McGwire admits to using steroids

[XU 87]

Several outlets are reporting that Mark McGwire has admitted to using steroids, including the year he broke the home run record.

Now I know that this admission comes as no surprise to virtually everyone on this board, (and the rest of the rational U.S. population) but I just wanted to let LH know.

[xeus]

87, just because he said he took steroids isn't proof that he actually took steroids.

[xeus]

McGwire Admits the Obvious (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4816607)

[Muskie]

Did you hear that LaRussa may use him in the post-season this upcoming year? Apparently McGwire is going to be the hitting coach for most of the season and will make himself available for the playoffs.

[Kahns Krazy]

In an interview with ESPN's "Baseball Tonight", La Russa said he didn't know McGwire had used steroids until the slugger had admitted using performance-enhancing drugs in the phone call to the manager earlier Monday.

La Russa and LH - the last two people on earth to find out.

[PM Thor]

So do they throw out his records?

I hope to God for the purity of baseball, that they do. (If there is such a thing as "purity" in baseball.

I HATE dayton.

[XU05and07]

"Mr. Maris, here is your title back" - Bud Selig

[nuts4xu]

So do they throw out his records?



I hope not, that seems ridiculous. After all of the cheating the sport has witnessed in the 140+ year history, why now suddenly begin to erase records?

It has been speculated McGwire will likely never gain entrance to the Hall of Fame. Now that he has come clean, he has only made his case worse.

The steroid era is shameful, but Major League Baseball did not put much effort into preventing such rampant abuse of performance enhancing drugs. I am not defending McGwire, but the notion that baseball should ban records seems hypocritical to me.

[PM Thor]

But Nuts I bet they do remove his records.

It's because baseball wants to be percieved as being clean, even if it vicariously endorsed the use of 'roids at the time. If they don't take the records away, then it's an admission that baseball accepts what happened as ok.

I HATE dayton.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

But Nuts I bet they do remove his records.

It's because baseball wants to be percieved as being clean, even if it vicariously endorsed the use of 'roids at the time. If they don't take the records away, then it's an admission that baseball accepts what happened as ok.

I HATE dayton.

I hope they take the records away. McGwire Sosa Bonds. Nuts is right. The only reason he's admitting this now is to try to get the public vote on his side for the hall of fame(Which will never happen)

PM is also right. Baseball obviously knew about the problem they were having and still have with PED's, but the players union was either too strong or Selig didn't care because homeruns and outrageous numbers brought fans back to the stadiums or a combination of the two.

Regardless, Selig has to wipe these records away if he wants anyone to believe his story that he tried his best to fix the problem when it started (BS in my opinion). If he doesn't wipe these records and stats away, his already low credibility will be comparable with milly vanilly's

[XUglow]

He's still lying.

Hey, Mark. Tim Ghazalleh. Does that name ring a bell? Stop the crap that you were EVER clean for any part of your baseball career.

[Xaveriana]

Say It Ain't So Joe (Mark), Say It Ain't So...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2758/4267279240_ca5309c65c_o.jpg

I see no differences in his size in 1990 when he played the Reds in the World Series vs. his last couple years with St. Louis. :rolleyes:

[DC Muskie]

Anyone else surprised he made this announcement on a Monday? That's the worst day of the week to do something I imagine they didn't want much discussion about.

[bobbiemcgee]

I hope they take the records away. McGwire Sosa Bonds. Nuts is right. The only reason he's admitting this now is to try to get the public vote on his side for the hall of fame(Which will never happen)

PM is also right. Baseball obviously knew about the problem they were having and still have with PED's, but the players union was either too strong or Selig didn't care because homeruns and outrageous numbers brought fans back to the stadiums or a combination of the two.

Regardless, Selig has to wipe these records away if he wants anyone to believe his story that he tried his best to fix the problem when it started (BS in my opinion). If he doesn't wipe these records and stats away, his already low credibility will be comparable with milly vanilly's

I think he only admitted it cuz he wants a job in Baseball.

[Kahns Krazy]

Why would he not be subject to being banned from baseball? What is the message here? If you lie about cheating for long enough, you can get away with it, and be rewarded?

Stupid.

[Smooth]

I think he only admitted it cuz he wants a job in Baseball.

I don't see how he can be allowed to be their hitting coach. He's a cheater and a liar and probably engaged in illegal activity. Sure, you can probably find these issues (on a smaller scale) with many players in the past, but there has to be some kind of punishment from either baseball or the courts.

Wally Backman was fired after 4 days back in 2004.

[X-band '01]

Wasn't it publicized that he was taking andro during the mid-90s? Granted, it wasn't illegal then, but he had made it all but clear that he was going to do anything to get an edge, whether clean or not.

And no, Congress, this is not a green light for you to interrupt health care bill consolidation to "ask McGwire about the past."

[Xpectations]

Wasn't it publicized that he was taking andro during the mid-90s? Granted, it wasn't illegal then, but he had made it all but clear that he was going to do anything to get an edge, whether clean or not.

And no, Congress, this is not a green light for you to interrupt health care bill consolidation to "ask McGwire about the past."

He planted the Andro in plain view because the steroid accusations had begun to rise. He wanted everyone to think he was doing something legal, though questionable, to try to end the speculation.

Wonder what LH is thinking right now? I actually wonder that a lot. Whenever I'm faced with a tough decision I ask myself, "What would LH do?"

If anyone, and I mean ANYONE, still believes that steroid don't help you hit more home runs than you could hit without them, they are certifiably nuts (no offense to the real Nuts).

I used to play some major and super major softball with guys who juiced (yes, slow pitch softball ... not just sports where you can make millions). They were paid players but were hoping for bat contract-like bucks. It's amazing how much farther they could hit the ball on the juice than before they were on it.

[DC Muskie]

He planted the Andro in plain view because the steroid accusations had begun to rise. He wanted everyone to think he was doing something legal, though questionable, to try to end the speculation.

Did he really? I never knew that.

I have a friend who is not a sports guy at all, when the Andro thing came out, started talking about how all of these guys are juicers and cheaters and blah, blah, blah...

I never thought all these later this non sports guy would get this correct. And it all started with the Andro in his locker. I never realized he had it planted.

[Kahns Krazy]

I used to play some major and super major softball with guys who juiced (yes, slow pitch softball ... not just sports where you can make millions). They were paid players but were hoping for bat contract-like bucks. It's amazing how much farther they could hit the ball on the juice than before they were on it.


Did they take walks?

[STL_XUfan]

Haven't baseball players always done what they could to get an edge. Wasn't in common place in the 70's to take greenies (amphetamines) (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2006/04/02/PBP_AMPHET_0402.html) to keep yourself up for the game. Should we go back and ban all of those players?

While what he did was wrong, it was quietly endorsed by the game. Go back to 1998 newspaper archives and read what they wrote about that home-run race. Did anyone believe they weren't juicing? They just didn't care because they were saving the game. However, the same people that deified McGuire in 1998 are the ones leading the charge to crucify him.

[XU 87]

[QUOTE=STL_XUfan;164771]Haven't baseball players always done what they could to get an edge. Wasn't in common place in the 70's to take greenies (amphetamines) (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2006/04/02/PBP_AMPHET_0402.html) to keep yourself up for the game. Should we go back and ban all of those players?

/QUOTE]


I think there's a big difference between taking a greenie before a game becuase you're tired and taking steroids to get you bigger and stronger. A greenie maybe made the player a little more alert. Whether that actualy helped a player's performance during the game is probably debatable.

Steroids, on the other hand, can turn a 20 home run hitter into a 50 home run hitter. Mediocre players can turn into portentialhall of famers. Pitchers who should have been retiring were winning Cy Young awards.

[bobbiemcgee]

I don't see how he can be allowed to be their hitting coach. He's a cheater and a liar and probably engaged in illegal activity. Sure, you can probably find these issues (on a smaller scale) with many players in the past, but there has to be some kind of punishment from either baseball or the courts.

Wally Backman was fired after 4 days back in 2004.

He's on Tv lying right now...sez "no advantage"....what an ass. Why did he bother...still lying......nothing changed.

[GuyFawkes38]

I'm really worried about the kids. Mcgwire admiting this just gave millions of kids out there an excuse to juice up ("well Mcgwire did it.")

[xeus]

I'm really worried about the kids. Mcgwire admiting this just gave millions of kids out there an excuse to juice up ("well Mcgwire did it.")

You're just mad you didn't hear about it first on twitter.

[Xpectations]

Did they take walks?

Kinda the opposite. I recall a couple of them threatening to shove their bats up the pitcher's a$$ if he didn't throw them a strike.

[chico]

[QUOTE=STL_XUfan;164771]Haven't baseball players always done what they could to get an edge. Wasn't in common place in the 70's to take greenies (amphetamines) (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2006/04/02/PBP_AMPHET_0402.html) to keep yourself up for the game. Should we go back and ban all of those players?

/QUOTE]


I think there's a big difference between taking a greenie before a game becuase you're tired and taking steroids to get you bigger and stronger. A greenie maybe made the player a little more alert. Whether that actualy helped a player's performance during the game is probably debatable.

Steroids, on the other hand, can turn a 20 home run hitter into a 50 home run hitter. Mediocre players can turn into portentialhall of famers. Pitchers who should have been retiring were winning Cy Young awards.

Not to mention being able to recover from injury quicker.

[GuyFawkes38]

Chris Mack just delivered an official statement regarding this matter on Twitter:


Hey Selig, wake up!! Totally hypocritical. Mark McGuire should never be allowed on a MLB baseball field. He's sorry?? What does that mean?

very tough. Not very Oprah like.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

[QUOTE=STL_XUfan;164771]Haven't baseball players always done what they could to get an edge. Wasn't in common place in the 70's to take greenies (amphetamines) (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2006/04/02/PBP_AMPHET_0402.html) to keep yourself up for the game. Should we go back and ban all of those players?

/QUOTE]


I think there's a big difference between taking a greenie before a game becuase you're tired and taking steroids to get you bigger and stronger. A greenie maybe made the player a little more alert. Whether that actualy helped a player's performance during the game is probably debatable.

Steroids, on the other hand, can turn a 20 home run hitter into a 50 home run hitter. Mediocre players can turn into portentialhall of famers. Pitchers who should have been retiring were winning Cy Young awards.

Exactly. So if the player has hall of fame talent to being with (ARod), then become superhuman.

http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/

Good player to great player example - Brady Anderson. Never hit more than 21 homeruns his first 8 seasons, then hits 50. The year after he hit 50, he hit 18.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/timotes253/06-09-2009010624AM.jpg

to

http://didhejuice.com/clientimages/501bbcf3c5667ae4ab3ba069492Brady-Anderson.jpg

If Pujols implicated in anyway, this era is over. He's the one shining star that's left

[NoDaker84]

I believe one thing that most people over look on the whole reason why ball players juiced up (during the steroid era) was not only to get stronger in order to break records and recover from injuries, but simply to maintain a high level of performance throughout an entire season. Players back in the 70s took greenies to give them a boost and focus during the very long and grueling baseball season. The major problem with greenies was players were losing too much weight and in turn strength. So what did everyone turn to? Easy, steroids. Not only do they enhance your performance in terms of strength, but also the ability to perform at a high level for an extended period of time.

This is why I have so much more respect for the players that have been clean from day one, and have managed to have great baseball careers. The first name that comes to mind is Ken Griffey Jr (and thats coming from a Cubs fan). Although I have never liked the guy, not only did he crush over 500 home runs, but he did so clean, during the steroid era, while battling countless injuries. I can't stand the guy, but I have a ton of respect for him because he respected the game and played it the right way when most were looking for cheat to get an edge.

[NoDaker84]

*ment to type 600 home runs for Griffey. He currently has mashed 630 home runs.

[PM Thor]

He's on Tv lying right now...sez "no advantage"....what an ass. Why did he bother...still lying......nothing changed.

McGwire ain't too smart. If there is no advantage, then why take 'roids? What a marroon.

I HATE dayton.

[X-band '01]

Why is he coming clean now? Is it because he's trying to garner sympathy votes for Hall of Fame balloting, or was this something that maybe Bud Selig demanded he do behind the scenes in order to get another MLB gig?

[Juice]

Why is he coming clean now? Is it because he's trying to garner sympathy votes for Hall of Fame balloting, or was this something that maybe Bud Selig demanded he do behind the scenes in order to get another MLB gig?

Well he is the hitting coach for the Cardinals now, so he may have wanted to do get it over with now rather than deal with it all at spring training. He has been pretty private since retiring and this job thrusts him back into the game so he probably knew he couldn't escape it.

[MADXSTER]

McGwire took steroids.....huh.....didn't see that one coming.

Gotta go now....have to paint my cave wall.

[_LH]

Several outlets are reporting that Mark McGwire has admitted to using steroids, including the year he broke the home run record.

Now I know that this admission comes as no surprise to virtually everyone on this board, (and the rest of the rational U.S. population) but I just wanted to let LH know.

I never said he didn't take roids, only that there was no evidence he did. Big difference.

[_LH]

Haven't baseball players always done what they could to get an edge. Wasn't in common place in the 70's to take greenies (amphetamines) (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2006/04/02/PBP_AMPHET_0402.html) to keep yourself up for the game. Should we go back and ban all of those players?

While what he did was wrong, it was quietly endorsed by the game. Go back to 1998 newspaper archives and read what they wrote about that home-run race. Did anyone believe they weren't juicing? They just didn't care because they were saving the game. However, the same people that deified McGuire in 1998 are the ones leading the charge to crucify him.

Very true. No records will be stripped either. McGwire will probably have to wait 10 more years before getting into the HOF by the writers but if the writers fail to do their duty and elect a player eligible for the HOF with numbers as good or better than current HOFers, the Veteran's Committee will do right by McGwire.

[XU 87]

I never said he didn't take roids, only that there was no evidence he did. Big difference.

Do you find it strange that McGwire admitted to using steroids when there was "no evidence" that he was using steroids?

[_LH]

/QUOTE]Steroids, on the other hand, can turn a 20 home run hitter into a 50 home run hitter. Mediocre players can turn into portentialhall of famers. Pitchers who should have been retiring were winning Cy Young awards.[/QUOTE]

Wrong.

Do you think players are currently using roids, HGH or something else right now going into the 2010 season?

[_LH]

Do you find it strange that McGwire admitted to using steroids when there was "no evidence" that he was using steroids?

He never admitted it until he wanted to coach, so no.

[XU 87]

He never admitted it until he wanted to coach, so no.

My question is: If there was no evidence that he took steroids, why would he admit to do doing it? Why didn't he just keep denying taking steroids? After all, there was no evidence to prove otherwise.

[_LH]

My question is: If there was no evidence that he took steroids, why would he admit to do doing it? Why didn't he just keep denying taking steroids? After all, there was no evidence to prove otherwise.

I answered that question.

Being retired he did not have to face the media constantly asking him if he did take roids. Now that he accepted the coaching job at STL the media would have been relentless each and every day, so McGwire, wanting to be the coach, admitted it before spring training. Its pretty simple to understand. No real mystery there 87.

[Kahns Krazy]

I never said he didn't take roids, only that there was no evidence he did. Big difference.

This is an impossible statement. If he did the roids, how would there be no evidence? Did he make them himself?

[Raoul Duke]

I can't stand the guy, but I have a ton of respect for him ...

http://www.vince-vaughn.com/anchorman02b.jpg

[XU 87]

Being retired he did not have to face the media constantly asking him if he did take roids. Now that he accepted the coaching job at STL the media would have been relentless each and every day, so McGwire, wanting to be the coach, admitted it before spring training. Its pretty simple to understand. No real mystery there 87.

The only mystery is what you're saying. People don't generally admit to crimes when there's no evidence that the person committed the crime. For example:

Cop: We have no absolutely evidence that you killed that person. But did you do it?

Suspect: Yes, I did. I'm coaching a baseball team next year and would like to get this out in the open and over with.

[bobbiemcgee]

My question is: If there was no evidence that he took steroids, why would he admit to do doing it? Why didn't he just keep denying taking steroids? After all, there was no evidence to prove otherwise.

Except they found Andro in his locker in '98 and he said he was taking it.

[_LH]

This is pretty cut and dry 87:

Being retired he did not have to face the media constantly asking him if he did take roids. Now that he accepted the coaching job at STL the media would have been relentless each and every day, so McGwire, wanting to be the coach, admitted it before spring training.

KK,

Before his admission there was no publically known evidence. Happy?

[XU 87]

This is pretty cut and dry 87:

Being retired he did not have to face the media constantly asking him if he did take roids. Now that he accepted the coaching job at STL the media would have been relentless each and every day, so McGwire, wanting to be the coach, admitted it before spring training.



So you're saying that McGwire is lying to avoid media attention?

[_LH]

I'm saying he stayed quiet because he could since he was retired.

[Kahns Krazy]

This is pretty cut and dry 87:

Being retired he did not have to face the media constantly asking him if he did take roids. Now that he accepted the coaching job at STL the media would have been relentless each and every day, so McGwire, wanting to be the coach, admitted it before spring training.

KK,

Before his admission there was no publically known evidence. Happy?

Well, as long as you choose to ignore the evidence that was out there, like Canseco's statement that he injected steroids into McGuire's ass. There was publicly known evidence. You and La Russa chose not to believe it, but it was out there.

[ChicagoX]

My question is: If there was no evidence that he took steroids, why would he admit to do doing it? Why didn't he just keep denying taking steroids? After all, there was no evidence to prove otherwise.

His brother Jay McGwire is releasing a book next month with very specific details of Mark's steroid use and workout regimens. Jay is the one who got him involved with steroids and HGH in 1994 to help him recover from numerous injuries he had sustained over that previous year.

With the upcoming release of this book and the fact that football playoffs are going on right now and taking up a big chunk of the news, that is why he decided on this specific timing for his announcement. He would also have been bugged about it non-stop once he took the field for spring training as the Cardinals new hitting coach.

[_LH]

If there was any real evidence (Canseco's claim to sell a book does not count) Congress would not have had to ask him in 2005.

[XU 87]

His brother Jay McGwire is releasing a book next month with very specific details of Mark's steroid use and workout regimens. Jay is the one who got him involved with steroids and HGH in 1994 to help him recover from numerous injuries he had sustained over that previous year.

With the upcoming release of this book and the fact that football playoffs are going on right now and taking up a big chunk of the news, that is why he decided on this specific timing for his announcement. He would also have been bugged about it non-stop once he took the field for spring training as the Cardinals new hitting coach.

I was being sarcastic with my question.

[bobbiemcgee]

I personally blame Selig who is, and has been, an utter disgrace to the game. I wanna punch out my TV every time he opens his mouth. He has done absolutely nothing in his tenure....zero...nada. ASSHOLE!!!

[Xpectations]

Well, as long as you choose to ignore the evidence that was out there, like Canseco's statement that he injected steroids into McGuire's ass. There was publicly known evidence. You and La Russa chose not to believe it, but it was out there.

Or the FACT that he virtually cut his AB/HR ratio in half at an age when numbers typically get worse, not better.

There was absolutely evidence. Whether it was sufficient to be convicted in a criminal court of law (i.e., beyond a reasonable doubt) can be debated. But whether there was evidence that could have been submitted cannot be debated.

[Juice]

Or the FACT that he virtually cut his AB/HR ratio in half at an age when numbers typically get worse, not better.

There was absolutely evidence. Whether it was sufficient to be convicted in a criminal court of law (i.e., beyond a reasonable doubt) can be debated. But whether there was evidence that could have been submitted cannot be debated.

I am not defending McGwire in any way for his steroid use but I wanted to also point out that the stadium that the A's play in is one of the most pitcher friendly parks in MLB.

[_LH]

I am not defending McGwire in any way for his steroid use but I wanted to also point out that the stadium that the A's play in is one of the most pitcher friendly parks in MLB.

There are a number of factors that may have or did contribute to McGwire and 99% of other players in the 90's having better seasons than they did in the 1980's and steroid use by both hitters and pitchers is certainly one of them but it is not however evidence of steroid use. Assuption, yes, evidence, no.

Is there anyone that believes that current players are not using roids, HGH or something else right now.

[bobbiemcgee]

I'm with Coach Mack on this one. McGuire should not be allowed on a ML Baseball field in any capacity. Selig should just change his title to "Owner's Rep". McGuire's coaching of Holliday put him in a slump last year, so he's lousy at that too.

[_LH]

I'm with Coach Mack on this one. McGuire should not be allowed on a ML Baseball field in any capacity. Selig should just change his title to "Owner's Rep". McGuire's coaching of Holliday put him in a slump last year, so he's lousy at that too.

Why? Is McGwire banned by MLB like Rose? No. Did he break MLB rules when he was a player? No. I see no reason not to allow him to be on the field as a coach or even as a player if LaRussa wants to use him as a pinch hitter. MLB has no problem with A-Rod playing every week.

[Frank D.]

After reading this thread, I just had to interject and state that LH is either 1) ignoring the evidence that McGuire did steroids prior to his admission, which posters on this thread have already pointed out, or 2) He is using the word "evidence", when he should be using the word "proof".

I think it's the latter. I just went back and re-read LH's posts, inserting the word "proof" when he says "evidence" and his posts finally make sense. I think, LH, you do not know the difference between evidence an proof. That's my take.

[bobbiemcgee]

Why? Is McGwire banned by MLB like Rose? No. Did he break MLB rules when he was a player? No. I see no reason not to allow him to be on the field as a coach or even as a player if LaRussa wants to use him as a pinch hitter. MLB has no problem with A-Rod playing every week.

Exactly my point. There has never been any consequence for cheating as long as Selig has been around. They were running V8's when the field had a 6 banger. NO PROBLEM.

[_LH]

I think people here don't know the difference between assumptions and evidence.

[bobbiemcgee]

I think people here don't know the difference between assumptions and evidence.

Yeah, hire a boxing promoter who has fixed thousands of fights as a trainer. Same thing.

[_LH]

Yeah, hire a boxing promoter who has fixed thousands of fights as a trainer. Same thing.

I guess there is evidence then that Griffey, Jr. juiced as well.

[XUglow]

Did he break MLB rules when he was a player? No.

Actually, yes, he did break MLB rules. Steroids were specifically prohibited from baseball in 1991. They had been covered in a general ban since 1971. The players got away with it for a long time because their union successfully fought against testing. When people were caught red-handed with steroids, they were disciplined.

[_LH]

Actually, yes, he did break MLB rules. Steroids were specifically prohibited from baseball in 1991. They had been covered in a general ban since 1971. The players got away with it for a long time because their union successfully fought against testing. When people were caught red-handed with steroids, they were disciplined.

I must have missed when he was caught breaking this rule. Please provide a link and what MLB did to him.

[Raoul Duke]

god you're a ****ing idiot.

[_LH]

god you're a ****ing idiot.

Where's you link smart@ss.

[XUglow]

I must have missed when he was caught breaking this rule. Please provide a link and what MLB did to him.

Did I say he was caught? I said that he broke a rule.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I think people here don't know the difference between assumptions and evidence.

I agree with you somewhat on this point. Its unfair some clean players will be tainted with steroids accusations because of the era and I am quick not to jump the gun.

However I can see the other side of the argument.

Lets say Barry Bonds worked out naturally to increase his jersey size from a size 42 to a 52. And that working out also helped him gain 30 pounds of pure muscle.
BUT:
1) how do we explain his head growing from a size 7 and 1/8 to 7 and 3/4?

2)Or his feet growing from a size 10.5 to 13?

I think its fair we can make the assumption that BB has been using HGH.

The way players beat the steroids tests now is by using a combination of HGH and steroids. Using HGH, one can use a lower amount of steroids that would be undetectable under modern steroid testing. Since there is no definitive test for HGH, and the fact they can't/don't test for it in the majors or anywhere else, the situation is hardly under control. As the chemists continue to be one step ahead of the testing, this may be a never ending cycle. Looking at the amount of players that have been caught and seeing how one of baseball's "golden Boys" ARod has been caught, it is probably just the tip of the iceberg

[XU 87]

I just can't believe that McGwire admitted to a crime that he didn't commit. What an idiot.

[xeus]

Do you find it strange that McGwire admitted to using steroids when there was "no evidence" that he was using steroids?


He never admitted it until he wanted to coach, so no.

LH, I think it's cute that you call XU 87 "coach".

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Actually, yes, he did break MLB rules. Steroids were specifically prohibited from baseball in 1991. They had been covered in a general ban since 1971. The players got away with it for a long time because their union successfully fought against testing. When people were caught red-handed with steroids, they were disciplined.

He not only broke MLB Rules...Steroids are illegal in the US unless its medically permitted.

You're right. The union got too powerful.

[chico]

I am such an idiot. I can't believe it. Why anyone ever listens to or responds to me is beyond me.

Where is your evidence that anyone has responded?

It is my assumption that the real lh is Carl Everett. But I have no evidence to support this.

[chico]

LH, I think it's cute that you call XU 87 "coach".

Just don't call him "chief"

[_LH]

I agree with you somewhat on this point. Its unfair some clean players will be tainted with steroids accusations because of the era and I am quick not to jump the gun.

However I can see the other side of the argument.

Lets say Barry Bonds worked out naturally to increase his jersey size from a size 42 to a 52. And that working out also helped him gain 30 pounds of pure muscle.
BUT:
1) how do we explain his head growing from a size 7 and 1/8 to 7 and 3/4?

2)Or his feet growing from a size 10.5 to 13?

I think its fair we can make the assumption that BB has been using HGH.

The way players beat the steroids tests now is by using a combination of HGH and steroids. Using HGH, one can use a lower amount of steroids that would be undetectable under modern steroid testing. Since there is no definitive test for HGH, and the fact they can't/don't test for it in the majors or anywhere else, the situation is hardly under control. As the chemists continue to be one step ahead of the testing, this may be a never ending cycle. Looking at the amount of players that have been caught and seeing how one of baseball's "golden Boys" ARod has been caught, it is probably just the tip of the iceberg

It fair to assume. I have no problem with that. I assume Griffey, Jr. used roids as well based on his increased production in the 96 and 97 seasons.

[_LH]

I just can't believe that McGwire admitted to a crime that he didn't commit. What an idiot.

When did he say he did not commit the crime?

[_LH]

Did I say he was caught? I said that he broke a rule.

Okay, what was MLB's punishment for breaking this rule?

[xeus]

Okay, what was MLB's punishment for breaking this rule?

He was ostracized and no one liked him. (No offense.)

[_LH]

He was ostracized and no one liked him. (No offense.)

Any real answers to my question?

[xeus]

Any real answers to my question?

Any real questions?

[_LH]

Okay, what was MLB's punishment for breaking this rule?

Yes, see above.

[bobbiemcgee]

McGwire Admits the Obvious (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4816607)

I don't know why he would apologize to Selig or La Russa. They knew the whole time. LaRussa blames the Player's Union since neither had the gonads to blow the whistle.

[bobbiemcgee]

Q. When did you first learn of Mark using steroids?
A. Yesterday, when he called me.

CHILD, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[chico]

Any real answers to my question?

We have all the answers but you keep changing the questions.

[_LH]

We have all the answers but you keep changing the questions.

Wrong. No one has answered this question:

Okay, what was MLB's punishment for breaking this rule?

[Raoul Duke]

There is no evidence that OJ killed his wife and her lover.

[ChicagoX]

Wrong. No one has answered this question:

Okay, what was MLB's punishment for breaking this rule?

LH, players caught with illegal substances (including steroids) faced permanent expulsion from the league as one possible punishment. Please see Fay Vincent's 1991 memo... http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=1

Bud Selig reiterated this in 1997... http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1997&num=1

[XUglow]

Wrong. No one has answered this question:

Okay, what was MLB's punishment for breaking this rule?

Specifically, it calls for a temporary or permanent ban of players that violate the provision. Vida Blue and Willie Wilson, to name two, were suspended for long stretches for violating the rule. Their offense was cocaine, but steroid use was to be treated the same way.

[_LH]

LH, players caught with illegal substances (including steroids) faced permanent expulsion from the league was one possible punishment. Please see Fay Vincent's 1991 memo... http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=1

So when was somone caught under this rule for steroids? Could they be reinstated like Steve Howe?

Other than being caught phsically with these illegal substances, how did they enforce this rule?

Is this rule still in effect of does the 2003 steroid ban replace it?

[ChicagoX]

So when was somone caught under this rule? Could they be reinstated like Steve Howe?

Other than being caught phsically with these illegal substances, how did they enforce this rule?

Clearly these rules were not well enforced, particularly with steroids. There was no policy for testing for steroids because the Players Union had failed to collectively bargain for it. It was considered a privacy issue for the union, which we all know was BS. In order to be caught, you had to have the drugs on you, otherwise there was no way of being reprimanded.

I just thought I'd answer your question about what the punishment was for players caught using steroids, which was considered illegal even though it was not tested for and therefore VERY poorly enforced. Hope I cleared this up for you.

[_LH]

Thanks. According to paragraph 7, first time offenders that admit or test positive (McGwire fits here) are allowed to complete EAP and no other punishment is handed down.

Good to know.

[xeus]

Thanks. According to paragraph 7, first time offenders that admit or test positive (McGwire fits here) are allowed to complete EAP and no other punishment is handed down.



Do you really think McGwire counts a "first time offender"? He basically admitted to using steroids over the course of an entire decade. If he had "admitted" after the first time he used steroids, he might fit in that description. But he didn't - he went on to use steroids many many times thereafter.

I'd argue his subsequent use precludes him from enjoying the leniency afforded the "first time offenders".

[_LH]

His admission was the FIRST recorded so, yes he fist under paragraph 7 and would get EAP. Thanks.

[xeus]

His admission was the FIRST recorded so, yes he fist under paragraph 7 and would get EAP. Thanks.

He admitted to more than one violation of the policy. Therefore, he had "second and subsequent violations" of the policy. Did you read the whole paragraph?

[XU 87]

I think MHettel agreed with LH and claimed that there was no evidence that McGwire took steroids. I think he should chime in here.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I find it hilarious that McGwire thinks performance enhancing drugs did not enhance his performance.

Next is he going to claim that strength, size, hand-eye coordination, and faster reaction time don't factor into homerun balls either?

[bobbiemcgee]

His admission was the FIRST recorded so, yes he fist under paragraph 7 and would get EAP. Thanks.

Now that he's admitted it, he should be suspended from Baseball for a year like Howe. Who sez he still isn't juicing anyway?

[SixFig]

Lets pray that Pujols isn't on it either.

[drudy23]

I just watched his interview with Bob Ley. To me, he seemed very smug and arrogant. And i find it very laughable that he thinks taking steroids didn't give him a performance boost. There was still question dodging and an unwillingness to tell the complete truth.

Just like A-Rod, journalists are going to take this interview, disect it, and prove him wrong on many of the things he said. And then he'll have to answers the questions all over again. When will they learn? He's not being COMPLETELY honest...you can tell.

And yes, don't be surprised in Pujols' name comes up eventually. I have no faith that it won't.

[BandAid]

100 ;)

[Xpectations]

I had almost forgotten how incredibly entertaining LH's contributions could be. Almost.

[Kahns Krazy]

His admission was the FIRST recorded so, yes he fist under paragraph 7 and would get EAP. Thanks.


"Thanks", like you're the spokesman for the commissioner's office. That's rich. You're now an expert on the rule you argued didn't exist yesterday?

[bobbiemcgee]

Remember the Little League kid who was 14 playing with the 12 yr olds in the Little League World Series? He CHEATED!!! ... and his team forfeited all the games.....same deal.

[_LH]

He admitted to more than one violation of the policy. Therefore, he had "second and subsequent violations" of the policy. Did you read the whole paragraph?

It is all lumped under one admission and a first admission. He would get employee assistance. Thanks.

[_LH]

"Thanks", like you're the spokesman for the commissioner's office. That's rich. You're now an expert on the rule you argued didn't exist yesterday?

Well since the commissioners office nor anyone else in baseball enforced any rules with regards to steroid use until 2003, it all is meaningless anyway. Thanks for playing.

[nuts4xu]

It is all lumped under one admission and a first admission. He would get employee assistance. Thanks.

It is funny to see LH challenge lawyers on the board on the subject of contract law.

[chico]

It is all lumped under one admission and a first admission. He would get employee assistance. Thanks.

If I ever go on a crime spree I'm making sure I only admit to it once.

[_LH]

It is funny to see LH challenge lawyers on the board on the subject of contract law.

Funny that I'm right.

[Xpectations]

If I ever go on a crime spree I'm making sure I only admit to it once.

Better yet, just ensure that LH is on the jury.

[_LH]

If I ever go on a crime spree I'm making sure I only admit to it once.

Why would you admit it at all?

[BandAid]

I just watched his interview with Bob Ley. To me, he seemed very smug and arrogant. And i find it very laughable that he thinks taking steroids didn't give him a performance boost. There was still question dodging and an unwillingness to tell the complete truth.

Just like A-Rod, journalists are going to take this interview, disect it, and prove him wrong on many of the things he said. And then he'll have to answers the questions all over again. When will they learn? He's not being COMPLETELY honest...you can tell.

And yes, don't be surprised in Pujols' name comes up eventually. I have no faith that it won't.

That was an odd interview with Ley. I'm not sure I got smug/arrogatn as much as I saw joy in relief. Like a kid fessing up to something, or like the first pass after being constipated.

He is an idiot if he truly thinks the enhancers didn't enhance.

The only time he seemed uncomfortable/disturbed during the interview was when they talked about Jose Canseco...I get uncomfortable talking about Jose Canseco.

I don't know how I would react if Griffey and/or Pujols were ever seriously tied to steroids. They seem to be the last legitimate boppers. Howard as well, although I consider him to be after the steroid/homerun craze.

[_LH]

That was an odd interview with Ley. I'm not sure I got smug/arrogatn as much as I saw joy in relief. Like a kid fessing up to something, or like the first pass after being constipated.

He is an idiot if he truly thinks the enhancers didn't enhance.

The only time he seemed uncomfortable/disturbed during the interview was when they talked about Jose Canseco...I get uncomfortable talking about Jose Canseco.

I don't know how I would react if Griffey and/or Pujols were ever seriously tied to steroids. They seem to be the last legitimate boppers. Howard as well, although I consider him to be after the steroid/homerun craze.

Do you think the game is free of roids, HGH or other PED's today?

[BandAid]

Do you think the game is free of roids, HGH or other PED's today?

Not by a long shot, but those guys in particular seem the most upright. That's why I was never scandalized by Manny or Papi getting "caught". These drugs seem more prevalent now among minor leaguers trying to break into the bigs, as if they think they need just that extra "push".

[_LH]

I'd say there is a good chance that many of today's All Stars are taking something purists would frown upon. Curious though that no one is getting close to hitting 60 homers in a season.

[Kahns Krazy]

I'd say there is a good chance that many of today's All Stars are taking something purists would frown upon. Curious though that no one is getting close to hitting 60 homers in a season.

Not curious. Evidence.

[_LH]

Not even close to evidence but it is curious that players STILL on the juice aren't hitting 60 homers a year.

[BandAid]

Not even close to evidence but it is curious that players STILL on the juice aren't hitting 60 homers a year.

Could be a different type of steroid, or maybe simly lower levels. The jig is up for hulk-like creatures stomping on bases. So the users got smarter and consciously maintain smaller physiques (sp).

[_LH]

I seriously doubt both. Baseball players have historically always found ways to gain a competitive advantage from steroids to greenies to cocaine to corking bats, to using spit balls to tipping off pitches, etc.

There will always be a new drug out there that players will turn to but I find it strange that no one is getting close to 60 homers. How in the world did Griffey hit 56 two years in a row without roids?

[BandAid]

There will always be a new drug out there that players will turn to but I find it strange that no one is getting close to 60 homers. How in the world did Griffey hit 56 two years in a row without roids?

God given talent and an amazing baseball heritage? How did Maris hit 61? Or Ruth hit 60 in even fewer games?

[Kahns Krazy]

God given talent and an amazing baseball heritage?

And a sweet, sweet swing.

[chico]

Other factors for the home run binge include smaller ballparks and a more tightly wound ball. The small parks are still around for the most part, but some newer parks are not home run havens - Comerica, Citi and whatever they call the new one in San Diego come to mind.

And just out of curiosity, if nobody hitting homers like they used to is not evidence then what is your definition of "evidence?"

[chico]

There will always be a new drug out there that players will turn to but I find it strange that no one is getting close to 60 homers. How in the world did Griffey hit 56 two years in a row without roids?

How did Babe Ruth hit 60 and 54 over two years? Maybe they were just great players.

[_LH]

Bull.

Where were those numbers for Griffey prior to or after those two seasons?

[_LH]

Other factors for the home run binge include smaller ballparks and a more tightly wound ball. The small parks are still around for the most part, but some newer parks are not home run havens - Comerica, Citi and whatever they call the new one in San Diego come to mind.

And just out of curiosity, if nobody hitting homers like they used to is not evidence then what is your definition of "evidence?"

Evidence of what? Players are still juicing but no one has hit over 60 since Bonds.

[XU 87]

LH, is there any evidence that Bonds took steroids?

And I would like to for you to answer Chico's question. What is your defintion of evidence?

[_LH]

I have not looked into Bonds's situation. What do you think?

[chico]

Evidence of what? Players are still juicing but no one has hit over 60 since Bonds.

The word "Evidence" - what is your definition of this word?

[XU 87]

I have not looked into Bonds's situation. What do you think?

You're kidding, right?

How about Manson? Do you think he was guilty?

[_LH]

Between 1960 and 1989 there were only three times where a player hit 50 or more homers.

Since they started testing for roids in 2003, there have been FIVE. Why have there been 5 guys with 50 or more homeruns in a four year time frame (2005-09) and only three between 1960 and 1989?

[_LH]

You're kidding, right?

How about Manson? Do you think he was guilty?

What do you think 87?

My definition of evidence can be found in any dictionary.

[chico]

My definition of evidence can be found in any dictionary.

Okay, then just write that definition down in your response so we know which definition you're using. I realize it entails actually answering a question, but what the heck.

[_LH]

Don't you have a dictionary lying around or access to an internet dictionary? Look it up. My definition is the same.

[chico]

Don't you have a dictionary lying around or access to an internet dictionary? Look it up. My definition is the same.

No I don't - answer the question please. For once do something yourself instead of asking others. Come on, I know you can do it. I have faith in you. It will be challenging, I know, but nothing worthwhile in life comes easy.

[_LH]

I find it strange that you have access to XH but not to an online dictionary.

[Raoul Duke]

LH's problem* is that he doesn't understand the difference between direct and circumstantial evidence.




*Actually, LH has many problems.

[chico]

I find it strange that you can't honor my humble request. If you can't write me out a definition I can only assume that you don't know what the definition is - and I have your unwillingness to post the definition as evidence.

[_LH]

No. Guys on this board don't know the difference between assuptions and evidence.

[_LH]

I find it strange that you can't honor my humble request. If you can't write me out a definition I can only assume that you don't know what the definition is - and I have your unwillingness to post the definition as evidence.

I find it strange that you don't understand that my definition is the same that you will find in the dictionary.

[chico]

So what is the difference. Enlighten us.

[_LH]

Between 1960 and 1989 there were only three times where a player hit 50 or more homers.

Since they started testing for roids in 2003, there have been 5. Why have there been 5 guys with 50 or more homeruns in a four year time frame (2005-09) and only three between 1960 and 1989?

[Raoul Duke]

No. Guys on this board don't know the difference between assuptions and evidence.

Now you're just making up words.

[_LH]

Now you're just making up words.

:)

[chico]

I find it strange that you don't understand that my definition is the same that you will find in the dictionary.

Which dictionary - there are several different ones out there. So please just type out the one that you are using and it will clear up any confusion.

[_LH]

Anyone you want is fine by me Chico.

[chico]

Anyone you want is fine by me Chico.

As I don't have one please provide me with one you have.

[bobbiemcgee]

http://www.complex.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/roids_mcgwire.jpg

There is absolutely no evidence he was ever on 'roids.....and BEARS don't shit in the woods!!

[_LH]

So people can't get bigger over time through age and lifting weights?

[bobbiemcgee]

http://images.wikia.com/openserving/sports/images/thumb/4/42/Markandro.jpg/330px-Markandro.jpg

Sure

[_LH]

Show me a picture of Griffey in 1989 next to a picture of him in 2009.

[XU 87]

So people can't get bigger over time through age and lifting weights?

So do you think McGwire was lying about taking steroids?

[TheDanimal]

In hopes of ending the whole "evidence" semantics argument, anything offered in an attempt to induce a conclusion is evidence. That one may not find the evidence credible, beyond doubt, or dispositive of the issue at hand does not strip the information offered from its status as evidence. Thus, everyone is, indeed, offering evidence. It is whether that evidence clearly leads to a conclusion of guilt or of certain action that is up for debate, not classification of the pictures and stats as evidence.

[_LH]

In hopes of ending the whole "evidence" semantics argument, anything offered in an attempt to induce a conclusion is evidence. That one may not find the evidence credible, beyond doubt, or dispositive of the issue at hand does not strip the information offered from its status as evidence. Thus, everyone is, indeed, offering evidence. It is whether that evidence clearly leads to a conclusion of guilt or of certain action that is up for debate, not classification of the pictures and stats as evidence.

Pointing to increased homeruns is not evidence of steroid use as many, many other factors have to be considered.

[_LH]

So do you think McGwire was lying about taking steroids?

Where did I say that. People can get bigger natually though right?

[TheDanimal]

Show me a picture of Griffey in 1989 next to a picture of him in 2009.

http://www.integratedbrand.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ken-griffey-jr.bmp
http://www.fastcharacters.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/famous-cartoon-character-fat-albert.jpg

[TheDanimal]

Pointing to increased homeruns is not evidence of steroid use as many, many other factors have to be considered.

Pointing to the stats is presenting evidence. Since many factors have to be considered it means it is not "conclusive" or "dispositive" evidence. It does not have to conclusively prove a point to be "evidence"

[_LH]

Pointing to the stats is presenting evidence. Since many factors have to be considered it means it is not "conclusive" or "dispositive" evidence. It does not have to conclusively prove a point to be "evidence"

Fair enough. If you want me to say that there was no credible, conclusive or dispositive evidence instead, that's fine too.

Prior to his admission, there was no credible, conclusive or dispositive evidence McGwire used steroids.

[XU 87]

Where did I say that. People can get bigger natually though right?

Don't answer a question with a question. Do you think McGwire was lying about taking steroids?

[Raoul Duke]

Wow. I think we've just had an LH breakthrough.

Well done, the Danimal.

[_LH]

Why are you asking?

Is it impossible for a person to get bigger naturally?

[TheDanimal]

Fair enough. If you want me to say that there was no credible, conclusive or dispositive evidence instead, that's fine too.

Prior to his admission, there was no credible, conclusive or dispositive evidence McGwire used steroids.

That is a very defensible statement, and I may even agree. I was just out to clear up the evidence definition arguments that were going back and forth. The proper debate is whether the evidence prior to the admission was conclusive, and I think that is very much up for argument.

[_LH]

So, between 1960 and 1989 there were only three times where a player hit 50 or more homers.

Since they started testing for roids in 2003, there have been 5. Why have there been 5 guys with 50 or more homeruns in a four year time frame (2005-09) and only three between 1960 and 1989?

[XU 87]

Prior to his admission, there was no credible, conclusive or dispositive evidence McGwire used steroids.


If that's the case, what a dumbass McGwire is for admitting to this.

[_LH]

If that's the case, what a dumbass McGwire is for admitting to this.

As we already discussed, he more than likely did so because he was going to be coaching this summer and in front of the media each day. He made his admission so he would not be hounded by the press and a distraction to his team. You might have seen something about that on ESPN.

[TheDanimal]

I'm just waiting for the balloon boy dad to step in and say that McGwire does not have a good grasp of English and only admitted to it in order to avoid deportation.

[XU 87]

As we already discussed, he more than likely did so because he was going to be coaching this summer and in front of the media each day. He made his admission so he would not be hounded by the press and a distraction to his team. You might have seen something about that on ESPN.

So are you saying that he lied about it so he could start coaching?

[_LH]

I'm just waiting for the balloon boy dad to step in and say that McGwuire does not have a good grasp of English and only admitted to it in order to avoid deportation.

Maybe he admitted it to serve as a distraction. I have heard police suspect McGwire of being the killer of OJ's wife.

[_LH]

So are you saying that he lied about it so he could start coaching?

Lied about what?

When did he lie?

[_LH]

I'm just waiting for the balloon boy dad to step in and say that McGwuire does not have a good grasp of English and only admitted to it in order to avoid deportation.

I have heard that there were hair samples found underneath Giants Stadium that match McGwire and police think they found Hoffa buried near the hair samples.

[XU 87]

Lied about what?

When did he lie?

What grade are you in?

[_LH]

What grade are you in?

Answer my questions.

[XU 87]

Answer my questions.

Only after you tell me what grade you're in.

[_LH]

I graduated with a BA in 1997 from XU.

[XU 87]

I graduated with a BA in 1997 from XU.

In what? Abnormal psychology?

[_LH]

Answer my questions.

[XU 87]

Answer my questions.

Didn't anyone at Xavier ever tell you that it is improper ettiquette to answer a question with a question?

[_LH]

"Answer my questions." is not a question.

[XU 87]

Ok, you answer mine first since I asked it first.

Do you think that Mark McGwire was lying when he said he took steroids?

If you don't understand the question, let me know and I will rephrase the question for you so you can understand it.

[Kahns Krazy]

Fair enough. If you want me to say that there was no credible, conclusive or dispositive evidence instead, that's fine too.

Prior to his admission, there was no credible, conclusive or dispositive evidence McGwire used steroids.

You would have to qualify this with "that I was aware of". Canseco's experience of injecting steroids into McGwire's ass is indeed conclusive evidence of McGwire's steroid use. Just because you are not aware of something does not mean it does not exist.

[_LH]

Why would I think he was lying when he admitted using roids?

[_LH]

You would have to qualify this with "that I was aware of". Canseco's experience of injecting steroids into McGwire's ass is indeed conclusive evidence of McGwire's steroid use. Just because you are not aware of something does not mean it does not exist.

Wrong. Canseco is a known liar.

[XU 87]

Why would I think he was lying when he admitted using roids?

Because your stupid?

[ChicagoX]

Wrong. Canseco is a known liar.

So is Mark McGwire.

[waggy]

Yeah, but McGwire is sensitive - he cries when he lies.

[_LH]

Because your stupid?

When did I say I think that he was lying when he made his admission?

[_LH]

So is Mark McGwire.

How so?

[XUglow]

So, between 1960 and 1989 there were only three times where a player hit 50 or more homers.

Since they started testing for roids in 2003, there have been 5. Why have there been 5 guys with 50 or more homeruns in a four year time frame (2005-09) and only three between 1960 and 1989?

Smaller ballparks. For the record, 2005-09 if 5 seasons.

[_LH]

Smaller ballparks. For the record, 2005-09 if 5 seasons.

That's the only reason? There were some small parks still in use for most of the 1960's.

[chico]

Wrong. Canseco is a known liar.

How so?

[_LH]

How so?

Read his "book".

[chico]

Read his "book".

what in his book is a lie?

[_LH]

what in his book is a lie?

About 90% of it.

[chico]

About 90% of it.

What evidence do you have that he's lying?

[_LH]

The same that you have that he is not lying.

[Kahns Krazy]

Wrong. Canseco is a known liar.

Much of Canseco's "known lies" are proving true. Regardless, if he had lied about everything in his entire life, his experience injecting Mac with steroids is conclusive evidence, even if he never speaks of it. Your ignorance of it does not make it non-existent, which is thankfully also true for the rest of the rational world.

[ChicagoX]

Can one of the mods lock this thread? It's going nowhere and is only giving LH the opportunity to annoy the living hell out of everyone...again.

[XUglow]

That's the only reason? There were some small parks still in use for most of the 1960's.

In the 60's, pitchers mounds were 16" to 20" tall. They were reduced to 10.5" in 1969.

[_LH]

Much of Canseco's "known lies" are proving true. Regardless, if he had lied about everything in his entire life, his experience injecting Mac with steroids is conclusive evidence, even if he never speaks of it. Your ignorance of it does not make it non-existent, which is thankfully also true for the rest of the rational world.

Some have been proven true but much of what is says are lies. His claims against McGwire are far from conclusive evidence but nice try.

[XUglow]

Can one of the mods lock this thread? It's going nowhere and is only giving LH the opportunity to annoy the living hell out of everyone...again.

How about deleting the thread completely?

[_LH]

Can one of the mods lock this thread? It's going nowhere and is only giving LH the opportunity to annoy the living hell out of everyone...again.

If you don't like the discussion simply leave the thread.

[BandAid]

200 :p

[BandAid]

Bull.

Where were those numbers for Griffey prior to or after those two seasons?


Ken Griffey Jr.
Year___AB___HR
1996___545__49
1997___608__56
1998___633__56
1999___606__48
2000___520__40

These were Griffey's best years, from age 26-30. They are bookended on either side by injury plagued seasons. He hit 40+ home runs twice before 1995 (in '93 and strike-shortened '94), and never again after 2000. His stats actually follow the typical growth and decline of a player. Except he was marred with injuries in the second half of his prime (ages 31-34).

Differences in the above 5 years.
Under 50 in '96: 50 less at bats than '97 and '98
Decline in 1999: the inaugural year for Safeco Field in Seattle, which is very spacious.
Decline in 2000: nearly 100 less at bats.

I don't see any reason to assume Griffey wasn't clean.

[Kahns Krazy]

Some have been proven true but much of what is says are lies. His claims against McGwire are far from conclusive evidence but nice try.

There is no evidence that much of what he says is lies.

[X-band '01]

http://www.integratedbrand.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ken-griffey-jr.bmp
http://www.fastcharacters.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/famous-cartoon-character-fat-albert.jpg

He said Ken Griffey Jr., not Ron Rollerson.

[SixFig]

Damn what a beautiful swing

http://www.integratedbrand.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ken-griffey-jr.bmp

[_LH]

There is no evidence that much of what he says is lies.

Yes there is.

[_LH]

Ken Griffey Jr.
Year___AB___HR
1996___545__49
1997___608__56
1998___633__56
1999___606__48
2000___520__40

These were Griffey's best years, from age 26-30. They are bookended on either side by injury plagued seasons. He hit 40+ home runs twice before 1995 (in '93 and strike-shortened '94), and never again after 2000. His stats actually follow the typical growth and decline of a player. Except he was marred with injuries in the second half of his prime (ages 31-34).

Differences in the above 5 years.
Under 50 in '96: 50 less at bats than '97 and '98
Decline in 1999: the inaugural year for Safeco Field in Seattle, which is very spacious.
Decline in 2000: nearly 100 less at bats.

I don't see any reason to assume Griffey wasn't clean.

Griffey played 7 seasons before the roid era and never hit more than 45 homers and most years struggled to get to the mid 30's and then for a 4 season stretch that happened to be right in the heart of the steroid era, Griffey had his most productive homerun years of his career. Hmmmmm.

[BandAid]

Griffey played 7 seasons before the roid era and never hit more than 45 homers and most years struggled to get to the mid 30's and then for a 4 season stretch that happened to be right in the heart of the steroid era, Griffey had his most productive homerun years of his career. Hmmmmm.

I respectfully disagree. 3 points:

1. Many will argue his increase in production is quite normal for a player entering his prime, which is quite different than McGwire's or Bond's productivity increasing into their late 30s and even early 40s.

2. McGwire says he took steroids primarily to help him recover from and avoid injuries. Ken Griffey Jr. had half of his prime years derailed by injuries.

3. The eyeball test. While Big Mac and Bonds jumped head and chest sizes, Griffey jumped waist sizes (as comically depicted above). Yes, Griffey was much skinnier as a rookie, but so was John Kruk.

[_LH]

I respectfully disagree. 3 points:

1. Many will argue his increase in production is quite normal for a player entering his prime, which is quite different than McGwire's or Bond's productivity increasing into their late 30s and even early 40s.

2. McGwire says he took steroids primarily to help him recover from and avoid injuries. Ken Griffey Jr. had half of his prime years derailed by injuries.

3. The eyeball test. While Big Mac and Bonds jumped head and chest sizes, Griffey jumped waist sizes (as comically depicted above). Yes, Griffey was much skinnier as a rookie, but so was John Kruk.

You can disagree all you want but the evidence suggests that Griffey had a 4 year stretch that was his best of his career right in the middle of the steroid era. Some increased production is quite normal but his homer numbers exploded in a tight 4 year period which is evidence something else was going on.

For the record, I don't think Griffey took roids but I also would not be surprised to find out he did because if you believe Canseco, everyone was doing them.

[nuts4xu]

I will take a wild guess that LH lives alone, hasn't had a meaningful relationship with a woman, and struggles to maintain friends for more than a few weeks.

Who in their right mind would want to spend an ounce of time with this tortured, misguided, and stubborn shell of a human being?

Not me. That is for sure. And I get along with everyone, I have to in my line of work.

[_LH]

I will take a wild guess that LH lives alone, hasn't had a meaningful relationship with a woman, and struggles to maintain friends for more than a few weeks.

Who in their right mind would want to spend an ounce of time with this tortured, misguided, and stubborn shell of a human being?

Not me. That is for sure. And I get along with everyone, I have to in my line of work.

Funny. I have the same thoughts about your life.

[XU 87]

You can disagree all you want but the evidence suggests that Griffey had a 4 year stretch that was his best of his career right in the middle of the steroid era. Some increased production is quite normal but his homer numbers exploded in a tight 4 year period which is evidence something else was going on.

For the record, I don't think Griffey took roids but I also would not be surprised to find out he did because if you believe Canseco, everyone was doing them.

So let me get this straight. You believe that there is no evidence that McGwire used steroids but there is evidence that Griffey used steroids?

[_LH]

So let me get this straight. You believe that there is no evidence that McGwire used steroids but there is evidence that Griffey used steroids?

That's not what I said.

[XU 87]

That's not what I said.

You have repeatedly argued that there was evidence that McGwire used steroids. But now you're arguing that Griffey's production during the steroid era is evidence that he used steroids.

So yes, that is what you said.

[_LH]

No, that is not what I said. Read it again, genius.

[XU 87]

No, that is not what I said. .

Nope, that's what you said.

[_LH]

Incorrect.

I wrote:

"which is evidence something else was going on.

For the record, I don't think Griffey took roids but I also would not be surprised to find out he did because if you believe Canseco, everyone was doing them."

[xeus]

No, that is not what I said. Read it again, genious.

There are some words, if you're going to use them, that you really shouldn't misspell.

[_LH]

Oh my, I had a typo on a message board. :rolleyes:

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

This thread is absolute gold. Always gives me a laugh from page 4 on. Dare I say it? I miss _LH and his rowdy ways....

[XU 87]

I'm just shocked that LH thinks Griffey used steroids.

[Kahns Krazy]

There is no evidence that LH thinks.

[XU 87]

There is no evidence that LH thinks.

That's not what I said. But nice try.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

There is no evidence that LH thinks.


That's not what I said. But nice try.

Incorrect. McGwire admitted to lying about using steroids, which he did not do, in an attempt to prove Jose Canseco's point right in his book that Canseco was clearly lying about all in an effort to get Ken Griffey Jr to admit to using steroids while I continue to create the longest run on sentence in the history of Xavier Hoops in an effort to filibuster my initial point on a technicality that was unequivocally wrong from the start hoping that you guys would forget that I was wrong in the first place

Thanks
Nice Try
Sorry

[Kahns Krazy]

Yup. It is. This has been covered.

[xu95]

Yup. It is. This has been covered.

That's what she said.

[XU 87]

Yup. It is. This has been covered.

There is no evidence that this issue has been covered. Nice try, genius.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

There is no evidence that this issue has been covered. Nice try, genius.

There is no evidence that the issue hasn't been covered. Sorry

[GoMuskies]

Was anyone wondering whether Charlie Sheen took steroids for his role in Major League? #attentionwhore

[XU 87]

Was anyone wondering whether Charlie Sheen took steroids for his role in Major League? #attentionwhore

There is no evidence that Sheen took steroids. He just admitted that because he wants to be the Cleveland pitching coach.

[GoMuskies]

Wrong

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

You can disagree all you want but the evidence suggests that Griffey had a 4 year stretch that was his best of his career right in the middle of the steroid era. Some increased production is quite normal but his homer numbers exploded in a tight 4 year period which is evidence something else was going on.

For the record, I don't think Griffey took roids but I also would not be surprised to find out he did because if you believe Canseco, everyone was doing them.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here? Are you implying that McGwire didn't take steroids so he lied about admitting to taking PED's and Griffey did? Are you saying they both did? Are you saying they both didn't?

[_LH]

I don't understand what you are trying to say here?

Is that a question?

[Kahns Krazy]

22 minutes.

#offseasonstalking

[_LH]

22 minutes.

#offseasonstalking

Try 10 months.

#obsessedwithLH