Do you have to cheat to be a decent NYC area college hoops team????

[LutherRackleyRulez]

Per NY Times.....



Firing by St. John’s Further Cools Basketball Hotbed

St. John’s fired Coach Norm Roberts on Friday morning, leaving four Division I jobs open in the metropolitan area. The second day of the N.C.A.A. tournament coincided with a bleak time in local basketball — an area that regards itself as a basketball hotbed is staring at another empty postseason.

With coaching vacancies at St. John’s, Seton Hall, Fordham and Wagner, the question lingers:

can a program with big aspirations achieve the level of success it wants without breaking N.C.A.A. rules?




In six years, Roberts cleaned up the turmoil left behind by Mike Jarvis but compiled a record of 81-101. Roberts rescued St. John’s from chaos and represented the university in a dignified manner. But he lost too many games.

“Norm was everything you would want your university to be represented by,” said Tom Konchalski, the editor and publisher of High School Basketball Illustrated, who has covered the city’s recruiting scene for four decades. “I’m somewhat disappointed. He returned dignity and integrity, and in turn, they fired him. St. John’s is not being true to itself here.”

There is a notion that it is difficult for a college in the metropolitan area to win without currying the favor of youth coaches in the region. It is a notion that coaches themselves like to perpetuate. Russell Smith, a coach with the New York Gauchos, an Amateur Athletic Union program, said Roberts and his staff had been “too laid-back” in their local recruiting efforts.

“You got to hustle here, bend some rules or do something,” Smith said. “They settled for the transfers and second-tier kids.”

***Kenny Wilcox, the head coach at ASA, a junior college in Brooklyn, said St. John’s had been foolish to think it could win without bending the rules.

"It’s naïve because if you know the business, there are certain schools that are getting certain types of players and certain schools that aren’t,” Wilcox said. “At St. John’s, they’re not getting certain types of players because they’re doing things the right way.”






http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/20/sports/ncaabasketball/20storm.html?scp=1&sq=roberts%20%20st%20johns&st=cse

[stophorseabuse]

scary quotes from the aau guys.

[bjf123]

Those AAU quotes should get the NCAA's attention and have them start their own investigation into just what these coaches mean.

[X-band '01]

If that's the case, I applaud Roberts even more for actually trying to win the right way. He'll land on his feet at a program where he'll have a puncher's chance to be more competitive. It makes me wonder just how dirty guys like Jarvis and Carnesecca supposedly were to be competitive in the Big East.

[Woodburn]

Don't forget that Book Richardson was the director of the same Gauchos program when he was named an assistant at X under Miller. That coach's quote made me feel quite uneasy.

[Xman95]

It makes me wonder just how dirty guys like Jarvis and Carnesecca supposedly were to be competitive in the Big East.

Or guys like Calhoun, Pitino, etc. I get the feeling this is much more of a Big East thing (if not a Big 6 thing) than it is a NY thing.

[jdm2000]

There was an interesting article some time ago in SI about St. John's. Apparently they used to benefit from a rule that had something to do with the funding you could give to players for housing, based on the cost to live in the area. (I can't recall it correctly, but basically, SJU did not have much housing on campus, and would get to give the basketball players the $$$ that would be necessary to get housing in NYC. This amount, obviously, would be significant.)

[D-West & PO-Z]

There was an interesting article some time ago in SI about St. John's. Apparently they used to benefit from a rule that had something to do with the funding you could give to players for housing, based on the cost to live in the area. (I can't recall it correctly, but basically, SJU did not have much housing on campus, and would get to give the basketball players the $$$ that would be necessary to get housing in NYC. This amount, obviously, would be significant.)

I think many colleges give their athletes money for off campus housing. I remember a story on ESPN about one school, cant remember who but it wasnt St. Johns, whose players were taking the money but living in subsidized housing and basically pocketing the rest of the money.

[Cheesehead]

There's a player from NCH (Mayo, Walker and ?) that is currently on the roster at ASA. It's like his 3rd or 4th college. I wonder how the hell he ended up there? Something is fishy.

[stophorseabuse]

Answered Today.

NO, You don't have to cheat to win!

[Juice]

There's a player from NCH (Mayo, Walker and ?) that is currently on the roster at ASA. It's like his 3rd or 4th college. I wonder how the hell he ended up there? Something is fishy.

Keenan Ellis?

Tall bean pole that did absolutely nothing for NCH.

[DoubleD86]

Or guys like Calhoun, Pitino, etc. I get the feeling this is much more of a Big East thing (if not a Big 6 thing) than it is a NY thing.


Answered Today.

NO, You don't have to cheat to win!

I know this may ruffle some feathers, but I doubt this is just a Big East/Big 6 thing. I really do believe that most(if not pretty much all) successful programs at least bend the rules some. BE SURE, I have ZERO knowledge or actual evidence to say this. It just makes the line blurry on what is "bending the rules" and what is "dirty" and thus makes the program a cheating program.

Still, I find it hard to believe that X or any major successful program is completely clean.

[blobfan]

I know this may ruffle some feathers, but I doubt this is just a Big East/Big 6 thing. I really do believe that most(if not pretty much all) successful programs at least bend the rules some. BE SURE, I have ZERO knowledge or actual evidence to say this. It just makes the line blurry on what is "bending the rules" and what is "dirty" and thus makes the program a cheating program.

Still, I find it hard to believe that X or any major successful program is completely clean.

Perhaps I'm naive but I have no problem believing it. I can't imagine the administration or anyone in X's athletic department is dirty. I would not be surprised, however, if the players occasionally used their stipends for something other than what they should. I would not be surprised if a booster or fan occasionally skated around a rule they didn't completely understand.

I guess I'm saying that the rules seem really complex and it seems easy for accidental minor infractions but I can't imagine that someone working for X is deliberately trying to find ways around the rules, or ways to break them without detection.

[DoubleD86]

Perhaps I'm naive but I have no problem believing it. I can't imagine the administration or anyone in X's athletic department is dirty. I would not be surprised, however, if the players occasionally used their stipends for something other than what they should. I would not be surprised if a booster or fan occasionally skated around a rule they didn't completely understand.

I guess I'm saying that the rules seem really complex and it seems easy for accidental minor infractions but I can't imagine that someone working for X is deliberately trying to find ways around the rules, or ways to break them without detection.

I am studying in the Sports Admin. masters now, and one class is just a study of the NCAA rulebook. I can flat out tell you there are a TON of rules on pure minutia that I would almost bet money that most colleges skirt around or bend. Mostly because they really have little effect on recruiting/games and they are almost impossible to get caught with.

Don't get me wrong, I do not think Xavier is dirty. I love the fact that the school and program seems to do things the right way. However, I still think lots of smaller rules are broken or bent by almost all colleges. The difference is, most of those rules are so small or unimportant in the grand scheme of things that it hardly makes a program dirty.

Edit: Again, this is in no way a statement on something that happened, just hypothetical, but something as simple as a sign in the locker room saying "Welcome [Recruit's Name]" is technically an NCAA violation.

[xu05usmc]

I know this may ruffle some feathers, but I doubt this is just a Big East/Big 6 thing. I really do believe that most(if not pretty much all) successful programs at least bend the rules some. BE SURE, I have ZERO knowledge or actual evidence to say this. It just makes the line blurry on what is "bending the rules" and what is "dirty" and thus makes the program a cheating program.

Still, I find it hard to believe that X or any major successful program is completely clean.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. My guess is that it is more prevalent in the non big-6 conferences too only because the smaller guys are under less scrutiny and can get away with it a lot easier.

If the NCAA wouldn't spend all their time on a witch hunt against the OJ Mayos, John Walls, ect. they would probably find a hell of a lot of stuff wrong with every program. If you've ever read William Rhoaden's 40 Million Dollar Slaves, you find out that most college coaches are entirely shady with the way they recruit young urban black athletes. They ignore the kids parents and go through AAU coaches, friends in the neighborhood, ect. in hopes those people can convince them to attend a particular school. Allegedly the OJ Mayo incident does not involve Mayo taking money, but people around him. Just saying.