UVA Lax Player

[PMI]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5161385

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet unless I missed it. I don't know this kid very well, only met him and his family here and there, but have friends who do so it hits close to home. Unbelievable what some seemingly normal people are capable of. I think this story has elements of several hot issues, but one that I have thought about from my point of view is the game of lacrosse.

In our area, it is the biggest spring sport ahead of baseball. A very high number of D1 players come from our private schools and a heavy number of the highly ranked high school and college programs are in our region, so for those of you who don't know, there are certain perceptions that people have about lacrosse and those who play it. To an extent these perceptions are fair, but can be exaggerated or misconstrued like anything else. Lacrosse is seen as the rich white boy elitist sport. The biggest example of this stereotype can be seen directly by looking at Landon High School, the traditional powerhouse nationally for high school lacrosse. Most of the kids who play there get D1 scholarships to a very good school (UVA, Duke, Ivy's, etc.) to go to school and play for free before going to grad school or simply taking over their father's company. I don't want to feed the stereotype, but it's scary how accurate this is for that program.

One (actually may have been 2 I can't remember) of the kids in the Duke incident was a Landon player, as was this guy George Hugeuly, who may end up facing the death penalty if you know anything about the state of Virginia. On top of that, Landon had a huge SAT cheating scandal with several players my senior or junior year, and, to put it quite frankly, these guys have an all-around terrible reputation as people with a long list of incidents to support it. It makes me wonder about the kind of program and school they run. I've had a couple of friends from the school to be fair, but the vast majority of those guys come across as very arrogant and classless to pretty much everyone else.

But the bigger question is not so much Landon kids, but the sport that I believe is now going to be stained by the stereotype they best fit. Lacrosse is a great game and some of my best friends played in high school, college, and even the pros. They are good people and good members of society, but unfortunately I really can't defend them all because there are quite a few "Landon kids" (I know that's not necessarily fair to the whole school so forgive the crude term) throughout the sport. It makes me wonder if lacrosse, a game that has really made strides in competition level and popularity outside the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast regions lately, will suffer in the long run.

Like I said, there are many other (and more important) issues you could bring up concerning this tragedy, and feel free to do so, but for me personally, it's eye-opening to see how what the attitude of the sub-culture of the rich white kids I grew up with can really lead to. I would've written them up as assholes or tools in high school, knowing that it's normal to be around those kinds of people where I live, but now I realize that the attitude that many of them had is much more dangerous than I realized. It's not just arrogance or alpha male stuff, it's a dangerously high level of that that many of them learn from a pretty young age and stick with. Luckily, my school and most others with big lax programs had their guys grow out of the aforementioned attitude as they got older, but for some reason Landon has had a major list of issues, and if you knew them, sadly this tragedy would not be as surprising as it should be.

[LadyMuskie]

I also heard on the news that several of the Duke lacrosse players were schoolmates of this guy. I think your last paragraph sums it up best - they think they're above everyone and everything, so they can do whatever they want. They were raised in their own little world which revolved completely around them. I'd be willing to wager that he is the type of person who has gotten in to all sorts of trouble his entire life, but mommy and daddy were always there to cover it up for him and he never learned that there are consequences to his actions and what it means to be a decent human being. I'd also be willing to wager that Landon is the type of school where it will cover up any indiscretions in order to protect its beloved sports teams - putting sports above all else. Its disgusting and there is absolutely no excuse for it. Parents and schools like these breed societal pariahs who can't function in a world where they have to obey by certain rules and where some people may not be all consumed by their so-called charms.

I knew quite a few of these types of people growing up and I learned to stay as far away as possible from them because they never got in trouble, but they managed to take down others in their wake.

My heart and prayers go out to the girl he murdered and her family. What a complete and utter waste. Once this guy is convicted and sent to prison, he's going to learn soon enough that he's not as big and bad as he thinks he is. Revenge may belong to the Lord, but knowing how things are going to play out for this guy in prison is pretty sweet!!

[DC Muskie]

I was fortunate enough to know about lacrosse at an early age living in Ohio when my oldest brother played it in high school and college. I also learned at an early age that lacrosse players are overall slightly smarter then the average hockey player.

When I went to go work at Loyola a few years back, within the first month or so of my short tenure there, a lacrosse player was thrown out of school for pretty much almost killing another student.

Landon to me is a school like you see on a bad CW show. Like Cruel Intentions or something. There are about 5 million private schools out here and Landon always seems to produce morons. I don't know a Landon grad. I guess I consider myself lucky.

I don't know what the connection is of white privileged kids and lacrosse. I'm not sure how these kids get to the point where murder is an option.

But most importantly I pray that Love's family. She didn't deserve that.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Yeah, I was talking to a friend who played a sport at UVA and she was saying that the lacrosse team had a lot of coke heads on it. I made a similar comment that a lot of you are saying when I said "I guess thats what you get sometimes with a sport full of privileged rich white kids."

[SixFig]

I would go to the worst public HS in Cincinnati before I would go to one of these Douchebag factories.

I am serious.

[PMI]

I don't want to sound like I'm completely "turning against my own kind" for lack of a better term. I've gone to private schools my whole life and have been privileged. I'm sure there were plenty of public school kids who thought we were dbags for that reason alone. But the stereotype public school kids had for private school kids is the stereotype all other private school kids had for Landon. That school took the "boys will be boys" mentality to an abnormally far extreme, and as a result, it produced a lot of boys who believed they'd never actually have to deal with real consequences for anything they did. They seemed to always be able to get out of serious trouble, then they go to one of the few colleges where they can play lacrosse and (in their minds) be heroes for it, then they go work for their family company, etc. They develop a sense of entitlement and invincibility in my opinion.

Again, it is NOT all lax players. Some of my friends are still contending for a national championship and are great kids. None of those kids are Landon kids for what it's worth, but I'm sure they have their good and bad seeds like everyone else. But there are a lot of people around here starting to buzz about the way things are run there and changes that need to be made at a school where a large group of the students start to believe they're the shit by the time they get their first pube, and by the time they're 22, they're well beyond repair.

[xubrew]

i don't really see what this has to do with lacrosse. this guy is obviously a complete asshole, but i think he'd be a complete asshole whether he played lacrosse or not.

about five years ago we had those heinous murders at baylor that the two basketball players were involved in. had those guys been lacrosse players or heavy metal fans everyone would be pointing to the fact that they were either lacrosse players or heavy metal fans as if there was some legitimate connection. you could compile an extremely long list of violent crimes and/or sexual assaults that involved football, basketball and baseball players and no one would ever make a connection between the sport that they play and the crime they committed. however, the second a lacrosse player does something, there is this big "A' HA" moment. truth be told, of all the major crimes that the sports world has been tied into, i can only think of two off the top of my head that involved lacrosse players. the duke incident, in which none of them were guilty of a damn thing, and this one.

and just so we're clear, i don't care for lacrosse at all. i don't know the first thing about it. i'm not defending it because of any fondness i have for it. i'm defending it because i think it's nonsense to even bring up that he played lacrosse as if that was some how relevant to the crime he has committed.

[DC Muskie]

i don't really see what this has to do with lacrosse. this guy is obviously a complete asshole, but i think he'd be a complete asshole whether he played lacrosse or not.

While that could be true, a cultural that surrounded this guy obviously led him down a path that turned into a murderer. And lacrosse played a role in that.

The Washington Post ran an article today I think about the number of arrests the UVA team had and Landon school. The numbers were pretty amazing. Practically all of the kids getting arrested at Landon were lacrosse players.

I think they point is here...this guy played a sport that is mostly a rich white east coast sport. He petty much got away with whatever he wanted to in high school, most likely on the grounds that he was a lacrosse player, the most important sport at said school. He then goes to UVA, a great school and dates an attractive girl. The cultural continues to promote the idea that lax players booze it up, and then kick the crap out of anyone or anything you like.

I mean I can see both sides. I'm just not sure this kid even gets down this path without lacrosse. I don't see too many Spanish Club presidents killing their ex girlfriends.

[xubrew]

I mean I can see both sides. I'm just not sure this kid even gets down this path without lacrosse. I don't see too many Spanish Club presidents killing their ex girlfriends.

does lawrence taylor end up where he is without football?? i don't think it's so much lacrosse as much as, if anything, being undeservedly priveldged. there isn't a big uproar about how football is on the fringe. i'm not saying that there should be. i'm just saying that pointing to lacrosse in the case of the jackass from virginia is no more logical than pointing to football in the case of lawrence taylor or countless other nfl players who have been arrested.

i don't think lacrosse players are any more (or less) prone to lawless violent acts than anyone else. it's just that when it happens with lawrence taylor, the fact that he played football is nothing more than mere mention. had a lacrosse player done the exact same thing, people would have made more of an association. that's what i don't understand. if lacrosse were to suddenly disappear from the earth, i don't think the violent crime rate would go down 1/100th of a percent.

[picknroll]

Yeah, I was talking to a friend who played a sport at UVA and she was saying that the lacrosse team had a lot of coke heads on it. I made a similar comment that a lot of you are saying when I said "I guess thats what you get sometimes with a sport full of privileged rich white kids."

It's likely that when he was a kid with his Mom in the grocery store he threw himself on the floor and screamed and cried when she said he couldn't have a Snicker's bar because it would spoil his supper. Then when he got home, he drop-kicked kicked the dog into the next yard. That's where sh!t likes this starts...

[stjamesxu08]

I was fortunate enough to know about lacrosse at an early age living in Ohio when my oldest brother played it in high school and college. I also learned at an early age that lacrosse players are overall slightly smarter then the average hockey player.

When I went to go work at Loyola a few years back, within the first month or so of my short tenure there, a lacrosse player was thrown out of school for pretty much almost killing another student.

Landon to me is a school like you see on a bad CW show. Like Cruel Intentions or something. There are about 5 million private schools out here and Landon always seems to produce morons. I don't know a Landon grad. I guess I consider myself lucky.

I don't know what the connection is of white privileged kids and lacrosse. I'm not sure how these kids get to the point where murder is an option.

But most importantly I pray that Love's family. She didn't deserve that.

which Loyola, the high school in Towson, or the University in Baltimore...can you please enlighten me with more details on this story because I am a Loyola High School Alum

[PMI]

i don't really see what this has to do with lacrosse. this guy is obviously a complete asshole, but i think he'd be a complete asshole whether he played lacrosse or not.

about five years ago we had those heinous murders at baylor that the two basketball players were involved in. had those guys been lacrosse players or heavy metal fans everyone would be pointing to the fact that they were either lacrosse players or heavy metal fans as if there was some legitimate connection. you could compile an extremely long list of violent crimes and/or sexual assaults that involved football, basketball and baseball players and no one would ever make a connection between the sport that they play and the crime they committed. however, the second a lacrosse player does something, there is this big "A' HA" moment. truth be told, of all the major crimes that the sports world has been tied into, i can only think of two off the top of my head that involved lacrosse players. the duke incident, in which none of them were guilty of a damn thing, and this one.

and just so we're clear, i don't care for lacrosse at all. i don't know the first thing about it. i'm not defending it because of any fondness i have for it. i'm defending it because i think it's nonsense to even bring up that he played lacrosse as if that was some how relevant to the crime he has committed.

brew, if you think that I'm saying that playing lacrosse led Hugeuly to this point than you are either greatly misinterpreting the post or I did a poor job of expressing myself. In fact, I tried to make more than one point to say that most of the people I know who played the game are good people and lax was a positive, not negative part of their lives. The issue I think DOES have something to do with how the kid turned out has more to do with a specific school and type of program. He was part of a group of people, most of whom share a similar bad attitude. I've seen it with my own eyes. These kids develop this attitude in their pre-teens and it grows, and as they get better (the kid was starting QB and one of the best lax players on the Duke of high school lacrosse) that attitude gets worse. I know because my friends and I were little shit-heads too at one point, but we went to a school that breeds a different kind of mind-set when you reach the end. I don't know about every area, but in the DC area it's kind of predictable how a kid is going to turn out (to an extent obviously) based on which private school he's sent to. Gonzaga kids are a certain way, Georgetown Prep kids, DeMatha, Landon, etc. Landon happens to be the one with the most severe issues and lacrosse players happen to be at the center of almost all of them. There is a LOT of peer pressure (the kind I admittedly may not have been able to turn my cheek on) to be a certain way (douchebag) when you play Landon lacrosse.

Now I find myself taking the more extreme position I've tried to avoid, but hopefully that helps you understand my original point and I'd encourage you to think a little bit about it. Obviously everyone controls their own lives for the most part and you can't just blame the school or program. That would be completely unfair. But that doesn't mean the school or program can't influence a certain attitude, which can ultimately lead to many other things if you don't change that attitude at some point. Given the structure he's lived in his whole life (Landon to UVA as a star athlete) he's never HAD to change that attitude and apparently he never did. Up until last week the kid probably hadn't ever done anything I've never done (minus D1 sports), but I can tell you FIRST HAND that the main difference between he and I was his shitty, arrogant, bad-CW-TV-show-typical-jock (as DC said) attitude.

[Strange Brew]

Wow, I played Lacrosse at X and have 4 cousins that played DII at various schools and none of us nor those that I personally played with are represented by the sociopaths portrayed in this thread.

DC, I'm disappointed by your Lax stereotyping.

I guess we just love to go after a sport that is considered "white and wealthy". The irony is that it is Lax is one of the few sports that is purely American (Native).

In other news. SLU hoops players, Big Ben and LT all having issues. Face it, people do dumb things regardless of the games, hobbies, beliefs they have. I just find it curious that the media jumps on any Lax story out there. Something in me tells me it has to do the opinons similiar to those who live in the Mid Atlantic who view it as an aristocratic sport while those who have played the game see it as just another sport played by individuals who make individual choices.

[GuyFawkes38]

Golf is probably the other mostly white, wealthy sport. Yet golfers, even in high school and college, tend to have better reputations than Lacrosse players (Golfers have a sort of nerdy, but nice reputation....although Tiger isn't helping).

I don't know any Lacrosse players well. But there's definitely a negative stereotype about Lacrosse players. And most stereotypes tend to have some truth to them.

[wkrq59]

I have come in contact with three lax players in my life. Interviewed all three and came to some interesting impressions, none of which have been mentioned here.
The third player I interviewed for a story on Moeller lax was a student there whose name escapes me. He was one whale of a nice kid and possibly one of the most respectful young men I've ever met.
The first lax player was an athlete said to be the best player that ever participated in that sport. He was also one of the most controversial athletes I've ever interviewed, but most of his notoriety was achieved after he finished an NFL Hall of Fame career that has been unmatched in many respects. Jim Brown was a superstar lax player at Syracuse.
I asked him once why more African Americans weren't playing (remember he went to Syracuse back in the early days ) and he said simply, "Back then, it was a rich white man's sport and I have a hard time understanding why." When I asked him why the sport hadn't caught on nationally or professionally, he said, "For the same reason I just explained to you."
Then he added, "One of the reasons I enjoyed the sport was it allowed those with athletic skills to achieve, and the rough, physical nature of play in the sport gave me a chance to release some frustrations and not be thrown in jail for it."
Yes, I know Jim Brown's life off the field and after he retired was not one to be emulated or imitated. but that SOB is still the most complete football player I have ever watched. You know that he played defense as well as offense at Syracuse back in the days of one-way football? He was one helluva linebacker, too.
The second interesting lax player I got to know quite well both when he was a Cincinnati Sword and later a major and minor league hockey executive , was Rick Dudley. He was mainly a box lacrosse player which I presume back in the 70s was early indoor lax. Or related to it. Dudley, who was told by Joe Crozier when he came to the Swords at 19, "Son, if you're gonna have any hope of playing any kind of professional hockey, you'll have to fight from the first minute you step on the ice, any time, practice or game."
Dudley's love of lacrosse he said stemmed from the physicality of the game. "You know you can legally cross-check a guy and that provides for a release once the tensions of the game build up," he said. Like Brown, he said the sport was primarily for rich white guys, who, he said he loved "Beating the sh!t out of" on a regular basis, which he said, "was more fun than scoring."
If this kid at UVA is found guilty, and I think he will be, his actions are far more a symbol of the different mores of society today, in many respects, than they are a product of an exclusive prep school. What many forget is once upon a time, the prevailing belief was wait until you're married for the sex. Today--and this isn't mine, it's the remark of some philosophy expert--"sex is the same as saying 'hello, glad to meet you.'"
I'm no prude but when guys start driving down a certain road, it's' pretty hard to go back to riding a horse and buggy once you've slid into a Lexus.
Combine that with an attitude of "I'm entitled" and you have all kinds of problems. I'm not blaming the young women, but some Tigers just are Bens.
:D:logo:

[waggy]

...once you've slid into a Lexus.


A'hem, Riviera...

;)

[DC Muskie]

which Loyola, the high school in Towson, or the University in Baltimore...can you please enlighten me with more details on this story because I am a Loyola High School Alum

It was Loyola College. I'm not sure I remember all the details, but basically the kid got drunk, was high on something and literally beat some other kid to an inch of his life. It was about 5 or 6 years ago.


Wow, I played Lacrosse at X and have 4 cousins that played DII at various schools and none of us nor those that I personally played with are represented by the sociopaths portrayed in this thread.

DC, I'm disappointed by your Lax stereotyping.

I guess we just love to go after a sport that is considered "white and wealthy". The irony is that it is Lax is one of the few sports that is purely American (Native).

In other news. SLU hoops players, Big Ben and LT all having issues. Face it, people do dumb things regardless of the games, hobbies, beliefs they have. I just find it curious that the media jumps on any Lax story out there. Something in me tells me it has to do the opinons similiar to those who live in the Mid Atlantic who view it as an aristocratic sport while those who have played the game see it as just another sport played by individuals who make individual choices.

I'm just telling you what I know. Obviously not all Lax players get drunk and kill their girlfriends, but if you if look at the percentages of Lax players, there wouldn't be high IQ on most teams.

And the media is jumping on this because one college kid killed another college kid and it involved sports and sex. Oh and they were white. It's sort of a no brainer if you ask me.

I think all of these examples have one thing in common...these guys were able to get away with some stuff in their past and it just sort of accumulates into the sexual deviant behavior.

The difference here is this kid supposedly had the best environment not to be a complete asshole. I think lacrosse, and if you want to generalize it, sports, were a vehicle for him to say and do whatever he wanted. I mean the kid threatened to kill a cop. He either thinks he's a super ninja or nothing with ever stick to him. He's a Landon grad, and a lax player at that, so I'm thinking he wasn't banking on his Ninja skills.

[xubrew]

pmi, i really didn't disagree with a single specific point that you made. i was basing my response on the overall general attitude people seem to have toward lacrosse, not anything you said specifically.


But the bigger question is not so much Landon kids, but the sport that I believe is now going to be stained by the stereotype they best fit. Lacrosse is a great game and some of my best friends played in high school, college, and even the pros. They are good people and good members of society, but unfortunately I really can't defend them all because there are quite a few "Landon kids" (I know that's not necessarily fair to the whole school so forgive the crude term) throughout the sport. It makes me wonder if lacrosse, a game that has really made strides in competition level and popularity outside the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast regions lately, will suffer in the long run.


i understand (at least kind of) why you feel this way. what i don't understand is why you and so many others are forced to feel compelled to feel this way.

i love college basketball. when the baylor player was murdered, i didn't feel compelled to have to defend college basketball because no one was making a strong association between the crime they committed and the sport that they played. i sure as hell wasn't worried that the game would "suffer in the long run." i don't think nfl fans feel compelled to defend football every time a current or former player is charged with a serious crime (which happens regularly).

what lawrence taylor is accused of doing is pretty serious stuff. a middle aged man had sex with a sixteen year old and negotiated this through a pimp. to me, that's worse (or at least as bad) as what the duke lacrose players were accused of doing, but didn't actually do. lawrence taylor is in the news, but not nearly to the degree that the duke story was. lawrence taylor is a bigger star who played a more popular sport, and has been accused of committing a very serious crime, yet it's not getting half the coverage of what three no-name lacrosse players from duke received. i'm almost compelled to believe that had it been a college lacrosse player being acused of rape instead of lawrence taylor, the story would be twice as big.

that's what i don't understand. that's what is puzzling to me. i don't see why lacrosse players who break the law make lacrosse look worse than football or basketball players who break the law make football or basketball look. i don't believe lacrosse players are any more of a menace than football players, basketball players, hockey players, etc.

[DC Muskie]

brew-

Maybe this is the way I think of it. You are young, poor and African American. Football is your way out of the poor place you grew up in. Schools are all clamoring for you to come their place and make them huge amounts of money and for the most part, you would have never gotten into that school if you hadn't been a star athlete.

You are also an idiot. You've never been punished for anything. You get into trouble a lot and people keep bailing you out. It all leads up to you killing someone let's say.

Could all of this happened if you didn't play football? Sure. Could football have helped you become a better person? Of course. But did football foster an environment that you gave you a sense of entitlement? I would argue yes.

The NBA had a huge perception problem before Bird and Magic. It still has a perception problem, hence the stupid dress code. Roger Goodell is punishing guys like Big Ben for continuing to act like a moron. Because it's a poor reflection of the sport.

A rich white kid from a rich white kid school, playing a rich white kid sport, who has the sense of entitlement and has never been punished for anything can lead up to killing someone. And that sort of gives Lacrosse a bad name.

[PMI]

pmi, i really didn't disagree with a single specific point that you made. i was basing my response on the overall general attitude people seem to have toward lacrosse, not anything you said specifically.



i understand (at least kind of) why you feel this way. what i don't understand is why you and so many others are forced to feel compelled to feel this way.

i love college basketball. when the baylor player was murdered, i didn't feel compelled to have to defend college basketball because no one was making a strong association between the crime they committed and the sport that they played. i sure as hell wasn't worried that the game would "suffer in the long run." i don't think nfl fans feel compelled to defend football every time a current or former player is charged with a serious crime (which happens regularly).

what lawrence taylor is accused of doing is pretty serious stuff. a middle aged man had sex with a sixteen year old and negotiated this through a pimp. to me, that's worse (or at least as bad) as what the duke lacrose players were accused of doing, but didn't actually do. lawrence taylor is in the news, but not nearly to the degree that the duke story was. lawrence taylor is a bigger star who played a more popular sport, and has been accused of committing a very serious crime, yet it's not getting half the coverage of what three no-name lacrosse players from duke received. i'm almost compelled to believe that had it been a college lacrosse player being acused of rape instead of lawrence taylor, the story would be twice as big.

that's what i don't understand. that's what is puzzling to me. i don't see why lacrosse players who break the law make lacrosse look worse than football or basketball players who break the law make football or basketball look. i don't believe lacrosse players are any more of a menace than football players, basketball players, hockey players, etc.

That kind of plays into my point. There is a certain attitude towards lacrosse as a sport which is not fair. For people who live in lax-heavy areas it may be easy to understand that it's just a stereotype and that there's no danger in playing lax as opposed to other sports, but for others this may not be the case. College basketball was never in trouble after the Baylor incident. The NFL will never be in trouble because of it's greatest defensive player possibly ever being accused of raping a minor. But lacrosse as a whole seems to be vulnerable to taking a significant hit because of a couple bad incidents.

I'm not sure why others are compelled to feel a certain way, as you alluded to, but it certainly seems that they do. It may not make sense to you why lax players breaking the law are treated differently than other athletes, but I believe that they are. I do NOT want to start a political debate (you may notice that I stay away from those) but the media does tend to lean to the left and this may be an opportunity to show how rich white boys are as prone to these issues as poor minorities, and maybe they feel an overcompensation is called or to get the point across. I don't know, but I do fear that the sport is/will be treated differently by those on the outside and those in the media.