Top Five Point Guards in A-10

[LutherRackleyRulez]

Per CollegeChalkTalk...



Number One of the Number Ones? Ranking the League’s Top Point Guards

Anyone who ventured to Detroit last April for the Men’s Final Four watched the North Carolina Tarheels cut down the nets for the second time under Roy Williams … and also witnessed one common denominator amongst the four participating squads; each was led by a superb play caller at the point guard position.

Ty Lawson of North Carolina, Scottie Reynolds of Villanova, Kalin Lucas of Michigan State and A.J. Price of Connecticut, all helped guide their teams through the respective regions. Lawson’s presence shifted the Carolina offense into an other-worldly gear, Reynolds’ last second basket against Pittsburgh punched Nova’s ticket to Detroit, Big 10 Player of the Year Lucas sealed the Spartans’ regional semifinal win over Kansas, and the talented Price averaged 19 points per game for the Huskies during the NCAA Tournament.

Once again, the old adage proved true; a combination of experienced upperclassmen and quality guards equates to winning games in March. Or April for that matter. Whether at Michigan State or Dayton, having an exceptional point guard orchestrating the attack drastically improves the chances of winning nail-biters during the regular season, or ”surviving and advancing” come tournament time.

So what does all this mean for the Atlantic 10? Here, CCT ranks the top five point guards in the league, and the very A-10 coaches who devise strategies to combat these floor generals offer their thoughts on what makes each indispensable to his team.





http://collegechalktalk.com/general/number-one-of-the-number-ones-ranking-the-leagues-top-point-guards/

[XU05and07]

London Warren's inclusion on this list is a slap in the face of those that deserve to be listed

[AviatorX]

Anderson, Harris, Green, and Fontan are shoe-ins I'd say. After that, I see no reason why Holloway or even Lyons can't slide into the 5 spot over the dreadlock boys. I guess that will be the mid-season list though.

[MuskiePimp23]

This list just lost all credibility adding London Warren to the list...Mark Lyons has not even played a game and is quicker, more athletic, and will be able to score much better than Warren. In addition, I think Holloway will be better than Warren by the time conference season rolls around...I wish Warren had more eligibility than just this year.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

This list just lost all credibility adding London Warren to the list...Mark Lyons has not even played a game and is quicker, more athletic, and will be able to score much better than Warren. In addition, I think Holloway will be better than Warren by the time conference season rolls around...I wish Warren had more eligibility than just this year.

London Warren still suffers nightmares from 2 years ago...In the form of a Stephen King novel/Stanley Kubrick motion picture...

"Here's Aaaaandrew"

[Muskie]

Question: If London Warren played for X, would everyone here consider him one of the best 5 in the league? I'm guessing yes.

[A10fan]

Question: If London Warren played for X, would everyone here consider him one of the best 5 in the league? I'm guessing yes.

He wouldn't have been recruited from the git go. No I wouldn't want Warren on my team. He's had 1 decent year and that was because he didn't have to be on the floor nearly as much when Lowery came last year.

[XU05and07]

Question: If London Warren played for X, would everyone here consider him one of the best 5 in the league? I'm guessing yes.

I can honestly say no...he would ripped like Odia, Dupree Lucas, Johnny Wolf, and Dedrick Finn

No one could claim them to be in the Top 5 in the A10 their years or any years

London Warren is terrible...wilts in big games...he deserves to be on UD

[Juice]

Jio Fontan is my favorite non-Xavier A-10 player. I really hoped he could have gotten out of Fordham this summer so he could play for a program that commands a little respect, but I will be able to watch him at Cintas again this year so that is nice.

London Warren is my 2nd favorite non-Xavier A-10 player for different reasons. I find him entertaining, and I mean entertaining in the way that someone finds the pengiuns at the zoo entertaining. They are comical and goofy in their mannerisms but don't bring much to the table in purpose.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Jio Fontan is my favorite non-Xavier A-10 player. I really hoped he could have gotten out of Fordham this summer so he could play for a program that commands a little respect, but I will be able to watch him at Cintas again this year so that is nice.

London Warren is my 2nd favorite non-Xavier A-10 player for different reasons. I find him entertaining, and I mean entertaining in the way that someone finds the pengiuns at the zoo entertaining. They are comical and goofy in their mannerisms but don't bring much to the table in purpose.

One of my favorite non xavier A-10 players is Kurt Huelsman. Hands down. Pure entertainment.

[Strange Brew]

One of my favorite non xavier A-10 players is Kurt Huelsman. Hands down. Pure entertainment.

Was it him or a different Dayton stiff that West abused for 40 at the 'Tas? THAT, was pure entertainment.

[AdamtheFlyer]

Question: If London Warren played for X, would everyone here consider him one of the best 5 in the league? I'm guessing yes.

3:1 assist to turnover ratio, tons of steals, lockdown defender...Yeah, most X fans would.

Yeah, London can't shoot, and that's why he's not equal to Anderson, but he's does everything else as well or better than every other PG in this league. People that say otherwise are either lying, care way too much about total points, or haven't realized that the freshman London Warren isn't here anymore. The latter are probably the same people who say things like "the midget can't develop players!" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

[MuskiePimp23]

3:1 assist to turnover ratio, tons of steals, lockdown defender...Yeah, most X fans would.

Yeah, London can't shoot, and that's why he's not equal to Anderson, but he's does everything else as well or better than every other PG in this league. People that say otherwise are either lying, care way too much about total points, or haven't realized that the freshman London Warren isn't here anymore. The latter are probably the same people who say things like "the midget can't develop players!" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Here we go Adam starts throwing out stats...How about this one Adam, what was the cumulative strength of schedule that London performed so well against? How did he do in big games such as Xavier at Cintas and against Kansas in the NCAA's? Our "PG" Dante Jackson stepped up quite a bit in the NCAA's while London wilted...Playing good against low tier competition is nowhere near doing it against a schedule like Xaviers. Holloway was a Frosh and was respectable against the competition. This year he will be better and with the added competition, if Warren played for Xavier, he would not even see the floor for more than maybe 5-10 mins/game.

I will give you this Staten is solid...But Warren is not. It will be nice to see Lyons and Holloway on the court this year for X and what Lyons can do against Warren.

Warren plays above average defense...That is the ONLY trait, I will give him props...Other than that the guy is a joke.

[XU 87]

3:1 assist to turnover ratio, tons of steals, lockdown defender...Yeah, most X fans would.

Yeah, London can't shoot,

I will say this once again- there is no way I would want the "Jacksonville Jet" on Xavier. The guy is a point guard who can't shoot. His shooting his so bad he doesn't even attempt to shoot threes. That's not just a small hole in his game. That's a volcanic sized crater.

There's a reason that UD stole him from Jacksonville (the college not the NFL team.)

[AviatorX]

Nevermind. Wrong thread.

[SixFig]

I saw a Midget with a Chinese menu in his hand
Walking through the streets of Dayton in the acid rain
He was looking for a place called UDump Arena
Going to get himself a big dish of Xavier's foot


If you hear him bitcin around your kitchen door
Better not let him in
Little old Dominion got mutilated late last night
Where was London again?
Owooo Where was London?

He's the dreadlock gent who ran amuck in Kent (State)
Lately he's been overheard against Lehigh
Better stay away from him
He'll rip your lungs out, Jim
I'd like to meet his tailor
Owooo Where was London?

Well, I saw John Chaney walking with the Queen
Doing the where was London?
I saw John Chaney, Jr. walking with the Queen
Doing the where was London?
I saw a Huelsman drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's
His hair was perfect
Where was London
Drew Lavender

Owooo Where was London?
Owooo Where was London?
Owooo Where was London?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I saw a Midget with a Chinese menu in his hand
Walking through the streets of Dayton in the acid rain
He was looking for a place called UDump Arena
Going to get himself a big dish of Xavier's foot


If you hear him bitcin around your kitchen door
Better not let him in
Little old Dominion got mutilated late last night
Where was London again?
Owooo Where was London?

He's the dreadlock gent who ran amuck in Kent (State)
Lately he's been overheard against Lehigh
Better stay away from him
He'll rip your lungs out, Jim
I'd like to meet his tailor
Owooo Where was London?

Well, I saw John Chaney walking with the Queen
Doing the where was London?
I saw John Chaney, Jr. walking with the Queen
Doing the where was London?
I saw a HUELSMAN drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's
His hair was perfect
Where was London
Drew Lavender

Owooo Where was London?
Owooo Where was London?
Owooo Where was London?

Great profile pic. Here's another classic. I guess he was going up for a rebound. Or else he was accidentally trying to block/jump with Chris Wright

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cbc4lF9OTfBa/261x.jpg

Another take

http://photos.replayphotos.com/images/NCAA/sm/national-collegiate-athletics-association-mens-basketball-tournament-second-round-tyshawn-taylor-kurt-huelsman-ncaa-mmm-mm2-00189sm.jpg

This ones great because Binnie and Huelsman are both in it. And both are doing absolutely nothing
http://www.nancarrow-webdesk.com/warehouse/storage2/2007-w48/img.85887_t.jpg

[D-West & PO-Z]

I think by the end of the year an argument could be made for Mitchell from SLU to be on this list.

[MuskieCinci]

London Warren probably wouldn't be as good if he went to Xavier because the overall competition we play is tougher but right now for what he has done at UD it makes sense for him to be on this list. The Atlantic 10 doesn't have the greatest players in the world and it isn't like the other 12 teams also have schedules that blow Dayton's out of the water so for now it makes sense. Do I think Warren will be a top 5 point guard at the end of the year? No way, but for now I can let it slide.

[Snipe]

I think the Jacksonville Jet will be very good this year.

[flatspat]

Keith Waleskowski was the UD player that West dropped 47 on.

[jcubspoe]

Here we go Adam starts throwing out stats...How about this one Adam, what was the cumulative strength of schedule that London performed so well against? How did he do in big games such as Xavier at Cintas and against Kansas in the NCAA's? Our "PG" Dante Jackson stepped up quite a bit in the NCAA's while London wilted...Playing good against low tier competition is nowhere near doing it against a schedule like Xaviers. Holloway was a Frosh and was respectable against the competition. This year he will be better and with the added competition, if Warren played for Xavier, he would not even see the floor for more than maybe 5-10 mins/game.

I will give you this Staten is solid...But Warren is not. It will be nice to see Lyons and Holloway on the court this year for X and what Lyons can do against Warren.

Warren plays above average defense...That is the ONLY trait, I will give him props...Other than that the guy is a joke.

My goodness. Do watch basketball? Nice way to selectively pick out a couple of bad games for LW and a couple of great games for DJ. Nicely done.

How did LW do vs. X at the Arena? How did DJ do in that same game? What was DJs T/O to assist ratio? "Here we go again, bringing up stats". Ummmm....isn't that how we compare players in just about any sport?? This isn't a political debate. Sports are generally stat based coupled with win-loss record.

Again, like everything most of you are taking offense too, this is a preseason ranking. Holloway at midseason point last year had the PG position taken away from him and it was given to a SG. Granted injuries played a part in that but it's not like TH shot 40% from behind the arc for you guys. Scoring aside (and TH wasn't prolific, or even avg.), LW did everything else better then TH last year (running the offense and defense). So it's logical to say that LW would be on the Top 5 and TH would not. But don't let facts get in the way of hatred I suppose. Lyons, we have no clue about yet, no one has seen him play other then in high school videos.

[xunorm]

My goodness. Do watch basketball? Nice way to selectively pick out a couple of bad games for LW and a couple of great games for DJ. Nicely done.

How did LW do vs. X at the Arena? How did DJ do in that same game? What was DJs T/O to assist ratio? "Here we go again, bringing up stats". Ummmm....isn't that how we compare players in just about any sport?? This isn't a political debate. Sports are generally stat based coupled with win-loss record.

Again, like everything most of you are taking offense too, this is a preseason ranking. Holloway at midseason point last year had the PG position taken away from him and it was given to a SG. Granted injuries played a part in that but it's not like TH shot 40% from behind the arc for you guys. Scoring aside (and TH wasn't prolific, or even avg.), LW did everything else better then TH last year (running the offense and defense). So it's logical to say that LW would be on the Top 5 and TH would not. But don't let facts get in the way of hatred I suppose. Lyons, we have no clue about yet, no one has seen him play other then in high school videos.

Both teams didn't really run too much of an offense last year. Dayton was all about scoring in transition because (oh no stats), UD did not have great spot up shooters, X at least had that threat. I would take Jackson over Warren any day because Jackson comes up big in big games (are you saying that X at UD was a bigger game than the NCAA tourney because it seems like it) and he did a fair job considering it was a completely new position. I think the whole point of this board is that Warren is fairly one-dimensional meaning a floater in the lane is pretty much out of his range. Sure his defense and handling skills have developed, but no one will guard him (or much less most of UD's team) outside the arc because they are not a threat. How can you penetrate the lane when there are four bodies in there from the other team? He's an average player, and the stats don't lie. Both DJ and LW had bad games last year, but who showed up when it counted the most

NCAA tourney:
LW:
KU: 2-5, 4 points, 2 assists, 3 TOs, 3 stls, 1 blk
WVU: 1-4, 2 points, 9 assists, 2 TOs, 2 stls

DJ: Pitt: 4-7, 9 points, 0 assists, 2 steals, 1 TO
Wisc: 2-5, 8 points, 3 assists, 1 stl, 1 blk, 1 TO
Port St: 5-9, 13 points, 3 assists, 4 stls, 1 TO

Notice that Warren had more TOs and averaged the same amount of steals in the tourney while scoring more points. That is the option that I like to have. Warren might be quick, but KU figured him out. Jackson may disappear on some nights, but he always seems to make a big play or hit a big shot.

[AviatorX]

Both teams didn't really run too much of an offense last year. Dayton was all about scoring in transition because (oh no stats), UD did not have great spot up shooters, X at least had that threat. I would take Jackson over Warren any day because Jackson comes up big in big games (are you saying that X at UD was a bigger game than the NCAA tourney because it seems like it) and he did a fair job considering it was a completely new position. I think the whole point of this board is that Warren is fairly one-dimensional meaning a floater in the lane is pretty much out of his range. Sure his defense and handling skills have developed, but no one will guard him (or much less most of UD's team) outside the arc because they are not a threat. How can you penetrate the lane when there are four bodies in there from the other team? He's an average player, and the stats don't lie. Both DJ and LW had bad games last year, but who showed up when it counted the most

NCAA tourney:
LW:
KU: 2-5, 4 points, 2 assists, 3 TOs, 3 stls, 1 blk
WVU: 1-4, 2 points, 9 assists, 2 TOs, 2 stls

DJ: Pitt: 4-7, 9 points, 0 assists, 2 steals, 1 TO
Wisc: 2-5, 8 points, 3 assists, 1 stl, 1 blk, 1 TO
Port St: 5-9, 13 points, 3 assists, 4 stls, 1 TO

Notice that Warren had more TOs and averaged the same amount of steals in the tourney while scoring more points. That is the option that I like to have. Warren might be quick, but KU figured him out. Jackson may disappear on some nights, but he always seems to make a big play or hit a big shot.

This is how you compare players without stats. When's the last game changing play Warren made in a big game? Granted, I didn't see the WVU game and it appears he had a nice stat line with nearly 10 assists, but I don't think he's the reason UD won nor did he make what would stand out as a big time play.

[xunorm]

This is how you compare players without stats. When's the last game changing play Warren made in a big game? Granted, I didn't see the WVU game and it appears he had a nice stat line with nearly 10 assists, but I don't think he's the reason UD won nor did he make what would stand out as a big time play.

I was thinking of 2 instances when I did that:

the VT game where is only made shot was a half court winner and

the tourney against Georgia when he made the 3 to tie the game and change the momentum completely.

[kyxu]

I was thinking of 2 instances when I did that:

the VT game where is only made shot was a half court winner and

the tourney against Georgia when he made the 3 to tie the game and change the momentum completely.

He also hit the three at URI with about a minute left that put us up for good, and scored four late points against Pitt that put us on top. And don't forget the clinic he put on in the opening minutes against UD in Cincinnati.

[AdamtheFlyer]

This is how you compare players without stats. When's the last game changing play Warren made in a big game? Granted, I didn't see the WVU game and it appears he had a nice stat line with nearly 10 assists, but I don't think he's the reason UD won nor did he make what would stand out as a big time play.

Warren was a big reason UD won that game. Second to only Wright. His penetration set up Wright and Little all game long. He also made a big steal with about 30 seconds left, and a great pass late to set up a big bucket from Charles Little.

If you have the time, watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zpf8LObGts&feature=related

I think you'll see that two of X Hoops favorites made some huge plays late in that game. Do they not count because they didn't actually put the ball in the bucket?

[D-West & PO-Z]

This is how you compare players without stats. When's the last game changing play Warren made in a big game? Granted, I didn't see the WVU game and it appears he had a nice stat line with nearly 10 assists, but I don't think he's the reason UD won nor did he make what would stand out as a big time play.

I'm not sure you can really make that statement when you didnt even see the game.

[Xman95]

The latter are probably the same people who say things like "the midget can't develop players!" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Overwhelming evidence? If he was so great at developing players, wouldn't Dayton have been much better over the last few years? Or did he recruit one-armed midgets with two left feet and his great abilities turned them into average D-1 players? If that's the case, then Gregory is terrific. Otherwise there is no "overwhelming evidence" that he can develop players.

[Xman95]

I would take Jackson over Warren any day because Jackson comes up big in big games

There's the problem. There's not enough of a sample size for Warren because UD rarely plays in big games.

[Titanxman04]

There's the problem. There's not enough of a sample size for Warren because UD rarely plays in big games.

God, you'll change your tune when Dayton takes on that whallop of a schedule this season and LW will have a chance to... Oh. Wait a second... Nevermind on that one.

Fact is, Warren has had ONE decent game against X since he's been here. Drew owned his ass. And Lyons and Crawford will taken joint-ownership this year. He's quick and is developing, but not nearly as much as some of you Dayton fans think.

My three roommates all went to Dayton. It's almost painful to hear how they think LW is so great, considering that for the most part, I like them, and I'll almost feel bad when they'll have to tolerate his incapability of actually possessing an all-around game like point guards should have.

It's not your fault. You just don't remember what a solid pg actually looks like. Don't get angry, it's just the facts. I mean, you've seen Drew destroy you all, but your jealousy drives that out of your mind. Fret not, there's always hope in Staten. Until then, don't get upset. Maybe one day you'll have a decent to average big man too.

[AviatorX]

Warren was a big reason UD won that game. Second to only Wright. His penetration set up Wright and Little all game long. He also made a big steal with about 30 seconds left, and a great pass late to set up a big bucket from Charles Little.

If you have the time, watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zpf8LObGts&feature=related

I think you'll see that two of X Hoops favorites made some huge plays late in that game. Do they not count because they didn't actually put the ball in the bucket?

Well, then I guess it was a good call on my part to put in the disclaimer. I knew Wright played a big part (thus the preseason hype is solely on him more than any other UD player), and I figured Warren played his typical, solid game.

I guess I'm not as high on London as UD fans are but at the same time I'm not as low on him as most XU fans/homers. Right now, I really don't have a problem with him being listed as a top 5 PG in the league, when it comes down to it. After this season, we'll see.

[waggy]

I think it's pretty sad that the A10 is so awful that Warren is considered a top 4 point in the conference.

[jcubspoe]

God, you'll change your tune when Dayton takes on that whallop of a schedule this season and LW will have a chance to... Oh. Wait a second... Nevermind on that one.

Fact is, Warren has had ONE decent game against X since he's been here. Drew owned his ass. And Lyons and Crawford will taken joint-ownership this year. He's quick and is developing, but not nearly as much as some of you Dayton fans think.

My three roommates all went to Dayton. It's almost painful to hear how they think LW is so great, considering that for the most part, I like them, and I'll almost feel bad when they'll have to tolerate his incapability of actually possessing an all-around game like point guards should have.

It's not your fault. You just don't remember what a solid pg actually looks like. Don't get angry, it's just the facts. I mean, you've seen Drew destroy you all, but your jealousy drives that out of your mind. Fret not, there's always hope in Staten. Until then, don't get upset. Maybe one day you'll have a decent to average big man too.

I'm not upset....LW is in the list of Top 5 PG in the A10, X has none, so I'm not upset. Why bring up Drew? He's long gone nor in contention this year for one of the top 5 PG spots.

I guess I can live with LW lack of an all around game when we get 27+ wins again this year and make the NCAA.

[jcubspoe]

Well, then I guess it was a good call on my part to put in the disclaimer. I knew Wright played a big part (thus the preseason hype is solely on him more than any other UD player), and I figured Warren played his typical, solid game.

I guess I'm not as high on London as UD fans are but at the same time I'm not as low on him as most XU fans/homers. Right now, I really don't have a problem with him being listed as a top 5 PG in the league, when it comes down to it. After this season, we'll see.

Do I wish we had a BETTER PG then LW? Of course I do. But it doesn't mean we can't win with him at as our PG. I've been as hard on LW as anyone. I partook in a heated debate over on UDPride where I'll still maintain that State is probably already better then LW so I'm not trying to argue that LW is some stud PG.

But looking at the overall PG position in the A10, one can easily make the argument that going into this season he should be in the Top 5. There's no way you can make that argument yet for Lyons or Holloway. After this season, or even midway through, possibly.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Do I wish we had a BETTER PG then LW? Of course I do. But it doesn't mean we can't win with him at as our PG. I've been as hard on LW as anyone. I partook in a heated debate over on UDPride where I'll still maintain that State is probably already better then LW so I'm not trying to argue that LW is some stud PG.

But looking at the overall PG position in the A10, one can easily make the argument that going into this season he should be in the Top 5. There's no way you can make that argument yet for Lyons or Holloway. After this season, or even midway through, possibly.

You'll see the benefits of a great PG who can score when you guys see Staten play for UD ...The guy is for real...

As for Warren, sure he's solid. I wouldn't mind having him on my team. But it shows the overall lack of depth at the PG position of the A10 if he's top 5. Now if he proved himself to be a consistent scoring threat, he'd easily be top 5.

Regardless, Anderson from Richmond is the best PG in the league in my opinion. No doubt about it.

[AviatorX]

You'll see the benefits of a great PG who can score when you guys see Staten play for UD ...The guy is for real...

As for Warren, sure he's solid. I wouldn't mind having him on my team. But it shows the overall lack of depth at the PG position of the A10 if he's top 5. Now if he proved himself to be a consistent scoring threat, he'd easily be top 5.

Regardless, Anderson from Richmond is the best PG in the league in my opinion. No doubt about it.

Completely agree. He just torched us last year. Really impressive.

[jcubspoe]

You'll see the benefits of a great PG who can score when you guys see Staten play for UD ...The guy is for real...

As for Warren, sure he's solid. I wouldn't mind having him on my team. But it shows the overall lack of depth at the PG position of the A10 if he's top 5. Now if he proved himself to be a consistent scoring threat, he'd easily be top 5.

Regardless, Anderson from Richmond is the best PG in the league in my opinion. No doubt about it.

Hard to argue against this post.

[Muskied]

Also hard to argue that LW hasn't done anything at UD but win one NCAA tourney game. You can hang banners for all these pre season accolades for all I care, including those for great recruits or "players you've developed". Xavier fans give all that up every year, and will again to win the 4th straight conference title and another sweet 16 appearance.

This thread is the most ridiculous debate with UD I've seen yet....Even true UD fans know London's a head ache. You'd rather have had Meachem, and know that Lowery is even better when healthy. Last year, Xavier had a small forward play point guard, and the comparison is still close. It won’t be close anymore.

[jcubspoe]

Also hard to argue that LW hasn't done anything at UD but win one NCAA tourney game. You can hang banners for all these pre season accolades for all I care, including those for great recruits or "players you've developed". Xavier fans give all that up every year, and will again to win the 4th straight conference title and another sweet 16 appearance.

This thread is the most ridiculous debate with UD I've seen yet....Even true UD fans know London's a head ache. You'd rather have had Meachem, and know that Lowery is even better when healthy. Last year, Xavier had a small forward play point guard, and the comparison is still close. It won’t be close anymore.

How many NCAA games has Anderson at Richmond won? How many A10 banners has he hung up?

I think you see my point. This thread wasn't started as a UD vs. X thread...it's supposed to be about the Top 5 PG in the A10. If you want to make an argument for Holloway or Lyons go right ahead but stating things like, "how many wins does so and so have vs X" isn't going to win the argument. Using that logic, based on W-L the last few years, all 12 X players should get some sort of award this year.

[xunorm]

How many NCAA games has Anderson at Richmond won? How many A10 banners has he hung up?

I think you see my point. This thread wasn't started as a UD vs. X thread...it's supposed to be about the Top 5 PG in the A10. If you want to make an argument for Holloway or Lyons go right ahead but stating things like, "how many wins does so and so have vs X" isn't going to win the argument. Using that logic, based on W-L the last few years, all 12 X players should get some sort of award this year.


as they should

[Muskied]

That's my point Joe. A Xavier PG isn't listed....and maybe they should be, just based on the fact that the PG is the leader of the defending A10 champion, so until proven otherwise, they deserve that credit. Who’s a better quarterback....Eli Manning or Phillip Rivers or Drew Breese? Until one of the latter win a championship, Eli has my vote, and it's the same way here. Xavier has often missed out on pre and post season awards the past few years, but earned the championships, and that's all that matters. But if you're going to debate award credit on this board, you'll find that yes, all 12 X players should get some sort of award.

[MuskiePimp23]

My goodness. Do watch basketball? Nice way to selectively pick out a couple of bad games for LW and a couple of great games for DJ. Nicely done.

How did LW do vs. X at the Arena? How did DJ do in that same game? What was DJs T/O to assist ratio? "Here we go again, bringing up stats". Ummmm....isn't that how we compare players in just about any sport?? This isn't a political debate. Sports are generally stat based coupled with win-loss record.

Again, like everything most of you are taking offense too, this is a preseason ranking. Holloway at midseason point last year had the PG position taken away from him and it was given to a SG. Granted injuries played a part in that but it's not like TH shot 40% from behind the arc for you guys. Scoring aside (and TH wasn't prolific, or even avg.), LW did everything else better then TH last year (running the offense and defense). So it's logical to say that LW would be on the Top 5 and TH would not. But don't let facts get in the way of hatred I suppose. Lyons, we have no clue about yet, no one has seen him play other then in high school videos.

Do I watch basketball? That is funny, I watch hundreds and hundreds of games per year...As many as I can...Absolutely love the sport...Don't watch ud too much though, because THEY ARE ALMOST NEVER ON TV...My point as far as comparision, is a MEAC conference player, may average 25 PPG, but the level of competition he is playing against, is far inferior to a high major schedule...UD's schedule is absolutely TERRIBLE...London absolutely would not have those stats playing against a better schedule...By the way...1908.

[jcubspoe]

Do I watch basketball? That is funny, I watch hundreds and hundreds of games per year...As many as I can...Absolutely love the sport...Don't watch ud too much though, because THEY ARE ALMOST NEVER ON TV...My point as far as comparision, is a MEAC conference player, may average 25 PPG, but the level of competition he is playing against, is far inferior to a high major schedule...UD's schedule is absolutely TERRIBLE...London absolutely would not have those stats playing against a better schedule...By the way...1908.

Do you really want me to respond to this? I'll give one or two sensible X fans to respond to this and tell you why this is such a BS theory: "London absolutely would not have those stats playing against a better schedule". In fact I'll give it one full day at least before I further respond to this high school statement.

Nevermind, I'll do it now...after 5 min of research it's easier then I thought. Now first, I'm not going to debate the SOS between X and UD, that's going on in a thread right below this one. BUT, I will take issue with your very weak argument as to why LW shouldn't be considered a Top 5 PG in the A10 (right there should be a clue to you.) You said, " London ABSOLUTELY WOULD NOT HAVE THOSE STATS playing against a better schedule." That is a weak weak argument. All of my points below build on each other....

One, I was really hoping I wouldn't have to bring up point one but you do realize that UD and X BOTH play in the A10 correct? That being the same conference? We are talking about the same A10 right. You don't think there is like an ACC 1B that X is a part of do you? There, we've established that for just about half of the games during the season, UD and X are playing a nearly identical schedule.

Two, and this kind of builds on point one. The article is talking about the Top 5 PG in THE A10 NEXT SEASON. We are not comparing full schedules, or PG in the ACC, or how badly DL schooled LW when he was a soph...this is all irrelevant.

Three, IF anyone is to accept the argument you threw out there, then this argument applies to every player in college, right? I mean if there's no way that LW would put up these stats against better competition then where does that leave Anderson of Richmond sitting in the A10? Let's look at last year's RPI/SOS for the Top 5 teams in the A10 by those numbers:

1. X 14/42 (clearly the class of the league)
2. UD 24/82
3. URI 50/105
4. Duq 112/117
5. Rich 124/125

So, let's use your argument. X can have the #1 PG in the league, but sadly for you, LW is actually 2 spots better and both TH and LW are better then Anderson. In fact there is a bigger SOS gap between UD and Rich then UD/X. But either way, now Anderson has slid to 5th, and Harris from Charlotte is no where to be found.

Fifth, let's look at non A10 teams...

Mighty Gonzaga 21/74
Butler 24/88
LSU 32/66
St.Mary's 45/129
Cleveland st (yes the vaunted Cleveland ST that you guys are dying to schedule) 55/102
Florida (yes, the SEC, two time champions) 56/81 (wow...a whole whopping 1 better then the pathetic Flyers)

Sixth, I was going to list team for team but the simpler way to do this is to break down the RPI between X and UD from last year:

X vs the RPI
1-50: Record 6-5
51-100: Record 5-1
101-200: Record 10-1
200+ : Record 6-1

UD vs. the RPI
1-50: Record 4-3
51-100: Record 5-2
101-200: 11-2
200+: Record 7-1

Now I will break down OOC. We had 3 common opponents in OOC. Auburn, Miami-OH, and Toledo. So scratch them off. Bad bad teams that X played (RPI over 150)...IUPUI and Ohio. Bad, bad teams that UD played...Wofford, Del St., Beth Cook, Mercer, Coppin St, and Marshall and UNC-Green. Next level for X (50-150): Va Tech, Cincy, Robert Morris, VA, and Portland St. (111) UD in that tier: Troy, Akron, George Mason, and West Virgina (77). Finally, X in the 1-50: Missouri, Memphis, Duke, Butler, Wisc (42), and Pitt (2). UD: Creighton (46), Marquette(30), and Kansas (11).

Now, clearly X played a tougher schedule then UD but you make it sound as if UD plays DII ball while X played ACC ball and that's absolutely not true. UD played the tougher conf schedule on top of that which is what should really matter when it come to ranking our A10 rankings. If you don't believe that UD played the tougher unbalanced schedule then please explain how we closed an 80 point gap in OOC play to only 40 by the time it was all said and done.

This was not meant to be inflammatory to most of the X fans on here but to show Pimp here that it was a totally ridiculous statement to say that LW wouldn't put up those stats (at least you acknowledged the stats this time) against better comp. He played against some of the best competition in the country including vs. the same conf that X plays in. Poor Anderson, he shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as LW or TH,

Bottom line...X and UD played 19 of the same teams then 2 more A10 teams each in the conf tourny. So 21 out of 35 games just right there were identical. Now if you throw out some of the similar bad teams coupled with some of the good teams you are using a sample size of about 5 or 6 games for your argument. 5 or 6 out of 35??!! That's your argument?

So, one I think you're wrong, and I have a hard time believing you watch hundreds of games a year. Take off the kool aid glasses and make a better argument. We can debate whether LW should or should not be considered a Top 5 PG in the league but your argument holds zero, nada, none.

[Muskied]

What the hell was that? Bottom like for me...UD was 23-3 when they had Rob Lowery, 5-5 without him. Mabye they played stronger competition without him, maybe he's just better than London. Either way, I think all Dayton fans know London isn't even the best PG on their team, much less top 5 in the A10.

[GuyFawkes38]

I know people hate it when kenpom stats are brought out. But I don't care.

Warren's stats come across as underwhelming. Only plays 53% of games. Ridiculously awful shooting stats. Only a 91.5 offensive rating. He doesn't get to the line much.

The best thing going for him is his assist rate (39.0%...10th best in the country). But Rob Lowry has a higher assist rate (40.4%), which makes me think that Warren's high rate might stem more from offensive design than sheer brilliance.

Edit: forgot to note his high steal rate.

I guess he's alright.

[jcubspoe]

What the hell was that? Bottom like for me...UD was 23-3 when they had Rob Lowery, 5-5 without him. Mabye they played stronger competition without him, maybe he's just better than London. Either way, I think all Dayton fans know London isn't even the best PG on their team, much less top 5 in the A10.

It was simply me saying that the ole competition argument doesn't hold any water. There are other arguments you can make as to why he shouldn't be in the Top 5 in the A10 but that isn't one of them. There, I said it much more succinctly without the stats to prove it.

[jcubspoe]

I know people hate it when kenpom stats are brought out. But I don't care.

Warren's stats come across as underwhelming. Only plays 53% of games. Ridiculously awful shooting stats. Only a 91.5 offensive rating. He doesn't get to the line much.

The best thing going for him is his assist rate (39.0%...10th best in the country). But Rob Lowry has a higher assist rate (40.4%), which makes me think that Warren's high rate might stem more from offensive design than sheer brilliance.

Edit: forgot to note his high steal rate.

I guess he's alright.

this is a fairer assessment then what others have presented, although you can say that TH played guess what? 53% of your games/min. TH will be, or should end up being, a better PG then what LW will ever be but going into next season one can make the argument that LW is better right now, as much as it might pain you to say it. Lyons we just don't know about right now...he could be D. Rose (highly unlikely) or another Odia (also highly unlikely).

[GuyFawkes38]

this is a fairer assessment then what others have presented, although you can say that TH played guess what? 53% of your games/min. TH will be, or should end up being, a better PG then what LW will ever be but going into next season one can make the argument that LW is better right now, as much as it might pain you to say it. Lyons we just don't know about right now...he could be D. Rose (highly unlikely) or another Odia (also highly unlikely).

true.

I never seem to get the opportunity to watch Dayton on TV (in all honesty, I bet Dayton fans are much more informed about X then the other way around due to X getting on TV more).

Just looking at the stats alone, Warren showed major improvement from the 2007 to 2008 seasons which is a good sign for this season.

[MuskiePimp23]

Do you really want me to respond to this? I'll give one or two sensible X fans to respond to this and tell you why this is such a BS theory: "London absolutely would not have those stats playing against a better schedule". In fact I'll give it one full day at least before I further respond to this high school statement.

Nevermind, I'll do it now...after 5 min of research it's easier then I thought. Now first, I'm not going to debate the SOS between X and UD, that's going on in a thread right below this one. BUT, I will take issue with your very weak argument as to why LW shouldn't be considered a Top 5 PG in the A10 (right there should be a clue to you.) You said, " London ABSOLUTELY WOULD NOT HAVE THOSE STATS playing against a better schedule." That is a weak weak argument. All of my points below build on each other....

One, I was really hoping I wouldn't have to bring up point one but you do realize that UD and X BOTH play in the A10 correct? That being the same conference? We are talking about the same A10 right. You don't think there is like an ACC 1B that X is a part of do you? There, we've established that for just about half of the games during the season, UD and X are playing a nearly identical schedule.

Two, and this kind of builds on point one. The article is talking about the Top 5 PG in THE A10 NEXT SEASON. We are not comparing full schedules, or PG in the ACC, or how badly DL schooled LW when he was a soph...this is all irrelevant.

Three, IF anyone is to accept the argument you threw out there, then this argument applies to every player in college, right? I mean if there's no way that LW would put up these stats against better competition then where does that leave Anderson of Richmond sitting in the A10? Let's look at last year's RPI/SOS for the Top 5 teams in the A10 by those numbers:

1. X 14/42 (clearly the class of the league)
2. UD 24/82
3. URI 50/105
4. Duq 112/117
5. Rich 124/125

So, let's use your argument. X can have the #1 PG in the league, but sadly for you, LW is actually 2 spots better and both TH and LW are better then Anderson. In fact there is a bigger SOS gap between UD and Rich then UD/X. But either way, now Anderson has slid to 5th, and Harris from Charlotte is no where to be found.

Fifth, let's look at non A10 teams...

Mighty Gonzaga 21/74
Butler 24/88
LSU 32/66
St.Mary's 45/129
Cleveland st (yes the vaunted Cleveland ST that you guys are dying to schedule) 55/102
Florida (yes, the SEC, two time champions) 56/81 (wow...a whole whopping 1 better then the pathetic Flyers)

Sixth, I was going to list team for team but the simpler way to do this is to break down the RPI between X and UD from last year:

X vs the RPI
1-50: Record 6-5
51-100: Record 5-1
101-200: Record 10-1
200+ : Record 6-1

UD vs. the RPI
1-50: Record 4-3
51-100: Record 5-2
101-200: 11-2
200+: Record 7-1

Now I will break down OOC. We had 3 common opponents in OOC. Auburn, Miami-OH, and Toledo. So scratch them off. Bad bad teams that X played (RPI over 150)...IUPUI and Ohio. Bad, bad teams that UD played...Wofford, Del St., Beth Cook, Mercer, Coppin St, and Marshall and UNC-Green. Next level for X (50-150): Va Tech, Cincy, Robert Morris, VA, and Portland St. (111) UD in that tier: Troy, Akron, George Mason, and West Virgina (77). Finally, X in the 1-50: Missouri, Memphis, Duke, Butler, Wisc (42), and Pitt (2). UD: Creighton (46), Marquette(30), and Kansas (11).

Now, clearly X played a tougher schedule then UD but you make it sound as if UD plays DII ball while X played ACC ball and that's absolutely not true. UD played the tougher conf schedule on top of that which is what should really matter when it come to ranking our A10 rankings. If you don't believe that UD played the tougher unbalanced schedule then please explain how we closed an 80 point gap in OOC play to only 40 by the time it was all said and done.

This was not meant to be inflammatory to most of the X fans on here but to show Pimp here that it was a totally ridiculous statement to say that LW wouldn't put up those stats (at least you acknowledged the stats this time) against better comp. He played against some of the best competition in the country including vs. the same conf that X plays in. Poor Anderson, he shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as LW or TH,

Bottom line...X and UD played 19 of the same teams then 2 more A10 teams each in the conf tourny. So 21 out of 35 games just right there were identical. Now if you throw out some of the similar bad teams coupled with some of the good teams you are using a sample size of about 5 or 6 games for your argument. 5 or 6 out of 35??!! That's your argument?

So, one I think you're wrong, and I have a hard time believing you watch hundreds of games a year. Take off the kool aid glasses and make a better argument. We can debate whether LW should or should not be considered a Top 5 PG in the league but your argument holds zero, nada, none.


Your incoherent argument has done nothing, but try and change the fact that London absolutely would NOT have his stats against better competition...Half of UD's competition is far inferior to Xaviers...Out of 15-16 non-conference games last year...UD played maybe 2-3 decent teams...Possibly Auburn and maybe either Miami (OH) and Creighton, as well as Marquette...Xavier's was far superior and London would not have done well against better competition...Your argument holds no merit and neither do the Cubs.

[jcubspoe]

Your incoherent argument has done nothing, but try and change the fact that London absolutely would NOT have his stats against better competition...Half of UD's competition is far inferior to Xaviers...Out of 15-16 non-conference games last year...UD played maybe 2-3 decent teams...Possibly Auburn and maybe either Miami (OH) and Creighton, as well as Marquette...Xavier's was far superior and London would not have done well against better competition...Your argument holds no merit and neither do the Cubs.

LOL...I guess I'm done with this thread too, considering your argument amounts to paragraph full of "my daddy can beat up your daddy" lines.

[XU 87]

Let's put it this way- I would bet that you would have a difficult time finding 5 Xavier fans who would want London Warren on our team. The guy is a point guard who can't shoot. He didn't make a three last year. Maybe you like having point guards who can't shoot. We don't.

There's a reason UD stole him from Jacksonville (the college not the NFL team).

[DC Muskie]

I'd take London Warren on the practice sqaud.

[BandAid]

I'd take Warren as a student manager - at least he could get the laundry done quick!

[DC Muskie]

London could help with our in-bound plays. Just have him throw a regular pass, then get the guys used to watching such moronic play and regain focus before resuming.