he was worn out halfway through the year - flat 100 mph fastballs getting hit everywhere.

[Kahns Krazy]

What in the world are you talking about. You could buy 3 games of NLCS tickets out in left field for $45 bucks a piece. Field box seats only cost $75.

I'm talking about the wagon driver:


Fine by me. It took me 45 minutes to finally get my transaction done, and I dropped $900 for 18 tickets for the potential games, but I thought about it, and you just don't know when this might ever happen again, so it was time to go on a crazy spending spree.

I HATE dayton.

Buh-hand-wagon.


People can look back at my posts about Dusty, I wasn't a fan. But dammit, he's sqeezed every ounce of effort out of this team that I could imagine. That guy is a damn good manager. I eat my words. I am impressed. Very impressed.

This is a breakout year for this team. When does Vottos contract end anyway?

Bringing up the Cuban now? Holy crap, talk about stomping on an opponents neck. Dagger. We are making a major, major push for the WS. No other team can even consider bringing up that kind of pitching talent this late in the year.

I HATE dayton.

I didn't like Dusty until he started winning. He's doing the exact same thing, but now that it's working, he's a good manager.... of the BANDWAGON!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc084LXcEvc

I should have gone to the game tonight...dammit. Only 17k or so went, we need to get a bigger crowd there, I'm planning on going at least once a week from here on out.

I HATE dayton.

How'd that once a week plan work out, Bandy?


I'm impressed. I admit, I can't stand Dusty, but since their closed door talk, they are getting it done. It's pretty fun to watch them play right now. Oh, and I still worry about Leake. That kid ooozes talent, I just don't want him to be ruined, I think he's the kind of pitcher you build a staff around when he gets a little older.

I HATE dayton

This is from waaaaayyyyy back in May when you "couldn't stand" Dusty. You know, the guy you called a "damn good manager" about 2 months later.


I'm sorry that I'm so far around the bend calling you a bandwagon fan for dropping $900 on playoff tickets for a team that's managed by a guy you couldn't stand 4 months ago. You're right. You're a die hard fan. Win or win.

[DC Muskie]

but I now hate his guts and always will. He can lick my taint from here on out.

YEEEEESSSS Smails!

Let the hate consume you. Halladay is flat out Philly Trash.

Reds Fans take note. Join the rest of the baseball world. Hate the Trash.

[XU 87]

Marty Brennaman said today that Halladay pitched the best game he has seen in 37 years of announcing.

[XU 87]

I didn't like Dusty until he started winning. He's doing the exact same thing, but now that it's working, he's a good manager.... of the BANDWAGON!



Full disclosure: I also thought Dusty wasn't a very good manager before the season. Now I think he's a pretty good manager. In fact, I think he should be get manager of the year.

Does this mean I have to turn my playoff tickets in?

[PM Thor]

Hmm, let me get this straight. Kahns wants me to provide the number of games I went to, in order to meet his supposed "bandwagon" rating.

Well, I went to 43 games. But they were only the $5 tickets. Oh wait, I went to 3 games, but they were Diamond seats. Uh oh. I don't think I meet Kahns standards of bandwagondom.

Here is the real answer Kahns. It's none of your business how many games I went to, because I could care less about you calling me a bandwagon fan and it's ludicrous for you to judge anyone for their level of fanaticism.

I bought Bengals tickets because I was a fan. I can honestly say I am not a fan anymore. I watch the games, sure, but I don't get worked up about it if they lose anymore. I'm much more healthier for it too. It wouldn't matter if they started winning consistently, because it's about Mike Brown for me. I cannot stand the guy and will not give the guy another penny. I turned down free tickets to the Bengals/Browns game last week, because I didn't think it was worth it to drive 4 hours and stay up there for the game. I was right.

As for my feelings about the Reds and Dusty. I wasn't a fan of Dusty, obviously. But does that mean I'm not a fan of the team? When did that connection happen? And, as you noted, I even noted I was wrong about the guy. If I wasn't a fan of the team, I wouldn't even be commenting on the subject in the first place, now would I?

You know what, I give up. It's useless to argue about being bandwagon or not with someone who already has their mind made up and is judging someone else with some random system of their own. So fine, I'm bandwagon. Sue me. I'll be watching the game from section 532 row G seat 21 through 16 with my fiancee', my Dad, and 3 of my brothers, wishing my Mom (who was the biggest Reds fan I have ever met, and she didn't go to a single game this year!) could be there to see it.

I HATE dayton.

[Cheesehead]

UC football fans are the bandwagon type. Wait until this season unfolds and see how empty Nippert will be next season.

I had a UC fan give me shit about Xavier's "football program". I said yeah, you're right we don't have football, you got me! At least we have basketball though. He smiled but I could tell it pissed him off.

Anyway, GO REDS!

[GuyFawkes38]

Lincecum just pitched a 2 hitter with 14 strikeouts.

It's just the way things are now in MLB.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Lincecum just pitched a 2 hitter with 14 strikeouts.

It's just the way things are now in MLB.

Giants pitching has been ridiculous in the last month or so. They really have come on strong.

[AdamtheFlyer]

Never understood the whole "bandwagon" fan thing. Aren't we all bandwagon to a point? We care a little more when our teams are good, and a little less when they aren't. It's pretty natural, IMO. It's just sports after all. We all (hopefully) have lives beyond other people's athletic prowess in a given year.

[GuyFawkes38]

Never understood the whole "bandwagon" fan thing. Aren't we all bandwagon to a point? We care a little more when our teams are good, and a little less when they aren't. It's pretty natural, IMO. It's just sports after all. We all (hopefully) have lives beyond other people's athletic prowess in a given year.

I think "bandwagon fan" is a fairly clear term (when a team suddenly gets good, a person becomes a fan....and it has to be a conscience choice....I grew up loving the detroit tigers...it wasn't really a choice).

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with being a bandwagon fan. I know of a person who jumped on the Indianapolis Colts bandwagon when they won the super bowl. It happens.

[PM Thor]

I think "bandwagon fan" is a fairly clear term (when a team suddenly gets good, a person becomes a fan....and it has to be a conscience choice....I grew up loving the detroit tigers...it wasn't really a choice).

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with being a bandwagon fan. I know of a person who jumped on the Indianapolis Colts bandwagon when they won the super bowl. It happens.

It's ridiculous to me for one fan to call another fan a bandwagon fan. I don't get it. But let me go back 20 years. I worked at Riverfront, was a vendor. I saw every game at home that year. The year the Reds went wire to wire. It was awesome. The year before, the Reds finished 17 games back, and I attended Opening Day and 4 other games. Was I a bandwagon fan then?

Would I be a better fan if I sat with my mother on her deathbed and watched numerous Reds games? Or should I have attended said games?

Bandwagon? Totally subjective argument, reminds me of the midmajor thing.

I HATE dayton.

[GuyFawkes38]

you don't sound like a bandwagon fan.

I don't understand the desire to abandon the term. I think it's useful. Lebron James is a bandwagon fan because as a kid he decided to root for winning teams that he previously had no connection to (NY Yankees, Dallas Cowboys, Chicago Bulls).

Should we not call Lebron what he is? That strikes me as political correctness gone mad. Lets abandon the term because it offends some people.

[bobbiemcgee]

Lincecum just pitched a 2 hitter with 14 strikeouts.

It's just the way things are now in MLB.

BandWagon now loading lane 5 - I actually do like Tim, anybody smoking weed and getting a speeding ticket in their Mercedes says alot.

[Kahns Krazy]

There were 12,000 fans in the stands 3 weeks ago. Tickets to the playoff games sold out, and are selling for up to 5 times face price. People buy the hot ticket. I really didn't mean it to be derogatory.

My only point was that I would expect that the fans who have made the program a priority year in and year out, spend their time and money following the team when it wins or loses, probably didn't share Thor's "appreciation" of the pitching effort so much on Wednesday night.

When you're a relatively disinterested fan that happens to have tickets to the upcoming home game, it's a bit easier to say "wow, what a performance by the opposition" than it would be if you've been in the stands on a regular basis for 15 years, waiting for the Reds first postseason appearance, one in which they piddled down their leg in grand fashion.

I consider myself a diehard Xavier and Bengals fan. For everything else, which includes the Reds, I'm a bandwagon fan. I really don't have a problem with it. I have my priorities. At one point, I was a bandwagon XU fan. That was 15 years ago.

Embrace the bandwagon. It's a fun ride, and the seats are full!

[CinciX12]

Lets just all agree on not pissing down our legs tonight shall we? Otherwise for the first time since I was 6 years old we are going to get embarrassed, yet again. Because we know we don't have a chance if we go down 2.

[chico]

Been a Reds fan for as long as I can remember. Right behind me in my office are posters of Bench, Foster and Concepcion. So I don't consider myself a bandwagon fan.

That being said, Wednesday's game was not that heartbreaking to be honest with you. This season has been so much fun and so unexpected that one game won't change the goodwill the team has built up. Plus, I still think this team is a year or two away from peaking (I know nothing is certain and injuries, chemistry etc. can easily change that) and I'm just enjoying the fact that I get to see the Reds in October. Kind of like playing with house money right now.

Sure, it was a big disappointment to see them lose and do it in the fashion they did. But I pretty much knew that after the Phils got 4 runs that we weren't going to win - no way were we going to get that many runs off Halladay.

[gladdenguy]

UC football fans are the bandwagon type. Wait until this season unfolds and see how empty Nippert will be next season.

I had a UC fan give me shit about Xavier's "football program". I said yeah, you're right we don't have football, you got me! At least we have basketball though. He smiled but I could tell it pissed him off.

Anyway, GO REDS!

Great reply on that Cheesehead. Quality. I might use it as well if thats okay.

Kahns.....simmer down. My gosh....its Thor.

[GoMuskies]

Feeling an offensive explosion this evening. 10-2 Reds.

[gladdenguy]

Actually, as Cincinnati Professional Sports fans we deserve the right to like them when we want to like them. I will always be a Reds and Bengals supporter but when they suck, which has been plenty over the last 20 years, I would rather do other things.

As far as going to Bengal games.....I'm done until they get a new quarterback.
The Palmers have played this city like a fool. Yes, I can include Carson's darrylict brother because he still collects a paycheck. We have wasted so much money on a pair of horrible brothers who would have been run out of any other town by now. Instead, Mike Brown still pays Carson Palmer 16 million to do nothing....I guess not nothing, throw interceptions, hold the ball, and fumble twice (the frickin Browns).

As far as Reds games, they suck. The crowd at GABP is terrible until there is a game clinching game or a playoff game. Unless you are drinking beers, the game is long, uncomfortable, and boring. I would much rather flip back and forth on my television.

So, if Thor wants to jump on and off the bandwagon....more power to him. He deserves that right for watching the Reds and Bengals crap for the last 20 years.
I went to one Reds game this year and it was to take 6 of my students who had excellent years with me last year. Thats it. But, I will be down there Sunday night. Am I a bandwagon? I guess. I don't care. Watching these two teams religiously over the last 20 years will make your head hurt.

[Kahns Krazy]

Kahns, you don't seem to get it.
I HATE dayton.


I think people can't get beyond their emotional attachment to the Reds to see what happened. .

[/COLOR][/B]


Nice. In terms of historical context, last night was a once in a lifetime event. I'm glad I saw it, even if you can't appreciate what happened.

I HATE dayton.


Here is the real answer Kahns. It's none of your business how many games I went to, because I could care less about you calling me a bandwagon fan and it's ludicrous for you to judge anyone for their level of fanaticism.
.

So you can tell me I "just don't get it", I "can't get beyond my emotoinal attachement" or I "can't appreciate it", all relative judgements of my baseball fandom, and pretty condescending ones at that. I suppose I'm to believe that you have a superior appreciation of the game.

But if I call you a bandwagon fan, it's ludicrous, around the bend or asinine. If you're opposed to people discussing opinions of other's level of fandom, maybe you should start by keeping yours to yourself.

[GoMuskies]

At least we didn't have to wait long for the first hit in Game 2!

[waggy]

Should've gotten more than 1 in the 2nd, but at least they did get the 1.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Giggity. That's the way to start Redlegs!

[GoMuskies]

Dear Joey Votto:

Please start acting like the MVP.

Thanks.

[GoMuskies]

Brandon Phillips screwed me. I had a prop bet on Jay Bruce at 18-1 to hit the first homerun of the game. Cost me $90. I think I'll get over it.

That was a BOMB from Bruce.

[xsteve1]

Bruce Yard...best player on the Reds in the last month. 3-0.

[DoubleD86]

You know, I will gladly accept that decade that Oswalt dominated the Reds while we sucked for this one game of beating Oswalt....when it matters!

[X-band '01]

You know, I will gladly accept that decade that Oswalt dominated the Reds while we sucked for this one game of beating Oswalt....when it matters!

Just like Mississippi State - MSU swept a 3-game regular season series against the Muskies but Xavier's lone win came in the postseason. That's a tradeoff that everyone will take.

[GoMuskies]

What an epic choke job by the defense in the 5th. Pathetic.

[X-band '01]

2 unearned runs ain't good, but there could have been more damage had Utley doubled and Howard managed a hit. They said hitters against Arroyo with the bases loaded were 7-13 this season; at least the Reds have a shot at getting 1 more inning out of him before the bullpen takes over.

[GoMuskies]

Reds seem to be intent on pissing this one away.

[gladdenguy]

What an epic choke job by the defense in the 5th. Pathetic.

Especially Rolen....the ball was right to him....phillips had a tough play to his left.....damn...bronson pitched a good game.
This isn't good for my heart.

[GoMuskies]

bronson pitched a good game.


Bronson pitched a GREAT game. Should have been 6 shutout innings.

My guess is that Chapman struggles with his control here. Hope I'm wrong.

[GoMuskies]

WTF is Scott Rolen doing tonight? He's killing us.

[GoMuskies]

Seriously?!? This is Little League bullshit.

[drudy23]

Pissing down the leg....jesus.

Thank God I'm a Xavier fan...don't know how I'd survive Cincinnati sports without it.

[Kahns Krazy]

22 come from behind wins in the last at bat. This would be an excellent time to make it 23.

[GoMuskies]

So, are there any Reds fans that are just thrilled they were able to see this performance, too?

[DoubleD86]

‎6 BB, 4 E, 3 HBP.....I would have rather gotten no-hit again....

[rhyno2110]

this series was over before it started. I'll still be rooting for the Reds though in game 3 and so on.

I think the Reds should hire a yoga instructor before every game so they Reds don't look like they are going to choke away every game like Gregory does year in and year out in the a10 conference season.

[GuyFawkes38]

yeah, only 2 earned runs.

I really think Oswalt is overrated and will hurt the Phillies at some point.

[Porkopolis]

I feel like I've been kicked in the balls repeatedly by my own friends. This is the worst I've ever felt after a Reds game.

[THRILLHOUSE]

I feel like I've been kicked in the balls repeatedly by my own friends. This is the worst I've ever felt after a Reds game.

co-sign. I can't remember ever feeling so dejected after a reds game. We had this game won, pitching was great, had enough offense, but the defense screwed us. Scott Rolen has been especially atrocious offensively and defensively.

[GuyFawkes38]

co-sign. I can't remember ever feeling so dejected after a reds game. We had this game won, pitching was great, had enough offense, but the defense screwed us. Scott Rolen has been especially atrocious offensively and defensively.

The TBS broadcasters speculated about an injury to Rolen. Something must be up. He has slowly declined the 2nd half of the season.

Rolen has also not had a hit in Philly this year and only 2 at GABP.

[THRILLHOUSE]

The TBS broadcasters speculated about an injury to Rolen. Something must be up. He has slowly declined the 2nd half of the season.

Rolen has also not had a hit in Philly this year.

injury or not, there is no excuse for the defensive miscues he had tonight.

[XU 87]

Would anyone disagree with me if I said this is probably the biggest meltdown ever seen in the history of post season baseball? In a period of three innings, the Reds had 4 errors, hit 3 batters, and walked at least two. In addition, Brandon Phillips dropped a ball at second on a steal and Rolen threw to the wrong base.

I can't think of a time when I was ever more disappointed with a team.

[AdamtheFlyer]

The Phillies scored a run where the guy quite possibly didn't get to first, second, or third base legitimately. Utley wasn't hit by the pitch, may have been out at second and didn't touch third. Every time one of my teams suffers a bad beat I think it will get easier to take.

Hasn't happened yet.

[Porkopolis]

Every time one of my teams suffers a bad beat I think it will get easier to take.

Hasn't happened yet.

And you sure have had a lot of practice. ;)

[THRILLHOUSE]

Would anyone disagree with me if I said this is probably the biggest meltdown ever seen in the history of post season baseball?

2004 yankees blowing a 3-0 ALCS series lead to the Red Sox.

[PM Thor]

Every time one of my teams suffers a bad beat I think it will get easier to take.

Hasn't happened yet.

But you should be so used to it by now...BOOM.

As for tonights game, THAT was an embarassment. 4 errors? 2 on, no outs, and nothing? Nobody even thought to challenge the Philly guy who missed third base? The only bright spot was Arroyo, he pitched a Hell of a game.

I HATE dayton.

[THRILLHOUSE]

The only bright spot was Arroyo, he pitched a Hell of a game.

I HATE dayton.

I thought Chapman was fine. He did not hit Utley and it was the defense that screwed him.

[XU 87]

Chapman didn't hit him. That said, it was an 0-2 count so it was pretty ridiculous that he even threw a pitch half an inch from Utley. But Rhodes hit a guy on a 1-2 pitch, after Phillips dropped the throw on the steal. And then Ondrusek hit the next guy up on, I think, an 0-2 pitch. Ondrusek then walked then next guy just to try to top hitting the previous guy.

But I'm not sure I'll ever again see a major league baseball team that hits three batters in two innings in a close game. I also doubt I'll see a major league team commit 4 errors in the same innings.

This was like watching my son's little league game where if someone hits the ball it's a safe bet the player gets on base.

I hate to say it but the Reds just choked. And it was a team effort.

[chico]

Would anyone disagree with me if I said this is probably the biggest meltdown ever seen in the history of post season baseball? In a period of three innings, the Reds had 4 errors, hit 3 batters, and walked at least two. In addition, Brandon Phillips dropped a ball at second on a steal and Rolen threw to the wrong base.

I can't think of a time when I was ever more disappointed with a team.

I'd agree, unless you want to count Dusty's Giants against the Angels in 2002.

That was just plain painful to watch. Has a team ever done less to come back from 4 down to win a game? The only hits they had were singles, they got 5 free runs.

[rhyno2110]

But you should be so used to it by now...BOOM.

As for tonights game, THAT was an embarassment. 4 errors? 2 on, no outs, and nothing? Nobody even thought to challenge the Philly guy who missed third base? The only bright spot was Arroyo, he pitched a Hell of a game.

I HATE dayton.

You're right, Arroyo was the only bright spot. But I wouldn't call 5 1/3 innings pitched, a hell of a performance. He gave them a chance, but even with the quality of the Reds bullpen, you can't force the 'pen to use 4 pitchers in 2 2/3 innings. A blogger for the Baltimore Orioles that I follow uses a great analogy for this situation: When you use to many 'pen pitchers in a game, one of them is bound to drop the baton. Not all of them will have their stuff on the same night.

[GuyFawkes38]

Would anyone disagree with me if I said this is probably the biggest meltdown ever seen in the history of post season baseball? In a period of three innings, the Reds had 4 errors, hit 3 batters, and walked at least two. In addition, Brandon Phillips dropped a ball at second on a steal and Rolen threw to the wrong base.

Come on now. It's the second game of a 1st round series in which the meltdown team would likely lose the series anyway.

This doesn't come close to being the biggest meltdown in MLB playoffs.

I know it's a tough loss, but Cincy fans are losing perspective.

[XU 87]

I know it's a tough loss, but Cincy fans are losing perspective.

The Reds were winning 4-0 and then lost by committing 4 errors, walking two batters, hitting three batters (all three times when the pitcher was ahead of the count), dropping a throw on a steal and then throwing to the wrong base. And this was all done in three innings.

So give me some perspective.

[GuyFawkes38]

The Reds were winning 4-0 and then lost by committing 4 errors, walking two batters, hitting three batters (all three times when the pitcher was ahead of the count), dropping a throw on a steal and then throwing to the wrong base. And this was all done in three innings.

So give me some perspective.

I guess if you looked at each playoff game individually and in an absolute sense, it's a solid meltdown.

Even then, the meltdown happened in the middle part of the game. That's okay, but meltdowns in the 8th and 9th innings are better meltdowns.

But context matters. It's the 2nd game of a 1st round series in which everyone expects the Reds to lose.

[XU 87]

I
But context matters. It's the 2nd game of a 1st round series in which everyone expects the Reds to lose.

So if you're the underdog it's no big deal to absolutely choke away a win in the worst possible way?

If the Reds win, they're coming home tied 1-1 with a reasonable chance to win the series. Now....

[GuyFawkes38]

So if you're the underdog it's acceptable to absolutely choke away a win in the worst possible way?

If the Reds win, they're coming home tied 1-1 with a real chance to win the series. Now....

even if the Reds won, they'd still be underdogs.

I was just thinking about some great meltdowns (from the Bartman fiasco to Pujols hitting a homer against Brad Lidge to Bill Buckner's error). I can't recall a meltdown that occured in an opening round series. That matters.

[XU 87]

even if the Reds won, they'd still be underdogs.

I was just thinking about some great meltdowns (from the Bartman fiasco to Pujols hitting a homer against Brad Lidge to Bill Buckner's error). I can't recall a meltdown that occured in an opening round series. That matters.

You're talking about one play. This was about 11 terrible plays in three innings. That's what made this meltdown so incredible.

[GuyFawkes38]

You're talking about one play. This was about 11 terrible plays in three innings. That's what made this meltdown so incredible.

There are probably much more knowledgeable MLB fans on this board than myself. Maybe it does rank high up there because of the duration of the meltdown. But IMHO, it doesn't. And I think Cubs fan would object. It wasn't really the specific Bartman play that hurt the Cubs. It was the 10 awful innings of play after. Bartman brought back the curse on the brink of a World Series appearance.

Just looking at my twitter feed, I think Cincy fans are going overboard with the entire "Cincinnati has a playoff curse" idea. The bottom line is that Cincy's two professional teams have had bad owners who didn't take their franchises to the playoffs often and when they do, they are often not as strong as the other playoff teams.

[SixFig]

Baseball is a humbling game. Last week Jay Bruce was the toast of the town. Now he is the goat.

In baseball winning a WS is a 2-3 year process. You gotta crawl before you can walk. I remember Game 5 1995 ALDS after the Yankees blew a two game lead to Seattle. Then they blew the lead in the 9th as seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzMgO-mrarU).The next year the Yanks won the WS...and beat a team that was probably better in the Atlanta Braves.

Win or lose this series the Reds are set up nicely for the next few years with a great young rotation, solid lineup, and good manager/GM. My advice to Reds fans: stay strong, SHOW UP TO THE BALLPARK, and never give up because every game is a new game.

Momentum begins with the next day's starting pitcher.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I thought Chapman was fine. He did not hit Utley and it was the defense that screwed him.

Exactly. When Chapman pitches from the stretch, he's a lot more hittable. His velocity isn't as fast and he can't really hide the ball as well.

This game was deeply frustrating.

5 Unearned runs, walks, HBP's, Errors...

Just an ugly ugly game. What a waste of a great start by Arroyo.

Interesting Note: the Phillies are batting .203 for the series.

This series was within our grasp. Lots of mistakes games 1 and 2. It's not over yet, but looking at the odds, its very close to it being

[THRILLHOUSE]

There are probably much more knowledgeable MLB fans on this board than myself. Maybe it does rank high up there because of the duration of the meltdown. But IMHO, it doesn't. And I think Cubs fan would object. It wasn't really the specific Bartman play that hurt the Cubs. It was the 10 awful innings of play after. Bartman brought back the curse on the brink of a World Series appearance.

Just looking at my twitter feed, I think Cincy fans are going overboard with the entire "Cincinnati has a playoff curse" idea. The bottom line is that Cincy's two professional teams have had bad owners who didn't take their franchises to the playoffs often and when they do, they are often not as strong as the other playoff teams.

*gulp* I actually agree with Guy. Yeah last nights Reds meltdown was bad and might rank up there, but the Cubs were 4 outs away from the world series and completely fell apart. The Yankees blowing a 3-0 series lead to Boston was also worse.

[xsteve1]

Interesting Note: the Phillies are batting .203 for the series.



The only guy on the Phillies that scares me right now is the Flyin Hawaiian, Shane Victorino. We just can't get him out.

[gladdenguy]

It pisses me off because the fans in Philadelphia are the poorest excuses for fans in any sport......below trash. Give me Yankee fans over Philly fans. Buttholes are cleaner than Philly fans.

[X-band '01]

Brooks Conrad may have just cost the Braves a 2-1 lead in their series; he has 3 errors tonight, including a Leon Durham-esque gaffe that allowed the Giants to score the goahead run in the top of the 9th.

20 minutes to go for the Reds...

[BlueX]

Braves/Giants has been a great series. Now let's hope the Reds can comeback.

[GoMuskies]

Cabrera is hurt and killing the team, and even the fans are making disappointing decisions (it's unlikely Stubbs could have caught that ball anyway, but you'd like to see the home fans give him a chance). This is a brutal series for us Reds fans.

[X-band '01]

I hope it wasn't Thor catching the home run ball - after all, it was a historic moment. It was the first postseason HR in Great American Ball Park.

[blobfan]

Cabrera is hurt and killing the team, and even the fans are making disappointing decisions (it's unlikely Stubbs could have caught that ball anyway, but you'd like to see the home fans give him a chance). This is a brutal series for us Reds fans.

I'd hate to be one of those guys and have to go into the office tomorrow.

[GoMuskies]

it was a historic moment

True. I just feel fortunate to have been able to see it.

[GoMuskies]

The Reds remind me of Dayton: they used to be good, but now they almost never reach the postseason. And when they do, they soil themselves.

[GuyFawkes38]

That ended fittingly with Votto and Rolen as the last two batters. The Reds relied on them most of the year and needed better performances.

I think the pitching will be solid next year. The Reds really need to beef up their batting. They are way too reliant on Votto.

Overall, a really great year for the Reds. Dusty did a great job managing and most of the players surpassed expectations.

[waggy]

I think they're going to have to find a replacement for Rolen. He moves like a dog ready to be put down.

[drudy23]

This series reminded me of the Duke regular season game a couple of years ago. All the hype and it was over like that.

What a collasal let-down.

[XU 87]

Despite the outcome of this series, I still think Dusty should be manager of the year. Before the season started, no one thought this team had any chance to win the division.

[THRILLHOUSE]

I think they're going to have to find a replacement for Rolen. He moves like a dog ready to be put down.

yeah, Rolen was a big part of us getting to the postseason, but unfortunately his age showed down the stretch and especially so in the playoffs.

[GuyFawkes38]

Who should back up Votto?

Votto hits left handed pitchers well. But still, I think they need an additional good right handed bat to back up Votto (or play Rolen much less, so he might be fresh for another playoff run).

[PM Thor]

I hope it wasn't Thor catching the home run ball - after all, it was a historic moment. It was the first postseason HR in Great American Ball Park.

You can grab a big bag of suck and smack yourself in the head with it.

The series was a collosal disaster, but the season as a whole was definitely a surprising success. Here's to hoping they make some good decisions in terms of roster spots over the winter.

I HATE dayton.

[XU 87]

The series was a collosal disaster, but the season as a whole was definitely a surprising success.
I HATE dayton.

I think that prettty much sums up the season.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I told my brother in law and am honestly starting to believe with each passing day that the next major Champion out of the city of Cincinnati will be the Xavier men's basketball team.

This weekend was just brutal for Cincinnati pro sports. I went from yelling and screaming Friday night to being a numb defeated Cincinnati fan this evening. Brutal.

[GuyFawkes38]

I'm beginning to think that Colin Cowherd was sort of right about Cincinnati fans being myopic. Reds fans should be thrilled about the season, regardless of the playoffs performance.

The Reds haven't made the playoffs in 15 years. No one expected it. And they were heavy underdogs this series.

[Masterofreality]

WTF was THAT?

Going down without a wimper. Linda Lovelace would be proud of that performance.

At least when the Cleveland Indians make a playoff appearance, they'll win one series- or at least win a couple of games to make it interesting. They even beat the Yankees 3 years ago. The Reds start out by being no-hit then they no win. Pathetic.

As I documented, the Reds are my first baseball love, but I'm not sure what was more embarrassing- the Reds' on the field performance, or the "oh well, it was a decent season" attitude of the fans and those on this board. DC Muskie is right on to call guys out.

You don't go through 162 games, win your division, then fold up like a cheap tent. The Borecats are deservedly called out for their past one-and-dones. The paper champion Reds should be also. Looks like they just quit after the regular season was over.

Want to see a baseball team with some heart? Check out Tampa Bay. Lose the first two at home then rally back to tie the series.

[XU 87]

[QUOTE=Masterofreality;215044
As I documented, the Reds are my first baseball love, but I'm not sure what was more embarrassing- the Reds' on the field performance, or the "oh well, it was a decent season" attitude of the fans and those on this board. DC Muskie is right on to call guys out.

[/QUOTE]

So are we supposed to say, "I don't care that we won the division. We sucked in the playoffs. Therefore, the season sucked."? Or do you say,"We had a great run. We sucked in the playoffs. But we still had a great run."?

When the David West team lost to Marlyand in the second round, getting down by about 17 in the first half, I still thought X had a good season. I bet you did too.

[Jumpy]

So are we supposed to say, "I don't care that we won the division. We sucked in the playoffs. Therefore, the season sucked."? Or do you say,"We had a great run. We sucked in the playoffs. But we still had a great run."?

When the David West team lost to Marlyand in the second round, getting down by about 17 in the first half, I still thought X had a good season. I bet you did too.

I think the latter is the more appropriate viewpoint. We can view the regualr and post seasons seperate from each other. They exceeded original expectations for the regular seasons, but with that came revised expectations for the post season. They sucked butt in the post season, which disappoints me.

[Porkopolis]

Want to see a baseball team with some heart? Check out Tampa Bay. Lose the first two at home then rally back to tie the series.
Tampa Bay also has pitching the Reds can only dream of.

[chico]

The Reds had a great season but the postseason taught them what they need to do to get to the next level.

They may not have the pitching now but in a couple years when Chapman, Wood and Leake are more seasoned look out.

They need to package a starter (Cueto maybe?) with Alonzo and get a young third baseman with some pop. I love Scott Rolen but he was playing hurt the entire second half of the year and you can't expect the same production nest year.

[Juice]

The Reds had a great season but the postseason taught them what they need to do to get to the next level.

They may not have the pitching now but in a couple years when Chapman, Wood and Leake are more seasoned look out.

They need to package a starter (Cueto maybe?) with Alonzo and get a young third baseman with some pop. I love Scott Rolen but he was playing hurt the entire second half of the year and you can't expect the same production nest year.

Todd Frazier had a so so season in Louisville this year because of a horrendous start of the year, but he was rated the best prospect in the Reds system before the year began and before Aroldis got here. He can play 3rd, 1st, and LF. I would look to him being Rolen's replacement. I don't see Juan Francisco being anything more than a bat off the bench because of his horrible strikeout to walk ratio and below average abilities in the field.

[muskienick]

I'm beginning to think that Colin Cowherd was sort of right about Cincinnati fans being myopic. Reds fans should be thrilled about the season, regardless of the playoffs performance.

The Reds haven't made the playoffs in 15 years. No one expected it. And they were heavy underdogs this series.

Cowherd assumed that Reds fans were sold on the idea that we'd be putting up another World Series banner this year. I believe it was more reasonable to think that we were pleasantly pleased and quite surprised at the Reds' NL Central Chanpionship. Few, if any, fans with any knowledge of MLB in general and the Reds in particular would have given Cincinnati much chance at an NL Championship much less a World Series Victory.

[XU 87]

I think Frazier is a decent player but he doesn't hit for a ton of power (15-18 per year).

[Masterofreality]

So are we supposed to say, "I don't care that we won the division. We sucked in the playoffs. Therefore, the season sucked."? Or do you say,"We had a great run. We sucked in the playoffs. But we still had a great run."?

When the David West team lost to Marlyand in the second round, getting down by about 17 in the first half, I still thought X had a good season. I bet you did too.

No, actually I was embarrassed and pissed and I expressed it on the old boards. Beaknose refused to change his defensive philosophy up and we got torched. That team should have gone farther. We fell behind by 17 because Gary Williams absolutely schooled Toucan. Xavier was ranked #12 in the country going into that game. Xavier's talent present was proven the next year, but with POY DWest, they should have never lost like they did.

I guess Pinocchio learned from that as we did get to the E-8 the following year. Yeah, it was a nice regular season in 2002-2003, but it didn't lessen the angry and hollow feeling I was left with when CBS switched off of the XU/Maryland game. I wasn't satisfied. I wanted more.

[drudy23]

No, actually I was embarrassed and pissed and I expressed it on the old boards. Beaknose refused to change his defensive philosophy up and we got torched. That team should have gone farther. We fell behind by 17 because Gary Williams absolutely schooled Toucan. Xavier was ranked #12 in the country going into that game. Xavier's talent present was proven the next year, but with POY DWest, they should have never lost like they did.

I guess Pinocchio learned from that as we did get to the E-8 the following year. Yeah, it was a nice regular season in 2002-2003, but it didn't lessen the angry and hollow feeling I was left with when CBS switched off of the XU/Maryland game. I wasn't satisfied. I wanted more.

Beaknose, Pinochio, and Toucan all in the same post...what about Gargamel?

[THRILLHOUSE]

WTF was THAT?

Going down without a wimper. Linda Lovelace would be proud of that performance.



Or maybe Roy Halladay and Cole Hamels are really, really, really, really good. Yeah sure we all would've like to see the Reds win a game or two, but the Phillies are just a lot better.

Fun little fact for you: the 2007 Philadelphia Phillies got swept in the NLDS by the Colorado Rockies. I wonder what happened to them in the seasons after? Oh yeah, they only became the best NL team since the Big Red Machine.

To say that the Reds are pathetic for getting swept by a dominant team is just plain dumb. The Reds are in a good position to have long term success. I am happy with this season and look forward to a very bright future.

[Smails]

I didn't realize there was some sort of rule book or 'accpeted guideline' for how fans are supposed to react to a season ending loss. I always laugh when fans of one program tell the fans of another program how they are supposed to act in victory and defeat.

Reds fans have every right to be happy with the season and encouraged for the future, to suggest otherwise is just plain silly. I've had a blast for 6 months following this team and yes, I'm pissed at the way the DS played out but what? Am I supposed to revert to hating on them and calling them names? That just doesn't make much sense to me.

[DC Muskie]

I think people who accept that a season was successful after an embarrassing end to their season are people who aren't used to success. I can completely understand and even agree with it.

It was a great season for the Reds. Unfortunately it should have stopped on October 3rd. There is nothing wrong with feeling good about everything that happened before October 4th rolled along.

But the way baseball is set up, I wouldn't be out there holding out hope for the future. Especially if your team hasn't made the playoffs in 15 years. I never understood the thinking about being excited about an opportunity that might not ever come, simply because you crapped the bed in your current opportunity. Especially when it comes to professional sports.

Our friends in Dayton have mastered the idea that things are always good given a certain perspective, and next year will always look better, because frankly, it's not the present.

Good luck to the Reds. I wish they had given the Trash more a fight.

[DC Muskie]

Fun little fact for you: the 2007 Philadelphia Phillies got swept in the NLDS by the Colorado Rockies. I wonder what happened to them in the seasons after? Oh yeah, they only became the best NL team since the Big Red Machine.

Fun fact for you as well..

The Cubs were also swept in that NLDS series that year.

They followed it up by getting swept again by the Dodgers in 2008.

I guess that means the Cubs are about ready to win their first series in over 100 years.

Do I have that correct?

Also, to claim that the Trash is the best NL team since the Big Red Machine is not a fact, let alone fun.

[DC Muskie]

Fun fact for you as well..

The Cubs were also swept in that NLDS series that year.

They followed it up by getting swept again by the Dodgers in 2008.

I guess that means the Cubs are about ready to win their first series in over 100 years.

Do I have that correct?

Also, to claim that the Trash is the best NL team since the Big Red Machine is not a fact, let alone fun.

We can even take this to the AL.

Minnesota was swept in ALDS in 2006, 2009, and 2010. Boston was swept last year, by a team that didn't make the playoffs either!

[DC Muskie]

I wonder how Ranger fans feel. They haven't won a home playoff game....

EVER.

Getting swept in the ALDS in '98 and '99 sure led to bigger and better things after that.

I mean they had Ivan Rodriguez and Juan Gonzalez. Aaron Sele won 18 games in 1999.

Oh snap they were 20 games below .500 in 2000.

And 17 games under in 2001

And 18 games in 2002.

And 20 in 2003

Okay I'll stop. Sorry.

[chico]

I know what you're getting at, DC, but as fans don't you expect things to get better each year? My feeling isn't, "oh crap, we're not getting back here for a while," not when you have the young nucleus of talent this team has. Yeah, Maybe Vottos will suddenly stop hitting and maybe Bruce will decide he wants to be this team's Adam Dunn and maybe Volquez's arm will fall apart and Chapman's will just fall off when he tries to throw 110. But even if you look at things objectively you still are hard pressed to think this team won't get better. As a fan, I'm not happy that they lost, but I'm pretty optimistic about the future of this team. Now, if I was a Rays fan this year, or a Pirates fan in 1991 knowing this was our last best chance for a while, my mood would be different

I really can't remember how I felt in 1983 when Xavier won the MCC and made their first NCAA tourney in 20 years. I suspect, though, that those who really followed the team back then were thrilled to make it back, and even though losing to Alcorn was not what they wanted, still felt the season was a success and that better times were ahead.

[nuts4xu]

But the way baseball is set up, I wouldn't be out there holding out hope for the future. Especially if your team hasn't made the playoffs in 15 years. I never understood the thinking about being excited about an opportunity that might not ever come


You are right. This Reds team is absolute garbage.

Forget the fact we led the National League in hitting average, home runs, RBI's, etc, why would that give any one reason to be excited about next year? You have guys like Votto, Phillips, Bruce, and Stubbs who are 3+ years away from free agency...any reasonable baseball fan would know these young guys are going to get old in 15 years, so why in the hell would anyone think next year will be any good?

And of the pitchers on the current staff, I think we only have maybe 12 guys with good stuff, the rest suck ass. There is no reason to think they will come back and pitch as good or better.

We made the playoffs for the first time in 15 years but we choked, so the rest of the past 6 months is irrelevant. Why in the hell are any of our fans the least bit optimistic about next year, is beyond me.

I plan to burn my gear and immediately begin rooting for some other team who has an even worse chance to make it to the post season next year.

[Smails]

Okay I'll stop. Sorry.

Cummon DC... Do you want us all to be wet blankets and not be excited about a team that finally looks like it has a plan to compete over a decent stretch? The 2010 season is over for the Reds. I can go the route of optimisim for the future, or smart for the next 6 months over why we were overpowered by the Phillies...I'd rather not be miserable.

I'm not predicting World Series next year, but even a Reds hater (which I know you're not) would have a hard time convincing someone that this team isn't in pretty damn good shape for the next 2-5 years.

[DC Muskie]

I'm not really going to argue the entire Xavier basketball and Cincinnati Reds seasons are the same, because they are two entirely different beasts.

Baseball is set up where you can own the Pittsburgh Pirates and not win since 1992 and make money. Or you can own the Detroit Tigers, win but lose money.

One team spends like crazy to win, the other fires managers every other year to make sure people know they have managers to fire.

I'm all about being positive. Don't get me wrong. But the Reds totally and completely sucked this past week. And this is the worst week to suck completely. If you somehow think that this is the beginning of something tremendous, then I say good for you. Having been a fan of a professional baseball team in reality, I know that is not the case.

If you are just interested in making the playoffs, then this was fantastic. If you were interested in winning anything in the playoffs, then this would have been extremely frustrating.

All I'm saying is, I don't take playoff appearances for granted. Or think that 11 months from now things will be even better because Jay Bruce would catch a routine fly ball in game two of the NLDS.

What I read from Reds fans is not surprising. Cincinnati used to be a great baseball town. But baseball did a pretty good job of killing it in Cincinnati in my opinion.

everybody has a bright future. Hell even the Nats do. But it's okay to be pissed at the performance the Reds put on. Especially with how much smack comes out of their mouths during the season.

Oh you guys hate the Cardinals? Great you beat them? Awesome, how did you do in the playoffs? Oh we had more errors then runs.

Plllibbbbsbsszzzzz...

[waggy]

Really I think being an Indian fan has affected your perspective in some way.

[DC Muskie]

Cummon DC... Do you want us all to be wet blankets and not be excited about a team that finally looks like it has a plan to compete over a decent stretch? The 2010 season is over for the Reds. I can go the route of optimisim for the future, or smart for the next 6 months over why we were overpowered by the Phillies...I'd rather not be miserable.

I'm not predicting World Series next year, but even a Reds hater (which I know you're not) would have a hard time convincing someone that this team isn't in pretty damn good shape for the next 2-5 years.

No of course not, but reading how great it is just to watch a playoff game, especially in Cincinnati, just tells me how far off the baseball map that city has fallen.

Nothing is guaranteed. But at least put up a fight. Win a game. Blow a game in the 9th at least. Make it at least interesting.

And 5 years? Wow, that's great. 5 years is a lifetime in baseball. I'd be shocked if Dusty was still managing that team in 5 years. Or in two years for that matter.

We got guys here who are claiming the Phillies to be the best team since the Reds meant something in baseball.

This Trash team was in third place in July. To read what people thought about being no hit...holy cow.

I mean you're all surprised and glad this team made the playoffs, and then turn around and tell me that now the expectation has now changed.

I hope they are good. But nothing suggests to me that next year a playoff spot is guaranteed either.

[Masterofreality]

Awesome, how did you do in the playoffs? Oh we had more errors then runs.

Plllibbbbsbsszzzzz...

Hell, in game one the Reds had more errors than hits!

[BandAid]

Wait, are you guys really arguing whether or not making the playoffs constitutes success in baseball?

Thank God there's only two more weeks until Muskie Madness...

[DC Muskie]

Or maybe Roy Halladay and Cole Hamels are really, really, really, really good.

Is Cole Hamels really as good as Halladay?

Did the trash trade for Halladay and Oswalt and pushed Hamels, their young stud to the third position, because they thought just having Cole is enough?

In 5 seasons he is just 15 more wins than losses. Is that really, really, really, really, really good?

I'm not sure. The guy was 10-11 in 2009 and killing my fantasy team.

This year he was 12-10 and Reds fans think he's the left handed Jesus.

[DoubleD86]

I don't get the whole "The Reds absolutely sucked at everything argument."

I don't have the stats in front of me, but didn't they only give up like 4 ER and a batting average of .212 to the Phillies, who have the best lineup (other than Reds possibly) in the NL? Didn't they hold them to only 3 or 4 extra base hits the entire series? Didn't they go a stretch of 12 or so innings without giving up a hit?

Yes it was disappointing, but our pitchers absolutely killed their hitters. Period. Unfortunately, their pitchers destroyed our hitters and our defense evaporated.

To even try to argue that Reds fans are somehow in the wrong to be proud of what the team did this year and excited for the future is insane. To that logic Xavier fans should never be excited about a recruit, never be excited about the potential improvements of a player and never be excited about what a team could do in the future, because it is just an opportunity that may never come. Is that what you are saying?

With Phillips, Stubbs, Bruce, and Votto along with Cueto, Volquez, Wood, Leake, Bailey, Chapman, etc. The Reds have a wonderful group of young talent who also now have some experience and (hopefully) a chip on their shoulder. They also, from all accounts I have heard, have the desire and mindset to continue to improve. Whoever said it earlier is exactly right, use Yonder Alonso + Bailey/Wood/Leake + another minor leaguer and go get a big bat for the middle of the lineup. Probably need to look into replacing Rolen, and personally I would rather play Janish than Cabrera, but that's just me. In doing so you have a very good rotation, a very good lineup, and a deep bench again.

Then again, we shouldn't hope or be excited for an opportunity that may not happen....yet somehow we are allowed to assume/be excited for growth or future prospects of Xavier Basketball? Absurd....

[DoubleD86]

Is Cole Hamels really as good as Halladay?

Did the trash trade for Halladay and Oswalt and pushed Hamels, their young stud to the third position, because they thought just having Cole is enough?

In 5 seasons he is just 15 more wins than losses. Is that really, really, really, really, really good?

I'm not sure. The guy was 10-11 in 2009 and killing my fantasy team.

This year he was 12-10 and Reds fans think he's the left handed Jesus.

Your hatred for the Phillies is clearly skewing your objectivity on this subject.

Hamels is one of the better left handed pitchers in baseball. He also pitched against a lineup notorious for struggling against left-handers.

Also, that means Oswalt is very, very, very, very good, because the Phillies started him in front of Hamels right? Or does he suck too because they put him behind Halladay? The Reds get no credit for hitting Oswalt?

And how is adding two great pitchers somehow a poor reflection on Hamels? They added Halladay and Oswalt so they could be dominant in a short series, not because Hamels isn't good. They did it so they could sweep a series only going to the bullpen once. Their pitching is dominant and by far the best in the playoffs. Those three are better than any other three man rotation in baseball.

[DC Muskie]

Double-

If I may....First off that was the first passionate response about this series from a Reds fan I have read. Thanks.

Second, let's just get rid of this entire Xavier/ Reds analogy, or else I'm going to start talking about the potential of my nephew's baseball team over the next decade because he is eight.

Xavier has a completely different road to their championship glory and the team has built on a success for pretty much the entire time the Reds have not been playing past the first weekend in October.

I was pissed about the 2003 Xavier loss. I was pissed because Maryland absolutely sucked that year and got to play that game on a last second shot. So for 2003, I wasn't glad that we were able to beat Dayton. I can of expect that.

Xavier has built an expectation of winning. Now am I to expect the Reds are going to win, simply because no one expected them to win this year and they did? How does logic follow that?

On one hand you've got so much talent on this team that you need to take pieces of that and trade it for a third baseman. I find this funny since they just lost to a team who moved a gold glove second baseman to third. Which is it?

I just showed you time and time again that winning one year doesn't mean you continue to move up the food chain.

You know who has great young talent year after year? The Marlins. Where's that get them?

[DC Muskie]

Your hatred for the Phillies is clearly skewing your objectivity on this subject.

Hamels is one of the better left handed pitchers in baseball. He also pitched against a lineup notorious for struggling against left-handers.

Also, that means Oswalt is very, very, very, very good, because the Phillies started him in front of Hamels right? Or does he suck too because they put him behind Halladay? The Reds get no credit for hitting Oswalt?

And how is adding two great pitchers somehow a poor reflection on Hamels? They added Halladay and Oswalt so they could be dominant in a short series, not because Hamels isn't good. They did it so they could sweep a series only going to the bullpen once. Their pitching is dominant and by far the best in the playoffs. Those three are better than any other three man rotation in baseball.

No actually I see Hamels pitch more than once an October against my team.

I'm not kidding, what is the difference between him and Matt Cain? Hamels is a year older and left handed. Other than that, nothing. But somehow Hamels is awesome. From a fantasy stand point, no one touched Hamels this year and his numbers proved it. That game he threw the other night against the Reds, his best outing in who knows how long.

The Reds made history. They got shut out twice in NLDS. Shut out by a guy who won 12 games this year.

Your point about Oswalt is right on. The Reds literally threw that game away. I guess Oswalt should be considered the next Walter Johnson for causing all of those errors.

Did you watch Hamels pitch last year? He was awful. He was awful this season. He was 7-7 before they traded for Oswalt. And you think they added him so they could win a short series in October. Let me be clear, they were six games behind in first when they traded for Oswalt. The Trash were concerned about getting to October not winning a series.

That's what I'm talking about. Cole Hamels according to Reds fans is the best pitcher ever. Why, because he pitched one game against them.

And now I'm supposed to be overly excited about the prospects of next season for the Reds, simply because if they are lucky, they will get to face the best three man rotation in baseball again next season? I'm sorry I think I'm the only one speaking objectively here.

By the way, I think the Giants have a pretty good rotation.

[XU 87]

I'm still a little confused about how Reds fans are supposed to feel about this season. Are we supposed to think that the entire season is a disaster because the playoffs were a disaster? Or can we think the season was great with a terrible ending in the playoffs?

And because of this season, and in light of all the young talent this team has, particularly at pitcher, are we allowed to be optimistic for next year? Or should we be pessimistic because the Reds got their ass kicked by the Phillies?

[XU 87]

.

Did you watch Hamels pitch last year? He was awful. He was awful this season. He was 7-7 before they traded for Oswalt.



Since August 29, Hamels was 5-1 with about a 1.50 ERA. So no, he wasn't awful this season. In fact, recently he has been one of the best pitchers in baseball.

[DC Muskie]

And just to go further with the Cole Hamels thing...

After they traded for Oswalt, who went out and lost his first game to your WASHINGTON NATIONALS! (I was there. Epic.), Cole went out and lost his next three outings, two to the Mets.

He finally turned himself around in September beating the Brewers, Marlins and Mets, lineups that were not the 1927 Yankees, or the 2010 Cincinnati Reds.

The idea that the trades for Halladay and Oswalt were to set up for the postseason is starting to piss me off.

Hamels pitched into the 9th once. And that was in May.

[DC Muskie]

Since August 29, Hamels was 5-1 with about a 1.50 ERA. So no, he wasn't awful this season. In fact, recently he has been one of the best pitchers in baseball.

Yup, destroying the Mets, Marlins and Brewers. His two starts before he clapped down the Reds, he last 6 innings, combined.

12-10 is 12-10.

Jonathan Sanchez went 4-1 in his last five starts in that time period as well.

He went 13-9 and had almost the exact same ERA as Hamels. Do you consider him one of the best pitchers in baseball?

[Masterofreality]

I'm still a little confused about how Reds are supposed to feel about this season. Are we supposed to think that the entire season is a disaster because the playoffs were a disaster? Or can we think the season was great with a terrible ending in the playoffs?

And because of this season, and in light of all the young talent this team has, particularly at pitcher, are we allowed to be optimistic for next year? Or should we be pessimistic because the Reds got their ass kicked by the Phillies?

Believe what you want to believe, but understand this:

One baseball year guarantees nothing the next year- not even the chance that you might be good.

In 2007 the Cleveland Indians had two, count 'em TWO Cy Young winners on staff- Sabathia and Lee- and Lee wasn't that good that year. They also had a ton of alleged "young talent" like Sizemore and Cabrera and we were led to believe that they were built for the long haul of a championship run. They beat the Yankees and blew a series against the Red Sox.

The next year? Bust. Then 2009 and 2010- 93 plus loss seasons. Sabathia and Lee long gone. Young talent gone. Misery ensues.

Moral. Unless your the freaking Yank-Me's, when you get the chance you'd better cash it in. If you don't, it's back to the baseball wilderness.

The Reds made the Playoffs then quit. Whether you can be proud of that or not is up to you. I guess that "Division Championship" flag is colorful on the flagpole. Lord knows, we've got 7 of those suckers in Cleveland. Nobody cares without the ultimate ring.

[DC Muskie]

I'm still a little confused about how Reds fans are supposed to feel about this season. Are we supposed to think that the entire season is a disaster because the playoffs were a disaster? Or can we think the season was great with a terrible ending in the playoffs?

And because of this season, and in light of all the young talent this team has, particularly at pitcher, are we allowed to be optimistic for next year? Or should we be pessimistic because the Reds got their ass kicked by the Phillies?

I will allow you to be happy for the success of the 2010 season because frankly you don't expect success. I mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. The season was good for you, because it's been 15 years since you got to experience anything like it.

The Trash could have destroyed you by 400 runs in each game and not allowed the Reds to take batting practice and you could still feel the same that the season was a successful one. Instead you got no hit, and had more errors then runs. No big deal, the season was still a success.

You should also feel excited about your pitching, especially your young pitching, because nothing is more stable in baseball then young pitching. Not that only that, but you have a manager who managed three great young pitching prospects when he managed them to no pennants or World Series titles. In fact as the years went on his teams went from 1st to 3rd to 4th to 6th. Those three great pitchers are now pitching in independent leagues, the bullpen and the one remaining is simply crazy.

So yes, be excited! It's all coming together!

[Porkopolis]

I will allow you to be happy for the success of the 2010 season because frankly you don't expect success. I mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. The season was good for you, because it's been 15 years since you got to experience anything like it.

The Trash could have destroyed you by 400 runs in each game and not allowed the Reds to take batting practice and you could still feel the same that the season was a successful one. Instead you got no hit, and had more errors then runs. No big deal, the season was still a success.

You should also feel excited about your pitching, especially your young pitching, because nothing is more stable in baseball then young pitching. Not that only that, but you have a manager who managed three great young pitching prospects when he managed them to no pennants or World Series titles. In fact as the years went on his teams went from 1st to 3rd to 4th to 6th. Those three great pitchers are now pitching in independent leagues, the bullpen and the one remaining is simply crazy.

So yes, be excited! It's all coming together!

Wow, thanks Mr. Sunshine! :)

[XU 87]

Yup, destroying the Mets, Marlins and Brewers. His two starts before he clapped down the Reds, he last 6 innings, combined.

12-10 is 12-10.

Jonathan Sanchez went 4-1 in his last five starts in that time period as well.

He went 13-9 and had almost the exact same ERA as Hamels. Do you consider him one of the best pitchers in baseball?


We're not talking about Jonathon Sanchez, who happens to be a very good pitcher; we're talking about Cole Hamels. You said "he was awful this season". No he wasn't. Not even close.

12-10 is not "12-10". Would you rather have a pitcher in October who was 5-1 with a 1.50 era in his last 6 starts or one who was 1-5 with a 5.50 era in his last 6 starts?

And you're argument that he pitched "6 innings in his last 2 starts" is wrong as well. Hamel pitched 2 innings in relief his last time out as a tune up for the playoffs. The 4 inning start was his one loss since August 29.

I'm not arguing that Hamel is ready for the Hall of Fame. He is not one of the premier pitchers in baseball. But the guy is a good pitcher who, in fact, has been one of the premiere pitchers in baseball over the last month. So your argument that he is "awful" is not supported by any facts whatsoever.

[DC Muskie]

Wow, thanks Mr. Sunshine! :)

Sorry, I just really, really wanted the Reds to win. If it's any consolation, both of my teams lost a combined 186 games this year.

So the Reds are waaaaaaaay better off!

[XU 87]

Just because Indians' fans have a terrible team to root for with no hope for the future doesn't then equate that Reds' fans should have the same shitty attitude.

[Masterofreality]

Just because Indians' fans have a terrible team to root for with no hope for the future doesn't then equate that Reds' fans shoould have the same shitty attitude.

My point '87 is that there wasn't a sheet attitude among the fan-base after 2007- even though the Indians threw away the Red Sox series. At least they competed. My own issues don't count.

Hey, this year had a horriffic end for the Reds but you be Mr. Brightside about next year. Just don't be surprised if this year's lightning in a bottle is just a firefly that dies quickly.

[XU 87]

Hey, this year had a horriffic end for the Reds but you be Mr. Brightside about next year.

So after winning the division, and with all the young talent coming back, the better attitude to have is that, in all liklihood, the Reds will suck next year?

I'm afraid all that losing in Cleveland has warped the Cleveland fan's mind.

[DC Muskie]

We're not talking about Jonathon Sanchez, who happens to be a very good pitcher; we're talking about Cole Hamels. You said "he was awful this season". No he wasn't. Not even close.

12-10 is not "12-10". Would you rather have a pitcher in October who was 5-1 with a 1.50era in his last 6 starts or one who was 1-5 with a 5.50 era in his last 6 starts?

And you're argument that he pitched "6 innings in his last 2 starts" is wrong as well. Hamel pitched 2 innings in relief his last time out as a tune up for the playoffs. The 4 inning start was his one loss since August 29.

I'm not arguing that Hamel is ready for the Hall of Fame. He is not one of the premier pitchers in baseball. But the guy is a good pitcher who, in fact, has been one of the premiere pitchers in baseball over the last month. So your argument that he is "awful" is not supported by any facts whatsoever.

I'm sorry 87, you must be watching an entirely different Cole Hamels. The October 3rd was a start. He lasted 2 innings. It was his scheduled start. Charlie must have thought his 4 inning outing was fine.

I'm not sure how you can from begin a good pitcher, at 7-10 on August 19th to a premiere pitcher by beating teams who aren't anywhere near being good.

I'm sorry by the way Cole was 12-11 this year. With that offense.

Roy Oswalt didn't record a decision in his last three starts, and the Reds hit him. And he was 7-1 since the Phillies got him. I think Oswalt is much, much better pitcher than Hamels.

[DC Muskie]

I'm afraid all that losing in Cleveland has warped the Cleveland fan's mind.

Now I'M confused.

Does being a Cincinnati fan give you some insight on how to support successful teams? Seeing how in the past 15 years the Indians had made 2 World Series, and won more division titles?

[XU 87]

I'm sorry 87, you must be watching an entirely different Cole Hamels. The October 3rd was a start. He lasted 2 innings. It was his scheduled start. Charlie must have thought his 4 inning outing was fine.



Upon further review, you're correct. He started on October 3 (last game of the season). But he didn't "last" for two innings, which implies he got knocked out of the game. He was scheduled to pitch 2 innings, which he did, and gave up no runs or hits. The start was, as one publication described it, basically the equivalent of a bullpen session to keep him fresh for the playoffs.

[THRILLHOUSE]

Also, to claim that the Trash is the best NL team since the Big Red Machine is not a fact, let alone fun.

Yes, they are. Only other team that can make a claim are the 90's Braves. Both had 3 Cy Young type of pitchers in their staff, but the 3 MVP's in the Phillies infield gives them the edge in my book. And I like the Phillies role players better than the Braves. Although I hate Jason Werth and wish nothing but bad things upon him.

[XU 87]

Now I'M confused.

Does being a Cincinnati fan give you some insight on how to support successful teams? Seeing how in the past 15 years the Indians had made 2 World Series, and won more division titles?

I'll see your 2 World Series appearances and raise you 3 World Series Championships since 1975.

And while I don't want to pile on, I did grow up watching what was arguably the greatest team in baseball history.

[DC Muskie]

I'll see your 2 World Series appearances and raise you 3 World Series Championships since 1975.

And while I don't want to pile on, I did grow up watching what was arguably the greatest team in baseball history.

Your post is exactly why reading how nice it was to be in the playoffs from Reds fans is downright pathetic.

You and Oriole fan could have a fun time reliving the 60's and 70's.

Seriously Reds fans are the new Dayton fans.

[DC Muskie]

Yes, they are. Only other team that can make a claim are the 90's Braves. Both had 3 Cy Young type of pitchers in their staff, but the 3 MVP's in the Phillies infield gives them the edge in my book. And I like the Phillies role players better than the Braves. Although I hate Jason Werth and wish nothing but bad things upon him.

Okay, the difference thrill is...

The Braves guys are going to the Hall of Fame. Cole Hamels needs to make more than one All Star appearance.

Seriously those Braves teams won what 14 titles in a row? The Phillies have yet to win 100 games a season. The Braves did it about 6 times I think.

Cole Hamels is now a Cy Young type of pitcher. Good Lord.

thank God he only had to pitch against the Reds once. If he got another shot and did well the Reds would be wondering why they weren't naming a street after him.

[DC Muskie]

Yes, they are. Only other team that can make a claim are the 90's Braves. Both had 3 Cy Young type of pitchers in their staff, but the 3 MVP's in the Phillies infield gives them the edge in my book. And I like the Phillies role players better than the Braves. Although I hate Jason Werth and wish nothing but bad things upon him.

By the way, stop giving awards to guys who haven't won it.

3 Cy Young awards 3 MVP's.

Jeez.

[vee4xu]

For all the banter back and forth both Indians fans and Reds fans are among all the rest not still playing. We are all watching. Doesn't matter if you're out of it by Mother's Day or win the division. Doesn't matter what you did 40 years ago, 30, 20 or 10 years ago. Doesn't matter what you did yesterday. If you don't win the 2010 World Series, you lost. It just takes some teams a bit longer to do so than others.

[chico]

Hamels may not be great, but he is very good and has the stuff to be great. He was not only the NLCS MVP but the Workd Series MVP in 2008. If success in October is so important, as you state, then this would have to count for something.

And looking at wins for a pitcher is just about the worst stat you can use and is probably the worst statistical indicator of how good a pitcher actually is. He had an ERA of just over 3. He gave up just under 2 walks/game, averaged a strikeout/inning, and had a WHIP of 1.179. I'll take that from my number 3 starter.

You liken Reds fans to UD fans but you bring up 2 WS appearances by your Indians. How many players from those famed Indians teams are still with the Tribe? And it's been 13 years since that last WS appearance, right?

Yeah, the Reds got their butts handed to them. And I know the window for a small market club to succeed is not the same as the Yankees or Red Sox. But if you can't see the young talent on this team and think they're favorites to go back to the postseason next year you're either in denial or just plain trying to be argumentative.

This team made the playoffs. The only people I see who are criticizing this team are fans of teams who were watching the Reds play. Talk about comparisons to UD fans.

[nuts4xu]

After some additional thought and time to come to grips with my feelings about the end of the 2010 Reds season, I have come to the following conclusion....

The Philadelphia Phillies, their fans, the pitching staff, and that goofy fu**er of a mascot can eat a BAG OF DICKS!!!!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/108309143_eb9fb9879e.jpg?v=0

[DC Muskie]

Hamels may not be great, but he is very good and has the stuff to be great. He was not only the NLCS MVP but the Workd Series MVP in 2008. If success in October is so important, as you state, then this would have to count for something.

And looking at wins for a pitcher is just about the worst stat you can use and is probably the worst statistical indicator of how good a pitcher actually is. He had an ERA of just over 3. He gave up just under 2 walks/game, averaged a strikeout/inning, and had a WHIP of 1.179. I'll take that from my number 3 starter.

This is what I love. Hamels carried them in 2008, but has a .500 the next two seasons, but he has a good WHIP, so that's got to count for something.

The guy hasn't pitched like he did in that 2008 postseason. To suggest otherwise is downright stupid. 10-11 12-11. Wins are horrible. Hilarious.


You liken Reds fans to UD fans but you bring up 2 WS appearances by your Indians. How many players from those famed Indians teams are still with the Tribe? And it's been 13 years since that last WS appearance, right?

Did yu actually read the exchange between me and 87? He went back 35 years to point out a championship. Jesus. My point was in 15 years the Indians have had much more success then the Reds. Do you disagree with that?


Yeah, the Reds got their butts handed to them.

Understatement.


But if you can't see the young talent on this team and think they're favorites to go back to the postseason next year you're either in denial or just plain trying to be argumentative.

I understand and agree the Reds have good young talent on this team. They should be favorites. But we went from "NOBODY EXPECTED US TO WIN" to "NOW EVERYONE EXPECT US TO WIN!" This happened in a matter of 4 days where they looked awful and Cole Hamels is being compared to Cy Young pitcher that he is not.


This team made the playoffs. The only people I see who are criticizing this team are fans of teams who were watching the Reds play.

I watched the Reds swing and miss. I watched the Reds throw the ball around the infield and I saw them exit pretty quickly. I read where their fans were happy to go to a playoff game.


Talk about comparisons to UD fans.

This is great, your argument is that somehow I'm a UD fan. Let's keep pointing at each other and scream "NO YOU'RE the UD fan!"

For the record, the Indians are going to suck next year. Probably the year after that.

You're telling me how good this Reds team will be NEXT year, dismissing the horrible play of THIS year, and how happy you are of making the playoff. Yup you got it right there chico. Go Flyers!

[Cheesehead]

I am enjoying this banter w/ DC....and I thought it was just me.

He seems awfully bitter about something.

If you don't agree with him; you are A) a pussy: B) pathetic or both

:sword:

Looking forward to October 23rd and discussions about XU basketball.

[Masterofreality]

I am enjoying this banter w/ DC....and I thought it was just me.

He seems awfully bitter about something.

If you don't agree with him; you are A) a pussy: B) pathetic or both

:sword:

Looking forward to October 23rd and discussions about XU basketball.

Not bitter in my opinion, just factual.

The Reds played against the Philthys like they drank all the champagne in France and had the hangover to prove it. They looked just happy to survive the regular season. For time immemorial they will be known as the second team to be no-hit in a post-season game. Way to compete.

Time will tell whether the Redlegs can sustain success for another year. Which team will it be- the regular season or the pathetic playoffs?

I'm just sayin' don't go overboard in the expectations- but if you want to, be my guest.

[chico]

Again with the wins? You're really going to hang your hat on wins? Since wins is the end all of pitching greatness, let's look at who you'd rather have than Hamels. John Lackey and his 4.40 ERA, maybe Ricky Nolasco and his 4.51 ERA. The there's Kevin Slowey of the Twins who, by the way, did not even start in the postseason. Or Slowey's teammate, Scott Baker who interestingly enough also did not start a game this postseason. Yeah, I'll take the Twins 4th and 5th starters over Cole Hamels. Yeah, wins are the greatest stat ever, because it's in the complete control of the pitcher, right? Any baseball fan worth his salt knows wins is the single worst indicator of performance. And yet you cling to it, despite the fact that most every writer, scout and GM would take the Phillies' top 3 (which, by the way, includes Hamels) over any other staff's top 3.

You want guys to be able to win in Ocober, right? Hamels has proven he does that. The guy raises his game when it's most important, but you cling to that 12-11 record. I wish you were the Phillies' GM so I could get Hamels for a box of baseballs and a Single A prospect. Do you understand the concept of building a team to win in October?

35 years, 15 years. What's the cutoff? I guess since this is your argument we can't go back more than 15. How about 20, when the Reds won the whole thing. Please explain to us the Statute of Limitations on how far back you can claim your team was good. The Reds are good now so I guess your argument as to which team is better recently is also without merit. But we'll use your 15 year time frame because it helps your argument - any other time frame would just be stupid..

And yeah, I would think the Reds would be favorites to win the Central next year. Just like your Indians came from nowhere to very good back in the 90's. Can you not understand the concept of improvement? They are not good enough to challenge the Phils this year but with the kids getting better the hope is they will. But since they lost 3 in a row we should be wearing sackcloth and beat our breasts. Nobody's "happy" they lost 3 in row. We're happy because we finally have a team with a realistic chance of playing in October for the next few years. Sorry you can't make that distinction.

And thanks for pointing out how petty it is to call you a UD fan, then calling me one. Beautiful.

Look, as Sam Wyche once said "You don't live in Cleveland, you live in Cincinnati." We don't have a tortured history and expect the sky to fall because we lost 3 to the Phils. I'm sorry Le Bron broke your heart. I'm sorry John Elway, Earnest Byner, Michael Jordan, Edgar Renteria, Art Modell and Tom Glavine broke your heart.

[DC Muskie]

Look this thread has now lasted longer then the actual playoff run for the reds.

Cole Hamels had 12 wins this season. The Phillies traded for two better pitchers the last season so they could actually make the playoffs.

That's what I know because that's what happened. I don't know how you build a team for October when your best pitcher from two years ago is struggling like he did last year. Last year when he went 10-11. But Chico and Reds fans have it figured out.

And keep mouthing off about the years thing, Chico. My point was proven. You can yammer all you want about cutoffs and this and that or whatever. The Reds had one winning season and one playoff appearance in 15 years. Fantastic.

My original point is not to take this shot for granted. But hope for next year sure feels better then the reality of this year and I can understand that thinking. I don't agree with it, but I understand that's how people who haven't experienced the playoffs would feel. I can't control how you guys feel, but when I read from Reds fans how great it was just to experience a playoff game and how awfully good a guy who needed to win 5 games in the last month just to be over .500, I'm sorry Cheese, it's flat out pathetic.

Great Sam Wyche quote. Luckily no one can hear him now. And the world is a better place for it.

Seriously best of luck Reds. Here was one non Reds fan pulling for you to beat the Phillies in the playoffs and is more pissed off about then you are. You guys definitely deserve another shot next year.

[DC Muskie]

And yet you cling to it, despite the fact that most every writer, scout and GM would take the Phillies' top 3 (which, by the way, includes Hamels) over any other staff's top 3.

Since you know so much about baseball, allow me to introduce to you the following people:

Tim Linecum
Matt Cain
Jonathan Sanchez

It's going to be a great series.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

After some additional thought and time to come to grips with my feelings about the end of the 2010 Reds season, I have come to the following conclusion....

The Philadelphia Phillies, their fans, the pitching staff, and that goofy fu**er of a mascot can eat a BAG OF DICKS!!!!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/108309143_eb9fb9879e.jpg?v=0

Drove by this place in North Myrtle Beach about a month ago. Highly recommend it to the Phillies:

http://www.northmyrtlebeachonline.com/modules/xdirectory/clients/29191/logo.jpg

http://www.dirtydickscrabs.com/ordereze/intro1.htmlhttp://www.dirtydickscrabs.com/ordereze/intro1.html

[Smails]

DC, is it possible for you to have a disagreement with someone without coming off like a complete and utter dick? The world is a better place because Sam Wyche has a throat disease?

Really? Well played.

Once again I would like to extend my sincere thanks to DC and MOR for helping all of us title deprived Reds fans (except those of us who have seen 3 WS championships) for letting us know how to act when a season ends in disapointment. For years I have wondered how to handle that....now I know.

[DC Muskie]

I'm not the one who brought up Sam Wyche and his slam against the city of Cleveland. It seems to be a point of pride by Cincinnati fans. The guy can talk if that makes you feel any better.

I really enjoy how somehow I come across as a dick when I present simple, well thought out facts. Jesus it's not like I say things that are completely out of left field. Cole Hamels was 7-7 in July....WHAT A DICK!

It seem like I'm only allowed to defend my position to a certain point and then concede. I don't care if you don't agree with me Smails, that wasn't the point. I was merely pointing out how weird it was to watch fans of a professional sports team act satisfied after getting worked over.

Cole Hamels is the best number 3 pitcher in the history of baseball. Everyone and their mother would take Halladay and Oswalt over any other pitcher on the planet. What else could the Reds do, next year with more seasoning Jay Bruce will be able to catch a ball, and the guys who were really good defensively during the season will be even better in the playoffs. Sam Wyche was not only a great coach, but he had great slams. Cleveland fans are morons, Skyline chili, Montgomery Ribs, LaRossa's pizza, Greaters are all awesome. I love seeing fireworks in September rather than the 4th of July.

There I just conceded.

[XU 87]

I don't care if you don't agree with me Smails, that wasn't the point. I was merely pointing out how weird it was to watch fans of a professional sports team act satisfied after getting worked over.




No one was "satisfied" with the playoffs. However, most fans were satisifed with the overall season. I'm not sure why you won't understand the difference between the two.

It seems that you want us to say, "The playoffs ruined the entire season. And as a result of the playoffs, I think we're going to suck next year." We don't feel that way. The fact that we don't have this shitty attitude seems to perplex you.

[DC Muskie]

No one was "satisfied" with the playoffs. However, most fans were satisifed with the overall season. I'm not sure why you won't comprehend the difference between the two.

It seems that you want us to say, "The playoffs ruined the entire season. And as a result of the playoffs, I think we're going to suck next year." We don't feel that way. The fact that we don't have this shitty attitude seems to perplex you.

No actually what is perplexing is I haven't read one statement from Reds fans disappointed in this missed opportunity. I get long winded posts about whether or not I would want to have John Lackey on my post season roster. I've read where people have been happy at the game, but disappointed in the outcome. I've read where people were glad to at least see history when getting no hits off a guy.

Anybody here thinks this was a missed opportunity from the Reds? Or all you all used to the idea that next year will be better?

Like I have said about a billion times, people who are satisfied with a season overall, especially after how poorly they played in the postseason are not used to being in the playoffs...Big red Machine experience withholding.

Are you going to look back years from now and say, 2010 was a good season. Expect when the postseason started.

That's weird. Sorry. I don't treat my sports teams like they are CYO leagues. I'm not a Yankees fan where going to the playoffs is a regular thing.

[chico]

Hamels was never the Phillies' ace - did someone say that somewhere? They had Cliff Lee last year and traded for Oswalt because they needed 3 starters in the postseason. Last I checked Hamels is one of those 3. Trading for Oswalt is not a knock on Hamels, it's a knock on the rest of the starting rotation.

I will never understand your infatuation with wins. It's a team stat, so why apply it to individual pitchers as a gauge of how good someone is? Your continued insistence on using it is baffling.

I don't think anyone has taken it for granted. It's exactly the opposite - we've been so pleasantly surprised that we weren't that upset over the Phillies loss. So what should we be - grateful that we had the chance and optimistic that we actually have a future, or torn up that we lost? My head's spinning.

Look at the NL Central next year. The Cardinals are on the downside but could still eek one out, but without Jocketty the Genius will be hard pressed to win another division. plus they have the weakest middle infield in the league. The other teams have pieces but don't have the total package of talent the Reds have.

Not to nitpick (well, I guess I am) but the Reds won 96 games in 1999 and were over .500 in 2000. But I prefer to look at what's in store for us at the present and future than look back wistfully at the last 15 years of near misses. I mean, what team was used in "Major League," anyway?

Lastly (really - I've said my peace), I agree that the NLCS will be a great series. The Giants are the one team that can match up with the Phillies rotation. They actually have a deeper rotation with Bumgarner as well who they should use because he's a lefty.

[GoMuskies]

I haven't read one statement from Reds fans disappointed in this missed opportunity.

Do you have me on ignore?

[XU 87]

No actually what is perplexing is I haven't read one statement from Reds fans disappointed in this missed opportunity.

Are you going to look back years from now and say, 2010 was a good season. Expect when the postseason started.



Please read my posts after game 2 where I said I thought the 5th, 6th and 7th innings were possibly the biggest meltdown in the history of post season baseball. Was that "disappointed" enough for you?

As for your second paragraph, you've explained it all. You want really do want us to say, "The entire season was ruined as a result of the playoffs." We don't feel that way. Apparently that's how you would have felt. Oh well.

[chico]

No actually what is perplexing is I haven't read one statement from Reds fans disappointed in this missed opportunity.

Really? What does "not happy with things" connote?

Now I'm done (I feel like Brady Quinn)..

[DC Muskie]

Chico-

How much did you follow the NL east this year? Now I don't claim to be an expert on the NL Central, but I do know a little something about the teams we play out here on a continual basis.

Do you think the Phillies went from seven down to seven up in first place because Cole Hamels was losing games in August? I mean I realize the entire Phillie team was losing, and it really didn't matter who was pitching I guess...wait...nope I can't understand that thinking.

The games in July and August where he got no decisions, it was because the team's bullpens sucked.

In 2008 Cole Hamels was the ace of the Phillies. You even pointed how awesome he was in the postseason. In 2009 he didn;t fare that well. Despite his team winning, he was 6-5 and that awesome era was worse than Joe Blanton. But they were up, so trading for Lee was to push them over the edge and ready for the playoffs.

In 2010 he had the same problems, only this time the team was not in first. So trading for Oswalt was in fact a reflection on Hamels. It's not like OsWalt was slated to the third spot. That would have been a reflection on the staff.

[DC Muskie]

Oh well.

Oh well is right. I wish I was a Reds fan. Positive until the end.

[DC Muskie]

Really? What does "not happy with things" connote?

Now I'm done (I feel like Brady Quinn)..

I have no idea Brady, what the hell does it mean? That you would have wanted to face John Lackey?

I have to say it's hilarious that I'm getting more slams about Cleveland than the Reds play. I think that says it all.

Wear shades brothers! Future is bright!

[DC Muskie]

Do you have me on ignore?

I think some our Reds fans would be better served if they put me on ignore. Since I'm a dick and all.