GM pays off their government loans?

[Snipe]

GM should stand for Government Motors. It is amazing what they are trying to sell the American public.

Repaying Taxpayers With Their Own Cash (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/business/02gret.html?ref=business)
The New York Times
By GRETCHEN MORGENSON


AS we inch closer to a clearer understanding of the products and practices that unleashed the credit crisis of 2008, it’s becoming apparent that those seeking the whole truth are still outnumbered by those aiming to obscure it. This is the case not only on Wall Street but also in Washington.

Those seeking the truth are always outnumbered by the powerful interests engaged in the blame game...


G.M. trumpeted its escape from the program as evidence that it had turned the corner in its operations. “G.M. is able to repay the taxpayers in full, with interest, ahead of schedule, because more customers are buying vehicles like the Chevrolet Malibu and Buick LaCrosse,” boasted Edward E. Whitacre Jr., its chief executive.

G.M. also crowed about its loan repayment in a national television ad and the United States Treasury also marked the moment with a press release: “We are encouraged that G.M. has repaid its debt well ahead of schedule and confident that the company is on a strong path to viability,” said Timothy F. Geithner, the Treasury secretary.

Taxpayers are naturally eager for news about bailout repayments. But what neither G.M. nor the Treasury disclosed was that the company simply used other funds held by the Treasury to pay off its original loan.

This should make you sick.

It is not enough that they are lying to you. I am sure people, companies and even big corporations lie all the time. Not most of the time, but plenty of it.

What should make you sick is the coordination between Government Motors and the United States Treasury. They even both sent out companion press releases. They both lied to you with a straight face.

This isn't some conspiracy theory. GM is bleeding money and cash reserves, and they have been losing money every year. By some estimates the company had a negative net worth years ago due to penison obligations and structured contracts that can't be nullified. The reorganization of GM did nothing to change that, they simply wiped out the bond holders and the shareholders (the true owners) and gave the company to the unions instead of addressing the union/pension issue.

It was not at all a standard bankruptcy. It was done by Barack Obama and his administration. He fired the President of GM and installed the liar who just told us they repaid the government, but omitted the fact that they repaid the government with government funds. George Orwell would be proud.

The new President of GM had previous connections to the Obama administration. They put their own guy in there. The Presidential Task force on the Auto Industry during the bankruptcy and restructing had zero (read = 0) members with auto industry experience. That was a good start.

What seems evident to me at this point is that GM wouldn't have gone forth with this advertising campaing without explicit administration approval. The companion press release by the Department of the United States Treasury supports my argument. I belive that the whole campaign of lies originated in Washington and not Detroit. I think the Obama administration though you would buy it. I think they thought of it and approved it.

In my career as an accountant, saying the things that GM said in the commercial would make me guilty of fraud. If I did what the Government/GM was doing, I think I could go to jail for misleading investors and the general public. If not, why have those laws on disclosure?

Lucky for them that instead of investigating wrongdoing, the SEC likes to surf for Porn (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/sec-pornography-employees-spent-hours-surfing-porn-sites/story?id=10452544).

Speaking of the SEC Porn Love, I just can't wait until the government gets hold of my health care records. And yours. Safe and sound I am sure, those wonderful people will be looking out for the healthcare of us all...

[PM Thor]

Muddy is that you?

3 link has nothing on Snipe.

I HATE dayton.

[GuyFawkes38]

Muddy is that you?

3 link has nothing on Snipe.

I HATE dayton.

Is it just me, or does this post by thor make no sense?

[Masterofreality]

Just understand this:

Government Motors "paying back their loans" is a sham. We taxpayers were stuck with a $60 billion bill to keep GM operating- and that was after all the previous stockholders- mostly little people like you and I, and numerous parts suppliers got stiffed in the bankruptcy. Many of those suppliers had to declare bankruptcy and go out of business themselves. They didn't have the political clout like the UAW did however.

The $8 billion "paid back" is a drop in the bucket. In fact, all it is is taking a part of the remaining $52 billion and "paying back" the government as a nice feel-good scam. Whether the American public ever gets the $52 billion back is dependent on whether they can ever sell new stock to some more suckers. Until they can show a profit, there will be no public offering.

Trust me, after this debacle, there will be no GM stock, nor another GM vehicle sold to me. I'm all Ford. period. Used to work for them and love their new products.

No scam from Ford.

[Snipe]

Muddy is that you?

3 link has nothing on Snipe.

I HATE dayton.


Is it just me, or does this post by thor make no sense?

I don't think he likes my posts. He likes to put mindless filler and disrupt my threads. If he doesn't care he should keep to himself. If he does care he should post something other than calling me Muddy. I don't mind if someone calls me names, but at least make an attempt at addressing the argument or topic before the namecalling.

[nuts4xu]

Ford is the model by which all domestic car makers should attempt to duplicate. They didn't take money in the buy out, they juggled their operating procedures, cut costs, and balanced their own finances.

People used to say that Ford stood for "Found On Road Dead" and criticized the product. I haven't heard those same complaints lately. I have driven a Ford product (paid for and selected by my company) for the past 9 years, and have been surprised at how well these vehicles hold up.

Screw GM. They can suck a bag of dicks.

[nuts4xu]

Muddy is that you?

3 link has nothing on Snipe.

I HATE dayton.

Seriously bro... what in the hell are you talking about?

[Snipe]

Just understand this:

Government Motors "paying back their loans" is a sham. We taxpayers were stuck with a $60 billion bill to keep GM operating- and that was after all the previous stockholders- mostly little people like you and I, and numerous parts suppliers got stiffed in the bankruptcy. Many of those suppliers had to declare bankruptcy and go out of business themselves. They didn't have the political clout like the UAW did however.

The $8 billion "paid back" is a drop in the bucket. In fact, all it is is taking a part of the remaining $52 billion and "paying back" the government as a nice feel-good scam. Whether the American public ever gets the $52 billion back is dependent on whether they can ever sell new stock to some more suckers. Until they can show a profit, there will be no public offering.

Trust me, after this debacle, there will be no GM stock, nor another GM vehicle sold to me. I'm all Ford. period. Used to work for them and love their new products.

No scam from Ford.

I wouldn't by a GM vechicle after all of this. I am with you on Ford. You have to wonder if Ford will be able to compete in the long run though. The government injected 50-60 billion into their competition and wiped out the bond holders who held the GM debt. Talk about an unfair advantage. With the taxing authority behind your competition it usually signals that your days are numbered. Who can compete with that?

Just as when one airline sheds its pensions obligations others have to follow suit to remain competative. Or when one Steel company restructures and throws off all of their debt they reenter the market stronger than the other Steel companies who then have to restructure as well. I can't see Ford making it in the long term when they have to compete with Governement funded motors.

[Juice]

Ford is the model by which all domestic car makers should attempt to duplicate. They didn't take money in the buy out, they juggled their operating procedures, cut costs, and balanced their own finances.

People used to say that Ford stood for "Found On Road Dead" and criticized the product. I haven't heard those same complaints lately. I have driven a Ford product (paid for and selected by my company) for the past 9 years, and have been surprised at how well these vehicles hold up.

Screw GM. They can suck a bag of dicks.

I had this conversation the other day with someone. We both agreed that Ford would be the first choice for us (not that I have the money to buy a car) but also that we would both more likely buy a Toyota even with all their current problems over a GM right now.

[Kahns Krazy]

Is it just me, or does this post by thor make no sense?

If there were a filter that could block Thor's posts after midnight, I would use it. Drunk thor never makes sense. At least this one wasn't profanity laced as they usually are.

[PM Thor]

When are my posts ever profanity laced? I never do that.

My post was comparing Snipe to muddy from the A10 site, with links and quotes from other sites to bolster his argument. As for arguing for or against the content of the post, it's irrelevant. Some people have their mind made up on a subject and only post things in order to feel better about their position on a matter. When it comes to politics, I think Snipe falls in that category all the time.

That's pretty much why I stay out of the political psychobabble on forums.

I HATE dayton.

[Snipe]

When are my posts ever profanity laced? I never do that.

My post was comparing Snipe to muddy from the A10 site, with links and quotes from other sites to bolster his argument. As for arguing for or against the content of the post, it's irrelevant. Some people have their mind made up on a subject and only post things in order to feel better about their position on a matter. When it comes to politics, I think Snipe falls in that category all the time.

That's pretty much why I stay out of the political psychobabble on forums.

I HATE dayton.

Then by all means please stay off my threads. I have invited you to do this a number of times. This fits your MO. I post something, you come on and call me names and avoid the topic. You even say "As for arguing for or against the content of the post, it's irrelevant." Not revelvant to who? You? Do you have a master list of topics that are allowed to be covered without the namecalling? And you are a moderator? Grow up.

[PM Thor]

Now who is doing the namecalling Snipe?

When I said it was irrelevant, I meant it is irrelevant for me specifically to argue for or against any of these political topics you post up. No one ever changes their mind on them, and it's just complaining for complainings sake. Your MO is to post up these rambling diatribes about subjects over and over, yet never going outside of your own comfort box politically. It's constant, and I think you are pretty well known for it. I just equate it to mud heads unhealthy obsession with everything X. Yours is the obsession with pointing to what you think is everything wrong with this country.

I HATE dayton.

[Masterofreality]

I just equate it to mud heads unhealthy obsession with everything X. Yours is the obsession with pointing to what you think is everything wrong with this country.

I HATE dayton.



Hello pot. Meet kettle.

Seems as if there are plenty of "obsessions" to go around.:D

[Snipe]

Muddy is that you?

3 link has nothing on Snipe.

I HATE dayton.


When are my posts ever profanity laced? I never do that.

My post was comparing Snipe to muddy from the A10 site, with links and quotes from other sites to bolster his argument. As for arguing for or against the content of the post, it's irrelevant. Some people have their mind made up on a subject and only post things in order to feel better about their position on a matter. When it comes to politics, I think Snipe falls in that category all the time.

That's pretty much why I stay out of the political psychobabble on forums.

I HATE dayton.


Now who is doing the namecalling Snipe?

When I said it was irrelevant, I meant it is irrelevant for me specifically to argue for or against any of these political topics you post up. No one ever changes their mind on them, and it's just complaining for complainings sake. Your MO is to post up these rambling diatribes about subjects over and over, yet never going outside of your own comfort box politically. It's constant, and I think you are pretty well known for it. I just equate it to mud heads unhealthy obsession with everything X. Yours is the obsession with pointing to what you think is everything wrong with this country.

I HATE dayton.

You have three posts on this topic, not one of which is about the actual topic. I want you to stop posting on this thread and all my political threads. I don't care what you have to say. The topic of your posts is me. I don't care how you feel about me.

You have done this exact same thing on other threads. You hijack the thread or attempt to hijack it. You get it off topic and you make the subject me. And the worst part is you do it in a way that isn't remotely entertaining.

If you want attention start your own thread or go somewhere else.

As for not being able to see outside my narrow ideological comfort zone, this post is about GM paying back the government on loans that it took out. GM just announced this in a national advertising campaign. The treasury department backed them up in a press release.

The money that GM got from the government comes from people who pay taxes. Their property was confiscated by the government and given to GM. When they paid back the government they were paying back the taxpayer. What they neglected to tell us is that they were paying back the taxpayer with taxpayer funds. That is six in one hand and a half dozen in the other. Nothing changed. The taxpayers on still on the hook for over 50 billions dollars to GM so far, and the shareholders and bondholders have seen their assets in GM liquidated. An incredible price has been paid and it isn’t close to being paid back.

To have their government payback be the focus of an advertising campaign without disclosing that they paid back the government with taxpayer dollars is deceitful and reprehensible in my opinion. I would classify it as a bold faced lie. What makes it worse to me is that it appears it was done in coordination and with the blessing of the Obama administration.

Now maybe you think what GM did was a good idea, or that the concurrent endorsement by the United States Treasury was an example of good government in action. If you feel this way, you could disabuse me of my small minded notions of truth and honesty in these public dealings by making an argument. But you don’t make that argument or any argument. You make me the subject of debate and you interrupt the conversation. You have a habit of doing this and it needs to end.

As for not going out of my comfort box politically I ripped George Bush when he was president. I ripped John McCain when he was a presidential candidate. I have ripped Michael Steele, who is the current head of the Republican Party. You never seemed to hijack those threads or interrupt them to tell me how close minded I was.

If you want to look at someone with a closed mind I would suggest a mirror would be a good place to start. Please get lost. You won’t be missed.

[PM Thor]

Is someones feelings hurt?

You are a one trick pony Snipe.

I HATE dayton.

[bobbiemcgee]

I drive old honda's. Change the belts, plugs,rotors and pads (ebay $62) every 120k. Repeat.

[boozehound]

Ford is the model by which all domestic car makers should attempt to duplicate. They didn't take money in the buy out, they juggled their operating procedures, cut costs, and balanced their own finances.

People used to say that Ford stood for "Found On Road Dead" and criticized the product. I haven't heard those same complaints lately. I have driven a Ford product (paid for and selected by my company) for the past 9 years, and have been surprised at how well these vehicles hold up.

Screw GM. They can suck a bag of dicks.

I agree. Ford really has done a great job of 'reinventing' themselves in a way. The Ford Fusion is a legitimately nice car. Not just 'nice for the money', but actually nice.

I got a 2009 Ford Focus as a rental car a few weeks ago and was impressed by how nice that was, as well.

Ford cars have definitely come a long way from the Escort that I drove in High School and College.

[Kahns Krazy]

Then by all means please stay off my threads. I have invited you to do this a number of times. This fits your MO. I post something, you come on and call me names and avoid the topic. You even say "As for arguing for or against the content of the post, it's irrelevant." Not revelvant to who? You? Do you have a master list of topics that are allowed to be covered without the namecalling? And you are a moderator? Grow up.


Now who is doing the namecalling Snipe?
.

I'm not sure you know what "namecalling" means.

[nuts4xu]

The new Taurus looks like a luxury car, and I have heard good reports from the people who have driven one. I drive a Mercury Sable, change the oil whenever my company tells me, usually every 10,000 miles or more, and I have yet to have any problems with these vehicles.

As a matter of fact, I think the new Taurus looks strikingly similar to the BMW 5 series. Can't tell you if they perform in a similar fashion, my guess is they do not, but for a reliable car in the mid $20k range, the 2010 Taurus doesn't look like the same old "fleet car" versions they put out in the early part of this decade.

http://www.itechnews.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/2010-ford-taurus-sho.jpghttp://www.circlebmw.com/new/vehicle-images/1057-354-1.jpg

[nuts4xu]

Gotta back up the Snipe man on this debate.

Thor, if you don't like the political psycho-babble, it may be best to refrain from posting. It isn't my favorite subject, but I typically read the prose from Jesus Christ if nothing else to see how good the rum was he was drinking the night before.

The current thread is a relevant off season topic and is a current subject for discussion. Any further comments aside from the subject, is what is REALLY not relevant. I move for you, as a MOD, to delete your own posts and allow the thread to continue as it was designed.

It seems the most logical in my opinion.

[X-band '01]

In my career as an accountant, saying the things that GM said in the commercial would make me guilty of fraud. If I did what the Government/GM was doing, I think I could go to jail for misleading investors and the general public. If not, why have those laws on disclosure?


The $8 billion "paid back" is a drop in the bucket. In fact, all it is is taking a part of the remaining $52 billion and "paying back" the government as a nice feel-good scam. Whether the American public ever gets the $52 billion back is dependent on whether they can ever sell new stock to some more suckers. Until they can show a profit, there will be no public offering.


At least now we know where the missing $3,000 (I think that was the amount) went from Donald Little's scholarship/housing stipend.

[X-band '01]

But on a serious note, it does make you wonder about GM's motives to suddenly now act like they're trying to "pay back" their TARP money. Their sales are getting higher as compared to April of last year, albeit not at the same rate as their competition.

NY Times - Higher April Sales for Ford and G.M. (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/business/04auto.html?hpw)

It seemed like all the big banks would try to pay back their TARP money merely to get around government restrictions on bonuses and other perks that the government froze when they made the bailout money available.

Or is this just a political ploy to prop up GM as certain states start to go into primary election mode - Ohio included?

[bobbiemcgee]

The new Taurus looks like a luxury car, and I have heard good reports from the people who have driven one. I drive a Mercury Sable, change the oil whenever my company tells me, usually every 10,000 miles or more, and I have yet to have any problems with these vehicles.

As a matter of fact, I think the new Taurus looks strikingly similar to the BMW 5 series. Can't tell you if they perform in a similar fashion, my guess is they do not, but for a reliable car in the mid $20k range, the 2010 Taurus doesn't look like the same old "fleet car" versions they put out in the early part of this decade.

http://www.itechnews.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/2010-ford-taurus-sho.jpghttp://www.circlebmw.com/new/vehicle-images/1057-354-1.jpg

It ain't no K car, but a long way from a Beemer.

[Kahns Krazy]

It ain't no K car, but a long way from a Beemer.

I think nuts was referring to looks only, and I have to say that there are certainly similarities in those two cars.

[XU 87]

I drive old honda's. Change the belts, plugs,rotors and pads (ebay $62) every 120k. Repeat.

I think I drove that same Honda. 170,000 miles and I was still on my original clutch. Other than brake pads, I'm pretty sure I had no other brake repairs.

[bobbiemcgee]

I think I drove that same Honda. 170,000 miles and I was still on my original clutch. Other than brake pads, I'm pretty sure I had no other brake repairs.

The slotted rotors and ceramic pads came as a pkg for $62. Too lazy to pay someone to grind the old rotors, just slapped on the new ones.

[bobbiemcgee]

I'm going on one of those "adventure" vacations. Driving a GM product through 110 degree So. AZ desert with no ID.