21st* Perfect Game in Baseball History

[BBC 08]

Anybody see the end of that Tigers game? Armando was robbed.

[SixFig]

Oh Crap you mentioned Detroit...now someone will come in with "Detroit Sucks" smack and this thread will deteriorate into Snipe vs Others in a battle of socio-economic banter.

[xsteve1]

Terrible, terrible call. Galarraga was robbed and Jim Joyce's life will never be the same.

[jhelmes37]

I grew up in the 'Nati and have lived in the suburbs of Detroit for 11 years.

That was by far the worst call I've ever seen. I seriously can't believe he made that call. I watched it live and it was awful by every stretch of the imagination. Even if the runner was tied, any ump in the majors would call him out because of the situation. Cabrera and Gerald Laird had to be restrained from going after Joyce.

I hope MLB has some sense and decides to step in and call it a perfect game. It was the last out of the game, so they can easily do just that.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

That might have been the worst F*%&$*& call I've ever seen...

Kudos to Galaraga for keeping his cool. I would have gone Apes&** on that ump.

Leyland and the rest of the Tigers gave him a verbal beating

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

http://web11.twitpic.com/img/109864396-01886c5f087eaf71ecfbe0c99962de0c.4c070ca0-scaled.jpg

Jim Joyce: "SAFE"

He just admitted he "blew the damn call and cost the kid a perfect game"

What do you do if your Selig? What can you do?

[rhyno2110]

I was at Chili's, and they had the game on. Once that call was made, I heard the loudest roar in my life. We all saw that he was out, I'm not to sure what Jimmy Joyce was seeing.

[XULucho27]

Disgraceful.

[DC Muskie]

That was a great call!

Go Tribe!


I'm totally kidding by the way.

[SixFig]

That sound you are hearing is the inevitable call for instant replay.

And I am in favor. One "challenge flag" per team in the initial 9 innings, then one extra for the duration of extra innings.

This was the biggest blown call maybe since the 1985 World Series.

[DC Muskie]

That sound you are hearing is the inevitable call for instant replay.

And I am in favor. One "challenge flag" per team in the initial 9 innings, then one extra for the duration of extra innings.

This was the biggest blown call maybe since the 1985 World Series.

Let's not go crazy here. It's a game between the Indians and the Tigers in June. The guy didn't get a perfect game. That sucks. It didn't cost them the World Series.

Let's get a grip here people.

We don't need instant replay. I hate when a bad call is made everyone starts up the bandwagon for "Let's put in instant replay!" The game is played by people, officiated by people and people make mistakes.

[GuyFawkes38]

I just saw the replay several times on ESPN.

It's a close call. The picture posted on this thread is misleading.

[PM Thor]

I just saw the replay several times on ESPN.

It's a close call. The picture posted on this thread is misleading.

No, sorry Guy, you are completely wrong. It wasn't even close. That was the biggest blown call in my memory. Nothing even comes close.

That picture posted is dead on. That's how far he was away from the base. The runner even knew it, look at his reaction after he turns around, he was in disbelief too.

Worst blown call in decades. I can't think of something comparable.

I HATE dayton.

[kyxu]

What gets me is that before this season, there have been three perfect games in the last 10 years. Had Joyce not missed that call, we would've had three perfect games this season...before the All-Star Break.

[SixFig]

One thing is for sure pitching is back and I love it!

We're not going back to the dead ball era for sure but the days of every game being a 7-6 four hour affair are drifting away.

Better pitching = faster games = more reliance on small ball = home runs actually have significance = speed and defense matter = triples and stolen bases are back

[kyxu]

One thing is for sure pitching is back and I love it!

We're not going back to the dead ball era for sure but the days of every game being a 7-6 four hour affair are drifting away.

Better pitching = faster games = more reliance on small ball = home runs actually have significance = speed and defense matter = triples and stolen bases are back

I was more going in the direction that pitchers are juicing.







Just kidding!!!










(or am I?)

[PM Thor]

I prefer to think that the Umps as a whole have gotten worse. Pitchers haven't gotten any better than last year, not like this. It's inconcievable to think so. I think this is MLB reacting to the 'roids era, and having an undercurrent where the umps are told to be lenient in their strike zone. That would lead to a greater number of strike outs, less walks, etc.

I'm shooting in the dark on this one, totally playing the conspiracy theorist, but I would like someone who isn't as buzzed as me to look into the numbers please.

I HATE dayton.

[DoubleD86]

I hope MLB has some sense and decides to step in and call it a perfect game. It was the last out of the game, so they can easily do just that.

In my opinion this is a horrible idea. Yes it was a terribly blown call. However, you can't just go back and change it just because it was a bad call. Otherwise, wouldn't they have to go back and change every other bad call that has been realized, thus changing the result of many games (and the mentioned World Series)? It was an awful call, awful luck, and horrible for the kid.

On the other hand, I am on (and have been long before this) the instant replay bandwagon. I don't buy the "its a game officiated by people and people make mistakes" argument. The game is ALL about the players. The officials are there to control the action of the game and ensure the rules. Allowing "human mistakes" is taking away from the actual play and is easily fixable. I am all for instant replay. However, I am against any type of replay or computerization or whatever of the strike zone. The strike zone should be on the home plate ump. And before someone tries to use my previous argument against me in this instance, you can not compare a calling of strikes/balls to an actual play in the field. There would almost never be incontrovertible evidence for a strike or ball in a replay. The game should continue to be officiated by humans, with the ability to fix a couple of plays. In my opinion, instant replay in football has done wonders. Few plays per game are reviewed and they are often an important play. Something like this should be done in baseball as well. It works for football, it works for hockey, it would work in baseball.

[DC Muskie]

I can't begin to disagree with Double more.

Does anyone here really believe there is a perfect system to get every call correct? And if you do, should I go ahead and list all the times where people STILL disagreed with the call that was made AFTER officials spent an enormous amount of time looking at a TV?

There are certain plays in every sports that you can't review and that right then and there should tell you the system sucks. In the NFL the ref has to see "incontrovertible visual evidence" to overturn a call. There are STILL numerous times when those calls are still questioned. Hell you can't even challenge a call in the last 2 minutes of a half. What the hell is that about? Isn't that the entire point? To make sure you get the call correct? It's a freakin joke.

You can't challenge a call once the offense snaps the ball, you can't challenge in overtime, or being forced out of bounds, and some others. So like Double said, he likes baseball to have replay, but you can't do it to call balls and strikes. I'm sure the Braves didn't have any problems with the strike zone Eric Gregg had in the NLCS in 1997.

No one is ever going to get every call right every time. It's impossible. And the instant relay used in sports is cherry picked for only certain situations and only for a certain number of times. I laugh at the fact that in the NFL you only have 2 challenges. I mean what happens if you lose those two challenges, and then another bad call happens? Oh well, instant replay has done wonders!

These games have been played for decades and decades. Installing instant replay has done NOTHING to absolutely resolve the fact that humans error. So I never understand why the flow of games must be stopped because people need to try and fix something.

I'll finish with this, I actually think the creation of instant replay has made officiating worse. Especially in college football. These guys on the field just wait for someone in the booth to save their ass. Look at this past season in the SEC. These guys still didn't get that call right on the LSU interception. All instant replay has done has interfere with the game and take up time.

[jhelmes37]

In my opinion this is a horrible idea. Yes it was a terribly blown call. However, you can't just go back and change it just because it was a bad call. Otherwise, wouldn't they have to go back and change every other bad call that has been realized, thus changing the result of many games (and the mentioned World Series)? It was an awful call, awful luck, and horrible for the kid.

On the other hand, I am on (and have been long before this) the instant replay bandwagon. I don't buy the "its a game officiated by people and people make mistakes" argument. The game is ALL about the players. The officials are there to control the action of the game and ensure the rules. Allowing "human mistakes" is taking away from the actual play and is easily fixable. I am all for instant replay. However, I am against any type of replay or computerization or whatever of the strike zone. The strike zone should be on the home plate ump. And before someone tries to use my previous argument against me in this instance, you can not compare a calling of strikes/balls to an actual play in the field. There would almost never be incontrovertible evidence for a strike or ball in a replay. The game should continue to be officiated by humans, with the ability to fix a couple of plays. In my opinion, instant replay in football has done wonders. Few plays per game are reviewed and they are often an important play. Something like this should be done in baseball as well. It works for football, it works for hockey, it would work in baseball.


I'm certainly not saying that if an umpire misses a call, MLB should just start reversing calls left and right. Especially since every missed call undoubtedly has an effect on every other play after the missed call. This holds true in baseball even more so than in other sports.

If the play in question had happened as the second out in the 9th, I never would raise the point. You can never say, "Since 'x' happened in the 4th inning, we lost that game" because the future events of the game would have then been altered. (assuming Marty and Doc are correct about the space/time continuum..........)

However, I don't think this is the case in this situation. The play in question was the very last out of the game. The game would have ended and Galarraga would have his perfect game. Everybody knows Joyce blew it, even Joyce himself. The rookie kid, Donald, who "beat" the throw would gladly give up his hit to give a pitcher a perfect game and let an incompetent umpire off the hook.

It's simple: Reverse the call, give Galarraga his Hall of Fame nameplate for throwing the PG, and all are happy.

Side note: Didn't MLB reverse the infamous pine-tar call on George Brett? Was that the wrong call, too?

[X-band '01]

One thing is for sure pitching is back and I love it!

We're not going back to the dead ball era for sure but the days of every game being a 7-6 four hour affair are drifting away.

Better pitching = faster games = more reliance on small ball = home runs actually have significance = speed and defense matter = triples and stolen bases are back

That part will be back if they can resurrect the AstroTurf from the 70s/80s.

[Smails]

Yes it sucks to be the pitcher and probably suicks worse to be Jim Joyce. To his credit Joyce manned up and admitted to "kicking the shit out of the call" and expressed his regret for ruining the kid's perfect game.

Human error is part of the game and rarely does an umpire's mistake take on the gravity that this one has. There is no precedent for changing a call on the field, post-game after it has been made and I don't think baseball will go down that slope. The Geroge Brett pine tar incident was more of changing the interpretation of the rule than saying 'the ump blew it and we are reversing the call.' In Brett's case they actually replayed the final inning I believe. I don't think the two situations are interchangable.

I really don't want sweeping instant replay in baseball

[jhelmes37]

I know they're not the same. I'm just saying that in the past when a call was deemed incorrect, MLB stepped in and did what was right. In actuality, with Brett, MLB went against the correctly applied rule and made them play the inning over.

There hasn't been a strike/ball/out/safe reversal in the history of the game. However, in this case, the circumstance is so insanely unusual, considering it's the last out and it doesn't change the game whatsoever, it relieves Joyce of his awful call, it gives a 20-something pitcher a mention in the HoF, etc. Nothing bad at all will come out of changing the call except for one thing: Jason Donald, a rookie 9-hole hitter for a god-awful team, will have one less hit this year.

I think it's a no-brainer. Joe Girardi agress, too, although I'm not sure if that gives my argument more credibility. (I guess it can't hurt, though!)

[DC Muskie]

If baseball goes back and gives this kid a perfect game, it would be a worse decision then the past two brilliant ideas when it comes to the All Star Game. Oh make that three now that they want to have a DH every year.

[ChicagoX]

If baseball goes back and gives this kid a perfect game, it would be a worse decision then the past two brilliant ideas when it comes to the All Star Game. Oh make that three now that they want to have a DH every year.

I don't know...I just don't see how reversing this call makes such a major difference compared the All-Star Game (which I agree is dumb). The kid deserves it, and it's not like it's reversing who wins the game or who has home field advantage in the World Series. Give the kid his due...it hurts no one.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

If baseball goes back and gives this kid a perfect game, it would be a worse decision then the past two brilliant ideas when it comes to the All Star Game. Oh make that three now that they want to have a DH every year.

I agree with you that on 99% of the time, MLB should not change the outcome (and I definitely agree on the DH/All star game)

In this case, certain things stick out to me:

1) It was the last out in a game in which a change would have no bearing on the outcome. The incident occurred in the absolute best case scenario(of a worst case judgement ump call) for Galarraga. It didn't happen in the 6th inning or the 3rd.

2) The ump does not want to live with this the rest of his life. He is taking an absolute beating in press and general public. The man is already getting death threats and people harassing his family. His name and face are plastered all over the internet and newspapers. On the same day where a future hall of famer announced his retirement, Joyce is the lead story. The fact that he immediately stepped up, admitted his wrong doing, and apologized to Galarraga shows that he feels absolutely terrible. Absolute class by the ump. What message does this send to other umps if Selig lets one of their own take an absolute beating in the press and population for the rest of their life based on a split second human error that, to me, is easily correctable? I realize other umps have been severely criticized and its part of the game(again 99% of the time I do not want this overturned), but unlike the majority of missed calls, this scenario is easily correctable.

3) Galarraga absolutely deserves it. With all the camera angles and technology today, why does baseball pride itself in the "human element for non subjective calls?" (Taken from ESPN's Jayson Stark. He makes an argument for it here http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=5245064)

Something tells me had this been the Yankees or Red Sox, the call would have been overturned. (Obvious speculation on my part - just had to throw that out there)

I know there are many arguments against it. That it will "lead to a slippery slope" or that it will "open all sorts of doors". But I honestly think this is that rare 1% that requires intervention. Let Joyce off the hook so he doesn't have to deal with this the rest of his life.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

"Umpire wipes away tears before game"
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100603/SPT0401/306030041/Umpire-wipes-away-tears-before-game

http://cmsimg.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=AB&Date=20100603&Category=SPT0401&ArtNo=306030041&Ref=AR&MaxW=180&Border=0

Video:
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=8633629

[drudy23]

People make mistakes. At least Joyce manned up, admitted his mistake, seeked out the pitcher, and apologized. What else can he do?

If I'm the pitcher, I think I learn to live with it. Would it be gratifying if they reversed it? I don't know. Part of me thinks that the perfect game is tarnished if I had to get it through a reversed call. It wouldn't feel "right" to me....wouldn't mean as much.

I think some aspect of video is needed...but not for every close play. Defining when it's needed could be difficult in baseball.

[smileyy]

I'm all about automated calling of balls and strikes and fair and foul. That said, that wouldn't have changed anything here.

Galarraga's grace in handling the situation so far is remarkable. It's possible he knows he threw a perfect game in his head, and everyone else knows it too. Does "official" recognition matter at this point? It doesn't make his athletic performance any more or less spectacular.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Selig just said he will not reverse the call. I can definitely see his point of view. Just a shame all around. Not just for Galarraga but also for the ump that has to live with this the rest of his life...Selig has a way of making nobody happy

Interesting note that has nothing to do with this(from Wikipedia):

On June 23, 1917, Babe Ruth, then a pitcher with the Boston Red Sox, walked the Washington Senators' first batter, Ray Morgan, on four straight pitches. Ruth, who had already been shouting at umpire Brick Owens about the quality of his calls, became even angrier and, in short order, was ejected. Enraged, Ruth charged Owens, swung at him, and had to be led off the field by a policeman. Ernie Shore came in to replace Ruth. Morgan was caught stealing by Sox catcher Pinch Thomas on the first pitch by Shore, who proceeded to retire the next 26 batters. All 27 outs were made while Shore was on the mound. Once recognized as a perfect game by Major League Baseball, this still counts as a combined no-hitter.

[DC Muskie]

What if it was the second to last out? Or the first batter of the ninth inning?

What if this play happened in the 7th inning?

Why is okay to say that since it was the last play, it should be no big deal to reverse the call?

That to me sets a very dangerous precedent. This isn't like the NBA where they rescind a tech, because one more and you'd be suspended. This is a play in the game and no rules were broken. Just was just a bad call.

The argument of limited replay is so incredibly weak I'm not sure how to respond. Why is that an out at first base has more importance then balls and strikes? Why is we can look at this play, but not that play? Why when it comes to instant replay, do we crave out certain situations where we need replay, when at the end of the day there will still be as much controversy as before?

I love how Stark says umps are for it. That just leads to what I said before, instant replay breeds worse officiating. Is it just me and my friends that moan every time there is a challenge on the field over a play that really doesn't look like there is much room to talk? I may harp on college football, but the DII game a few years ago in the playoffs between Montana and JMU was pathetic. It was a goal line play and there was really no way to tell either way if the guy has crossed the goal line. So what exactly did replay in that instance prove? It's difficult to make a decision on difficult plays? Well no kidding. Instant replay is good at reversing bad calls? Awesome! Why don't we strive to not make bad calls? How about umps not throwing out players the minute they open their mouths? How about we work towards excellence instead of cherry picking which aspect of the game is more important and easier to facilitate when it comes to replay?

Stark argument about just one challenge really pisses me off about this. Why one? When one challenge goes, we are right back to where we were before. So what did that solve? That we can correct the easy calls, and the game still moves forward?

Instant replay never, ever accomplishes what it sets out to do. We need better officiating, not more videos.