Big East or A10?

[_LH]

There are a lot of possible scenarios that may or may not happen with the conferences adding teams. What if the Big 10 ends up just adding Notre Dame, leaving one basketball only spot open in the current Big East, if offered, should XU take it or stay in the A10?

[ud2009]

The Big East will not invite any schools unless they play football.

It is better to stay in the A-10 as well. It is better to be the top dog than an average but good team in a bigger conference.

[GoMuskies]

It is better to be the top dog than an average but good team in a bigger conference.

That kind of thinking in 1994 would have led Xavier to recommit to the MCC rather than join the A-10.

[_LH]

The Big East will not invite any schools unless they play football.

It is better to stay in the A-10 as well. It is better to be the top dog than an average but good team in a bigger conference.

With just one opening for bball only, you don't think they BE will look to fill it?

Personally, I would rather XU stay in the A10 as it stands now than to move to the Big East as it stands now. Having said that, eventually, I would like XU to be in a conference with Georgetown and Villanova but not one with WVU and South Florida.

[waggy]

The Crosstown Shootout could be a showcase for the conference...

[SixFig]

Well it looks like the Big 10 is adding Nebraska for sure.

As for Xavier, it is a tough call...but we can't back down from a challenge.

[muskiefan82]

The Big East will not invite any schools unless they play football.

It is better to stay in the A-10 as well. It is better to be the top dog than an average but good team in a bigger conference.

I fail to understand why Xavier can't be top dog in the Big East. Xavier would be more than an average team in a bigger conference. We are Xavier, after all - not Dayton.

[wkrq59]

Xavier will never, never, never ever be a member of a conference, any conference which has UC as one of its members. Won't happen. Speculative talk is just plain silly, because UC will never permit it as witness the Great Midwest.:logo::D

[SixFig]

Xavier will never, never, never ever be a member of a conference, any conference which has UC as one of its members. Won't happen. Speculative talk is just plain silly, because UC will never permit it as witness the Great Midwest.:logo::D

I would never question the wisdom of Q, but does the Great Midwest Conference formation wayyy back in 1990 have any bearing on today???

Times and circumstances change.

[Mark 3 Pointer]

Xavier will never, never, never ever be a member of a conference, any conference which has UC as one of its members. Won't happen. Speculative talk is just plain silly, because UC will never permit it as witness the Great Midwest.:logo::D

Agree with this 100%... not to mention that the BE would not add an additonal TV market by adding Xavier. I would think a school like Butler or even Dayton would have a better shot at joining a BE that has UC in it.

X needs the BE to implode so the 8 non-football playing schools form an East Coast Catholic League. If that happens UC is out of the picture and Cincinnati will need to be added as a TV market (Thus X gets the invite). In this scenario I see X as the first invite to join the non-football schools.

[bourbonman]

Xavier will never, never, never ever be a member of a conference, any conference which has UC as one of its members. Won't happen. Speculative talk is just plain silly, because UC will never permit it as witness the Great Midwest.:logo::D

I agree with this as well. Now if UC and UofL head out of the BE with the departure of ND, Syracuse and Rutgers and the ACC filling a void of its loss of Maryland to the Big10 as well, I could see a scenario that the BE would look to stay in Cincy with XU. BUT that is only if UC has fled the BE (which could be picked apart footbal wise) and moves to the ACC, the B12 leftovers, etc. Under this scenario I would vote to head to the basketball focused BE with G-town, St Johns, Villanova, etc.

[sash19]

I agree with this as well. Now if UC and UofL head out of the BE with the departure of ND, Syracuse and Rutgers and the ACC filling a void of its loss of Maryland to the Big10 as well, I could see a scenario that the BE would look to stay in Cincy with XU. BUT that is only if UC has fled the BE (which could be picked apart footbal wise) and moves to the ACC, the B12 leftovers, etc. Under this scenario I would vote to head to the basketball focused BE with G-town, St Johns, Villanova, etc.

Kansas may be without a conference. Let's drop St. Louis and add Kansas!!!

[Snipe]

Is it time to bring back football?

[drudy23]

if offered, should XU take it or stay in the A10?

???????????

Is this a real question? Anyone is their right mind who picks the A-10 over the Big East should be committed.

Should they take it? Should they take it? Really?

[_LH]

???????????

Is this a real question? Anyone is their right mind who picks the A-10 over the Big East should be committed.

Should they take it? Should they take it? Really?

Not the Big East as it stands today. I think an A10 that XU dominates is better for them than a 16 team BE conference with the likes of WVU and S. Florida.

[XU 87]

Xavier will never, never, never ever be a member of a conference, any conference which has UC as one of its members. Won't happen. Speculative talk is just plain silly, because UC will never permit it as witness the Great Midwest.:logo::D

Yep.

[drudy23]

Not the Big East as it stands today. I think an A10 that XU dominates is better for them than a 16 team BE conference with the likes of WVU and S. Florida.

Think of what the Big East could do for a program like Xavier. With the emphasis strictly on hoops at XU, the increased revenue and recognition could catapult this program similar to what happened at Duke.

Might it take 5-10 years...perhaps...but the sky would be the limit with the administration's focus on basketball, an AD that is top notch, and coaching staff that is hungry and already gets ACC, Big Ten, SEC caliber recruits.

We'd be watching a perennial Top 10 team in the Cintas eventually.

[Muskie]

Think of what the Big East could do for a program like Xavier. With the emphasis strictly on hoops at XU, the increased revenue and recognition could catapult this program similar to what happened at Duke.

Might it take 5-10 years...perhaps...but the sky would be the limit with the administration's focus on basketball, an AD that is top notch, and coaching staff that is hungry and already gets ACC, Big Ten, SEC caliber recruits.

We'd be watching a perennial Top 10 team in the Cintas eventually.

Assuming of course that the Big East still has the same stature after realignment.

[_LH]

Think of what the Big East could do for a program like Xavier. With the emphasis strictly on hoops at XU, the increased revenue and recognition could catapult this program similar to what happened at Duke.

Might it take 5-10 years...perhaps...but the sky would be the limit with the administration's focus on basketball, an AD that is top notch, and coaching staff that is hungry and already gets ACC, Big Ten, SEC caliber recruits.

We'd be watching a perennial Top 10 team in the Cintas eventually.

I'm sure Seton Hall thinks that too.

[stophorseabuse]

I'm sure Seton Hall thinks that too.

Seton Hall does not have the same level of commitment as Xavier. Neither does USF, Cincinnati, Depaul, Rutgers, etc etc etc.

[_LH]

Seton Hall does not have the same level of commitment as Xavier. Neither does USF, Cincinnati, Depaul, Rutgers, etc etc etc.

How do you know? You don't think Seton Hall, DePaul, Providence, etc don't want to be in the top half of the current BE each year?

[xsteve1]

Big East for sure. More exposure plus we'd land some 5 star talent. Sampson would already be a Muskie if we were in the BE.

[drudy23]

I'm sure Seton Hall thinks that too.

Seton Hall?

Good comparison :confused::confused::confused:

[GoMuskies]

LH, you're ignoring the lessons of our move to the A-10. There was plenty of concern at the time that Xavier would never be able to compete in a league the stature of the A-10. How has that turned out?

LaSalle, Fordham and Dayton came with us and have had only a fraction of the success we have. Conference affiliation doesn't affect all schools the same way. So the failures of Seton Hall, Provi, St. John's, DePaul, etc. are essentially irrelevant.

[X-band '01]

LH, you're ignoring the lessons of our move to the A-10. There was plenty of concern at the time that Xavier would never be able to compete in a league the stature of the A-10. How has that turned out?

LaSalle and Fordham came with us and haven't done jack shit. Dayton came with us and has had only a fraction of the success we have. Conference affiliation doesn't affect all schools the same way. So the failures of Seton Hall, Provi, St. John's, DePaul, etc. are essentially irrelevant.

Fixed your post.

[_LH]

LH, you're ignoring the lessons of our move to the A-10. There was plenty of concern at the time that Xavier would never be able to compete in a league the stature of the A-10. How has that turned out?

LaSalle, Fordham and Dayton came with us and have had only a fraction of the success we have. Conference affiliation doesn't affect all schools the same way. So the failures of Seton Hall, Provi, St. John's, DePaul, etc. are essentially irrelevant.

I'm not ignoring it at all and comparing the A10 in 1995 to what the Big East is today is laughable. The BE is 16 teams big and if you are not in the top 8 it is very hard to get there. Look how ND has struggled to be a top 8 BE team, let alone, Providence, Seton Hall, DePaul, etc.

XU has taken huge steps since joining the A10 but they also were able to move up the rankings as UMASS went down after Cal left and Temple declined as Chaney went insane. Other top A10 teams in 95 had coaching changes allowing XU to make their climb.

[_LH]

Seton Hall?

Good comparison :confused::confused::confused:

You don't think Seton Hall wants to be a top 8 basketball team in the BE?

[D-West & PO-Z]

You don't think Seton Hall wants to be a top 8 basketball team in the BE?

Wanting to be something and having the commitment to become it are two completely different things.

[_LH]

Wanting to be something and having the commitment to become it are two completely different things.

How do you know they are NOT committed to it? You have no idea.

[GoMuskies]

I'm not ignoring it at all and comparing the A10 in 1995 to what the Big East is today is laughable.

Not at all laughable. It's the exact same thing. The leap Xavier's program had to take to be successful in the A-10 back then was probably greater than the leap it would take now to be successful in the Big East.

[D-West & PO-Z]

How do you know they are NOT committed to it? You have no idea.

I dont. I dont know that much about Seton Hall. I never said they werent committed to it. I dont know how much they spend on basketball. I am just saying that there is a difference. Lots of people want to be rich or be a lawyer or doctor or whatever but not everyone has the committment to become one. I dont know about Seton Hall but I am confident that if Xavier joined the Big East, or some spinoff of the Big East they would be successful. The committment to basketball is enourmous.

[_LH]

Not at all laughable. It's the exact same thing. The leap Xavier's program had to take to be successful in the A-10 back then was probably greater than the leap it would take now to be successful in the Big East.

It is not even close to the same thing.

It was very hard to get at large bids out of the MCC and forget about at large bids as a 3 seed.

The top 5-8 BE teams are a lot stronger than any other team besides what UMASS and Temple were in 1995 and only UMASS went to a Final 4.

[_LH]

I dont. I dont know that much about Seton Hall. I never said they werent committed to it. I dont know how much they spend on basketball. I am just saying that there is a difference. Lots of people want to be rich or be a lawyer or doctor or whatever but not everyone has the committment to become one. I dont know about Seton Hall but I am confident that if Xavier joined the Big East, or some spinoff of the Big East they would be successful. The committment to basketball is enourmous.

First, I never said XU wouldn't or couldn't do well in the BE as it stands today minus ND but it is a lot easier to dance every year for XU in the A10 than it would be in the BE. It would be a lot harder to be a top 8 BE team each year than a top 3 A10 team every year.

Also, as Butler showed this year, XU can go as far as they want out of the A10. A10 teams have gotten 1 and 2 seeds before and XU has twice gotten 3 seeds. XU is doing quite fine in the current A10 and I would see little to no benefit to joining a 16 team BE with the likes of WVU and S. Fla. Joining a revised BE would be a different story.

[GoMuskies]

It is not even close to the same thing.

It was very hard to get at large bids out of the MCC and forget about at large bids as a 3 seed.

The top 5-8 BE teams are a lot stronger than any other team besides what UMASS and Temple were in 1995 and only UMASS went to a Final 4.

It's the exact same thing. Of course the Big East now is a lot better than the A-10 was in '95. But Xavier is also a helluva lot better now than we were in 1995. We have much less road to travel in 2010 to catch UConn, Pitt, Louisville, etc. than we did in '95 to catch Temple and UMass.

[_LH]

It is not even close to the same thing.

UMASS and Temple started to decline within a few years of XU's addition and when I say decline I mean fall of the face of the earth. The top 5 BE schools are not going to decline like that.

[smileyy]

It was very hard to get at large bids out of the MCC and forget about at large bids as a 3 seed.


The college basketball landscape has changed dramatically with respect to evaluating team strength since the MCC existed.

[GoMuskies]

Not surprised that you completely miss the point. Agree to disagree (and each think they other is way, way off base).

[_LH]

The college basketball landscape has changed dramatically with respect to evaluating team strength since the MCC existed.

How many at large bids has the MCC/Horizon gotten since XU left?

[_LH]

Not surprised that you completely miss the point. Agree to disagree (and each think they other is way, way off base).

I get the point completely but you are not grasping the importance of UMASS and Temple's decline and also seem to forget how bad the league was overall when XU took the only bid one year and GW did the next but I will agree to disagree with you. :)

[xu95]

There are a lot of possible scenarios that may or may not happen with the conferences adding teams. What if the Big 10 ends up just adding Notre Dame, leaving one basketball only spot open in the current Big East, if offered, should XU take it or stay in the A10?

First of all you are a retard. Second of all, the 8th best team in the Big East gets in the Dance while the A-10 is usually trying to scrape up three. It is a no brainer that Xavier would leave for the Big East.

In fact, Father Graham would accept while on the phone. In fact, if Father Graham's call waiting said "Big East Offices", he would answer with a "yes, Xavier would love to". Let's just hope the question isn't "Would you like to play St. Johns every year in an OOC game".

third of all, did I mention you are a retard?

xu95

[GuyFawkes38]

I'm too lazy to closely read the LH vs XU95 argument.

But I do think it's wrong that most people think that moving into a better conference would automatically give X a boost. It didn't exactly work out that way for Marquette, Louisville, DePaul, and UC.

I think most college basketball fans overestimate the importance of conference affiliation. It's the classic "cause vs prediction" error. Yes, it's true that most good college basketball schools are in BCS conferences. But did the BCS conferences actually cause or assist the schools to be good. Perhaps a little, but not much.

The much better explanation is that the BCS conferences have good basketball schools because they invite good basketball schools to be in their conferences.

Just another example, Harvard alums are really, really rich. Do they learn how to be really rich at Harvard. Again, maybe a little. But the much better explanation is that Harvard admits really brilliant and driven students who would do well after attending any school.

[muskienick]

I'm too lazy to closely read the LH vs XU95 argument.

But I do think it's wrong that most people think that moving into a better conference would automatically give X a boost. It didn't exactly work out that way for Marquette, Louisville, DePaul, and UC.

I think most college basketball fans overestimate the importance of conference affiliation. It's the classic "cause vs prediction" error. Yes, it's true that most good college basketball schools are in BCS conferences. But did the BCS conferences actually cause or assist the schools to be good. Perhaps a little, but not much.

The much better explanation is that the BCS conferences have good basketball schools because they invite good basketball schools to be in their conferences.

Just another example, Harvard alums are really, really rich. Do they learn how to be really rich at Harvard. Again, maybe a little. But the much better explanation is that Harvard admits really brilliant and driven students who would do well after attending any school.

Guy,

Have you been paying attention to UC football over the past few years. Would the Bearcats have played in a BCS Bowl had they remained in CUSA? (That is, of course, a rhetorical question.)

Haven't Xavier's fortunes improved dramatically by moving from the MCC to the A-10?

If we were in a top all-basketball conference such as those being speculated on forums like this, do you honestly believe the Muskies would have to scrape and fight every week for votes in the polls and then, with a single tough road loss, quickly fall from the Top 25. Historically, that seems to be the case more often than not with our membership in the A-10.

Like the Colorados and Nebraskas of the world, Xavier would be stone stupid to turn down an invitation to become a member of significantly better Conference. Heck, it could still be the A-10 with the right subtractions and additions. Or it might be as a member of a basketball driven Big East. Or it might be a brand new Conference consisting of predominantly eastern and midwestern basketball giants without aspirations for FBS or BCS football.

[GuyFawkes38]

Guy,

Have you been paying attention to UC football over the past few years. Would the Bearcats have played in a BCS Bowl had they remained in CUSA? (That is, of course, a rhetorical question.)

Haven't Xavier's fortunes improved dramatically by moving from the MCC to the A-10?

If we were in a top all-basketball conference such as those being speculated on forums like this, do you honestly believe the Muskies would have to scrape and fight every week for votes in the polls and then, with a single tough road loss, quickly fall from the Top 25. Historically, that seems to be the case more often than not with our membership in the A-10.

Like the Colorados and Nebraskas of the world, Xavier would be stone stupid to turn down an invitation to become a member of significantly better Conference. Heck, it could still be the A-10 with the right subtractions and additions. Or it might be as a member of a basketball driven Big East. Or it might be a brand new Conference consisting of predominantly eastern and midwestern basketball giants without aspirations for FBS or BCS football.

I said conference affiliation is overrated for basketball. Football is a completely different matter because post season play is directly tied to conferences.

UC's move to the Big East immediately helped their football team. They used to lose recruits to MAC schools. Those days were over when UC offered them the chance to play in much better bowls.

Basketball, though, is a completely different matter.

[muskienick]

I said conference affiliation is overrated for basketball. Football is a completely different matter because post season play is directly tied to conferences.

UC's move to the Big East immediately helped their football team. They used to lose recruits to MAC schools. Those days were over when UC offered them the chance to play in much better bowls.

Basketball, though, is a completely different matter.

Just being a member of the Big East immediately gives each one of its basketball programs more relevance and respect. Heck, even the coaches of the Big East are brainwashed in thinking that the teams in their league from top to bottom would toy with ther likes of the better A-10 programs. Mick Cronin claims we wouldn't do squat in the BE. Jim Boeheim believes the Orange should get an annual invite to Final Four despite their regular season results. Jim Calhoun is....well, Jim Calhoun!

The national media, lead by the talking heads at ESPN, have canonized the basketball versions of the Big East, SEC, ACC, Big 10, Big 12, and PAC 10. Every year there is a great disparity in the number of teams from those 6 Conference who receive invites to the NCAA Tourney as compared to teams from the other D-1 Conferences. Certainly, some of that is quality. But much of it comes from perception and reception (of their games constantly being shown on national TV). Mobody really knows just how good basketball is in the A-10, CAA, etc...

[DoubleD86]

I am going to keep my post short, but without a doubt it would be easier to recruit from the Big East than it is in the A-10. You can argue how much the Big East would help in general, but without a doubt it opens doors in the recruiting world that XU has to beat on to get in now.

[GuyFawkes38]

I don't quite see the big boost in talent or overall relevance that the Big East supposedly gave Marquette, UC, Depaul, and Louisville.

I think X fans are kidding themselves when they think that Big East affiliation would bring X to the next level.

Edit: also another example is Va tech. Within a 15 year span they dramatically increased the prestige of their conference affiliation by moving from the A10 to the Big East and subsequently to the ACC. But they did it through their excellent football team. Their basketball team tagged along for the ride.

But did their basketball team receive a lot of benefits from moving to the most prestigious basketball conference in college basketball? Not really. Their talent level has increased, but not in a dramatic way. They haven't done a lot of damage in the NCAA tourney. And they are having trouble keeping their coach even though he has had only modest accomplishments.

Did Boston College's basketball program benefit from their affiliation with the ACC?

There have been a lot of conference changes in the past 15 years. Please, someone give me an example of how a conference change boosted a schools basketball program.

[SixFig]

I think X fans are kidding themselves when they think that Big East affiliation would bring X to the next level.

I'm guessing there is more truth to this statement than I originally thought. The "Blown Up Big East" would still be a second class citizen to the football conferences I am sorry to say. Perception is reality, and these new superconferences would swallow the attention even during basketball season. The football schools still have the lions share of the money, alumni and tv deals and thus the power.

Creating a good TV deal will be THE key factor in the newfangled Big East...as will picking the right members and competing well on the basketball court. There's no doubt it would be a top 5 basketball conference every year if Gtown and Villanova are included.

[xudash]

Conference affiliation is one of a number of key criteria that dictate how effectively a basketball program is run. Saying that the ABC Conference didn't exactly help the XYZ Program does not mean that gaining membership to a better ABC Conference would not benefit Xavier, where the ABC Conference is deemed to be better than the A10. It isn't about BC, as one example, AUTOMATICALLY GETTING BETTER because it joined the ACC. BC still had to address getting an effective coach and focusing other aspects of the program on winning.

Otherwise, the BE Catholic Schools + Xavier WOULD BE BETTER than the A10 "as-is" with Xavier in it. The A10 truly has structural membership flaws, including LaSalle and SBU, which are under-resourced and poorly positioned for the modern era, Fordham, which simply doesn't understand the value of athletics, and Duquesne, which continues to spit and sputter as it tries to fight its way back.

[DoubleD86]

I don't quite see the big boost in talent or overall relevance that the Big East supposedly gave Marquette, UC, Depaul, and Louisville.

I think X fans are kidding themselves when they think that Big East affiliation would bring X to the next level.

Edit: also another example is Va tech. Within a 15 year span they dramatically increased the prestige of their conference affiliation by moving from the A10 to the Big East and subsequently to the ACC. But they did it through their excellent football team. Their basketball team tagged along for the ride.

But did their basketball team receive a lot of benefits from moving to the most prestigious basketball conference in college basketball? Not really. Their talent level has increased, but not in a dramatic way. They haven't done a lot of damage in the NCAA tourney. And they are having trouble keeping their coach even though he has had only modest accomplishments.

Did Boston College's basketball program benefit from their affiliation with the ACC?

There have been a lot of conference changes in the past 15 years. Please, someone give me an example of how a conference change boosted a schools basketball program.

I absolutely do think Marquette, UL and UC have had access to better recruits since their move to the Big East. Yes, UC hasn't had the results they would like but they have gotten a five star recruit in Yancy (yes I know he was a UC fan). Also, Biggie and Wilks were both 4 star recruits. Then add in guys like Cash and Lance (I don't care if they were one of the only ones recruiting him, he wasn't going there without them being in a premier conference). So yes, I absolutely do think those schools show that doors are easier to open in recruiting with a name like the Big East attached. Look at a school like UL, they have access to the top recruits in the nation in the Big East.

Also, you conveniently picked two football driven schools to make your point. No, Va Tech and Boston College didn't see a huge increase in success basketball wise but they have both done better on the recruiting trail. Va Tech has had some very good players come through and currently have 3 four stars committed for this year and next so far (yes, I know Xavier does too, but Xavier also has much better results and performance to use to recruit). Another example is N.C. State. They have done little to nothing nationally for the past 5 years yet have one of the best recruiting classes come in next year. You think this happens if they are the exact same program yet in the A-10?

Recruits absolutely want to play in the best conferences against the best competition on the highest stages and on national tv. Reading interviews with a couple of recruits will show you mention of this quite often. Heck, even when Xavier lands a big recruit they all seem to mention how they act as a big conference school and offer many of the same things the others do. The recruits are clearly looking for those type of things. In recruiting there is a large list of things players are looking for, and if you think a top conference isn't one of those things that attracts recruits then I strongly disagree. Think of a kid like Anthony Davis. X gets in early and gets interest in him, then he blows up. Next thing you know he has interest from the top Big 6 schools and poof X is gone from the list. While this is a little extreme because he is attracting the top programs in the country, this isn't a unique situation. We as fans even mention how X has been so good getting in on kids early who later blow up but we have such a good position already (re: Gary Harris). This becomes so much less of a necessity if we have a banner like the Big East and a MSG conference tournament to bring to the table in recruiting as well.

I think your examples are very poor since you either use primarily football schools where basketball is an afterthought, which doesn't compare to XU, and schools you claim haven't had the increase in success upon moving who I think actually have in the terms we are talking, which is recruiting.

Edit: Your one good example was Depaul, but Depaul was not as successful as X prior to the move and does not put the same number of resources into the basketball team that X does. They were brought over purely for the Chicago market and have not seen the increase in talent/success due to other reasons than the Big East. But for argument's sake, answer me this. Which is more likely, and has an easier road to building up to a successful program: Lasalle/St. Bonaventure/Fordham or Depaul? I think it is much more likely that a St. John's or Depaul can build up with a good recruiter as a coach and I think a VERY large part of that is offering lots of playing time in one of the two premier basketball conferences in the country.

[GuyFawkes38]

DoubleD86, I think your basic argument is, "Yes, it's not translating to actual success, but just look how good Marquette and UC are doing with the recruiting magazines". I find that argument to be a bit weak.

I am particularly proud of my Marquette example since they are so similar to X (much more so than Depaul). I guess you can point to some recruiting rankings to show some improvement there. But as far as talent on the court goes, they haven't really improved. UC has always been able to attract a lot of talent. Again, I'm not sure if there's an improvement.

I think I acknowledged that Va tech has improved recruiting.

But again, not much improvement with actual success. My theory is that top 10 schools across the country get unbelievable talent....top 30 player talent. But after that top 30 player mark, you can pretty much toss out the rankings (I think we are learning that with Frease). And in fact, the rankings tend to be a bit biased towards ranking players going to top conferences higher.

[DoubleD86]

DoubleD86, I think your basic argument is, "Yes, it's not translating to actual success, but just look how good Marquette and UC are doing with the recruiting magazines". I find that argument to be a bit weak.

I am particularly proud of my Marquette example since they are so similar to X (much more so than Depaul). I guess you can point to some recruiting rankings to show some improvement there. But as far as talent on the court goes, they haven't really improved. UC has always been able to attract a lot of talent. Again, I'm not sure if there's an improvement.

I think I acknowledged that Va tech has improved recruiting.

But again, not much improvement with actual success. My theory is that top 10 schools across the country get unbelievable talent....top 30 player talent. But after that top 30 player mark, you can pretty much toss out the rankings (I think we are learning that with Frease). And in fact, the rankings tend to be a bit biased towards ranking players going to top conferences higher.

So you respond to the issue of whether or not moving to the Big East would improve recruiting by dismissing recruiting success and only focusing on the success on the court? How does that make sense?

As for Marquette, how can you argue they have not increased their talent and success? They have made the tournament every year since their move to the Big East except the initial year. That is after only 4 appearances in the 10 years in the C-USA. Don't use Dwayne Wade as an argument that they could get just as good of talent in the C-USA because they beat out Illinois State and Depaul for his services. The recruiting rankings, talent on the court, and success on the court have all increased for Marquette. While I don't have the numbers, I am confident that the revenue has also increased by a large margin for Marquette as well. In fact, I think Marquette is the perfect example of how moving to the Big East would push Xavier to the next level, and since Xavier is a better program now than Marquette was when they moved, it is not unrealistic to think a move to the Big East could push Xavier into one of the top 15 programs in the country every year.

[GuyFawkes38]

Maybe I was a little off by implying that Marquette hasn't experienced much success in the Big East. I guess they have been a solid upper middle of the road Big East team.

But I think it has been modest. And ultimately, they haven't exactly had a lot of post season success.

And it is worth noting that Marquette poured a ton of cash into their program before they entered the Big East. Crean had a multimillion dollar salary and Marquette renovated their practice facilities.


So you respond to the issue of whether or not moving to the Big East would improve recruiting by dismissing recruiting success and only focusing on the success on the court? How does that make sense?

yes, it makes perfect sense to question the worth of recruiting rankings if they don't translate to the court.

[DoubleD86]

yes, it makes perfect sense to question the worth of recruiting rankings if they don't translate to the court.

So what do you look at as successful recruiting? While some are maybe overrated, don't you think things such as coaching, attitude, and development can contribute to the lack of success. Don't Xavier fans pride themselves on taking less than stellar recruits and developing and building players? So is it that recruits are judged on how they end or coaching staffs are judged by how they develop players?

The fact is that recruiting rankings are the best way to look at recruiting success. Now, just getting high rated recruits does not ensure success but that does not diminish the success on the recruiting trail. The rest of success is attributed to the skill and success of the coaching staff as well as the attitude, cohesion, and work ethic of the players.

[GuyFawkes38]

So what do you look at as successful recruiting? While some are maybe overrated, don't you think things such as coaching, attitude, and development can contribute to the lack of success. Don't Xavier fans pride themselves on taking less than stellar recruits and developing and building players? So is it that recruits are judged on how they end or coaching staffs are judged by how they develop players?

The fact is that recruiting rankings are the best way to look at recruiting success. Now, just getting high rated recruits does not ensure success but that does not diminish the success on the recruiting trail. The rest of success is attributed to the skill and success of the coaching staff as well as the attitude, cohesion, and work ethic of the players.

But ultimately, looking at the big picture, shouldn't recruiting success be directly linked to performance on the court and not rankings. I think Thad Matta was a good recruiter because he recruited Justin Doelman and Josh Duncan, not Churchill Odia, who was highly ranked.

And I really do think that outside of the top 30 players of the country (who generally go to the top, top schools), there's a whole lot of uncertainty. So much so, that magazine recruitment experts have a tendency to rank players not objectively on their talent, but on what schools are interested in them.

[_LH]

First of all you are a retard. Second of all, the 8th best team in the Big East gets in the Dance while the A-10 is usually trying to scrape up three. It is a no brainer that Xavier would leave for the Big East.

In fact, Father Graham would accept while on the phone. In fact, if Father Graham's call waiting said "Big East Offices", he would answer with a "yes, Xavier would love to". Let's just hope the question isn't "Would you like to play St. Johns every year in an OOC game".

third of all, did I mention you are a retard?

xu95

Clearly the only retard here is you. XU is far better off in the A10 as it is now than the BE as it is now. XU can get at large bids and play in a Final 4 out of the A10, so what do they gain by joining a league that would be much harder to get bids into the post season.

[X-band '01]

Did Boston College's basketball program benefit from their affiliation with the ACC?

There have been a lot of conference changes in the past 15 years. Please, someone give me an example of how a conference change boosted a schools basketball program.

You can argue that BC has n't gotten better joining the ACC, but this is an example of the conference trying to a)enter the Boston/Northeastern TV market and b)get that conference to 12 teams in order to field a football championship. Unfortunately, ticket sales and TV ratings for the ACC title game have been historically crappy. (It doesn't help that traditional powers like Clemson, Florida State, and Miami have been very mediocre since expansion). Basketball is top dog with their fans, and the ACC basketball tournament is second only to the NCAA Tournament in terms of fan popularity.

Given how they've burned bridges with the old Big East guard, I'd have a hard time imagining them trying to get along with former Big East teams if the latest shuffle actually reunites them with teams like UConn, Syracuse, etc.

I would say that Colorado is the Pac-10 equivalent of BC in terms of what they can bring to their conference, but at least BC will go to bowl games and win most of them, unlike Colorado. It's not just wins and losses, it's who can turn the needle for TV ratings.

[xu95]

Clearly the only retard here is you. XU is far better off in the A10 as it is now than the BE as it is now. XU can get at large bids and play in a Final 4 out of the A10, so what do they gain by joining a league that would be much harder to get bids into the post season.

So your argument isn't what league is better for Xavier, but what league would it be easier to get an at large bid in.

I still disagree with you. Your original question was "sans Notre Dame would you rather be in the BE or the A-10".

Once again, Big East. I would rather play G-Town than G Washington. I would rather play Villanova than Lasalle. I would rather play Syracuse than St. Bonaventure. I could continue with a very long list of schools that have been very successful over the last 15 years. Too bad you are happy with mediocrity.

xu95

[Emp]

Assuming one has the option to go to a more competitive league, it's far from certain that it will be better for the university, as a whole or for strictly men's basketball. Xavier non-revenue sports and athletes are not doing that great in the A10, and would be doing a lot worse against the non-football BE teams with which Xavier athletes would be competing. If you want to sacrifice reasonable competition for the non-rev sports, fine. I don't think that is a good idea for Xavier.

The MCC-to-A10 = A10-to-BE analogy is neat, but at least imperfect, and just not apples-to-apples. Using that analogy, a move to the Big10 would make us even better, so why not the NBA? At some point the resources of a small school, even with increased TV money, cannot match much larger programs with more resources.

As those who who bought houses that their income stream would not sustain have found out, living within one's means is a wise course. We get to take great vacations (i.e. the NCAA tourney, off shore pre season tourneys) where we are. Why pay a higher mortgage in a tonier neighborhood for the same result?

[xudash]

Assuming one has the option to go to a more competitive league, it's far from certain that it will be better for the university, as a whole or for strictly men's basketball. Xavier non-revenue sports and athletes are not doing that great in the A10, and would be doing a lot worse against the non-football BE teams with which Xavier athletes would be competing. If you want to sacrifice reasonable competition for the non-rev sports, fine. I don't think that is a good idea for Xavier.

The MCC-to-A10 = A10-to-BE analogy is neat, but at least imperfect, and just not apples-to-apples. Using that analogy, a move to the Big10 would make us even better, so why not the NBA? At some point the resources of a small school, even with increased TV money, cannot match much larger programs with more resources.

As those who who bought houses that their income stream would not sustain have found out, living within one's means is a wise course. We get to take great vacations (i.e. the NCAA tourney, off shore pre season tourneys) where we are. Why pay a higher mortgage in a tonier neighborhood for the same result?

Mens hoops - tournament caliber.
Womens hoops - tournament caliber.
Mens golf - tournament caliber.
Mens tennis - tournament caliber.
baseball - tournament caliber.
womens volleyball - tournament caliber.

The above sports all have made it to their respective NCAA tournaments at least in the last 3 to 5 years, with most of them beginning to get there now on a sustainable basis.

The entire idea of moving up - again - in conference affiliation is that we've established a strong foundation for doing it, such that, with good management as we have it, success should come at that higher level, leading to more money, exposure, etc. It isn't guaranteed; nothing ever is, but it should follow.

Believe me, if Father Graham's phone rings and his caller ID registers BE HQ, we are MOVING.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Mens hoops - tournament caliber.
Womens hoops - tournament caliber.
Mens golf - tournament caliber.
Mens tennis - tournament caliber.
baseball - tournament caliber.
womens volleyball - tournament caliber.

The above sports all have made it to their respective NCAA tournaments at least in the last 3 to 5 years, with most of them beginning to get there now on a sustainable basis.

The entire idea of moving up - again - in conference affiliation is that we've established a strong foundation for doing it, such that, with good management as we have it, success should come at that higher level, leading to more money, exposure, etc. It isn't guaranteed; nothing ever is, but it should follow.

Believe me, if Father Graham's phone rings and his caller ID registers BE HQ, we are MOVING.

Also, if/when X moves to a better conference, the recruits will get better (at least in theory I know it doesn't always work out that way)

[Muskie]

I really can't answer without knowing what each conference will look like.

[_LH]

Assuming one has the option to go to a more competitive league, it's far from certain that it will be better for the university, as a whole or for strictly men's basketball. Xavier non-revenue sports and athletes are not doing that great in the A10, and would be doing a lot worse against the non-football BE teams with which Xavier athletes would be competing. If you want to sacrifice reasonable competition for the non-rev sports, fine. I don't think that is a good idea for Xavier.

The MCC-to-A10 = A10-to-BE analogy is neat, but at least imperfect, and just not apples-to-apples. Using that analogy, a move to the Big10 would make us even better, so why not the NBA? At some point the resources of a small school, even with increased TV money, cannot match much larger programs with more resources.

As those who who bought houses that their income stream would not sustain have found out, living within one's means is a wise course. We get to take great vacations (i.e. the NCAA tourney, off shore pre season tourneys) where we are. Why pay a higher mortgage in a tonier neighborhood for the same result?

Good points.

The A10 as it stands now would be better for XU than going to the BE sans ND. It is obvious even if XU95 can't see it.

[X-band '01]

For everyone who's making the claim that moving to the Big East/whatever new basketball conference would hurt Xavier's Olympic sports, answer me this - were these teams consistently winning MCC titles and earning NCAA auto bids in soccer, baseball, swimming, etc?

As long as men's basketball is winning and is capable of winning in a bigger league, they'd be nuts to turn down an invite to a stronger conference. You don't know how many times we're going to see such a shuffle, and other schools will remember if Xavier says no to a stronger conference.

[_LH]

It may well be a case that saying no is not an option for fear of what would happen if one didn't take the offer but that does not mean it would work out best for XU.

[drudy23]

It may well be a case that saying no is not an option for fear of what would happen if one didn't take the offer but that does not mean it would work out best for XU.

So they should just fold up shop because they may have to get their hands dirty?

Hey Bobo....you might fail...well then forget it.

[_LH]

Staying put in a league that allows XU to get at large bids and 3 seeds is hardly folding up shop. Nice try though.

[xu95]

Good points.

The A10 as it stands now would be better for XU than going to the BE sans ND. It is obvious even if XU95 can't see it.

You know, I usually post shit about you as fun and games, but the fact that you are the only one who doesn't think this would be a good move actually makes me think you might be a little mentally slow.

I hear the short bus pulling up outside. Please ask your mom to help you with your shoes.

xu95

[_LH]

Clearly, I'm not the only one that thinks it would be a bad move.

Go ask Fordham or DePaul if moves to more high profile conferences are a slam dunk decision.

XU operates as the top dog in a conference that offers at large bids and top 4 seeds. Why go to a league that its members kill themselves to get 7, 8 and 9 seeds?

XU recruits just fine as a top destination for top 100 recruits. Does Providence out recruit XU, does DePaul?

[GuyFawkes38]

Maybe they just whine too much, but Big East coaches often complain about the conference.

I heard that part of the reason Tom Crean bolted from Marquette was due to his dislike of the conference.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Clearly, I'm not the only one that thinks it would be a bad move.

Go ask Fordham or DePaul if moves to more high profile conferences are a slam dunk decision.

XU operates as the top dog in a conference that offers at large bids and top 4 seeds. Why go to a league that its members kill themselves to get 7, 8 and 9 seeds?
XU recruits just fine as a top destination for top 100 recruits. Does Providence out recruit XU, does DePaul?

What are you talking about? 8 Big East teams made the dance last year. Only one was seeded lower than 6. Including the grossly overseeded Notre Dame. 5 of the teams were 3 seed or better.

[D-West & PO-Z]

In 2009 7 Big East teams made it. Seeds were:

1
1
1
3
3
6
6

[GuyFawkes38]

In 2009 7 Big East teams made it. Seeds were:

1
1
1
3
3
6
6

So no seeds from 6-16.....that seems odd. I don't know exactly what to make of that. Shouldn't a 16 team conference have more even distribution?

A friend claimed a while back that if X was in the Big East their highs would be higher and their lows would be lower. Maybe that distribution points to that (although I disagree with that take).

[_LH]

A friend claimed a while back that if X was in the Big East their highs would be higher and their lows would be lower. Maybe that distribution points to that (although I disagree with that take).

This is a valid point and the climb to the top and trying to stay there is not easy. Look at Georgetown and ND. I would rather get top 4-6 seeds EVERY year out of the A10 instead of getting a 2 seed every 6 years with two of the years out of the 6 going to the NIT or worse.

[smileyy]

With that sort of distribution (3 #1 seeds), there isn't much room for mediocrity in the league (7-12 seeds). Seeds 12+ are all auto-bids.

[smileyy]

Re: the high highs and low lows -- wasn't much the same said when joining the A-10?

[GuyFawkes38]

I really suck at finding stats on the web.

It would be interesting to look at the seeds the Big East has received since expansion. It does seem sort of top heavy. Throughout our history, we have earned a lot of 7-14 seeds. Would those type of teams have more trouble getting into the NCAA tourney in the Big East (of course Big East fan will claim yes...I do think that's a possibility).

of course, it goes without saying that it's hard to earn a 12-16 seed auto bid in the Big East. That's one clear advantage of being in the A10.

[_LH]

Re: the high highs and low lows -- wasn't much the same said when joining the A-10?

XU wasn't getting at large bids with 3 seeds in the MCC though.

[X-band '01]

Clearly, I'm not the only one that thinks it would be a bad move.

Go ask Fordham or DePaul if moves to more high profile conferences are a slam dunk decision.

XU operates as the top dog in a conference that offers at large bids and top 4 seeds. Why go to a league that its members kill themselves to get 7, 8 and 9 seeds?

XU recruits just fine as a top destination for top 100 recruits. Does Providence out recruit XU, does DePaul?

The biggest thing that killed Fordham was killing their scholarships when they moved from the MAAC to the Patriot League in the early 90s. Even with the restoration of scholarships with their move to the A-10, they've never been able to get their fanbase back. A decade of losing in the A-10 certainly didn't help.

I will agree that DePaul is worse off than they were before joining the Big East - even back in their C-USA days they managed an NCAA bid and 1st-round win in one of the most unwatchable NCAA Tournament games.

[smileyy]

Throughout our history, we have earned a lot of 7-14 seeds. Would those type of teams have more trouble getting into the NCAA tourney in the Big East (of course Big East fan will claim yes...I do think that's a possibility).


Those teams would also have had their SOS buoyed by playing in the Big East, as opposed to the A-10 or MCC.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I really suck at finding stats on the web.

It would be interesting to look at the seeds the Big East has received since expansion. It does seem sort of top heavy. Throughout our history, we have earned a lot of 7-14 seeds. Would those type of teams have more trouble getting into the NCAA tourney in the Big East (of course Big East fan will claim yes...I do think that's a possibility).

of course, it goes without saying that it's hard to earn a 12-16 seed auto bid in the Big East. That's one clear advantage of being in the A10.

Since the Big East expanded in 2006 the seeds are as follows:

2006:
1
1
5
5
6
7
7
10

2007:
2
3
6
6
8
9

2008:
2
3
4
4
5
6
7
12 (at large bid)

2009:
1
1
1
3
3
6
6

2010:
1
2
2
3
3
6
6
9

Thats 37 bids since 2006. Only 21% (8 bids) have been a 7 seed or lower and only 13% (5 bids) have been an 8 seed or lower. Not exactly teams fighting for 7, 8, and 9 seeds every year as LH would suggest.

[muskienick]

Clearly, I'm not the only one that thinks it would be a bad move.

Go ask Fordham or DePaul if moves to more high profile conferences are a slam dunk decision.

XU operates as the top dog in a conference that offers at large bids and top 4 seeds. Why go to a league that its members kill themselves to get 7, 8 and 9 seeds?

XU recruits just fine as a top destination for top 100 recruits. Does Providence out recruit XU, does DePaul?

Neither Fordham nor DePaul had the same level of continued success in their previous leagues as the Muskies did in the MCC. We expect to succeed wherever and whomever we play. The same attitude was not true of either Fordham or DePaul.

Furthermore, LH, the question is not so much "success" in the standings; it is success in the bank account, fannies in the stands, TV and radio contracts, national rankings, and NCAA invitations and seedings. Those are the things that elevate a committed program like Xavier (as opposed to laissez faire programs such as Fordham and DePaul).

I was really pleased to be able to use a French adjective to describe the Rams and Blue Demons! It seems so appropriate!

In conclusion, Xavier can still successfully reach the Final Four and maybe even a NC while a member of the A-10 but it will not be the result of Conference affiliation. It will be through internal drive, committment, and determination (not to mention one helluva good coaching staff and great recruiting). I firmly believe that XU would reach greater levels of success with a greatly improved A-10 or membership in a future Conference consisting of eastern and midwestern members of similar basketball commitment (and no desire for big-time football).

[SixFig]

If your goal is to win a National Championship then you need to recruit like one. Obviously Chris Mack is doing a helluva job right now...just think what he could do if we were in the Big East?

Perception is reality and in some minds we are just in too crappy a conference with too little TV exposure. Opposing coaches still use that against us and you best believe it is effective.



If you truly are too afraid Xavier will fail...I just don't know what to say.

[GuyFawkes38]

If your goal is to win a National Championship then you need to recruit like one. Obviously Chris Mack is doing a helluva job right now...just think what he could do if we were in the Big East?

Perception is reality and in some minds we are just in too crappy a conference with too little TV exposure. Opposing coaches still use that against us and you best believe it is effective.



If you truly are too afraid Xavier will fail...I just don't know what to say.

Of course, I could be wrong. But I really do think that recruits are a lot less obsessed with conference affiliation (including TV exposure) than most people think.

Above all, I believe that recruits want to a play with a team with good NCAA tourney success, a history of taking players to the NBA, a coach they like, and great facilities (basically the type of stuff which gives the recruits the best chance to play in the NBA).

I read an interview of Calipari when he was at Memphis. He was asked if Memphis' conference affiliation hurt recruiting. He argued that it wasn't a factor because ultimately players want to play at the place which gives them the best chance to move on to a professional league. They don't care about conference or even school history.

Of course, most schools that offer those type of things are affiliated with BCS conferences. But that doesn't mean that BCS conference affiliation is, in itself, the draw.

[Muskie1000]

I think it really depends on the type of player that you are. For example, the recruits that land at Kentucky - we don't have a prayer of getting those type - why? Most are one and done and that's really not what X is about. Those players want high exposure all the time and how much exposure do you think they would really get when we play the likes of Fordham, Duquesne, LaSalle, etc... However, we are quite capable of getting most of the other kinds of recruits and the beauty of our program is that not only can they get a fantastic degree (unlike say UC) and you have a good shot of earning playing time. Walsh is the exception rather than the norm. Most of our highly touted recruits end up with significant playing time.

[_LH]

The other teams that end up not making it from the BE, 8-9 team annually, are certainly fighting to get in the dance and would be 7-10 seeds if they got in.

[_LH]

Neither Fordham nor DePaul had the same level of continued success in their previous leagues as the Muskies did in the MCC. We expect to succeed wherever and whomever we play. The same attitude was not true of either Fordham or DePaul.

Furthermore, LH, the question is not so much "success" in the standings; it is success in the bank account, fannies in the stands, TV and radio contracts, national rankings, and NCAA invitations and seedings. Those are the things that elevate a committed program like Xavier (as opposed to laissez faire programs such as Fordham and DePaul).

I was really pleased to be able to use a French adjective to describe the Rams and Blue Demons! It seems so appropriate!

In conclusion, Xavier can still successfully reach the Final Four and maybe even a NC while a member of the A-10 but it will not be the result of Conference affiliation. It will be through internal drive, committment, and determination (not to mention one helluva good coaching staff and great recruiting). I firmly believe that XU would reach greater levels of success with a greatly improved A-10 or membership in a future Conference consisting of eastern and midwestern members of similar basketball commitment (and no desire for big-time football).

There maybe more money joining the BE there may not but joining the BE does not guarantee that XU will continue to be the top program they are right now. The shear size of the league makes it very hard to dance every single year and its hard to make a surprise run in the NCAA's if you're not in it, just ask UD.

[D-West & PO-Z]

The other teams that end up not making it from the BE, 8-9 team annually, are certainly fighting to get in the dance and would be 7-10 seeds if they got in.

Those teams almost never deserve to get in. ND looked to be somewhere in that 8-10 seed range last year and ended up with a 6 seed. Temple on the other hand (while they shit the bed in the tournament) deserved what most people thought should be a 3 seed and ended up getting screwed. I dont think XU would have a hard time being in the top 8 almost every year in the Big East. And when you are in the top 8 in that conference you are usually getting a pretty good seed.

[_LH]

Those teams almost never deserve to get in. ND looked to be somewhere in that 8-10 seed range last year and ended up with a 6 seed. Temple on the other hand (while they shit the bed in the tournament) deserved what most people thought should be a 3 seed and ended up getting screwed. I dont think XU would have a hard time being in the top 8 almost every year in the Big East. And when you are in the top 8 in that conference you are usually getting a pretty good seed.

I'm sure Marquette thinks they should be in the top 8 every year as well and so does ND but it is not an easy task, especially for a new entrant. Basically the upside to joining the BE as it stands right now is not enough to convice me it is a better place for XU than the current A10. I would however, love to eventually be in a revamped BE with Georgetown, Villanova, etc. but not DI football playing schools.

[DoubleD86]

I'm sure Marquette thinks they should be in the top 8 every year.

You are right, they probably do:
2006- 4th place
2007- 6th place
2008- 5th place
2009- 5th place
2010- 5th place

Xavier is quite similar to Marquette in that their focus is on the basketball program and how much they invest in their basketball program, and I think they are a good program to look at as a comparison. In my opinion, Marquette has flourished in the Big East and I have no reason to believe that Xavier wouldn't as well.

While I don't think ND is a good comp, here are their numbers as well:
2006- 12th place
2007- 4th place
2008- 2nd place
2009- 9th place
2010- 8th place

Still have been pretty successful and I believe have made the tourney every year but 2006.

[D-West & PO-Z]

You are right, they probably do:
2006- 4th place
2007- 6th place
2008- 5th place
2009- 5th place
2010- 5th place

Xavier is quite similar to Marquette in that their focus is on the basketball program and how much they invest in their basketball program, and I think they are a good program to look at as a comparison. In my opinion, Marquette has flourished in the Big East and I have no reason to believe that Xavier wouldn't as well.

While I don't think ND is a good comp, here are their numbers as well:
2006- 12th place
2007- 4th place
2008- 2nd place
2009- 9th place
2010- 8th place

Still have been pretty successful and I believe have made the tourney every year but 2006.

Hahahahahahahhahahahha.

I dont know where this perception came from that Marquette has not succeeded in the Big East. Oh wait ya I do, GuyFawkes making stuff up and then LH running with it. Just because Marquette went to the Final Four before getting to the Big East and hasnt returned since doesnt mean they arent having success. It is hard to get to the Final Four in any conference for any team. Marquette is a great comparison for Xavier.

Reps to you doubleD.

[GuyFawkes38]

Whatever. no one cares where Marquette finished in the Big East. It all comes down to how well you play in the NCAA tourney.

Calling Marquette's last 5 years a success seems more than off without them advancing to the sweet 16. That's all that matters in college basketball now.

It's hard to believe that Dwest isn't a little concerned that the Big East doesn't seem to get many seeds from 7-16 (something that he considers to be a triumph of the Big East). I get annoyed when Big East teams bitch, but maybe there is something to that bitching.

[_LH]

You are right, they probably do:
2006- 4th place
2007- 6th place
2008- 5th place
2009- 5th place
2010- 5th place

Xavier is quite similar to Marquette in that their focus is on the basketball program and how much they invest in their basketball program, and I think they are a good program to look at as a comparison. In my opinion, Marquette has flourished in the Big East and I have no reason to believe that Xavier wouldn't as well.

While I don't think ND is a good comp, here are their numbers as well:
2006- 12th place
2007- 4th place
2008- 2nd place
2009- 9th place
2010- 8th place

Still have been pretty successful and I believe have made the tourney every year but 2006.

Now let's see where both Marquette and ND finish the next 4 years and why is ND not a good comparison? They demonstrate perfectly how hard it is to stay in the top 8 year in and year out and get bids each and every year (like XU does now).

There are more draw backs to joining a 16 team BE than there are pluses for XU compared to what they can and have acheived in the A10 as the top team.

[DC Muskie]

I don't know how going to the Final Four in one conference, then move to a bigger conference and not making the Final Four is somehow improving the program.

That's a head scratcher.

Marquette has not been to the Sweet 16 since they joined the Big East. They have yet to win the Big East, or the Big East tournament. In fact they have yet to play for a Big East tournament title.

So if we are a good comparison to Marquette...

They go to the Final Four, move, and can't get past the second round.

We go to the Elite Eight twice, and who knows...

[D-West & PO-Z]

Because the Final 4 was a pretty isolated incident and it isnt because of being in the Big East that Marquette isnt getting to the Final 4. They actually almost lost in the first rd that year, not that it really matters.

Any way check this out. Marquette has now been in the Big East for 5 years. Their NCAA seeds are as follows:

09-10: 6 seed
08-09: 6 seed
07-08: 6 seed
06-07: 8 seed
05-06: 7 seed

Compare that to their last 5 years in the CUSA and it is the following:

04-05: NIT
03-04: NIT
02-03: 3 seed Final 4
01-02: 5 seed first rd loss
00-01: No postseason tournament

They had a great NCAA tournament run one year in the NCAA but it wasnt because they were in the CUSA. 3 of their last 5 years they did not make the NCAA tournament and one of them they didnt even make the NIT. Since joining the Big East they have made the tournament every year.

Not advancing far in the NCAA tournament was not something new that just started to happen to Marquette when they joined the Big East.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Whatever. no one cares where Marquette finished in the Big East. It all comes down to how well you play in the NCAA tourney.

Calling Marquette's last 5 years a success seems more than off without them advancing to the sweet 16. That's all that matters in college basketball now.

It's hard to believe that Dwest isn't a little concerned that the Big East doesn't seem to get many seeds from 7-16 (something that he considers to be a triumph of the Big East). I get annoyed when Big East teams bitch, but maybe there is something to that bitching.

Thats because half of their conference gets into the tournament every year and they get good seeds when they get in. I am confident Xavier could be a top half Big East team.

I am not trying to take the A10 for granted. We have a pretty good situation going, but if Xavier got an invite to the Big East for some reason I would not expect them to turn it down.

[xu95]

Since the Big East expanded in 2006 the seeds are as follows:

2006:
1
1
5
5
6
7
7
10

2007:
2
3
6
6
8
9

2008:
2
3
4
4
5
6
7
12 (at large bid)

2009:
1
1
1
3
3
6
6

2010:
1
2
2
3
3
6
6
9

Thats 37 bids since 2006. Only 21% (8 bids) have been a 7 seed or lower and only 13% (5 bids) have been an 8 seed or lower. Not exactly teams fighting for 7, 8, and 9 seeds every year as LH would suggest.

Don't let facts get in the way of showing how much of an idiot LH is. The sad part is he has never NEVER admitted he was wrong so he will continue down this path until he blows up.

I actually quite enjoy it.

xu95

[GuyFawkes38]

Thats because half of their conference gets into the tournament every year and they get good seeds when they get in. I am confident Xavier could be a top half Big East team.

I am not trying to take the A10 for granted. We have a pretty good situation going, but if Xavier got an invite to the Big East for some reason I would not expect them to turn it down.

yeah, it seems like a lot of teams go into the Big East tourney with some work to be done. But if they are in that situation, chances are they will have to play a top 10-15 ranked team in the 1st or 2nd round. That's not an easy position to be in. I'm sure they would rather play a top 40 team and get a 10-12 seed than beat a top 10-15 team and earn a 7-8 seed.

That's one thing the A10 has going for it. Look at Dayton this year. They first got to play a crappy GW team in the A10 tourney. Then they got to play us, a much more beatable team than Syracuse, for example (of course, that being said, A10 bubble teams somehow managed to fail in the A10 tourney).

[muskienick]

There maybe more money joining the BE there may not but joining the BE does not guarantee that XU will continue to be the top program they are right now. The shear size of the league makes it very hard to dance every single year and its hard to make a surprise run in the NCAA's if you're not in it, just ask UD.

If Xavier were ever to become a member of the Big East, it wouldn't be the same Big East as it is now! Your logic (?) in this discourse is totally off base. It (a Big East with Xavier) would almost certainly be better than today's A-10 and, as a matter of fact, it would likely be smaller than the current A-10 as well (with 12 members the probable maximum).

So you are consistent in your "wrongness" in your arguments. Give it up.

[muskiefan82]

Then they got to play us, a much more beatable team than Syracuse, for example (of course, that being said, A10 bubble teams somehow managed to fail in the A10 tourney).

Excuse me? Xavier is "much more" beatable than Syracuse? Dude.

[_LH]

Don't let facts get in the way of showing how much of an idiot LH is. The sad part is he has never NEVER admitted he was wrong so he will continue down this path until he blows up.

I actually quite enjoy it.

xu95

How was I wrong? Are you saying that the team that eventually go to the NIT from the BE are NOT fighting for 7-10 seeds? You'd better let them know that.

[_LH]

If Xavier were ever to become a member of the Big East, it wouldn't be the same Big East as it is now! Your logic (?) in this discourse is totally off base. It (a Big East with Xavier) would almost certainly be better than today's A-10 and, as a matter of fact, it would likely be smaller than the current A-10 as well (with 12 members the probable maximum).

So you are consistent in your "wrongness" in your arguments. Give it up.

Incorrect. Read the thread. My fictional question and scenario has XU simply replacing ND and the BE being the same otherwise but thanks for your late if not ignorant contribution to the discussion.

[GuyFawkes38]

Excuse me? Xavier is "much more" beatable than Syracuse? Dude.

You know what I'm saying. If you have work to be done in the conference tourney you'd much rather play in the A10 than the Big East where you'll likely have to beat a top 10 team.

[D-West & PO-Z]

How was I wrong? Are you saying that the team that eventually go to the NIT from the BE are NOT fighting for 7-10 seeds? You'd better let them know that.

More than 8 teams from one conference are not going to get into the NCAA tournament, so no none of them in the NIT are fighting for 7-10 seeds. Sometimes a team who gets in from the Big East gets a 7-10 seed but more often than not they are 6 seeds or better.

[muskienick]

Incorrect. Read the thread. My fictional question and scenario has XU simply replacing ND and the BE being the same otherwise but thanks for your late if not ignorant contribution to the discussion.

Your "fictional question and scenario" are ridiculous! XU would never be selected to replace ND due to what q has been trying to beat into your head for years: as long as UC is in the Big East, Xavier will not be permitted to become a member. Only the A-10 is silly enough to have multiple institutions from the same City as members of its conference. Therefore, why would you even propose that as a scenario?????

[_LH]

Nick,

If you don't like the question or scenario I used on this thread, then don't respond. It is that simple. And I never said that it was likely to happen or would happen, I just wanted to see what people thought was XU's best course between joining a bloated 16 team BE minus ND or to stay as the top dog in the A10.

[SixFig]

LH is looking at the worst case scenario if we entered the BE. What is the best case (ie Xavier thrives and is a top 3 finisher in the BE)?

We get better recruits, more revenue, more exposure, better games, more games on national tv, not stuck with lasalle and fordham, improved SOS, improved public perception and much much more.

XU will never join the 16 team Big East but it is nice to dream.

[xudash]

LH is looking at the worst case scenario if we entered the BE. What is the best case (ie Xavier thrives and is a top 3 finisher in the BE)?

We get better recruits, more revenue, more exposure, better games, more games on national tv, not stuck with lasalle and fordham, improved SOS, improved public perception and much much more.

XU will never join the 16 team Big East but it is nice to dream.

You are spot on.

It was never about Xavier joining a BE where the football schools were still a part of it. It has been about the idea of moving to a hoops-centric BE due to a split of the existing conference. And there can be no question about that still being a better alternative for Xavier than the A10 for all the reasons you mentioned.

If, as an example we trade LaSalle for DePaul as the worst team in our league, who on earth wouldn't take that. I believe, with or without further BCS aggregation, that there will be sufficient room for a top-flight hoops-centric league in the collegiate sport. The A10 is trying to do that now, but is saddled with crap at the bottom.

Aligning with the BE hoops schools and perhaps a couple other key additions would make for such a league.

[xu95]

How was I wrong? Are you saying that the team that eventually go to the NIT from the BE are NOT fighting for 7-10 seeds? You'd better let them know that.

You are wrong in stating that putting Xavier in the Big East as it currently stands minus ND would not be better than the A-10. Tell me which team (minus Xavier) in the A-10 was better last year than West Virginia, Syracuse, Georgetown, Pitt, Louisville, and Marquette. All of those teams made the NCAA tournament with a better seed than the team that won the A-10 Tournament (and ended tied for first place in our conference).

So yes, Xavier in the BE as it currently stands minus ND would be far superior to the A-10 and only a moron like you would think otherwise.

Why do I let myself get into pissing matches with a two year old?

xu95

[sweet16]

You are wrong in stating that putting Xavier in the Big East as it currently stands minus ND would not be better than the A-10. Tell me which team (minus Xavier) in the A-10 was better last year than West Virginia, Syracuse, Georgetown, Pitt, Louisville, and Marquette. All of those teams made the NCAA tournament with a better seed than the team that won the A-10 Tournament (and ended tied for first place in our conference).

So yes, Xavier in the BE as it currently stands minus ND would be far superior to the A-10 and only a moron like you would think otherwise.

Why do I let myself get into pissing matches with a two year old?

xu95

LH....keep the faith brother. I've had some disagreements with xu95 as well and it seems that when he gets frustrated trying to articulate a point he resorts to name calling. He's sometimes close to the mark but more often than not he finds himself either missing the basic premise of an argument or the nuance. Clearly he doesn't understand the point or argument you are making with your example.

[_LH]

You are wrong in stating that putting Xavier in the Big East as it currently stands minus ND would not be better than the A-10. Tell me which team (minus Xavier) in the A-10 was better last year than West Virginia, Syracuse, Georgetown, Pitt, Louisville, and Marquette. All of those teams made the NCAA tournament with a better seed than the team that won the A-10 Tournament (and ended tied for first place in our conference).

So yes, Xavier in the BE as it currently stands minus ND would be far superior to the A-10 and only a moron like you would think otherwise.

Why do I let myself get into pissing matches with a two year old?

xu95

I'm right actually.

I never said the teams in the A10 were better than BE teams but the A10 is the best place for XU to be, as I have explained, if the other option is to be in the BE as it stands now san ND.

[_LH]

LH....keep the faith brother. I've had some disagreements with xu95 as well and it seems that when he gets frustrated trying to articulate a point he resorts to name calling. He's sometimes close to the mark but more often than not he finds himself either missing the basic premise of an argument or the nuance. Clearly he doesn't understand the point or argument you are making with your example.

Clearly he is clueless. ;)

[muskienick]

I'm right actually.

I never said the teams in the A10 were better than BE teams but the A10 is the best place for XU to be, as I have explained, if the other option is to be in the BE as it stands now san ND.

Please explain why you think X's current place in the A-10 is better than if we were to take ND's place in the Big East. I think that's what many of us are scratching our heads about! Wouldn'r we be better off in every way playing the likes of G-town, Villanova, Marquette, Syracuse, West Virginia (Huggins nothwithstanding), Pitt, etc. on a yearly basis instead of St. Joe's, Temple, UMass, Dayton, Richmond, Charlotte, etc.? We'd have a btter opportunity to retain or even improve our RPI during the Conference season for the first time since they started the RPI system. We'd have instant respect on the national scene that is not a factor as a member of the A-10. We'd likely get higher seeds in the NCAA Tourney (based on those given to BE invitees over the last 5-10 years). We'd probably be on far more nationally televised games due to the more frequent matchups against ranked teams. We'd get a lot more annual income from the League office from shares earned by members through participation in the NCAA Tourney and the League's TV contract. Our excellent recruiting as it already exists now (through the efforts of Xavier's commitment to that aspect of the budget and due to the great work by our coaching staff) will skyrocket due to many of the factors listed above. We would be members of a Conference that is not satisfied having its members play most of their games in high school-like gyms and commonly have home game attendance figures of less than 3,000 people.

But you go ahead and tell us your rationale for preferring the A-10.

[_LH]

I already did this Nick.

[muskienick]

I already did this Nick.

LH,

Whatever you may have said earlier in this thread cannot outweigh the huge benefits Xavier would accrue as a member of a BB-driven Big East.

[_LH]

Tell that to Seton Hall, DePaul, Providence, St. John's. :rolleyes:

Oh and the discussion is about XU joining a FOOTBALL driven BE. Pay attention!!

[xu95]

Tell that to Seton Hall, DePaul, Providence, St. John's. :rolleyes:

Oh and the discussion is about XU joining a FOOTBALL driven BE. Pay attention!!

Of which all of the basketball schools in the Big East get more money from the conference than Xavier does from the A-10.

More money - check
more exposure - check
more chances at higher recruits - check

The only reason I can see you arguing for staying in the A-10 is because you have no faith in your school.

Is that true LH? Do you not think Xavier can be successful in the BE? The shame of it all. LH does not have faith in his school.

xu95

[xu95]

LH....keep the faith brother. I've had some disagreements with xu95 as well and it seems that when he gets frustrated trying to articulate a point he resorts to name calling. He's sometimes close to the mark but more often than not he finds himself either missing the basic premise of an argument or the nuance. Clearly he doesn't understand the point or argument you are making with your example.

Give me one example that LH has made that was even coherent enough to make you think that the A-10 is better for us than the BE?

xu95

[_LH]

Of which all of the basketball schools in the Big East get more money from the conference than Xavier does from the A-10.

More money - check
more exposure - check
more chances at higher recruits - check

The only reason I can see you arguing for staying in the A-10 is because you have no faith in your school.

Is that true LH? Do you not think Xavier can be successful in the BE? The shame of it all. LH does not have faith in his school.

xu95

You simply don't get it and will leave it at that.

[sweet16]

Give me one example that LH has made that was even coherent enough to make you think that the A-10 is better for us than the BE?

xu95

Nope.....not going to get dragged into this one. LH made the comment.....he should defend it. My only point was that LH's contention and the basis of his argument was that the A10 may be a better fit for XU than the BE. He never said that the A10 was a better conference than the BE.......to the contrary I think he even stated (without going back and reading the entire thread) that the BE was better than the A10. You and a few others started arguing that the BE was a better conference and that was never his point.

[xu95]

You simply don't get it and will leave it at that.

You are absolutely right LH. The school doesn't want to make more money, get more exposure, and have a better chance of getting a good seed in the tournament.

You are absolutely right. The A-10 is a much better fit for Xavier than the Big East.

xu95

[xu95]

Nope.....not going to get dragged into this one. LH made the comment.....he should defend it. My only point was that LH's contention and the basis of his argument was that the A10 may be a better fit for XU than the BE. He never said that the A10 was a better conference than the BE.......to the contrary I think he even stated (without going back and reading the entire thread) that the BE was better than the A10. You and a few others started arguing that the BE was a better conference and that was never his point.

Here is the problem. Everyone who disagreed with LH was wrong, so therefore, he didn't state his opinion, he believes what he stated was fact.

You are correct, I let myself get trapped down a rabbit hole but I have found my way out.

I just wish this board had an ignore function. I like the A-10 board a lot better since I started ignoring LH's posts and don't have to worry about becoming "stupider" for it.

xu95

[_LH]

Does Seton Hall basketball make more than Xavier basketball?

XU is top 20 every year in the richest basketball programs. I didn't see Seton Hall in the top 20.

[_LH]

Here is the problem. Everyone who disagreed with LH was wrong, so therefore, he didn't state his opinion, he believes what he stated was fact.

You are correct, I let myself get trapped down a rabbit hole but I have found my way out.

I just wish this board had an ignore function. I like the A-10 board a lot better since I started ignoring LH's posts and don't have to worry about becoming "stupider" for it.

xu95

The problem was you did not (as ususal) understand the debate and obviously still don't.

[xu95]

Does Seton Hall basketball make more than Xavier basketball?

XU is top 20 every year in the richest basketball programs. I didn't see Seton Hall in the top 20.

You keep comparing us to Seton Hall. THat shows little faith by you on our school and our administration.

Seton Hall hired Gonzalez. that is all you need to know about Seton Hall.

You act like we are all of a sudden going to become shitty because we switch conferences. Have a little faith in your school man. Grow a sack.

xu95

[_LH]

Seton Hall is a good comparison. No football, small catholic school. XU also looked (at least fans did) at hiring Gonzales.

You automatically think XU will have smashing success in joining a 16 team BE with nothing to back uo your ignorant contention.

[xu95]

The problem was you did not (as ususal) understand the debate and obviously still don't.

I understood the debate. The debate was (and still is) that the Big East would be better for Xavier than the A-10. I added my two cents. 1) More money, 2) better exposure, 3) more name recognition with recruits.

I will break down each one individually for you since your brain doesn't seem to comprehend.

1) More Money - The big east has a much better TV contract then the A-10 and the league gets more "credits" from the NCAA for the tournament. Each of the 16 schools in the Big East received more payout than any of the 14 schools in the A-10. That would not change when you add a school that goes the the tournament on a yearly basis.

2) Better Exposure - See #1 above. EVERY Big East basketball game is on the ESPN network family. EVERY game. Now I realize we almost have all of our games aired as well, but I guarantee you more people have ESPN or ESPN2 on their cable network than Fox Sports Ohio. Oh, and those fags at ESPN talk about the Big East all the time.

3) More name recognition - When was the last time a recruit was interviewed and he said "my goal is to play in the A-10".

There. Those are my reasons why the Big East (without ND) would be better for Xavier than the A-10.

Here are your reasons why it would not.

1) We would become Seton Hall.



I don't even know why I waste my time.

xu95

[xu95]

Seton Hall is a good comparison. No football, small catholic school. XU also looked (at least fans did) at hiring Gonzales.

You automatically think XU will have smashing success in joining a 16 team BE with nothing to back uo your ignorant contention.

Why wouldn't Georgetown be a good comparison. Why wouldn't Villanova? Neither team has Division I football.

You automatically assume that Xavier would suck if they moved. You need to have more faith in your school and team.

xu95

[_LH]

I understood the debate. The debate was (and still is) that the Big East would be better for Xavier than the A-10. I added my two cents. 1) More money, 2) better exposure, 3) more name recognition with recruits.

I will break down each one individually for you since your brain doesn't seem to comprehend.

1) More Money - The big east has a much better TV contract then the A-10 and the league gets more "credits" from the NCAA for the tournament. Each of the 16 schools in the Big East received more payout than any of the 14 schools in the A-10. That would not change when you add a school that goes the the tournament on a yearly basis.

2) Better Exposure - See #1 above. EVERY Big East basketball game is on the ESPN network family. EVERY game. Now I realize we almost have all of our games aired as well, but I guarantee you more people have ESPN or ESPN2 on their cable network than Fox Sports Ohio. Oh, and those fags at ESPN talk about the Big East all the time.

3) More name recognition - When was the last time a recruit was interviewed and he said "my goal is to play in the A-10".

There. Those are my reasons why the Big East (without ND) would be better for Xavier than the A-10.

Here are your reasons why it would not.

1) We would become Seton Hall.



I don't even know why I waste my time.

xu95

Nope, you don't understand the debate. I said that it would be no slam dunk that a 16 team football driven BE would be better than the current A10 and that the advantages (if any) may not out weigh the negatives.

[_LH]

Why wouldn't Georgetown be a good comparison. Why wouldn't Villanova? Neither team has Division I football.

You automatically assume that Xavier would suck if they moved. You need to have more faith in your school and team.

xu95

They could be Georgetown but they also could be Seton Hall or St. John's. That's the whole point. XU is never going to be "Fordham" in the A10 and can continue to get top 4 NCAA seeds out of the A10. There is no guarantee this will happen yearly in the BE. Understand?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Why wouldn't Georgetown be a good comparison. Why wouldn't Villanova? Neither team has Division I football.

You automatically assume that Xavier would suck if they moved. You need to have more faith in your school and team.

xu95

Yeah he is completely ignoring the successes of the non division I football schools in the Big East and automatically comparing us to Seton Hall.

LH here is why Seton Hall would continue to suck and we would not. We have a history over the past decade of great success in the regular and post seasons. Recruits see this and know they will be successful at XU. In moving to the Big East we would continue to get good recruits in addition to getting some guys we have missed out on in the past because we did not play in a major conference. Not even one bit would I fear becoming Seton Hall. Not one bit.

[_LH]

Yeah he is completely ignoring the successes of the non division I football schools in the Big East and automatically comparing us to Seton Hall.

LH here is why Seton Hall would continue to suck and we would not. We have a history over the past decade of great success in the regular and post seasons. Recruits see this and know they will be successful at XU. In moving to the Big East we would continue to get good recruits in addition to getting some guys we have missed out on in the past because we did not play in a major conference. Not even one bit would I fear becoming Seton Hall. Not one bit.

I don't know why I even reply to you because your knowledge on the subject is simply lacking. Both St. John's and Seton Hall along with Providence to some extent use to field pretty decent teams before the BE grew into a 16 team football driven monster. The shear size alone makes it difficult for many to compete or get out of the bottom third of the league.

XU has as you noted has acheived great success over the last 20 years, most of it in the A10 and can continue to get top 4 seeds out of the A10 each and every year as they are the top dog. They would have to work much harder to do this in the BE.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I don't know why I even reply to you because your knowledge on the subject is simply lacking. Both St. John's and Seton Hall along with Providence to some extent use to field pretty decent teams before the BE grew into a 16 team football driven monster. The shear size alone makes it difficult for many to compete or get out of the bottom third of the league.

XU has as you noted has acheived great success over the last 20 years, most of it in the A10 and can continue to get top 4 seeds out of the A10 each and every year as they are the top dog. They would have to work much harder to do this in the BE.

Seton Hall in the 10 years prior to Big East expansion had 4 NCAA appearances.
Providence in the 10 years prior to the Big East expansion had 3 NCAA appearances.
St Johns in the 10 years prior to the Big East expansion had 4 NCAA appearances.

While each school had more success than they are having now, none were making appearances in the NCAA tournament on a regular basis like Xavier is doing now.

On the other hand Marquette is making the tournament on a more regular basis (every year) since they joined the Big East. Georgetown is also making the tournament more often since Big East expansion when compared to the 10 years prior. Villanova has also made the tournament every year since expansion and only made it 4 times in the 10 years preceding.

Yeah but you have all the knowledge.

[_LH]

Marquette saw more success in CUSA (Final 4) than they have in the BE. How many NCAA's have those other three been in since it went to 16 teams?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Marquette saw more success in CUSA (Final 4) than they have in the BE. How many NCAA's have those other three been in since it went to 16 teams?

No, Marquette did not see more success in the CUSA. They had one great year with a great team and got ot a final 4. That is not because they were in CUSA. And it isnt because they are in the Big East that they have not returned. They are making it to the tournament every year out of the Big East, something they were not even close to doing in the CUSA.

St. Johns, Providence, and Seton Hall were not regulars to the NCAA tournament before they expansion and they arent regulars now.

Meanwhile good basketball programs thrived in the new Big East, including Georgetown, Marquette, and Villanova. Xavier is much more comparable to these teams than the others, yet you dont think so.

Give XU more credit LH.

[_LH]

Marquette has done nothing special since joining the BE. UC would have dance two of the last 4 years if they were still in CUSA. What benefit is UC getting? Are they getting better players due to the BE? No.

Georgetown has been up and down in the BE as well. There is no guarantee XU will thrive in the BE like they consistently do in the A10. It is not a hard concept to understand. XU can acheive everything they want out of the A10 and anything they can acheive in the BE.

Basically, as I have continue to say, there is not as much upside to joining a bloated 16 team football driven BE for XU to leave a conference in which they know they can consistently succeed at a high level.

[muskienick]

Marquette has done nothing special since joining the BE. UC would have dance two of the last 4 years if they were still in CUSA. What benefit is UC getting? Are they getting better players due to the BE? No.

Georgetown has been up and down in the BE as well. There is no guarantee XU will thrive in the BE like they consistently do in the A10. It is not a hard concept to understand. XU can acheive everything they want out of the A10 and anything they can acheive in the BE.

Basically, as I have continue to say, there is not as much upside to joining a bloated 16 team football driven BE for XU to leave a conference in which they know they can consistently succeed at a high level.

UC would not have been to two consecutive BCS bowls without having made the switch to the Big East. Their futility on the basketball court has resulted not because of making the switch to the BE but because Bob Huggins loves carousing and barfing on his luxury car so much that it cost him that program. The Bearcats still haven't found a coach capable of filling Huggins' vomit-stained sneakers.

[D-West & PO-Z]

UC would not have been to two consecutive BCS bowls without having made the switch to the Big East. Their futility on the basketball court has resulted not because of making the switch to the BE but because Bob Huggins loves carousing and barfing on his luxury car so much that it cost him that program. The Bearcats still haven't found a coach capable of filling Huggins' vomit-stained sneakers.


Bingo.

[_LH]

Football has nothing to do with this conversation and while Huggins and that mess is the number 1 reason for UC's state it is ignorant to think that they would not have gotten "back" to where they want to be if they were still in CUSA.

[xudash]

Football has nothing to do with this conversation and while Huggins and that mess is the number 1 reason for UC's state it is ignorant to think that they would not have gotten "back" to where they want to be if they were still in CUSA.

In a thread titled "Big East or A10" and given that change in collegiate athletics is being driven first and foremost by big-time football, perhaps it is ignorant to think that football has nothing to do with this conversation.

Football has everything to do with this conversation.

[_LH]

Football has nothing to do with what we were talking about with regards to UC getting "back" faster in CUSA over the BE.

Of course football is the main driver in all of the expansion stuff. Read the whole thread.

[muskienick]

Football has nothing to do with what we were talking about with regards to UC getting "back" faster in CUSA over the BE.

Of course football is the main driver in all of the expansion stuff. Read the whole thread.

I think that in the opinion of most people who are not ignorant, UC would have been a two-time loser had it not moved from CUSA to the Big East. Certainly there can be no doubt that the level of success experienced by the FB program would have been impossible had UC remained in CUSA. And, given Mick's inability to develop players such as Gates, Wright, and Stephenson (none of whom would probably have even given UC a sniff if the Big East were not on the horizon), why would any sensible person believe that the Bearcats (under Mick Cronin) would have made any noise at all with its basketball program in a Conference dominated by Memphis?

I admit that I was wrong early on in saying that Mick was the right guy to get UC back into national contention. I failed to realize how strange he was in so many ways. While most Muskie fans (and certainly the coaches) would kill for the chance to compete in a Conference like the Big East, Mick uses UC's membership in that League as an excuse for its many losses and as an opportunity to denigrate Xavier's affiliation with the A-10. His failure to use his top players at the ends of games when the Bearcats are just a couple of scores or stops from a victory, is mind-boggling to many who have watched basketball for decades. And the huge number of mental mistakes committed by his players, especially down the stretch in tight games, speaks volumes about his coaching inability.

Bad coaching loses at every level!

[_LH]

Put yourself in that ignorant category there Nick. Of course moving the BE was a huge benefit for UC's football program and I have not seen one person state otherwise.

[muskienick]

Put yourself in that ignorant category there Nick. Of course moving the BE was a huge benefit for UC's football program and I have not seen one person state otherwise.

One cannot help but notice that you have conveniently failed to address the other half of the argument (basketball) in the quote, above. One can also not help to notice that you are quick to accuse others of being ignorant while, at the same time, failing to be introspective and objective about your own failures in logic, fairness, and sensibility.

[_LH]

One cannot help but notice that you have conveniently failed to address the other half of the argument (basketball) in the quote, above. One can also not help to notice that you are quick to accuse others of being ignorant while, at the same time, failing to be introspective and objective about your own failures in logic, fairness, and sensibility.

Well you are ignorant if you can't follow this thread and ask questions that are already answered or could be by reading the thread. You have also attempted to change the purpose of the discussion or completely missed the point. Football and specifically UC football has nothing to do with the scenario I asked about initially. There is no doubt UC would have at least made the NCAA's once or twice since Huggins left UC if UC were still in CUSA.

[D-West & PO-Z]

There is no doubt UC would have at least made the NCAA's once or twice since Huggins left UC if UC were still in CUSA.

Yes there is.

[_LH]

No...there isn't.

[xu95]

Yes there is.


No there isn't.

I know you are, but what am I

xu95

[_LH]

I know exactly what you are 95 but the mods here won't let me write it.

[XU 87]

I think Bob Huggins took steroids.

[_LH]

He certainly took shots.

[muskienick]

He certainly took shots.

With that statement, I have found one area of commonality I can share with LH. (I feel a little dirty!)

[xu95]

I know exactly you are 95 but the mods here won't let me write it.

I don't understand your 12 year old English above. Are you trying to say you are going to give out my real name? Or are you trying to say that you are going to call me a name that the mods won't let you post?

If it is the first one, I don't care. Half the people on here know me anyhow. If you are talking about the second, I say go ahead and do it. Just don't be surprised when you mom washes your mouth out with soap.

xu95

[_LH]

Its clear. Learn to read.

[xnatic03]

I guess I need to learn to read too.....that is far from clear. I've read it 5-6 times to make sure I'm not just slow on the uptake, but it still makes no sense.

[_LH]

Read the whole back and forth and it is clear.

[X-band '01]

I know exactly what you are 95 but the mods here won't let me write it.

That's ironic considering the mods probably have a pool going as to what you would call him.

[_LH]

That's ironic considering the mods probably have a pool going as to what you would call him.

There are so many derogatory and appropriate names to choose from it would be hard to decide.

[xu95]

There are so many derogatory and appropriate names to choose from it would be hard to decide.

Come on. Please do it. I can't wait to see what you learned last week at the daycare.

xu95

[_LH]

Do you work at a daycare or something?

[Muskie]

Come on. Please do it. I can't wait to see what you learned last week at the daycare.

xu95


Do you work at a daycare or something?

Coincidently, I feel like a run a daycare sometimes....