Kentucky's Coach Cal

[MADXSTER]

Poll question....

[STL_XUfan]

Yes.......but so has every coach in the history of basketball. There is no way to be 100% compliant with how complex the NCAA rules manual is. Hell, you could go to 4 compliance officers with the same question and end up with 4 different responses on whether or not an activity is within the rules.

[gladdenguy]

I don't care who you are.....if you get 3 of the top 8 in the country and you easily have the top recruiting class for 3 years in a row AND you have gotten caught cheating at your last 2 jobs...YES, he is cheating (only a matter of time).

[D-West & PO-Z]

How can the answer be anything other than yes? Unless it is just referring to at UK. Even then I still think it is a yes.

Edit: I guess thats why it says Kentuck's Coach Cal. Sorry.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Yes.......but so has every coach in the history of basketball. There is no way to be 100% compliant with how complex the NCAA rules manual is. Hell, you could go to 4 compliance officers with the same question and end up with 4 different responses on whether or not an activity is within the rules.

Some more than others, some with more serious violations than others.

Everyone in the US I'm sure has broken the law at some point, whether it be something small like speeding, or something major like theft.

I would argue with two Final 4s vacated at two different schools, Coach Cal is the theft, not the speeder.

[smileyy]

Without a doubt, he should have known what was happening with Derrick Rose, if he didn't participate in it himself.

[xu_fan]

As a head basketball coach you have to take responsibility for anything that goes wrong in your program, BUT can someone please explain to me how it is Cal's fault that Derrick Rose cheated on a SAT test in high school... ESPN had an article about NCAA rules infractions before the article made perfect sense. If I can find it I will post it.

Sometimes we have to remember that head coaches are just people too and it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to watch what all their recruits are doing all the time. IMPOSSIBLE.... I'm not saying Coach Cal has done everything right but I also don't think he's a complete cheat like many of you think. None of the stuff against Memphis or UMass were blantant things like paying someone a bunch of money to come to school there. I don't know it just seems so impossible to control everything....

[sirthought]

Every school, even Xavier, bends the recruiting rules and scholastic rules to suit their needs. Cal probably does it more severely than others.

[MADXSTER]

Every school, even Xavier, bends the recruiting rules and scholastic rules to suit their needs. Cal probably does it more severely than others.

"Probably".....ya think? Ha

[MuskieCinci]

I think a better question would be, "Would you want Calipari as the head coach at Xavier?" This would assume things like Chris Mack was not the head coach and he didn't leave UK in any more trouble than he left UMASS or Memphis. I think that would be a good debate because while a lot of people like to bitch and moan about him cheating, he also gets really good players and goes to Final Fours.

[Titanxman04]

I think a better question would be, "Would you want Calipari as the head coach at Xavier?" This would assume things like Chris Mack was not the head coach and he didn't leave UK in any more trouble than he left UMASS or Memphis. I think that would be a good debate because while a lot of people like to bitch and moan about him cheating, he also gets really good players and goes to Final Fours.

Check the banners on that one. Neither school went to the Final Four. Both were stripped. So no, Calipari makes you think you went to the Final Four. You can even buy t-shirts with your school's logo that says you went to the Final Four. But the months following such a celebration and exuberance of "making" a Final Four will then be followed by months of speculation, inquiry, and eventually an NCAA smackdown of penalties that include taking down that brand new banner that up until late, you were celebrating.

So no, Calipari is an illusionist. He's a fraud. He sells you on something but then bolts town when all hell comes down from the authorities... In otherwords, he's the Monorail Salesman from The Simpsons.

http://hdtd.typepad.com/hdtd/images/2008/05/19/springfield_monorail.jpg

[MuskieCinci]

Check the banners on that one. Neither school went to the Final Four. Both were stripped. So no, Calipari makes you think you went to the Final Four. You can even buy t-shirts with your school's logo that says you went to the Final Four. But the months following such a celebration and exuberance of "making" a Final Four will then be followed by months of speculation, inquiry, and eventually an NCAA smackdown of penalties that include taking down that brand new banner that up until late, you were celebrating.

So no, Calipari is an illusionist. He's a fraud. He sells you on something but then bolts town when all hell comes down from the authorities... In otherwords, he's the Monorail Salesman from The Simpsons.

http://hdtd.typepad.com/hdtd/images/2008/05/19/springfield_monorail.jpg

I just think that is a silly argument. Does taking away the banners really take away the experience that you had as a fan? If I live and die with every win, I go to all the home games and a couple away and tournament games, and I watch my team get to the Final Four, does the NCAA taking away the banner really offset everything else?

[waggy]

I just think that is a silly argument. Does taking away the banners really take away the experience that you had as a fan? If I live and die with every win, I go to all the home games and a couple away and tournament games, and I watch my team get to the Final Four, does the NCAA taking away the banner really offset everything else?

If you're only into the experience then why not cheat? Or why not be a fan of another program? IMO, cheating to obtain a goal is Far worse than not achieving the goal.

[JimCoker]

I just think that is a silly argument. Does taking away the banners really take away the experience that you had as a fan? If I live and die with every win, I go to all the home games and a couple away and tournament games, and I watch my team get to the Final Four, does the NCAA taking away the banner really offset everything else?

Yes.

[Titanxman04]

If you're only into the experience then why not cheat? Or why not be a fan of another program? IMO, cheating to obtain a goal is Far worse than not achieving the goal.

Thats a very Kantian approach. It's not the outcome of your actions that define the morality of it, however, it's the will behind your actions. Whether the outcome is good or bad, it's your WILL that determines whether or not you're a just person.

I think Calipari thinks he's doing a service to these schools, and certainly, there's an argument to be made that he is. He's bringing in headlines, ad and television revenue, and when your team is successful, there's a clear connection to an increase in applications for prospective students (known as the Flutie Effect).

However, I think the negative connotations that the school and the program goes through after dealing with Calipari isn't worth it. I personally, don't want to make it to a Final Four and then have it stripped afterwards. Think of the arguments between Dayton or Butler fans when we claim we've made it to the FF... "Yeah...but you cheated." I don't want to hear that.

Xavier does things the right ways now, and I'd be sorry to hear if the overwhelming majority, or even a small portion of this fanbase, are willing to forgo what makes us great in the first place, sell their souls to Calipari, and decides to cheat to win. I don't care what the "Winning Culture" is like, nor do I care what those say about the positive benefits from doing it "Cal's Way". Fact is, there is a right and a wrong way of doing it. Schools have done it the right way (as far as we know) and are continuing to do it that way. Duke, as much as many of you dislike and cannot stand them, have done it in a similar style to ours. Lets face it, they graduate their players, they have a high concern for academics, and they win at basketball. Our end goal of a program is to be on the level that Duke is doing things, and then some... at least I hope so.

It would be a blast and a hell of a ride if we made it to the Final Four. But it's like banging a broad after meeting her in the bar. Sure, that experience could be freaking awesome and it could be one hell of a night. But when you've got herpes for the rest of your life, is it worth it (sorry to bring up a sore subject for some of you)? :D

[JimCoker]

Titanman, well said. You are a pretty smart guy.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I think a better question would be, "Would you want Calipari as the head coach at Xavier?" This would assume things like Chris Mack was not the head coach and he didn't leave UK in any more trouble than he left UMASS or Memphis. I think that would be a good debate because while a lot of people like to bitch and moan about him cheating, he also gets really good players and goes to Final Fours.

Two times. He has had some incredibly talented teams that he hasnt delievered with. I know its hard to get there even once but in my opinion Cal is not a great coach. Great recruiter yes, for some reason kids want to play for him (wonder what it might be:p) but he gets the best in the country. But man, to have 5, thats 5!, guys drafted in the first round last year and his team didnt get to the Final 4?

Plus I agree with everything Titan and others above said. I wouldnt want Cal for a second.

[Titanxman04]

Two times. He has had some incredibly talented teams that he hasnt delievered with. I know its hard to get there even once but in my opinion Cal is not a great coach. Great recruiter yes, for some reason kids want to play for him (wonder what it might be:p) but he gets the best in the country. But man, to have 5, thats 5!, guys drafted in the first round last year and his team didnt get to the Final 4?

Plus I agree with everything Titan and others above said. I wouldnt want Cal for a second.

Personally, I have to agree with you on this. Watching him Memphis team, they were not great shooters at all. They excelled in the fast break, and their athleticism and talent allowed them to push the ball and play how they wanted to.

However, they consistently would force the three ball and shoot terribly from it, and not too mention, we all know how much they sucked at free throws. However, Cal couldn't change that. He had about as much of an effect in game as does Brian Gregory. Pass on Cal. Even if he didn't cheat, I want a talented COACH. Not just a recruiter.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Personally, I have to agree with you on this. Watching him Memphis team, they were not great shooters at all. They excelled in the fast break, and their athleticism and talent allowed them to push the ball and play how they wanted to.

However, they consistently would force the three ball and shoot terribly from it, and not too mention, we all know how much they sucked at free throws. However, Cal couldn't change that. He had about as much of an effect in game as does Brian Gregory. Pass on Cal. Even if he didn't cheat, I want a talented COACH. Not just a recruiter.

I believe that year where Memphis lost to KU in the finals Cal was quoted as saying something to the effect that he wasnt going to spend anymore time on free throws than he already was and that they would make them when they counted.

[Titanxman04]

I believe that year where Memphis lost to KU in the finals Cal was quoted as saying something to the effect that he wasnt going to spend anymore time on free throws than he already was and that they would make them when they counted.

I'll take "Words I'll Regret Later" for $200..

[waggy]

Thats a very Kantian approach. It's not the outcome of your actions that define the morality of it, however, it's the will behind your actions. Whether the outcome is good or bad, it's your WILL that determines whether or not you're a just person.

I think Calipari thinks he's doing a service to these schools, and certainly, there's an argument to be made that he is. He's bringing in headlines, ad and television revenue, and when your team is successful, there's a clear connection to an increase in applications for prospective students (known as the Flutie Effect).

But you voted that Calipari is cheating. ;)

[Titanxman04]

But you voted that Calipari is cheating. ;)

I believe he's knowingly cheating. One way or another, he knows he's doing something wrong and something shady is going down. Thus, his WILL is corrupt. Even if he wins a national championship, it should be taken as less value by these Kantian standards.

[waggy]

And therefore Karma caused both Final Fours to be vacated, eventhough it could be argued that the players were actually at fault in each instance.

[GoMuskies]

"Would you want Calipari as the head coach at Xavier?"


Are you fugging kidding?!?

[MuskieCinci]

Memphis' records prior to Calipari were 13-15 in 1998-99 and 15-16 in 1999-00. UMASS didn't have a winning record in the decade prior to Calipari becoming their coach. Kentucky missed the NCAA Tournament for the first time in 18 years where the expectations are to recruit the best in the country and make the Final Four every year. Memphis and Kentucky aren't programs that are exactly known for doing things the right way but these programs were clearly in different positions than Xavier would be when picking a coach. I would not expect Xavier fans to want Calipari with the way things are going for our program, however a program that isn't doing so well with deep pockets would strongly consider it.

I still fail to understand though how vacating wins takes away the experience that the players and fans had. The NCAA is pretty much just saying, "You have to act like that didn't happen." Well I certainly remember Memphis that season and Derrick Rose, I'm not just going to act like it never happened. If one of you big time boosters organized it so Terrell got the ACT score he needed I wouldn't forget about the season we had and the Sweet Sixteen runs we've had behind the play of Tutu's big balls. You can take them out of the record books but it won't change the REAL history of what actually happened.

[xu_fan]

I still feel like no one has explained how Derrick Rose cheating on a SAT test makes Calapari such a cheater.. There are so many sleeze ball accusations that people are making but it doesn't make much sense.. Yes he's been to the final four twice and yes both times they got vacated.. I understand that and think it should raise some eyebrows but both times seem to be things that were out of his control.. If someone can explain how Cal knew that Derrick Rose cheated then maybe I would have a different view but common sense tells me sometimes you have to just trust the record books.. There was never any proof that Cal knew about Derrick Rose cheating so how can we just call him guilty..

I don't think the man is a saint by any stretch of the imagination but calling him a fraud seems over the top for what actually happened..

[smileyy]

There was never any proof that Cal knew about Derrick Rose cheating so how can we just call him guilty.

My point is that either he did know, or he should know. Knowing the eligibility of his recruits, especally a high-profile recruit like Derrick Rose, is his among his duties as a head coach.

It's like saying it's ok if someone drowns in the ocean, because the lifeguard was asleep. It wasn't the lifeguard's fault! He was asleep!

[D-West & PO-Z]

My point is that either he did know, or he should know. Knowing the eligibility of his recruits, especally a high-profile recruit like Derrick Rose, is his among his duties as a head coach.

It's like saying it's ok if someone drowns in the ocean, because the lifeguard was asleep. It wasn't the lifeguard's fault! He was asleep!

Ha, I like the analogy.

Here is a good article from last year about Cal and both situations.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/luke_winn/08/20/memphis/index.html

Some extracts from it:

"If the Wildcats do return to glory under Calipari, though, no one will consider it a virtuous achievement. Not after Thursday's report that Memphis, Calipari's old school, will be forced to vacate its NCAA-record 38 wins and national title game appearance from '07-08 due to the fact that star point guard Derrick Rose became eligible only after a former high school teammate fraudulently took Rose's SAT. While the ruling doesn't directly implicate Calipari, it's an indictment against the way he runs programs: He's now the only coach in history to have Final Fours vacated at two different schools. (UMass, where Marcus Camby was deemed ineligible for taking $28,000 as well as jewelry and prostitutes from agents in '96, was the first.)"

"Calipari didn't arrange Rose's SAT scam, in the same way he didn't arrange agent payments to Camby, but in both cases it's hard to fathom that Calipari was 100 percent ignorant of what was going down. He had far too much at stake in Rose and Camby to not be intimately aware of what was going on in their lives. Even if you're convinced that Cal is a victim -- that it was only a coincidence that two major scandals happened on his watch -- you can't deny that he profited immensely from his illicit use of those two stars."