You Decide 2008

[Snipe]

It is down to 2 candidate on both sides.

[OX09]

Wait...what happened to Stoney? He was so popular in the last poll...

[Snipe]

Stoney usually makes a late surge.

[The Artist]

Could have made it a little more difficult to tell the political party of the poll maker...

[Lloyd Christmas]

You forgot a fifth choice:

None of the above.

[ATL Muskie]

I like how Snipe pulls a Frank Luntz and throws in "Hussein" for Obama, but then he votes for Romney the Mormon.

http://i4m.com/think/jpeg/mormon-translation-south-park.jpg

[Chris Knight]

Dum Dum Dum Dum Dum

[Snipe]

I like how Snipe pulls a Frank Luntz and throws in "Hussein" for Obama, but then he votes for Romney the Mormon.



I have nothing against Barack Hussein Obama, at least not on a personal level. I don't know anything about his faith either. I know a few Mormons, and I don't have a problem with them either. Good people. I am no bigot. I don't let a person's faith get in the way of my vote. My problem with Obama would be on the issues.

I think everyone should inform themselves on the issues and get above the politics of personal destruction.

[Snipe]

Could have made it a little more difficult to tell the political party of the poll maker...

I am registered to a political party, but I can assure you it isn't the Republican Party. I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Republican Party.

I like Romney because I think he could do the best job on economic issues.

[The Artist]

I have nothing against Barack Hussein Obama, at least not on a personal level. I don't know anything about his faith either. I know a few Mormons, and I don't have a problem with them either. Good people. I am no bigot. I don't let a person's faith get in the way of my vote. My problem with Obama would be on the issues.

I think everyone should inform themselves on the issues and get above the politics of personal destruction.

You appear to have fallen victim to the email scam about Obama being Muslim, eh?

Edit: And in that case, why the inclusion of the middle name for him and only him..hmmmmmm?

[American X]

McCain? Really? These are Republicans voting for McCain? Do they have memories beyond the last five minutes?

I get it for single issue Iraq/War on Terror voters, but I'm a bit flabbergasted.

[Snipe]

You appear to have fallen victim to the email scam about Obama being Muslim, eh?

Edit: And in that case, why the inclusion of the middle name for him and only him..hmmmmmm?

Like Bob Kerry, I think his middle name is an asset to the man. I really don't care about his faith. If you want next time I will include all their middle names.

[Snipe]

McCain? Really? These are Republicans voting for McCain? Do they have memories beyond the last five minutes?

I get it for single issue Iraq/War on Terror voters, but I'm a bit flabbergasted.

Ever since we won the war in Iraq McCain has surged in the polls.

[Billy]

Ron Paul has not dropped out yet. I vote for him.

[XU 87]

I don't recall the democrats having any problem calling George Bush I "George Herbert Walker Bush" during the 1988 election.

But at least the biggest phony this side of Hillary dropped out today- John Edwards.

[ATL Muskie]

I don't recall the democrats having any problem calling George Bush I "George Herbert Walker Bush" during the 1988 election.

Oh come on. It's fairly obvious why conservatives "casually" throw Hussein in there for Obama, and I say this as someone who doesn't even support Obama. Plant that seed......

[XU 87]

It's not just conservatives who throw around his middle name. I think the Clinton campaign has tossed around his middle name a few times.

P.S. The next time you're in town, you and I should get together with our good friend Carlos the Jackal to educate him on "proper manners on message boards".

[ATL Muskie]

It's not just conservatives who throw around his middle name. I think the Clinton campaign has tossed around his middle name a few times.

That could be, I just haven't noticed it. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that though.

[Snipe]

That could be, I just haven't noticed it. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that though.


Bob Kerry was the first to do it.

It is his name.

[Stonebreaker]

I agree. How can ANYONE be blasted for using someone's full name. If he doesn't like it, change it.

Secondly, this just goes to show that politicians and pundits are more about show, than substance. I want to know how these wackjobs intend to fix immigration and social security (without hurting the economy.

[ATL Muskie]

I agree. How can ANYONE be blasted for using someone's full name. If he doesn't like it, change it.

Secondly, this just goes to show that politicians and pundits are more about show, than substance. I want to know how these wackjobs intend to fix immigration and social security (without hurting the economy.


Guys, you can't be serious. It's not a matter of using his full name, or even his not liking his full name. It's obvious opponents use his full name because it's HUSSEIN. Duh. No one would use it if it were Phil. People throw it out there to plant that seed in peoples' mind that he's somehow a filthy Muslim and he shares the same name as an evil dictator, much the same way people "mistakenly" mispronounce Obama as "Osama." It's just dirty tricks meant to deflect from the real issues at hand.

[Snipe]

I agree. How can ANYONE be blasted for using someone's full name. If he doesn't like it, change it.

Secondly, this just goes to show that politicians and pundits are more about show, than substance. I want to know how these wackjobs intend to fix immigration and social security (without hurting the economy.


Nobody is going to fix social security. Nobody has the courage, foresight and political capital. They system is broke and nobody can do anything about it.

The only thing that they will do is keep feeding the system until it hits the wall.

[blobfan]

I think everyone should inform themselves on the issues and get above the politics of personal destruction.

There are issues involved in this campaign? Real issues that affect our daily lives?

Wow. I must have missed that among all the posturing.

When did Hillary drop the Rodham?

[Chris Knight]

My girlfriend's mom (normally a reasonable woman) got the e-mail about Obama really being a puppet for the Islamic terrorrists in some kind of giant international conspiracy, etc. etc. and forwarded it to everyone she knew, completely convinced of its accuracy. I find it frightening that people are that gullible, but let's be honest about the "Osama" "Hussein" thing; the Muslim connection is just the only way the right wing media outlets can call atttention to his "otherness" without getting into a skin color/race debate, which they are loathe to do. With the "Hussein" "Osama" routine they still make it clear to their viewers that he's "not one of us" (white), but without having to worry about pissing off Jesse Jackson. Muslims are a way easier target in this country these days.

BTW, I'm not at all accusing anyone of this board of having these intentions; it's just my feeling that this is the reason why this e-mail forward is circulating, and the reason why we know Barack's middle name, but not McCain's.

[XU 87]

the Muslim connection is just the only way the right wing media outlets can call atttention to his "otherness" without getting into a skin color/race debate, which they are loathe to do.

Could you please identify all these "right wing media outlets". I'm sure Fox will be on your list, but I'm curious as to the others.

[Chris Knight]

FOX and the people who disseminate misinformation on the web (like the author of the e-mail forward). I could list some blogs for you, but they're pretty far out there. My point is that people actually take this stuff seriously (regardless of the source), and, as has been mentioned before, it's a way to plant the seed that "this guy can't be trusted". I just think that his connection to Islam is being used as a proxy for his skin color.

[Snipe]

I was making a joke when I did it Mr. Knight. To my knowledge, it was first brought up when Bob Kerry mentioned it. Bob Kerry was a democrat and a Congressman for a long time. He happened to bring it up during a press release where he endorsed Hillary Clinton.

Who has brought up race and the Muslim issue into the campaign? Democrats. Specifically Democrats like Hillary Clinton. Blame it on the right wing if you want but if you so desire I can point to substantive evidence that it is coming directly from your own party.

Face the facts. It isn't some evil right-wing conspiracy. It is dirty dealing democrats again using race as an issue to their own benefit. You need to get a grip on that.

Bill Clinton was the first Black President. At least when it was convenient.

[Stonebreaker]

FOX and the people who disseminate misinformation on the web (like the author of the e-mail forward). I could list some blogs for you, but they're pretty far out there. My point is that people actually take this stuff seriously (regardless of the source), and, as has been mentioned before, it's a way to plant the seed that "this guy can't be trusted". I just think that his connection to Islam is being used as a proxy for his skin color.

I think there only is one 'right wing media outlet' and it's FNC. It's not fair for the lefties, they only have CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS, Comedy Central, History Channel (how many shows do they need about global warming and the 'earth is dying'??), PBS, MTV (vote or die), Current, and the weather channel (I jest).

As far as radio goes, Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, and others do well, but it must be nice to have NPR as an 'unbiased' outlet (again, I jest). So much for the protection of free speech, as some dems would LOVE to limit talk radio for conservatives. What happened to a free market of ideas?
I understand the hatred of FNC, it must be hard not to have a monopoly anymore. Kinda like the other Xavier board......sucks to have people flocking to your competition in the world of information.

About the 'controversy' regarding Osama, uh, Obama. Who cares.....it's a little dig to try and associate him with our archenemy. All's fair in love and politics.

[Snipe]

Interesting study on media bias here. (http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/groseclose/Media.Bias.8.htm)

What I like about Fox News is that is is fair and ballanced. They report and I get to decide.

[PM Thor]

Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton.
Barack Hussein Obama, Jr.
Willard Mitt Romney.
John Sidney McCain III.

Great. A Diane, Hussein, Willard, and Sidney. Just based on their given names, they all suck.

[The Artist]

I was making a joke when I did it Mr. Knight. To my knowledge, it was first brought up when Bob Kerry mentioned it. Bob Kerry was a democrat and a Congressman for a long time. He happened to bring it up during a press release where he endorsed Hillary Clinton.

Who has brought up race and the Muslim issue into the campaign? Democrats. Specifically Democrats like Hillary Clinton. Blame it on the right wing if you want but if you so desire I can point to substantive evidence that it is coming directly from your own party.

Face the facts. It isn't some evil right-wing conspiracy. It is dirty dealing democrats again using race as an issue to their own benefit. You need to get a grip on that.

Bill Clinton was the first Black President. At least when it was convenient.

You're not exactly winning points by saying somethign you do is ok because the Clinton campaign originated it. Frankly I don't give two shats where it originated, that's irrelevent.

[American X]

You should include nicknames instead of middle names.

Hillary 'Queen Cankles' Clinton
Barack 'Twinkletoes' Obama
Mitt 'Spidermonkey' Romney
John 'Superfly' McCain

[blobfan]

You're not exactly winning points by saying somethign you do is ok because the Clinton campaign originated it. Frankly I don't give two shats where it originated, that's irrelevent.

2 Shats: irrelevant maybe, but definitely amusing

[DC Muskie]

Republicans really have a hard choice to make for their nominee. A guy they don't trust, of the guy who will say anything to get elected.

Seriously, anyone who votes for Mitt Romney and calls himself conservative, should have his head examined.

[Stonebreaker]

As opposed to Hilary, who has a fine past of cattle futures, Whitewater and pardon scandals; and the young buck who hasn't even finished his first term as senator?
Let's just say there isn't a JFK or Reagan in the field.

[American X]

Seriously, anyone who votes for Mitt Romney and calls himself conservative, should have his head examined.

I'm not doing backflips over Romney, but what else am I supposed to do on Tuesday?

[American X]

Just looked at the WSJ after last post. First thing I read on editorial page:

"John McCain's 96-year-old mother gave the press corps a laugh when she told Republican voters they should just 'hold their noses' and vote for her son. Give Mama McCain credit for some straight talk."

Looks like the Journal is throwing its support behind McCain with the editorial next to it also supporting him.

[X-band '01]

2 Shats: irrelevant maybe, but definitely amusing

If I ever get an iPod, that's going to be at the top of my playlist.

[blobfan]

If I ever get an iPod, that's going to be at the top of my playlist.

It's been haunting me ever since I saw it posted a few days ago.

[Snipe]

You're not exactly winning points by saying somethign you do is ok because the Clinton campaign originated it. Frankly I don't give two shats where it originated, that's irrelevent.

Nice high road. How is the view? Would you not care “where it originated” or would it be “irrelevant” if this attack policy came from a Republican front runner instead of the Democratic front runner?

Think about that. I highly doubt it. You want to take some moral high ground when I expose the dirty tactics of Democrats? That is all that I did. I find it laughable that you object to me for bringing it up.

A link to statements of Bob Kerry that I mentioned earlier in this thread:

Bob Kerrey Goes for Clinton (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/12/16/kerrey_for_clinton.html)

This is what the Clinton Campaign was churning out in December:


"The fact that he's African American is a big deal. I do expect and hope that Hillary is the nominee of the party. But I hope he's used in some way.”

It appears to the Clintons that it is a big deal, and it will be used for sure.


"It's probably not something that appeals to him, but I like the fact that his name is Barack Hussein Obama, and that his father was a Muslim and that his paternal grandmother is a Muslim.”

Barack Hussein Obama has a Muslim name. His father was a Muslim, and so was his "paternal" grandmother.

On CNN he continued the barrage (http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/17/madrassa-bob-kerrey/):


“I’ve watched the blogs try to say that you can’t trust him because he spent a little bit of time in a secular madrassa. I feel quite the opposite — I think it’s a tremendous strength.”

Obama attended a madrassa per the Clinton Campaign, and they think it is a “tremendous strength”. Kill them with kindness and a smile while stabbing them in the back.

That isn’t a right wing conspiracy my friend.

I posted about Bill Clinton’s comments about comparing Obama to Jesse Jackson here:

Barack Hussein Obama & Jessie Jackson (http://www.xavierhoops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1081)


"Jesse Jackson won South Carolina in '84 and '88," Clinton said at a rally in Columbia. "Jackson ran a good campaign. And Obama ran a good campaign here." (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/01/26/for_bill_clinton_echoes_of_jac.html)
- William Jefferson Clinton, 42nd President of The United States of America

To go back to your post:


You're not exactly winning points by saying somethign you do is ok because the Clinton campaign originated it.


In reality, I am not saying it is OK. I am exposing the Democratic Party’s front runner for the Presidency for what she really is. Hillary Clinton is the front runner. She is winning and I believe that she will win the nomination. These are her tactics, not mine. Nobody as of yet has voted for Hillary Clinton in our little straw poll on this thread. Her campaign has used racism, ethnicity and religion against her opponent, and they have done it with a smile. They did it for good reason (they are winning after all). That is why they did it. Intolerance and bigotry seem to appeal to the Democratic party.

I apologize to you for offending you by noting it. I did it because nobody else was bringing it up.

Am I wrong? If so please carefully disabuse me of this notion. I wait with baited breath.

[American X]

When the campaigns began, I never thought I would be voting for the Massachusetts Mormon.

Regardless, I loved voting yesterday. I had a big grin walking out of the polling station. God Bless America.

[ATL Muskie]

[QUOTE=American X;10166
I had a big grin walking out of the polling station. God Bless America.[/QUOTE]

And when he left, this guy emerged from under the voting booth:

http://www.geocities.com/concreteangels2003/images/mahoney01.jpg

I voted for old John McCain yesterday. I enjoy living in a state with open primaries b/c I hate having to declare a party.

[The Artist]

Nice high road. How is the view? Would you not care “where it originated” or would it be “irrelevant” if this attack policy came from a Republican front runner instead of the Democratic front runner?

Think about that. I highly doubt it. You want to take some moral high ground when I expose the dirty tactics of Democrats? That is all that I did. I find it laughable that you object to me for bringing it up.

A link to statements of Bob Kerry that I mentioned earlier in this thread:

Bob Kerrey Goes for Clinton (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/12/16/kerrey_for_clinton.html)

This is what the Clinton Campaign was churning out in December:



It appears to the Clintons that it is a big deal, and it will be used for sure.



Barack Hussein Obama has a Muslim name. His father was a Muslim, and so was his "paternal" grandmother.

On CNN he continued the barrage (http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/17/madrassa-bob-kerrey/):



Obama attended a madrassa per the Clinton Campaign, and they think it is a “tremendous strength”. Kill them with kindness and a smile while stabbing them in the back.

That isn’t a right wing conspiracy my friend.

I posted about Bill Clinton’s comments about comparing Obama to Jesse Jackson here:

Barack Hussein Obama & Jessie Jackson (http://www.xavierhoops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1081)



To go back to your post:



In reality, I am not saying it is OK. I am exposing the Democratic Party’s front runner for the Presidency for what she really is. Hillary Clinton is the front runner. She is winning and I believe that she will win the nomination. These are her tactics, not mine. Nobody as of yet has voted for Hillary Clinton in our little straw poll on this thread. Her campaign has used racism, ethnicity and religion against her opponent, and they have done it with a smile. They did it for good reason (they are winning after all). That is why they did it. Intolerance and bigotry seem to appeal to the Democratic party.

I apologize to you for offending you by noting it. I did it because nobody else was bringing it up.

Am I wrong? If so please carefully disabuse me of this notion. I wait with baited breath.

Yikes. Lighten up Francis.

I need to make one liners (ok, maybe two liners) directed toward you more often. Apparently it gives you hours worth of something to do.

I'm quite liberal, and I would vote for McCain over Hilary, so there goes any theory.

[Johnny X]

Obama's Church of Christ, I believe. He actually comes from a fairly non-religious family.

[Chris Knight]

Since Snipe is playing the role of the "vast right wing conspiracy", perhaps I'll play the role of the "liberal media".

How come nobody is bringing up what happened to McCain in 2000 in South Carolina? His name on the poll should read John "has an illegitimate black child" McCain. Insert liberal media link here: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/03/21/the_anatomy_of_a_smear_campaign/?page=1

Snipe, who do you think engineered this one? Does it really matter? Do you agree with these tactics?

BTW, I can't speak for anyone else here, but I have yet to be "offended" in this thread. This is just good ole' fashioned political arguing, and I enjoy it. Hope you all feel the same.

[Snipe]

Yikes. Lighten up Francis.

I need to make one liners (ok, maybe two liners) directed toward you more often. Apparently it gives you hours worth of something to do.

I'm quite liberal, and I would vote for McCain over Hilary, so there goes any theory.

Didn't take me hours. Didn't think you would vote for Hillary either. Don't know anyone that would.

You responded to a response of mine to Mr. Knight, who thought it was all a vast right wing conspiracy. It isn't that at all. Repubicans wouldn't waste dirt on a man who won't be the nominee. The attacks have been coming from Dems. Those attacks have worked. Looks like the liberals are the most intollerant party when it comes down to brass tacks, though that works against the common perceptions.

Liberals like Mr. Knight like to think "right wingers" are behind it all. They like to think they they are good and compasionate and that their foes are bad and evil. I have seen it too many times. It is a superiority complex. They need to feel that they are better. It isn't the battle of ideas, it is about them being superior so that the argument is secondary and doesn't matter. Even when liberals are wrong, they like to think they were right in the way that they feel. That is what gives us a never ending war on poverty with programs that produce more poverty. It is what gives us generational welfare.

Lets help the poor is the battle cry, even when we are hurting the poor by giving them bad incentives and showing them the soft bigotry of low expectations. You guys are in a never ending loop.

Why do liberals use racist ploys in elections? Because they are in a position to do it and they work on Democrats. That is how Hillary could do it and why she has succeeded. Imagine if McCain tried to pull stunts like that. He would be rejected by his own party. We flat out would not accept that behavior. Looks like that behavior will win the Democratic nomination.

You guys must be proud.

[Snipe]

Since Snipe is playing the role of the "vast right wing conspiracy", perhaps I'll play the role of the "liberal media".

How come nobody is bringing up what happened to McCain in 2000 in South Carolina? His name on the poll should read John "has an illegitimate black child" McCain. Insert liberal media link here: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/03/21/the_anatomy_of_a_smear_campaign/?page=1

Snipe, who do you think engineered this one? Does it really matter? Do you agree with these tactics?

BTW, I can't speak for anyone else here, but I have yet to be "offended" in this thread. This is just good ole' fashioned political arguing, and I enjoy it. Hope you all feel the same.

It has been mentioned in the media, like the article that you have stated. Other than that you don't have any proof that the "illegitimate black child" campaign ever existed on a grand scale (or any scale) in SC. Nobody has any proof of who was doing it, if it was done by Democrats or Republicans, or if it was even ever done at all. They couldn't prove it existed, and they couldn't prove where it was coming from.

Who do I think did it? I don't know if it ever really happened. Do I agree with those tactics? No.

The examples I cited were 1) a public official (Bob Kerry) in his endorsement of Hillary Clinton and 2) Bill Clinton, a former President who compared Obama to Jesse Jackson on the campaign trail to give his wife an advantage.

I can prove my sources. That is more than I can say for yours.

[Fred Garvin]

Bob Kerrey, he of the pretentiously named New School? He shouldn't be confused with John Kerry. John Kerry is the guy who came back from Vietnam and confessed to "atrocities" while in country.

Bob Kerrey is the guy Evan Thomas and the boys at Newsweek adored. For several years they sat on the story about him slitting the throat of a civilian while in Vietnam....and Dems say Henry Kissinger and Dubya are the war criminals.

[The Artist]

Didn't take me hours. Didn't think you would vote for Hillary either. Don't know anyone that would.

You responded to a response of mine to Mr. Knight, who thought it was all a vast right wing conspiracy. It isn't that at all. Repubicans wouldn't waste dirt on a man who won't be the nominee. The attacks have been coming from Dems. Those attacks have worked. Looks like the liberals are the most intollerant party when it comes down to brass tacks, though that works against the common perceptions.

Liberals like Mr. Knight like to think "right wingers" are behind it all. They like to think they they are good and compasionate and that their foes are bad and evil. I have seen it too many times. It is a superiority complex. They need to feel that they are better. It isn't the battle of ideas, it is about them being superior so that the argument is secondary and doesn't matter. Even when liberals are wrong, they like to think they were right in the way that they feel. That is what gives us a never ending war on poverty with programs that produce more poverty. It is what gives us generational welfare.

Lets help the poor is the battle cry, even when we are hurting the poor by giving them bad incentives and showing them the soft bigotry of low expectations. You guys are in a never ending loop.

Why do liberals use racist ploys in elections? Because they are in a position to do it and they work on Democrats. That is how Hillary could do it and why she has succeeded. Imagine if McCain tried to pull stunts like that. He would be rejected by his own party. We flat out would not accept that behavior. Looks like that behavior will win the Democratic nomination.

You guys must be proud.


See, you're taking Hilary and generalizing all liberals into a group and lining them up with something she did. But hey, anything to help your argument, right?

[PM Thor]

I guess Snipe forgets Willie Horton. It's not just the left that taps illicit racial undertones, and to say so is simplistic.

[KC4X]

Mitt Romney is dropping out of the race, apparently (per NBC News Special Report).

[blobfan]

Mitt Romney is dropping out of the race, apparently (per NBC News Special Report).

Cnn cites "GOP sources" saying he's "suspending his campaign."

[cinskyline]

Mitt Romney is dropping out of the race, apparently (per NBC News Special Report).

Whoa. Didn't see that one coming.

[ATL Muskie]

Quitter. Will Pat Knight be taking his place?

[DC Muskie]

He had no chance for the nomination after Tuesday. This is actually a good thing to quit. Bad news for Democrats.

[Snipe]

See, you're taking Hilary and generalizing all liberals into a group and lining them up with something she did. But hey, anything to help your argument, right?

Certainly not all. She is the one getting the votes though, that has to count for something.

[Kahns Krazy]

It is down to 2 candidate on both sides.

Or less.....

[Snipe]

I was wrong when I said it was down to two candidates for the Republicans. Huckabee was a huge factor in splitting the vote. I think a lot of his would have gone for Romney and that Mitt would probably still be in the race. I suspect he stayed in for McCain in return for the Vice Presidency.

Of course Romney may have dropped out for the same purpose. It is all speculation. Huckabee has no chance. McCain has it wrapped up.

[Snipe]

I guess Snipe forgets Willie Horton. It's not just the left that taps illicit racial undertones, and to say so is simplistic.


I don't think the Horton ad was racist. It doesn't matter if Jesse Jackson says so.

The Horton story came from an award winning author and it was published in reader's digest. It caused quite a stir. It was quite a brutal story. They gave a furlough to a convicted killer sentenced to life without parole. They let him go, no surprise he didn't come back. No surprise he went on the run and turned violent. Gore used the furlough program against Dukakis in the primaries and GHW Bush did the same in the election. I would have used it to. Talk about soft on crime. That is outrageous.

When Horton was let out he broke into a young couples house with a gun. He pistol-whipped the man, tied him up and cut him over 20 times in the midsection. Then he raped his wife. Wow. Talk about a failure of government to protect the people.

Could you imagine what that guy thought when he found out that the guy he watched rape his wife was let out after being sentenced to life without parole for killing somebody else? It is an incredible story.

[PM Thor]

Snipe, you are misremembering things.

Bush never used Willie Horton against Dukakis. It was the pro Bush group---National Security Political Action Committee that put it out. Atwater (as Bushs' head of his campaign) also came out and said that he would "make Willie Horton his [Dukakis's] running mate." According to a January 14, 1991, Associated Press report.

But in fact, Bushs' campaign denounced the ads, and asked the NSPAC to pull them, which they did. Look at the different ads. The one by the PAC is blatantly racist. The one bemoaning Dukakis' furlough program by Bush had no mention of Horton.

I was pointing out that racism isn't simply a Democratic issue, because very recently Republicans have used it also.

[Snipe]

The one by the PAC is blatantly racist. The one bemoaning Dukakis' furlough program by Bush had no mention of Horton.



Willie Horton Ad (http://youtube.com/watch?v=EC9j6Wfdq3o)


I would like to know why you think that ad is blatantly racist.

[PM Thor]

Well, both pictures of Horton were doctored to look darker than they were, with ominous, grainy pictures trying to depict in a certain manner. Now would those have happened if Horton had been white?

Now, why do you think that Atwater would make a statement like this about it?

"There is a story about a fellow named Willie Horton who for all I know may end up to be Dukakis' running mate. Dukakis is making Hamlet look like the rock of Gibraltar in the way he's acted on this. [This was a reference to Dukakis' search for a vice-presidential candidate.] The guy (Dukakis) was on TV about a month ago and he said you'll never see me standing in the driveway of my house talking to these candidates. And guess what, on Monday, I saw in the driveway of his house? Jesse Jackson. So anyway, maybe he'll put this Willie Horton guy on the ticket after all is said and done."

'From his deathbed...."In 1988, fighting Dukakis, I said that I 'would strip the bark off the little bastard' and 'make Willie Horton his running mate.' I am sorry for both statements: the first for its naked cruelty, the second because it makes me sound racist, which I am not."'

Atwater himself admitted that it was a racially charged talking point, then equated Jackson to a killer.

Look, I'm not saying that Dems are above doing political crap like this, but to think that the Republicans are above it too is wrong. Heck, the only reason that I won't use this quote is because it doesn't have a name to the source...

'In his book about the 1988 campaign, Pledging Allegiance, Blumenthal quotes an anonymous member of the Bush campaign team as saying, "Willie Horton has star quality. Willie's going to be politically furloughed to terrorize again. It's a wonderful mix of liberalism and a big black rapist." '

Can you play on race as an undercurrent any more than that?

[Snipe]

I wasn't talking about Lee Atwater's statements or a "anonymous member" of the Bush campaign. I was wondering why you thought the ad was blatantly racist. So far you have said that the pictures were doctored in some way, and that is the only thing you are pointing too.

I don't know anything about that, but I will give you that point anyway. Is that the main reason it is blatently racist? If they put up his actual undoctored mug shot would it have not been blatently racist?

[PM Thor]

Why even use a picture? Because they could find a picture of a guy that looked like that, that's why. It's racist because it plays on white fear. I doubt that these ads were meant to appeal to blacks or minorites...hence the picture of the felon with the giant fro.

I said in retrospect why it is blatantly racist, and gave you quotes from the people who put it out there (vicariously, we all know PACs are run by the parties) who even admitted as much.

I simply don't understand why you can't be more open to criticism about the GOP. They have their flaws, and do things just as does the Dems do. Here, I will throw you a bone about Horton. Gore brought him up originally in a debate with Dukakis, but was quickly shouted down about it. The Republicans took it from there.

[Fred Garvin]

Sid Vicious Blumenthal quoting an "anonymous source" in the Bush admininstration. That's rich. Is Pledging Allegiance the book where he pretends Reagan didn't win the Cold War. That's right, Gorby just came willingly.

Is the book updated so Sid can talk about lying to a grand jury? He could talk about false affidavits and obstructing justice.

[PM Thor]

Uhh, Fred, that's why I didn't count his quote as very reliable.

[Snipe]

Why even use a picture? Because they could find a picture of a guy that looked like that, that's why. It's racist because it plays on white fear. I doubt that these ads were meant to appeal to blacks or minorites...hence the picture of the felon with the giant fro.

Why use the picture? Huh? Maybe because it is Television? It was a national story that ran in Readers Digest by an award winning author. It was quite a compelling tale, as I have already have recounted. 11 weekend passes for a convicted killer who was in jail for life without parole? Are you kidding me? And then he gets out and beats, stabs and rapes people? Is it wrong to tell that story? Is it wrong to use that picture?




I said in retrospect why it is blatantly racist, and gave you quotes from the people who put it out there (vicariously, we all know PACs are run by the parties) who even admitted as much.



That is not true. You gave me two quotes from Lee Atwater and neither of them said the ad was racist. Those quotes didn't deal with the ad at all. Was Lee Atwater a dirty son of a bitch? Sure. That is not what I am asking. I am asking why that ad was "blatantly racist".

This was a national story. It was written about in Readers Digest. It was brought up by Al Gore in the Democratic primary.

Questions:

Was the Readers Digest story racist? If a guy gets life without parole for killing someone, then gets 11 weekend passes to commit more crime is that a story that people should be allowed to report?

Would it make a difference if the author in Readers Digest published pictures of the criminals or not when he did his story?

Would the ad have been ok without the picture of the actual criminal? Would you have been fine with that?

Would you have OK'ed the ad had they hired a white actor to play the role of Willie Horton even though Willie was black? Television is a visual medium, you have to show something.

What if the criminal in the case actually was white or even Italian? Would it have been OK to put his picture on TV then?

What if the criminal was Mexican? Chinese? an American Indian? of Irish Descent?

I would like to know under what scenarios this ad would not have been racist.

[Snipe]

Look, I'm not saying that Dems are above doing political crap like this, but to think that the Republicans are above it too is wrong. Heck, the only reason that I won't use this quote is because it doesn't have a name to the source...

'In his book about the 1988 campaign, Pledging Allegiance, Blumenthal quotes an anonymous member of the Bush campaign team as saying, "Willie Horton has star quality. Willie's going to be politically furloughed to terrorize again. It's a wonderful mix of liberalism and a big black rapist." '

Can you play on race as an undercurrent any more than that?
[/B]


"the only reason that I won't use this quote"????

Seems like you quoted it. Seems like you used it.

What do you think about fabricated and unsubstantiated quotes about race?

Can you play on race as an undercurrent any more than that?

[Kahns Krazy]

I won't say Snipe is gay because I can't name the source, but check this out:

In a book I read, the guy who wrote it said "Snipe is gay"

How gay is that?

[PM Thor]

Snipe, if you need to have it explained to you why it is racist, then I simply don't know how to respond, since it very well is, and even Atwater admitted as much. Guess you need to have things spelled out to you every step of the way.

Like I said. The Dems and the Republicans play on race, and use it during elections. I don't understand why you can't, or won't admit that both sides do it. Oh I know. The GOP is without fault. Just keep toeing the party line I guess....no matter what.

[Kahns Krazy]

Actually, I think what he asked for is your interpretation of why you think it is racist. If they made the exact same commercial with a white man, and treated the photos in the same way, would you still find it racist?

Racism is open to a lot of interpretation, and varies from one person to the next. Some people view a noose as racist. Others do not. A noose, in and of itself, is not a racist thing. Just because Atwater says something is racist doesn't make it a racist thing.

Snipe asked a couple of times for your interpretation of the racism in the ad in question. While I personally think it's a powderkeg question and I probably wouldn't answer it myself, I think that you have sidestepped the question, and you certainly haven't expressed yourself clearly enough to dismiss anyone with "Guess you need to have things spelled out to you every step of the way."

I think some people like to throw terms like "racist" around because most people will back away from the term rather than argue it. I'm speaking in general, not about anyone here, but it can be a contagious attitude.

[PM Thor]

Yep, you are right KK. It's a useless act of futility to try to explain why something is racist to someone else. What is that saying? I can't define racism per se, but I know it when I see it.

I know Snipe is just trying to bait me into typing something here, so as to break it down, chop it up, take it out of context, and try to make something out of it. I should have just stayed out of the thread altogether, fully knowing that Snipe would rail once again of the evils of the democratic party and its leaders.

All I was trying to point out originally is that the Republicans are also prone to use race as a political tool, just like democrats. That's all, didn't mean to get into a whole discourse about racism, and who does it and how...that's all.

[xeus]

Why even use a picture? Because they could find a picture of a guy that looked like that, that's why. It's racist because it plays on white fear. I doubt that these ads were meant to appeal to blacks or minorites...hence the picture of the felon with the giant fro.


"A guy that looked like that" ... I don't know what you mean. A guy who looked like what? Do you think he's a scary looking black man? Your personal prejudices about "a guy that looked like that" are a poignant representation of what you call "white fear". Do you think that man's appearance is a racial caricature of some sort?

And frankly, in defense of the 'fro, that's exactly the kind of 'fro I always wished Anthony Myles would grow. Bad ass.

[Stonebreaker]

We need to set up a new poll. Romney ain't lookin' so good. I think if McCain wants to win the WH......one option would be to pick Romney as a running mate. Huckabee or McCain will not win without a powerful running mate. Condo anyone? lol

[PM Thor]

"A guy that looked like that" ... I don't know what you mean. A guy who looked like what? Do you think he's a scary looking black man? Your personal prejudices about "a guy that looked like that" are a poignant representation of what you call "white fear". Do you think that man's appearance is a racial caricature of some sort?

And frankly, in defense of the 'fro, that's exactly the kind of 'fro I always wished Anthony Myles would grow. Bad ass.

Xeus, when I said "a guy that looked like that", I meant the picture itself, which had been doctored to look more menacing, not that it was about him being black.

Why doctor the picture? What benefit is there to make the picture darker and grainy? Because it plays to peoples fears. It plays on race. I don't think it is a racial caricature. I simply think it is highlighting the "menacing black man" aspect of it.

[xeus]

Why doctor the picture? What benefit is there to make the picture darker and grainy? Because it plays to peoples fears. It plays on race. I don't think it is a racial caricature. I simply think it is highlighting the "menacing black man" aspect of it.

Thor, I did some research, and apparently this is the photo they were going to use originally:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:3-NHmWT3wpY_GM:www.africancraftsmarket.com/Zulu-shield.jpg

[PM Thor]

Xeus takes the lead in the "best interpretation of blatantly racist" picture contest!

[xeus]

Xeus takes the lead in the "best interpretation of blatantly racist" picture contest!

Again I am left wondering how you determine that picture is "racist". It's a photo of an African warrior. How exactly is it racist? As far as I can tell, it's a true and accurate representation of a historical figure.

[PM Thor]

Xeus, last time I checked, Willie Horton wasn't an African warrior.

You said that that picture was the one that they originally wanted to use in the commercial. I equated that to mean that was going to be the picture that they would have attributed to being Willie Horton. Maybe I misinterpreted what you were going for, but that is what I read it to mean.

Look, it seems to me that we are trying some revisionist history on this whole Willie Horton thing. I mean, I quoted where Atwater even admitted on his deathbed that at the time it was interpreted as being racist, and Bushs' campaign even asked for the original commercial be pulled. I interpreted that to mean that there was an uproar about a racial underpinning to the commercial, otherwise why would Bush ask for it to be pulled?

We can continue to go round and round about it, that wasn't my intention in the least.

All I was trying to point out that while I agree with Snipe that the Clinton campaign has used race (sometimes) to undercut Obama, I also believe that this is not simply a democratic event. Both sides have done it, continue to do it, and will do it again.

Heck, Romney was questioned for his religious beliefs, Clinton for being a woman, Obama for race, Rudy for his marital woes, on and on. Everything and anything is open and fair game in politics, all sides are at fault for this, not just one. I for one find it pretty sad, because instead of actually talking about positions on issues, the politicians are making personal attacks the regular event, even if they don't come out and say it straight up.

Rant over.